0:01

From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlyn

0:03

McGee. This is 7am. An

0:10

attack at a Western Sydney church

0:12

last week is inextricably linked to

0:14

social media. The bishop

0:16

who was attacked was a social media

0:19

celebrity. The stabbing itself was

0:21

live streamed and went global and

0:23

within minutes an angry mob had started

0:25

to surround the church. The

0:28

Australian government's so concerned it's picked a

0:30

fight with the global social media giants,

0:32

ordering them to pull down content about

0:35

the attack. Today,

0:37

counter-terrorism expert and low-institute fellow

0:39

Lydia Carlil on the attack

0:41

and how terrorism is changing.

0:47

It's Wednesday, April 24. How

0:49

did the attack happen? Lydia,

0:54

last week an attack on a church

0:56

in Western Sydney was declared an act

0:58

of terrorism. To begin with, can

1:01

you tell me a bit about the community

1:03

this attack happened in and what we know

1:05

about this church? Sure. Well,

1:07

the attack happened at an Assyrian church.

1:10

That particular church and the bishop that

1:12

was leading that church, Bishop

1:14

Marmari, was actually a

1:16

breakaway faction from the mainstream

1:19

Assyrian Orthodox community. The beloved one

1:21

God, Amen. Our

1:24

beloved fathers, deacons, nuns... The

1:26

important thing to know is that in recent

1:28

years, the Assyrian community

1:30

had been targeted by violent jihadist

1:33

actors in the Middle East, particularly

1:35

the Islamic State. Now,

1:37

many of the people that belong to that

1:39

church and the Assyrian community more broadly in

1:41

Australia come from that background. Many

1:44

of them are recent migrants that have

1:46

migrated to Australia after

1:48

that experience with the Islamic State and

1:51

that experience of persecution. Islam came in

1:53

635 AD. The

1:56

Gospel of John was written around 100 AD. He

2:02

was excommunicated from the church or

2:04

chose to leave depending on different

2:06

accounts. And he started his

2:08

own church community that brought together many

2:10

of the beliefs of mainstream

2:13

Assyrian Orthodox community. But he

2:15

differed in both his approach and

2:18

in certain things that he tended

2:20

to emphasize both politically and religiously.

2:23

And he was very proud of

2:25

his own

2:30

His own is from the enemy. Illuminati

2:33

is from the enemy. In terms

2:35

of where he sat politically, talk to me about some of those things. He's

2:39

a little bit controversial in some ways, I

2:41

guess. Yeah, that's been a label that's been

2:43

thrown at him. I don't think he's particularly

2:45

controversial in terms of

2:48

his doctrine, in terms of his Christian

2:50

teachings. It's controversial in

2:52

terms of some of the ways that

2:54

he has intersected religion and politics. There

2:56

is no one government on the face

2:59

of this planet that has

3:01

the right to impose

3:04

a certain lifestyle on people. And

3:07

he has delivered

3:09

many messages through various forums and his

3:11

sermons and online where he has actually

3:13

quite a massive following. This is where

3:15

he came to prominence, really. And his influence

3:18

started to grow outside of the Assyrian

3:20

community. But through these various

3:22

platforms, he talked about Trump

3:24

being the savior of a Christian America.

3:27

If you don't have Trump, you

3:29

can kiss your country goodbye. The

3:33

next superpower is coming. He will

3:35

destroy you. He also

3:37

poured a lot of conspiratorial

3:40

narratives, particularly around the pandemic.

3:43

And that's, again, where his popularity had grown.

3:45

Statistics say that those who have received

3:48

the vaccine, the death rates out of

3:50

those who were vaccinated were more than

3:52

the ones who died because

3:54

of the coronavirus. And So there

3:56

were other individuals who believed in those type of

3:58

conspiracy theories. If you

4:01

aren't necessarily from the Assyrian community

4:03

or Christian communities that started to

4:05

follow him and pay attention to

4:07

what he was saying because he

4:09

infused that religious and political infused

4:12

religion and conspiracy theories and away

4:14

one of the very interesting things

4:16

about him in a statistic that

4:18

I learned very recently with he

4:21

is actually the most popular. Religious.

4:23

Figure on tic Toc so that goes

4:26

to show you the extent of his

4:28

visibility and his popularity to his use

4:30

of social media. And so

4:32

when it comes to understanding exactly what happens

4:35

on the not of the attack, what do

4:37

we know? So. We know that

4:39

the they ship conducting a church service

4:41

and that church service was live streamed.

4:44

The alleged attacker obviously knew about this

4:47

sell at this was an opportunity to

4:49

attack that they ship and we know

4:51

that around that evening around seven pm

4:53

during the mask the alleged to have

4:56

to came in stabbed the said he

4:58

was attempted to be restrained by parishioners

5:00

and then we also have come. To

5:02

see some footage that many other

5:05

people gathered around the search outside

5:07

of the church and Nasri. Riot

5:13

and. He.

5:18

Would have a wide variety of. People

5:20

that were on the scene from

5:22

what we could see around social

5:24

media footage. That was spread around. people

5:26

that belong to the community that were

5:29

concerned about relatives and friends that were

5:31

at the church came through a clue.

5:33

The other folks that were there who

5:35

were not quite sure what the connection

5:37

was to that. Of

5:40

various Middle Eastern and also Orthodox

5:42

Christian background as well ah who

5:44

were there who are responding to

5:46

an alleged attack on the At

5:48

Church and an alleged attack on

5:50

the Bishops and a way that

5:52

they perceived to be was an

5:54

attack on. Their communities. And their

5:56

face and so they were responding in a

5:58

both out of can. About what was

6:01

immediately happening in that church. But also

6:03

this broader feeling that they had that

6:05

their communities in their religion. It's

6:12

incredible how quickly it O'connor's happens

6:14

good. At this stage, the alleged

6:17

attacker is still inside the church

6:19

rohit blessing because the attack was

6:21

live streamed. People. Were aware of

6:23

it. True that, and I think that they

6:25

were years from what we've seen and what

6:28

we've heard, that it. Was spread very

6:30

quickly through communications platforms and.

6:32

Social media that people became aware of

6:34

it and then decided to to come

6:36

down and to galvanize. And and

6:38

mobilize. Twitter. Or exes up

6:41

a platform where a lot of the

6:43

footage. Was being shared possibly

6:45

other types of communication platforms

6:47

like of encrypted messaging. Platform

6:49

and also platforms like picked up

6:51

as well so it played out

6:54

on social media and in real

6:56

time at the same time. We

6:58

also saw that there were a

7:00

number of kind of all media

7:02

type folks are citizen journalists who

7:04

word. Taking live footage and

7:06

commentary. Outside of the church at the time.

7:10

On my. Cellphone.

7:15

So what we saw was that a

7:17

wide variety of actors. From around the

7:19

world. Taking footage, hiding

7:21

it, and splicing it's i'm

7:24

making other media around it.

7:26

It means other videos adding

7:28

commentary in a way that.

7:30

Basically. Promoted whatever narrative her message

7:32

that they were putting out. So here

7:35

is. Again, A Muslim

7:37

immigrant? this is coming from

7:39

acts. And was in in

7:41

in many of those cases it was

7:43

a message of christianity is being a

7:46

tax conservative. People are being attacked the

7:48

using it to vilify the Muslim. communities

7:50

i'm putting narrative out there

7:53

about the motivations is the

7:55

attacker before the authorities made

7:57

it's a determinations and so

8:00

away for people with their own agenda and

8:02

narrative using that and

8:05

manipulating particular images in

8:07

order to put their own narratives out there. So

8:11

we're still in the moment. We're in the

8:13

heat of the moment. All of this is

8:15

happening and then a couple of hours later,

8:17

I think it's quarter to two in the

8:19

morning, there is this pretty extraordinary announcement that

8:22

comes out. Talk me through what was announced

8:24

and how that was framed. Right.

8:26

So one of the things that very quickly happened

8:28

was a very quick

8:31

determination by the authorities that they're

8:33

saying that this attack was motivated by a religious

8:35

ideology and labeled this as an act

8:37

of terrorism. I

8:40

think there was a couple of things that motivated

8:43

or drew that relatively

8:46

swift determination. After

8:51

the break, in a week with two major

8:53

stabbings, what made one a terrorist attack and

8:55

the other not? As

9:02

a 7am listener, you value the story

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9:45

Ready to go? Good morning, everyone. Thank you for

9:47

being here. Overnight,

9:49

police charged a 16-year-old boy with

9:51

a terrorism offence as a result

9:53

of the alleged stabbing at a

9:56

Sydney church on Monday evening. Lydia,

9:59

Sydney and... really the whole country

10:01

have been rocked by these two stabbing attacks.

10:03

The other one, of course, being the

10:05

one at the Bondi Junction Shopping Center.

10:07

Police have used very different language when

10:10

discussing them both, one terrorism, one not.

10:12

Why is that? It

10:15

basically comes down to illegal

10:17

determination behind the motive of

10:19

the different attacks. So

10:21

both attacks were quite shocking.

10:23

They were confronting. They were

10:25

violent. They were both alleged

10:27

crimes. They both seriously

10:29

impacted the community and both

10:32

terrorized, for lack of a better word,

10:34

the community. But that doesn't mean

10:37

that both of them are legally the

10:39

same type of crime. So the thing

10:41

that determines a crime

10:43

being terrorism or labeled as such by

10:46

the authorities goes back to the legal definition of

10:49

what a terrorist crime is.

10:51

And it's based on motivation. So

10:54

it has to be motivated by

10:56

a religious or political or ideological

10:59

goal. And the authorities alleged that

11:01

they had clear evidence that one

11:03

was motivated by a

11:06

religious motivation and the other

11:08

one wasn't, which was why the difference in terms

11:10

of the language that was used. So

11:12

if you look at, say, the Bondi Junction

11:14

attack, when you've got police saying that he

11:17

focused on women and avoided men, in terms

11:20

of the motivation that fits within

11:22

infill ideology. It's obvious to me,

11:24

it's obvious to detectives that that

11:27

seems to be an area of

11:29

interest that the offender had focused on women and

11:31

avoided the men. So why

11:34

rule out or why have they ruled

11:36

out terrorism in that sense? It doesn't

11:39

necessarily by itself that he

11:41

attacked women, fit inside an infill ideology.

11:47

There could be many reasons why

11:50

he targeted women in his attack.

11:53

Perhaps he had personal grievances. Perhaps

11:55

that he felt like women were made

11:58

easier targets because they would. wouldn't be

12:00

able to have the physical strength to fight back

12:03

that a male would. We

12:05

don't know what motivated

12:07

him because he was killed

12:10

immediately after in that stabbing in order to

12:12

stop it. And there

12:15

hasn't been any evidence unearthed that

12:17

he was engaged in any type of

12:20

incel ideology or

12:22

extreme misogynistic ideology.

12:24

The fact remains that violence against women

12:27

is a national scourge and

12:29

is one thing that we see all

12:31

too much of. And it makes it

12:33

no less serious. But

12:35

not all of the violence against women that we

12:37

see is related to a

12:40

political or ideological form. And

12:43

just because that's the case doesn't make it

12:45

any less serious. It just means

12:47

it doesn't meet the legal definition of terrorism. In

12:50

terms of the definition, what does it actually

12:52

change when it's declared an act of terrorism?

12:56

Well, it brings a few more resources

12:58

to bear in terms of the

13:00

law enforcement response. So oftentimes it

13:02

will go toward a specialist unit

13:04

for investigation that have particular skills.

13:07

It gives police perhaps some

13:09

additional powers in terms of

13:11

detention or investigation. And

13:14

it also has potential implications

13:17

in terms of if a person

13:19

is convicted, they're sentencing.

13:22

But it doesn't necessarily mean one

13:25

is more outrageous

13:27

or terrible or impactful than

13:30

the other. It

13:32

just means that we understand that there's different

13:34

motivations behind it. And

13:36

so finally, Lydia, when you think about

13:39

terrorism in Australia and how authorities are

13:41

responding to it, how are

13:44

we doing when it comes to identifying

13:46

and preventing all kinds of radicalisation? And

13:48

in particular, how are we

13:50

doing when it comes to working with these social media

13:52

giants where so much of this content

13:55

is spreading? I

13:57

think that since the initial days of the war, I think that's a

13:59

very important thing. of the September 11th attacks

14:01

when a lot of our counterterrorism architecture

14:04

and framework came to pass about 20

14:06

years ago. We've learned

14:08

so much since then. The approach

14:11

has shifted a lot

14:13

in terms of our ability to

14:16

intercept plots, to prosecute

14:18

individuals, but more importantly to intervene

14:20

and to prevent, which is what we

14:22

want to do. But we're challenged

14:24

in many more ways now. The

14:28

motivations behind terrorism acts are

14:30

getting increasingly complicated. We

14:32

are seeing more presentations of people with

14:34

mental illness getting involved in

14:37

terrorist crimes. We're

14:39

certainly seeing a lot more violent

14:42

extremism connected to

14:44

conspiratorial beliefs, a

14:47

lot of anti-government sovereign

14:49

citizen, anti-authority type

14:51

of violent extremism where

14:54

the ideology is mixed,

14:56

fluent, not necessarily coherent.

14:59

We're also seeing more

15:01

far right and right-wing

15:03

extremism, and we still

15:06

have the persistence of violent

15:08

jihadist extremism as well. And

15:14

when it comes to social media and other

15:16

communications technologies, there is a consensus

15:18

that their impacts when it comes to violent

15:20

extremism that they put forward a lot of

15:22

negative impacts in that space. When

15:25

Musk bought Twitter and rebranded

15:28

it into X, along the way he made

15:30

a big song

15:32

and dance about how there needs to be more

15:35

freedom of speech, that social

15:38

media platforms were too engaged in

15:40

content moderation. And so what had

15:42

happened was a lot of people

15:44

who were originally deplatformed for either having

15:47

harmful or extremist views were allowed back

15:49

on. That platform has become

15:51

under increasing scrutiny, and we spoke

15:54

earlier about how the livestream footage

15:56

of the alleged attack at the church was

15:59

harmful. that performance circulating from

16:07

the same time we have to think about well how can we harness

16:09

these technologies as well to help us in our prevention and intervention efforts.

16:16

Lydia, thank you so much for your time today.

16:18

Thanks for that. Bye. Join

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palacesinamas.com.au to learn more. Also

16:50

in the news today, the number of people

16:52

in prison in Australia is growing according to

16:54

the latest report from the Bureau of Statistics.

16:58

In the years of June 2023, the number

17:00

of people locked up grew by more than

17:02

a thousand to about 42,000. The

17:06

report also revealed a jump in the portion

17:08

of the prison population that's Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander.

17:12

They now make up about a third of all

17:14

prisoners. And court documents released

17:16

yesterday show that Channel 10 offered

17:18

to settle with Bruce Lemon before

17:20

the defamation trials. The

17:23

settlement would have involved no payment or apology but

17:25

would have allowed Lerman to walk away from the

17:27

suit. Instead,

17:29

having lost Lerman may now have to

17:31

pay 10 legal costs, estimated at up

17:34

to $8 million. I'm

17:37

Ashlyn Magee. This is 7am. Thanks

17:39

for listening. I'll see you tomorrow. Thank

17:52

you.