0:03

This week on A Dog Called Diversity

0:05

. I have an incredible

0:07

woman . Her name is Bernadette Smith

0:09

and she's the CEO of the Equality

0:12

Institute . Welcome to the podcast

0:14

, bernadette .

0:15

Thank you , Lisa . It is my pleasure to be

0:17

here .

0:20

You know what I love about podcasting

0:23

, first , is I get selfishly , get

0:26

to pick the brains of incredible people from

0:28

around the world and

0:31

, secondly , talk to people all around the

0:33

world . So you are joining us from Chicago

0:36

, is that correct ?

0:38

Yes , chicago Illinois , usa

0:40

, woohoo , yes

0:42

, love it , we're here

0:45

. Yeah , so we're far away from each other , but

0:47

, yeah , I've really enjoyed every conversation

0:49

we've had and I'm excited to talk to you today .

0:54

Yeah , same . You end up feeling like you've got friends all over

0:56

the world , don't you ?

0:59

Exactly yeah , it is super cool

1:01

.

1:02

Yeah , tell me about

1:04

the work you do at the Equality

1:06

Institute .

1:09

So I'm a keynote speaker and a writer

1:11

, and Equality Institute is

1:13

my company and what we do

1:15

is we help organizations

1:17

embed equity and inclusion into their

1:20

functions . So we're essentially a small diversity

1:22

equity and inclusion consulting firm . I

1:25

have a consultant on the team

1:27

, I have a few facilitators on my bench

1:29

, and so we're sort of doing our

1:31

thing building this business

1:34

, to empower organizations

1:36

, to partner with them , to make

1:39

equity and inclusion the default

1:41

.

1:42

Yeah , I love that and

1:44

not dissimilar to the work that I do

1:47

, so it's always great to meet other

1:49

practitioners making a difference

1:51

in their part of the world . I

1:54

want to talk a bit more about some of the work you

1:56

do and some of your views on this work

1:59

, but you have such an

2:01

interesting career and have done

2:03

some really cool things , so I wondered if you would talk

2:05

a little bit about , maybe

2:07

, the journey to having your own DEI

2:09

consulting business . So what were some

2:11

of the things you did along the way before

2:14

then ?

2:15

Yeah Well , my first business I started

2:17

in 2004 when

2:20

I was living in Boston , massachusetts , and

2:22

Massachusetts was the first state in the US

2:25

to have marriage equality for same

2:27

sex couples . So I had been

2:29

planning events for a nonprofit and I

2:31

had been going to the

2:33

state house because they were trying to

2:35

change the constitution to ban

2:37

marriage equality . But I saw all

2:39

of these couples fighting for their rights and

2:41

I was like , oh my gosh , this is definitely

2:44

going to go through . Someone's got

2:46

to plan those weddings and it's going to be

2:48

me . So I decided , basically

2:51

right there on the state house steps , to

2:53

start a business specializing in

2:55

basically being an activist wedding

2:57

planner to help these couples navigate a very

2:59

traditional industry . And so

3:01

I did that for a while . And as time went on

3:04

, I started reaching out and connecting

3:06

with folks in the wedding industry and helping them

3:08

better understand LGBTQ

3:11

inclusion , and I knew that I could have

3:13

my message be broader than just the

3:15

couples that I was working with , but that

3:17

I could impact the industry as well . And

3:20

as time went on , I also moved to New York City

3:22

and started planning very high end

3:24

weddings there , and I

3:27

really also lost my sense of

3:29

purpose in that work . You

3:31

know , when you're planning six figure weddings

3:34

and they don't really care

3:36

whether or not you know it's there's

3:39

anything unique or there's

3:41

nothing , it just starts to feel

3:43

taken for

3:45

granted the rights taken for granted , and

3:48

I just started to

3:50

lose my sense of purpose and

3:52

so eventually I got divorced

3:55

. So my own marriage fell apart

3:57

. You know , I

3:59

had a started to evolve my business away

4:01

from weddings and I essentially

4:04

phased out that part of my career

4:06

and evolved my speaking and

4:08

training business away from weddings and

4:10

away from LGBTQ inclusion

4:12

into diversity , equity

4:14

and inclusion more broadly . So that's

4:17

sort of been my evolution . I

4:19

will tell you that that's ugly

4:22

in between phase , between weddings

4:24

, and where I am now was kind

4:26

of ugly and lasted a few years

4:28

and you know that's very awkward . You

4:31

know that awkward growing pain . But

4:34

I , you know I had to reinvent myself and

4:37

really reintroduce

4:39

myself to an entirely different network

4:41

.

4:41

Yeah . Had you ever run an

4:44

event or organized

4:46

a wedding before

4:48

you decided to be a wedding

4:50

event organizer ?

4:53

No , I never organized a wedding . It was

4:55

just events like conferences and

4:57

meetings and stuff like that . So

5:00

, a I had to learn how to

5:02

be a wedding planner

5:04

and B that I had to unlearn

5:07

because gay couples were doing things differently

5:10

. So I had to sort of like unlearn

5:12

and reinvent , and

5:14

so that was kind of a really cool

5:16

experience . But one thing

5:18

that was interesting to kind

5:20

of figure out in hindsight is

5:23

that I never because I didn't

5:26

know it when I was in it but

5:28

I never truly felt authentic

5:30

in that work , sometimes

5:32

when I was working with my clients , but

5:35

you know , at the end of the day I

5:37

didn't really care about weddings , I

5:40

didn't care about the linens , I didn't care

5:42

about the lighting , the stationery

5:44

. I was kind of a waste of money

5:46

. I

5:49

did and I didn't right , but I didn't

5:51

have that deep sense of passion

5:53

that a lot of people did , and

5:56

so I was inauthentic

5:59

. I was kind of a fake

6:01

a

6:03

little bit . I just wasn't truly

6:06

living my purpose in that work . And

6:08

now that I am , I can sort of

6:10

see it . I

6:12

can see it from back , from , you know

6:14

in hindsight , but yeah

6:16

, it's all kind of you know , the

6:18

personal evolution and the professional

6:21

evolution . Intertwined

6:23

.

6:25

I like that it

6:27

reminds me a bit about in working

6:29

in human resources or people in culture

6:31

, in organizations . So helping

6:34

gay couples get married , I

6:36

mean that is a beautiful thing , particularly when

6:39

legislation has just changed and when

6:42

there are people working against that

6:44

legislation to undo it , and

6:46

so to help people access

6:50

something in society that heterosexual

6:52

people have is a really , really beautiful thing , right

6:54

? So I kind of get your purpose

6:56

. But

6:59

the reality of organizing weddings I

7:01

think sometimes that that

7:03

purpose gets lost from it because

7:05

it does become about the linen and the flowers and

7:08

the fights over who's getting invited and where

7:10

people are sitting on tables and in

7:13

a six-figure wedding I think that's even worse

7:15

somehow . But you know

7:18

, lots of people go and work in human resources

7:20

because they want to make organizations

7:22

better places , and I think sometimes

7:24

the reality is you just get

7:27

to work for the business and do what people

7:30

want you to do , which may not be caring for

7:32

the people who actually work for it . Yeah

7:36

, and I brought that up because in

7:41

DEI work , often

7:43

companies will start with training and

7:46

so they might do some unconscious bias training

7:48

or they might do some inclusive leadership training

7:51

with their leaders , and

7:53

then they go . Oh , we tried that and it

7:56

didn't work , so we're not going to

7:58

do any of that anymore . But

8:00

I know that you take a much more

8:02

holistic approach to DEI

8:04

work and I wondered if you would talk a bit about

8:06

that .

8:08

Yeah , in my research what

8:10

I've found is that the organizations

8:13

that have advanced the most in DEI

8:15

have three very strong

8:17

components , which

8:20

I call PSA . The first

8:22

is a very strong sense of purpose

8:24

, a people driven purpose

8:27

that everyone can rally behind

8:29

. The second is

8:31

the S and that's the strategy . But

8:34

it's got to be a holistic strategy , touching

8:36

all of the different functions of the organization . It

8:39

can't just be an HR strategy

8:41

. So it's S is strategy and it's

8:43

got to be holistic . And then

8:45

the A is accountability

8:48

. There has to be accountability

8:50

for metrics . Leaders should absolutely

8:53

be held accountable , but a lot

8:55

of the best leading organizations every

8:57

employee is somehow held

9:00

to DEI standards as well . So

9:02

purpose plus strategy plus

9:05

accountability is really the formula

9:07

that I like to use

9:09

to showcase the organizations that are

9:11

doing the best work .

9:14

Yeah , I love that . So

9:16

what are some of the things ? When you , when

9:20

you go into organizations , where do you start with

9:22

them ? If they come to you and say

9:24

, bernadette , I want some unconscious bias training

9:27

, and you go hold on like , where do

9:29

you start with them ?

9:31

You know , I'll be honest , I

9:34

wish that I had more control

9:36

over that . You know , sometimes

9:39

we're just being reactive and

9:41

they're saying , hey , we want

9:43

a workshop series and

9:45

that's it . Sorry , you

9:48

can try to sell us something else , but nope

9:51

, all we want is a workshop , you

9:53

know . And so sometimes

9:55

that's what we're doing . But

9:57

in a perfect world , when we are

9:59

just getting to know an organization

10:02

and they want us to be fully involved

10:04

, then we're looking

10:06

, we do , we conduct what's called

10:08

the inclusive 360 assessment , which is based

10:11

on the name of my book . It's based on this

10:13

, this app , this tool we had custom built

10:15

and it essentially is looking at gaps

10:18

for equity and inclusion across 16

10:21

different organizational functions . And

10:23

so we're looking at things

10:25

like pay , we're looking at supplier

10:27

diversity , we're looking at marketing

10:30

and product development and customer

10:32

service training and we're

10:34

looking at different elements of HR

10:36

, like recruiting , but also performance

10:39

management and onboarding and all

10:41

of the different benefits you know . So we're

10:43

looking at all of these different functions

10:46

for these specific gaps

10:48

, and when we do that , we can get

10:50

a really strong sense of where the opportunities

10:53

are and then we can start to make

10:55

targeted interventions and recommendations

10:57

. So we really have to assess

11:00

the current state in

11:02

order to really know where we

11:04

need to go .

11:05

Yeah , have you , or where

11:08

have you , had success with that approach and

11:10

have you been able to , I

11:12

guess , demonstrate organizations who've been able

11:14

to move forward with this work ?

11:18

Oh , this is such a hard . You would think this

11:20

would be an easy question . I know

11:22

, right , you know

11:24

we have no , no , no

11:26

it's . You know it's it's hard because

11:28

we have clients who are going through it , but

11:32

you know they're just , they're in the middle

11:34

of it and it's still messy and we don't

11:36

have all you know , so it's I

11:38

can't say , yeah , that

11:40

this is , this is

11:42

the best case study . We're not there

11:44

yet . You know this , this

11:46

work , this approach that we're doing now , we

11:49

started in earnest about a year and

11:51

a half ago . Prior to

11:53

that and prior to developing this approach

11:56

, we were fired from two different

11:58

consulting projects because our

12:01

approach was kind of vague , you

12:03

know , not super specific . You

12:05

know , and that's kind of how a

12:07

lot of DEI is kind

12:10

of vague hey , diversify

12:12

your talent pipeline , well , how do

12:14

you do that ? You know that's not really a helpful

12:16

recommendation , and so

12:18

what we have got come from is

12:21

super specificity

12:23

. So we're looking to deliver

12:25

action items and recommendations

12:29

that are so specific and

12:31

tell you how to do this , to

12:34

remove the excuse of not doing it

12:36

. So that's our

12:39

approach . And , yeah

12:41

, we're still in the messy middle . So I can't

12:43

say , hey , you know , we have these

12:46

studies yet , but they're coming .

12:49

Yeah , I love that you talk

12:51

about being super specific about what

12:53

organizations need to do , because

12:56

I

12:58

think there's two types of organizations

13:00

I come across and one is the ones who go

13:02

. We just want to be seen to be doing something , and

13:04

usually it doesn't matter what it

13:06

is . I will do some training , or we'll

13:08

do we'll do lots of events for

13:11

Pride Month , or we'll do a

13:13

big marketing play around International Women's

13:15

Day . So you know , there's that group . And

13:19

then there's the group who actually

13:21

committed

13:24

you know a purpose

13:26

and people driven , like you talked about

13:28

, and just want

13:30

to be led and just want to be advised

13:33

. And I think that super specific

13:35

approach would be really great

13:37

for those organizations because they can go . You

13:40

know we have this much capacity this year

13:42

. We want to work on our diverse talent

13:45

pipeline , so tell us how to do that and we

13:47

will do it . And then they might want to do one other

13:49

thing and I think that's

13:51

a really helpful approach for those organizations

13:54

, that , yeah .

13:55

Yeah , I think so , and you know , here's

13:58

the thing is that we're

14:00

when we're , when

14:02

we're spreading out the responsibility

14:06

of DEI , when it becomes part

14:08

of everyone's job and it becomes a lens

14:10

that applies to all

14:12

different kinds of decision making , we

14:15

can start to get some really small wins

14:17

, and then we celebrate the wins

14:19

and the different functions and we just keep

14:21

going , and really I

14:24

think that that's going to be important as well , to

14:26

make sure that we do

14:28

more of what's working . You know , that's my

14:30

thing is celebrate what's working and do more

14:33

of that , because I think

14:35

that it can be discouraging for

14:38

folks who aren't , who feel like , oh , we're

14:40

not moving fast enough . And then

14:42

, of course , there are the people who are the DEI

14:45

resistors , and so you

14:47

know , the people who are actually doing the work sometimes

14:49

feel like they can't ever win because

14:52

they're getting at getting it from both sides

14:54

. So we really want to make sure we

14:57

celebrate those wins .

14:59

Yep , yep , I so agree . You've

15:01

got to celebrate your progress , or it's just

15:04

emotional

15:06

and sometimes

15:08

soul destroying work inside organizations

15:11

. Yeah , having been there , one

15:15

of the things I wanted to talk about is when

15:18

I was in a D&I role , I

15:21

was within the HR function . I was part

15:23

of the talent function in the organization

15:25

I worked in and

15:29

I have a really strong HR background and

15:31

I thought , going

15:34

into that role when I was new , that having

15:36

that HR background would be really helpful

15:39

, because I understand

15:41

the talent processes . I understand

15:44

how we recruit people into the business . I understand

15:46

how we identify successes

15:49

for roles and talent that we want to retain

15:52

in the organization . I know how we

15:54

pay people . I know

15:56

about the gender pay gap that exists

15:58

. I know how to develop

16:00

. I know all the big processes

16:02

that happen around people in organizations basically . So

16:07

I mean a great background , right . And

16:09

then there were times in my role where

16:12

the

16:14

budget was sort of hard to access . Even

16:17

though I had it in part of my role

16:19

, I

16:22

couldn't access senior leaders . I

16:26

struggled to get

16:28

things done and I could see people

16:30

outside of the HR function getting

16:32

stuff done in D&I . I could see

16:34

our employee resource groups

16:36

make progress and

16:38

get things done because they didn't have the constraints

16:41

of the HR background

16:43

. If that makes sense and I know you have

16:45

a view on this and I wondered if you'd talk a bit

16:47

about you know where should DEI

16:50

roles sit ? And often they're our clients , aren't

16:52

they ?

16:54

Yeah , I mean , I'll be honest right

16:56

now , a lot of our clients DEI

16:58

sits in HR , and the problem

17:01

with that , though , is that that budget

17:03

is not always protected . So

17:05

, just a couple of years ago , we are

17:08

a client did not renew their

17:10

contract with us because they said

17:12

, you know , they don't have a protected DEI

17:15

budget . It's about prioritizing employee

17:17

salaries , and I get

17:19

that , but when

17:21

DEI sits outside of HR

17:24

and it becomes part of everyone's

17:26

responsibility and the reporting

17:29

goes to the COO

17:31

or the CEO or somewhere on

17:34

the executive leadership team

17:36

, when we're thinking about DEI

17:38

separately across all business functions

17:41

, then we're probably

17:43

going to have a different type of budget conversation

17:45

we're about . We can have influence

17:48

in different ways across

17:51

all the other functions . So it

17:53

just makes a lot more sense if

17:56

we're trying to actually get stuff

17:58

done . You know , if you're looking

18:00

to be performative and you just sort

18:03

of want to throw up another diversity , training

18:05

or act like you're doing the right

18:07

thing , sure , fine

18:09

, put it in HR . But

18:13

if you actually want to

18:15

make real progress and you want

18:17

to take this seriously , then

18:19

it's time to change the reporting

18:22

structure .

18:23

Yeah , are you working with anyone

18:25

who reports outside

18:27

of the HR function ?

18:32

No , not on , not with our consulting

18:34

clients , with

18:37

workshops , yes .

18:39

Yeah , Okay , Okay

18:41

. A

18:44

lot of DEI work had

18:48

urgency in 2020

18:50

because we had

18:52

George Floyd's murder , we

18:55

had a pandemic , and

18:58

so we saw lots of organisations scrambling

19:00

to do this work . We're

19:02

now four years later

19:04

. How have you seen the work change

19:07

or the focus of the work change ?

19:10

Yeah , it is changing

19:12

. I was talking to a

19:14

friend in the US

19:16

state of Texas who

19:19

said that they

19:21

don't use the word DEI anymore

19:23

. Stuffed out

19:25

a long time

19:27

ago

19:30

, so part of how it's changing

19:32

depends on where you live . Here

19:34

in Chicago , I feel like DEI is alive

19:36

and well , so

19:39

there's that sort of fragmented

19:42

piece here in our country . What

19:44

I will say , though , is that the

19:48

most successful

19:50

companies , the Fortune 1000

19:52

and beyond , know that

19:55

they cannot get away with not

19:57

having DEI , so

19:59

they're doing their

20:01

thing , and anyone

20:03

else is truly going to be left behind

20:05

. So it's

20:08

just , it's a business imperative

20:10

, to be honest , so I don't really think it's going

20:12

anywhere . I think that

20:14

the media has it overblown . I

20:17

think that it's shifting away from

20:19

hiring

20:22

targets or diversity

20:24

quotas , which we're not saying , but

20:26

hiring targets pledges that were made specifically

20:28

around representation numbers . I

20:31

think that's shifting , and

20:33

so that they don't get accused of

20:36

being reverse discriminatory , but

20:40

I think that what

20:42

there's a lot more focus on now is inclusion

20:45

and making sure that

20:47

employees have a good experience

20:49

, and that's

20:54

still happening , or at least that's still

20:56

. I think that's sort of shifted as

20:58

the goal .

21:00

Yeah

21:03

, I wanted to ask

21:05

what you're optimistic about

21:07

and because you

21:09

have this really cool thing you do on Monday

21:11

mornings in the US , which is good vibes

21:13

in DEI , where you

21:16

talk to people about good things that

21:18

have happened around the world

21:20

in this space and

21:24

there are good stories out there . What

21:27

are you optimistic about with this

21:29

work ?

21:33

I am irrationally

21:37

optimistic sometimes , let's

21:39

be honest

21:41

. But

21:44

here's the thing I'm

21:48

optimistic because I get to talk to great

21:50

people every day . Great people

21:53

have really good intentions

21:55

and are just trying to figure out how they can

21:57

do a little bit better . And

21:59

if I can help them do a little bit better

22:01

, then we're all winning and

22:04

there's a ripple effect and it multiplies

22:06

. And so I

22:08

know that , I

22:11

see it , I have those conversations , and

22:15

so that gives me hope . And also

22:17

I have a lot of optimism because

22:19

of I know the demographics here in the

22:21

US . I know that

22:24

DEI

22:26

is an inevitability , so

22:29

I just know that

22:31

it's here and my

22:34

message I'm hopeful that

22:37

all of this is

22:39

just we're

22:42

moving towards progress . I don't know , I just

22:44

feel , like I said

22:46

, irrationally optimistic sometimes

22:48

.

22:51

I love that Irrationally optimistic

22:53

because it must feel

22:55

like a tug of war in the US some

22:58

days where you've got different states

23:00

moving in different directions and

23:02

pieces of legislation going

23:06

sometimes in a good direction , sometimes

23:08

not so much . Yeah , that

23:10

must be challenging .

23:12

Yeah , it is , but

23:14

it's my , it's my

23:16

mission , it's my purpose

23:19

to spread the good news , right

23:21

? And so I do that in my newsletter

23:23

that goes out on Saturday mornings and I do it in the podcast

23:26

that you were a guest on . And so

23:28

, yeah , celebrating what's

23:30

working and how can we do more

23:32

of that , and because I

23:34

have this sort of discipline about writing

23:37

the five things newsletter and

23:39

finding five stories every week that

23:41

celebrate what's working sort of keeps

23:43

me in this optimistic mindset

23:45

because I have to find the stories

23:49

. It's like part of

23:51

my brand . I share these files , gosh

23:53

, where I need another story sometimes

23:55

, and that's how it goes , but

23:57

it just keeps me in that mindset

24:00

.

24:01

Yeah , cool . How can people

24:03

get on your newsletter and

24:05

watch your good vibes

24:07

in DEI ?

24:10

The best way to get on my newsletter is to go to

24:12

fivethingsdeicom

24:14

and you can subscribe there

24:17

, and at the bottom of that page you

24:19

can also learn more about the podcast

24:22

, which is called Five Things in 15 Minutes

24:24

, and you

24:26

can find it on any podcast platform

24:28

if you search by Five Things in 15

24:30

Minutes or Good Vibes in DEI

24:33

. Good Vibes in

24:35

DEI .

24:37

I love that , and you

24:39

go live on LinkedIn

24:42

on Monday mornings

24:44

Central time

24:46

oh no , tell me what time .

24:49

It's 12 , 12 central , so

24:51

that's one Eastern US . I

24:54

don't know what time it was there for you in

24:56

New Zealand . Was it 10am the next day ?

24:58

It was 7am the next day , so

25:01

if you're in Australia that's 5am , but you

25:03

can watch the replay , which is so good

25:05

, about LinkedIn Live . If you can't attend live

25:08

, it's always there for you to watch

25:10

it when you get out of bed , which is really

25:12

cool . How can people

25:15

work with you ? Where can they find you ?

25:17

Go to BernadetteSmithcom and

25:20

you'll find my speaker reel

25:22

a little bit

25:24

more about me . My website

25:27

, like all that good stuff , is at BernadetteSmithcom

25:29

. Cool .

25:31

And you have a book and I love people who

25:33

have books . I think so clever . Tell

25:37

us a bit about what your book's about and maybe

25:39

why you wrote it and where can you find

25:42

it so

25:44

.

25:44

First of all , Lisa , I have four books

25:46

, but are you talking about the ? Ones

25:49

that gave weddings

25:51

. Is that the one you want to learn about ?

25:52

Gay weddings . No , I mean , that sounds really

25:54

fun , but I was thinking

25:57

you're . Is it Inclusive 360

25:59

book .

26:01

Yeah , inclusive 360 was

26:03

my first book that had nothing to do with

26:05

gay weddings and that came

26:07

out two years ago . That

26:10

felt like the turning

26:12

of the page , like the official turning

26:15

of the page . You left the weddings

26:17

behind . That's right . And

26:20

the book is really about like I was just

26:22

talking about before , thinking about DEI

26:25

as an entire organization

26:27

across all the functions , and so it

26:29

has lots of best practices and

26:31

great ideas from the world's most progressive

26:34

organizations . So it's

26:36

just jam packed full of content

26:38

and very it's a very practical

26:41

book .

26:43

And I love practical books because I think sometimes

26:47

the books will tell you the theory

26:50

but not actually

26:52

how to do it , and I think when

26:55

people want to do things and when

26:57

they want to make progress , they often know

26:59

kind of some of the theory around

27:01

it . How do you actually operationalize

27:05

it inside a big organization ? I think that's

27:08

the hard bit . So , yeah

27:10

, it sounds like your book would be great for that

27:12

.

27:13

Yeah , exactly that's exactly the point

27:16

, and I love the book

27:18

. I , you know it's been a couple years now and

27:20

I'm like , I still like

27:22

my book . I think it came out in 2021

27:25

, not 2022 . Anyway , yeah , I'm

27:27

still really proud of it and someday

27:30

there will be another edition .

27:33

Oh wow . I was going to say are you itching to write another

27:35

book ? Because I've learned that once you've written

27:37

one book , it seems like a bit of

27:39

an obsession .

27:43

Yeah , I think . So I have a lot more to say . You

27:45

know , and there's more . There

27:47

have been shifts , so I don't I

27:50

think my next book is going to be the next edition

27:52

of this book . You know , kind of the same format

27:54

and flow and just with

27:56

a pretty heavy update . Because you

27:59

know , dei work is change management

28:01

, lots change .

28:03

Yep , you've got it and people can get

28:05

your book on your website .

28:08

Yeah , they can get my book anywhere . Anywhere

28:10

that you buy books , you can find inclusive 360

28:13

. So it's on my website

28:15

, it's on Amazon

28:17

, anywhere you buy books bookshop .

28:20

Cool . I love that , even

28:23

in New Zealand , because sometimes I find it hard

28:25

to get books here . You do have to go to the US

28:27

Amazon store to get

28:29

books sometimes , yeah . Yeah

28:31

we're at the end of the world down here in .

28:33

New . Zealand .

28:36

Oh , thank you so much for coming on

28:38

. A dog called diversity Bernadette , it's

28:40

been so lovely speaking with you .

28:43

My pleasure . Thank you , lisa . I always

28:45

enjoy every conversation we have . Like I said

28:47

before , and so sure , and

28:49

I look forward to staying in touch .

28:51

Yay , thank you Thanks

28:54

.