0:01

Vrbo offers hold vacation homes with

0:03

the space to spend quality time with

0:05

the people you love. In a Vrbo vacation

0:07

home, the host doesn't stay with too. So

0:09

when you run a Vrbo, you get the whole upstairs,

0:12

to get the whole downstairs, and the whole nap

0:14

room, which is any room really, if you try hard

0:16

enough, where you can just be together because

0:18

the most important thing in the world is quality

0:20

time with your loved ones. Book your

0:22

next day on the Vrbo app.

0:29

Whether you're a driverless car engineer or

0:31

an augmented reality designer, Squarespace

0:33

is the only one platform to help you stand out

0:35

with a beautiful website, engage with your audience,

0:37

and sell anything. With Squarespace, you

0:39

can collect email subscribers and convert them into

0:41

loyal customers, display posts from your social

0:44

profiles on your website and even use the

0:46

analytics feature to gain insights to grow

0:48

your business. Head to squarespace dot com slash

0:50

invisible for free trial when New Year's Day lunch

0:52

Use the offer code invisible to save ten percent

0:54

off your first purchase of a website or

0:56

domain. This

1:00

is ninety nine percent invisible. I'm

1:02

Roman Mars. Even

1:06

if you've never been to LA's Chinatown, you've

1:08

probably seen it. Although it doesn't get as much

1:10

attention as New York or San Francisco's

1:12

Chinatown, it is a regular shooting

1:14

location for TV and film. So

1:16

you may recognize it from movies like rush

1:18

hour or freaky Friday or, you

1:20

know, Chinatown.

1:23

The most recognizable feature of LA's

1:25

Chinatown is it's central plaza.

1:27

It's an outdoor pedestrian mall that's almost

1:30

overwhelmingly colorful. Producer

1:33

Vivintlay. Brightly painted

1:35

buildings are topped with sweeping pagoda

1:37

style roofs and then accented with

1:39

fluorescent neon lacing. For

1:41

decades, Chinatown's central plaza

1:43

was a thriving tourist area. But

1:45

by the late nineteen seventies, it had fallen

1:48

on hard times. The neighborhood's

1:50

neon lights still glowed over shops

1:52

and

1:52

restaurants, but there was no one there to

1:54

take it all in. Things had taken

1:57

up. Significant nose dive.

1:59

There really wasn't anyone on the street or

2:01

going anywhere

2:02

and, you know, downtown was

2:04

dead. It was this deserted

2:06

Chinatown in nineteen seventy eight that

2:08

captured the interest of Paul Greenstein.

2:11

Back then, Paul was a twenty something. He

2:13

liked music and hoped to run his own club as

2:15

a promoter. Instead, he did a lot

2:17

of odd jobs around the city for money. You

2:19

know, restoring juke boxes fixing

2:21

toys, designing ads for a local cafe.

2:24

Paul would sometimes spend nights wandering

2:26

around Los Angeles with a friend. And

2:29

one night he found himself in central plaza.

2:31

The streets of Chinatown were quiet as

2:33

always, but a sound

2:35

caught his attention.

2:38

We can hear this really wild party going

2:40

on. So

2:42

we kind of gravitated to where all the noises coming

2:44

from, and there's this place called Madden moms.

2:47

Madam Wong's was a restaurant right in Central

2:49

Plaza. If you enter through the famous

2:51

east gate, you'll see an ornate two

2:54

story building with a curved pagoda

2:56

style roof and an intricately detailed

2:58

wooden balustrade lining the

3:00

balcony. There obviously, you know, it was

3:02

packed. And we're looking at now. We're least nobody

3:04

here in Chinatown, but displaced packed. So

3:06

we go upstairs.

3:08

Colin and his friend went up to the second story

3:10

entrance of Madden Wong's expecting

3:12

to have to squeeze his way through the

3:14

door. But there's nobody there

3:16

who's recording. That's a recording of

3:19

a party.

3:23

According to Paul, the owners of the

3:26

restaurant had been blasting party ambiance

3:28

through speakers to give off the illusion that

3:30

it was packed with customers.

3:32

So we went, oh god, that's so

3:34

funny. What a rep? This

3:36

is Craig. We love

3:37

it, you know, because it was obviously a

3:39

really lame trick. And we thought

3:41

that was funny. Funny enough that

3:44

Paul kept coming back to Madden Wongs.

3:47

He would ride his motorcycle over to Central

3:49

Plaza to get lunch regularly and would

3:52

find himself having long conversations with

3:54

one of the owners of the

3:55

restaurant. A man named George

3:57

Wong. And I talked

3:59

to George and he told me stories whether they were

4:01

real or not. III never know. But he said, oh,

4:03

god. You know, I was with the flying tigers

4:06

in China and I grew up in San Francisco

4:08

and I had nineteen thirty seven Indian

4:10

just like yours, and I used to ride it up and down

4:12

the hills. And he just told me stories, and

4:14

I tell him stories, and I'd have a

4:16

beer, you know, and then I go back to work. Man

4:19

in Wong's was an island themed restaurant

4:21

and club. They served tropical drinks,

4:23

and at night, Polynesian bands and dancers

4:26

performed on a techie themed stage, decorated

4:28

with seashells and dried grass.

4:30

Like a lot of businesses in Chinatown, the restaurant

4:33

wasn't doing well. By nineteen seventy eight,

4:35

the techie craze that grip the nation had

4:37

officially burned

4:38

out, and Matamoros would be lucky

4:40

to get in a few dozen people during

4:42

the evenings. But Paul had an

4:44

idea. One that he hoped would put

4:46

asses in the seats and Paul

4:49

on the

4:49

map. Why

4:50

don't I start a quote in this restaurant

4:52

that's dead all the time? Paul

4:54

wanted to turn Matam Wang's into a hot

4:56

new music venue, a venue he would

4:58

book and promote.

5:02

He had all sorts of ideas for the club.

5:04

He imagined putting on rock ability shows

5:06

one night, then the next night at jazz band,

5:08

even Sattara music. So he

5:10

asked George if he'd be willing to let him book some

5:12

local musicians at Madam

5:14

Wang's. Basically, he said, let me talk to my

5:16

wife. She next time he came in, I said, talk to your wife

5:18

and he goes, yeah, she says, no. Oh, and why?

5:20

He

5:20

goes, I don't know if she just says no.

5:23

The eponymous madam Wong, George's

5:25

wife, Esther, passed away in two thousand

5:27

five, But from every account

5:29

that I've read or heard, she was a force

5:31

to be reckoned with. Esther was

5:34

born in nineteen seventeen in Shanghai,

5:36

the daughter of a wealthy automobile importer.

5:39

She was well educated and well traveled,

5:41

but in nineteen forty nine was forced to

5:43

flee China to escape the incoming communist

5:46

regime, losing her high end lifestyle.

5:49

She made her home in Los Angeles and worked

5:51

as a clerk for a shipping company for twenty

5:53

years before opening madam Wong's with her

5:55

husband George.

5:56

Esther Wong was not interested in working

5:58

with Paul. But he was insistent. So

6:01

I said, you know, what's your worst

6:02

day? She said Tuesday. I said, give me

6:04

Tuesdays. After some convincing,

6:07

Esther decided to let Paul experiment with

6:09

their slowest days and book some local bands.

6:12

What Esther probably wasn't anticipating though

6:14

was at this very time in LA. There

6:17

was a rising musical scene just

6:19

screaming for a new

6:20

venue. Punk. Well,

6:23

I think at the beginning, promoters felt

6:25

like punk is a new thing,

6:28

and there were just a handful places

6:30

that welcomed punk with

6:32

open doors in seventy seven. This is

6:35

Alice Bag. I am

6:37

an old school punk

6:39

rocker who started playing

6:41

in a punk band in nineteen seventy

6:43

seven.

6:44

That band she was playing in was

6:46

the trailblazing first wave punk

6:48

band, The Bags. In the late

6:50

seventies, punk had just begun to

6:52

take root in Los Angeles, And Alice

6:54

remembers a burgeoning scene where people

6:57

like her fit in. There were a lot

6:59

of bands that had

7:01

women queers, people covered. That

7:03

was very, very inclusive scene,

7:06

and there were a lot of really unique voices.

7:08

So I think when you

7:11

listen to LA

7:12

punk, it is maybe little bit courtier.

7:14

But the issue was that almost no one, not the biggest

7:17

arena or the smallest clubs, wanted

7:19

to host these local

7:20

bands. Because, well, you know, from

7:22

my personal experience, the bags got

7:25

a bad reputation for

7:26

our fans being too aggressive and

7:29

destroying things. Alice

7:32

isn't exaggerating about that reputation. Take

7:35

for example, in nineteen seventy eight, when

7:37

the bags played this very famous LA

7:39

rock club called the Trumanor.

7:41

It was later called the trashing of

7:43

the trouser because there was a

7:45

lot of craziness. Rather

7:49

than providing a dance floor, the trouser

7:52

put down tables and chairs, expecting

7:54

the audience to remain seated the

7:56

whole

7:56

night. And as soon as

7:58

the show started, things began to go immediately

8:01

around. If you had a puncture at one of

8:03

those places and you didn't move the tables

8:05

and create a dance floor,

8:07

WELL, Pumps WERE GOING TO DO IT FOR YOU.

8:09

Reporter:

8:10

SOON ENOUGH, THE AUDIENCE STARTED HURLING

8:12

THOSE TABLES AND CHAIRS ACROSS THE ROOM.

8:14

You know, the the furniture ended up in

8:16

a pile, actually, like tables

8:19

and chairs in a pile. And there are

8:21

there's actually a video footage I think where

8:24

you can see us playing on stage. You

8:26

can see, like, every now and then, the chair flying

8:28

across.

8:32

There's this photo that was taken after the chaos

8:34

had subsided. Wooden chairs

8:36

and table pieces are strewn into a frenzy

8:38

pile, as if the audience was trying

8:40

to barricade the place from a zombie apocalypse.

8:45

But then, of course, the bags never worked.

8:48

Were never allowed back at the trouser

8:50

door. And I think for a

8:51

while, punk bands in general were not

8:53

allowed at the trouser doors. So, yes,

8:56

unfortunately, these sort of things

8:58

closed doors for us. It

9:00

wasn't just the true but door banding punk

9:02

bands. It was most clubs.

9:05

So punks had to make do. They

9:07

try sliding in through the back door of alternative

9:10

unsuspecting venues. Some

9:12

bands, Wood Book shows in, abandoned

9:14

synagogues, or Ukrainian cultural

9:16

centers, or the performance hall of the benevolent

9:19

and protective order of the elves.

9:21

But

9:21

as soon as the establishment figured out what was

9:23

happening, they'd pull the plug or

9:25

call the cops. The plan for

9:27

Madden Wong's was to book all types of

9:29

music. Not just punk rock.

9:32

But by opening her club up to the scene,

9:34

Esther Wong was about to form an uneasy

9:37

alliance with pumps knocking

9:39

at her door.

9:41

Paul jumped in immediately and designed flyers

9:43

and posters and staple them to telephone

9:45

poles all over town.

9:47

After few months of planning, Paul kicked

9:49

off the week night shows in the fall of nineteen

9:51

seventy eight with a musician named Gary

9:53

Valentine. You know, in the beginning, it was

9:55

written in Matamoros. It was very exciting. I mean,

9:58

I I wish I I had kept

10:00

bottle with the adrenaline that I got every

10:02

night out of that place.

10:04

Matamoros. Pumps featured different types of music.

10:06

But the punks were the ones who really

10:08

turned up.

10:09

Yeah. When she when she started she was serving

10:11

dinner until nine minutes.

10:12

And so then all a sudden instead of having, like,

10:15

twenty people that were, like, three hundred people.

10:17

This is Anne Tsuma and Jeff Springer.

10:20

Anne was a prolific photographer of the LA

10:22

a punk scene and Jeff was a freelance journalist.

10:25

They were drawn in early and watched as Madam

10:27

Wang's crowds grew bigger and bigger.

10:29

They said Central Plaza was a good

10:31

vibe. There was super fun to go there.

10:33

You could talk really easily

10:35

and there's a big space out part

10:37

people could Strawly

10:39

in the plaza, and you would not disturb

10:42

neighbors. We

10:42

should hang out. But aside from the cool

10:45

vibe and convenient vocation, there

10:47

were intangible qualities that lure young

10:49

punks to

10:49

Chinatown. Well,

10:50

I certainly liked it better than Hollywood.

10:52

Yeah. I

10:53

mean,

10:53

it was much it felt safer.

10:56

It felt safer is

10:57

But it was still you had, like,

10:59

that element there to make feel a

11:01

little edgy. Chinatown

11:06

was safer than a lot of other punk hangouts

11:08

in LA. And sure, who's gonna

11:10

argue with easy parking. But let's

11:12

not miss words here. A big part

11:15

of the appeal for punks coming to Chinatown

11:17

was this quote, edgy aesthetic. And

11:20

Chinatown seemed edgy mainly because

11:23

it wasn't rich and it wasn't white.

11:25

Punks weren't the first outsiders to be

11:27

drawn to Chinatown, and that's because

11:30

it was designed to draw outsiders

11:32

in. I would feel that what was going

11:34

on in the pungsten is kind of similar to what

11:36

happened in Chinatown for decades before

11:38

I

11:38

had. This is William Gau, assistant

11:40

professor of ethnic studies at Sacramento

11:43

State University. He says that

11:45

LA's Chinatown is actually considered new

11:47

Chinatown, because the original neighborhood

11:49

was torn down in the nineteen thirties to make

11:51

way for union station. When

11:54

Chinese American business leaders rebuilt

11:56

the community, They purposefully designed

11:58

its central plaza with a quote unquote

12:00

exotic eastern aesthetic in

12:03

order to lure Anglo American tourists

12:05

to Chinatown.

12:06

What type of agency does a Chinese American

12:08

merchant have? But to find ways and

12:10

to take the perceived ethnic difference,

12:13

and to make it sellable. And so the Chinese American

12:15

merchants are trying to make

12:18

Chinese American difference palatable to

12:20

a larger white audience in a way that will empower

12:22

them. So in the late nineteen seventies,

12:25

decades after new Chinatown drew an outsider's

12:27

with its deliberate Shane Wasbury, Esther

12:29

and George Wong did something similar. They

12:32

capitalized on a new crowd by selling them

12:34

an experience they couldn't get anywhere

12:36

else. If you have Chinese American

12:38

businesses whose lifeblood are people outside

12:40

of the community, you know, the pungsten is just

12:43

gonna be another aspect of that. It's gonna be a part

12:45

of broader history of a type of symbiotic

12:47

relationship in which Chinese

12:49

American businesses are

12:51

catering to and sometimes profiting from

12:54

folks that are coming into the community and spending

12:56

money there. As with

12:58

the case of Paul Greenstein and Esther

13:00

Wong, this sticky symbiosis had

13:03

its tensions. Paul and Esther

13:05

had different ideas for the club, So

13:07

after just a few

13:08

months, Paul left Madam Wang's and

13:10

Esther was charting her club's destiny.

13:13

In order to keep bringing huge crowds to

13:15

her restaurant, Ester began working

13:17

with professional bookers.

13:19

People always thought she was like, very

13:22

tough. And, like, I definitely saw

13:25

her be tough, but, like, she wasn't

13:27

just tough. That wasn't her thing.

13:29

Like, otherwise, like, why am I at her house for

13:31

Chinese New Year's, you know.

13:33

This is Jonathan Daniel, one of Esther's

13:35

music bookers. Today, he's a co

13:37

founder of crushed music and works with artists

13:40

like Green Day Fallout Boy and Miley

13:42

Cyrus. But back then, he was

13:44

just a nineteen year old kid trying to learn

13:46

about the music industry when he met s

13:48

term long.

13:49

I mean, that was just I was so young

13:52

that I

13:54

don't think I fully appreciated

13:57

like where she came from. I just knew

13:59

it was different. Jonathan respected

14:02

Esther on professional level. And

14:04

on a personal level, he liked her.

14:06

Sometimes she would even take into the horse

14:08

racing track with her because mama

14:10

love the

14:11

ponies. She was like incredible

14:13

if betting on horses and that was sort

14:15

of myth that's how she had made the

14:17

money was horse

14:19

bedding, which I don't know if that's true, but

14:21

it's amazing story. And

14:23

although Esther had a reputation for having

14:25

a temper, Jonathan says she was easy

14:28

to work with as long as the shows were full.

14:30

She gave me a lot of room. Especially

14:33

for a kid. You

14:36

know, every once in a while, she would go up and

14:38

she would say, call Martha. Because

14:40

she loved the motels and she loved Martha Davis

14:42

or the plumb songs was another.

14:45

And those bands had been very successful

14:47

at the beginning. And so she would always be

14:49

like, call these bands. Within

14:51

a year of opening, Esther had turned Madam

14:53

Wang's into a prestige gig.

14:56

It went from being the place that you played because

14:58

there was nowhere else to go to being the

15:00

place that you had to

15:01

play. Well, here in downtown

15:03

Los Angeles, deep in the heart of Chinatown, Madam

15:06

Wongs. Now this is a club that's given birth

15:08

to many new rock

15:09

acts. In fact, some people even say it's the center

15:11

of new talent on the West Coast. Madam

15:13

Wong started booking not just local

15:16

unsigned

15:16

LAX, but big musicians from

15:19

all over the world.

15:20

She was hard, met him wrong, and and

15:22

she made that place

15:24

happen, and she made that scene

15:27

happen. Journalist, Jeff Spreier,

15:29

again. As a result, she had people

15:31

like the police playing there, and she

15:33

had people like the b fifty two's

15:36

would come into town. And they played there.

15:38

And that stage was tiny. It

15:40

was a tiny, tiny stage.

15:42

Yeah. They played there because she was

15:44

The place to play? Boingo

15:47

Boingo played Madden

15:48

wongs. The Go Go's played Madden wongs.

15:50

Even the Ramones. There's

15:52

actually a story that Esther pulled two members

15:55

of the Ramones off the stage to make

15:57

them clean up graffiti that they scrawled on

15:59

the bathroom walls.

16:01

Ester and George doubled down and opened

16:03

up a second, even larger location

16:05

in Santa Monica called Madam Wang's

16:07

West. Wongs were savvy

16:09

business owners who were strategic about

16:11

how they ran their clubs. Since

16:13

Madden Wongs made most of its money through the bar,

16:16

Jonathan said that George Wong would keep all

16:18

sorts of detailed notes on the types of audiences

16:20

that certain bands would bring

16:21

in. He would watch all the bands.

16:24

Because the place was super small.

16:26

And so he would write things like ice

16:29

water drinkers, meaning their crowd didn't

16:31

buy a liquor. No.

16:33

And they would write, no, no

16:34

draw. If they're wearing enough

16:37

people,

16:38

I do like the idea of, like, George

16:40

money balling it, like keeping tabs of Oh,

16:42

definitely. Yeah. It was a he was a

16:44

hundred percent money ball. Yes. Yeah.

16:46

He had a binder.

16:49

George had his money ball books, but Esther

16:51

was the figurehead of the clubs. She

16:53

took it upon herself to listen to the stacks

16:55

of tapes from interested bands and personally

16:57

chose who got to perform on her stage.

17:00

But at best, she tolerated the

17:02

stuff being played at Madden Wongs. In

17:04

nineteen seventy nine, the same year the

17:06

b fifty two's and the police were playing

17:08

on her stage, she told the LA

17:10

Times, quote, before I didn't

17:12

think I'd ever like rock music. Now

17:15

I can turn it on and it doesn't bother

17:17

me.

17:19

I wouldn't I think

17:21

she cared for the culture. I

17:24

think she really liked

17:26

when the club was crowded and people were having

17:29

a good time. Mhmm. I don't think

17:31

she's like said and listened to the

17:33

music. That wasn't her thing.

17:37

She may not have been into it for the music itself.

17:39

But there was something about the noisy

17:41

rock lifestyle that Esther couldn't resist.

17:44

She liked the energy and took a lot of

17:46

pride when a band would get signed out of

17:48

her club.

17:49

As Madam Wang's reputation grew, so

17:51

did Esther's. Here she is being interviewed

17:53

by the musician Bob Welch for a show

17:55

called Hollywood Heartbeat.

17:57

Behind the bar, we have the legendary madam

18:00

Wong, Esther Wong. Hi Esther. Hi

18:02

Bob. What do you what do you think about the the

18:05

this music? Do you like it?

18:07

You know? Well, it's different. It's

18:09

all together different than anything else.

18:12

Everybody had their different

18:13

music. And I like that the most.

18:16

You realize

18:17

do you realize that you're a legend becoming

18:19

a legend, already a legend in Los Angeles?

18:22

Well, I wouldn't say that.

18:26

Soon, Esther had a new nickname.

18:29

She was the godmother. They

18:31

called her the godmother As

18:33

a sixty two year old Chinese immigrant, Esther

18:36

was getting all sorts of attention as the unlikely

18:38

godmother of punk. And although it

18:40

made for a catchy nickname, there were lot

18:43

of people in the scene who resented that moniker.

18:45

Was she, like,

18:48

really hosting punk. I'd say no.

18:51

Alice Bag again. Despite what

18:53

the media had dubbed her, other punks

18:55

like Alice knew that there was a different story

18:57

there. I don't think she deserves

18:59

to be called anything that would

19:03

frame her in terms of supporting punk.

19:06

Maybe, you know, that could be

19:08

adjusted to new wave, but

19:10

not punk.

19:13

Around the time that Esther discovered rock

19:15

in the late nineteen seventies, punk

19:17

music was changing and a new

19:19

style was splintering out into its own

19:22

separate

19:22

genre. New wave.

19:25

New wave is a lot like punk if you added

19:27

ironic lyrics, mainstream appeal, and

19:29

a couple of synthesizers. Too

19:31

many punks. The distinction between

19:33

the two genres meant everything. But

19:36

to Ester Wang, these subtle musical

19:38

differences weren't enough for her to put up

19:40

with the rowdy punk crowd. So

19:42

as business began picking up, Esther

19:45

pivoted and focused on booking NewWave

19:47

over punk. The new waivers tended

19:49

to act a little more professionally and drawn

19:52

slightly tamer audiences.

19:54

My guess is Unko Wonko probably didn't

19:56

tag Esther's bathroom. I

19:58

am pretty sure that our first

20:00

show in Chinatown

20:02

was at Mad

20:03

Wongs, and it was also our

20:05

last show at Mad Wongs. Alice

20:09

says that the bags first show at Madam Wang's

20:11

ended a lot like the trashing of the troubadour.

20:14

Things got out of hand and a lot of furniture

20:16

got damaged. Esther got

20:18

tired of the sort of thing and began

20:21

straight up banning a lot of punk bands.

20:24

So Pung had

20:26

to find another venue and lucky

20:28

for

20:28

us, the Hong

20:30

Kong Cafe opened. After

20:40

the break, The Hong Kong Cafe opens,

20:43

and the Chinatown Punkwares begin.

20:53

First

20:57

impressions are everything. So if you're looking

20:59

to make an impact this year, time to start transforming

21:01

content and bring your creative ideas to life.

21:04

Issue is the all one platform to create

21:06

and distribute beautiful digital content. From

21:08

marketing materials to magazines to portfolios

21:11

and so much more. Issue works seamlessly

21:13

with the tools you already use and love like

21:15

Canvas, Dropbox, Mailchimp, and in design.

21:17

Start using issue for free. Try it out

21:20

and explore premium features that offer a more

21:22

customized experience. They take your PDF

21:24

images and text transform them using

21:26

your design and issues templates to give you

21:28

a native experience on desktop, mobile

21:30

web, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and

21:33

all other social media. Get started with

21:35

issue today for free or sign up for an

21:37

annual premium account and get fifty percent

21:39

off when you go to issue dot com slash podcast.

21:41

And use promo code invisible. That's

21:44

ISSUU dot com slash

21:46

podcast and use promo code invisible at

21:48

checkout for a free starter account or

21:50

fifty percent off an annual premium account.

22:01

This show is sponsored by better help.

22:03

When you're at your best, you can do great things,

22:05

but sometimes life gets you bogged down.

22:07

And you may feel overwhelmed or like you're not

22:09

showing up the way you want to. Working with

22:11

a therapist can help you get closer to the best

22:14

version of you. You don't need to wait for

22:16

crisis to benefit from therapy. A

22:18

great therapist can save the day before

22:20

the day needs to be saved. If you're thinking

22:22

about giving therapy a try, better help is great

22:25

option. It's convenient, flexible, affordable,

22:27

and entirely online. Just fill out

22:29

a brief questionnaire to get matched with licensed therapist

22:31

and switch to therapists anytime at

22:33

no additional charge. If you wanna

22:36

live a more empowered life, therapy

22:38

can get you there. Visit better help dot com

22:40

slash invisible today to get ten percent

22:43

off your first month. That's better help,

22:45

HELP dot com slash invisible.

22:56

Did you know several industries are heading for

22:59

a hiring boom this spring, like e commerce

23:01

and healthcare? Surprisingly hospitality is one

23:03

of the areas with the most growth. The hospitality

23:05

industry needs to hire for service positions,

23:07

main injury positions, and back office

23:10

operations positions too. If you need

23:12

to hire qualified candidates ASAP for

23:14

any of these industries or any other industry,

23:16

you need ZipRecruiter. And right now, you

23:18

can try it for free at zip recruiter dot

23:21

com slash nine nine. ZipRecruiter

23:23

uses its powerful matching technology to fund

23:25

most qualified candidates for a wide range of

23:27

roles. ZipRecruiter makes it easy to

23:29

send promising candidates a personal invite so

23:31

they're more likely to apply. Let

23:33

ZipRecruiter keep your team growing strong

23:35

no matter what the industry. Four to five employers

23:38

who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate

23:40

within the first day. Go see for yourself.

23:42

Go to this exclusive web address to try

23:44

ZipRecruiter for free. It's zip recruiter

23:47

dot com slash nine nine. Again, that's

23:49

zip recruiter dot com slash the numbers

23:51

nine nine. ZipRecruiter, the

23:53

smartest way to hire.

24:01

In nineteen seventy nine, less than a

24:03

year after Esther and George began booking

24:05

rock shows at Madden Wongs, A

24:07

different music promoter happened to find himself

24:10

in Chinatown. His name

24:12

was Kim Turner. Well, I

24:14

was looking for a place from the minute I got

24:16

here. Kim was fresh off the plane

24:18

from DC and already looking for a space

24:20

to run shows out of. One night, he

24:22

went to Madden Wongs in Chinatown, and he

24:24

thought that Central Plaza with its neon

24:26

lights and architecture should have more than

24:28

just one single rock club. It had

24:30

the potential to be an entire music scene.

24:33

So as he was walking out of Matamoros, he

24:35

got an

24:36

idea. I came down the stairs and I

24:38

looked across the way there. I saw

24:40

the Hong Kong restaurant, I go.

24:42

Wow. That would be a perfect place for a ban

24:44

for a night club. Kim saw that

24:46

literally steps away from Madam

24:48

Wang's there just happened to be another

24:51

struggling Chinese

24:52

restaurant, big enough to host the shows

24:54

he had in mind. It was called Hong

24:56

Kong Lowe.

24:57

So

24:57

I went over and I talked to introduced myself

25:00

to Bill Hong. We sat down and talked.

25:02

Bill Hong had been the owner of Hong Kong Lowe

25:04

for decades. And was a prominent and well liked

25:06

member of the Chinatown community. He

25:08

was the executive secretary of the Chinese

25:10

Chamber of Commerce where he helped new immigrants

25:12

settled in Chinatown in the early

25:14

seventies. He also helped organize

25:16

the annual Lunar New Year parade.

25:18

What was his personality like? I'm just

25:20

kinda curious. He

25:22

was very I don't know what it is. He

25:25

ran a good business. Well,

25:27

you saw it in one picture of

25:28

him. I didn't say anything. Right? Yeah. That that was

25:31

Good description of him. Kim was

25:33

referring to a photo of Bill that he'd sent

25:35

me before our interview. Bill's holding

25:37

up a lobster that he had just pulled out of

25:39

Hong Kong Lowe's live seafood tank.

25:42

He's wearing a bow tie and has this

25:44

huge playful grin across his round

25:46

face. He looks like a sweet happy

25:48

dad. No one I spoke with had a

25:50

single bad thing to say about him.

25:52

And luckily for Kim, Bill was open

25:54

to turning Hong Kong low into Chinatown's

25:57

second rock club. I said, well,

25:59

let me get back with you. I'll come back tomorrow. He

26:01

said, yeah. We'll we'll do this. Hong

26:04

Kong Lowe was a large two story building.

26:06

On the ground floor was the main dining

26:08

area, and on the second floor was a private

26:10

banquet room that Bill booked out for buffets

26:12

and special events. The banquet room

26:15

was mostly unused and their idea

26:17

was to convert that space into a new

26:19

club called the Hong Kong Cafe.

26:22

Kim brought on two other partners. A woman

26:24

named Susie Frank who died in twenty twenty

26:26

two and a man named Barry Seidel.

26:29

We opened that club not knowing that we

26:31

were gonna be a premier punk

26:34

club. We did not know that.

26:36

This is Barry Sidel. Like Esther

26:38

Wong, Barry did not originally set

26:40

out to be a champion for punk music. But

26:43

he and Kim had overheard the angry grumblings

26:45

of punk bands who had been booted out of Madden

26:47

Wongs and they saw an opportunity.

26:49

As soon as we opened, we realized that

26:51

we had an enemy next door that

26:54

was threatening all the bands So

26:56

then we started to become aware of,

27:00

oh, got so many punk bands that

27:02

were not being used. People

27:04

were afraid of them. And we figured,

27:06

what the hell?

27:08

We could really do

27:10

something with these bands if we can

27:12

get by with it. If we can handle it.

27:15

Barry and Kim built a stage from scratch

27:17

and published a press release for the official

27:19

June fifth, nineteen seventy nine

27:21

opening of the brand new Hong Kong.

27:23

And cafe. It advertised the

27:25

best in

27:26

rock, live seafood, and live

27:28

entertainment. And every choice that

27:30

Madam Wang's made the guys at the Hong

27:32

Kong purposely went the other direction.

27:35

Esther made madam Wang's twenty one and up,

27:37

so the Hong Kong was all ages. If

27:39

Madam Wang's was going to cast out the unruly

27:42

punk

27:42

bands, the Hong Kong would take the

27:44

men. Even if they were

27:46

trouble, The first night

27:49

that we were running a big punk show,

27:51

everybody said watch out for Black Randy.

27:55

I said, what's what's

27:56

that?

27:57

They were referring to Black Randy and the Metropon.

27:59

You know, I I'm new in LA here. You know?

28:02

They said, well, just watch out for Black Randy. He's

28:04

toilet breaker. I

28:06

said, watch a toilet breaker. That

28:07

one actually turned out to be pretty self explanatory.

28:10

So then I so over the toilets broken.

28:14

Water all over the place. So that

28:16

was one of the first lessons

28:18

that we

28:19

had. And if you're listening,

28:22

Randy, we're on to you.

28:27

The shows took a toll on the Hong

28:29

Kong Cafe, but Barry Kim

28:31

and Bill eventually worked out a deal that

28:33

any damage done to the club would be taken

28:36

out of the band's cut of the

28:37

night. Bill was kinda happy, go lucky

28:39

guy. You know, he was picking up bottles,

28:41

you know, in the plaza. He just you know, he

28:43

had a smile. He always had a little chuckle. He

28:46

said, hey. It's kinda like maybe a cost

28:48

of doing business.

28:49

This is Ken Chan. His family owns

28:51

Phoenix bakery, which is a business that's been in

28:53

Chinatown for over eighty years.

28:56

He says that in the beginning, both

28:58

Esther and Bill got some pushback from the local

29:00

community because of some

29:01

vandalism, but Esther and Bill

29:03

stuck up for the shows. There were some

29:05

vandalism, there was some trash, you know,

29:07

every night they, you know, bail would go out there

29:10

with a broom, and he starts

29:12

sweeping up stuff. Bill would

29:14

tell me, hey, you know, I gotta keep the place up

29:16

and

29:16

running. I gotta pay my rent. I gotta pay my staff.

29:18

The shows and audiences could get chaotic,

29:21

but it was all worth it to draw bigger crowds

29:24

into central plaza. Bigger crowds

29:26

meant more money spent at the bar and in

29:28

the restaurant, which went straight to

29:30

Bill. We were both helping each other out.

29:33

He was given us a place to do our

29:35

business, and he was doing

29:37

well with all the people, you know, coming in and

29:39

not only would they go down each each dinner

29:41

downstairs, but then they would come upstairs and

29:43

direct

29:44

to, you know, and watch advance. And

29:46

although it was mainly a business decision

29:48

for Bill, the Hong Kong Cafe ended

29:50

up becoming hugely important to

29:52

the Pungsten.

29:54

It gave a forum to people that

29:56

might have a difficult time finding

29:58

a place to to perform.

30:00

Here's Alice Bag again. She appreciated

30:03

that the Hong Kong was a place where artistic

30:05

expression could run rampant.

30:07

People like her had the freedom to get weird

30:09

and experimental on stage. I

30:12

just wanted to say that one of the most impactful

30:15

shows that I saw at the Hong Kong Cafe

30:18

was Joanna Went. Have you ever

30:20

heard of Joanna

30:20

Went? Here's Barry again. Here remembers

30:23

this show very well. Yeah.

30:25

Joanna came to me and she wanted

30:27

to play the Hong Kong. Well, she's a

30:29

performance artist and she does weird

30:31

stuff. So I said said, what

30:33

do you do? And as

30:36

far as I can remember word for word,

30:38

she said, well, first,

30:41

I covered the stage with a plastic sheet.

30:44

And and there's

30:46

a lot of blood. And it's

30:49

kinda

30:49

messy, but I clean up afterwards.

30:52

You can watch some of Joanna Went's work online,

30:54

and to be honest, it will probably

30:57

up little

30:58

bit. But

30:59

to her credit, she did clean up afterwards.

31:01

You know, that's something that made

31:04

the Hong Kong cafe really unique.

31:06

Like, that it would host a performance

31:08

artist that was known for, like,

31:12

being a little bit on control for

31:14

using stuff like that

31:16

we get on the

31:17

furniture, get on the floor, get on the customers,

31:19

and they weren't afraid of that. And

31:21

the blood soaked shows were blowing

31:23

up. Kids who were turned away at the

31:25

door were scaling the roof and breaking

31:28

in through the air conditioning ducts.

31:30

Kim Turner told me that one time a person

31:32

was so desperate to get into a show

31:35

that he fell through the vent and nearly impaled

31:37

himself on the drummer's high hat.

31:40

And it wasn't just punks. All sorts

31:42

of people heard the buzz around the Hong Kong cafe

31:44

and started showing up in Central Plaza.

31:47

John Belushi used to come in all the time.

31:49

And and also Donna Summer became

31:51

a friend of mine. She's very small. And

31:53

she loved the Hong Kong cafe and

31:56

she would come in and I'd say Donna, you

31:59

must wear this hat and go sit in that

32:01

corner because if they knew that was Donna's

32:04

summer, they would have ripped her

32:06

apart. Did

32:08

disco Queen, you know? Night

32:13

after night, punk bands kept the second floor

32:15

of Hong Kong lows packed. Maybe

32:17

even two

32:18

packed. The place wasn't that big.

32:21

I I think our the

32:23

legal crowd in there was only two hundred

32:25

and fifty. And we would put

32:27

maybe four hundred people in there. And

32:30

downstairs in the restaurant, I used

32:32

to get scared because you could look up at

32:34

the ceiling. And when there was,

32:36

like, four hundred people in there jumping

32:38

around and doing a wash pit and everything else

32:40

going on, you could see the ceiling just

32:43

kind of bouncing up and down.

32:45

It was kinda scary. We got busted

32:48

by the fire department many times for

32:49

overcrowding. Madam Wang

32:52

probably called them. One

32:55

person who was not a fan of the Hong

32:57

Kong's chaotic, punk loving vibe,

32:59

was Esther Wong.

33:01

She would be sitting because both

33:03

clubs were on the second level.

33:05

This is Kim Turner again, Berry's other

33:07

partner at the Hong Kong. And

33:09

you could see her behind

33:11

her bars looking, you know,

33:14

with her binoculars into our club, seeing what

33:16

was going on. In the

33:18

beginning, Esther was actually quoted in the

33:20

LA times welcoming the competition in

33:22

Chinatown, but that attitude quickly

33:24

changed.

33:26

She didn't talk very openly about why

33:28

she didn't like the Hong Kong Cafe, so

33:30

it was assumed that it was just sheer territorialism

33:33

on her

33:33

part. But it went deeper than that.

33:36

I think she she felt like there was a rivalry

33:38

and, like, the Hong Kong campaign's, like, said,

33:41

culture was disrespect fault to her.

33:44

As far as I know, Esther didn't have a problem

33:46

with Bill Hong, but she was not

33:48

a fan of Barry and Kim. A

33:50

naval started when Barry took out an ad in

33:52

the weekly promoting the opening of the Hong

33:54

Kong Cafe. Barry took

33:57

a swipe at Madden Wongs by writing You've

33:59

tried the first and

34:00

finest, now tried the biggest

34:02

and the best.

34:03

I thought it was very funny. She did not

34:05

like that stuff. At all.

34:07

It then snowballed when Esther's then promoter

34:10

instituted a three to four week cooling

34:12

period for bands that played the Hong Kong.

34:15

To them, it just made business sense that

34:17

they wouldn't want to book a band that had just

34:19

played the venue thirty yards away

34:21

the night before.

34:23

But most people interpreted this as a

34:25

blanket ban on any ban that played the

34:27

Hong Kong Cafe. This policy,

34:30

along with the fact that Esther stopped booking

34:32

punk bands, gave her a reputation for

34:34

being vindictive. It also drew

34:36

a line in the sand in central plaza. On

34:38

one side of the courtyard was Esther Wong in

34:41

her skinny tie wearing new weight

34:42

bands. And on the other, was

34:44

the Hong Kong and the Punks?

34:46

Yeah. I mean, they were, like, steps away

34:48

from each other, like, Cape Corner. I

34:51

am very, very close So

34:53

you can actually see, like, you

34:55

know, the new wave audience lined

34:57

up for a show at Matamoros

35:00

and, like, the punk rock audience lined up

35:02

at the Hong Kong Cafe. The

35:04

LA press got wind of this tension in

35:06

Chinatown and stoked the flames of

35:08

the feud. The local media

35:10

gave the whole clash an unfortunate

35:12

nickname. I

35:13

guess we're gonna get into the wanton wars

35:15

now. I might as well. Right? Yeah.

35:19

The Wantan Wars. It was

35:21

also dubbed the Chinatown Syndrome, and

35:23

then thank God later just referred to as the Chinatown

35:25

Punk Wars.

35:27

Barry openly admits that the war between

35:29

the Hong Kong and Madam Wang's was gend

35:31

up by the media. The tall tale

35:34

of these two warring restaurants was media

35:36

gold. But the press also recast

35:38

the godmother a punk into a new role because

35:40

like every good

35:41

story, the Chinatown punk wars

35:43

had to have good guys and bad guys.

35:46

And the villain was an obvious choice.

35:50

So when the press would

35:52

hear something that she would say or complain

35:54

about, which was a lot of things, I guess.

35:57

They would come running in. They would

35:59

take her story. Then they'd come to me.

36:01

And I, of course, would the nice guy from

36:04

New York that everybody loved and

36:06

anybody can play the Hong Kong, you know.

36:09

He says that he remembered journalists telling

36:11

him that when they came to do stories about

36:13

the Hong Kong at the time, they would photograph

36:15

him in flattering ways. They'd

36:17

stage him with flowers and potted plants

36:19

to make him look endearing like a harmless

36:22

woodland

36:22

creature. But on the flip side with

36:24

Esther They would shoot her

36:27

from the ground up. They told

36:29

me that that's what they would do and

36:31

because it made her look like

36:33

evil. The Chinatown Punk

36:35

Wars generated a lot of attention for the

36:37

Hong Kong Cafe. And Barry says,

36:39

at

36:40

times, he even took advantage of this

36:42

dynamic. Whenever Madam Wang

36:44

was not complaining, it was

36:46

not good for business. So we

36:48

would do something to make

36:50

her complain, and then we would just I didn't

36:52

know. I didn't do it. I don't know what she's

36:54

talking about. You

36:55

know? The most infamous example

36:57

of this was an

36:58

elaborate Frank called the Trojan tape.

37:00

The story involved a musician named Dwight

37:03

Twilley who was releasing a new album.

37:05

At the time, clubs like Madame Wongs

37:07

had sound guys who played cassettes over

37:09

the speakers in between musical acts, so

37:11

the audience would have something to listen to. And

37:13

with White Twilio's new album coming out that week,

37:16

Barry got an idea.

37:20

What we did is I got my friend Kenny

37:22

who's who does a little disc jockey kind of

37:24

thing as a joke all the time. So I said, come

37:26

on, Kenny. Listen. We're gonna get the Dwight

37:29

twolly tape and very carefully

37:32

open the salafane, open

37:35

the tape, and then you go to

37:37

like the second

37:38

cut. A few minutes into the cassette,

37:41

Barry and his friend recorded a secret message,

37:44

resealed the tape, and then sent it to Esther

37:46

along with a forged note from Twilio.

37:49

Sure enough, thinking that it was a promotional gift.

37:51

Esther's soundperson played the cassette in

37:53

the club that

37:54

night, and halfway through track two,

37:56

the music cut out and a voice said,

37:58

Come on over to the Hong Kong. It's the best place

38:00

in China down just couple of hops and jumps

38:03

away from you, from where you are, you know,

38:05

whatever. Anyway, I I had

38:07

lot of fun with that. So did so

38:09

did the

38:09

press. They liked it. But Esther

38:12

Wong did not. According to witnesses

38:14

that night, Ester was fuming and

38:16

lost it in front of the entire club.

38:19

Berry had lots of stories like

38:21

the Trojan tape. As you could tell,

38:23

he had a lot of fun with the Chinatown

38:25

Punkwares. Unlike Esther,

38:28

he always came out on the other side unscathed.

38:31

Madam Wang was was the

38:33

nasty club owner, and Barry

38:36

Seidell and Kim. We

38:38

were the nice guys from the east coast that

38:40

didn't wanna hurt anybody. We just

38:43

wanted to be good guys, you know. And

38:45

that's the way it played. Some

38:48

of the things we did to

38:50

her behind

38:53

the scenes

38:54

to make her keep going because she was serious.

38:57

We knew it was funny. She did not.

39:00

It wasn't funny to Esther because she and

39:02

Barry were very different people

39:04

with very different stakes. Ester

39:06

wasn't some young white dude who was in it for

39:08

a good time. She was a sixty two year

39:10

old immigrant entrepreneur who was constantly

39:13

being criticized for the way she ran her business.

39:15

In an article from nineteen seventy nine,

39:18

Esther said of Barry and Kim, quote,

39:20

they can go to hell. They're the lowest of

39:22

the low. I don't want them here.

39:24

I don't care what they say. They're liars.

39:27

I hate them. If

39:29

you just went off the context of that article, She

39:32

sounded unhinged. But

39:34

this was a few months after the Trojan tape incident,

39:36

and after hearing some of the things Barry put

39:38

her through, I get why she seemed so

39:40

angry. This was her restaurant and

39:42

her livelihood. Her

39:45

frustration was justified, but in press

39:47

and in the wider music scene, she started

39:49

to earn a very specific kind of

39:51

reputation. Yeah. I

39:52

think it was a stereotype like dragon lady,

39:55

they used to call her.

39:56

Jonathan Daniel, madam Wang's booker

39:58

again. People didn't realize

40:00

how hard it was to

40:02

be a woman in a

40:04

let alone, like, not a white woman,

40:06

doing that, like, it's insane that

40:09

she did that and pulled it up, but people didn't

40:11

realize that. All the things that were her strengths

40:13

became like the things that people with

40:16

pick on his stereotype.

40:18

Because she had the audacity to make her own

40:20

business decisions and stand up for herself,

40:23

Ester went from being called the godmother

40:25

of punk to the dragon

40:27

lady. I

40:28

repeated that without really

40:30

thinking about what it meant. Ellis

40:32

Bag again. And now I I realized

40:35

that that is a racist

40:37

churn, so I wanna apologize

40:39

if you know, I I would

40:41

apologize for my ignorance for

40:44

for using a a term like that.

40:46

I I think it's easy to pick

40:49

on people who

40:51

you might see as like having less

40:53

power than than other people. So

40:56

if this was a club on

40:58

the west side with and

41:01

and it was run by an affluent white

41:03

man. You might just think that's

41:05

a business decision.

41:08

Punk Music in Chinatown burned bright,

41:11

but it burned fast. Within

41:13

a few years, the genre had evolved, and

41:15

by nineteen eighty one, bands like the

41:18

bags, the alley cats, and the

41:19

dills, who up to find the sound of first

41:21

wave LA punk had drifted out

41:23

of the scene. Hank wasn't dying,

41:26

but it was changing. The

41:28

music was being overtaken by hardcore

41:31

bands and audiences. It was

41:33

faster, harder, more aggressive,

41:36

intended to bring in a very different

41:38

crowd.

41:39

Yeah. I think we started seeing, like, a

41:41

a skin head ethos and

41:43

also, like, a white

41:45

male jocks. Getting into

41:48

the slant pit and kind of

41:50

like taking it to a place where it wasn't

41:52

fun or the women that used to

41:54

be at the front of the stage suddenly

41:57

felt like uncomfortable being

42:00

there because they would get, you know,

42:02

they were they were gonna get hurt.

42:09

The party was over for the Hong Kong Cafe

42:11

as well. Despite its popularity,

42:13

they closed down shop in nineteen eighty

42:15

one, after just a year and a half.

42:19

There

42:19

wasn't

42:19

much money at all. And I

42:23

just got to a point Kim actually

42:25

said to me, he said I'd like to close after

42:27

New Year's if that's

42:28

okay. I said it's okay with me.

42:30

The Hong Kong Cafe was the last

42:32

time either Barry or Kim worked in the

42:34

music industry in any meaningful

42:36

way.

42:38

Esther stuck it out with madam Wang's longer

42:40

and the party raged on for a few more

42:42

years. Her clubs managed to survive

42:44

punk and the introduction of MTV

42:46

in the early nineteen

42:47

eighties. But after a while, A hassle

42:50

just wasn't worth it anymore.

42:52

The improbable alliance that Esther formed

42:54

with her rock seeking customers in Chinatown

42:56

had come apart. In nineteen

42:58

eighty six, she told the LA Times

43:00

quote, the kids that come here

43:02

now, they me crazy. They

43:05

come here and they act like spoiled brats. Some

43:07

of them plugged up my toilets, and one band

43:09

set fire to some paper towels and set up

43:11

our sprinkler

43:12

system, flooding the whole basement. It's

43:14

got me pretty discouraged.

43:16

After that fire in nineteen eighty six, Esther

43:18

announced that she was closing Madame Wong's

43:20

East in Chinatown. It's not clear

43:23

if she regretted the experience. But

43:25

when she was asked what she would miss most,

43:27

she concluded in her very straightforward

43:29

way. I'll miss the bands I liked.

43:32

But I don't think I'll miss anything else,

43:34

not anymore. In

43:37

nineteen ninety one, After featuring

43:39

bands like REM, Guns and Roses,

43:42

and the red hot chili peppers. Madam

43:44

Wang's West closed its stores as well.

43:47

By this time, Esther was well into

43:49

her

43:49

seventies, and the music landscape

43:51

was a completely different place. Ester

43:55

Wong died from emphysema in two thousand

43:57

five at the age of eighty eight. Even

44:00

though her legacy was disputed over

44:02

the

44:02

years, the LA Times uulogized

44:04

her as the godmother of punk.

44:07

You

44:07

know, handed to them in man and woman, you know,

44:09

they thought of something needed. They brought another crowd

44:11

in. This is Ken Chan from

44:13

Phoenix bakery again. Ken

44:16

gets why the punk thing fascinated so many

44:18

people, but he also kind of casually

44:20

waves off this moment in the neighborhood's history.

44:23

He's seen these fads come and go over the

44:25

years. I think the punk rock, you

44:27

know, It was an era. It

44:29

was a time, but it brought people in the Chinatown.

44:32

You know, I think they maybe saw something

44:34

on Chinese agriculture for maybe they saw

44:36

some nicknames, but they got little of something in their

44:38

memory bank. Chinatown may have been,

44:40

you know, deserted may have been

44:42

closed, but You know, we had good

44:44

time. These

44:48

two rock clubs meant so much

44:50

to people in the punk scene. But to

44:52

someone like Ken, they're just a couple of

44:54

stops on a walking tour of Central Plaza.

44:57

These days, they're just too many

44:59

bigger things to worry about. The

45:01

neighborhood moved on, and after

45:03

the punks left, the art galleries moved

45:05

in, and then the hipster restaurants. And

45:07

then the developers. Punk

45:10

ended up just being a phase that, like

45:13

so many people, Chinatown

45:15

eventually grew out of.

45:22

1234.

45:32

Ninety nine percent invisible was produced this

45:34

week by Vivien Lane. Edited by Kelly

45:36

Prime, original music by Swan Rial

45:38

with Mia Byrne on guitar. Sound mix

45:40

by Martin Gonzalez. Back checking

45:42

by Graham Heisha. Delaney Hall is our

45:45

senior your editor, Kurt Kohl's Day is our

45:47

digital director. The rest of the team includes

45:49

Chris Barube, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher

45:52

Johnson, Jason Dleyonne, Lascher

45:54

Mendon, Jay up multinata Medina,

45:56

Joe Rosenberg, Sofia Klotzka, and

45:59

me, Romeo, Mars. The ninety nine percent

46:01

invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence.

46:03

Special thanks this week to Jan Lin and Pamela

46:06

Goodchild, Chip Kinman and Ron Louie

46:08

whose interviewers did not make it into the piece. But

46:10

were super helpful to the story. And

46:12

an extra special thanks to Lauren Smith,

46:14

the producer of Hollywood Harvey. Not only

46:17

did he allow us to use that rare interview

46:19

audio, investor Wong, he shipped VIV,

46:21

the DVD from across the country,

46:23

above and beyond. Ninety nine and Invisible

46:25

is part of the Stitcher and SiriusXM podcast

46:28

family. Now headquartered six blocks north

46:30

in the Pandora building. And beautiful.

46:33

Up ten. Oakland, California.

46:35

You can find the show and join discussions about the show

46:37

on Facebook. You can tweet me at roman Mars

46:40

and the show at nine nine pm I board. We're on

46:42

Instagram, Reddit, and TikTok two.

46:44

You can find links to other stitcher shows I love

46:46

as well as every past episode of ninety

46:48

9PI at 99PI

46:51

dot org.