0:06

I met Jeremy Deutsch a whole bunch of years

0:08

ago, and one thing which you will

0:10

soon find out, he is

0:13

wonderful. He's a character.

0:15

He is also a bottomless pit of

0:18

American presidential information

0:20

in trivia. So for

0:22

this President's Day, I thought to

0:25

bring my friend Jeremy on to teach

0:27

us all a thing or two about

0:29

our past presidents and some of

0:31

their strange habits. This

0:35

is a bit of optimism.

0:39

I can't tell you how excited I have been to talk

0:41

to you. You're one of my favorite people to

0:43

talk to because you have an encyclopedic

0:47

brain and encyclopedic knowledge

0:49

of obscure things in American history

0:52

and our presidents. And I

0:54

always learned something every time I talk to you. So I thought

0:56

I should not be selfish with these conversations.

0:59

I should share you and your

1:01

knowledge. Tell me about John

1:03

Quincy Adams. He's your favorite, right? Oh

1:06

yeah? I get excited about this guy because he

1:08

If you read what he wrote in

1:11

his inauguration speech, it was like very

1:13

progressive things. You know. He was talking about

1:15

ending slavery and the territories.

1:18

This is eighteen twenty four. Please

1:20

know that if you look at the first a presidents

1:23

or so. And you look at our founding fathers

1:25

and John Quincy Adams not a founding father.

1:27

His father was John Adams. But of the eight, John

1:29

Adams and John Quincy Adams were the only ones

1:32

that did not own slaves. Don't

1:34

think about that. They shore there from the

1:36

north. But they were big,

1:39

you know, abolitionists. And Abigail Adams

1:42

was probably the strongest voice in the Adams

1:44

family there on a very

1:47

very strong anti slavery platform.

1:49

So he, you know, in his inauguration,

1:52

wanted to talk about abolishing slavery,

1:55

you know, and the territories, like kind of a containment

1:57

strategy that we see later with a President

2:00

Lincoln, you know, certainly

2:02

adopted earlier by the Whigs. But he

2:04

also talked simon about a national

2:06

school system and a national roads

2:09

system. I mean again eighteen twenty

2:11

four. We didn't see a national road system

2:13

until Eisenhower in fifty six, right in

2:15

the interstate. So this was a

2:17

person who was a big

2:20

academic like his dad, just

2:22

an intellectual, giant, arrogant

2:26

like his dad. He wanted to make certain everybody

2:28

knew he was the smartest guy in the room, and unlike

2:30

his dad, who had a little bit of a sense of humor. John

2:33

Quincy Adams no sense of humor at

2:35

all. So like a really

2:37

tough time. What happened to him after his one

2:39

term presidency. Well, this is where

2:41

it gets really cool and hopefully we still have

2:43

your listeners. Okay, he

2:46

was really devastated. I think they would

2:48

during his presidency and afterwards. I think some would

2:51

probably say there's a clinical depression, very

2:53

sad. What is he going to do? His

2:55

parents were very tough on him, okay,

2:58

and he started writing a biography

3:01

about his dad and working on

3:03

some other things. He's like, nah, I'm not fulfilled. And

3:05

then he found his why

3:08

and it was this. It was getting

3:10

elected to Congress. Yeah, that was a tactical

3:12

thing, but he was like kind of our first

3:15

single issue candidate, and

3:17

that was to end slavery. When he went

3:19

form being the president to going to Congress. Correct,

3:22

Wow, that doesn't happen very often. No, the

3:24

only one to do it, and actually Simon

3:27

is he served eighteen years in the

3:29

House and many

3:31

would probably say the impact that he had was

3:33

super significant. And here's where I get

3:36

super excited about John Quincy Adams. There

3:38

was a gag order. I believe

3:40

it was in fact for sixteen years

3:43

where you were not allowed to mention the

3:45

word slavery, not on the House floor,

3:48

not in committees, and if you did,

3:50

you could be you know, censured.

3:53

Right, there would be some type of rebuke towards

3:56

you. You could potentially be

3:59

expelled from the House, wow, and

4:01

thrown out of Congress if you mentioned the word slavery.

4:03

Well, you know, John Quincy Adams, I'm

4:06

the former president of the United States, who is going

4:08

to kick me out? Okay? And

4:11

he actually does something quite

4:14

brilliant. He drafts

4:16

like a resolution and

4:18

he mentions the word slavery as

4:20

many times as you can humanly mention

4:22

it in one document. Okay,

4:25

And now he's going

4:28

to be censured, potentially expelled

4:30

from the House. But

4:33

here's the beautiful thing. He had

4:35

unlimited time to defend himself.

4:38

So he spent two weeks

4:41

giving these speeches on

4:43

the floor of the US House of Representatives,

4:45

talking about how horrible a

4:48

slavery was, how it needs to be ended.

4:51

And that day they would his

4:53

supporters would take his speeches and

4:55

they would turn them into pamphlets and

4:57

they would distribute to pamphlets to sit as

5:00

because they were trying to change

5:03

the tide on public opinion

5:05

on slavery. And this was all

5:07

driven by John Quincy Adams,

5:09

and in fact, it took him eight years,

5:12

but he defeated the gad rule

5:15

and once again the word slavery

5:17

was allowed to be mentioned in the house.

5:20

I'll tell you the other thing. And do

5:23

you remember did you see the movie Amistad,

5:26

Yes, yes, okay, Well,

5:29

so he was the one,

5:32

okay who defended the slaves

5:34

and the mutiny that occurred on that ship. And he did a

5:36

pro bono, he didn't charge, and he

5:38

gave two days

5:41

of oral arguments. The case made it all

5:43

the way to the Supreme Court. He gave two days of oral

5:46

arguments. He was victorious.

5:49

And that was the type of guy John

5:52

Quincy Adams was. One of the

5:54

things that I don't think a lot of people realize is how

5:56

the debate and the discomfort of slavery,

6:00

how much it has been present

6:02

throughout the history of this nation. That it was

6:04

contentious for our whole history to the point

6:06

where they banned the mention of the word

6:09

on the house floor is astonishing

6:11

because they just didn't even want to talk about it. How

6:13

do you get enough votes to restrict

6:15

a word that needs to be talked about on the House

6:18

floor where they're you know, and it takes the courage

6:20

of John Quincy Adams to put his career on the

6:22

line. And maybe someone else couldn't have done it. He

6:24

just had to have been a former president. I'd have to go back

6:26

and look, but I think the gag order was an effect for sixteen

6:28

years. Wow. And I think this

6:31

tension that you talk about, well,

6:33

that also created the riff between Jefferson

6:35

and Adams. You know, if you famously hear

6:37

about that they were friends and then they

6:39

weren't friends. You look at the tension,

6:41

and I think historians would say Jefferson

6:44

became very envious of

6:47

Adams because Adams really

6:49

believed in the horrors of slavery

6:52

and that people should

6:54

not be slaves period, full stop. Right.

6:57

And you know, Thomas Jefferson wrote

6:59

about all men are created equal,

7:02

but did he really believe that all

7:05

A lot of former presidents

7:08

when they passed away, they

7:10

freed their slaves, but

7:13

Thomas Jefferson didn't do that. I

7:15

think you're spot on. Since before

7:18

our country was founded, and

7:20

certainly all the way through the Civil War

7:22

and then even after the Civil

7:24

War, this nation has a complicated

7:26

history, and we're in a period now

7:29

where one side romanticizes

7:31

our history and the other side demonizes

7:33

it, and I think both

7:35

are right. There are some progressive and romantic

7:38

ideals that come from our history,

7:40

but there's some darkness as well. We

7:42

have a checkered past that make us who we are.

7:45

One of the reasons I like talking to you is

7:47

sure, it's fun to talk about obscure presidents and all

7:49

the kooky things that happened, but I think it reminds

7:52

us just of the fragility of a nation

7:54

and the fragility of the people who lead it. Alcoholics

7:57

and murder and intrigue and

7:59

so refuge and back office deals

8:02

like these are not new things, and they are part of

8:04

our history. I think the important

8:06

thing is not to necessarily weigh

8:09

in on it, but rather to know about it, because

8:11

I think knowing about the past informs how we do

8:13

with the current state. You're absolutely right, and there's a checkered

8:16

past, and it's important that we study

8:18

it, and it's important that we lift up

8:20

the heroes that you know. Again,

8:22

I come back to John Quincy Adams, and there's many

8:25

more that had the courage

8:27

to say, no, this is

8:29

wrong, this is eighteen twenty four. Look

8:32

where they were, Look how visionary they were

8:34

and calling it out. Those heroes

8:36

risked their careers to

8:38

do something that they believe was the right thing to

8:40

do. You know, like LBJ. Lyndon

8:43

Johnson lost the South,

8:45

the Democrats ruled the South, and

8:48

he did what the right thing to do was for

8:51

civil rights, knowing he would

8:53

completely destroy his own political

8:55

career, but he would also lose the South. And

8:57

I don't know a politician now who'd risk

9:00

the party's presence in any area in

9:02

this country because it was the right thing to do. And

9:04

he was a complicated figure as well, very

9:07

complicated. I mean, we can talk hours

9:09

about LBJ, who's fascinating,

9:12

and he was one of the most effective

9:14

majority leaders ever. You know what

9:17

he was able to accomplish, and certainly the

9:19

tragic passing and assassination of Kennedy,

9:21

but in the first six months he accomplished more legislatively

9:24

than the Kennedys did in three years. Right,

9:27

I mean, you can go on and in that spot

9:29

on, I think it's the courage to

9:32

stand up and the willingness to

9:34

know that this may not be popular and I

9:36

may lose everything that I have. And

9:39

if you study our first impeachment

9:42

Andrew Johnson, So he was impeached and

9:44

only survived the Senate vote

9:46

of conviction by one vote, right correct,

9:49

And he was a Democrat. Lincoln was

9:51

a Republican. Johnson not

9:53

many people liked him. In fact, when

9:56

he was sworn in as vice president,

9:59

he was so drunk at

10:01

the inauguration he

10:03

barely could take the oath and

10:05

he was asking, like, who's the secretary

10:09

of war? Who are these other cabinet members?

10:11

And they had to do this whole thing to kind of cover

10:13

up, and they said, no, no no, no, his back.

10:16

He was in pain, he was on medicine.

10:18

He wasn't drunk. And in fact, they

10:21

it was such an embarrassing period that he left DC

10:23

for like one hundred days and they had to go and find

10:25

him after Lincoln was assassinated, and I I believe

10:27

he was drunk again. It was like

10:30

a really bad situation. He was not popular.

10:33

Congress couldn't stand this guy. You

10:35

say that he fell by one vote,

10:38

well, Republicans had the votes,

10:40

They had two thirds of the votes to impeach him. I think

10:42

they had like thirteen, They had a buffer

10:44

of thirteen, and guess what, Simon

10:47

thirteen stood up

10:49

and did not vote to impeach him.

10:53

And all those Republicans who

10:55

did not vote to impeach

10:57

the Democrat, they all essentially

11:00

lost and never came back to the Senate. They

11:02

stood up, they did what they thought

11:04

was right. This is where I talk about

11:06

one of the golden episodes of the Senate. The

11:08

Senate protected the presidency because

11:11

Congress passed the law basically saying, hey, listen,

11:13

guy, if you want to fire somebody,

11:15

even though you appointed them and we may have consented

11:18

to them, well, if you want to fire them, you

11:20

have to get our permission to fire anybody.

11:24

And Johnson's like, nah, forget it, no, come

11:27

on, I'm the president. I don't have to listen to this and

11:29

I don't have to follow that, and that kind of really egged

11:31

them on. But really, those Republicans

11:34

stood up, they did the right thing, and they protected

11:37

because think about this, If that went the

11:39

other way, we could be impeaching presidents

11:42

left and right because of their hr

11:44

issues who they hire and fire.

11:47

And that was really a principal

11:49

stamp. So who's the most obscure president

11:51

that most people have forgotten about, that

11:54

history's forgotten about. There's a few, and there's

11:56

actually a professor who studied

11:58

this since nineteen seven and he's asked,

12:00

like college students to list all

12:03

the presidents. And there's typically

12:05

a couple that are at the top of the obscure

12:07

list, a guy named Chester Arthur

12:10

who typically comes in around seven percenters

12:13

served after a Garfield

12:15

was assassinated. But it's typically

12:18

a tie between Chester Arthur, who owned eighty

12:20

pairs of pants, by the way, which

12:23

is a lot of pair of pants. There

12:27

was this general Zachary

12:29

Taylor. You know, it's

12:32

eighteen forty nine. They're

12:34

dedicating the Washington

12:36

Monument, not complete yet, but

12:38

it's the dedication Zachary Taylor.

12:41

By the way. That's the only monument in DC.

12:44

Please know that everything else is

12:46

a memorial, but there can only be one monument. So

12:48

this guy, you know, they do the ribbon cutting, he

12:50

goes back to the White House and he talks about how he

12:52

drinks like ice milk and eats

12:55

cherries and then he dies, you

12:57

know, a few days later, and they thought he was actually

12:59

poisoned. I don't think he was, and

13:02

Millard Fillmore becomes President of

13:04

the United States. He signs

13:06

the Compromise of eighteen fifty

13:09

in the whole entire cabinet resigns

13:11

in Fillmore goes down as the most obscure

13:14

president. He was from

13:16

New York. They were farmers in

13:18

upstate New York. Not good agriculture. His

13:21

father basically

13:24

sends him into indentured

13:26

servitude if you will, He saves

13:28

as much money as he can and he buys

13:30

his freedom, and then he ends up

13:32

walking one hundred miles back

13:35

to his house, not on one day. The

13:37

only book he read

13:40

up until the age seventeen was

13:42

the Bible. He educated

13:44

himself. He was a very

13:47

dashing, very handsome

13:49

guy. Queen Victoria said she

13:51

thought he was the most handsome man she's

13:54

ever seen. And you

13:56

will and behold, he becomes president, very

14:00

forgotten, really really tough, tough

14:03

time. He was the one who created the White House Library.

14:06

Isn't that cool. Here's a person who

14:08

educated himself and knew the value

14:11

of education, and they created that. And

14:13

then that gets you right into like eighteen fifty

14:15

six, another obscure president

14:17

named James Buchanan. You

14:19

and I have talked about this, like everybody was talking about

14:22

oh, mayor Pete, like, if he gets the nomination,

14:25

if he becomes president, he's gonna be our first gay president.

14:27

Wrong. James Buchanan.

14:30

James Buchanan was our only bachelor

14:32

president. He was roommates with

14:34

the only single vice president.

14:37

There was a guy before Buchanan

14:39

he was president. He was a Franklin Pierce,

14:42

very very very difficult presidency.

14:45

Drank a lot before he was sworn

14:47

in. His law school

14:50

friend died. They were going to a funeral to

14:52

train derails. One person dies

14:55

and that's his baby and he sees his baby

14:59

head skull crush right in front

15:01

of him. Oh, and Franklin Pierce

15:03

thought he was cursed. This was God's punishment

15:06

and he really turned into an alcoholic and

15:08

it was a very very tough period. But

15:11

Pierce had a vice president named Rufus King,

15:14

and Rufus King was our only single vice

15:16

president. And Rufus King and

15:18

James Buchanan were roommates

15:20

for like ten years. I mean, look, I know it was

15:22

a different time and the discussion of being

15:24

gay was not an open thing, But do

15:26

we have good evidence that Buchanan, rather

15:29

than just because he was a single guy you

15:31

know, do we have good evidence that he was in fact gay.

15:34

There's a note he wrote to his

15:36

house mother. So Rufus

15:38

King is appointed to

15:41

like ambassador of France going overseas,

15:44

you know somewhere right. They called them prime

15:46

ministers, our ministers at the time to Europe.

15:49

And here's a letter in

15:51

the eighteen forties or so where he

15:53

Buchanan writes his house mom and says, you know, I'm

15:56

louing other men and they're not

15:59

taking my advancements.

16:01

I don't know, do you want more evidence than that. I

16:03

mean, this was but time no

16:06

one, no one made an issue of it.

16:08

Yeah, and you know you think about I

16:10

think that's so fascinating. I mean, yeah,

16:13

Andrew Jackson called him mister

16:16

fancy and Nancy the pair homosexuality.

16:19

I don't believe was that word wasn't coined.

16:21

I think it was coined in Germany in the eighteen

16:24

sixties or so, so they

16:27

didn't make it a campaign issue. I know the

16:29

parties their names remain the same

16:31

sometimes, but their politics change, and we've

16:33

had different names for the parties. But

16:36

can you discern the

16:38

basic two points of view? Because the way I

16:40

like to describe politics, which is you

16:43

know, we have this thing called the Declaration of Independence,

16:46

All Men created Equal and dawd with these unalienable rights,

16:48

amongst which include life, liberty in the pursuit of happiness.

16:50

And we have a constitution that lays out a structure

16:53

for how we're going to advance that vision. And

16:55

the difference between the two political parties

16:58

is an interpretation of how we're

17:00

going to advance that vision. That's all it is. It's a debate

17:02

on should we do it this way or should we do it that

17:04

way? And depending on the

17:06

culture or the tastes of the day,

17:09

parties go in and out of favor because there

17:12

are points of view go in and out of favor. And

17:14

that's sort of how I've tried to explain the two

17:16

party system. It should be a debate.

17:19

It's not about right or wrong, but it's like, we believe

17:21

that the vision should be advanced this way. No,

17:23

no, no, no, we believe it should be advanced this way. But they should

17:25

both share the same vision. That's

17:27

why they should find common ground, right, because they

17:29

both believe and agree on the vision, just they

17:31

disagree on how to get there. And so throughout

17:34

American history we've had the Whigs, and we've

17:36

had the Democratic Republicans and all of these,

17:39

you know, different names for the parties. Are

17:41

there two basic points of view

17:43

that have always remained regardless of what the parties

17:45

have been called. That's a great question.

17:48

Maybe it's the

17:51

scope and size of government.

17:53

And I say maybe because

17:56

look, you know my background and I'm a Republican,

17:58

and you could say that, you know, the limited

18:01

government, the smaller government. Right,

18:03

That goes back to Washington, that debate.

18:06

Yeah, because it's it's Hamilton and Jefferson, right,

18:08

because Washington also warned about

18:10

his Farewell speech, you know, avoid the political

18:13

parties, right. And you

18:15

had somebody who was a Jeffersonian,

18:18

Thomas Jefferson, who believed

18:20

in a certain size and a

18:22

limited size of the government.

18:25

And then you had Hamilton, not president,

18:27

but very influential, who you

18:29

know, believed in a bigger, larger

18:32

role of the government. And that's probably

18:35

historically been the tug

18:37

of war all the way to

18:40

Reagan, maybe Bush. But

18:42

there's also been significant, I guess

18:44

expansions under Republicans in current

18:47

times, regardless of what the

18:49

parties have been called, whether it was the Whigs

18:51

of the Democratic Republicans, and Republicans

18:53

or Democrats were regardless of the names that they've taken,

18:56

they've been two basic interpretations

18:59

of how to advance towards the vision that is

19:01

the United States. One party has

19:03

always generally believed that government's

19:06

role is to intervene and help

19:08

as many people as possible achieve that vision,

19:11

and the other party has basically believed that government's

19:13

job is to do the basics, collect taxes,

19:16

defend the country, and basically let people

19:18

figure it out themselves and sort of stay out

19:20

of the way as much as possible. And regardless

19:22

of what the parties were called, that's basically

19:24

our two party system. Yeah, and the

19:27

challenge is it's kind of like fitting we're on the roof

19:29

when the two sides are fighting, and remember

19:32

Teva says, well, yeah, he's

19:34

right, and then here's the other argument and says,

19:36

well he's right, and then the

19:39

other guy says, well, they both can't be right, and it's

19:41

like, you're right right by both

19:43

sides are right, and it's just like, how

19:45

do you bring them together to do more things and solve

19:48

problems? Final question for you,

19:50

what, in your mind are some of the key lessons

19:52

that we can take away from some of

19:54

these obscure pieces of our history

19:57

that will inform or

20:00

help us improve modern

20:02

day tensions in our politics. There

20:04

were certainly very uncivil

20:07

times, but I think you

20:09

can look throughout history

20:11

where there were civil relationships

20:15

in a good way and impositive. And I'll

20:17

give you maybe two examples. Certainly,

20:19

the presidential transition of power is

20:22

so important to our country, right, and I mean James

20:25

Buchanan during Lincoln's inauguration

20:27

right before, says, you know, if you're

20:30

as happy as I am leaving

20:33

this place as you are,

20:35

mister Lincoln coming in the US, are

20:37

the most happiest man in the world. Right

20:40

during that period, and it was a lame duck period.

20:43

I think seven or eight states left

20:46

the Union even before Lincoln

20:48

was sworn in, and Buchanan

20:50

didn't do a thing, and Lincoln

20:53

inherited a big mess from Buchanan.

20:56

And if you look at all of Lincoln's speeches

20:59

and everything he said, how

21:01

many times did he blame James Buchanan

21:04

for all his problems? And the answer is

21:06

zero? And I think that's

21:08

really important. I am We've

21:11

started seen it with President Trump, we see

21:13

it with President Biden, and

21:15

it's blaming the others

21:18

for the problems that they have now. And

21:20

I think again, you know, being inspired to

21:22

paint a positive, forward looking

21:25

agenda, not looking back, yes, studying

21:27

the past, but looking forward. I think that's

21:29

really important, and I think we can draw

21:31

a lot from Lincoln on that. I'll close

21:34

with our guy who messed

21:36

up with the numbering system, Grover Cleveland

21:39

the two non consecutive terms. Who I

21:41

made this comment recently. I was comparing

21:44

President Obama to Grover

21:46

Cleveland, which I don't think anybody has done.

21:48

This is probably a first on your podcast, and

21:51

I was just talking about, Wow, we haven't seen like anybody's

21:54

political career go up so fast

21:56

since like Grover Cleveland, and like you

21:59

know, Barack Obama and went from like state senator

22:01

to US Senator to President of United States. Grover

22:03

Cleveland goes from like mayor of

22:06

Buffalo to governor to president in

22:08

three years. Beat that, okay,

22:11

but okay, So Grover Cleveland

22:13

loses to a guy Benjamin Harrison,

22:16

who, oh, by the way, has an addiction to cucumbers.

22:19

We won't get into that today. His dad,

22:21

yeah, Harrison's dad writes and he's like, hey man,

22:23

you got to lay off the cucumbers. Okay, they

22:26

were worried about he said his two vices

22:28

were cucumbers and cigars. You got to lay off

22:30

of it. But he was the grandson of

22:32

William Henry Harrison. William Henry

22:34

Harrison was the at that time the oldest president's

22:37

worn in, gives the longest inaugural

22:39

speech. He rides like back to the White House without

22:41

a hat on to show how youth fully is and he dies

22:43

like thirty days later pneumonia. Whatever

22:45

may have been shortest presidency. His

22:47

grandson becomes president. Oh, by the

22:49

way, his grandson gives Simon the shortest

22:52

inaugural speech. Okay,

22:54

it's inauguration and

22:57

it's raining, and you can look at the

22:59

photos and you can see

23:01

the former president, Grover

23:03

Cleveland is holding an umbrella over

23:06

Benjamin Harrison's head while

23:08

he's getting sworn in, and

23:11

Grover Cleveland says, it's the duty

23:13

of the former president to make certain

23:16

that the current president isn't

23:18

rained on. Isn't that something?

23:22

Wow? These are leaders,

23:25

and whether they're president or members of Congress

23:27

or on the town council, they

23:29

have a platform now bigger than they've

23:31

ever had before to inspire to

23:33

be positive, to do good things

23:36

and to have meaningful impact

23:38

and change. So if I can sum up

23:41

the lessons that you so eloquently shared

23:44

that to look to our past, the lessons that we

23:46

can learn in our modern day is play

23:49

the hand you're dealt like, don't worry about who

23:51

dealt it. Do the best you can with

23:53

the tools you've got, enact with civility.

23:56

Amen, we can't create the future by

23:58

clinging onto the past. Jeremy,

24:01

I love talking

24:03

to you. It's always such

24:05

a joy. I appreciate you taking

24:07

the time and helping me and anyone

24:09

who stayed listening learn

24:12

a little more about some of our obscure

24:14

American history and some of the checkered

24:16

past. I really appreciate

24:19

it. If

24:24

you enjoyed this podcast would like to hear more,

24:26

please subscribe wherever you like to

24:28

listen to podcasts. Until

24:30

then, take care of yourself, take

24:33

care of each other.