0:00

In two thousand and five, a book

0:02

came out which sold millions of copies

0:04

and stirred a lot of controversy.

0:07

It was called The Game, written

0:09

by Neil Strauss, and it's about

0:12

the years Neil spent living amongst the pickup artist

0:14

community, those awkward, borderline creepy

0:16

guys who use manipulation tactics

0:19

to pick up women. Neil has

0:21

totally reinvented himself since writing The

0:23

Game, and I wanted to speak with him about

0:25

walking away from that identity of success.

0:28

This led to a much deeper conversation about

0:30

what success even is and what

0:33

we owe ourselves versus what we owe

0:35

society. More with Neil

0:37

after this. Neil

0:43

Strauss never intended for the Game

0:45

to become a manifesto for desperate guys

0:47

trying to get laid, or a feminist

0:49

indictment against toxic masculinity.

0:52

He just wanted to tell story.

0:55

Then the book did well, really

0:57

well, and by any metric, was considered

1:00

wild success. But to Neil,

1:02

meaningful success has to be something

1:05

more than just money, more than

1:07

just the finite wins. Does meaning

1:09

have to be tied to outcomes? Or

1:12

is having the right intentions enough? This

1:14

episode comes with a bit of a warning. The

1:17

conversation will raise more questions

1:19

than it offers answers, as you will

1:21

hear. Neil and I do not see eye to eye

1:23

on everything. But the reason I love

1:25

talking to him is because he makes me

1:27

think. He challenges my ideas,

1:30

and I hope that's what this conversation does for

1:32

you as well. I hope it challenges you

1:35

about what the definition of success should

1:37

be. This is

1:40

a bit of optimism.

1:43

Your career is a fascinating one because

1:46

a lot of people in sort of authors

1:49

and stuff like that have an idea set and they sort of build upon the

1:51

idea set. You had an idea and

1:53

got very famous for an idea set that you

1:55

have almost entirely walked away from. Which

1:57

is the game? First

1:59

of all, well, I want to know the history of how the game

2:01

even came to be. I remember when

2:03

it came out and the buzz that the

2:06

stir that it caused. It was quite a sensation in

2:08

it today.

2:09

Yeah, I don't even think it would come out today.

2:11

Let's tell people what the game was, first of all.

2:13

Yeah, So and an answer

2:15

what the game was the same as how it came about? So that one

2:17

and the same thing, which is And I already had

2:19

a career prior to the game meeting. I was like writing

2:21

at the New York Times as a music critic, and I

2:24

go to all these concerts. I'd even go

2:26

on two earth rock bands for running for Rolling Stone,

2:28

so it'd be around a lot of energy,

2:31

sexuality, those kinds of things, and I was super

2:33

shy, really nebbish and nerdy

2:36

more so than I am now. And I wouldn't

2:38

even be able to have this conversation if not for the game

2:40

and looking in the eye and have this conversation and express myself.

2:43

So I just saw everyone having

2:45

all the fun. I was never the one having the fun, you know.

2:47

I went on to Earth Motley Crue and thought this is

2:49

going to be decadence, and maybe

2:51

it was, but not for me. Right. I'd

2:53

even go get backstage passes and hand them out hoping

2:55

to meet someone, and they just say thank you and go backstage

2:58

doing something wrong. Why why is everyone

3:00

else like I? Just again, I was really lonely,

3:03

and anyone I met, I'd end up like

3:05

in the friend zone while they're didting some guy

3:07

who's a jerk to them, and I'm like consoling

3:09

them. I even remember I did a book on Marilyn

3:11

Manson at the time, and his manager

3:14

remembered a story where like, I think I had a

3:16

crush on someone, I was like painting their room while

3:18

they went out on a date.

3:19

I was just the worst.

3:21

Like then, I had a book editor. I'd done

3:23

a couple books, and my book editor, HarperCollins,

3:25

came to me and said, I found this undercover

3:27

community of pickup artists and

3:30

the guys with that money looks fame,

3:32

and they've figured out how this whole

3:35

thing works. Do you want to do a

3:37

get collective information to how to book? I

3:40

said, listen, I'm a journalist for the New York Times, got

3:42

a serious career. That's not something I do. So

3:44

no thanks, but thank you thanks for thinking to me. But

3:47

secretly, I'm like, there's a community where these guys know this

3:49

stuff. So I'm

3:51

not having money looks for fame. I thought this is great.

3:54

So I began this double

3:56

life, like I changed my name and

3:59

I change everything. I had this double life that I was actually

4:01

scared of being found out. So I started meeting

4:03

these guys and their idea,

4:06

their personalities, their ideas were so fascinating,

4:08

and I thought, oh man, this this is a book.

4:11

And so I remember when I wrote the book,

4:14

I wanted to write under another name. I was so scared.

4:17

A lot of guys used

4:19

this book to pick up women, and

4:21

it was described

4:24

by the women as highly manipulative.

4:27

So it's interesting what the book

4:30

actually was versus how it was seen in the culture.

4:32

Right, there's a difference between they

4:34

say that the techniques the guys that pick up our is using

4:36

the book, and what the book is. Like. The book literally

4:38

begins it's the funniest thing, by the way, and this isn't

4:40

a bad thing. I don't mind. Like I think when you do create

4:43

something, you throw it in the culture and now it's out of

4:45

your control. Correct, And I'm happy they have any story

4:47

about it, Like I'm happy anyone's reading it, you know,

4:49

or read it. So it begins

4:51

with the greatest pickup urse in the world trying to kill himself

4:54

over a woman, like he's suicidal. It begins

4:56

to me taking too like a mental health crisis center.

5:00

Really a book that says this is going to end up well for you, you

5:02

know it like literally it begins with that guy

5:04

like and then the end is really about like

5:07

how it turns you in a robot and destroys

5:09

your personality. And to me, the game, again

5:12

I'm super naive at the time, but to me, the

5:15

game was a book about male and security, and

5:17

I literally thought, I really mean

5:19

this is when I wrote it. I thought women would have

5:21

more confidence when they saw how insecure

5:24

and fearful men were.

5:26

I have a female friend who read it specifically

5:29

so she could know when men were

5:32

gaining her and she tells this great story

5:34

of sitting on a plane and some guys, you know, saying

5:36

whatever he's saying. And I don't know, I don't remember

5:38

any of the principles like say something nice then insult

5:40

them like whatever it was, you know, some of these weird

5:42

principles. And she literally

5:44

turned them and goes, I read the game you can stop.

5:47

No, no, no, exactly. And there's there's so

5:49

many signs that it's so complicated and nuanced.

5:52

And for sure it ends with Lord

5:54

of the Flies, all these sure before toxic masculine

5:56

was a term, it ends with all these fake self

5:59

taught alpha males a house, all like trying

6:01

to out alpham hill each other. It's almost

6:03

like just become so toxic.

6:05

It's kind of a book about bro culture, isn't it. I Mean

6:07

it's like, that's what it is.

6:07

But here's the difference. It's

6:10

a book about nerdidvergens. Yeah, bros

6:12

don't read this book. Bros are they're

6:14

already like, you know, they don't need this. They're too cool,

6:16

you know, they already got off. Most of the people

6:19

I met, and there were, by the way, there are

6:21

a few like real monsters in that world, for

6:23

sure, but also of them met were Nerdi virtum,

6:25

people who were trying to figure out how to socially

6:27

interact and just needed a map.

6:29

I mean, I struggled with dating

6:32

most of my life, you know, and I've

6:34

talked about this publicly a lot of ADHD, and

6:36

so I overcompensated

6:39

for the ADHD by jacking

6:41

up with coffee before a date, right

6:44

out of fear of not being funny, of not

6:46

being charming, and so I needed to get, you

6:48

know, the boost of energy for the evening. And

6:51

I would come in like a bull in a china shop, you

6:53

know, And just I thought it was very

6:55

funny and charming. Problem was I was doing all

6:57

the talking, you know, right, I get

6:59

it that it's a story for neurodivergence. I wonder

7:01

what you said. You could never write that again today

7:04

you said A why and

7:06

B what about the

7:08

principles that you learn in the game could

7:11

be translated for people who are struggling with neurodivergence

7:13

and meeting people today.

7:14

I think you can still learn the same things, but without

7:17

the agenda or the goal of an outcome, Like, let

7:19

me, how do I start a conversation with someone? Like how

7:21

do I get comfortable with myself? How do I actually

7:23

connect? How do I

7:26

how do I ask somebody who I meet online like out

7:29

in person? What's a good way to do that? So the difference

7:31

is your goal to connect or is your

7:33

goal to like take right? And

7:35

I think that's what's the.

7:36

Difference I think in matter. So so

7:38

just share one of the tips, like if somebody you

7:41

know how to make somebody feel heard and seen? You

7:43

know, like, what are some of the good tips that because I

7:45

think people do struggle to connect. You know,

7:48

a lot of us are struggling to connect these days, and

7:50

there's much said about addictions to cel phones

7:52

and social media, being disconnected, COVID

7:54

blah blah blah. You know this goes on. So what

7:56

are some of the really great human

7:59

skills that you've learned and that actually

8:01

do help in genuine connection without some sort

8:03

of an agenda, I.

8:04

Think i'd have to ask that question with me now versus

8:06

me, then let's do that. I guess when the book

8:08

came out, I got a lot of calls from like salespeople, marketing

8:10

people, The FBI called me to come in and train their

8:12

agents, like, so I think those

8:15

applications, it's really just understanding

8:17

social dynamics, and I think it's really important.

8:20

So the first step, I think is just

8:22

really understanding social dynamics and how they work, and

8:24

what people want and what they're looking for and what their

8:26

agenda is. So I think one step

8:28

is just really understanding social nets. But I

8:30

would say, like the biggest thing is to

8:33

stop worrying about what other people think of you

8:36

and start realizing that they're worrying about what

8:38

you think of them. I'd say, the most freaking thing

8:40

I learned then, and I think it's even more that I do it,

8:42

maybe ten x more now, is

8:44

that I was really worried. I was walking around. Everyone's

8:46

just laughing, they're pointing, They're like, look at that guy, is sure

8:49

he's got big nose, He's like, arready's

8:51

a loser or whatever it is. And then you realize,

8:53

no, they're all worrying about being judged

8:55

by you. So instead of trying to take validation

8:58

from other people, giving people

9:00

validation.

9:01

Yeah, that is a wonderful

9:03

insight. While we're all walking around

9:06

worried about what people think of us, what we don't realize

9:08

is the walking around worried what people think of them.

9:10

That is such a brilliant insight. And to operate

9:12

from that point of view and to make somebody

9:14

feel seen or heard or understood is

9:16

about the best thing you can give to someone.

9:18

Yeah, and even here's an example of

9:20

how we don't do it. So we're in LA. I'd

9:22

say, you're at the LA stand and someone pulls up

9:24

in a bright yellow, loud Lamborghini

9:27

and gets out, and you right away you want to be like, what

9:29

a douchebag, right, or what

9:32

an asshole or whatever it is, But

9:34

instead you just want to want to say, like, hey, nice

9:36

car, man, Like that person just wants the driver

9:38

on the things. They just want them bald validation. You

9:41

can't judge the driver carry you don't want

9:43

people to see you so there's an exercise again, like I

9:45

really do think they're there to be seen. Yeah,

9:47

so there's an exercise where you to

9:49

get over social anxiety, you go

9:51

out and try to make three or four people feel better about

9:53

themselves that day by saying something kind

9:56

about them.

9:57

The best way to solve your problems is

9:59

to help other people solve the same problem. You

10:01

know, I've talked about the twelve step programs of

10:03

alcoholics, an Honys, or any other twelve step

10:06

program. Right. They know that if you mess to the first

10:08

eleven steps but not the twelfth, you're likely

10:10

to succumb to the disease. But if you mass the twelfth

10:12

step, you will more likely overcome the

10:14

disease. And the twelve step is to help another alcoholic,

10:16

Right, which service? Right? If I'm struggling

10:18

with how to find love, how to find a job, how to find

10:20

you know, happiness, the best way to do is to help

10:23

somebody I care about find love, find

10:25

a job, find happiness. For sure.

10:27

Being other oriented instead of self orienting.

10:29

It's a nice way to put it, And I think we'd probably be a better

10:31

world that we really like not

10:34

being needy energy. So the other side is like

10:36

One of my pet peeves is when somebody says, you

10:38

know what, I did that for them and they did nothing for

10:40

me and they didn't repay that. Like, people

10:43

get so upset if they do something kind for someone and

10:45

that person then doesn't return the favor and do

10:47

something kind with it for them, Like you do kindness

10:50

just as an end in itself. Right,

10:52

So there are people who go out

10:54

and maybe give people compliments, or they listen

10:57

to people, they try to help them, but they're trying to get something for

10:59

it. Yeah, yeah, sure they make that connection because

11:01

they want. So you really have to do it purely

11:03

with no neededness. I think the most biggest

11:05

turn off is when someone's just too

11:07

needy.

11:09

Do you still see yourself the same way as

11:11

you did when you wrote the game?

11:12

No, not at all, not like like barely.

11:15

I mean I really think that the bigger transformation I had

11:17

was like no surprise

11:20

was going to sex addiction reha, So

11:22

so that was that was really the bigger transformation. So

11:26

so so clearly there were things that led

11:28

me to the game that came not from

11:30

the game itself but came from like my upbringing. So

11:32

I think the bigger the game maybe

11:35

to me, the benefit what I learned in the game was like it showed

11:37

me that I can change that. And

11:39

then I think then it was questionable, what,

11:42

even if you recognize the game, was what drew me into the

11:44

game? What seduced me by that lifestyle?

11:46

Why did I become so obsessed

11:48

with it? What was wrong with me? You know, even

11:50

if the book, you know, even if the end I said, oh

11:53

this is bad. What what caught me up in that? And everything?

11:55

And so I remember I was having a dinner

11:57

with like two other writers

11:59

who wrote probably like the most famous books on seduction,

12:03

that kind of thing, and we were just talking fund

12:05

it we had the same kind of mother figure in our lives,

12:08

and I said, well, well that makes sense. It's a fear.

12:10

It's a fear of the feminine,

12:13

and trying to figure out the tactics

12:15

and the techniques is to make you safe

12:18

from something you feared because you grew up

12:20

with a toxic narcissist.

12:23

Okay, I can't leave this behind. What did you learn

12:25

that sex addiction counseling reform?

12:28

Yeah?

12:28

I mean, first of all, I like I learned like before

12:30

then I thought I was the

12:33

normal one who wrote about all the

12:35

eccentric, damaged people, the pickup

12:37

artists in the game, the rock stars, you

12:39

know, for Rolling Stone. And

12:42

then I realized, I remember

12:45

this a moment where you do your timeline? Did do you

12:47

have to do that? Your timeline? And so

12:49

I wrote down all my peak positive

12:51

memories and peak negative memories from zero

12:53

to seventeen. Sat there therapists

12:56

across from me, and she goes, well, you know why

12:58

you've never been in a healthy relation, Like

13:01

no, and she goes, cause your mom wants to be in

13:03

a relationship with you. And

13:05

that's when as surreal as weird as that sounds

13:08

like even at the time, and she's like, and there's a name for that. It's

13:10

called emotional incest. And I'm

13:12

like, what the well, my lodge Corn is going, what

13:14

the fuck? Well, my body like felt this truth of it. All of a sudden,

13:16

all my childhood stuff made sense, like again,

13:20

like just to go overshare, like

13:22

being grounded all the time, like massaging her

13:24

hand, like her coming in my room and complaining about

13:26

how my dad was in bed, not being

13:29

cut off when I wanted to want to live with a girl in college

13:31

or something. All of a sudden, everything just made

13:33

sense. My body felt the truth of that. And

13:35

I think it's true that in the culture,

13:38

we understand abandonment when a parent's not

13:40

there physically emotionally, but we don't

13:42

recognize meshment because it feels it's

13:44

like falsely elevating, Like abandonment

13:47

is you feel like nothing, But

13:49

when you're in a mess, you're like, oh, I'm mom

13:52

or Dad's special person. They

13:54

talk to me, they share this stuff with me, or I make them feel

13:56

better when they're sad. It's sort of I take care of the

13:58

family. It's sort of false empowering,

14:01

and so it's hard to see and recognize. And that I

14:03

recognized, and I realized that there

14:06

was a part of me that was like afraid to just

14:08

be vulnerable and surrender

14:11

because I was afraid of being swallowed up.

14:12

Again, thanks

14:15

for sharing that. Yeah, you're

14:17

very open. Did that come from

14:20

being around people who are struggling and

14:22

being forced to be open or have

14:25

you always been? There's a difference between open

14:27

with yourself, which is difficult, right, and then

14:29

being open out loud.

14:30

Yeah. I mean I think two reasons. One is I think maybe when

14:33

I was rinning for Rolling Stone, I would always encourage as

14:35

an interviewer. Being on the other side of it, I'd really try

14:37

to get people comfortable to be open

14:40

and then also honor that when I shared it, I wasn't would

14:42

never do a gotcha thing. So when I was

14:44

on the other side of the microphone, I did recognize

14:46

that I need to give what I

14:49

wanted. The other side of it is like,

14:52

my whole goal is just to be a health continue

14:54

working to be a healthier person. And

14:56

I think if you create a split between who you are and who you

14:58

present, that's super unhealthy.

15:01

I think that's most people, right, I mean some sort

15:03

of artifice is required, you know,

15:05

like when you meet people in professional

15:08

personal context, we all want to project

15:10

some sort of confidence. We can't project

15:13

defeatism. We never make friends, right,

15:15

I mean, there's always a bit of artifice, And I think this is where relationships,

15:18

you know, you become vulnerable, you start to break

15:20

down the artifice. But to your point, which is if we

15:22

never break down the artifice, then that's

15:24

unhealthy.

15:25

Yeah. I think there's lines of what's healthy and unhealthy.

15:27

So I think healthy is being vulnerable, and

15:29

then the other line is healthy

15:32

shame. Healthy shame is what we need to

15:34

have a little bit of shame because everyone's

15:36

in this world. I get rid of shame. Shame is bad. Every

15:38

emotion is good in the right degree.

15:41

Healthy shame as well. We're going to wear clothes

15:43

together, you know, we

15:45

are going to uh depending

15:48

on where we're getting together. I guess exactly,

15:50

like on the first date, within the clothes, how can

15:52

you I have no shame? Shame

15:56

is actually an.

15:57

Expression exactly exactly.

16:00

All our wounds, like, all our wounds

16:02

came from people who were shameless. My mom

16:04

was shameless with their boundaries around me, right,

16:07

people were shameless with let's say that again.

16:09

All of our wounds come from

16:11

others who were shameless. Yes, they

16:14

had no shame, which is they violated

16:16

boundaries, right, and that

16:19

lack of shame created wounded us. So draw

16:21

the line from me, because we are all the products of our

16:23

upbringing, right, warts and all.

16:25

Right, where's the line of accountability?

16:28

You know that we we say, look, I am like

16:30

this because you know I was enmeshed

16:32

with my mother.

16:33

I'll say for me, my accountability is one hundred percent

16:35

mine.

16:36

In other words, so regard it doesn't matter how

16:38

your mother treated you. I'm responsible. You're responsible

16:41

for your behavior.

16:41

I see myself because I want to speak

16:43

for other people. I see for myself, I'm responsible

16:46

for the stories I made up about that, and

16:48

so that allows me to

16:51

then change because if I'm

16:53

responsible, then I'm in control of the changing it. So

16:55

I see for me that those are variables

16:58

that occurred. These variables help

17:00

me understand myself, so there's no

17:02

blame involved. I mean, certainly there are cases

17:04

where people are straight up perpetrators.

17:08

There's a place for everything in the healing process. The healing process

17:10

can be is sort of a few steps you go through

17:12

at certain times, and just like you're

17:14

saying, the twelve step of AA is the service, I

17:16

think the end of the healing process

17:19

if you're trying to heal something as the forgiveness piece where

17:22

you actually and again most

17:24

people never get there and understand what's really challenging

17:27

for some people. But that piece of forgiveness that

17:29

you can forgive yourself and even let

17:31

go of any energy you hold around the other person,

17:33

and that's real freedom.

17:35

Will be right back.

17:44

There's two kinds of people. I want to get your thought

17:46

on this, because.

17:47

The people who believe there are two kinds of people and.

17:50

Everyone else there's just one

17:52

kind of person like that exactly. So

17:55

there's people who like try to bring

17:57

others down, right to get to like and

18:00

where there's people kind of like raise themselves up

18:02

to feel better about yourself.

18:03

You are many things you can do. You can lift others up, or you can

18:05

bring others down. I think that's true.

18:08

And I guess my question or something. I'm just seeing the culture

18:10

out there's so much criticism we're trying to bring others down.

18:12

Yes, I can't even see it, having been a journalist

18:14

for a long time, like something Mark Zuckerberg's

18:16

a sex and well now right or something. I don't

18:18

know. I see people are literally like, oh, he looks hot

18:21

with that gold chain or I don't know what is going on and

18:23

he wants his AI to be open source someone Mark

18:25

Zuckerberg, I see him going back up on the pensuluy

18:27

yah in this moment, in this exact moments

18:29

conversation. But the culture likes to take people

18:32

and kind of bring them down as soon as they get big, and

18:34

when they're little they want to kind of bring them back us.

18:36

And what do you think that is in the culture that we have to someone

18:39

gets too arrogant or too big. They have to

18:41

be sort of captain check catching check.

18:44

I think we've become a very

18:46

finite society where

18:49

the idea of vision and idealism

18:51

is almost lost. And

18:54

you know, leaders do not speak in idealized terms

18:56

anymore. They don't speak of imaginary

18:59

futures that will never I have a dream

19:01

all metacritic equal ask, not what your country

19:03

can do for you, like you know, shining sitting on a hill

19:05

like these are all idealized states of the

19:08

world that will never exist, but we'll try

19:10

and build them. When there's vision and

19:12

there's idealism, we all share in that vision,

19:14

or a lot of people will share in that vision, and

19:17

we feel community and we feel

19:19

supportive of the people in that community. Lack

19:21

of vision means it's every man for themselves. It's

19:23

every person for themselves, you know, and

19:25

we've doubled down on rugged individualism. And so

19:28

if I'm insecure, I cannot bear the thought

19:30

that you're you're happy when I'm not. And

19:32

it's easier for me to bring you down than lift me up, because

19:35

that's hard work. And don't I feel very alone?

19:38

I think everybody feels like they're

19:40

forced to be on this journey by themselves. I

19:42

think we've been on this road of feeling

19:44

lonely and feeling like we've hero wised

19:46

CEOs. It used to be the companied, now

19:48

it's the person, and

19:51

that that's the problem, which is we now live in a world

19:53

of I am the genius or I am not the

19:55

genius, I am the success

19:57

or I'm not the success and we've completely forgotten that we're

19:59

so animals and all of these things can

20:01

only happen with the love and help of others.

20:04

Yeah, I am not successful, and

20:06

I've said I'd even shared this with like

20:08

my friends. I say, I'm

20:11

the front man. So people give me all

20:13

of the love, but make no mistake

20:15

of it. Anything that I've accomplished in the

20:17

world, you are do some of the credit.

20:19

You were there for me when I couldn't. You were there

20:21

for me when I doubted myself. You believed in me

20:23

when I knew nobody else did. And there's

20:26

no way I can take all the credit.

20:27

But I guess the other question I think is just well, what is success?

20:30

Like everybody's in their own lane. If I

20:32

think I'm just thinking about what you said as

20:34

far as like make sure one gets a credit your team.

20:36

But then I also think that everybody

20:39

has a wheelhouse where they're great

20:41

and where they're trying to improve and trying to be better, and recognizing

20:43

them for that. Somebody

20:46

who makes that choice to just

20:49

just not work and raise

20:51

a family, not work and just travel the world with their

20:53

partner, or to sacrifice

20:55

family and travel and adventures to try

20:58

to create art or create

21:00

political change. Like everything

21:02

is equally valient. And it goes back to my I'm realizing

21:04

it's fun having this talk because I'm realizing how I think versus

21:07

you not asking me the standard sort of questions that

21:11

in the Book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible, the

21:13

advice is, and I'm not even a religious

21:16

person, but it's about grow

21:18

your own garden. Plant it, grow

21:21

this beautiful garden, and no, it doesn't really

21:23

make a difference, but just be happy doing it. And

21:25

I think if everyone's find

21:27

the thing that they like doing

21:29

enough and they're creating something more beautiful

21:32

or something that doesn't hurt others, I think there's

21:34

not much to it.

21:35

And I don't know if I agree with that.

21:37

Go ahead. I think that's selfish. You

21:39

know, we are individuals and members

21:41

of groups. We're social animals, but we're also

21:43

ourselves. And yes, you're you, but

21:46

you're also a father, a friend, a

21:48

member of a community, you know, a partner.

21:50

You know, like you have social responsibility

21:53

and you your behavior

21:55

does have real and significant impact in the lives

21:57

of others, as you've explained

22:00

about your own mother, right that significant

22:02

impact in your life. And so I

22:05

do believe that we have a

22:07

personal responsibility to plant our gardens is just

22:09

be satisfied. Yes, as an individual,

22:11

but as a member of a group, I think we do

22:14

have a responsibility to leave this world in better shape than

22:16

we found it. You know, if you work for a company, leave

22:18

the company in better shape than you found it, Leave this

22:20

country in better shape than you found it. Leave your family in better

22:22

shape than you found it.

22:23

Like I think, And how do you like that all

22:25

parable of the of the horse? That is that parable

22:27

of the horse?

22:27

Do you know that?

22:28

One?

22:28

Go on?

22:29

It's like, how do we know that we're really better?

22:31

Shait? It's the parable?

22:32

I mean, the parable is and just stop

22:34

me if you know it. But the farmer, this farmer going to

22:36

butcher it like everything, but the farmer you're going to butcher

22:39

the horse, which are the horse? Like everything has

22:41

so so there's a farmer

22:44

and his horse runs away and everyone's like, that's a

22:46

horrible thing. That sucks. You need them for your farm,

22:48

and goes. I don't know what's good or bad. We'll see. Horse

22:51

comes back. It brings a bunch of other horse and wild horses

22:53

back with them, and they're like, look at you. Now you have like five horses.

22:55

You're like the richest farmer in the whole territory. Look

22:58

at you. That's amazing. It's like, I

23:00

don't know if it's amazing or it's not amazing. We'll see.

23:02

Then the son's a riding a horse and the sun

23:05

falls off like breaks us, like really badly,

23:07

can't walk, may never walk the same again.

23:10

Like, oh man, that sucks. That happened to your horse. If only that horse

23:12

had brought all those other horses back. He's like, I don't know if it's good

23:14

or bad. We'll see. The next thing. There's a draft

23:17

and the sun isn't drafted because he broke

23:19

his leg and it saves his life. And the start goes

23:21

on and on and we could

23:24

you could go create the biggest best to fulfill

23:26

your exact mission, and maybe because

23:28

of that something else reacts against it and

23:30

creates a bunch of evil. But we

23:32

don't know the outcome of what we're doing in the

23:34

big, big picture. There's so much complicated

23:37

cause and effect that you may save someone's

23:39

life and they may go on to kill ten people, right,

23:42

like you know that that was the right thing to do, and

23:44

now ten people are dead because you know,

23:46

we don't know the I always having to say I have

23:48

the saying the outcome is not the outcome,

23:51

like that's just a finite

23:53

outcome, right. He goes back to everything we're saying about

23:55

the contracts and everything else. We don't but I'm saying

23:57

what I'm saying.

23:58

But here's what I'm saying is doesn't

24:00

mean to responsibility for contribution

24:02

just because it might not work out in the short term, because

24:04

then to your own story, which is, by the way,

24:06

the quintessential story for infinite mindedness, which

24:09

is yes, but then, but then,

24:11

but then, but then, like we don't know.

24:13

Okay, what I'm saying is be responsible for what

24:15

you're actually responsible for. Don't

24:17

assume that my goal Like

24:20

I think when we're saying there's no effect

24:22

you can control outside of yourself doing

24:25

the right thing. I think we're saying.

24:27

I think we're violent agreement here, which is control

24:30

the things you can control, be responsible for the things you're responsible

24:32

with, but do it with an eye of contribution.

24:35

Yeah, I mean, I think again, I

24:38

don't know. I don't want to tell people so

24:40

for some people, contributing may not be the right thing.

24:42

I think I am happy to tell people that contribution

24:44

is a thing.

24:45

There might be people who really just want to live this

24:47

life and be alone and not be bothered and

24:49

just like read books. I don't

24:52

know, it's okay. I want to say it's okay not to

24:54

contribute. It's

24:56

okay.

24:57

I need to think about that example. Yeah, because

24:59

that examp is except if you're Ted

25:01

Kaczynski, where you literally are

25:03

a person who's moved yourself from society.

25:07

Right and by the way, he couldn't fully do it,

25:09

he had to go threat in the world.

25:10

I am saying, be responsible for other people. Don't

25:12

do things that that you know that intentionally.

25:14

Called contribution is such a low bar,

25:17

okay, Right, Like ordering

25:19

a cup of coffee and saying please and thank.

25:21

You, Well, that's healthy

25:23

shame.

25:24

Right, Like contribution to

25:27

the world and make sure that you make someone's

25:30

life that you interacted with just slightly better.

25:33

Right, So, but here's here's

25:36

where such a low bar. But here's where we're differing.

25:38

Let's go here because there's a little hair to split, but let's split

25:41

it for fun, because he said, we're violently agreeing.

25:43

So my thought is, my thought.

25:44

Is next on this episode of splitting

25:46

hairs. By the way, splitting hairs is incredibly fun

25:49

for us, that's incredibly painful for people.

25:52

I don't care what I talked. I don't care about

25:55

sis and I have a conversation. You want to contribute,

25:57

so I want to have a good conversation with you. I

26:00

just had a conversation with you, selfish

26:03

bastard.

26:06

We'll be right back.

26:15

So and really like our whole thing on

26:17

this too is like, is this what

26:19

if I go out and I say please and thank

26:21

you when i'm more to my coffee. That's just the

26:24

right thing to do. But I don't have the I'll

26:26

just say extreme for fun. But the arrogance

26:28

of thinking this is making their life better because that guy walked

26:30

in and said please and thank you.

26:33

Maybe it goes back to your your

26:35

standard of intention. Now it goes back

26:37

to you don't know what's right for other people.

26:40

By the way, I know this, there's cultural differences,

26:42

right. So in the United States, you know, if I'm in a

26:44

restaurant, almost always I'll ask

26:46

the server what's your name. It's considered

26:49

polite in this country, and then I can say

26:51

thanks Stacy. You know, every time you know

26:53

something comes to the table, you know, and that's considered

26:55

a good thing. Not so in Norway.

26:59

I was a normal way and sat down and asked

27:01

the server her name, and she said why. I

27:04

was like, just so I be polite,

27:06

just try what

27:09

does it matter? I mean, you don't ask

27:11

the server of their name. It's considered incredibly

27:15

uncouth. And they're all introverts anyway,

27:18

and so like making closing those intimate

27:20

gaps freaks them all out. So you

27:22

know, so it is cultural. The differences

27:25

are sometimes cultural, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't

27:27

learn how to contribute consistent with whatever the norms

27:30

and values are of Norway.

27:31

So define contribute as you

27:33

see it.

27:34

Okay. We talked about accountability

27:36

and responsibility, so that I am accountable

27:38

and responsible for my actions and my words and

27:41

will attempt to go through

27:43

life in a way that

27:47

my actions and my words leave whatever

27:49

situation and the slightly better than when I than

27:51

when I showed up. And it's a very that's

27:53

a hard standard because you can't do it all the time, obviously,

27:56

But I think as an ambition, I

28:00

would like to know that my

28:02

friends have a better life because

28:04

I'm in their lives.

28:05

So can we do the right thing without

28:07

meaning to be responsible for the outcome?

28:10

Can we do the right Can we still have.

28:11

The motivation to do the right thing with others at all time

28:14

without taking on responsibility for the outcome?

28:20

It's a hard question, I think.

28:22

I think the answer is yes. Like

28:25

if if your intentions are good, I

28:28

think it's hard to fault you, you

28:30

know, and the

28:33

means matter more

28:35

than the ends.

28:36

So here's my thought here. I think I figured out the hair.

28:39

You guys can wake up now. I

28:41

forgot that this is it. You or

28:43

I say the same thing, but we're drawing the responsibility,

28:45

the boundary of responsibility at different places.

28:49

Same Okay, So my boundary

28:52

is right here.

28:54

For those who are not looking, Neil has

28:56

just made a line in the air.

28:59

Use are no longer friends after this secondary

29:02

is here? So what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this,

29:05

Yeah, all I can control are my

29:07

so in my in my.

29:09

Mind I can control is myself. All I controls myself in

29:11

line, Actually, I can't

29:13

control you or anything else.

29:14

I want to contribute. So let's say I want to contribute to

29:16

your life, and I say take that trip you always want to take. And

29:18

then but I'm not responsible when you take it or not or

29:20

no, I'm not responsible to plan. What I'm saying is

29:23

with yours things, I want to contribute. So you

29:25

have to If you want to contribute, then it means

29:27

you also have to take responsibility if your

29:29

effort to contribute ends in a disaster.

29:32

So I encourage you to take that trip you voye which

29:34

take your measure, and the plane crashes.

29:37

You're now responding if you're in the afterlife by your

29:39

version, God then gives you the scorecard and say here

29:41

are all the people you're interacted with. These people's

29:43

lives got better, these people's lives got worse. I

29:46

try to do the right thing, but unfortunately it's like seventy

29:49

four to twenty two. So I'm sending you to help.

29:53

My God. You're cynical.

29:54

I'm not cynical. But I'm saying it now, I'm not cynical,

29:57

and I'm not even going to say that I'm

30:00

uh healthier because

30:03

because because because

30:05

I'm really just saying like I uh. If

30:08

I'm saying I want to make sure I contribute to everything

30:10

around me I can have, it's different. My intention is to contribute

30:13

and contributing it. Then it's really exhausting because

30:15

some response for all the outcomes, all the outcomes, No,

30:17

you're.

30:17

Not responsible to the outcome, just like it's I mean, whether

30:20

we're right or wrong with this is good or bad, is

30:23

irrelevant. What I really like about this conversation

30:25

is it's anyone who's listening has forced to think about

30:27

this. Yeah, like we're forced to think about or they're

30:29

forced.

30:30

To just press like the two X but there

30:33

we're forced.

30:34

To just skip to another podcast by

30:38

supplements.

30:38

So okay, so let me just try to summarize

30:41

the points that move on, which is this, See if

30:43

this sounds right to you, Okay, we're

30:45

I think what we both share is where

30:48

you're trying to be kind and do the

30:50

right thing, yes, and be thoughtful about the way you're drafting

30:52

each other. My version is that's

30:54

enough in an end in itself, you're

30:57

adding the extra piece of the thought and

30:59

the goal of contribution.

31:00

Yes, okay, did

31:02

it? We should just do our own podcasts philosophical

31:07

hair splitting with Neil and soon.

31:08

Back to what I said, Like, I really, I really

31:10

listened closely, and I really want to understand. I don't want

31:12

to I mean, I both want to understand for myself. There's

31:14

something to learn or to like to

31:17

to think about that, but a really sense of theme and what you're saying,

31:19

which is like you really sort of.

31:23

Here's here's what somebody said to me once. Yeah, right,

31:27

I got this advice. This is literally how they delivered it. So

31:29

I got this advice once from someone. They said, Simon,

31:32

you live in the world,

31:36

right, Like you're not alone, Like you

31:38

live in a world. There are other people, there are interactions,

31:40

and like you can't be completely blind to that just because

31:42

you because then your own definition of kind,

31:45

your own definition of kind has to be

31:47

relative to the world you live in.

31:48

And what I would say is you live in your world, and

31:51

he lived in his world other than my.

31:53

World, and we also live in this world,

31:56

and your world interacts with my world. Whether you like

31:58

it or not.

31:59

And my story interacts with your story,

32:01

yes, and his story interacts with

32:03

our story, and we're all living out of these

32:05

very different stories. We have a contribution

32:08

story, I have a

32:11

uncertainty story, right, and

32:13

this is just two stories, two stories

32:15

meeting. So the point being is this, I

32:17

see the world in terms of story, in terms

32:19

of like, everybody's got a story. Wars

32:22

are fought over stories. We're being

32:24

surrounded by enemies. Everything story. Either

32:26

people have a story they tell themselves,

32:28

people have a story they sell to others. People

32:30

have these stories. So what I'm

32:33

playfully challenging is saying,

32:36

well, it's good that we buy our

32:38

own story and for our story adds something good

32:40

to the world. But maybe at the end of the day, recognizing

32:43

we're just trying to live a story

32:45

you believe in and believe it's the right thing, and

32:47

the end we really don't know. And

32:50

that's my positive note for this. But

32:52

I think accepting uncertainty is part of happiness.

32:55

We're completely in alignment by that. My talk

32:57

of contribution doesn't eliminate anything you say.

33:00

Yeah, And I think uncertainty is a large part

33:02

of it, which is why everything we're talking about

33:04

like the fact that we even have a conversation about this

33:07

and we really are splitting hair. We tell that

33:09

we are in the weeds, right. The

33:11

reason is for one reason and one reison

33:13

only, which is uncertainty. I don't

33:15

actually know, and neither do you. We have no idea,

33:17

and I find that magical

33:19

and empowering because uncertainty is

33:22

the place where things can happen.

33:23

Yeah, I mean, I think also if people accept it uncertainty,

33:25

we'd be living in a better, safer,

33:28

happier world. It's so hard for people to accept.

33:31

On that note, Neil, you

33:34

always get me thinking. Even though

33:36

this is the end of the conversation, this won't be the end

33:38

of me thinking about the questions you've raised.

33:41

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to

33:44

hear more, please subscribe wherever

33:46

you like to listen to podcasts, and

33:48

if you'd like even more optimism, check

33:50

out my website Simon Sinek dot

33:52

com for classes, videos

33:54

and more. Until then, take

33:57

care of yourself, take care of each other.

34:00

A Bit of Optimism is a production of

34:02

The Optimism Company. Its produced

34:04

and edited by David Jah and Greg Reiderchan

34:07

and Henrietta Conrad is our executive

34:09

producer,