0:00

Hey

0:00

folks, David Chen here. You're about to hear a bonus

0:02

episode where Kim Renfro and I reflect on

0:04

season one of House of the Dragon. I do just

0:06

wanna point out that Kim Rainford and I will only

0:08

be back intermittently throughout the year on

0:10

a cast of Kings podcast. I

0:13

will be covering TV every week over

0:15

at the decoding TV podcast at

0:17

podcast dot decoding TV dot

0:19

com. Right now, we're covering the white Lotus

0:21

and andor. We have much more planned

0:24

for the feature. So give decoding TV

0:26

a subscriber scribe. Won't you at podcast dot

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decoding TV dot com? Thanks so much

0:31

to everyone who's been listening this season and has

0:33

made the show a success. We really appreciate it.

0:35

Enjoy the bonus episode. Hello,

0:37

everyone, and welcome to a cast of

0:40

Kings bonus episode. I'm

0:42

David Chen here with Kim Renfro. On today's

0:44

episode of The podcast, We

0:47

are just going to reflect on the

0:49

season pick up a few loose ends

0:51

that came out as a result of

0:54

the season finale of House of the Dragon

0:56

season one. Talk about

0:58

our general thoughts on the season,

1:01

anything we didn't share last time. and

1:03

just kind of wrap things up for this

1:05

season of a cast of kings. Kim,

1:08

let me start by asking you this

1:11

question, you know. we

1:13

talked a little bit about how you you felt last

1:15

week wrapping

1:17

everything up, and I guess I am curious, like,

1:20

you know, looking back on the season and any

1:22

further thoughts beyond what we'd already

1:24

discussed? I

1:26

think in general,

1:29

I'm

1:29

just feeling so much more chill

1:31

compared to like my post season

1:33

experiences of most of Game of Thrones,

1:35

like, it's been really nice.

1:38

It's it feels like we got a nice

1:41

like

1:41

gentle

1:43

release What

1:46

was a very,

1:46

like, exciting

1:50

the It

1:52

was a very busy time during

1:54

the season, but, like, it went by so fast.

1:56

And it's kind of nice to, like, sit in a little bit

1:58

of, like, the afterglow,

1:59

be, like, oh, cool. Like, we did that, not

2:02

only with, like, the recap podcast, but

2:04

with the whole show and kind of, like, feeling

2:07

how the fandom was gonna be responding

2:09

again to this new series that was pretty

2:11

unknown. So, yeah,

2:13

just overall good vibes heading

2:15

out of the season, which isn't always the

2:17

case. So I appreciate

2:19

that. How about

2:20

Well, I should also point out that we got

2:23

tons of emails of of which I forwarded

2:25

you, like, almost all of them. Yeah. at

2:28

a caskings at g mail dot com just basically

2:31

from folks such as yourself, such as listeners

2:34

as yourselves, talking about how

2:36

much we added to your

2:38

lives. And

2:40

I saw one woman actually made a TikTok

2:42

that was, like, about how, like,

2:44

we were such a critical part of their Monday like,

2:47

you know, they would put on

2:49

the podcast and, like, do their makeup and hair

2:51

and stuff like that. And it was, like, AAA key part of

2:53

their routine. And and they're very sad now that it's

2:55

not happening. You know? And And

2:58

so I do wanna say thank you, you know, something

3:00

that I have said

3:02

earlier this season is, hey, hashtag tell

3:06

people whose work you like that you like their

3:08

work or whatever it is. Like,

3:10

basically, like, if you like people's work, you should tell

3:12

them. Not not not even just applying it to this podcast.

3:14

I'm saying in general because I think it really is

3:16

important. But

3:19

people definitely took that advice to heart, and

3:21

we did get a ton of emails. So thank you so

3:23

much. I think it means

3:25

a lot. And it's

3:27

interesting to hear your perspective, Kim,

3:29

I think for me, I had a fairly

3:31

different perspective on a fairly

3:33

different reaction to the first season, which

3:35

is like, think

3:38

about it like I

3:42

was drive I was I was

3:44

helping to drive a car -- Mhmm. --

3:46

call the Cass of Kings. And then the car's

3:49

engine vanish,

3:51

and it went to a very successful podcast

3:54

and podcast network. And then it's like,

3:56

okay. gotta keep driving the car, but there's no engine

3:58

anymore. And and

4:00

by the way, there's, like,

4:03

people who enjoy watching

4:05

the car, there's other people who are willing to pay

4:07

for the car to continue going.

4:09

Mhmm. And I just need to keep the car going

4:11

somehow. Gotcha. And so

4:14

you worthy engine, basically

4:16

Kim, that that powered cast kings through

4:18

this this season. You've built me in real

4:20

time. The power was fly of

4:22

the freeway. And

4:24

and we got to the end of the season at

4:26

the end. I'm like, oh, thank god the car kept

4:29

going for that. You know, like, that's kind of fun. I thought,

4:31

like, release. then,

4:33

like, we made it to the end. And I've

4:36

obviously already expressed my gratitude many

4:38

times, and I'm not gonna do it again,

4:40

but I'll just, you know, that that's kind

4:42

of been my experience is that,

4:44

like, I'm very proud of what we're

4:46

able to And at the end of the day, I'm like, oh, I

4:48

can't I can't believe that worked

4:50

because there were so many things that had to happen for

4:52

that to work -- For sure. --

4:54

and between, like, editing the between

4:56

finding an amazing editor, named Kurt.

4:58

Yeah. Shoutout, who did our TikToks

5:00

and has generated many, many millions

5:02

of views on TikToks. And we've gotten so many

5:04

emails from people who are, like, I heard

5:06

about you from TikTok, and, you know, that's why

5:08

I started listening. And so from

5:10

from finding you, Kim, from you agreeing to do it, to

5:12

encourage doing the videos, to you

5:14

know, the show being good, the

5:17

the hustle dragon being good, like, all

5:19

those things needed to line up -- Yeah. -- for this

5:21

season to go well. Yeah. And they

5:23

all did. Yeah. And it

5:25

was, like, at the end of the day, I'm, like, okay.

5:28

I'm extremely grateful for that. And,

5:31

you know, I think there

5:35

there's also a sense of, like, hey, you

5:38

know, you you hit the you hit the

5:40

right number in roulette, like, don't

5:42

double down and push all the chips onto that

5:44

number again, kind of. Mhmm. There's a there's

5:46

a you know, like, you and I have have spoken

5:48

about, like, potentially doing other things on this feed

5:50

and we we decided, like, hey.

5:52

Let's just wait until the next game with

5:54

their own thing -- Mhmm. -- comes around. And it's like

5:56

I'm kinda like, yeah. Let's let's

5:58

not push our luck. Like, let's Yeah.

6:00

This was great and, like, you know,

6:02

it's a great thing and we can do it again

6:04

when House of Dragon season two comes out. But --

6:06

Yeah. It's like we

6:08

it's like we entered a sprint race

6:11

with no preparation. Yeah. And, like,

6:13

we did it, and

6:14

that felt great, but we're not about to, like,

6:16

continue running America. Yeah. And then I'll continue

6:18

going on America. Right. Exactly. So giving

6:20

ourselves -- Yeah. -- a little reset. And,

6:22

yeah, I would also just like to reiterate when you

6:24

said of of just thank you to all the people

6:26

who have been emailing, you know,

6:28

Twitter DM ing, public, Twitter,

6:31

praising. It's been

6:33

incredibly validating,

6:35

I think, to hear that what

6:37

we said was so helpful and so

6:40

part and parcel with people's pleasant

6:42

experience of the season so far. because I

6:44

definitely have a tendency to be like like,

6:46

I feel like it's been great doing this podcast

6:48

with you because I feel very, like, relaxed

6:51

and the way that I get to talk to you is similar

6:53

to how I would talk to my friends if they were asking

6:55

me questions about the show and relaxing. And I

6:57

don't always believe that someone would find

6:59

that

6:59

interesting other than, like,

7:01

my close friends or family or whatever. And

7:03

now I'm, like, oh, right.

7:04

Like, I am able to

7:06

to have these kinds of conversations and

7:08

bring my full

7:10

song of ice and fire,

7:12

fire, and blood, brain

7:15

memory

7:16

bank. Yeah. Put it put it to

7:18

good use and it's Well, I think I think this season

7:20

has shown that, you know, people do wanna hear your

7:22

thoughts. I am super

7:24

impressed by the way in which Kim

7:27

expresses herself. Just

7:31

honestly, like, the way

7:33

you express yourself is, like, perfectly designed

7:35

for this you may take this

7:37

as an insult, but, like, it's perfectly designed for

7:39

TikTok where where and

7:41

I mean it as a compliment and that you are able to,

7:43

like, convey not

7:45

only interesting factual details, but

7:47

also, like, summarize the thematic importance

7:50

in a very very quick manner. So

7:52

but enough about, like, the the self

7:54

complementing of each other, I know. I do I do have

7:56

one other question enough of the love fest.

7:58

Enough of the love fest. I do have one

8:00

question before we get into kind of some of the bigger

8:02

topics of this season. Uh-huh.

8:04

Which is like You

8:05

have written about Game of Thrones for many years. Like,

8:08

it has the experience

8:10

of podcasting about it been fundamentally different

8:12

because talking with Sudhakar over

8:14

on decoding TV podcast. You

8:17

know, he has been writing at place

8:19

like IGN for many years and

8:22

he's used to, like, a certain mode of interaction

8:24

with people. Right? Or if you're writing and putting your

8:26

work out, it's, like, people interact with you in a

8:28

certain way. they form a different kind of

8:30

relationship with you than if you are podcasting. And I'm

8:32

curious, like, if you've experienced differently, like,

8:34

do you get more tweets or

8:36

emails or whatever or people saying, like, hey, great job

8:38

or, like, then if you're writing or is

8:40

the tone different? Like, I I'm curious, like,

8:42

you I've been podcasting for over a decade.

8:44

You've just started -- Mhmm.

8:46

-- three months ago. And

8:49

so what has that experience like compared

8:51

to writing about it? Yeah.

8:53

I think I'm

8:54

I'm

8:55

getting a lot more feedback on

8:57

the podcast directly, probably

8:59

because it's such a more like personal

9:01

format.

9:01

for people to be hearing my voice and

9:04

and

9:04

hear my all of my little intonations

9:07

and quirks

9:08

of my personality, I think probably out a

9:10

little bit more when I'm talking versus when I'm

9:12

writing, I have a pretty, like, consistent

9:14

voice -- Yeah. -- in my writing.

9:16

And also,

9:17

I don't know about you, but before I was

9:20

actually in the writing business, I

9:22

wasn't the type of person that paid very

9:24

close attention to by lines. Like, I would --

9:26

Mhmm. --

9:26

I would know I would

9:28

know what outlet I was reading. Yeah.

9:30

But I wouldn't necessarily notice if I

9:32

was following the exact same writer. Yeah.

9:34

Well, I think that that's just that's just the

9:36

nature of writing articles is that I'm sure that

9:38

plenty of I I mean, I know for a fact

9:40

because I have the data. that many

9:42

people are reading my articles, but I don't know

9:44

that all of them are always being like,

9:45

oh, that's a Kim Renfro article. It's

9:47

just like a cool house in

9:49

the Dragon Art goal that they've come across or

9:52

whatever. Well, first of all, I mean, one one

9:54

of the aspects of this season is people

9:56

love the Kim Ren for impressions. that.

9:58

Like, multiple people have said,

10:00

like, the Kim run for impressions are what get me through

10:02

the week, you know. So I will

10:04

try and add some of those flourishes

10:06

more often. But Oh, I'm

10:08

reading a Kim Renfrope piece. I'm reading a

10:10

Kim Renfro article. It's very fascinating. I'm

10:12

gonna go find this Kim Renfro and tell

10:14

her.

10:14

that does happen, and it's amazing when that

10:16

happens. But I think that it's it's

10:17

less likely to happen just by

10:20

nature of the medium. So that's

10:22

that's sort of been the biggest difference as

10:24

having people

10:24

respond to

10:27

what

10:27

feels like me personally a little

10:29

bit more than, like, my my

10:32

articles, which I don't know if

10:34

I read things in my own voice in my

10:36

head. Mhmm. Yeah. I don't know if you do that either. So

10:38

it's like, There's a

10:40

separation there. Yeah.

10:41

Interesting. Okay.

10:44

Well, enough

10:46

naval gazing. Let's talk about some

10:48

of the stuff that actually happened in the season of

10:50

the House of Dragon. So first

10:53

of all, I want to begin by

10:55

acknowledging that we got, I don't know, a

10:57

ton of comments, a ton of

10:59

comments, like, emails at at caskings at g mail

11:01

dot people writing in at d coating TV

11:03

dot com, basically saying, David

11:05

Chen, you're wrong about Reneera and you're you should

11:07

feel bad. Your opinions about Reneera are bad and you should

11:10

feel bad. is kind of the

11:12

overall tone of them is my opinion.

11:14

No. I'm just joking. People are very kind about

11:16

it. But as an example,

11:18

pernicious ducks rights So

11:20

so the to to remind people --

11:22

Mhmm. -- I was kinda like,

11:24

hey, hasn't Rainier been acting recklessly this

11:26

whole season? And now she's acting

11:28

super smart. Like, what's up with that? And you were like, I

11:30

don't think there's an inconsistency, and we got

11:32

a lot of Kim defenders, basically.

11:34

Pernicious ducks rights. The idea that

11:36

Reneer's relationship with Harwin Strong

11:38

was reckless baffles me.

11:40

Otto had put the idea in Allison's head that

11:42

Reneer would murder her children unless Aegon takes

11:44

a throne. long before a single

11:46

a single strong boy existed. It's a

11:48

giant red herring of an excuse.

11:50

These kids are as much Targaryen as

11:52

any of Alison's kids. It's only

11:54

due to chance that they have brown hair. It

11:56

fits foot model, Alison's holier

11:58

than thou image. That Rayonier

11:59

is some sort of harlitt running around town doing

12:02

whatever she wants. But Reneera had to have

12:04

children with someone to cement her claim to the throne,

12:06

and that couldn't happen with Lainer. She did

12:08

everything she could in the show to keep the peace,

12:10

including offering to marry her son

12:12

to Hélena. an option I'm sure Helena would prefer to her

12:14

current sex pest husband. But

12:16

no, Allison decided to push the war by

12:18

marrying her two kids together together.

12:20

something that Infinera did, she would condemn as

12:22

deviant, or she

12:23

would be condemned as deviant, I think. The

12:26

important bit

12:27

Is the

12:28

reason the realm is in danger has nothing to do

12:30

with her children having brown hair? It never

12:32

did. She would be in exactly this

12:34

situation if those children had platinum

12:37

blonde hair and slightly browner skin and were

12:39

one hundred percent Laynor's trueborn

12:41

sons. The cause for this war is her lack of

12:43

a penis. There's nothing she could have done to

12:45

change that and blaming her affair with as strong as

12:47

some real victim blaming in my book.

12:49

It wreaks of, well, if she wasn't wearing those

12:51

clothes, she could have prevented this whole thing. Additionally, I

12:53

wanna point out that if this is a sole cause of

12:55

the dispute, the option is on the table for Rainier

12:57

to admit that our first three boys are bachelors under

12:59

the condition of the treated well and named

13:01

Valkyries her firstborn and son with

13:03

Damon to be her heir. That kid is more

13:05

transparent than any of Alison's brood, problem

13:07

solved. But as I pointed out, this isn't

13:09

actually a problem at all. It's a halfhearted excuse

13:11

to blame the victim, and Minera has done nothing

13:13

but try and hold the realm together this entire season

13:15

end

13:16

quote. I mean, I think that's

13:18

some pretty strong language Britishducks is

13:20

using. Let me just

13:22

be clear. British Docs, obviously supporter

13:25

of a cast of kings.

13:26

the but

13:27

has hated my opinions about Alison this

13:30

whole season. So Wait about

13:32

Alison or Rainira. But

13:34

Alison, therefore, by extension Rainira.

13:36

Yeah. Yeah. Which is that III

13:38

find Allison the more sympathetic character

13:41

in many ways. Mhmm. And

13:43

and Patricia Stokes, I think from what I recall,

13:45

is convinced I'm doing this as a troll,

13:47

which, you know, very reasonable, but

13:49

it's not true. It's not true. Like, I I actually think

13:51

that's the case. That said, the most

13:54

convincing argument I heard is

13:56

basically, like,

13:57

Raynira, that was

13:59

partially reflected in British's ducks comment and also in other

14:01

people's comments is like -- Yeah. -- hey, Reinera would have

14:03

been an even more compromising sit situation. If

14:05

she had no kids, Right. Right? If she

14:07

had no kids, like, she would have been completely fucked

14:10

and, like and

14:11

so, like, that does

14:12

make a lot of sense.

14:13

Yeah. But

14:15

the yeah. Kim, I don't know if you

14:17

have anything to add to this, but

14:19

I mean, I first of all,

14:21

thank you so much for everybody backing

14:22

me up. I

14:25

love I love love you

14:27

love that energy for I love the energy of

14:29

-- Yeah. -- validated on the Internet. Yeah.

14:32

Yeah. But I I mean, I don't think

14:34

I I mean, I'm I still

14:36

agree with myself and with all the people

14:38

that wrote it. I I do think that, like,

14:40

you weren't being that hard on her. I

14:42

think it's No. I was not.

14:44

It's it's great. I think you were able

14:46

to,

14:46

you know, cover out on this like, well, if she didn't have

14:48

children, she would be an even more dangerous

14:51

opinion. And, yeah, just

14:53

in in general, I think, like,

14:55

bigger picture here. We have to

14:57

remember that, like, us the

14:59

audience deciding that either Rayonier

15:01

or Alison, that one of them is

15:03

behaving more badly, is just sort

15:05

of playing into the exact division.

15:07

that the men in the the

15:10

fictional men in the show put them in.

15:12

Right? And it's like, I don't think that we're supposed to

15:14

come away with this thinking

15:16

that we need

15:17

to believe that either

15:19

Alison or Rayonier has acted better

15:22

or, like, less badly than

15:24

the other. I think that they've both

15:26

made mistakes throughout their life, but, like, Ryan

15:28

Condell and the show runners and everyone keeps,

15:30

like, making the point that

15:32

Fire and blood the book,

15:34

this biased history, pitted

15:36

Radio and Allison against one another, and

15:39

the point of view that the show was trying to tell is

15:41

that it was not squarely on either of

15:42

their shoulders that this happened. It's it

15:44

was the choices of their fathers that

15:47

put them in these positions from a very young

15:49

age, and we're just watching them try and do

15:51

the best those

15:51

circumstances. So

15:54

yeah.

15:54

I

15:55

do see this kind of and

15:57

I I have tried to avoid it, but I I can't say

15:59

I've done

15:59

an amazing job And I haven't either. Like,

16:02

I've

16:02

been I've been anti Allison for

16:04

for different

16:04

episodes, you know. Right. Right. But

16:06

but yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. What are you saying? What are

16:08

you gonna say? was

16:09

gonna say, like, they are they are still

16:12

responsible for their actions and if they are hurting

16:14

other people, etcetera, etcetera. But the

16:16

bastard's thing in a glare with Rainier. I didn't

16:18

ever feel to me like it was coming from

16:20

a malicious or

16:22

thoughtless place versus,

16:24

like,

16:25

a a necessary transgression

16:29

in order to try and ensure

16:31

that she has some sort of line of

16:32

succession. out of that first

16:35

marriage. But -- Yeah.

16:36

-- I do think this is a part of

16:39

fandom these days, though, is

16:41

-- Mhmm. it's a key part

16:43

of Phantom that you need to take sides.

16:45

Yeah. And it's like, oh,

16:47

I need to be on so and so side,

16:49

and they need to be super sympathetic

16:51

and, like, and therefore, anyone against

16:53

that person I am against. Right.

16:57

And

16:57

I don't think it's healthy. And I'm

16:59

not and I'm not saying I had never fallen into it.

17:01

I probably have many times a season, but it's

17:03

not healthy, I don't think. And

17:06

certainly, it seems to be direct, as you

17:08

pointed out, directly against the themes of the show this

17:10

season. Right? I'm

17:12

just gonna read an interview from Ryan Condell and

17:14

from The New York Times about this. He says,

17:17

quote, At its most basic, this story

17:19

is about these two young women who are really

17:21

girls. There are fourteen when we meet them who are forced

17:23

into this political game of Thrones in the most

17:25

literal sense by their fathers. somewhat knowingly,

17:27

somewhat unknowingly on both sides. Decades

17:29

down the road when those seeds are allowed to grow in Bloom

17:32

and Allison's as a son who becomes Cheniere's chief rival,

17:34

what's gonna happen then? Is the

17:36

whole realm gonna just say, oh, well, we pick the girl. It

17:38

should be Raineyra. No. This is a

17:40

patriarchy. This is

17:40

a problem that values oh, sorry. This is a place that

17:42

values male strength and for gen preemergenature.

17:45

So it's a problem. It all goes back to Alison,

17:47

Ivernira, and their fathers. The daughters grew

17:49

up into adults who've been manipulated and poisoned

17:51

by their fathers in a world where they're taught we talked earlier about

17:54

picking sides. They go on to perpetuate this

17:56

division that began in the pilot. It's all about them and will

17:58

continue to be end quote. So

18:00

And III

18:01

will just say, like, I also see it

18:04

extend to this

18:06

podcast. k? You know? What what I

18:08

mean by that is and I I talked to you about

18:10

this, right, where And

18:12

podcast in

18:12

general where, like, people often feel

18:14

like they have to, like, take sides

18:17

on a podcast

18:18

for for, like, literally a podcast and

18:20

pick cohost against each other. Yeah.

18:22

Which I've seen in my in many

18:24

times over the course of my career, like,

18:28

particularly

18:29

when I complained about the time jumps, like, we

18:31

got a ton of hate for me

18:33

and a bunch of praise for Kim and, like,

18:35

peep people basically try literally trying

18:37

to pit us against each other, which is

18:40

which I was I was

18:41

honestly concerned about because

18:44

I haven't

18:45

worked like, for people I've worked with for, like, ten years,

18:47

whatever. They're not they're not going anywhere.

18:49

Like, it's like, they've we've been working together

18:51

for so long, you know, who gives you

18:53

and I just start to work together and it's very weird when you start getting,

18:55

like, a hundred messages being, like,

18:57

David Chegg fucking sucks and, like -- Yeah.

18:59

-- you know, Kim is smart, and

19:01

Kim, you shouldn't be working with David Chen. It's like, okay,

19:04

that's we that's really weird to

19:06

to happen to anyone. Like, in a working

19:08

environment where you just started working with

19:10

someone, And I just wish people, like, people

19:12

should understand that, like,

19:14

podcasts

19:14

such as this one are held together very

19:17

delicately. They're not, like,

19:20

we are not like

19:20

a massive institution that has

19:23

lasted for many years. Like, it's just literally

19:25

two people deciding we wanna get together and talk

19:27

every week. Yeah. And if that changes,

19:29

then it doesn't exist anymore. Like, the

19:31

podcast just goes away. But people don't think

19:33

about it like that. And and it and

19:35

it really bothers me. But, you know, people are

19:37

gonna do what they're gonna do. So You know,

19:39

it it never

19:40

once occurred to me to side

19:41

on on a Monday morning and

19:44

say, David Chegg, I received

19:46

four anonymous DMs

19:48

from strangers who told

19:51

me that your opinions are are wrong.

19:53

And therefore, I shouldn't I shouldn't talk to

19:55

you anymore because you're

19:57

wrong. It's you know,

19:59

yeah, I find that

20:03

extremely

20:03

pointless to, like,

20:05

to say that

20:06

someone's takes on a show or

20:08

bad or wrong

20:09

or invaluable to

20:11

a conversation when I know

20:13

for a fact that you're not alone and how you felt

20:16

about that. you're not the only person in

20:18

the world who had

20:20

that reaction to time jumps. And

20:21

Ryan Condell himself admits that it was an

20:23

incredibly risky thing to

20:25

do. Yeah.

20:27

And, yeah, I feel

20:29

like we have talked about that a

20:31

lot, but my point is that I appreciate you,

20:33

David Chen, and all of your thoughts and feelings. And even

20:35

though it's nice to be validated when people

20:37

agree with me, I'm not like wanting people

20:40

to tell me that I'm right and you're wrong.

20:42

Like,

20:42

that's not Right. I just think it's

20:44

it's fascinating that, like

20:47

and

20:47

I'm I'm interrogating, like, my own thoughts

20:49

on it too. Like, Like, what is it that makes me want

20:51

to take, like, team Allison's side on?

20:53

You know, is there something in me that's, like,

20:55

I must win. Brineura is wrong.

20:57

I must like, I I

20:59

do have a contrarian streak within me personally, you know,

21:02

as a human being. And so

21:04

but, yeah, I do see, like

21:05

and it's not just my podcast, like,

21:07

other podcasts or other podcasts that aren't mine,

21:09

like, people often wanna, like, be, like,

21:12

so and so is great. And so and so, like, in

21:14

the reviews, read read any podcast

21:16

review. And yeah, tons of people are like, so and so great. So and so suck. And

21:18

it's like, they wanna, like, take sides in the

21:20

podcast and on TV, and in

21:22

whatever they're consuming, And I

21:24

just

21:24

think it's

21:25

not healthy and it's it's not healthy

21:27

and counterproductive, I think, in general. You

21:29

know? Yeah.

21:30

Yeah. Or, like, take your side, but, like,

21:32

you said that doesn't automatically mean

21:34

that everybody who disagrees with you is some

21:36

sort of an enemy.

21:37

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You

21:39

can feel confident and, like, steadfast

21:41

in your take, in your analysis of the show,

21:44

and then, like, listen to other

21:46

people or not, like, if you seek that out

21:48

great. But then it's, like, you can't control

21:50

what other people feel

21:52

about the

21:53

show nor should you want to

21:55

because everybody's their own

21:56

person. Indeed. It's a whole beautiful tapestry. Mhmm.

21:59

And I'm grateful that have that open mind in this game.

22:02

Thanks. So New York Times, I was

22:04

just quoting from an interview with

22:06

Ryan Condell. Headline of

22:07

New York Times article, Ryan Condell was surprised

22:09

people liked House of The Dragon so quickly.

22:12

A

22:13

bunch of little tidbits in this interview Kim.

22:15

But the the headline is, like,

22:18

what surprised Ryan Condell, and he says,

22:20

quote, I was surprised in a happy way about how quickly

22:22

everyone embraced House of Dragon.

22:24

I really thought it was gonna be more of a hill to climb

22:26

because we were following the Beatles. And how do you do

22:28

that? You don't. You don't just try to do your own thing and

22:30

hope it connects with people. but I

22:32

was shocked people came right out the gate and accepted it generally.

22:34

This massive fandom, tens of millions of

22:36

people watching the show, writing about it, and talking

22:39

about it.

22:40

it has been remarkable. I mean,

22:42

just compare, like, the last three months to like, three

22:44

months ago to now when we were about to go into

22:46

this, we're like, is it gonna

22:48

work? maybe, you know, like,

22:50

we were so unsure because -- Yeah. --

22:52

people had so many mixed feelings about Game

22:54

of Thrones when it ended. But it

22:56

I think it's you gotta

23:00

there's no other way to read this season of House

23:02

of Dragon as a success of

23:04

of, you know, TV making, like

23:06

-- Yeah. it was buzzed about. It had

23:08

amazing ratings. It had amazing

23:10

moments. Like -- Yeah. -- if they

23:12

pulled off something very, very challenging and

23:14

they they need to be praised for that.

23:16

So Yeah. Absolutely. I

23:19

when

23:19

I think back to being at the premiere,

23:21

and how

23:23

sort of,

23:25

like, how it was,

23:26

like, it was still a great

23:28

grand event put on by HBO, but it was

23:30

so much more, like, intimate

23:32

and felt kind of more chill compared to,

23:34

like, the game with Thrones seasons. And I was really sitting

23:36

there being, like, maybe

23:38

Thrones has just, like, shrunk a

23:40

little bit. And like is just the byproduct of

23:43

the the primary

23:44

series ending, the pandemic

23:46

happening, It's so

23:48

hard to capture everybody's attention now at

23:50

the same time. I can't tell you how many

23:52

freaking what will the next Game

23:55

of Thrones like, articles, questions, PR

23:57

pitches have been set my way in the last three years,

23:59

and it's like, oh, turns

23:59

out it's the the

24:01

other

24:02

Game of Thrones show. is

24:04

gonna be the next game of Thrones. Mhmm.

24:06

Like, the fact that they were able to

24:08

recapture that Sunday audience. Yep.

24:12

and, like, you know, water cooler

24:13

conversation

24:16

is is

24:16

a remarkable achievement from them because I

24:18

think that they did have a pretty steep hill

24:20

to climb. And I think that Ryan Conville

24:23

nailed it from

24:24

the writing perspective. I think that Miguel Sapochnik

24:26

did an incredible job from the director's

24:29

perspective for show runner

24:29

here. And, yeah, they really

24:31

just

24:32

they put out a

24:33

great season of television, which was the

24:35

best case scenario. And not everybody

24:37

was sure if that was possible.

24:39

I think a

24:40

lot of people were kinda sitting in this limbo.

24:43

So I think it's impressive that they were

24:45

able and I and I understand that

24:47

surprise too, that they were

24:49

able to

24:50

like, recapture -- Yeah.

24:52

-- that energy again. Yeah.

24:56

awesome work.

24:56

It was normal shirt. It was normal

24:59

shirt, but awesome work, everyone. Yeah.

25:01

So

25:02

though

25:04

He

25:05

also talks about Damon. There's been a lot of talk about Damon in

25:07

the last week. Right? Yeah. We should get that.

25:09

The question was asked, much of a

25:11

fan that wants to see Damon

25:13

wearing a white hat or a black hat to

25:15

the point that many of them criticized Sarah

25:17

Hess, an executive producer for the show for

25:19

her less than glowing assessment of Damon. Did

25:21

you see this coming? Okay. So

25:24

what the question the interview

25:26

question sorry. The interview is referring to there

25:28

is a

25:30

piece on the Hollywood reporter

25:33

where Sarah Hess is

25:34

baffled that

25:36

that Damon

25:38

has become the Internet and Internet

25:40

boyfriend. she she said in the holy

25:43

reporter, Damon has become an Internet

25:45

boyfriend in a way that baffles me.

25:47

Not that Matt Smith isn't incredibly charismatic and wonderful.

25:50

charismatic and wonderful. And he's incredible

25:52

in the role. But Damon himself

25:54

is, I don't want him to be my

25:56

boyfriend. I'm a little baffled how they're all

25:58

like, oh, daddy. And I'm just like,

25:59

really, how in what

26:02

way was he a good partner, father, or

26:04

brother to anybody? You got me. He ain't

26:06

Paul Rudd. End

26:08

quote. Okay. So then

26:10

Ryan Condell responds, quote,

26:12

I'm

26:12

having trouble understanding it. We

26:15

established right out of the gate in the pilot that Damon

26:17

is a fascinating guy, but he's not Ned

26:19

Stark, so I didn't see it coming. To Damon

26:21

is the anti hero of this story. He's a

26:23

character with a real darkness to him, who's dangerous

26:25

and charming and equal parts. I knew people

26:27

would be fascinated by him and latch onto

26:30

him. I figured they'd do it in the same way they did with Jamie Lannister or

26:32

Braun or the Red Viper. I did not think they

26:34

would oddly apply this sort of superfan

26:37

into him and try to justify every single thing he's done as being

26:39

intrinsically heroic. It simply

26:41

isn't. It's not the case, nor will it be

26:43

in the future. End

26:45

quote. So,

26:48

yeah,

26:48

I am curious, like, those quotes have

26:50

come out in last week, and I'm curious, like, what your

26:52

reaction was to those? I have thoughts, obviously.

26:55

I blame

26:56

Matt Smith for being too hot.

26:59

Uh-huh. It

27:02

does sound like his fault. at

27:04

some point at some point partway through

27:06

the season I was texting with a friend, and

27:08

I was like making Damon

27:11

sexy was like the only

27:13

way to pull off this character

27:15

without having people, like, hate him

27:18

entirely. And

27:18

I think I stand by that.

27:20

I

27:20

mean, I remember writing in my notes

27:23

too

27:23

at the start of the episode where

27:25

he kills his first wife being

27:28

like, oh, There we go.

27:30

I got a rein in my affection

27:32

for Damon at this point. Like,

27:34

I can forgive him.

27:36

shop and limbs off of

27:39

supposed criminals or, like,

27:41

being a generally insensitive dude,

27:43

but, like, wife murdering is a bit harder to

27:45

come back from my in

27:46

my mind. And so it

27:48

was interesting that, like, as the

27:50

finale unfolded, I'm, like, yeah, I

27:53

guess, like, seeing him with Raynira

27:55

was I

27:55

found parts

27:56

of that romantic or,

27:59

like, at least

27:59

engaging in terms of it's

28:01

something

28:02

that Rayonier really wanted, and he did

28:04

seem like he was being a pretty solid partner

28:06

to her. And then, you know,

28:07

we talked a lot in our finale

28:10

episode recap about all the

28:11

ways that he started to fail her.

28:15

and

28:15

then him choking her.

28:16

Like, the way that some people

28:18

were like, oh my god. That's so out

28:20

of character for Damon or, like, why

28:22

would they ever write that seen it.

28:25

Mhmm. I was a little

28:27

bit surprised to see that reaction from some

28:29

people, but also I wanna say, like, I

28:31

didn't see a ton of people feeling

28:33

that. And so, like, even

28:35

like this backlash or

28:37

whatever against Sarah Hess being referenced in

28:40

this article, I do feel like it it

28:42

must be a pretty I feel like it's a

28:44

minority of the fandom. I think

28:46

it's like a subset of

28:48

people who are like David Targaryen stands

28:50

and or people who, like, just

28:52

really didn't want additional examples

28:55

of violence against women to be sprinkled

28:57

into the show, which valid

29:01

reacting

29:01

very strongly to it, but I I worry

29:03

that this is like one of those things where it's

29:05

like a small slice of the fandom who feels

29:07

this way and just being amplified because

29:10

people like

29:10

to talk about criticism and

29:12

backlash and fan

29:14

petitions and stuff. I I

29:16

mean What do you say? That's a fair point

29:18

about the the fan backlash, but I do think it

29:20

is a fact that people have really latched on to

29:22

Damon and love him. Right? Oh, for sure.

29:24

But I mean, I

29:25

I love him as a character.

29:28

I find him. I find Matt Smith's

29:30

performance incredibly compelling.

29:32

I'm constantly a little on edge whenever he's on

29:34

screen because he has been established as

29:36

such an unpredictable and

29:39

violent person. always

29:41

kinda wondering when that side of him might

29:43

come out. But I remember even way back in

29:45

the pilot episode, we talked about this

29:48

how I kinda clocked from the beginning that they were doing

29:50

something smart with his character, which is

29:52

having Damon be very

29:54

honest and truthful at

29:56

times when nobody else was, like, when he

29:58

was speaking to Vesaris and saying,

30:01

like, all of these men around

30:03

you just are, like, leaches

30:05

and you are a weak king,

30:07

he wasn't wrong. Like, I think that

30:09

he was I think that he was saying something very

30:11

true in that moment, and it reminds me of, like,

30:14

succession, right, where you have like these dirt bag

30:16

characters. But every once in a while,

30:18

they do the right thing or say the right

30:20

thing and you get kind of stoked in that moment

30:22

to see that character kind of ping ponging between, like,

30:25

righteousness

30:25

and

30:27

childishness You

30:29

know, Damon's kinda like a toddler who can be a man every once in

30:31

a while and we love when we see Man Damon

30:34

come out. But

30:34

when big baby Damon is

30:36

on display with his violence

30:38

in his tantrums, it's supposed to be concerning to

30:40

us. So that felt consistent to me

30:42

throughout the season. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, I I

30:44

have no, like, My

30:46

only concern is with the gaming character as he's shown

30:49

on screen are around the time jumps. I don't need to

30:51

reiterate that. Like, it's Timeless

30:53

timeless sexy Matt Smith. Well,

30:56

no. But more more just like we fast forward it

30:58

past so many parts of his character development that

31:00

I Sure. Like, my main complaint was, like, by the

31:02

end, I don't really know what we're

31:04

looking at in terms of who this character is. Sure. Because

31:07

twenty years have gone by in this season. So

31:09

-- Mhmm. -- are you the same person you were twenty

31:11

years ago, Kim? You know? don't

31:13

think so. Right? And so it's like, if you missed

31:15

twenty years of someone's life, you

31:17

know, like, you would you

31:18

would not if if I fast forward to

31:20

you twenty years from now, and ask you to tell me what

31:22

kind of person you are. Like, yes, you've

31:24

got glimpses of him throughout the years, but it's it's just

31:26

not enough in my opinion to form a strong

31:28

opinion. No. Especially since

31:29

all of the scene like, we didn't get very much

31:31

of him in private either.

31:34

Exactly.

31:34

Could've compared to all the other

31:36

characters. I just

31:37

said I wouldn't reiterate it, and I reiterate it.

31:39

So I'm sorry about that. But No. I don't mind you, dude, because it

31:41

is a it's a good point to keep in mind. Yeah. But

31:43

I I will say here's what here here's my

31:45

opinion on Matt Smith. he is the most in

31:47

my opinion, Damon

31:48

is the most effect or one of the most

31:51

effectual person

31:51

of people in the show. Mhmm.

31:53

Let me say that again. Damon is one of the most

31:55

effectual people in the show, which is to say,

31:58

you know, I remember watching the

32:00

first few episodes for my wife. And she's like,

32:03

This guy is

32:03

a complete badass. At least at least he knows what

32:05

he wants and he's doing what he needs to do

32:07

to get that. Like, he's one of the only people in

32:09

the show that's actually doing that.

32:12

that we see

32:13

explicitly doing that, you know.

32:16

And and I

32:18

think that makes him extremely attractive

32:20

in the show who,

32:22

like, you know, one of the other major characters was, like, Vocera's.

32:25

Right. And

32:28

he doesn't

32:28

know what the fuck that he like, he doesn't

32:30

know what the fuck he's doing in most of the most of

32:32

the show. And and

32:34

I'm not trying to say

32:36

the woman, like, Allent

32:39

and Reneera were ineffectual, but I do

32:41

think they were

32:42

really really

32:43

hindered by

32:45

their fathers and

32:48

the the patriarchal structures

32:50

around them. You know? So so I'm not

32:52

saying, like, they don't have good independence

32:54

or self determination or see. But, like, they

32:56

are operating in a system that is

32:58

trying to stop them from doing what they want

33:00

at every turn. Yeah. And so to see

33:02

a character who he basically has

33:05

cast off the constraints of that system and

33:07

just does whatever the f u wants --

33:09

Yep. -- is

33:11

inherently attractive in this specific show.

33:13

In Game of Thrones, we had, like, multiple characters that

33:16

kinda did that. Right? Like, they were kinda, like,

33:18

I'm doing

33:18

my own thing. John Snow, I'm I'm

33:21

creating my own destiny here, you know, or did you just

33:23

target? You know, like, multiple characters are

33:25

kinda doing their own thing. And here,

33:27

really, it's only Damon as far as I

33:29

can tell. or he is one of the only ones. So

33:31

I'm

33:31

again, I'm not saying, like,

33:33

Veneer and Allison did make really

33:35

great decisions that were useful for them

33:38

just in terms of, like, Damon being, like, I

33:40

wanna do the thing. I did the thing.

33:42

I don't give an f what anyone else

33:44

thinks. No one else did that more than

33:46

Damon. This Yeah. And Damon Damon seems

33:47

to have truly unlimited agency

33:49

-- Mhmm. -- in a

33:51

way that Vocera's didn't because he felt

33:53

so beholden to the realm and to

33:56

people pleasing all around him, but like Damon's

33:58

like the free agent who truly

34:00

just gets done whatever he wants

34:01

to get done, and it's satisfying to

34:04

watch that in a character for sure.

34:06

The last

34:08

thing I'll say about the

34:12

the people

34:13

who seemed upset by

34:15

Damon's characterization, particularly in the finale,

34:17

is that, like,

34:19

those quote unquote changes,

34:21

but I I it's like you can't even call it a from the book because

34:23

the book upon which House of the Dragon

34:25

is based is already

34:28

this little biased fake

34:30

history text that's very sparse

34:32

in detail for different sections. To

34:34

me that to me, adding in

34:36

things like, oh, Damon's also a

34:39

domestic abuser in his

34:42

relationship. Like, to me,

34:43

that's not on the

34:45

level of, like, changes

34:46

that they made to Jamie's character or, like, you know,

34:48

one of the classic examples

34:50

was, like, the whole disastrous season four

34:52

a bit where, like, Jamie rapes

34:55

Cercie next to Joffrey's corpse. And, like, in the

34:57

book, that's a much more consensual encounter.

34:59

And in the show, it wasn't,

35:01

and that really upset people because,

35:03

like, It was like, oh, yeah. Let's add one

35:05

more assault into the show that wasn't

35:07

present in the books. Yes. I

35:09

just think it's kind of apples and oranges with

35:11

fire and blood. because it's like, we don't know a ton

35:13

about how Damon behaved on a day to day basis based

35:16

on that book. And in the same

35:18

way that the show is

35:20

getting to recontextualize

35:22

things with Allison and Reinera in a way

35:24

that I think is really amazing

35:26

and successful. They get to do

35:28

that with Damon as well, and it's I'm

35:30

I'm okay with the fact that they're painting Damon as a much

35:32

more gray space character than

35:35

maybe people would prefer.

35:36

would prefer So

35:38

that's just my two cents on the -- Mhmm. --

35:40

on the adaptation choices

35:41

that they've made with Damon so far

35:43

in this

35:44

first

35:46

season. Yeah. Yeah. There

35:47

was

35:48

a hilarious

35:49

bit where Ryan Connell kind of struck back at

35:51

some of the people

35:54

who said, there's there's people who have, like, been saying to Ryan Caldwell, don't

35:56

really get who Damon is, you know.

35:58

And Ryan Caldwell, basic response. Yeah.

36:00

Okay. Okay. You

36:02

tell me who did you tell

36:04

me and George r Martin more about who Damon is.

36:06

Okay? Yeah. You tell me a person who, like,

36:08

has read this book, like, I spent spent

36:10

all of his waking hours thinking about this

36:12

book and this show. who Damon is. Okay.

36:14

Thank you. Thank you. You know, like -- Yeah. -- kind of

36:16

did respond in a separate interview about that

36:18

that I I enjoyed. Yeah. But here's

36:20

the biggest piece of news I dropped in this Ryan

36:22

Conville interview.

36:23

Arguably, this is a spoiler, but

36:25

I don't think so.

36:30

Question s. To tell this story, you relied on time jumps in

36:32

recasting certain roles. Allison and

36:34

Rainier are most notably. How do you feel

36:36

that went? And will we see more moves in the

36:38

future like

36:40

this? seems like a big risk to take,

36:42

to which Ryan called

36:43

the response. Yeah. And this is a credit to

36:45

my partners at HBO being brave enough to say, that's

36:47

the way we're gonna tell

36:50

this story. really is no way to tell the story of a generational conflict without

36:52

spending time with each generation and

36:54

understanding what happened to make things go bad. But

36:56

it was

36:58

very risky. as complex as the original Game of Thrones was, they did not do

37:00

anything like this, so it's a bold choice. But we

37:02

were standing on the shoulders of a giant that had done a lot

37:04

of legwork

37:06

before us which allowed us to make that bold choice knowing we had an audience that was gonna

37:08

lean forward and do the hard work of paying

37:10

attention to the show. They were just signing up

37:12

for empty calories

37:14

popcorn entertainment. I'm

37:15

really glad and proud of and grateful for the

37:17

audience who buckled up and came along for the

37:19

ride. The reward

37:20

for everybody is that the

37:22

story from here forward happens in

37:24

real time

37:25

End

37:28

quote. No more

37:30

time jumps. We

37:32

also had news that Casey Bloys get,

37:34

you know, estimated, confirmed what we

37:36

had discussed. Casey Bloys from HBO

37:40

Executive at HBO confirmed that it's very

37:42

likely that the next season of House of Dragon is

37:44

gonna be twenty twenty four. Yeah.

37:47

not impossible that it'll be twenty twenty three, but, like, I I don't

37:50

think it's gonna happen. Right? So Yeah.

37:53

I mean, the

37:54

big question for me, Kim Renfro, is, like,

37:56

are they gonna handle the kids? Like, the kids are gonna are they just

37:59

gonna keep the same kid? because they will

38:01

look dramatically different next season already than

38:03

how they look this season.

38:04

You know what I'm saying?

38:06

I don't know how he'll be out later. Jason, I feel

38:09

like he's gonna look older -- Yeah. -- than

38:11

than he did this season. So

38:14

I don't know if they're gonna do another casting change around that or maybe they're just gonna they're

38:16

gonna be, like, we're sticking with these kids. The last ones you

38:18

saw. And if they look older, if they look two years

38:20

older than where people deal with it then,

38:24

you know, I don't know how

38:25

they're gonna do it. But

38:26

Yeah. I mean, the littlest

38:28

kids, they could easily just

38:31

recast. Like, you

38:33

know, like, Sahara and Sahara, we only

38:35

saw, like, a glimpse of those

38:37

little blonde twins.

38:38

And now that Luke is said, Chase

38:40

is probably the youngest. I don't know how old the

38:42

actors are, who played Chase mainland Reina. I

38:44

should look that up. But maybe if they're

38:46

like seventeen

38:47

or eighteen, maybe they wouldn't look

38:49

too drastically different if they're filming in the next,

38:52

like, six to twelve

38:53

months. Right. That's

38:55

true. That's true. But but in any

38:57

the news saying no more time jumps. No more time

39:00

jumps. Yeah. I

39:01

don't know if it

39:02

I

39:04

know about how many years are left in this

39:06

dance of Dragons! period, but I

39:08

don't know if it's spoiler free to say that

39:10

or not. But it makes sense to

39:11

me that we would stop

39:13

the time jumps

39:13

down. Yeah.

39:16

So

39:16

Sweet. Any any other thought I

39:18

have, you know, related topic on that, but any

39:21

other thoughts on this Ryan Condell interview. I thought it's a good

39:23

interview. I mean, Ryan Condell, I have to say it

39:25

comes across as, like, a pretty

39:27

level headed person, like, very

39:29

gracious level headed creator, in

39:31

my opinion, you know? Yeah. I

39:33

would agree. Something that I've appreciate about

39:35

him and Miguel Sapochnik throughout the

39:38

interview process. Both when I talk

39:40

to them and

39:40

when I've seen write ups of their previous interviews is

39:42

that they seem very ready to

39:44

have

39:44

direct conversations about hard

39:48

topics. about things like assault, about

39:50

things like showing graphic birth, about

39:52

things like what

39:53

it actually means to have a story

39:55

told from a female perspective

39:58

and have women be sort

39:59

of the the thematic

40:01

center center of a

40:04

story in a way that you don't always

40:06

get from other show

40:07

runners. I've just I've read and talked to a lot of show runners over

40:09

the years and a lot

40:10

of them, you know, the

40:12

it's not given

40:14

that they'll gonna engage in the way that Ryan Condell has in the

40:16

season. Right. Or, like, the fallback

40:18

of, like, well, we just love having strong

40:20

female characters. Like,

40:21

I never wanna hear

40:23

that phrase. of person's because it's like, what does

40:25

that mean? But they seem they seem

40:27

very they seem able to be

40:29

very direct about

40:32

the tough themes that they're tackling and especially, like, even, like,

40:34

with, like, the the changing of

40:37

the Florians to be a

40:39

black family and, like, right

40:41

out the gate even preseason. I remember there was that quote, I think

40:43

it was with the Hollywood reporter where he was like,

40:46

oh, yeah. Well, we didn't want there to just be a bunch of

40:48

white people on the

40:48

street again. And I was like, I

40:50

don't

40:50

think I've ever heard a show writer just say that. Like, oh,

40:52

yeah. There was like, we not

40:54

not like, well, diversity has been so important

40:56

and, like, we wanna it's, like, no.

40:59

Just straight up, like, we didn't want another show

41:02

that's just all white

41:04

people. Things like that where I've just

41:05

I've appreciated

41:06

their

41:08

candor, and their willingness to kind of have those conversations

41:10

be wrong as

41:12

people are

41:12

want to be wrong

41:13

every once in a while, perhaps.

41:15

And then, like, and then talk

41:17

about it. I think it's been

41:20

nice. Howard Bauchner:

41:20

And they're putting their money where their mouth is,

41:22

so to speak. And what I mean by that is,

41:24

I I think what is it the case that House

41:27

of Dragon has had it's

41:29

certainly an extremely significant

41:31

number of female directors and

41:33

writers for the season.

41:35

Right? Yes. And believe even

41:36

at least one cinematographer who

41:38

was a woman. Right. Which is

41:41

like, basically, in terms

41:43

of, like, average number of episodes that feature women in

41:45

those positions -- Oh. -- after Dragon probably beats

41:47

any other season of Game of Thrones. Right? Is

41:49

that I believe

41:51

the math was done back when season

41:53

eight, the directors for season eight were announced that it was gonna

41:55

be all men again and it was like

41:57

something like five percent of

42:00

episodes of Game of Thrones total were directed by women. And

42:02

that's across eight seasons. But here in one

42:04

season, I think that we're up to like

42:06

forty percent Right. Of

42:08

the episodes already directed

42:10

by women, not to

42:11

mention having the

42:13

first ever co

42:14

oh I wanna call it

42:16

a by line. It's not a by line. But having an episode

42:18

that is both directed by a woman and

42:20

written by a woman

42:21

that never happened in Game of

42:23

Thrones eight season run. I

42:26

I,

42:26

you know, I don't see much, like, self

42:28

back padding about that on their parts,

42:30

you know. Yeah. And I think that's that's

42:32

a good approach to take for them. Right. because it should be

42:34

the norm. Right. It should be the norm. Agreed. Agreed. But

42:37

it is good that

42:41

you know, like, they it

42:43

feels to me like a very conscious decision on their

42:45

part to put women in those positions. I think

42:48

the show has obviously benefited

42:50

from it. And and

42:52

so, hopefully, we see more of that in season two.

42:54

And to then back up, like, the

42:55

way that Ryan Caldwell backs

42:57

up Sarah Hess. as, like, his

42:59

-- Yes. -- like he says in this interview, I

43:01

think that him and

43:02

Sarah together probably wrote about eighty

43:04

five percent of

43:05

the season. And so he's

43:07

not being, like, I

43:08

don't know, again, not shying away from the fact that, like, she's receiving this feedback,

43:10

but instead going straight to the heart of it and

43:12

being, like, I back up every single thing that

43:15

she said, I don't think that she's misconstruing anything. We

43:18

wrote the season together, and we think that

43:20

we we did a great job. And I would I would

43:22

agree with them. agree completely.

43:23

I mean and honestly, this goes

43:26

to the point I was making, like, fifteen

43:28

minutes ago about, like, people are like, oh,

43:29

yeah. Sarah has she doesn't understand the character.

43:32

It's like, why are you trying to, like,

43:34

put Sarah Hess in a lower position than Ryanco? They're clearly, like, partners. You know,

43:36

they're clearly, like, working together and

43:38

collaborating on this thing, you know, like,

43:41

there's been a lot basically, there's been a lot of

43:43

anger and hatred against Sarah Hess over the course

43:45

last couple

43:46

weeks. Completely

43:47

undeserved and nonsensical,

43:49

honestly. Just like nonsense. Yeah.

43:52

And it just it it bothers me that

43:54

fandom has, like, become, like, again,

43:56

us versus them, we need to pay people against

43:58

each other.

43:59

me winning. Well, only by you losing

44:02

can I win. Basically, it's kind of how I see a

44:04

lot of this attitude going.

44:06

Anyway,

44:06

alright. Jayce

44:08

from Boulder

44:09

Colorado writes into caskings at

44:11

gmail dot com. And he wrote a few

44:13

things. First of all, he it

44:15

to celebrate Emma Darcy who identifies as non

44:17

binary and uses they then pronouns.

44:19

They're absolutely incredible, and hopefully, this will lead

44:21

to more non

44:24

binary representation. They also Jason also wanted to give a shout out to the

44:26

TikTok videos. Love videos of

44:28

giving Kim Renfeng are giving amazing

44:30

explanations with the piano playing in the background and clips for the show

44:32

playing. It's

44:34

really lovely to watch. Side note from Dave Chen. Hey.

44:36

Go to tikTok dot com

44:38

slash at a cast of kings if you wanna find

44:40

more of those

44:42

videos. Mhmm. And

44:45

question for

44:45

Kim Renfro. We'll season two cover

44:47

everything that is left to fire and blood. And

44:49

if so, does that mean the show will be done after two

44:52

seasons. Now,

44:54

we've already discussed that George R.

44:55

Martin says that has said that it

44:57

will probably take around four seasons to complete the

44:59

fire and blood

45:02

story. Kim Nevro, roughly how far into the

45:04

foreign blood book are we at this point in time?

45:06

Do you know do you know, like About

45:08

halfway. About halfway. Wow. So

45:12

So it's

45:13

the next started, like, it's

45:14

like, we've done, like, the eye should've

45:16

do visuals on a podcast. I was

45:18

trying

45:18

to hold up my hands. Yeah.

45:22

How much But it's, like, we've covered, like,

45:24

a hundred

45:25

pages maybe -- Uh-huh. -- maybe

45:27

not even that. Maybe,

45:28

like, seventy

45:29

five pages of fire and

45:32

blood. And I don't know exactly

45:33

what the page down is, but I think it's somewhere

45:35

around

45:35

three hundred or four hundred.

45:37

So yeah, we're just about

45:39

at the halfway point of fired blood.

45:41

And this is probably a good time. Other people have,

45:43

like, d m to me, I think, or

45:45

tweeted at me, asking if they wanted to read fire in

45:47

blood now. Now let's see when one is done,

45:50

like, what pages they should do. I can

45:52

try and get a little bit

45:54

more granular that, but I will say

45:56

it's hard to it's hard to tell someone which sections

45:58

to read that won't include any

45:59

spoilers from any future

46:02

references because

46:04

of the nature of the book. They kind of

46:06

hop around a lot. And there are things that happen in

46:09

the finale where, like,

46:11

were like they

46:12

just decided to leave like, it's all

46:15

mixed up in those pages. What happens

46:17

between Luke and Eamon, but

46:20

what's going on with Chase and his, like, Dragon Messenger

46:22

thing is all sort of mixed up in

46:24

that section and they've saved that for season

46:28

two. So I

46:28

would say if you're if you're truly trying to not be

46:30

spoiled, I would hold off on reading fire

46:32

and blood probably until the seasons over, and

46:34

then you could probably safely read like

46:37

the first half. But to Jason's

46:40

question, season two is not

46:42

going

46:42

to cover everything left of fired

46:46

blood. we still

46:46

have about yeah. Got it. Well, I was gonna I

46:49

was gonna ask

46:49

for people who don't mind being slightly spoiled,

46:51

do you have a sense of what

46:53

people should read Yeah.

46:56

Yeah. I

46:58

mean, I don't I'm sorry. I

47:00

didn't prep the page numbers in front of me.

47:02

I can tweet about

47:03

it. comment on our

47:06

decoding. Our decoding Yeah. So so

47:08

how about the send out a tweet about it after we

47:10

record this? And I'll be You can

47:12

reiterate it. Okay? I'll link to the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. But

47:14

it would be roughly the first half. If

47:15

you wanna start with

47:18

Aegon's conquest, and the

47:20

precursor all the way up to where we are.

47:22

You're you're gonna be reading about half the book.

47:24

Also, I will say,

47:26

love

47:27

George r Barton, it's

47:29

it's kind of a dense,

47:31

like, dense and slightly

47:32

snoozy read

47:36

at

47:36

points. because

47:37

you're really just getting a ton of names without a lot

47:39

of characterization attached to them, a lot

47:41

of just, like,

47:44

reference it's it's not as it's not as engaging

47:47

as a song, rice, and fire was to

47:49

me because that's like a

47:52

full novel experience, you're getting all these character

47:54

perspectives. So if you attempt to

47:56

go read fire in blood and

47:58

you're like, Yish. I don't think I

47:59

can make it through four hundred pages of

48:02

that. That's fine. That's

48:03

why I'm here. I will continue to

48:05

do that for you. So

48:07

that Yeah. So

48:09

Right. George said that he thinks

48:11

four seasons of ten

48:12

episodes would do it. I did see I

48:14

think it might have been in that EW interview

48:18

or maybe this New York Times one where where Ryan Conder was, like,

48:20

oh, I actually haven't talked that granularly

48:22

with him yet about, like, exactly how

48:24

many seasons

48:24

we're gonna try and But

48:28

given that they are not

48:29

doing any more time jumps and that they're doing this

48:31

in real time, I would expect season two

48:33

to cover, like,

48:36

I don't know.

48:37

Probably not

48:38

a ton. Probably

48:40

not a ton

48:41

in terms of page

48:43

length. Let's put it that way. I think

48:45

that they're gonna really slow down now and give you

48:47

more of like the day to day

48:49

events of what's going on in the civil

48:51

war as it escalates.

48:53

Gotcha.

48:55

okay Okay. Well, Kim

48:56

Renfro, you wrote an article at

48:59

insider dot com about Questions

49:01

that you hope are resolved in

49:03

season two, or open questions that

49:05

the season left dangling. Mhmm. And I

49:07

don't know that we need to run

49:09

down every single one of these, but I guess what will be the major ones

49:11

for you in your opinion? What are one of the biggest

49:14

things we're like, wow,

49:16

we never never got back to

49:18

that

49:18

topic. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

49:20

First and foremost,

49:20

I really wanna see where

49:23

Lord Commander Westerling got

49:25

to. We haven't seen him since, like, the start of

49:27

episode nine when he And he, like,

49:29

stormed out of the

49:30

of the storm council. Right? He was just, like, I

49:33

I'm not here. like,

49:35

I have no business here until there's an a

49:37

new king or queen and left after being asked

49:39

to go, assassinate Reneera and

49:41

her children, basically. So

49:44

he because he was once Rayonier's sworn

49:46

protector, we saw him in the

49:48

pilot. We've talked about this, like, I

49:51

think that could be a really significant ally

49:54

to her, but the show has sort of left it

49:56

open ended as to where he might wind

49:58

up. I don't know if we're gonna get like a embarrassed and

49:59

sell me. situation,

50:01

you know, in Game of Thrones, how he,

50:04

like, left the King's guard when Joffrey was

50:06

crowned and then popped up a few seasons

50:08

later to

50:10

help Daenerys. So I'm very

50:11

curious to see where they go with that. I

50:14

also as I

50:14

was rewatching my episodes, and I saw one

50:17

person tweet about this. I'm so sorry. I can't

50:19

remember who it was. But, like,

50:21

they might have swapped the

50:23

Lannister twins, and I don't know

50:25

if that was like either

50:27

they're hinting at that because it's

50:29

it's going

50:29

to be some sort

50:30

of, like, plot line in season two maybe, but,

50:32

like Well, when

50:33

you say this one, so does

50:35

Thailand and Jason Yes. Right. And Thailand is in the small council,

50:37

and they're played by the same actor. Right? Playing by

50:40

the

50:41

same actor.

50:42

And Jason Lannister is the

50:45

one who's, like, a little bit more of a

50:47

buffoon. Like, we met him in the stack. Like, we

50:49

met both of them in that stag hunt

50:51

episode. Yes. But Jason was the one, like, trying to have a serious

50:53

conversation with vicarious about the stepping stones. And

50:55

then Jason was, like, drinking

50:58

wine and running his mouth

51:00

to Rayner

51:00

Thailand. Thailand was the first one. You're the first one. Oh, sorry.

51:03

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

51:03

Thailand is supposed to be, like,

51:06

the serious I'm involved

51:06

in politics. I need to talk to

51:08

the king guy. Jason Lannister is like

51:10

the one who just sort of

51:12

ran his mouth about wanting rainier

51:15

to

51:15

be his lady wife and he

51:17

gave viserus the spear and was all very,

51:19

like, ceremonial. And then

51:21

I was watching like, I was

51:23

re watching the later episodes and the the Lannister who's on the

51:25

small council in episode nine who,

51:28

like, again, is

51:30

sort of like, oh, now we can enact our long

51:32

laid plans. Was giving me way more JSON vibes

51:36

than Thailand?

51:36

Okay. And I was

51:38

like and

51:39

then I saw someone else tweet about this, but

51:41

it almost seems like they've like

51:43

made it so that Jason

51:45

is secretly on the small council instead of

51:48

Thailand's Lannister? I

51:50

think that's

51:50

a bit of a stretch, you know,

51:52

in my opinion, but It might be. It was just so

51:55

weird. It was just Yes. You you are

51:57

correct that when I saw Thailand

51:59

speak, I'm like, Yes.

52:01

That sounds

52:01

lot like Jason. But I just think my

52:04

conclusion honestly came is that they're both assholes. Like

52:06

-- Sure. -- we just both assholes. They're both

52:08

of that that type

52:10

of guy. That type of dinosaur. Yeah.

52:12

They're and they're twins. You know, it's not like it's

52:14

not unreasonable that they

52:14

both have they both have, like,

52:16

some similar personality characteristics or ways of talking. So You're

52:19

right. Yeah. Who else?

52:21

But that was the thought

52:23

that

52:23

I had

52:24

Also, I just don't I

52:27

don't believe this theory at all

52:29

because also, like, if if if there

52:31

was some nefarious thing going

52:34

on to to switch them,

52:36

wouldn't Jason wanna act more like Thailand

52:38

anyway? Okay. Sure. He's a

52:40

big dummy. wanna

52:41

not make it obvious

52:44

that he's Thailand. But again, ten years have

52:46

passed since the last time we saw, you know That

52:48

is also true. Jason, Thailand. So

52:50

maybe he's become more of a dick during

52:52

that time. That is also true.

52:54

Alright. What other so, yeah, I

52:56

agree. Where did

52:57

Harold Westerling go? I'm very curious,

52:59

like, what where he's gonna end

53:01

up? other major mysteries? You

53:04

know, I I will say, I am bummed we didn't get

53:06

a check back in the Allison last episode.

53:08

Right? Like -- Mhmm. -- what's going on with

53:10

Allison? And

53:11

what's going you know, what happened there.

53:14

And my

53:16

understanding is, like, Missaria this past season

53:18

had, like, a much smaller role than

53:20

in the books. Is that accurate? Yeah.

53:22

I really would expect they sort of

53:24

left that whole burning of her house

53:27

thing

53:27

just there. And

53:29

I -- Yeah. -- do not believe for a second that she's actually dead. So I'm

53:31

Really? I think the the sure. Sure. You don't see her die, but

53:33

I the strong implication is that

53:35

she's dead. But I I

53:38

would agree that it is not a certain thing.

53:40

So Yeah. I I kind of sub

53:42

I generally subscribe to the no

53:44

body -- Yes. -- no crime.

53:46

rule of television. So, like -- Yeah. -- and the fact that they,

53:48

like, made it impossible

53:50

to see

53:50

who it was walking away

53:53

from her house, like, Maybe

53:55

it's just supposed to be some anonymous,

53:58

Larryis. Right. Right. I can't That was

53:59

my interpretation. It was it was like Larry's

54:02

person walking away, but it could have been missus Harris herself

54:04

or someone else. Right?

54:06

Yeah. So I I'm waiting for that thread

54:08

to pick back up again for sure. And then

54:11

I

54:12

was, again, on my rewatch, like, Alison has an older

54:14

brother, Gwain High Tower, who was a

54:16

knight, Damon, like, beat the crap out of him in the

54:18

tournament -- Mhmm. -- in the pilot episode. I'm

54:21

wondering they're going to bring more

54:23

like him as well as

54:25

Alison and Vocera's

54:27

fourth child, Darren,

54:29

maybe they will both

54:30

reenter the story together having

54:32

both been at Old Town this whole time.

54:35

Also, if we see. I I

54:37

kinda wanna see Old Town. I don't know if you

54:39

remember from Game of Thrones days, but Old Town

54:42

was, like, one of their cooler locations that we got

54:44

introduced to in the later seasons with, like, the

54:46

big tower, that huge library

54:48

that Sam goes into. Old town is a

54:50

is a neat location. So I wonder if we're going

54:52

to actually visit there and

54:55

get a checkup on Alison's older brother

54:57

who is presumably important to the

54:59

high tower cause as

55:02

well

55:02

as her youngest son,

55:04

Darren? There were a

55:06

bunch

55:07

of questions actually

55:09

we got about Reina as well,

55:12

which is also listed in your article. Right? Yeah. So

55:14

Reina

55:17

is Damon and

55:20

Lana's

55:22

daughter. Right?

55:23

Failed it.

55:23

Yep. So

55:25

oh

55:28

And

55:28

in episode six, she has not claimed a dragon yet. Is

55:30

she the one that was supposed to get the one

55:32

that Eamon ended up claiming? Or

55:35

Yeah.

55:35

I mean, supposed to

55:38

I've

55:38

I've had people critique me

55:41

for saying so on Twitter. There's

55:43

no, like, rule that the child of

55:45

a dragon writer is supposed to inherit that dragon. But, yes, in

55:47

the episode where Eamon claimed

55:49

Vanguard, Reno was the one who kinda, like, ran out

55:51

and was like, hey, that

55:54

was supposed be, like, that was my mother's dragon. That

55:55

was nice to be my dragon, but she had clearly not attempted

55:57

to claim her yet. So, yeah,

55:59

Reina still

55:59

doesn't have

56:02

a dragon. I I

56:02

think there was a lot of questions as to why, like I don't know.

56:04

I don't remember how many years have passed this

56:06

episode six, but, like, some. Right?

56:10

It's three. Yeah.

56:11

I wanna say, like, why in all

56:13

the time, since episode six to

56:15

episode ten, why has that Reina claimed a

56:17

dragon yet? because there's dragons you

56:19

know, there's unclaimed dragons flying around, you know, like,

56:21

what's why why we have no dragon

56:23

yet? Basically, is a question I've seen. Right? Yeah.

56:25

I

56:25

mean, she's been carrying she was,

56:27

like, carrying an egg with her for a long time,

56:30

hoping that her egg would, like, that an

56:32

egg that she had in her crib and

56:34

everything would hatch. And we

56:36

see Lena before

56:37

she died, have this conversation with

56:39

Reina saying, like, you know, not all of them

56:41

do. Like, it's sort of a it's sort of

56:43

a mystery as to why some of the eggs that are

56:45

placed with Targaryen babies in their cribs like do hatch

56:47

and become that person's bonded dragon.

56:50

Sometimes they

56:50

don't. So Reina so far has been

56:54

in no egg hatching camp.

56:56

And I think that

56:56

maybe she was, like, waiting a while for

56:59

the egg theory to work

57:00

because that's certainly a less risky

57:03

way to get a dragon than trying to just

57:05

claim one. It's not always a guaranteed

57:07

success that you're going to face down

57:09

a giant dragon

57:10

and die instead

57:12

of getting

57:13

a claim from one. So I

57:15

don't know if

57:16

they're I'm also waiting to see

57:18

if Reina gets her dragon. It also

57:20

makes I was also, like, just in general, I really hope that

57:22

they give both Reina and

57:24

Bayless some more lines in season

57:26

two. They were mostly, like, pretty

57:29

quiet characters who were just sort of

57:32

there for most of the pilot

57:34

episode and didn't talk a ton, but I'm very

57:36

curious to see how they feel about this

57:38

impending war, how they

57:40

want to or don't want to support Rainier.

57:42

They both seem to be

57:44

very happy in

57:46

their place in

57:46

her court, but Reina especially because

57:48

now her fiance was just killed

57:51

on her own mom's

57:52

own mom

57:54

by

57:54

her own mom's former dragon

57:56

that

57:57

Eamon was writing.

57:58

Like, that's doubly

57:59

sad, I think, for her.

58:02

So now Reina's fiance

58:04

less and Dragon

58:05

less. Hopefully, she gets

58:07

a little come up

58:09

in season two. Hopefully,

58:12

it's smooth sailing for Rainer from this

58:14

point forward. Mhmm. We'll

58:16

see.

58:16

though So

58:18

Okay. Let's let me

58:20

just throw an email into the mix here. Great

58:22

intro. cast kings at g mail dot

58:26

com. Jordan from Charlotte,

58:26

North Carolina writes, and this is just a

58:29

part of the email. So firstly,

58:31

Jordan celebrates the fact of tons

58:33

there's so many women at the Council table in

58:36

Dragonstone. That's great.

58:39

There's still a lot of number by men,

58:41

but it's nice to see them there. And Reneer

58:43

may not be perfect, but at least she understands her role

58:45

as queen doesn't include slaughtering thousands just

58:47

so she can sit on the

58:49

iron throne. End quote. But

58:52

I really liked what Jordan wrote here where she says,

58:54

quote, why is every man on

58:56

this show so bad at grieving?

58:59

Don't answer that. I

59:00

know toxic masculinity ruins the party again and gender norms are stupid, but

59:03

it is incredibly telling that three of the

59:05

main male characters on the show win

59:07

face with intense loss. run

59:09

away from it

59:10

towards violence rather than face

59:12

their emotions

59:12

and remain at home to support the ones they

59:14

love. Damon,

59:15

Corless, and

59:18

Langnor, Although

59:18

he claimed he is going to stay with Reneer before the shenanigans of

59:20

the final few episodes, it should form a bad

59:23

husband's guild and immediately enroll in

59:25

some intense group therapy.

59:28

End quote. I

59:28

would add to the Sarah's

59:29

to that meeting. I was

59:30

gonna say, I was like, I was I was actually surprised

59:32

at the list of names there. Right. The

59:34

Sarah's is probably the one that I would

59:36

really add on there. Yeah. But, yes, I think what

59:39

the message of the show is trying to say

59:41

is if men were more in touch

59:43

with their feelings,

59:46

people would die. Right?

59:48

Yeah.

59:48

Ultimately, at the end of

59:49

the day, that's kind of what

59:51

the takeaway is.

59:54

But Anyway,

59:56

any other

59:57

thoughts on on that

59:59

topic

59:59

or or this season

1:00:01

of the show or, you know, as we

1:00:03

as we send folks off to to

1:00:05

next season. I do wanna mention, of course, that

1:00:07

cast of Kings is a decoding TV podcast

1:00:09

and we will be covering other shows throughout

1:00:11

the year, including very

1:00:12

likely with Kim Renfro over at podcast

1:00:15

dot decoding

1:00:15

TV dot com. So be sure to subscribe to

1:00:17

make sure you get more

1:00:19

of those. But Yeah. Kim,

1:00:21

any any other thoughts on on the

1:00:23

season as we wrap up for

1:00:25

an for another eighteen

1:00:28

months probably?

1:00:30

god.

1:00:30

Isn't that wild? But then I feel

1:00:32

like we're gonna be here in

1:00:34

twenty

1:00:34

twenty four being like, the

1:00:36

last year is flown by. hope it

1:00:38

goes by fast. Yeah. Good impression

1:00:40

of us, by the way. Thank you. But yeah.

1:00:42

I you know, and and we will be

1:00:46

recording bonus throughout the year when a piece of news drops, you know? So Yeah.

1:00:48

I'm excited

1:00:49

for casting news for

1:00:52

some characters,

1:00:54

like, Kregan

1:00:55

Stark. We know we're gonna

1:00:57

be meeting next season because that we know that

1:00:59

Chase is headed

1:01:02

to Winterfell. So,

1:01:03

yeah, I think it'll be fun kind of like watching

1:01:05

the the new casting announcements rollout,

1:01:08

hopefully, other spin off slash

1:01:10

prequel slash sequel slash

1:01:12

successor show. news to

1:01:14

come. Now that they've seen how this

1:01:16

will be a success, I kind of expect

1:01:18

HBO to to

1:01:19

possibly move one of those

1:01:21

in development into either, like, a pilot stage

1:01:23

or maybe a series

1:01:26

order. So, yeah, just sort of

1:01:28

stay tuned. George says he's

1:01:30

seventy five percent done the

1:01:32

Windsor winter. So who knows? Maybe we'll be

1:01:34

sitting here

1:01:34

in twenty twenty four with Windsor

1:01:38

content. to talk

1:01:39

about, but I've been deeply wrong

1:01:42

about that before, so don't hold me to that

1:01:44

timeline. George

1:01:44

doesn't have a timeline. He's just working

1:01:46

on it. He says people. So

1:01:49

let the

1:01:49

man write at his

1:01:52

pace, I suppose. That's all

1:01:53

we can do. There

1:01:55

has been some suggestions that we try

1:01:58

to cover some parts

1:02:00

of

1:02:00

the

1:02:01

book, Kim. I don't know

1:02:03

if III probably should've

1:02:05

saved air parts of the song and

1:02:08

writing Firebooks? No. No. No. No. No.

1:02:10

No. Like, firebirds is like, read fire

1:02:12

and blood

1:02:14

and, like, talk about the chapters in fire of blood for instance. I would that

1:02:16

with you, like, especially for

1:02:17

the the sections where they, like For the stuff

1:02:19

we've already done.

1:02:20

they made changes or

1:02:22

something. Have you read those and and respond

1:02:24

to that? That'd be fun. I was, crap.

1:02:26

I just

1:02:28

had something

1:02:28

else that I thought of, 0II

1:02:32

guess last wrap up thought I was gonna leave

1:02:34

people with. I know I keep mentioning that I

1:02:36

rewatched all

1:02:37

the episodes recently, but I really like,

1:02:39

if you really loved the show, and

1:02:42

our sad to see it go, I honestly can't

1:02:44

recommend a rewatch more

1:02:46

of the of this first season.

1:02:48

Now -- Mhmm. -- now that you we'll

1:02:50

know where the time jumps are gonna happen now that you know where they land the

1:02:52

finale. I was really impressed. Like, I

1:02:54

liked the pilot episode when I first

1:02:58

watched it. rewatching it, I was like, damn, there

1:03:00

is, like, almost not a

1:03:01

single piece of dialogue

1:03:03

that goes

1:03:05

on

1:03:05

I don't what's

1:03:06

the word for it? Not

1:03:07

paid off. Like, it's it's paid off. Everything's paid

1:03:10

off. Everything's paid

1:03:10

off. I feel like they were very economic about

1:03:12

their decisions, but in a way, that was

1:03:15

not giving away the game early on. I just

1:03:17

I I really became more impressed

1:03:19

with the writing. as I

1:03:21

was rewatching and just seeing how they were

1:03:24

able to, like, lay these

1:03:26

foundations, lay these, like, little tidbits that

1:03:28

pay

1:03:30

off later. just

1:03:30

really I I love when a show only

1:03:32

feels enriched upon a rewatch.

1:03:34

And

1:03:34

so if if you're even thinking

1:03:37

about doing that, I fully endorse

1:03:39

Is is there any are

1:03:41

there any specific examples from, like, the

1:03:43

early episodes that you were, like,

1:03:45

oh, wow. That was

1:03:48

incredible. Like, I mean Or you're like, I can't believe they put that in.

1:03:50

They knew where they were going, you

1:03:52

know? I think, like,

1:03:53

the cordless stuff especially,

1:03:55

like, the way that Corus is operating at

1:03:58

the small council table

1:03:59

with ah

1:04:01

viseris and,

1:04:04

like, all of that just like, obviously,

1:04:06

he goes up

1:04:06

and down and back and forth between being loyal

1:04:08

to Rayoniera, but knowing that in the end, he

1:04:10

is going to swear to Rayoniera's cause.

1:04:14

You can see all of that political strategy

1:04:16

already being laid in the

1:04:18

small council meeting, the way that he

1:04:21

interacts with Raynira, Rainier and Damon's

1:04:23

entire relationship. It

1:04:26

feels very pointed with the way that they

1:04:27

were having them interact pretty

1:04:30

early on. Harold

1:04:32

Westerling. Like I said, like,

1:04:34

I remember in that first episode being, like,

1:04:36

oh, yeah. They have this, like, random King's

1:04:38

Guard. here, but then

1:04:39

it's like, oh, if you know that twenty years down the line, he's

1:04:41

gonna be ordered to go kill Raynira, seeing

1:04:43

the way

1:04:43

that he's interacting with her and, like,

1:04:46

protecting her,

1:04:48

in that pilot episode makes a lot of sense. Every single one of the

1:04:50

tournaments watching Damon and Kristen Cole

1:04:53

go at it, on,

1:04:55

like, the tournament field

1:04:56

knowing where both of their characters

1:04:58

are gonna wind up on on

1:05:00

Team Green and Team Black is honestly

1:05:04

kinda fun. One

1:05:06

of

1:05:06

the It looks like they it looks like they haven't aged

1:05:08

the day since then, you know. One

1:05:09

of the

1:05:12

the

1:05:12

Baratheon, who's participating in the tournament, when he

1:05:14

asks for Reeney's favor, he

1:05:16

calls her the queen that never

1:05:19

was. Right? At the

1:05:20

Auto High Tower, like, leans over to Vocera's and says, you could

1:05:23

have his tongue for that. And

1:05:25

I was, like,

1:05:26

damn. We went from,

1:05:28

like, Oh,

1:05:29

even the slightest mention of Rainey's being

1:05:32

considered once for Queen of the Iron Throne is,

1:05:34

like, rip out your tongue worthy

1:05:36

to, like,

1:05:38

vamend, screaming in the throne

1:05:40

room, saying, like, she's a

1:05:42

horror and her children are ambassadors and getting his

1:05:44

head cut off. It was, like, oh, yeah. That's

1:05:47

why like, it is that serious if somebody,

1:05:50

like,

1:05:50

even implies that, like,

1:05:52

the

1:05:53

current king should not be

1:05:55

legitimate or, like, should not be or, like, not be respected or

1:05:58

whatever. I'm sure I can think of

1:06:00

more, but

1:06:00

sure i could think of more by

1:06:02

Yeah. It just

1:06:03

it felt and it just felt great to to

1:06:05

sort of rewatch everything knowing where it goes without

1:06:07

that anticipation of, like, oh, is this gonna be a good or

1:06:09

a bad episode? But,

1:06:11

like, just got you

1:06:13

know? You never know? Yes. But re watching them. I honestly have a I was

1:06:16

Didn't you vote him?

1:06:18

What? I think nothing. I I got

1:06:22

how I just love every episode? Yeah. There is there is a there is

1:06:24

a comment. Somebody was like somebody was

1:06:26

like, you know, Kim stole her

1:06:30

her tagline for McDonald's. I'm loving it.

1:06:33

You know? Yeah.

1:06:36

I know. III and I

1:06:38

it sounds like I'm making fun of you, but it was it

1:06:40

was a delight it was a delight to experience your

1:06:42

joy of the show with you, you know. Okay. So

1:06:44

I wasn't it's not a criticism. No. I know. I did. I was ready

1:06:46

for it every weekend. I was like, well,

1:06:49

Dave, I loved it.

1:06:51

What can I

1:06:54

say? Also more or

1:06:56

more,

1:06:56

Zelda has joined us for the

1:06:59

-- Mhmm. Okay. Well,

1:07:00

now you're in the way. Anyways,

1:07:02

i know it alright.

1:07:04

Well, this was a delight.

1:07:05

I think that'll probably

1:07:08

do it. for us here today on the podcast. Hopefully, you've

1:07:10

enjoyed here, I guess.

1:07:12

Reflect on the season and talk

1:07:13

about some of the stuff come

1:07:15

out since then. And if major Game of

1:07:18

Thrones news or House of Thrones news drops, we

1:07:20

will probably be here. So keep subscribed

1:07:22

to cast

1:07:24

kings. And,

1:07:24

yeah, we'll we'll be back to talk about whatever is

1:07:26

coming next, but I just want

1:07:30

to again thank

1:07:32

our listeners the season for tuning

1:07:34

back in. It was not a

1:07:37

sure thing that people would

1:07:39

return given that, you know, a lot

1:07:41

of people when a host change happens, people don't necessarily tune back

1:07:43

in. We're grateful for everyone that's decided to stick

1:07:45

around. And obviously, of course, grateful

1:07:47

to you, Kim. for

1:07:50

joining me on this

1:07:52

on this journey. It

1:07:54

has really greatly enriched my

1:07:56

last few months, and I'm sure a

1:07:59

lot for the same way. Totally.

1:08:00

Right back

1:08:01

at you.

1:08:03

right Alright.

1:08:04

Until next time. Be well.

1:08:07

Be safe. We'll see you for

1:08:08

the next bit of Game of Thrones news

1:08:10

that hits. Goodbye.

1:08:12

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