2:00

Ever back,

2:02

we live in

2:02

funny. hater said we couldn't do

2:08

it. But I did or we are every

2:08

week. My name is Brandon

2:12

Minnick. Thanks so much for

2:12

joining us on eight bits this

2:14

week. We are graced again by the

2:14

amazing PJ Mets PJ thanks for

2:20

jumping into co host this week.

2:20

Well close out today.

2:23

That's right. I'm happy

2:23

to come here anytime. Whether

2:27

it's his guest or co hosts,

2:27

maybe one time I'll do it by

2:31

myself, but like no guests, it's

2:31

just me talking,

2:34

whatever

2:35

I want for an hour or

2:35

so. And it you know, that's what

2:38

the people want really is a guy

2:38

who's got one month of

2:42

experience in the tech industry

2:42

talking about whatever pops on

2:45

his head.

2:46

That's right.

2:46

And yeah, if anybody missed it,

2:49

two weeks ago, PJ was also on

2:49

the show. And essentially

2:55

celebrating his new job at Git

2:55

lab. So first, congrats PJ. But

3:00

also, if you missed the episode,

3:00

check out our website, eight

3:04

bits.tv download the episode

3:04

listen to the podcast, because

3:08

it was so good hearing from you.

3:08

And Laredo is also on it. Well,

3:13

yeah. Also former guests. So I

3:13

love to see the the eight bits.

3:20

Marvel Universe, I guess.

3:23

The lore of it all.

3:25

That's right.

3:25

It's so awesome to see folks

3:28

from non traditional backgrounds

3:28

getting their first job in the

3:32

tech, super proud of you. But

3:32

other than that, how have you

3:37

been?

3:38

doing my best I got a I

3:38

got a tattoo. Two weeks ago ish.

3:44

I forget when I got this tattoo,

3:44

but I got a cute little Gator

3:48

from a great tattoo artist in

3:48

Tampa. And what was great is I

3:52

actually now that I have a job

3:52

that lets me do the work I need

3:56

to do on sort of my own hours. I

3:56

was like, Hey, I'm gonna be out

4:00

of the office this afternoon.

4:00

I'm getting a tattoo. My manager

4:04

is like, cool. Have fun, bye.

4:04

And it was like, I couldn't do

4:09

that. As a teacher I like I have

4:09

to have a good reason. And I

4:12

have to be though these hours

4:12

and there's a reason school so

4:16

structured. But for me, this is

4:16

a It's a whole new life really

4:20

this whole working from home and

4:20

I've got like a stand up desk

4:24

and everything like there's my

4:24

mom. I think it actually it

4:31

almost flew up as I released the

4:31

handles on it. So I won't be

4:34

doing that again.

4:37

So I do have

4:37

will say we'll call them a

4:41

couple announcements. But really

4:41

it's one big announcement before

4:44

we introduce our amazing guests

4:44

today. And what I want to share

4:48

with everybody in case you

4:48

missed it. There was a huge

4:52

Microsoft conference last week

4:52

called Microsoft build and

4:57

everything was recorded. So all

4:57

those live streams, if you

5:01

missed them, don't worry, you

5:01

can actually go to my build dot

5:04

Microsoft comm and catch up on

5:04

all the announcements. And for,

5:11

for me, I'm I'm a dotnet

5:11

developer, I make mobile apps

5:15

for iOS and Android using

5:15

Xamarin. All in C sharp. My

5:20

biggest, biggest, biggest I

5:20

guess thing I'm looking forward

5:24

to biggest announcement favorite

5:24

announcement was dotnet. Hot

5:30

reload.

5:30

So hot reload looks

5:30

good. It really does.

5:35

Right? And

5:35

yeah, TJ, I know he can, he can

5:38

sympathize as a ASP dotnet

5:38

Website Builder. But yeah, so

5:44

now for all of us dotnet

5:44

developers, the time has finally

5:48

come where we don't have to

5:48

recompile our entire code base

5:52

anymore, just to see what's

5:52

changed. dotnet hot reload will

5:57

allow us to essentially just

5:57

save the file. There's even a

6:01

little fire icon in Visual

6:01

Studio now you can click,

6:06

that'll just reload your app. So

6:06

if you're working on a website,

6:09

if you're working on a mobile

6:09

app, and you've made a couple

6:11

changes, because while you fix

6:11

the bug, right, you want to make

6:14

sure if you fix it properly, or

6:14

maybe you're you're like me, and

6:18

you do all your UI and C sharp

6:18

instead of zamel or crazy

6:23

languages like those, well, then

6:23

you can just reload it. And I'm

6:27

I can't wait. So it's available

6:27

today, you can download the

6:30

preview of Visual Studio on PC

6:30

and play around with it. As soon

6:36

as you can. It's gonna save. I

6:36

know, hours, if not days, if not

6:40

years of my life, just waiting

6:40

for compiles compilations to

6:44

finish.

6:45

Imagine the teams that

6:45

this is gonna affect, you know,

6:48

the people going oh my gosh,

6:48

finally.

6:51

I know not now

6:51

I have to figure out how to

6:53

like, you know, take my coffee

6:53

breaks when to go. before I'd be

7:00

like, Okay, well, I just made

7:00

that change. Let me go ahead and

7:02

click Build. And then. Okay,

7:02

that's gonna take a minute. So

7:06

let me grab a drink. Yeah.

7:06

That's right. So, yeah, we just

7:12

won't tell our managers and

7:12

they'll see

7:15

our eiling.

7:16

So they'll see

7:16

our throughput just go through

7:19

the roof. They'll think we're

7:19

the best, most amazing

7:21

developers in the world. And

7:21

it's all just thanks to dotnet

7:25

hot reload. And I love this even

7:25

axios in the comments is saying,

7:30

Go in Maui. I don't know. If you

7:30

if you notice matters, but I do

7:37

have a new hat on. And it's kind

7:37

of tough to see. But I saw this

7:42

in the Microsoft Store. It's a

7:42

Microsoft hat. But it kind of

7:45

looks like the sunset and

7:45

reminds me of the new dotnet

7:49

Maui logo. So as soon as I saw

7:49

it, I said I got to have it.

7:54

That's that's done at Maui if

7:54

I've ever seen it, and the

7:57

carpet. I'll also be going Maui

7:57

gnaeus

8:01

Yeah, all the all that

8:01

build stuff, by the way is also

8:04

on YouTube very conveniently

8:04

chopped up into sections. I

8:07

subscribe to the Microsoft

8:07

developer YouTube channel. And

8:11

my subscription page on YouTube

8:11

is basically full of build

8:14

videos. Because they they were

8:14

great about first off like

8:19

putting it into like the manageable pieces. And then they like an upload. So it's all

8:21

there as well. So you can check

8:24

it out there.

8:26

Love it. Well

8:26

see PJ any, any announcements

8:30

from your side? Before we

8:30

introduce our guests?

8:33

No, I mean, I'm just

8:33

excited to be working like Git

8:37

labs doing a lot of great stuff

8:37

where we're doing, we're

8:40

releasing Git lab 14 this month,

8:40

version 14. pretty stoked.

8:47

Amazing. Make

8:47

sure yeah, make sure you go

8:49

check it out. But with that, we

8:49

have a really cool guest all

8:54

sorts of topics we'll be talking

8:54

about today. But our guest

8:59

today, he's is one of my

8:59

favorite people. He's somebody I

9:02

met when we used to work in

9:02

Xamarin together, but can't wait

9:07

to share his story because he's

9:07

actually been in mobile since

9:10

the beginning. So without

9:10

further ado, let's introduce,

9:14

then, welcome to the show. Great

9:14

to be here. Oh, Ben. So before

9:23

we get going, if for all of our

9:23

American viewers, your last name

9:28

might look familiar. Let's give

9:28

them a quick explanation. And

9:33

also probably let them know

9:33

there's no relation. No.

9:38

I can confirm

9:38

there is no relation. And yeah,

9:42

if I don't pronounce my name the

9:42

same as him. So it's not

9:46

pronounced Buddha judge. At

9:46

least I haven't been asked that

9:49

that way for the for the last 43

9:49

years. But I did discover last

9:54

year or the year before when I

9:54

was traveling to Malta where the

9:58

name originates that I've been

9:58

pronouncing it wrong my entire

10:01

life. So it was actually it's

10:01

actually pronounced according to

10:05

the Maltese buttigieg. But,

10:05

yeah, after a lifetime of

10:13

pronouncing it, but the G I'll

10:13

stick with it. But it's fine,

10:18

too. It's too late to

10:18

change. Really? Yeah.

10:22

When it's your

10:22

last name so Can Can you really

10:25

pronounce your own last name wrong?

10:29

I guess. Other people

10:29

can. You can't pronounce your

10:33

last name wrong.

10:34

Um, I was literally corrected at passport control. To the gate basil.

10:35

Literally told me no, it's

10:41

buttigieg.

10:44

Okay, I love

10:44

it. Yeah. So Ben, for the for

10:49

the people out there watching

10:49

listening on the podcast. Tell

10:53

us a little bit about yourself.

10:53

Who are you? And what do you do?

10:57

Yeah. So I'm a

10:57

senior software engineer on the

11:02

modern apps. Customer advisory

11:02

team. I think I pronounce that

11:07

right. Because the name, the

11:07

team name has changed several

11:09

times used to be just called the

11:09

mob cat team. But yeah, what we

11:14

do is we support big name

11:14

customers, we help them write

11:19

mobile apps. Obviously, that's

11:19

my background. So I've got a lot

11:23

of experience. And so I help

11:23

enterprises develop, you know,

11:30

high quality apps that they can

11:30

publish to the store. And yeah,

11:34

be successful working with Azure

11:34

and other Microsoft

11:37

technologies.

11:39

Yeah, that's

11:39

great. And I know we've also had

11:43

some of your teammates on the

11:43

show, right. Ricky? And Alex,

11:48

Alex Blount. Sophie, we're

11:48

slowly making our way to the

11:52

team, you'll have to send send

11:52

some more folks our way because

11:55

we love you. The team's awesome.

11:55

And but anybody yet, for all

12:01

everybody out there, feel free

12:01

to go check out those shows as

12:03

well. But then let's let's go

12:03

way back. So today, Ben's a

12:10

senior engineer at Microsoft.

12:10

How did we get started?

12:15

Yes, well, we are

12:15

going way back for me. Yeah, I

12:20

mean, I guess it starts with my

12:20

first computer. When I was about

12:26

nine or 10. I was kind of

12:26

disappointed. I really wanted a

12:29

Hornby railway set. I don't know

12:29

is that a thing in the US? Are

12:36

you familiar with Home

12:37

Warranty? railway?

12:37

Nice. That's like a model train.

12:42

Yeah, it's like

12:42

model train, sir. Yeah, like

12:45

I've done or something grade

12:45

set. But yeah, it was. I saw on

12:49

a TV advert and that was what I thought I was getting for Christmas. And anyway, I ended

12:51

up getting an Amiga 500, which I

12:56

absolutely loved. And to be

12:56

honest with that, that got me

12:59

hooked on coding from then. So I

12:59

used to get this magazine called

13:03

Amiga format, and would try

13:03

coding with it that have these

13:09

long scripts of code that you'd

13:09

have to write and you'd get the

13:15

pixel art game, but just be the

13:15

suckiest game ever. But you'd

13:19

made it and it was like, wow,

13:19

and I wonder what happens if I

13:22

change this line and you make

13:22

him jump higher and that kind of

13:25

thing. So yeah, it was like,

13:25

wow, this is super cool. So

13:29

yeah, that got me hooked on, on

13:29

computing. And yeah, I loved the

13:33

Amiga. It's like for anyone

13:33

who's chose had one that were

13:39

amazing. The graphics were like

13:39

the other time. They even use it

13:43

for films, in fact, like the the

13:43

Amiga 4000. They actually use it

13:48

to make Babylon five, and we're

13:48

going back too far for you guys.

13:52

Have you heard about one to five

13:52

years, so that was made on an

13:56

Amiga using the Video Toaster?

13:56

And yeah, so I was fortunate

14:03

enough to get some work

14:03

experience. A few years later, I

14:09

was still at school, working for

14:09

one of the Amiga offices, which

14:15

happens to be set up just down

14:15

the road from my hometown in

14:19

North Wales. So yeah, that was

14:19

kind of crazy because I loved

14:25

the Amiga and thought that would

14:25

be my dream job and you have two

14:30

amazing mathematize got amigas

14:33

and on Don't mind me,

14:33

I'm looking at pictures of Amiga

14:36

4000s. Right.

14:39

I'm loving

14:39

amazing tech. Yeah, yeah. So it

14:42

was awesome tech. And yeah, they

14:42

just happened to have an office

14:45

there. So that was my first job.

14:45

And this is what it means to do

14:49

this. And especially 3d that was

14:49

always my passion from then

14:52

playing around with an app

14:52

called Lightwave. 3d. Yeah, love

14:57

that. And from there Obviously,

14:57

I went to university, studying

15:03

computer science and philosophy.

15:03

Because as you do yeah, I'm not.

15:12

I love the absolute answers that

15:12

you get out of computer science.

15:19

stuff, build.

15:22

A demo inspired by the

15:22

old retro style of Amiga demos

15:26

is a comment from the chat

15:26

fuels, navel gazing. Is that old

15:33

tech?

15:34

Yeah, that the

15:34

demo scene was huge. Back in the

15:37

day, that was all the rage where

15:37

people make these animated

15:41

select Super screensavers with

15:41

amazing music. And yeah, that

15:45

was super cool. So yeah, so

15:45

that's how it started out. I

15:50

just loved the Amiga. And yeah,

15:50

and then wanted to get an

15:56

education in it, but was super

15:56

super also interested in

15:59

philosophy and the meaning of

15:59

life and love Douglas Adams, and

16:03

that kind of thing. So that made

16:03

me think I need to try and

16:05

understand this kind of thing as well. So yeah,

16:08

I love the idea that

16:08

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the

16:10

Galaxy is what pushed you into

16:10

philosophy?

16:13

Yeah. I was

16:13

obsessed with that book. I

16:16

absolutely loved it. And yeah,

16:16

that my

16:18

two never got the hang

16:18

of Thursdays. Always take my

16:23

towel with me as well. That's

16:23

right. Yeah. You said something

16:30

about how just changing a one

16:30

line of code makes the guy jump

16:34

higher. And seeing that, that

16:34

changing something here makes a

16:37

change over here, and how that

16:37

that really sparks something for

16:40

you. I think that's true for a

16:40

lot of people who get into

16:43

coding and development, no

16:43

matter what age they start at

16:47

realizing that you can create a

16:47

thing right here. It's amazing.

16:52

When I when I Brandon remembers

16:52

when I was first writing code

16:55

only a year ago, I was like, Oh

16:55

my god, I just found out what a

16:58

method is. And like you, there's

16:58

parameters, and Brian was like,

17:02

Yeah, dude, it's pretty neat,

17:02

right? And I was like, anyway, I

17:04

gotta go, I'm gonna go type some

17:04

more, and you get very excited

17:08

in a creative way. But there's

17:08

the the exactitude of it as well

17:13

as very exciting.

17:15

Definitely, yeah.

17:15

Yeah, I definitely got the bug

17:19

from seeing that. The immediate

17:19

immediacy of your changes. And

17:25

yeah, and that's just gone on

17:25

throughout the years. Yeah. I've

17:28

always loved that.

17:30

Yeah. And so

17:30

eventually, Ben, you, you

17:34

entered the mobile world now. I,

17:34

I've been a mobile developer for

17:39

what feels like a lifetime. But

17:39

really, it's only since about

17:42

2015. But your story goes even

17:42

farther back. What did you get

17:49

into the mobile space?

17:51

Yeah, so I guess,

17:51

after university the first job I

17:56

had was working for Motorola. So

17:56

you may have heard of those guys

18:02

that don't have as many of their

18:02

phones still around these days?

18:06

I think they

18:07

did. They just

18:07

rerelease a razor? Like a new

18:09

version of the razor? The razor?

18:09

That's right. No, that was the

18:13

jam. That's the first time I saw

18:13

Bluetooth logo was on a razor.

18:18

Wow.

18:19

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

18:19

So I had one of those. The other

18:21

time the V dot, I think it was

18:21

called The reason dot. But I

18:26

didn't actually work on the

18:26

phones at that time, to be

18:28

honest with you, I was working

18:28

on the mapping application using

18:34

a technology called calm, which

18:34

I don't know if you guys are

18:37

familiar with that. It was calm.

18:37

Yeah. So that's, I can't know.

18:43

But it's that common components,

18:43

object model, something like

18:48

that. It basically allows you to

18:48

modularize your architecture. So

18:54

a lot of Windows apps were based

18:54

on comet 20 years ago. And it

19:01

just allowed you to have these

19:01

binary objects. So it's the pre

19:05

version of dotnet. Basically, it

19:05

was before dotnet came up.

19:10

And I'm sorry

19:10

to interrupt, but I remember

19:14

back in the day, any USB or comm

19:14

ports everywhere, like anytime I

19:18

would plug something into the

19:18

computer, it'd be a comm port or

19:22

a really it was like calm

19:22

errors. You'd have to figure out

19:26

why your keyboard wasn't

19:26

working. Is that is that the

19:29

same calm? No.

19:35

No, nothing to do

19:35

with it. It's Yeah, it's just

19:39

yeah, that's just down to calm,

19:39

calm ports as in the

19:43

connectivity, communication, but

19:43

uh, yeah. Yeah, completely

19:49

different. But I just noticed in

19:49

the chat, someone noticed that

19:52

Amiga, though the CPU in an

19:52

Amiga was the Motorola. Oh, wow.

19:58

68 Yeah, the 68 1000 series so

19:58

yeah, there's they're all

20:01

combined you see my my history,

20:01

there's a lot of interconnecting

20:05

bits and yeah the Motorola 68

20:05

ECM 20. And this is get up to

20:09

40. There we go. I'm going down

20:09

a bit of rubbish. But

20:14

so I looked up the

20:14

specs on that it had a 32 bits

20:18

CPU 16 bit data bus up to 20

20:18

megahertz, 16 megabytes of RAM,

20:26

and zero IO ports. It had no i o

20:26

port. Hmm. And,

20:33

yeah, that was

20:33

amazing, though. Yeah. And the

20:37

Amiga had 512k of RAM. And I

20:37

actually was super excited to

20:42

get the half Meg upgrade to get

20:42

a four megabyte. Big news. Yeah.

20:51

And now chrome

20:51

within the dream alone uses six

20:54

gigabytes of RAM. So that's

20:54

right. There we are. Yeah, I

20:58

will say it's funny how, yeah,

20:58

back in the day, when, when

21:02

space, Ram hard drive space was

21:02

very, very limited. You had to

21:08

get to really fine tune all of

21:08

your programs. And I mean,

21:12

that's more analogous to kind of

21:12

sea level programming or even

21:17

assembly level where you're,

21:17

you're just eking out every bit

21:20

of performance. And now it's

21:20

like, Yeah, well, so what if our

21:24

app uses a gig of ram?

21:26

That's fine. space for

21:26

it? Do you seen the story about

21:30

the video game developers think

21:30

it was Crash Bandicoot, who

21:34

basically hijacked the

21:34

PlayStation system to get more

21:38

memory out of other chips inside

21:38

of it? And that's the only way

21:42

that Crash Bandicoot was able to

21:42

run? No way. Oh,

21:45

yeah. That's

21:45

that's incredible story.

21:47

Because, yeah, was it something

21:47

like, everybody was just blown

21:52

away by how good the graphics

21:52

were. They couldn't figure out

21:55

how the team did it. And turns

21:55

out, yeah, jack is hacked into

22:00

restricted spaces.

22:05

Yeah, I mean, to

22:05

be fair, Game Dev is still

22:07

always trying to eke out every

22:07

last bit of the processes and

22:10

the CPUs and the GPUs. So yeah,

22:10

that yeah, that has not changed

22:14

for game devs. Those guys,

22:17

it's rough out there.

22:17

Yeah. Listen, I gotta have my

22:21

upscaled Horizon Zero Dawn for

22:21

the PS five. Thank you very

22:26

much. I need to be able to see

22:26

those dinosaurs in beautiful

22:30

millions and millions of bits.

22:30

Thank you.

22:35

Yeah, definitely.

22:35

I mean, the cyberpunk guys had

22:38

their work cut out and

22:40

yeah, didn't go well.

22:47

cyberpunk got past it

22:47

like Hell, yeah. Yeah. Like a

22:52

sinking ship, like throwing

22:52

buckets of water out while like

22:56

nailing stuff to the wall. And

22:56

they're like, here's another

22:58

patch go. It's like fast

22:58

iterations on it. And

23:01

apparently, it's playable. Now.

23:01

It's good now. And it's it was

23:05

always a great story and

23:05

exciting world. But now you can

23:09

actually play it. You don't have

23:09

to worry about like, t posing

23:12

random characters or like

23:12

clipping your car through the

23:14

concrete and falling in empty

23:14

space. So

23:17

you don't have to

23:17

get a three grand 38 3080.

23:21

That's right. Yeah, scalped

23:21

graphics. Yeah.

23:29

And so sorry

23:29

about that. Yeah. So you were

23:35

where were we were we still at

23:35

Motorola?

23:37

Motorola? Yeah,

23:37

of course. Yeah. Yes. So yes, I

23:41

was working on common doing GIS

23:41

mapping basically, for the base

23:47

station. So the network's you

23:47

know, cell networks, or that

23:51

they had to have to calculate

23:51

the best position for placing

23:55

these, you know, the antenna

23:55

based off obstacles. And you

24:00

know, that they used to use this

24:00

mapping technology called

24:04

detailed, so digital terrain

24:04

elevation data, which would be

24:07

like, meter accurate elevation

24:07

data for territories and

24:14

regions, and so they could

24:14

exactly work out what the

24:17

interference is going to be

24:17

based off, you know, where's

24:19

that best point to place? Your

24:19

antenna and your base station,

24:24

so yeah, so that's what I worked

24:24

on for for a while. And then I

24:29

but my interest was always in

24:29

mobile and client side

24:33

development. So from there, I

24:33

moved to Nokia, so and spent

24:41

worked in my local town called

24:41

Bristol, down in the southwest

24:47

that if you've heard of Bristol,

24:47

so yeah, that were there. Nakia

24:53

purchased a company called od

24:53

two, which is a music company

24:58

that I joined and they was set

24:58

up by Peter Gabriel for people.

25:04

Peter Gabriel Sorry, go ahead.

25:08

Yeah, so he set

25:08

up this company. So they did

25:14

music streaming basically for

25:14

they would like the one of the

25:17

earliest music streaming

25:17

companies. So they did streaming

25:20

for like Coca Cola big brands

25:20

who would want to have provide

25:23

music streaming services, they

25:23

would provide the service so

25:28

they could say on Coca Cola,

25:28

music, and it'd be provided by

25:33

od to the company. I joined. And

25:33

that company then got acquired

25:38

by Nakia, who I worked for the

25:38

next 10 years working on various

25:44

music clients initially working

25:44

on WTF desktop client. So if you

25:49

had the the Nakia, any of the

25:49

earlier Nakia devices, then 95

25:54

of them all the they had lots of

25:54

they had a feature called comes

25:57

with music where you could you

25:57

got your phone, and you'd get

26:01

unlimited music with that phone,

26:01

which at the time was amazing.

26:05

Like what free music you know,

26:05

Napster because it's trying to

26:09

compete against Napster and all

26:09

that kind of stuff. So. So

26:12

that's so yeah, I worked on the

26:12

WTF desktop app for that. And

26:16

then eventually, we moved on to

26:16

actually writing the client side

26:20

apps, which were for Windows

26:20

Phone, so Windows Mobile,

26:26

rather. So Silverlight, that

26:26

kind of thing. So we were

26:30

working on the Yeah.

26:36

Yeah, you can't

26:36

mention Silverlight with some

26:38

without somebody on Silverlight.

26:43

There's a wistfulness

26:43

to the tone. Yeah.

26:47

It still lives on

26:47

in a way. The zamel and all that

26:51

kind of stuff. The evolution of

26:51

it is is living on in, in Maui.

26:56

Yeah,

26:57

there you go.

26:59

That's something interesting that you kind of started on like, almost like a

27:00

music based program. And so like

27:06

I can thank you for being able

27:06

to like listen to like, mp3 is

27:09

on my phone. When I had space

27:09

for like two mp3 is on my phone

27:13

at the time. I won't take all

27:13

the credit for it. So yeah, I'm

27:19

gonna give you all the credit.

27:19

Alright. Thanks. I know guy Ben.

27:23

He invented music for phones,

27:23

guys. Yeah, yeah, this isn't on

27:29

the record, is it? So yeah, so

27:29

Silverlight was working on that

27:37

was, which is great for the

27:37

really early Nakia mobile. And

27:42

this is just before the windows

27:42

acquisition. So we had Lumia

27:45

devices. And then and then you

27:45

had all the fun of the Microsoft

27:52

acquisition. Which is, which was

27:52

great. So that was my first time

27:57

joining Microsoft. Where so we

27:57

wrote the we had a huge rebrand.

28:06

And we developed this

28:06

application called mix radio. So

28:09

I don't know if you either of

28:09

you guys. Yeah. So that was a

28:15

awesome team of people I worked

28:15

with on this endeavor. It was

28:21

creating a to the very foot. I

28:21

don't know if you remember that.

28:26

Nokia had an Android device they

28:26

were they released the Nokia x.

28:36

I do actually hold on. I think I

28:36

remember it. And it was it was a

28:43

Windows Phone, right? Yep. Yeah. Yep. So there's the

28:45

Windows Phone. But we had my

28:50

first experiences Xamarin was

28:50

developing for the very first

28:56

Nakia Android device called a

28:56

knock your ex. And yeah, so we

29:01

develop this mix radio

29:01

application for the knock your

29:04

ex using Xamarin. And that's

29:04

where I met Blount. He actually

29:09

we had some help from him the

29:09

Xamarin jetpack team. They flew

29:14

in with Clancy and he gave him

29:14

James Clancy. Yeah, amazing guy.

29:22

So yeah, he helped us with his

29:22

background in G music. He gave

29:27

us some really useful insight

29:27

into getting the first mix radio

29:33

client working for the Nakia x

29:33

device. So yeah, that was

29:38

awesome. However, yeah, the the

29:38

love story with Microsoft and

29:46

Nakia didn't last terribly long,

29:46

sadly. And mix radio parted ways

29:52

we there was obviously an

29:52

evolution of the of the company

29:57

and yeah, so we ended up

29:57

Becoming a startup. We got some

30:03

investment. And it looked super,

30:03

super awesome. We had about a

30:07

year's of dev effort using

30:07

Xamarin. And having this new

30:10

Lumia client, as we actually

30:10

developed dedicated Android and

30:14

iOS client, using Xamarin

30:14

Xamarin native. And we even had,

30:21

we were going to be evolve to do

30:21

a big presentation of the mixed

30:27

radio client saying how great it

30:27

was to develop it using Xamarin.

30:31

Technology. And evolve is the or

30:31

was the yearly Xamarin.

30:36

Conference. Okay, so, so not

30:36

only were you doing Xamarin

30:40

development,

30:40

but you're up

30:40

for an award at the yearly

30:43

samurai.

30:45

Yes, yes. So,

30:45

yeah. Yeah, no, it was awesome.

30:49

We were super, super proud of,

30:49

of the application and the early

30:54

beta tests, word had really

30:54

positive reviews, and it was

30:59

looking great. And then Apple

30:59

Music got launched a couple of

31:05

months. A couple of months.

31:05

Yeah, I think it's around about

31:08

January time, but few months

31:08

before the evolve. presentation.

31:14

And that was the writing's on

31:14

the wall, basically, for the

31:17

company. And the investment. We

31:17

had some investment from a

31:21

company called I can't remember

31:21

the company's name is line line.

31:29

Yeah, they're big.

31:33

So it sounds

31:33

like you're like you're an

31:35

actor. They forgot their line

31:35

line. Yeah.

31:40

Especially a huge

31:40

competitor to WhatsApp. But it's

31:44

really popular in the Asia's

31:44

apparently not obviously not so

31:49

popular in the US. But yeah,

31:49

it's really anyway, the they

31:55

suddenly we saw the writing on

31:55

the wall, so they would no

32:00

longer invest. And so we Yeah,

32:00

we had to shut down the company.

32:05

And that was literally weeks

32:05

before evolve. And we were about

32:08

to do this big presentation. So

32:08

I Pedro it's one of my fellow

32:14

MCs radio devs Yes, in fact, I

32:18

do. Have the

32:18

Nokia t shirt.

32:21

Yeah. This is an

32:21

homage to the company. Hack

32:27

week. T shirts.

32:28

I thought you were super Zelda.

32:30

I thought it

32:30

was a Zelda thing too. So yeah.

32:33

For anybody listening to the

32:33

podcast Ben's wearing. What if

32:36

you know what a Triforce is and

32:36

Zelda? Exactly like a Triforce

32:41

on his shirt.

32:42

It's a Triforce fractal

32:42

essentially.

32:46

good

32:46

description. Yeah, what does

32:48

that mean that I have no idea

32:48

it's the designer was a big fan.

32:57

I guess.

33:00

Yeah, this isn't

33:00

actually the mix radio logo by

33:02

the way. It's that mix radio

33:02

logo as was a smiley with

33:05

headphones. Yes.

33:09

I actually I saw that.

33:09

I was I've been looking all this

33:12

stuff up on like the internet

33:12

before and I've been really

33:14

enjoying it.

33:16

Cool. Yeah,

33:16

just catch up the comments real

33:20

quick. Then. If Andrew McCollum

33:20

saying that Nokia had a lot

33:24

going on then he used to have or

33:24

used to love the engage

33:29

communicator Series II 90. And

33:29

just Yeah, it's a shame because

33:34

Nokia had so much potential. And

33:34

Andrew goes on to say that

33:38

basically, once Apple released

33:38

the iPhone, everything changed.

33:45

Just basically blew up a whole

33:45

industry.

33:47

Yeah, no, Nokia was

33:47

like the name in mobile

33:51

technology for most of the time

33:51

that I remember there being

33:54

mobile technology until a

33:54

smartphone, that iPhone 2g

33:59

happened. I remember being at a

33:59

party. One person had one. And

34:04

we all sat around and took turns

34:04

holding it and like touching it

34:07

and like playing one of the

34:07

first games was that one way had

34:10

to balance the phone to move a

34:10

marble on a tract and not let it

34:13

fall into like, holes. We were

34:13

just passing this dude's phone

34:18

around a party. This is what

34:18

happened. We had nothing. We

34:23

just passed around iPhones and

34:23

one iPhone at a party.

34:27

Yeah, it was

34:27

groundbreaking. It's funny

34:30

because I actually joined the

34:30

year, I joined Nakia, the year

34:34

that the iPhone was released.

34:34

And it was funny talking to a

34:38

lot of people who had been in

34:38

the company for for years. And

34:42

were in absolute denial about

34:42

what this new technology was.

34:46

No, no, no one wants touch

34:46

screens, just buttons buttons is

34:50

what you want to keyboard physical. Yeah,

34:52

you want to pop up your

34:52

phone and have a physical

34:55

keyboard

34:58

view Good

34:58

question is have either of you

35:01

gone back and tried to use a

35:01

blackberry or a similar keyboard

35:06

like that, since my

35:07

grandma has an old

35:07

phone that you flip up to get a

35:11

keyboard, and I did it and I

35:11

looked at it and I just

35:14

immediately closed and I was

35:14

like, I don't want that I don't

35:18

even even on my iPad, I use an

35:18

iPad a lot teaching. There's a

35:23

way with the iPhone keyboard

35:23

where you can swipe out with

35:25

your thumbs, and it splits the

35:25

keyboard to the bottom corners.

35:29

And it's supposed to make it

35:29

easier even that I don't, I

35:32

can't do that. I just, I'm just

35:32

so used to my phone now like

35:36

that size. It just makes sense.

35:36

even further back, remember,

35:40

like clicking five three times

35:40

to get the letter H. t 999.

35:47

Texting.

35:48

They used to have team

35:48

nine text competitions to see

35:51

who could text the fastest.

35:53

I believe it.

35:53

So yeah, for anybody who doesn't

35:56

remember or maybe never had a

35:56

phone back in the day. There was

36:00

no keyboards, it was just the

36:00

the numbers on the phone because

36:03

phones were made for calling

36:03

people. And so cell phones just

36:07

had the dial pad on. And but if

36:07

you ever look at those older

36:12

phones, that Dialpad also has

36:12

numbers associated or letters

36:16

associated to each number. And

36:16

so yeah, if you were texting

36:19

somebody, you had to tap the

36:19

number once like you would tap

36:25

to one time to get the letter A,

36:25

you would tap two, two times for

36:29

the letter B, you tap it three

36:29

times the letter C. And then you

36:33

move on to three and tap that

36:33

once for D. So it's very, very

36:37

slow to type out anything on

36:37

your phone. Nobody ever did it.

36:40

And then eventually, yeah, this

36:40

T nine technology came out where

36:46

it was almost like predictive

36:46

text. So you would just tap two

36:50

ones if, say you wanted to type

36:50

a B, and then you just move on

36:53

to the next letter and tap the

36:53

number for that one. And it

36:56

would just kind of go off of

36:56

like, well, you're probably

36:58

typing the word the. And so it

36:58

would guess that you're typing

37:02

the word done. If you wanted the

37:02

next one, you would kind of have

37:05

to cycle through all the

37:05

different combinations. But I

37:08

still remember, I was in I was

37:08

in high school back then. And

37:14

I'm sure phones are still

37:14

banned. There. They were back

37:16

then at least. And I remember, I

37:16

got so good at t nine that I

37:20

could have the phone in my

37:20

pocket. And I knew exactly which

37:25

button to tap and how many times

37:25

and how many? How many like next

37:30

iterations of that those word

37:30

combinations to click through to

37:33

get the exact word I want? Yeah,

37:33

you just you just kind of text

37:36

your friends in class, but can't

37:36

can't do that anymore. At least

37:40

I can't.

37:42

I found new ways. Don't

37:42

worry about it. Oh, it's just

37:49

literally like, like, every

37:49

student I know. And this is

37:53

something that I noticed among

37:53

my teen students back when I was

37:56

teaching. Because I was a

37:56

teacher for 11 years for I got

37:59

my job in tech this past month.

37:59

So they all as soon as they sit

38:03

down, pull out their phone and

38:03

check their Snapchat. And then

38:06

if a friend has sent them a

38:06

picture, they immediately reply

38:09

back with a picture. But it's

38:09

just from like, here up. And

38:13

it'll be like Hi. And so all

38:13

they did was like their phone is

38:17

like in their hand looking up at

38:17

them. And it's the worst angle

38:21

ever. And that's what they did.

38:21

Like beginning of every class,

38:25

every kid would sit down, pull

38:25

up a phone check, snap, and then

38:27

just like send back a picture of

38:27

them being like, Hi, sup, I hate

38:31

English. And I'm like, why do

38:31

you guys know? And they're like,

38:36

Well, I mean, kinda and we were

38:36

also a school where everyone had

38:41

iPads. So like, they were just

38:41

talking to each other on

38:43

iMessage on their iPads. And I

38:43

didn't I was like, Look, as long

38:46

as it's when it's class time you

38:46

pay attention. What do I do yell

38:50

at you for using tech when we're

38:50

a school that makes every kid

38:53

have an iPad? Makes no sense.

39:01

All right, so back on

39:03

track less about me,

39:03

and Snapchat and teenagers

39:06

because I don't like the way

39:06

that sentence just came out of

39:08

my mouth. More about Ben. Ben,

39:08

we got you back to Microsoft

39:14

again. You know, we still were

39:14

at Nokia. Right and mix radio.

39:18

We are almost

39:18

back at Microsoft. Yeah. So

39:23

where was I? Oh, yeah. So the we

39:23

were at the line, the Apple

39:28

Music thing. So yeah, so once

39:28

that happened, it was clear that

39:35

we wouldn't get to compete. But

39:35

we'd already got our tickets to

39:39

evolve. And if we had to have

39:39

the difficult conversation where

39:46

we're not really gonna be there to do a presentation presentation talking about the

39:48

app because it's not ever

39:50

released now. So but yeah, we

39:50

still have tickets. So we

39:55

thought what the hell let's just

39:55

go enjoy it. Have some fun. It's

39:59

going to be a good Good event

39:59

and oh my god, it was it was. We

40:03

had so much fun. The evolve

40:03

party. Just the best party ever.

40:09

And it was at a theme park,

40:09

which we've got to get in the

40:13

theme park mentioned the right.

40:18

Yes. Have you guys been

40:18

consistent with that? mentioning

40:21

theme parks every episode?

40:23

I hope so.

40:23

Well, I try to keep it up. Yeah,

40:26

that's right. Xamarin Xamarin

40:26

rented out. Universal Studios,

40:30

Islands of Adventure. And so we

40:30

had the whole park to ourselves.

40:34

Probably just a couple. A couple

40:34

1000 conference attendees, and

40:40

we could ride all these rides as

40:40

much as we wanted. Like there's

40:43

no loss of the Harry

40:44

Potter right here

40:44

already. No line. Yeah. Oh,

40:47

yeah, there was a

40:48

lot of people

40:48

got for free to get too much.

40:53

Especially the Islands

40:53

of Adventure Harry Potter ride.

40:56

It is a motion sickness

40:56

nightmare. The one at Universal

41:01

Studios, Orlando, the regular

41:01

Universal Studios. Nice good

41:05

escape from gringotts enjoyable,

41:05

the other one whips you around

41:08

with like, a weight on the

41:08

bottom of a chair. You can't

41:12

hear it on the podcast, but I am

41:12

whipping my arm across.

41:18

Yeah, it's funny actually, I remember the Harry Potter ride because I remember

41:19

having they were giving up free

41:23

cocktails just all over the

41:23

place. You know, there have

41:26

stands these acrobats and they

41:26

had these people on stilts, just

41:30

handing out drinks and food. And

41:30

we'd be walking, we'd be in the

41:33

line. Holding cocktails and

41:33

thinking, well, it's gonna be a

41:37

while. Yeah. And no, you're

41:37

straight to the start that drink

41:43

this old fashion before

41:43

I get on the exorbitant journey.

41:47

Yeah. And straight on the front of the right as well. So you've got the

41:48

best seats on the on the right.

41:51

It's like, wow, this is crazy.

41:56

Back in the day.

41:57

Yeah. Kevin's

41:57

comments. Kevin's Yes. Right.

42:02

It's confirming. It's a shame.

42:02

He can't confirm the

42:04

pronunciation there.

42:09

So we're at free

42:09

parties. Studios working. Right.

42:16

Yeah. So looking

42:16

for a job basically. So I, I had

42:21

the foresight to print out some

42:21

business cards, thinking, Oh,

42:25

I'm going to be networking. I'm

42:25

going to meet some developers

42:30

there and I can introduce myself

42:30

and hopefully get a job.

42:33

Unfortunately, I only had one

42:33

card on me at the the big

42:37

networking event and and so I

42:37

bumped into bouncy there who had

42:44

met previously when he was jet

42:44

packing for us, and my dream job

42:48

would have been working for

42:48

Xamarin. I thought, well, I

42:51

can't see that happening, but

42:51

it's worth a shot. So I spoke to

42:54

Alex and gave him my card and

42:54

said, I'm looking for workers.

42:59

And, yeah, a month later, after,

42:59

like, eight or nine interviews,

43:07

I got the job. It was crazy.

43:07

Because this was literally just

43:12

as the Microsoft announcement

43:12

has happened. I've literally

43:16

just heard that Microsoft, we're

43:16

gonna be acquiring Xamarin I

43:20

thought, Okay, here we go again.

43:24

Is it a good luck charm

43:24

that you're constantly being

43:27

acquired? Like, there's

43:27

companies out there like we got

43:30

to hire Ben, because

43:34

I just think

43:34

that like, if you ever want to

43:37

go to a company that's going to

43:37

be successful or get acquired.

43:41

Follow bed? Yeah. No pressure

43:41

for your next gig go bad.

43:46

Your requirements?

43:53

Yes, so. Yeah. So

43:53

to be honest with you, I'll be

43:57

perfectly honest, that was a

43:57

concern of mine, that Xamarin

44:02

would have suffered the same

44:02

fate that Nakia did. So yeah, it

44:08

was genuine concern. And that

44:08

was something that I was asking

44:11

during the interviews. And I

44:11

mean, thankfully, they've been

44:15

looked after really well.

44:15

Xamarin has just gone from

44:18

strength, strength to strength.

44:18

We've now got Maui being

44:23

integrated into dotnet. So that

44:23

shows, you know, the commitment

44:26

that companies had to Xamarin so

44:26

yeah, definitely. It was a good

44:30

cool second time around.

44:33

But it's really what the haters are still gonna say, Microsoft's killing

44:34

Xamarin. I can't tell you how

44:38

many times I've been either

44:38

asked that or told that at and

44:43

as a Microsoft employee, I'm

44:43

like, No, we're investing a ton

44:46

of money like, yeah, future. And

44:46

like, Yeah, but Microsoft's

44:50

probably gonna kill it, right?

44:50

No. And so

44:54

that's living proof

44:54

that they're not real.

45:00

Microsoft.

45:01

Yeah, with it.

45:01

I think Dameron holding the

45:04

dinette.

45:06

Yeah, yeah, he's like

45:06

the big like, when you say

45:08

Microsoft is someone who has

45:08

been around in tech for a long

45:10

time, there's the Microsoft of

45:10

the, you know, mid 2000s, early

45:16

2010s. Even. And it doesn't, it

45:16

doesn't feel based on my

45:22

interactions based on what I've

45:22

seen. Doesn't look like that

45:25

Microsoft anymore.

45:27

No, and even

45:27

it's funny, like, Ben, you

45:29

mentioned having some say

45:29

trepidations about the Xamarin

45:34

acquisition being acquired by

45:34

Microsoft. And same for me. I

45:38

actually was not excited when

45:38

Xamarin announced the

45:41

acquisition, because like, I

45:41

don't really want to work at

45:43

Microsoft, because, yeah, in my

45:43

head, PJ, just like you were

45:46

saying, was the the old

45:46

Microsoft is like, that doesn't

45:50

really sound like a place I want

45:50

to work at. And I was like, You

45:53

know what, I'm gonna stick it

45:53

out for at least a year. Can we

45:56

give one solid year and then I'm

45:56

sending out my resume? And here

46:01

I am, what? Six years later?

46:04

And I love it.

46:05

I don't want to

46:05

leave. So please don't fire me,

46:09

Microsoft.

46:12

Yeah, I'm

46:12

celebrating my fifth year as

46:16

well. yesterday. Microsoft, so

46:19

congratulate Fantastic.

46:20

Thank you. Really good.

46:20

All right. So outside of work

46:26

outside of this awesome, awesome

46:26

history. You have a working in

46:29

tech and in mobile. Um, what do

46:29

you do for fun? I understand you

46:34

do something with drones. Is

46:34

that true?

46:36

Yeah, it's

46:36

definitely one of my many

46:39

interests outside of work. I

46:39

tend to pick up a hobby and get

46:46

obsessed with it. And drones is

46:46

definitely one of those an

46:49

example of one of those things.

46:49

So initially started off with

46:53

just one of those cheap drones

46:53

which can fly around and have a

46:56

camera can't do much with it.

46:58

And why don't you just

46:58

make like do a flip by pushing

47:01

on opposite direction and it's

47:01

exactly the Radio Shack and

47:04

they're like, be very careful

47:04

with this battery. There's

47:07

nothing safe about it like

47:07

literally that yes, I remember

47:12

the battery and stopped bulging

47:12

after a while. Yeah. Don't let

47:16

it charge more than 30 minutes,

47:16

because it will bulge. Thanks

47:22

Radio Shack. Yep,

47:25

yep. But actually

47:25

hang a GoPro off it just to see

47:29

if I could get some footage.

47:29

Yeah. But then I finally got

47:34

saved up some money and got a

47:34

maverick Pro. Wow, those things

47:38

are amazing. And I've enjoyed

47:38

taking it with me on holidays.

47:44

My fiance and I've enjoyed lots

47:44

of travels before the Panini as

47:51

you guys call it.

47:54

The parents era as it were.

47:57

And also Ben's

47:57

Ben's being very modest right

48:00

now. Because he makes amazing

48:00

videos. I'm gonna share Ben's

48:06

YouTube channel here, because

48:06

I've I've watched some of these

48:11

videos and they're stunning. The

48:11

the one you shared in, I think

48:14

was Iceland. Just incredible.

48:14

How do you how do you go about

48:20

finding these locations and

48:20

figuring out where to even start

48:24

with these amazing drone shots.

48:27

That's funny, she

48:27

asked that because Iceland was a

48:30

fantastic destination to take

48:30

the drone to. And I definitely

48:35

have to do some research before

48:35

going to these sites to make

48:38

sure I'm legally allowed to use

48:38

it and, and the restrictions are

48:41

getting more and more and I've

48:41

had to, like get a CIA license

48:45

in the UK. It's it's about a fly

48:45

drone, just basically around the

48:51

UK. But in Iceland that the

48:51

rules were fairly vague. And so

49:00

I thought okay, it's fine. I can

49:00

just take it wherever,

49:03

essentially, at the time because

49:03

they were still fairly new when

49:06

we went to Iceland. And yeah, it

49:06

was fine everywhere. We took it

49:09

apart from one place where you

49:09

can see a fantastic waterfall.

49:15

It looks beautiful. I fly really

49:15

close to it. And in the

49:19

background. You can you can see

49:19

a guy walking up to me and I

49:25

take that down now that needs to

49:25

go down now. Yeah, like stop

49:29

what you're doing. Okay. So yes,

49:29

and he was like, sure I was

49:34

gonna get arrested or what but

49:34

yeah, you do need to be careful.

49:38

But yeah, generally speaking. I

49:38

used to get some funny looks

49:42

going through the airport

49:42

through customs and getting

49:45

checks and look at this things

49:45

What on earth is this you know,

49:48

batteries and all kinds of stuff

49:48

loose and it's like okay, but

49:52

yeah, but it's a monster took

49:52

some great footage up in Malta

49:57

in Greece as to protect some

49:57

amazing stuff. shots. And

50:01

recently I took it. I just got a

50:01

new drone recently, which is

50:06

super small. It's so called the

50:06

maverick mini that was actually

50:11

called the mini two. This one is

50:11

the latest version which is

50:15

tiny, but it has all of the set.

50:15

Yeah, this this thing is

50:18

amazing. It can go for

50:18

kilometres literally can fly

50:24

from you know,

50:25

what do you need to fly

50:25

a drone for four kilometers away

50:28

for

50:30

if you see my son flustered, you see there's one bit what I do take it as far as

50:32

I could possibly do it before

50:35

when it starts complaining, and

50:35

then it will just home. If it

50:38

loses signal, it'll

50:38

automatically head back home. So

50:42

yeah, that's one good safety feature.

50:44

That's I was gonna say

50:44

you don't want to lose it four

50:46

kilometers away.

50:49

Exactly. Because then you have to go find it. Yeah,

50:52

yeah, that's like a 5k.

50:52

Just to almost a 5k just to find

50:55

your drone. And that'll take me

50:55

at least 45 minutes to go. I'll

51:01

be honest, I'll be honest, I'm

51:01

not the fastest kid.

51:06

Me to these days.

51:06

Yeah. The days of me managing a

51:10

20 minute or 25 minute 5k long

51:10

gone. Actually, that reminds me.

51:15

So I just remembered that's how

51:15

I met. Brandon was where my

51:21

first day at Xamarin. Went to

51:21

the the office. Where it was it

51:28

in?

51:30

San Francisco.

51:31

San Francisco, of

51:31

course. Just My mind went blank

51:35

there for Yes. San Francisco

51:35

office. And yeah. Brandon

51:42

offered to take me for a run

51:42

with his dog. Yeah, I thought I

51:48

was quite fit until you run with

51:48

him.

51:53

embarrass anyone? Kirby

51:53

a very strong dog.

51:57

That's easy. If

51:57

you're interested, Ben. There's

52:00

the Napa Valley marathon coming

52:00

up in March. So there's March

52:04

2022, plenty of time to train.

52:04

Come hang out in Napa

52:10

rollerblade. And we'll do the marathon.

52:13

There's a few

52:13

things I'd like about going to

52:15

Napa. But running is.

52:19

That's right. There's

52:19

quite a lot to do there. But

52:22

don't run around in the valley

52:22

and maybe through a mountain or

52:26

I'm not into it not. I can grab

52:26

some instead of water stations.

52:30

It's wine glasses. Not

52:33

very fancy wine

52:33

lined up along the route. That's

52:36

right. So that I know we chatted

52:36

a little bit about game

52:41

development earlier. But you

52:41

also do a little bit there as

52:44

well as the 3d modeling. Is that

52:44

right?

52:48

Yeah, that is

52:48

right. Yeah, I I, yeah, that's

52:51

another one of my obsessions, or

52:51

something I try and make time to

52:54

learn. So I've been my end goal

52:54

is to to write my own 3d game.

53:00

And release it sit with me

53:00

having created all of the assets

53:05

and using unity, I think I've

53:05

been playing around with the

53:08

Unity and Unreal Engine. And

53:08

I've watched loads of videos of

53:12

people trying to duke it out. So

53:12

Which is better? I think I'm

53:16

gonna go with Unity. And just

53:16

because of C sharp and yeah,

53:18

it's really cool. It's a really

53:18

good experience.

53:26

So Justin, C sharp.

53:26

That's my first language. And so

53:30

it's got a special place in my

53:30

heart. I'm not the typical brand

53:33

new to coding person. Because my

53:33

mentor was Brandon. He was like,

53:37

well, you're gonna learn C sharp

53:37

first. And I was like, Okay.

53:41

Well, in all

53:41

fairness, PJ asked me, or I

53:45

offered to teach me how to code.

53:45

And I said, I only know C sharp.

53:49

We're gonna learn C sharp

53:49

together. And I bet Did you have

53:56

3d models to show off? Yeah,

53:56

just give me a sneak peek at the

54:00

game. Yeah,

54:01

so one of the

54:01

things I do is I do a live

54:03

stream or tried to, as I'm

54:03

learning, live stream my

54:09

efforts. So I was gonna show you

54:09

what I've been working on

54:13

recently. So if I share my

54:13

screen, you can see one of the

54:18

things that are just going to

54:18

show is that I use this as a tip

54:22

for anyone who is interested in

54:22

learning blender is if you steam

54:28

you can get automatic updates.

54:28

So that's something I discovered

54:32

recently. So bizarrely, for some

54:32

reason, the blender installer,

54:36

they update it really frequently. So it's an open source 3d modeling application.

54:38

It's and it's gone. from

54:43

strength to strength over the

54:43

last few years. It's incredible

54:46

what what it's capable of, and

54:46

I've followed loads of

54:49

YouTubers, there's a guy called

54:49

Blender guru, who, as the name

54:53

suggests, knows Blender pretty

54:53

well.

54:56

He's pretty good at it.

54:56

Yeah.

54:59

Yeah. All right,

54:59

yeah, it could be said, it

55:02

definitely could be said. And

55:02

he's one of the things he does

55:04

is it teaches you to make a

55:04

doughnut. So a lot of the first

55:09

things you do is make a doughnut

55:09

and you make the sprinkles. He's

55:12

a particle system, and you do

55:12

all sorts of cool stuff. But the

55:15

next thing you do is a chair. So

55:15

that's

55:18

what I've got

55:18

here, as we're looking at here.

55:21

Yeah. So, so this

55:21

is, yeah, you can see how this

55:26

is a 3d model of a chair that I

55:26

did this a couple of months ago,

55:30

actually. And but I was super

55:30

pleased with how it turned out.

55:35

And you can see

55:37

it looks great. Like

55:37

it's got like wood grain and

55:40

like the the screws are a nice

55:40

little like visible detail in

55:43

there. That's really cool. Yeah.

55:43

All right. And then sometimes it

55:49

doesn't respond and Blender does

55:49

what Blender wants to do.

55:54

Great. Yeah. So

55:54

for those who podcast that

55:58

blenders just crushed.

56:01

Oh, they don't know that though. So it looks amazing. It's working

56:02

flawlessly.

56:05

I can't believe that.

56:05

It is talking and is the main

56:09

character in the game.

56:12

It's great. But

56:12

But yeah, do do follow Ben on

56:15

Twitch twitch TV slash or

56:15

twitch.tv. Slash Ben btg. is in

56:22

you also do right? Or what what

56:22

do you stream I should ask the

56:25

game development, 3d development,

56:28

mobile

56:28

development. I'm trying to get

56:31

into a routine I really that's

56:31

definitely something I need to

56:34

work on myself is getting a

56:34

regular routine like you guys,

56:38

like, you set it and you stick

56:38

to it. And we every week, you

56:41

say right, this is the day I'm

56:41

gonna be doing it. And yeah, so

56:45

I'm just trying to get

56:45

everything in order so that I

56:47

can say, yeah, I'll definitely

56:47

commit to doing this. But at the

56:50

moment, I've been doing it ad

56:50

hoc, just like okay, when I have

56:53

a couple of hours to spend, I'll

56:53

share I'm going to be live

56:56

streaming me 3d modeling

56:56

blender. But yes, in the next

57:00

few weeks. Yeah, I'll start

57:00

doing it regularly. now. I'll

57:05

share them on Twitter. Yeah,

57:05

when I start,

57:09

Twitch is great.

57:09

Because it really is, it's when

57:11

you've got the time you're like,

57:11

I'm just gonna do it. It's the

57:13

thing I'm gonna be doing anyway,

57:13

I might as well do it in front

57:16

of y'all. Because then people

57:16

feel that connection through

57:19

twitch or something really

57:19

special about it. So yeah, if

57:22

you're gonna be working on that chair, if you're gonna be working on like, models for that

57:24

game, just get out there and do

57:27

it and it creates a little

57:27

accountability to is what I've

57:30

noticed.

57:32

Without a doubt,

57:32

that's without a doubt the thing

57:34

I've learned from it, so I get

57:34

support and the accountability

57:38

to say, right, I'm committing to

57:38

doing this. And yeah, that's

57:41

Yeah, definitely. I agree with that.

57:42

Well, I definitely went

57:42

and followed you immediately

57:45

once I saw that URL come up. So

57:45

I'm following you, everyone

57:49

else. You should go follow him.

57:49

Once again. That's twitch.tv

57:51

backslash Ben btg. Go follow

57:51

him. It'll be great. Yeah, and

57:58

scribe to give him money. Right,

57:58

and drive. And

58:06

go. We only

58:06

have about a minute and a half

58:10

left. So we know you've got this

58:10

amazing twitch channel, Twitch.

58:15

tv twitch.tv. Slash Ben. Ben

58:15

btg. youtube channel

58:20

youtube.com. Slash Ben btg.

58:20

Where else can folks find you?

58:26

Anything with Ben

58:26

btg. So any platform you're

58:28

interested in? Chances are I've

58:28

created an account on it. It's

58:33

been btg. I try and get the

58:33

earliest possible I got my

58:38

Twitter account, like 10 years

58:38

ago, whenever it first opened.

58:42

And I've tried to follow that.

58:42

Just grab that account as soon

58:47

as possible.

58:48

Right. It's nice to

58:48

have the branding connect to

58:51

everything. Yeah. But nobody

58:51

else do that.

58:56

No one else can.

58:58

Go open up a Ben btg.

58:58

On another platform. Leave it.

59:02

Yeah, please.

59:04

Just again.

59:04

What's that new chat app where

59:07

it's?

59:08

Is it the audio? Only one?

59:10

Yeah. There's

59:10

like a preview on the iPhone.

59:13

Ah, I'm blinking snap.

59:15

That's the one that

59:15

wasn't very accessible. I

59:17

remember that.

59:19

That's right.

59:19

It's invite only. But let's see.

59:21

So Ben, with about 30 seconds

59:21

left. You mentioned you have a

59:25

background in philosophy. What

59:25

advice quickly would you give to

59:31

folks in the tech community

59:31

based off of your philosophy

59:34

background?

59:35

Let's go play it out.

59:35

Do Yeah, well, I

59:35

would say don't be afraid to get

59:42

out your comfort zone. So that

59:42

is without a doubt. The thing

59:46

that I've always embraced during

59:46

this show, to be honest with

59:49

you, it frightens the hell out

59:49

of me. doing stuff stuff live is

59:53

is really nerve wracking. But I

59:53

love to be out of my comfort

59:56

zone and it really pushes me and

59:56

just makes you a better person.

1:00:00

And you evolve and grow.

1:00:04

That's right. Great

1:00:04

advice. Growth only comes from

1:00:07

discomfort.

1:00:08

Well said,

1:00:08

Well, thanks, everybody for

1:00:11

joining us again this week on

1:00:11

iPads. Tune in next week 1pm

1:00:15

Pacific and we'll see you then.

1:00:15

Bye bye