0:00

Hello, cast of Kingslisteners. It's David Chen.

0:02

Hope you're all well, and thanks for joining us

0:04

for House of the Dragon this season. You may

0:06

or may not be aware that a cast Kings as part of

0:08

the decoding TV podcast network, which

0:10

also includes the decoding TV flagship podcast.

0:13

That podcast is covering other TV shows

0:15

that I think y'all might be interested in.

0:17

And I wanted to share with you an episode in which we

0:19

cover one of those TV shows. It's called

0:22

The White Lotus. We just kicked off our

0:24

coverage of the White Lotus this week on decoding

0:26

TV with a brand new cohost who you'll

0:28

hear from momentarily. But I wanted

0:30

to share our intro episode with you all. This

0:32

is us talking about season one of the White

0:34

Lotus getting excited for season two of the White

0:37

Lotus, which debuts this Sunday.

0:39

And if you wanna hear more conversations like this

0:41

one, please do give us a subscribe

0:43

at podcast dot decoding TV dot

0:45

com. One last thing. It is not my plan to drop

0:47

a bunch of podcast episodes on this feed

0:49

from other shows, But every once in a while,

0:52

if there's a show that think people on here will like,

0:54

I'll put a podcast episode in the feed.

0:56

There's gonna be at least one more in the next couple

0:58

weeks that I think you'll all enjoy. But otherwise,

1:00

feel free to ignore and look forward to

1:02

our bonus episode for a cast of Kings

1:04

coming next week. Thanks so much for listening. Here is

1:06

the decoding TV podcast episode spoiling

1:08

everything for season one of the White Lotus. and looking

1:10

forward to season two of the White Lotus. If you

1:12

wanna hear more, subscribe at podcast dot

1:15

decoding TV dot com. Enjoy.

1:19

The goal is to disappear behind

1:21

our masks as pleasant interchangeable

1:24

helpers It's tropical kabuki.

1:26

Hello, hon. A happy beer. We're on

1:28

our honeymoon. You're such. Valued

1:30

guests. Welcome to the white Lotus.

1:33

Are

1:36

they bigger? The cold are fucking huge.

1:39

I haven't seen him in the light up. It's

1:41

cancer.

1:44

Small balls. Say biopsy or balls

1:46

done? Not

1:48

yet. surprised.

1:53

Am I interrupting? I know it's only

1:55

your honeymoon. Oh

1:56

my god. Look at her face.

1:58

Rachel, you were such a beautiful

1:59

bright, but also very pale.

2:02

But now you have a little more

2:02

color and it looks great. Hello, everyone, and

2:05

welcome to decoding TV. A podcast

2:07

about television. I'm

2:08

David Chen, and today is very exciting.

2:11

We're launching our coverage of a brand

2:13

new television show. I'm pleased to announce

2:15

that decoding TV will be covering the white Lotus

2:18

season two. Now, I was really impressed

2:20

with the White Lotus when it first started airing

2:22

in July of twenty twenty one

2:24

on HBO. The title of the show refers

2:26

to a luxury resort that has locations

2:28

all around the world. And the show invited

2:31

us into the lives of characters that worked

2:33

for or were visiting the lotus. Some of

2:35

whom were delightfully quirky while others

2:37

had a darker side, but all of them were

2:39

tortured in one way or another. Beyond

2:41

just being a lot of fun to watch, the show also

2:43

featured some biting commentary about the hypocrisy

2:46

and obliviousness of wealthy people.

2:48

I wasn't the only one who loved the show. It was

2:50

massively buzzed about, critically acclaimed,

2:52

and it went on to be nominated for twenty

2:54

Emmy Awards. winning five

2:56

of them, including for directing

2:58

and outstanding writing. The show's first

3:00

season consisted of six episodes. Its

3:02

second season will debut on October thirtieth

3:05

on HBO and run for seven episodes,

3:07

we'll be recapping and reviewing every single

3:09

one of those seven episodes. Here

3:11

to join me. as

3:13

my cohost for those seven episodes. She

3:15

is a TV critic at vulture dot com.

3:18

And one of my favorite writers on the Internet

3:20

today, rock senna dotty, Welcome

3:23

to decoding TV. Thank

3:24

you so much. I'm so excited to talk about

3:26

this show with you.

3:27

I am excited as well.

3:31

I want to talk to you about

3:33

the White Lotus Season one. That's what

3:35

the purpose of this episode is gonna be. We're

3:37

gonna talk about the White Lotus Season

3:39

one than our thoughts specifically talk about

3:41

the finale and where we left off with that episode.

3:43

But before I get to that, I just wanna mention you can

3:45

find more episodes of this podcast at podcast

3:47

dot decoding TV dot com. Email

3:49

us at decoding TV at gmail dot com and

3:51

follow us on Tik Twitter, TikTok

3:53

and YouTube at

3:55

decoding TV. If you're interested

3:58

to support this podcast, you can also become a

4:00

paid member at d coding TV dot com, where you

4:02

can find ad free episodes as well as get

4:04

early access to episodes. Roxanne

4:06

Haddadi, you reviewed the White

4:08

Lotus Season one for roger ebert dot

4:10

com. And in your review, you wrote that

4:12

it was quote, alternately hilarious

4:15

and unsettling. The White Lotus

4:17

isn't a feel good watch, but it is a

4:19

must watch. End quote.

4:22

Roxana,

4:22

why was it a must watch for

4:24

you? I think

4:26

it was a must watch for me

4:28

because as you mentioned, It

4:30

was so biting. It

4:33

felt like it was really digging deep

4:35

into this idea of does

4:37

money make you happy? Does

4:39

it make life? easier? How do

4:41

those things sort of intersect? I

4:44

mean, I think the idea of

4:46

class consciousness and Hollywood

4:48

productions feels sort of inherently

4:50

hypocritical because these

4:53

shows are coming from people who are

4:55

wealthy and perhaps more well off

4:57

than us and have more access. But

4:59

I thought that the show actually had something to

5:02

say about how

5:04

all of that sort of changes who

5:06

you are and how access to it

5:08

changes who you are. So I really

5:10

liked all of that narrative content

5:12

in the sense that the show had

5:14

a distinct point of view. And

5:16

then it also benefited from having this amazing

5:18

ensemble. Right? I mean, Jennifer Coolidge

5:21

was amazing. Connie, Britain was

5:23

amazing. were very used to Jake

5:25

Lacey as sort of a romcom goofy

5:28

sort of figure

5:29

and he was very threatening and sort

5:31

of ominous in this So

5:33

I think also the cast really helped

5:35

and sort of make these stories come real.

5:39

And just on a very small note,

5:41

I really liked the the

5:43

terrible college students.

5:45

They were probably my favorite.

5:47

And I loved how often they wore

5:49

like rage against the machine

5:50

t shirts. just middle school

5:52

me was very pleased by that. Yeah.

5:54

Yeah. Some great points there.

5:56

I I agree with you when I was watching the show.

5:58

Part of me was wondering how

6:00

close are these actual people in real life

6:02

to the characters that they play? because here's the

6:04

thing. The the thing with being an actor

6:07

in Hollywood is it's

6:09

kind of weird because sometimes you

6:11

can make five thousand dollars in a year

6:13

or sometimes you can make five million dollars in

6:15

a year. And it's just like there's just such

6:17

a vast range. Mhmm. So

6:19

there is this kind of potentially

6:21

meta commentary of like, are these people

6:23

playing some version of themselves? And

6:26

I agree with you that there is some sort

6:28

of tension there where Mike

6:31

White is presumably a fairly

6:33

wealthy White Dude,

6:35

but he's making a show that is meant to

6:37

critique people of his class. And

6:39

-- Mhmm. -- how meaningful can that critique be if

6:41

it comes from someone of that class. Right?

6:44

Right. At the same time, I

6:47

do think it does a pretty good job of making

6:49

rich people look pretty terrible, you know. And

6:52

and and not only just making

6:54

them look bad generically, but, like,

6:56

the specific blind spots that

7:00

rich people or wealthy people or privilege

7:02

people can often have, I think it does a great

7:04

job of illuminating. And as you point out,

7:06

the the ensemble is amazing. And

7:09

it's just fun to watch like beautiful people

7:11

you know, be awkward around

7:13

each other and kind of have

7:15

like terrible painful conflict with each other. You

7:17

know, that's a fun, zesty enterprise.

7:20

So I really like the

7:22

the show in general as well and found it to be

7:24

like compelling must

7:27

watch TV. Also, loved

7:29

the soundtrack and score. I thought

7:31

those were all, like, really evocative

7:34

and kind of in its strictly

7:36

tied to the show. So

7:39

Very remarkable stuff. Yeah. Opening credits,

7:41

really good stuff. Yeah. The opening credits are amazing

7:43

that we're seeing

7:44

this initially sort

7:46

of welcoming tropical wallpaper

7:49

that then eventually transforms into

7:52

sort of a a location

7:55

of rot and corruption and

7:57

sort of things falling apart. I

7:59

really loved that. I also think that it sort

8:01

of hit us at a time

8:04

postparacyte. When people were more

8:06

interested in these kind of commentary

8:09

sort of projects, Blevo's

8:12

pre squid game. Right?

8:14

So I think that we were in

8:16

this time where people were sort

8:18

of willing to see what these stories

8:20

had offer. And this one was just

8:22

really well done in a

8:23

variety of different ways. Yeah. Totally.

8:27

So we both loved the white load of season one,

8:29

we will see if the white load of season

8:31

two can live up to the white load of

8:33

season one. Or if it's gonna be more maybe like a

8:35

true detective season two type situation. Big

8:37

Little Live season two. Big Little Live

8:39

situation. You know, there's many ways this could go

8:41

right and wrong, so that that journey

8:43

we will go on together on decoding

8:46

TV. And I'm really excited that Roxanna Haddati is

8:48

here for it. Now

8:50

before we get into season

8:52

two episode one, which will happen next week. And I I

8:54

do wanna just point out that in general,

8:56

you can expect episodes

8:59

to drop recapping

9:02

that week's episode of The White Lotus within

9:04

forty eight hours after the show Arizona

9:06

Television. if you

9:08

are a d coding TV dot com paid number, you might

9:10

get it a little bit earlier than that,

9:12

but that's kind of generally what you

9:14

can expect. but just wanted to

9:16

let you know what our scheduling will be. But

9:18

let's talk about where

9:20

we left off with

9:22

season one. Now, The White

9:24

Lotus

9:24

is an anthology series. So we

9:26

are unlikely to see any of these characters

9:28

except for one show up next season.

9:31

Jennifer Cool h who plays Tonya

9:35

McCoy McQuad. McQuad.

9:37

McQuad, she is

9:39

or has already been announced to be in season two.

9:41

So she's gonna be, like, our one line of continuity

9:44

between seasons one and two, but presumably

9:46

season two will be at a different resort of the

9:48

White Lotus. and it will have a whole new

9:50

cast characters. That said, I

9:52

just wanted to kind of refresh people's

9:54

memories about some of the stuff that happened in

9:56

season one. So let's

9:58

talk about some of the main plot lines in

9:59

season one. One of the biggest plot

10:02

lines in season one was around the

10:04

patents. Shane Patton played by Jake

10:06

Lacey, who is a real estate

10:08

agent, and

10:09

his wife, newly wed

10:12

wife, Rachel Patton played by

10:14

Alexander Didario. And

10:16

Shane Patton

10:18

is basically the customer from hell.

10:20

This this season. Right?

10:23

He is Yes. What what is a male version

10:25

of a Karen? You know, he's the person that's, like,

10:27

complaining to see literally complained to see

10:29

the manager virtually every episode of

10:31

everything. You know, things aren't perfect for

10:33

his honeymoon, so he's really, really

10:35

upset about it. So

10:38

that is Shane's storyline,

10:40

and Rachel's storyline is one

10:42

of realizing, you know, right when right

10:44

around the time when Shane invites his mom played

10:46

by Molly Shannon to the honeymoon that

10:49

perhaps Rachel has made a

10:51

terrible mistake in wedding this person who is

10:53

basically a man child. I

10:55

thought this is a great

10:57

plotline I mean, the the thing about

11:00

Shane Patton, in my opinion, is

11:02

he is clearly,

11:04

like, very a

11:07

distasteful person. Like, but I

11:09

don't know if I would quite describe him as

11:11

morally reprehensible just

11:13

because His

11:16

actions, I think many

11:18

of us have at some point had some

11:21

not not I'm not saying I'm not accusing

11:23

us of being like Shane Patterson. But I'm

11:25

saying, at one point in our lives,

11:27

we have probably had a

11:29

feeling that

11:29

is similar to something that Shane Patton expresses

11:32

in season one of the show. Would you say that

11:34

is reasonable, Roxanna? And what did you think of the

11:36

Shane and Rachel storyline overall?

11:38

I

11:38

I feel like I'm making so many faces

11:41

because I think that he was

11:42

the most morally reprehensible. Oh,

11:44

he's certainly the most. He's certainly the most.

11:47

Yeah. I think that what

11:49

was really well done about this storyline

11:51

is it is so clear

11:53

from the very beginning that

11:55

Shane thinks he's someone

11:57

that is guaranteed

11:59

different treatment because of

12:02

the money that he has. Right? But

12:05

He also isn't someone who is

12:08

classy. That maybe that's

12:10

mean. But I think he's someone who

12:12

has a lot of money and who sort of

12:14

thinks that he's owed

12:16

certain things because he has a lot of

12:18

money. But I don't think that

12:20

he has actual preferences.

12:22

I think he just sees the most

12:24

expensive thing. and thinks that's the

12:26

best and thinks that he deserves

12:28

it. So I think there's a lot of

12:30

layers of how privileged

12:32

he is And then it's wonderful when

12:34

Molly Shannon enters and plays his mom

12:36

because you realize, oh, he

12:38

became that way because she is one hundred

12:40

percent that way. So I think it was a good

12:42

way to show us how these

12:44

sort of toxic characteristics

12:47

are generational. And then I

12:49

was really impressed with Didario in this. I

12:51

mean, we talked we mentioned True Detective.

12:53

I think one of her probably

12:55

breakout things was she was on season one

12:57

of True effective and she was a very good and a

12:59

supporting role. But I think she does

13:01

really exceptional work here,

13:03

communicating a woman who is trapped,

13:05

and trapped by her own choices. Right?

13:08

I mean, she sort of got swept

13:10

off her feet by this man. She

13:12

knew she wasn't really cutting

13:14

it as a writer or a journalist

13:16

and he sort of offered her

13:18

a way out and now she's

13:20

realizing maybe it would have

13:22

been better if I didn't

13:24

do this. So I think she's the most

13:26

tragic, sort of,

13:28

empathetic character in this whole

13:30

thing. And I really liked their dynamic.

13:32

I mean, a lot of their scenes

13:34

are in the resort

13:35

sort of eating together

13:37

and just being very

13:39

tense and it never feels like honeymoon.

13:42

like, the vibe is off, the

13:44

entire time. And I think

13:46

that really helped us

13:49

know from the beginning Okay.

13:51

This is who these people are gonna be.

13:54

This is what their energy is. And

13:56

it's all bad. And we're just

13:58

gonna go on this journey with them. Really

13:59

great points. I

14:02

guess, let me try to revise what I was saying about Shane,

14:04

you know. I think Yeah. Because I was like, you're

14:06

wrong. No. No. No. I mean, he's clearly

14:08

awful. he's clearly horrible, but I I think

14:10

I think I would the point I was

14:12

trying to make was, I don't think he was, like, cartoniously evil.

14:14

It's kind of what I was trying to say. You

14:16

know? Mhmm. and that I

14:18

think the the

14:21

show creator Mike White, like made him

14:23

just relatable enough Yeah.

14:25

That you could kind of see from his perspective. But

14:27

I agree. He's, you know, he

14:29

I I started by saying he's a nightmare

14:31

customer totally

14:33

awful. Like, your when he's

14:35

interacting with hotel staff, your sympathy is always

14:37

with hotel staff. Yeah.

14:39

And so but at the same time, you

14:41

can kinda see, like, if you, like,

14:44

squint and look a scan set, what he's

14:46

doing that, like, oh, on some level, he

14:48

just he just wants what he feels he's

14:50

owed and And and and even

14:52

though it's really

14:53

eighty five to ninety five percent for

14:55

him, there is a part of it that is also

14:57

for his his wife. Right?

14:59

Even though he doesn't see even though he doesn't

15:01

recognize her full personhood, there

15:04

is still at least he has told himself

15:06

that, like, his actions are are for his

15:08

wife to some degree. So I'm not saying he's a good

15:10

person. I'm not saying he is sympathetic,

15:12

but I think that the

15:15

show did give him

15:17

enough outs to make it seem like he

15:19

is on some

15:21

levels doing things for the right

15:23

reason. But

15:24

And I think you're completely right that

15:26

the show very smartly begins

15:29

his character arc with a

15:31

mistake

15:31

that someone else made. Right? Like --

15:34

Mhmm. -- all of his reactions are over the

15:36

top. One they arrive at the resort,

15:38

he is correct that he

15:40

booked a different

15:41

more expensive, better

15:44

suite. and the resort tries

15:46

to trick to him, trick him and

15:48

lie to him and tell him that he didn't do

15:50

that. So I think from

15:52

a black and white who was

15:54

right, who was wrong situation.

15:58

Shane was right. But then

16:00

every way that he react to

16:02

that mistake is what just digs

16:04

him

16:04

into more and more of a sort

16:07

of ethically awful

16:09

trench. Right. And I think you made a

16:11

great point about this idea of him

16:13

being kind of Nuvo Reach. Like, it's not

16:15

even like he really wants the

16:18

acouture maw of the pineapple sweet or anything like that. Like, it's

16:20

not like he is like, oh, I just loved it

16:22

last time I was here. Like, he just loves the

16:24

idea of it. Yes. But

16:26

you know, ultimately the big

16:28

thing that happens with Rachel is she ends up

16:30

going back to Shane at the end. I don't know if you saw that

16:32

coming. I thought it

16:34

could have gone either way And

16:36

you're obviously rooting for her to break away from this,

16:38

but at the end of the day, she

16:40

chooses class and

16:42

safety over

16:43

her own autonomy and self

16:45

determination And as you said, it's quite tragic.

16:47

Any thoughts on Rachel's ending

16:49

in this season? I

16:50

mean, I

16:52

think Rachel's ending is very

16:54

haunting I think another ending that

16:56

we'll get to that's very haunting. And

16:58

I think they sort of exist

17:01

in opposition to each other.

17:03

I mean, the issue with this is that

17:06

Rachel realizes that she is

17:08

capable of a different

17:10

life. Right? I mean, she doesn't need to be married

17:12

to him. She doesn't need to deal

17:14

with this. No one is

17:16

forcing her hand. But the decision yeah.

17:19

The decision to go back to him is sort of

17:21

giving up on yourself. Right?

17:23

I mean, she sort of sees

17:25

what the possibilities are?

17:26

She would have to work. I

17:28

mean, God, who wants to work? She would have

17:30

to work. Who wants to who wants to

17:32

work for like a pop culture website

17:34

I mean, comparable. Yeah. Absolutely not.

17:37

I can't I can't. I can't. Yes. Of course.

17:39

Of course. I love Roxanna's work

17:41

at Vulture. Okay. Well, thank you. Very

17:44

kind. But,

17:44

yeah, I mean, like, all these things, like, as terrible as he

17:46

is. She's still at this beautiful resort

17:49

and as terrible as his mother

17:51

is. she would still have a very

17:54

easy sort of life.

17:56

So I think that

17:58

decision I

17:59

don't wanna say a

17:59

lot of us would make, but some of us

18:02

would make certainly a lot of people have

18:04

made. But I just think

18:06

that Didario gives that

18:08

character, enough sort

18:10

of vulnerability, and enough

18:14

surrender that I can't judge her

18:16

for that. It's just like,

18:18

well, I mean, I feel sorry

18:19

for you, but I guess that's a choice you made

18:22

yourself. So yeah, just

18:24

very haunting. Yeah. When they embrace at the

18:26

end, it's a very sad,

18:29

tragic fate for that character. Yeah. You

18:31

know? Yeah. I mean, I definitely still

18:33

would, like, read her name in the news

18:35

and be like, oh, this woman.

18:37

But at this moment in time, I feel

18:39

sorry for what she's decided to do.

18:41

You're you're saying when she becomes kind

18:44

of a sort of a

18:45

of rich housewife of your

18:47

trophy wife, like, you would see

18:49

her being photographed you know,

18:51

coming out of most expensive restaurant in town and you

18:54

would roll your eyes. Yeah.

18:56

But at this moment in the show that

18:58

you're intersecting with her, you feel

19:00

sympathy. Yeah. In this liminal

19:02

space, I'm like, I feel very sorry

19:04

for what you're going through. Wow. But I

19:06

like that you made a whole life for her.

19:08

you made a whole life for her, like, beyond the --

19:11

Yeah. -- confines of the show. Alright.

19:13

So that is the patents

19:15

really well done storyline. And and this

19:17

is a thing, like, Virtually

19:19

every character in the show has some

19:21

kind of arc. Yes. And

19:23

that's really hard to do, but I think the show did

19:25

a great job of of giving each character some kind

19:27

of arc. You know, some of them are mini arc,

19:29

some of them are some of them are barely

19:31

in arc, but but all the characters get some

19:33

kind of arc. Unless there are

19:37

people of color. In which case, you see them for, like, a

19:39

few episodes of Inu never see

19:41

them again. Well, unless they're Hawaiian natives and

19:43

then just like, oh, we can't we

19:45

can't take the time. Not enough time in the

19:47

show for for those Sorry. It

19:49

is true that I do think that is a

19:51

huge weak spot of the show. Yeah.

19:53

Characters like Lanie from the first episode,

19:56

Kai, like, once

19:58

they do their thing and make their

20:00

impression, like, they perform

20:03

their plot function. They're basically never heard

20:05

from again. which is

20:07

kind of a bummer for a show that one would

20:09

think is interrogating the idea of privilege.

20:11

But anyway I think

20:13

well, we can briefly speak to this.

20:15

I mean,

20:15

it's hard because I think the

20:18

show and Mike White would say, I think he

20:20

did say in interviews. that we are seeing the

20:22

perspective of the guests. Right?

20:24

So why would you sort of follow

20:26

Lonnie in the rest of her life? And why

20:28

would you know what happens to

20:30

the employee that Paula sort of has

20:32

this affairplanned heist

20:34

with. And on the one hand, I

20:36

get that. On

20:37

the other hand, I do

20:40

feel like it sort of feels like a little bit of a

20:42

justification for not writing these

20:44

stories to be like, oh,

20:46

well, I mean, the point is that they get

20:48

to leave. It's like, right, I

20:50

get that. But there could have been a little bit more

20:52

for these characters to sort of

20:55

elucidate further

20:57

What is tourism? Right?

21:00

I mean, like, what are these places

21:02

forced into? And how do

21:04

you have to become a

21:07

product? to survive in a classist system.

21:09

And I think the show could have gone further

21:11

on that. Yeah. It

21:13

was interesting to

21:16

read and hear about

21:18

Mike the the criticism to the

21:20

show on those regards.

21:22

Right. And also, like, read

21:24

Mike White's responsibility. And, you

21:26

know, the show does kind of directly address it.

21:28

But, like, what is the place

21:30

of the white male in modern

21:32

society. And and I think there is

21:34

this sense from people like

21:36

Mike Mike White Mike White that it's like, I don't

21:38

know if there is a place, you know.

21:41

And I think

21:44

he is understanding of the

21:46

criticism and, like, and, like, is

21:48

accepting of it. do think that

21:50

there is this kind of

21:52

III did

21:55

find there to be kind of the

21:57

lack of acknowledgment of the

21:59

potential idea that someone like Mike White

22:01

could use his position and

22:04

considerable resources in cloud to, like, elevate

22:07

people who might be more underrepresented in

22:09

in Hollywood. Right? I

22:12

think he wrote and directed all the episodes.

22:14

Right? It's it's like, you know, there's probably

22:16

opportunities to, like, give

22:19

other people you know, the directing job that for

22:21

the show that he's show running. So anyway, it

22:23

it did feel there's a few things

22:25

about season one that rubbed me the wrong way, but

22:28

it's like hey, I still like the show. I'm

22:30

still into the show, you know. But we've

22:32

we've touched upon a few of those

22:34

things. The mossbockers, Nicole

22:37

Mossbocker is played by Connie Britton,

22:39

who is the CFO of a search engine

22:41

company, kind of a Sheryl Sandberg

22:43

type. Yeah. It's a very lean in

22:45

sort of tech wife type. Yes.

22:47

Yes. The Laura Durn of

22:50

Big Little Lice. Gotcha.

22:52

Yes.

22:52

That's right. Yeah. And her

22:54

husband is Mark Mossbocker, played by Steve

22:56

Zahn. Her daughter is Olivia.

22:58

Olivia's friend is Paula

23:01

played by Britney O'Grady, and they

23:03

also have a son named Quinn Mossbocker played

23:05

by Fred Hedgesinger. So Yeah. And Olivia

23:07

is Sydney Sweeney. I don't know if we mentioned it.

23:09

Yes. Yes. Yes. So this

23:12

was a kind of interesting storyline. Like,

23:14

you know, all the storylines were were were

23:16

pretty good. I

23:19

think the character that

23:21

probably goes on the biggest the

23:23

characters that go on the biggest journeys

23:26

are Quinn and,

23:28

like, Paula and

23:29

Olivia, I think. Right? I

23:32

think less Olivia, more

23:34

so Quinn. Yeah.

23:36

And

23:36

Paula. Yeah.

23:37

Quinn really was kind of a tragic

23:39

figure in some ways as well because

23:44

he is also suffering

23:46

in a rich family -- Mhmm.

23:48

-- because people literally

23:50

don't listen to anything, he says, or

23:52

any of his opinions or or what he wants. Right? Not

23:56

at all. He basically

23:58

doesn't have personhood. in his family. And --

24:00

No. -- like, you see it. Like, in every single scene, he will

24:02

say, like, I wanna do this and, like, no one listens

24:05

to him or cares what he has to say.

24:07

And it's very, very sad. I mean, what did you think of the Quinn

24:10

storyline? Well, I think the

24:11

Quinn storyline I mean,

24:13

you were just mentioning sort of the Mike

24:15

White idea of what is the place

24:17

of the white man. And I think this

24:20

storyline explicitly sort of grapples with

24:22

that. Right? I mean, Steve

24:24

Son's character is very aimless. He

24:26

feels overshadowed by his wife. And

24:28

then you have Quinn who

24:30

is sort of doing his best

24:32

to be like we're

24:35

in

24:35

Hawaii, shouldn't we do some stuff, that

24:37

is, oh, Iain, like, shouldn't we be

24:39

vaguely interested in where we are?

24:42

And his mother continues

24:44

being like, oh,

24:45

well, a white man have a really hard

24:47

time right now and you should listen to, you know,

24:50

listen to him,

24:50

but she never does. So

24:52

I think the storyline is really an analysis

24:54

of, like, liberal politics and

24:57

sort of the sense of

24:59

what is the infighting within

25:02

people who say that they're liberal or people

25:04

who say that they're progressive or

25:06

say that they have sort of forward

25:08

thinking

25:08

ideas and ideals. How

25:10

do you actually live that? Especially

25:13

if you are this level of wealthy

25:15

and sort of this level of detached

25:17

how do you actually put

25:19

forth these things that you say that you

25:22

value? And it's interesting to me that

25:24

you said you thought Quinn was

25:26

tragic, because I actually think he's the happiest ending.

25:29

Yeah. In

25:31

some ways, yeah, but, like,

25:35

First of all, we

25:35

don't know what happens, but, like, you know, like, we don't

25:38

see the aftermath. Like, basically, what happens

25:40

at the end obviously is he escapes his

25:42

family. He's a minor. He's sixteen

25:44

years old. So his family's

25:46

gonna pursue him and figure out

25:48

where he is, you know. Maybe.

25:50

They have considerable resources, roxadena,

25:53

you know. But

25:55

yes, he he is the one that becomes, like,

25:57

fully self actualized and does what he wants

25:59

at the end, like, on his own terms.

26:01

And so that is that is good. But it's but

26:03

it's only because he's been

26:06

kind of living this similar

26:08

acrum of life prior to that. You

26:10

know, like, It's only because he's he doesn't feel at all

26:12

fulfilled anything that he's been doing before. And

26:14

if he did, he wouldn't feel like he needs to

26:16

take such drastic action. Now maybe it's a good

26:18

thing that he takes drastic action, you

26:20

know? But to me, it just feels like

26:22

he's in a very unloving family.

26:24

And that's that's really sad, you know.

26:26

Or or that doesn't

26:29

recognize him for who he is, which is at his own form of

26:31

unloving. You know? I think all

26:32

of that is true. But I

26:35

think that this show

26:37

is sort of making I think it's sort

26:39

of making a case for what kind

26:41

of drastic action actually

26:44

gets results. And there's something

26:46

sort of bleak about how much

26:49

the other drastic

26:51

actions fail. I mean, Paula's

26:53

scheme fails. We'll get to Armand,

26:55

his scheme fails.

26:57

And I think the show is

26:59

sort of doing an implicit

27:01

If you try to harm the

27:04

system, it's

27:04

not gonna work. Wealth is

27:06

too entrenched, classes too

27:09

entrenched, power is too entrenched, and

27:11

you can't as an individual alter

27:13

that. The only thing you can do is

27:15

leave. Right? And that's what

27:17

that's what Quinn

27:17

does. He just leaves.

27:21

and I do respect

27:22

that. You know, I think you probably

27:24

if we're saying that

27:25

Shane was the most morally

27:28

reprehensible, I do think that Quinn might be the one

27:30

who's sort

27:31

of baby politics I

27:33

agree with the most. Mhmm. I do think

27:35

you bring up great points about the

27:38

tension between trying

27:42

to live out leftist politics

27:44

or be a liberal, and being incredibly rich. Yeah.

27:46

And we see that play out, you know, in

27:48

the conflict between Nicole's

27:51

the clip character of Nicole and her daughter

27:53

who's kind of classic Gen Z. But

27:55

what I really like about that

27:57

relationship is the

27:59

very final scenes work Olivia kind

28:01

of reintegrates back into her

28:03

family. and it's it's kind of a mirror

28:05

of what happens with Rachel where she's like, oh,

28:07

like at the end of the day, we're all gonna

28:09

go back to the rich people who are were

28:12

Right? Like -- Mhmm. -- no matter

28:14

how many challenges we've gone through,

28:16

no matter what you know, at the end of the day, we're

28:18

gonna go back to the rich people we're

28:20

related to. and

28:22

there is this kind of inevitability. And I guess

28:24

you're right that Quinn does break free of that. So Howard

28:26

Bauchner: And Olivia does something, I think,

28:28

that Shane does, like Olivia does to Paula,

28:30

what Shane does to Rachel,

28:32

which is, why don't you

28:34

appreciate what I'm doing for you?

28:36

Like, I think when Olivia finds out

28:39

about Paula sort of

28:41

scheme to steal his steal

28:43

Olivia's mom's jewelry and

28:45

sort of

28:45

sell it, I think there is that

28:48

conflict of I brought you on this

28:50

vacation and I'm doing something nice for

28:52

you. Why would you sort of stab my family in

28:54

the which is exactly what Shane

28:56

does with Rachel. Right? I mean, there's this sort of

28:58

incredulousness as to

29:00

why would you betray me?

29:02

And it's not looking past

29:04

the individual,

29:05

it's not

29:06

acknowledging that, well, the whole system is

29:09

sort of wrong, and I'm trying to do something to write

29:11

the system. Yeah. So I

29:13

think there's that part of it. I also think

29:15

there was this obliviousness to the system.

29:17

Right? Like, the justness -- Yeah. -- the violence

29:19

inherent to the system basically is kind of --

29:21

Yeah. the things that don't even recognize. And

29:23

and, yeah, great point. Anyway, sorry,

29:25

I didn't meet their Trump. Go ahead. No. No. Well,

29:27

all I was gonna

29:28

say is I remember at the time that

29:30

people were sort of thinking,

29:33

Paula, did you really think you would get away

29:35

with this? So I do think that is

29:37

something sort of interesting to

29:39

consider too. Polar scheme

29:41

is sort of childish. Right? It is sort of immature.

29:43

I mean, I don't think she has

29:45

the tools to figure out

29:47

how to actually

29:49

work within this sort

29:52

of infrastructure, sort of like you

29:54

said. I mean, she's not someone

29:56

like,

29:56

Rachel who has, like, spent more

29:59

time in these higher

29:59

classes and who has sort of figured out how

30:02

to navigate it. Paula

30:04

seems like on this

30:06

vacation, decides to do something impetuous,

30:08

and her ending is very sad. I

30:10

mean, again, she acquiesces. Right? She

30:12

surrenders to the system. she

30:14

can't do anything against it? Howard Bauchner:

30:17

Yeah, I

30:20

completely agree. I

30:22

mean, The thing is as

30:24

was pointed out in the actual show itself,

30:26

the plan was a little bit too stupid, I

30:28

think. Like -- Yeah. -- it is too

30:30

dumb. Olivia says, like, hey, you

30:32

wanted me to put this necklace in the thing. And

30:34

then all of a sudden, the next day gets broken into

30:36

and they know the code, like, it makes no sense, you

30:39

know. No. did

30:41

almost feel like more of a high school plot

30:43

than a college, a college

30:45

age person's plot. But

30:48

anyway, I like also, before we

30:50

move on from the moss backers, I did like the

30:52

kind of tension between

30:54

Olivia and Paula. Right? There's

30:56

this kind of that that

30:59

Olivia, the Sydney Sweeney character, feels

31:01

almost some kind of ownership over

31:03

Paula, right, in a weird way throughout

31:05

the season. that kind of comes out in these weird spooky

31:07

ways. So I like it. They didn't, like, say

31:09

that much about it, but you could kind of feel it between the

31:11

two of them, and it is in the performance. So just

31:14

wanted to give that a shout out as well. I

31:15

also think it's worth saying that Steve's on is

31:18

very funny. Mhmm.

31:19

I mean, the the Nicole

31:22

and Mark storyline

31:24

might have been

31:25

a little bit on the weaker end just

31:27

because I think that this

31:30

sort of our relationship

31:32

is imbalanced because of

31:34

male and female gender roles. was

31:36

a little bit more basic

31:38

than I wanted from the show,

31:40

but I think giving Connie Britain an opportunity

31:42

to go against type,

31:44

and giving Steve's on some of

31:47

the zaniar more

31:49

deranged line deliveries

31:51

as he's like reaching his of

31:53

how much he'll take from his wife and from his

31:55

daughter and from the stranger that's on

31:57

the trip with them. I do think

31:59

that he put

32:01

forth a lot of the humor of the show

32:03

in a very welcome way. Hey, Roxanna.

32:05

Let me try and take you down a mini

32:07

rabbit hole here. Okay? Because I'm trying to

32:09

figure out like what the

32:12

the plot line with Mark and

32:15

Nicole was trying to say. Mark

32:17

spends most of the first season. I agree Steve's unsolareus,

32:19

but Mark Smith. Most of the first season is kind

32:21

of an ineffectual beta male,

32:24

complaining about his station in life. And

32:26

then he has reinvigorated when

32:28

Kai thees from their

32:31

suite and and

32:33

then he, like, attacks him and then, like, that makes

32:35

him feel like a man again. Right? Right. And

32:37

I my interpretation

32:38

of it is

32:42

I, you know, I don't think this is,

32:44

like, one

32:44

of the messages of Fight Club

32:47

in in my opinion is that,

32:49

like, this idea that,

32:51

like, by if you're you

32:53

know, that by getting in touch with your more

32:55

primal aspects, like, you can feel more

32:57

fully actualized. And I don't think this

32:59

this show is trying to say anything

33:02

like that. Because I

33:04

don't

33:05

think that, you

33:07

know,

33:07

he was in particularly very much

33:10

danger. Right? I think

33:12

what the show is trying to say is that

33:14

like, for somebody of

33:16

this cast level, even

33:19

a minor expression of

33:21

masculinity is sufficient to

33:23

kind of Yeah.

33:25

So that's kind of my inter like, it wasn't like

33:27

what he did was particularly heroic, but it

33:29

was like, even just like a little bit

33:31

of it is enough to kind of grease the wheels

33:33

of his marriage as it were. What what do you

33:35

think about? I

33:36

think yes. I mean, I agree. I think we

33:38

see that exact same thing happen with

33:40

Shane and Rachel. Right?

33:42

because I think what happens to

33:44

Arman to sort of predicated on

33:47

shame thinking. I need to

33:49

protect my wife. I need to protect

33:51

myself. I mean, protect yourself from a resort

33:53

employee. You know what I mean? But I

33:55

think that the whole element of

33:58

crime in this series

33:59

is a commentary on

34:02

just how detached

34:04

and verified. These people have become

34:06

I mean, they're not used to minor

34:09

inconvenience they're not used to,

34:12

which is really just a petty

34:14

crime. I mean, they're not used to any

34:16

of that. So I think

34:18

the opportunity to sort of be threatened again

34:20

just becomes a way to

34:24

reaffirm

34:24

how special they are. I mean, Mark

34:26

uses it

34:27

as a way to prove his

34:29

worth to his wife. that

34:31

he doesn't feel worthy of

34:34

in any other way. Yeah. So, yeah, I

34:35

don't think he's

34:38

actually saying this is

34:39

an important thing that men need. Right. I think

34:41

it's saying this is something that

34:43

again just becomes

34:46

commodified and sort of filtered

34:48

through these class

34:49

dynamics. Or you need the the

34:51

taste of it. you

34:53

know. Yeah. But don't need the actual thing. Whatever that

34:56

actual thing might be. Press

34:58

anyway. Right. Right. Okay. Well,

35:00

let's talk about Tanya. I played by

35:02

Jennifer Coolidge. favorite favorite

35:04

Tanya. Obviously, the light, very funny,

35:06

you know, very goofy, very wacky. Love

35:09

the random lines. She

35:11

gets together with Greg played by John

35:14

Grease. And I really like this

35:16

character in this plot line because it

35:18

really shows

35:20

A,

35:21

how much power people can wield

35:22

over lesser people

35:25

of lesser wealth not

35:28

only over their time, but also their attention and emotional

35:30

resources. And also, like, how

35:32

how thoughtless they can be. Right?

35:34

Like, because it's not important for

35:37

them, it's, like, They don't understand what it's like for

35:39

someone in Belinda's position who's played by

35:42

Natasha Rothwell.

35:44

So, yeah, that that was

35:47

primary function of that storyline for me. What what

35:49

did you think of the Jennifer Coolidge

35:51

Tanya storyline? Tanya

35:52

was very complicated for me

35:54

because she is sort of playing a

35:56

little bit of a clown. Right? I mean, everyone

35:58

else at the

35:59

resort sort of avoids

36:02

her. They've

36:03

seen the choose going through something and

36:05

they don't wanna deal with it. I she sort of has become

36:08

almost like this mishapisham

36:10

figure, like haunting the resort.

36:13

and repelling other people.

36:14

So I think the show sort

36:17

of plays that

36:18

for laughs a little bit

36:20

because Coolidge is sort of so good

36:23

at

36:23

those very simultaneously,

36:27

clueless and pointed

36:29

sort of scenes. But again, yeah, I mean,

36:31

I think what this

36:34

storyline probably did

36:36

the most It

36:38

showed the

36:39

thoughtlessness of her and how she

36:42

could move through the

36:44

world. But

36:45

I also think that it

36:47

did provide a focus on the flip side of that.

36:49

Right? I mean, somebody

36:52

like Belinda who

36:54

has dreams but knows that her dreams need access

36:57

to capital. And

36:59

she needs to temper

37:02

herself around

37:02

this woman. She needs to befriend

37:04

her. She needs to be available.

37:06

I mean, she needs to basically rearrange

37:09

her whole life. to fit

37:12

into what this woman needs, so maybe

37:14

she could have a shot at starting her

37:16

own business. I thought what was really interesting

37:18

about this. because

37:19

I think it's sort of a commentary

37:21

on philanthropy in general and

37:24

especially

37:24

like millionaire philanthropy

37:26

and the sense that you

37:30

know, if

37:30

our economic system was better,

37:32

you probably could get the

37:34

funding to run your own business. and

37:37

you wouldn't have to sort of run through, you

37:39

know,

37:39

this obstacle course of those The whims of

37:41

rich people. Like, it wouldn't be based off the

37:43

the whims of

37:46

rich people who just may or may

37:48

not happen to feel like giving you money at that time. Right? Yeah. I mean, Tanya flip

37:50

flops. Right? The entire season

37:52

is her saying

37:54

this is a great idea. Somebody should do it. I don't know

37:56

if it should be me, but somebody should

37:58

do it. So I think this

37:59

was probably

38:02

I think the most pointed

38:05

subplot about like

38:07

a microcosm of something

38:10

that's larger. And again, like, Natasha

38:12

Rothwell is wonderfulness. Like, if people

38:14

only knew her from insecure,

38:16

I think she does a really

38:20

impactful job. And I think

38:21

when I mentioned earlier that

38:24

Didario's end is

38:25

sort of just heartbreaking.

38:28

Roththals is too. I mean,

38:30

arguably more because, I mean,

38:32

Didario, Rachel, gets to sort

38:35

of go be wealthy. I mean, like, oh, it's

38:37

so tragic, but like Natasha

38:39

is left running this

38:41

resort that she

38:44

clearly hates. There

38:44

is this kind of Shakespearean tragedy element to

38:48

Natasha getting shafted

38:50

from Tanya I like that Tanya

38:52

gave her some money, so it wasn't like --

38:54

Sure. -- it didn't make Tanya out to be like a

38:56

complete monster. You know? Like, she

38:58

gave her and envelope full of it looked like she gave her a few thousand bucks least

39:00

in there. You know, it's

39:02

worse. Yeah. I mean, think

39:04

that it's like it's like dehumanizing in a

39:06

way. Like, your

39:08

time was worth this much. Right? Yes. But Yeah. So so, yes, I think that's

39:10

very fair to say that that is an extremely

39:12

clumsy and

39:14

borderline insulting move to

39:16

do given, like, what Belinda was asking

39:18

for. But there is something she experienced about the

39:20

idea of, like, maybe Belinda,

39:22

if if if Tonya

39:25

the

39:25

hadn't treated Belinda so badly.

39:27

Like, Belinda might have actually been there

39:29

for Rachel and Rachel might not have gone back with Shane,

39:31

you know. Right? That's true. the strong

39:34

implication of the show.

39:36

And

39:37

Melinda sort of

39:40

gets punished. I

39:40

mean, I do think in some way, this show is sort telling you I

39:43

don't wanna say it does

39:44

both sides. But I do

39:47

think in some in

39:49

some slight way were

39:52

supposed to think, well,

39:54

Belinda wanted it and

39:56

she was wrong to want it.

39:58

I don't

39:59

know. Maybe that's reaching too far, but I think

39:59

a slight element of

40:02

that. Like, all

40:03

these rich people are terrible. think

40:06

my interpretation is she was wrong

40:08

to trust Tanya. Like, that was

40:10

my that was my interpretation. It's

40:12

like, she wasn't wrong to want it, but she shouldn't have trusted Tanya because

40:14

she went all in. She was like, yes, Tanya

40:16

is gonna answer my dreams of like, there's no

40:18

way that's gonna happen. Like,

40:21

I knew from the outset that that was not

40:23

gonna happen for her. So, like, hopefully, she's

40:25

gonna be smarter next time around. And, you know, that was

40:27

one of the most brutal scenes

40:29

was after Belinda It talks to Tanya,

40:32

it talks to Rachel.

40:34

She said,

40:35

like, getting up on

40:37

the, you know, on the

40:40

rock face or whatever and waving at the next crew that's coming in and

40:42

smiling. And I think that's one

40:44

of the great things about the show is

40:47

it does

40:48

help you understand how dehumanizing

40:50

the surface industry is. You

40:52

know? Yeah. And and

40:54

how how much we expect of

40:56

our essential workers. And how

40:59

cyclical. Right? Yeah. Yeah. The demand

41:01

is you do this day

41:03

in and day out. I

41:05

mean, you don't have variation. You

41:08

are purely existent on,

41:10

as you said, the whims of others. Yeah.

41:12

To go back to

41:13

just the the final point about the the Shakespeare

41:15

in nature of, like -- Mhmm. -- Blinda, you

41:18

know, gets upset

41:20

by Tanya and then, like, gives you

41:22

know, doesn't wanna help out, Rachel.

41:24

Like, almost it feels like the message of that

41:26

is that the

41:28

system of you

41:29

know,

41:30

people who are privileged

41:32

oppressing or disregarding those

41:35

who are under them like,

41:38

helps to reinforce the existing system in

41:40

a weird way, which is, like, in that in that

41:42

way. Right? It was

41:44

that she blinda being hurt, then could not help Rachel

41:46

get out of the system, you know,

41:48

in that scenario. I don't know how

41:50

common that,

41:52

like, specific set of circumstances, but, you know, it is,

41:54

like, thematically does fit in a little bit. So

41:56

Right. And I mean, I think and I think,

41:58

again,

41:59

it's, like, why is it Belinda's place to help Rachel

42:02

do that? Exactly.

42:03

Right? Yeah. So And it's

42:05

about how

42:05

much emotional labor people

42:07

expect for free. Right? And,

42:10

like, that's another theme

42:12

that runs throughout the

42:14

season. But

42:15

the Let's

42:16

talk about the some of those workers. Right? Specifically,

42:18

we gotta talk about Armand, who

42:20

is the star of the show,

42:24

I mean, what an amazing performance.

42:27

I didn't know who

42:29

Murray Bartlett was before this the

42:31

season began, and I was just completely blown away.

42:34

And he is so good

42:36

in the season

42:38

one finale as well with the

42:40

the dinner scene where he's, like, greeting everyone for

42:43

dinner. It's ultra slow motion. It's like

42:45

amazing, you know. But he

42:49

has the sense of this guy who both has a great customer

42:51

service voice like, hello, welcome to the

42:53

White Lotus, and also is barely

42:55

keeping it together behind

42:58

the scenes. And just what a

43:00

wonderful, richly textured performance.

43:02

Obviously, somebody who has a

43:04

tragic end And,

43:06

yeah, I wanna talk about the

43:08

murder mystery element. But before we get to

43:10

that, overall thoughts on Arment, Yeah.

43:13

I mean, Arment is amazing. Again, it's

43:15

it's a very smart thing to make

43:17

the show begin

43:19

with his

43:20

error. because

43:22

I think then as viewers were thinking of,

43:24

okay, well, he's overworked. He's lost stuff

43:26

going on. This place is demanding too much.

43:29

He made a mistake.

43:32

how can he quote unquote

43:33

fix it? Is there anything he

43:35

can do to fix it? So

43:37

I think as

43:38

we're following him around on this

43:40

journey, at a certain point,

43:42

I

43:42

think the show flips your

43:45

perspective from thinking how is

43:47

he gonna fix it to he

43:49

really shouldn't have to fix it, like who cares? And I think

43:51

Murray Bartlett, the power of his performance is sort

43:54

of making you

43:56

go from they're the

43:58

patents are right, and they deserve

43:59

something to even

44:01

if the patents are right, they don't

44:04

deserve it. And you sort

44:06

of understand why Armand

44:08

would think that after all of these years of

44:10

working at this place and seeing these kind

44:12

of people, but Bartlett's performance

44:14

is amazing. I mean, he just

44:17

switches on a dime between

44:20

these character traits. And I think,

44:22

you know, we've talked about how wonderful everyone is, and

44:24

everyone is wonderful. But I

44:26

do think that performance is probably the most

44:28

indicative of what White

44:30

is trying to say about

44:33

what these jobs due to

44:36

you over time. because it's not a

44:38

career. Right? Mhmm.

44:39

It's Well, it it can be.

44:41

It can be. But but I think

44:43

it's a very precarious one.

44:45

You know, as as his trajectory in the

44:47

season shows, he's you

44:50

can piss off one rich person and then your

44:52

career is over. like, that's kind of what what

44:55

we see taking place. And

44:57

and as a viewer, you are

44:59

just enraged by the injustice

45:01

of it all. you know. And so,

45:04

like like that that

45:06

a POS, like Jake Lacey's character, should

45:08

be the one that wields the power in this situation.

45:10

Doesn't make any sense? you

45:12

know, it doesn't make any sense, but it is

45:14

the system that we live in. So, it's,

45:18

you know, the the final

45:20

scenes of the episode are shocking. He decides

45:22

to go back to Jake's Jake

45:25

Lacey's character's room and take a

45:27

crap in the suitcase. it

45:30

coming out, which I was stunned by.

45:32

I was like, wow, that's I don't think I've seen

45:34

that in the TV show in a pretty long time.

45:37

and then he's stabbed and by

45:39

accident, you know, and then

45:41

and killed. The

45:44

episode began with a

45:46

murder mystery type or the season began with a murder mystery type deal where you're like, is

45:48

in the casket? And I did appreciate

45:50

how the show had faked you

45:53

many times. Like, John Grease's character,

45:55

Greg, has a heavy cough. Mhmm.

45:58

And in general, when a character has

45:59

a cough

45:59

on a TV

46:02

show, they're gonna die. Like, that's -- Mhmm.

46:04

-- ninety nine percent of the time. If you start healthy, don't get a cough.

46:06

They're gonna die. Right? Don't cough.

46:11

So, yeah, it's like, is it

46:13

gonna be John Grease's character? Is it

46:15

gonna be Shane doing some dumb stuff? Is

46:17

it gonna be Kai who, like, accidentally gets caught up

46:19

with the robbery. So you don't know who's gonna die until the very end.

46:22

Enthematically, it does make sense

46:24

that that Armand is the one to die. I

46:26

mean, he

46:28

he is the one that in the

46:31

construct of the show or

46:34

in the construct of this system

46:36

of capitalism, His

46:38

life is, quote unquote, worthless. I don't feel that way, but I

46:40

think the show is basically saying, like, these are

46:42

people whose fates can be just decided at

46:45

a whim without any consideration

46:47

by complete dipshits. So inherently, they're

46:49

worthless, and and the show kind of

46:51

makes that point

46:55

with the stirring finality by

46:57

killing the character of Armand.

47:00

Now, I I am kinda curious like yeah. So I I

47:02

thought the I thought the murder mystery stuff worked fine.

47:04

Like, throughout the season, they

47:06

weren't, like, multiple times

47:07

in

47:08

episode cutting to the casket

47:11

and being like, I wonder who it is, you know, like,

47:13

it was it was, like, fairly subtle. So that

47:16

was good about it. I

47:18

was all secure but but it was, like, one of

47:20

the things that, kept me watching. And I am curious I am

47:22

curious, like, in season

47:24

2II don't think there's gonna be a murder

47:26

mystery is my guess because I'll be a little bit

47:28

too coincidental. But

47:30

I wonder if there's some other similar construct there. Anyway,

47:34

so You think well, and

47:36

I think what will be

47:37

interesting is to see how

47:40

does this show function as an anthology.

47:42

Right? I mean, my understanding was

47:44

that it became an anthology after

47:46

the very successful

47:48

season one. which was like a

47:50

big, little, lives thing

47:50

that happened. So I think it's just

47:53

a matter of like, what connective tissue is

47:55

it? We know there's gonna

47:57

be a resort presumably

47:58

they're gonna be a lot of rich people. What is

47:59

it like a hangover two type

48:02

situation where everything

48:04

is identical? But

48:06

we're just in a different place. Yeah. I'm

48:08

really curious to what level of sort of

48:11

mimicry or recreation we're

48:14

gonna get. Yeah.

48:15

That's a that's a great

48:17

question. I will tell you

48:19

that I have

48:22

been to the actual

48:22

filming location of the White Lotus season

48:25

one. And this will probably be a last

48:27

opportunity to talk about it in a way that

48:29

makes any sense. Yeah.

48:32

But Well, it's it was completely fascinating

48:35

Roxanna because there

48:38

were probably I

48:40

am not exaggerating. I probably saw approximately

48:42

one thousand people when

48:44

I was there.

48:45

And, like,

48:47

it is just packed to

48:49

the gills with people. Wow. This

48:50

was I went in, like,

48:53

summer fall of twenty twenty

48:55

one, basically. Okay. And

48:58

it was like, the

49:00

show makes it seem

49:01

like, oh, this is a tiny intimate

49:04

resort with, like,

49:06

maybe small. hundred to two hundred

49:08

people. I mean, there were hundreds

49:10

upon hundreds of people ever. There's also a

49:12

wedding going on at the at the time we

49:14

were there. So it was like but but but but, like, I'm saying, there was, like,

49:16

hundreds of people separate from the wedding.

49:18

Like, it was just, like,

49:20

overwhelmingly large

49:22

quantity people. So I was actually incredibly

49:24

impressed with how they're able to make

49:26

it look so small. Now, they shot it during COVID and

49:28

apparently everyone just stayed at the resort. So, you know,

49:30

like That makes sense. Yeah. That that was helpful,

49:32

but But I agree with you. I'm

49:35

also very curious, like, it

49:37

doesn't feel like a second season that

49:39

was born out of, like, I had

49:41

another story to tell necessarily because it was always

49:43

intended to be a limited series is my understanding.

49:45

Mhmm. And so that you're in the

49:47

danger zone already. because

49:50

there have been times as crew detective season

49:52

two, a great example where, like, season two

49:54

is, like, rushed to production.

49:56

production and the

49:57

scripts were not in a good state, you

49:59

know.

49:59

And so I've I've such mixed

50:02

feelings on true detective season too.

50:04

Mhmm. I think that I've liked it more each

50:06

time I rewatch it, but I can't figure

50:08

out if I'm convincing myself of that

50:10

or it's actually,

50:12

like, good. It's hard to

50:14

tell. It's hard to say. Fair

50:15

enough. Fair enough. Were

50:18

there any

50:18

moments at the resort where

50:21

you were like, oh, hey, that place from

50:23

that

50:23

scene. Yes. Yes. Tons of

50:25

moments like, you know, the place where they eat

50:27

breakfast every day is like, I don't

50:29

think it's actually a restaurant in the in the real

50:32

resort. The place where

50:34

Quinn like sits and,

50:36

you know, goes

50:37

to sleep every night, you know, on the beach. It's

50:39

it's like it's very easy to it's very accessible. And

50:41

I'm like, it's the place, and it looks exactly the

50:44

same. And so you know,

50:46

the place where the patents hang

50:48

out, you know, near the the the bar and everything like

50:50

that. That's all there. It's all there. So it's, like,

50:53

you know, unlike some places

50:55

where or some shows where you watch

50:57

it and you go to the place that looks nothing

50:59

like it. It's like, wow. It

51:01

is identical except the real place is way, way,

51:04

way bigger. Mhmm.

51:06

And because it's way bigger, it's a little

51:09

bit less nice feeling than what's on the show. Like, what's

51:11

in the show feels like a very boutique, like,

51:13

you know. Mhmm. I should point out I did

51:15

not actually stay there. I just, like, went

51:17

there and kind of looked around because I had heard. And it it is it's just the you know,

51:19

instead of the white Lotus, it says the four seasons

51:21

there. You know? And

51:24

so but it's it was a fascinating experience to go. And

51:28

and I yeah. So but to to the the

51:30

point of what season two is, like, what are the themes

51:34

gonna be and is a

51:36

luxury

51:36

hotel resort that has

51:38

locations around the world enough

51:40

to hang a multi season

51:43

on the question. Like, is that enough of a

51:46

unifying factor?

51:48

Will it explore other realms of

51:50

privilege? You know, is kind of what

51:52

my question question is. So we

51:55

won't be

51:55

finding out your place. Yeah. Go ahead.

51:58

Yeah. And,

51:58

like, and will the place where

51:59

it's set sort of have

52:01

more of a role to play? Like, are

52:03

we gonna talk more about

52:06

tourism and whether it's

52:08

exploitative for the people who

52:10

live there? I mean, are we

52:11

gonna do the class

52:14

thing again? Or are we gonna

52:16

sort

52:16

of expand? Are we gonna do

52:18

more of how do men feel manly

52:21

or any of that sort of thing?

52:23

I

52:23

mean, there are various subplots that we

52:25

could pull on something that we

52:27

didn't really talk about, but that I think is interesting is that

52:30

Armand, before he sort of meets

52:32

his untimely

52:35

sad and is sort of

52:37

a nightmare boss? Like, he's sort

52:39

of been trained by White

52:42

Lotus to almost treat

52:44

his employees also as

52:46

sort of replaceable. And so

52:48

I'm curious too if we

52:50

get more of a commentary

52:52

on how do people who work in

52:54

these places treat each other too.

52:56

Like, does that kind of

52:58

dismissiveness from the wealthy

53:00

trickle down? I would be curious

53:03

about that.

53:03

Yeah. Yeah. I do think

53:06

that the show didn't really do enough on

53:08

the, you know, when it came

53:10

to the

53:12

perspective of whether

53:14

or

53:15

not

53:16

tourism is exploitative.

53:18

Yeah. You know, and specifically

53:21

with Hawaii, which is very quite controversial. I'm gonna be

53:23

honest with you, like, after

53:27

I made that trip

53:29

to Hawaii during which I visited the Four Seasons, AK of

53:31

White Lotus, IIII

53:36

had, like, a bit of a crisis of

53:39

conscious of of not knowing if

53:41

it was okay to go to Hawaii

53:43

anymore. You know, like, I think

53:45

that there's many people

53:46

who live on Hawaii that are, like,

53:47

please don't come anymore. You know, like, don't we

53:50

don't want the tourism anymore.

53:52

And it's,

53:54

like, who who are we to say no to that?

53:56

So so it was something that I thought about

53:58

and it was something that I didn't think the show really

54:01

explored at all. Like -- Yeah. -- it it made reference

54:03

vaguely to the fact that, like, there were native peoples that have

54:06

rituals, but it's not it doesn't

54:08

examine the injustice of any of this

54:10

at all. Right. It just I

54:12

mean, it had Kai's family -- Yes. --

54:14

their land was taken from them. Yeah. And

54:16

Paul's whole deal

54:16

is that she wants to steal the jewelry

54:18

to help Kai get a lawyer etcetera,

54:21

etcetera. But again, the jewelry was worth seventy five thousand

54:23

dollars. Paula, that's not enough. That's

54:25

not gonna help you in

54:27

a land war not

54:30

gonna work. So poor ball up. She

54:33

didn't know any better. III

54:35

will say

54:35

I have been invited

54:38

to Hawaii. And I'm planning to go in early November

54:40

-- Mhmm. -- by a Hawaiian

54:44

organization to

54:46

be part of a film festival there. And so that I'm extremely

54:48

excited about because I'm like, oh, like,

54:50

I can actually go relatively guilt

54:52

free because -- Yes. you know,

54:55

I'm being invited there. But but yeah. And and and and and and and by

54:57

the I should point out there are ways to

54:59

visit Hawaii responsibly, you know. And I've I've

55:01

since learned more about what

55:04

that is. But but I do think that that that is a

55:06

legacy of the show is

55:08

that I do think,

55:11

for me, there are

55:13

shows that, like, have a really strong perspective on right and wrong,

55:15

like the wire, you know. And there

55:17

are shows that have that that are good at,

55:19

like, bringing up

55:22

questions. And and this show did both.

55:24

But, like, even if it didn't take

55:26

a position on visiting Hawaii

55:30

very strongly, you know, like, or oppression

55:32

of date of people or things of that nature,

55:34

it still got me to think

55:38

about them. You know, it's still like by very the nature of depicting them, I'm like,

55:40

oh, no. I I wanna think about I wanna explore that

55:42

more. I wanna dig into that more. Whether

55:44

or not that was intentional or unintentional,

55:47

on the show's part, but I

55:49

do appreciate that. So even when I

55:51

say the commentary was lacking

55:53

on that still appreciate the show for even kind of bringing

55:55

it up at all. Okay. So yeah.

55:58

Just just sort of a a

55:59

coincidence of

56:00

timing is that this came out

56:03

still when people were,

56:06

I think, doing a little bit more

56:08

about COVID precautions, so you

56:10

still had portions of the

56:12

country who were doing more like

56:14

masking and staying inside and sort

56:16

of self quarantining and all that stuff.

56:18

And you also still had a bunch of people who

56:20

were traveling all the time and just not changing

56:22

how they lived. So I think it was

56:24

interesting for me as well to sort of

56:26

watch

56:26

the sort of watch a show

56:27

a show that asks you to consider

56:30

what are the people

56:31

that you're forcing

56:32

to work for you on these vacations

56:36

what are they dealing with and what are they going through.

56:38

And during COVID, that was relevant.

56:40

And I think just any time,

56:43

that's

56:43

relevant. So I appreciate

56:45

the show for, like you said, offering

56:47

up those questions and forcing them

56:50

to sort

56:51

of tackle them. have you been in the service industry before

56:53

at Roxanne or you or your family been in service

56:56

industry? I'm curious. Right.

56:58

My my I mean, my

57:00

dad was owned and ran a

57:02

Chinese restaurant for almost two

57:04

decades during which my

57:06

brother and I worked there for many years.

57:08

So, like, I'm very as like, cashier and stuff like that. So, like, I'm

57:10

very familiar

57:12

with, you know, what it's like to work at

57:14

a restaurant, do, like, all

57:16

the jobs at a restaurant other than cooking.

57:19

I

57:19

do. I did restaurant stuff. I mean, it

57:21

was, like, Panera, Basker

57:24

Robbins, like, summer

57:26

type of things. And then my

57:29

partner does some

57:31

service industry stuff and worked at

57:34

those experiences where

57:36

you have sort of the nightmare

57:37

customer. Right?

57:40

Mine was the

57:42

woman at Basker Robbins who was on the phone and

57:44

let her child order anything he

57:46

wanted. And he ordered Reese's peanut butter

57:49

cup

57:49

ice cream and then she blamed

57:51

me that I didn't know that he was allergic to

57:53

peanut butter. So, you know,

57:56

like, everybody has everybody

57:58

has a version of that type

57:59

of story.

58:01

So we know beside Roxanna's gonna

58:03

be on for the White Lotus season two. Yeah.

58:05

You know, that'll be on the don't let

58:07

your child order ice cream might

58:09

harm them side. So --

58:12

Yeah. -- maybe we'll get that. Who knows?

58:14

Yeah.

58:14

Indeed. Well, this has been

58:17

so wonderful to chat with you about the show. I'm so excited to dive

58:19

into season two with you. And again, you can expect

58:22

episodes to come out at podcast. t coding tv

58:24

dot com within a couple

58:26

days after this the show airs

58:28

on HBO on Sunday

58:30

nights. Until next time, Roxanna, you

58:32

wanna tell people where they can find more of your work in

58:34

the meantime? Sure.

58:35

You can find my work at Vulture.

58:37

You can find me on Twitter,

58:39

and you know, I'm just That's it.

58:41

That's my corner of the Internet. Alright. We'll

58:43

link to those in the show notes.

58:46

But if you want to let us know what you think

58:48

of the white letters and what you're looking forward

58:50

to, decoding t v at gmail

58:52

dot com, Also follow us on Twitter, TikTok, and YouTube TV.

58:54

She is Roxanna Haddadi. I am

58:56

David Chen. Thank you so much for listening.

58:59

We'll see you for next week's

59:01

episode, the season premiere of the White Lotus Season two.

59:04

Goodbye. the by Goodbye.

59:06

the