0:03

Welcome to a dog called Diversity this week

0:05

, and I have been

0:07

waiting and waiting to have this guest

0:09

on . And I've

0:12

been waiting because I think

0:14

our guest this week first

0:16

is Katrina North , and I've

0:19

been so excited to have her on because

0:21

she is the epitome

0:23

of the diversity and

0:26

inclusion community , and by

0:28

that I mean people who lead this work

0:30

in organisations , and

0:33

nearly everyone I've met in these

0:35

roles are kind

0:37

and generous and willing to help

0:39

. And I really got

0:41

to know Katrina when I was running

0:43

an event for my business in Sydney

0:46

and she popped up on LinkedIn and said

0:48

, do you need a venue ? And I was like , yes

0:50

, I do . And she very kindly

0:53

offered a room in her office

0:56

, which made a massive difference to me in my

0:58

building , in my business , sorry

1:00

, and it meant that I could donate . I think I was

1:02

able to donate $2,000 to Dress

1:04

for Success in Sydney . Yeah

1:07

, so such a fantastic person and she

1:09

has such a way of thinking about this

1:11

work that I wanted to share with

1:13

my listeners . So welcome to Katrina

1:16

. That was a big intro .

1:17

Why ? Thank you , Lisa . You're my number one

1:19

fan club . I need to hire you out , I know I

1:21

know , but thank you . You're awesome , very

1:25

generous in that introduction .

1:27

Thank you . Would you

1:29

talk a little

1:32

bit about , I guess , where you're based

1:34

and what you currently do ? Yeah , sure

1:37

.

1:38

So I'm based in Sydney , australia . I'm

1:40

currently the inclusion

1:42

, diversity and wellbeing lead for

1:45

Avanade for growth markets

1:47

, and I'll just unpack that for

1:49

a few people . Avanade

1:52

is a joint venture between Microsoft

1:54

and Accenture . We do deep

1:57

tech , b2b work

1:59

, predominantly around the

2:01

Microsoft suite , so we are a Microsoft

2:04

zero client ourselves and

2:07

we employ a whole

2:09

bunch of techies who

2:11

work with businesses . Growth

2:14

markets for Avanade is

2:16

pretty much the Southern Hemisphere , so it's Asia

2:18

Pacific , japan and Brazil

2:21

. So it's

2:23

what it says on the box . We are the growing

2:25

markets . So one

2:28

is location , but actually it's around maturity

2:30

and where

2:32

we're growing . So that's

2:34

my current role .

2:36

Thank you so much , katrina . And one

2:38

of the reasons I wanted you to come on

2:41

a dog called diversity was

2:43

because you've had , I guess , a

2:45

bit of a winding path to

2:47

the D&I roles

2:50

that you're currently you've done in the past and

2:52

what you're doing now and

2:54

a very diverse path

2:56

, and I

2:59

love that , because I don't think

3:01

there's one way to come to this work and there's

3:03

not one way to work out how

3:05

you make progress in organisations . I

3:08

wondered if you would talk a bit about , I

3:12

guess , when you first maybe

3:14

left school or left university and

3:17

was looking out into the future

3:19

, about what you wanted to be when you grew up

3:21

and what were some of the

3:23

things that you did that led you to where you

3:25

are .

3:27

Yeah , no , it's a great question and , reflecting on that

3:29

question , I remember very strongly

3:31

when I was at school . I either wanted

3:33

to be an aeronautical engineer or

3:36

an investment banker , and I

3:38

am neat one of those things . Yeah

3:43

, it was really , really interesting . So

3:45

I think I would

3:47

say I've had a career in two parts . I

3:49

kind of had a

3:51

pre-children and a post-children career . So

3:55

the pre-children career , you

3:57

know . I went off to uni , I was working

3:59

in a range of casual

4:02

and part-time jobs and

4:04

I ended up working

4:07

in hospitality . So I worked in reservations

4:09

. I was a reservations

4:12

manager for a

4:14

global hotel

4:17

chain and so that was really interesting and

4:19

taught me a lot about customer service and

4:21

taught me a lot about engaging

4:24

with the public and how that shows

4:26

up . And then I

4:29

had my children and I had

4:31

a bit of a career break . So

4:33

I was kind of out of the workforce

4:35

for a best part of five years . I

4:37

did some facilitation , I did some casual

4:40

work in that , but I wasn't really in full-time

4:42

work . And when I went back

4:44

I went back to work

4:46

as a research

4:49

analyst for a bank in

4:51

group strategy , in the office of the MD , so

4:54

a really different role . And

4:58

it was happenstance

5:00

that I happened to get that role

5:02

and I was incredibly

5:04

lucky . I worked with the most generous

5:06

group of people who

5:08

shared their expertise

5:10

, their experience , who took

5:13

me along to meetings , who would

5:15

say well , you

5:17

better come to this . You're going to end up doing the work and

5:20

you know it may have been selfish on their past I don't want

5:22

to have to tell you , I didn't have to reply it

5:24

but they gave me a platform , they

5:26

gave me exposure , they

5:28

gave me support and they let

5:30

me into their world and

5:33

that started , you know , my kind

5:35

of more formal career . So I then

5:37

spent most

5:39

of my career in kind of that . You

5:42

know the pointy end of the organisation

5:45

. So with the C-suite I

5:47

became a chartered company

5:50

secretary , so I have formal qualifications

5:52

in governance and

5:54

then I achieved

5:57

my MBA . So I have my

5:59

background is actually strategy in governance and

6:03

I stayed , you know , kind of working

6:05

at the C-suite

6:07

level with businesses about

6:09

businesses from

6:12

banking , professional services

6:14

, membership organisations

6:17

, a bit of a range of things . But

6:19

yeah , I am the diverse one in

6:22

the field of inclusion

6:24

and diversity practitioners because I have

6:26

a really different background and

6:29

I came to talent and this worked quite

6:31

late in my career .

6:34

What did you ? How did that happen ? How

6:36

did you transition from more

6:38

governance and strategy roles into

6:41

, I guess , quite

6:43

a different a people space ?

6:45

Yeah , yeah . So I was working

6:47

for a law society . I

6:49

was writing and helping some

6:51

of the strategy from the law society that

6:54

was going to be , or we thought

6:56

there would be A national change

6:58

and we would lose about 50%

7:01

of our revenue because of that change . We

7:05

sold CPD , we sold continual

7:07

professional development points

7:09

. It was a large part of our

7:11

revenue it was about 25% of our revenue

7:14

and we needed to prepare ourselves

7:16

to grow that business . So

7:18

I worked very closely on the strategy

7:21

around how we would sell

7:23

our learning , how

7:27

we could maximise that , how we needed to position that

7:29

. And I had

7:31

had some time at EY and EY

7:34

rang me up

7:36

and said we're looking for someone

7:38

to come and head up learning for

7:41

an Asia-Pacific role . Would

7:43

you be interested in that ? I said

7:45

I know nothing about learning . They

7:48

said , yeah , but this is a

7:50

serious role . At

7:53

that time it was about 35 , 40,000

7:55

people across furniture countries had

7:57

a very serious budget and

8:00

I looked at that and I

8:02

kind of went as a next step in my career

8:04

if I

8:06

was looking at maybe CEO roles or other

8:09

things that I was looking at at the time which were going to be

8:11

for much smaller organisation . This

8:13

was a much larger role . And

8:16

so I said yes , if I think about the work

8:18

that I'll be doing and how I could approach that , and

8:21

I kind of jumped in . I

8:23

was in that role for a little while and my

8:25

counterpart , who headed up

8:28

diversity and inclusion for Asia-Pac

8:30

at that time , was heading back to the

8:32

UK for family reasons and

8:37

they went through a round of recruitment and they

8:39

didn't find anyone . And then she

8:41

kind of gave me a call and said I

8:44

really would like you to consider taking on this role

8:46

. And I said but I've just got this one . And

8:49

she goes yeah , but we have this informal or

8:52

she ran an informal type of champions

8:55

or connection network . Anyone who is interested

8:57

could come along for an hour a month and

8:59

hear what was happening and share

9:01

ideas . And through that I

9:03

had been quite vocal as folks

9:05

who know me would know me to be and

9:08

said oh look , there's this opportunity coming . Why

9:10

don't we leverage that and try and do this ? Or

9:12

maybe we could improve our flexible

9:15

work in our office , fit out type

9:17

things . And she said you've

9:19

got a really unique approach

9:21

to some of this work and I think

9:23

you'd be great at it . So

9:26

that's how it happened . Ey

9:28

was incredibly generous to me . They gave

9:30

me six months to get up

9:32

to speed , so they let me

9:35

transition into that role , but

9:37

they also gave me this period of grace to

9:39

go and find out about what

9:42

it was I needed to find out to be proficient

9:44

in this role . And one

9:46

thing about inclusion

9:48

and diversity globally is

9:51

that there is a wealth , an absolute

9:53

wealth , of open source research . It has

9:55

to be one of the most researched aspects

9:58

of talent out there . There is always

10:01

a study , always a Harvard

10:05

business review , and there's McKinsey reports

10:07

. Everybody is in this space and

10:10

there's 40 years worth of history that's

10:12

easily accessible . So

10:14

I had six months to really

10:16

get myself up to speed . Again

10:19

, I had this really generous global team . I

10:21

had super experienced people

10:23

who were in the equivalent

10:25

of my role for a mayor on

10:27

North America . There was a team

10:29

. I had people in country

10:32

who were already doing this role

10:34

and a

10:36

year I was able to transition and

10:39

I was able , like you said , to bring a

10:41

different perspective and a different way of

10:43

thinking , which is sometimes

10:46

quite challenging for people because

10:48

I do think differently and see things

10:50

differently to a lot of folk in

10:52

our profession

10:54

and in the practice . But

10:57

it was an environment where you could safely challenge

10:59

and stretch

11:02

a little bit of thinking , and also I

11:04

had people who were quite

11:07

happy and quite comfortable to actually say

11:09

no , katrina , you've got the wrong end of the that's

11:12

, you're just wrong . That's

11:15

a really interesting perspective , but

11:17

yeah , let me tell you about why that won't work

11:20

. So that's how I

11:22

ended up really in talent

11:24

and specifically within IND .

11:27

Yeah , I'd

11:29

love to know what you

11:31

bring to this work that is

11:33

different and how you think differently about

11:35

it , and I suspect

11:37

having a background in strategy is

11:40

a fantastic help . But

11:45

I wonder what else you bring

11:47

. Can you talk a bit about that

11:49

?

11:49

Yeah , yeah . So I think the way

11:52

I talk and engage with leaders is different . I

11:54

talk to leaders about their business . So

11:57

, because they grew up , you know , in

12:01

that C-suite and in in

12:03

governance and in understanding a business

12:06

, I can talk to the leaders about their business

12:08

. So it's a really different

12:10

way of engaging and I find it's a much

12:12

easier in I'm talking to the leaders

12:14

about what they're doing , what

12:17

improvements they want to make in their business , what

12:19

their business objectives are and

12:21

how we might get there . So

12:23

, one , it's kind of talking their language and

12:25

it's talking to them about things

12:27

that are important to them rather than

12:30

things that are important to me . And

12:33

secondly , I talk to them about

12:35

their leadership style and their leadership step

12:38

shadow . So I always

12:40

ask a leader what do you want

12:42

to be known for and by whom ? Particularly

12:45

new leaders . And

12:49

I ask them to reflect on

12:51

times when they've felt valued

12:53

, when they've felt cared

12:55

for , when they've been given

12:57

a platform , where they've felt the people

13:00

invest in them and how

13:02

that impacted them , you

13:04

know . And , conversely , when

13:07

they haven't had those opportunities or they it

13:09

hasn't been safe to speak up or they haven't

13:12

felt valued , and

13:14

then I kind of make it a bit pointy , like

13:16

well , you're the leader now You're

13:21

the person who can create that environment

13:23

. How

13:26

can I help you do that ? What help would you like for me

13:28

to do that ? And what help

13:31

would you like for me to do that in the service

13:33

of whatever your business objectives are ? So

13:35

if it's , you know , growing a new

13:37

, if it's expanding into a new area , if it's

13:40

managing

13:43

with a difficult client , if it's bringing

13:45

a diverse team up to speed , whatever

13:47

that is , but it is a

13:49

subtle shift in terms of

13:51

how we talk to folk

13:54

and I

13:56

think it's given me an edge . I

13:59

think the other thing I and

14:01

this is a bit controversial , but the

14:03

other thing is people

14:06

talk about the head and the heart and

14:09

I

14:11

think IND practitioners at

14:13

time can get a bit too caught up in the theory . We

14:15

have to understand and know the theory absolutely

14:18

and then

14:20

we feel sometimes I think compelled

14:22

to share that and hope that we win people's hearts

14:24

. And I remember , really seniorly

14:27

, they're saying to me but how are you going to win their hearts , katrina

14:29

? And I said I don't need them to win their hearts

14:31

, I need them to behave differently . And

14:34

I would bring it back to some other corporate

14:37

processes . You know , like if you want to get your

14:39

expenses paid , you follow the

14:41

corporate process because you want

14:43

to get your expenses paid , right ? Yeah

14:45

, we don't win

14:48

people's hearts to get there

14:50

. We just tell them follow this process , this

14:52

is how you get paid , yeah . So

14:54

I think there's a shortcut there for us . We

14:56

can think about . What are the behaviors that

14:58

we want to see and how do

15:00

we create the environment where it's easy for people

15:03

to do those behaviors ? Rather

15:05

than try and win this , win

15:08

their hearts , because

15:11

I think these are busy people , yeah . They

15:14

have other priorities and

15:17

we want to make it as easy as possible

15:19

for them to behave in the way that we

15:21

need them to behave , and

15:24

I think we seem to be

15:26

the only business unit out there striving

15:29

for people's hearts . Finance isn't

15:31

, marketing isn't , strategy

15:33

isn't . So

15:36

I'm not . I think we get a bit hung up on that , and

15:38

it's not saying that the hearts are not important , but

15:42

actually just make it that shortest distance

15:44

for people to behave in a way that you want them to behave , make

15:47

it as easy as possible for them to do that

15:49

and tell them you

15:52

know , in my experience , most people want to

15:54

do the right thing , most people want

15:56

to be a better leader Just tell

15:58

them what they need to do , that Don't

16:00

make them guess and don't give

16:02

them a whole lot of theory and make it you

16:04

know and hope that they work it out for themselves

16:07

. Or give them a huge

16:09

choice and hope that they pick the right one . Give

16:12

them really practical , pragmatic

16:14

stuff that they can do , and

16:18

that doesn't simple

16:20

, doesn't mean easy , right

16:22

, some simple things that you can do may still

16:24

be difficult and hard , but

16:26

I knew they will need support and guidance through

16:28

that . Yeah

16:31

, that's the conversation I have , which I

16:34

think it's a bit different and it's a bit controversial

16:36

.

16:38

Well , yeah , I had to learn that lesson

16:40

very early in my career

16:43

between head and heart . And

16:45

I can remember I was working for a Steve Adoring

16:47

company . It was a very blokey

16:50

, male dominated business

16:53

, and

16:57

I can remember going out to the port to watch some of the

16:59

sexual harassment training

17:01

or anti sexual harassment training

17:04

, and we

17:06

had actors and and I can remember having

17:08

a conversation with one of the men who was part

17:10

of the training and I was very young and

17:13

he's 50s or 60s and you

17:16

know him basically saying all this stuff is bullshit

17:18

and and and me trying to convince

17:21

his heart , me saying , well

17:23

, what if it was your daughter who was being harassed

17:25

on a work site ? And but

17:28

then very quickly realizing

17:30

he can think whatever he wants , but

17:33

the behavior that we

17:35

need is that you will not

17:37

harass anyone

17:40

, whether it's a woman or a man or otherwise

17:42

, on your site . And I

17:45

think that's such a good learning

17:48

. And I think one of the

17:50

challenges we're seeing in diversity and

17:52

inclusion is there

17:55

are many people who've been appointed

17:57

from a place of their identity

17:59

. So they've been appointed to a D and I role

18:01

because they showed interest in gender

18:04

equity or they're gay

18:06

and they're running the internal network

18:09

for gay people , or

18:13

there are some sort of minority that

18:15

might have a disability , and so we

18:17

make the mistake of well , it's

18:20

not a mistake , but we appoint

18:22

these people who have such a good heart for the

18:24

work , and because they've been appointed

18:27

, because who they are , they do lead that work

18:29

from their heart , instead of being taught

18:31

. You know how to , how to navigate

18:33

the organization effectively and how to

18:35

get the behavior change in the most effective

18:37

way . Yeah

18:40

, so I love what you said . It

18:44

is hard to do D and I work , though

18:46

I think if you don't have a value

18:48

around the work , is it

18:50

personally important to you ? Have you

18:52

? You know , is there something about the work that that

18:55

sits in your heart ?

18:57

Yeah , absolutely . So look , I'm a

18:59

very strong social justice

19:01

lefty

19:03

, so

19:07

there is , there is this sense of , for

19:09

me , absolutely what is the right thing to

19:11

do , like what is what is just the

19:13

right thing ? And

19:17

and there's this governance and

19:19

strategic

19:22

aspects . So , you know , through my training

19:24

, you kind of go organizations

19:26

, in particular , these unique

19:28

constructs

19:30

in our environment . They're given vast

19:33

amounts of latitude

19:35

. You know they exist in perpetuity and

19:38

and people who are

19:41

either their C suite , you know , or

19:43

their directors , are custodians of

19:46

of that organization for

19:48

a short time . And so

19:50

I think I bring that to it as well , that kind

19:52

of understanding around an organization

19:55

and the fact that they have these , these

19:58

privileges . And with those privileges comes

20:01

some responsibilities . And

20:04

you know , our job in an organization

20:06

is to create an environment where everybody

20:08

can do and be their best , and

20:12

for me , inclusion in

20:14

particular is all encompassing . You

20:16

know , we do our work for

20:18

different segments of

20:21

the community and we need

20:23

to do it in a way that is

20:25

all encompassing for everybody , so that

20:27

we are creating an environment where everybody

20:29

and I mean everybody can

20:32

and do their

20:34

best work the majority of the time , and

20:37

that's a really hard skill . That's

20:39

really hard . People really underestimate

20:41

the sophistication of

20:44

that skill , particularly when you're leading a

20:46

group of diverse people . So

20:52

I think I've gone off track a little bit , but

20:56

that's my drivers . And

20:59

when you have an environment where

21:02

people

21:04

are thriving

21:06

, where they are doing their best

21:08

, where they're being their best , then

21:11

business is better . You

21:13

know , business is easier , You'll

21:15

get less customer complaints , you'll

21:18

have better revenue , you

21:20

have less risk or you can manage your

21:22

risk differently . There's a whole host

21:25

of really positive , you

21:27

know spin-offs

21:30

for what a business

21:32

is there to do and

21:34

it's good for the individual . So

21:37

that's also how I come to it . And again

21:39

, it's quite different

21:41

to my peers and

21:43

my counterparts in this space

21:46

who often come with

21:48

a very strong advocacy

21:51

. And it's not that I'm not an advocate , but

21:54

there is a lived experience type of advocacy

21:57

around . This may

21:59

have happened , or I've witnessed this , or I've experienced

22:02

this , and we have to change that and

22:04

I think that's really valuable input . I

22:07

think it's insight and input

22:09

that you need to balance with the context of the business

22:11

doing whatever the business needs to do

22:13

.

22:14

Yeah , yeah , such wise

22:16

words , I think . What

22:19

One of the

22:21

things that I think can be frustrating

22:24

with this work is often

22:26

you don't see instant

22:29

progress , or you

22:31

might see something move

22:33

forward , but then you actually might see it

22:36

take a step back again . But

22:38

what are some of the things you're really proud of

22:41

that you feel like have made a

22:43

difference in the work you've done ?

22:45

Yeah , so some of the things are pivoting

22:48

people's thinking . So I can remember

22:51

when I arrived , there

22:53

were these In some other organisations

22:55

. There were these allies campaigns and

22:58

you know we're supporting women

23:00

and we're supporting the LGBTQ plus

23:02

community and we're supporting ethnicity

23:05

and race and we're supporting people

23:07

of different ages . And this is what it means to

23:09

be an ally and that's important

23:12

. And then I

23:14

had kind of this Well

23:17

, for me it was an aha moment . It's no longer an aha

23:19

moment , but I had my own little light bulb

23:21

and I kind of went if we could

23:23

encourage people to

23:25

be more inclusive , it doesn't matter what the diversity

23:28

is . So you

23:31

know , really pivoting and focusing

23:34

around , actually what we're going to do is talk about

23:36

how you're a more inclusive leader or

23:38

how you're a more inclusive person . What

23:41

are those behaviours ? What are

23:43

the three things you could walk out of this

23:45

session and do differently and have

23:47

a positive impact ? And some of them are really simple

23:49

, basic things . How

23:53

do you think about impact ? You

23:55

know your leadership shadow and what you want to

23:57

be known for and really

23:59

talk about being inclusive

24:02

. Because it's

24:04

like that's a rising tide that

24:06

will lift all boats and

24:11

there are absolutely a need for

24:13

interventions for different populations

24:15

of the community ? Absolutely , and

24:19

there's this bigger piece around

24:21

. Let's just teach people to be more inclusive

24:23

more generally and give people

24:26

a better overall experience , and

24:29

to have a conversation about how do you engage

24:31

with someone who is different from you , whatever

24:33

that difference is . Is it their way of thinking

24:35

? Is it their education ? Is it because they're a different

24:37

gender ? Is it because they're a different

24:40

skin colour to you ? Whatever that

24:42

difference is , is it cultural ? You

24:44

know , of course , you speak different languages

24:47

. Literally , how do you engage

24:49

with someone who is different from you and how do you

24:51

have an effective

24:53

working relationship and support that person

24:55

who is different from you ? So

25:01

, yeah , did that answer your question ?

25:04

Yeah , definitely , and

25:07

I

25:10

love what you said about that

25:13

. Of course , there are groups in any organisation

25:15

that need specific attention and support

25:17

and help , but focusing

25:20

on the overall inclusion

25:23

. So you

25:25

know , it doesn't matter how you're different

25:27

, you can still be part and

25:29

feel like you belong . And

25:32

I think that solves the problem

25:35

in organisations to an extent

25:37

where and I've

25:39

seen this where you might

25:41

be doing a disability initiative

25:43

and you might be doing a

25:45

Pride initiative and

25:48

another group comes along

25:50

and says well , what about us ? What

25:53

about you ? Know , whatever

25:56

it is and the

25:58

thing in organisations , there's

26:01

finite resources . So

26:03

if you're doing a disability initiative and

26:05

you're doing a Pride initiative , you

26:08

might not have the funds , the

26:10

capacity , you

26:14

know , or the people to

26:16

take on more , and so then you're

26:18

saying to some groups well , you're more important

26:20

at the moment than other groups , which is not

26:23

building inclusion , whereas if you kind of , you

26:26

need to be able to do some of those things . But if you're focusing

26:29

on building inclusive leaders , I think

26:31

you go

26:33

further .

26:35

Yeah , and you do have

26:37

to prioritise . That's you know we

26:39

are . Every organisation has

26:42

limited resources , limited time

26:44

, limited capital , limited energy

26:46

. So you do have to prioritise

26:48

and I think having

26:51

a really clear strategy is

26:54

helpful because it allows people

26:56

to . Where is this ? On the strategy

26:58

? This is what our people have told us , this is what we've

27:01

identified , this is what we think

27:03

will have the greatest impact . So

27:05

this is where we're focusing being

27:07

clear around that communication , because

27:09

the other thing around inclusion and

27:12

diversity , which I'm sure you're aware of , is

27:14

what I call the random acts of kindness . So

27:17

not a day goes past that someone

27:19

doesn't say I've had such a great idea or

27:21

I'd really like to do blah , and

27:25

it's , and

27:27

people are very well-meaning and

27:29

it comes from a good place , and

27:31

it's a complete distraction most

27:33

of the time , and often not on

27:35

strategy . So how you manage

27:38

those random acts of kindness , how

27:41

you can prioritise based on your

27:43

strategic goals , and

27:45

how you can gracefully either

27:48

ignore or say no or

27:51

defer some

27:53

of those other random acts of

27:55

kindness , but you're

27:57

right . And then there is often the backlash

27:59

. You know . So how , why are these people

28:01

? And we're seeing it play out in America

28:04

at the moment . Yeah , rit Large

28:06

, you know why

28:08

these people getting an advantage that I don't

28:10

have . That's not fair in inverted

28:12

commas , with no consideration

28:15

to individuals' pathways

28:17

to where they currently are or

28:20

how fair or otherwise those pathways may

28:22

have been . But I

28:24

think that's why , if you can have a more holistic

28:27

conversation , if you can frame

28:29

things in that we are creating an environment

28:32

where everybody can do and be

28:34

their best the majority of the time , then

28:37

that talks to everybody and

28:41

it is about everybody . Right

28:44

, it's , it

28:46

has to be . And the other conversation that I

28:48

find really one

28:50

that I wish people were having . Morals is

28:53

in my mind if

28:55

you actually want to have impact and change , you

28:57

need the majority to change their behaviour

28:59

. So when you focus on the

29:01

minority or when you focus on the underrepresented

29:04

and you're not bringing the majority

29:06

along in that conversation , or you're not

29:09

talking or engaging with the majority

29:11

, you're almost

29:13

on a hiding to nothing . You can , you'll

29:15

wear yourself out , because

29:19

you , to actually create

29:21

a better environment for everybody , you need the majority

29:24

to change . We don't need the underrepresented

29:26

groups to change Like

29:29

. That's not our job . We

29:32

invest a lot in supporting them and

29:35

sometimes I think we do that at the expense

29:37

of really focusing on

29:39

how we need the majority to change and

29:42

what small changes or

29:44

big changes you could

29:46

get the majority to

29:49

adopt . That would

29:51

make life so much better for

29:54

the groups you

29:56

know that we serve .

30:01

You've talked about a couple

30:03

of things that are

30:05

important in diversity and inclusion

30:07

work . So one being strategy

30:10

, one being able

30:12

to talk the language of

30:14

business and you

30:16

know I'm paraphrasing , but it's almost

30:19

meeting people where they are not

30:22

leading with heart but , you know

30:24

, leading with head kind of work . What

30:27

are some of the other things that you think it's important

30:30

to have as

30:32

skills in this work ?

30:36

Resilience and patience and

30:41

a good support network . You

30:43

know you will see the best and the worst

30:45

of humanity in your workplace and

30:48

outside of your workplace , right , you literally

30:51

see the highs and the lows . The

30:53

average staff doesn't come to you , it

30:57

really doesn't . Other people are doing that . So

30:59

you see the highs and the lows . So

31:04

being aware I can remember my first

31:06

nine months or so was so confronting

31:09

because it was

31:11

just do we really do that ? Did

31:13

someone really have that experience ? Oh

31:15

, I draw dropping

31:17

in terms of

31:20

what was

31:22

being presented and what I was being asked to deal with

31:24

, and also going I'm

31:26

not a psychologist , what

31:29

would I know ? I'm completely under-equipped

31:31

to provide

31:33

any guidance or help . How

31:35

will I do this ? So

31:39

absolutely resilience around

31:41

that . Have a good support network , be able

31:43

to debrief and then , as

31:45

you've been in the space for longer , patience

31:48

. So you will have the same conversations

31:51

many , many times with different

31:53

people . Every time there's

31:55

a new executive sponsor , you'll be briefing

31:57

them . Every time there's a change

32:00

of talent leader , you'll

32:02

be briefing them . Every time

32:04

there's a change of executive

32:07

leader , you'll be briefing them . Sometimes

32:09

you need to brief those people more than once

32:11

on the same thing because it takes

32:13

a while and

32:16

sometimes that can be really wearing . And

32:20

sometimes I

32:22

find in those business

32:26

roles where they've been appointed

32:28

a champion or they're passionate

32:30

about this , or they're your exec sponsor

32:32

, those roles tend to rotate more than

32:35

our roles do . So

32:37

you can go through this kind of two-year

32:39

cycle . You brief somebody , you get them up

32:41

to stage , you've got them engaged in the

32:43

strategy , you've got a good working

32:46

relationship with them , you've

32:48

got them doing things that you need them to do

32:50

at the meetings that you're not at , and

32:52

then they say I'm off to another job or

32:55

I'm really busy now , and so on . So

32:57

we're going to give this opportunity

32:59

to so and so and

33:01

you're laughing , you've been here to

33:03

I'm so busy , you're

33:06

right back at scratch at square one , and

33:08

so it's going to take a couple of months to

33:11

get that person up to stage and that

33:13

can be a bit frustrating . So

33:16

just knowing that that is the reality

33:18

of our role is

33:20

really important , I think , knowing

33:23

that you'll have the same conversation with

33:25

a bunch of people and

33:28

then I go choose your battles . So

33:30

in my experience , people

33:32

are either calling on IND one

33:35

because they have appetite and

33:37

they want to be better leaders , or

33:40

they want to be known for something and

33:42

that's a really positive and engaging conversation

33:44

, or because it's remedial

33:47

. The employee survey has come

33:49

in . There's been a harassment claim , the

33:52

clients complained , something's happened and

33:54

you're being sent in to help .

33:56

So whatever

33:58

gets them to you , I always think , but

34:01

yeah , but that's kind of do you know what I mean ?

34:03

You get the highest amount of noise and you get the people with

34:05

appetite or the people you're being sent to . So

34:10

I think , as much as you

34:12

can be part of the talent conversation

34:14

and as much as you can be part of the

34:16

business conversation

34:19

and look

34:21

forward and be ahead . Like

34:23

how is the market moving ? Co-pilot

34:27

, co-pilot's a great example . What

34:29

does chat , gpt and co-pilot mean ? Who's

34:33

gonna get co-pilot in your organization

34:35

? How are you going

34:37

to make that determination ? Do

34:39

you need to account for that in

34:42

your talent and review processes

34:44

or promotion processes ? Do

34:46

you give co-pilot to

34:49

people who are struggling ? More Typically

34:52

, it goes to execs . Are they the ones who

34:54

really need it ? What

34:56

does that mean in terms of the skills you

34:58

know like , do we have to

35:00

think three to five years and do we have to start pivoting

35:03

our people and the skills

35:05

? What does that mean for the people

35:07

who are impacted ? How can we manage

35:09

that gracefully ? How can

35:11

we provide opportunities

35:14

for those people to pivot and be at the forefront

35:16

of new technologies

35:18

and new ways of working ? And

35:21

I think for me , if you can be

35:24

part of those conversations and

35:26

be contributing forward

35:28

thinking , it's better than

35:31

the reactive stuff where you're cleaning

35:33

up mess . Yeah .

35:37

Yeah , completely , completely

35:39

. What advice

35:41

do you have for people who would like to

35:43

move their career into inclusion

35:46

and diversity ?

35:48

Yeah , look

35:52

, it is really interesting . I think give yourself

35:54

time to get up to speed . Live

35:58

experience is incredibly valuable

36:00

, and you need other business

36:02

skills . You need to be able to influence

36:04

. You need to be able to understand

36:07

the business . You need to be able to talk to leaders

36:09

about things that are important to the leaders

36:11

. You need to have really

36:13

good relationships with other

36:15

parts of the business . That is how you will get your

36:17

work done . You are often

36:19

going to be a very small team , either a

36:21

relatively senior

36:24

person as a team of one , or you might

36:26

have a small team

36:28

who are in different locations , depending

36:30

on your role , but you will get the

36:32

bulk of your work done through others . So

36:35

the relationships with your HR

36:37

directors , your relationships with the talent

36:39

process and the other people in HR

36:41

, the relationships with the people

36:43

who the COOs , the

36:45

people who control the business agendas how

36:48

do you get on those agendas to raise a

36:50

topic or to you

36:52

know how they are

36:54

really important ? So think about all of

36:56

that . There is a wealth

36:58

of information out there . It is open

37:00

source , it is free . There

37:02

is a good 40 years worth of history there

37:05

. This is not new work

37:07

. Take

37:09

some time . Go through that Don't

37:12

accept all of that at face value . Challenge

37:15

that , bring a different perspective . You

37:19

know I was very unpopular very

37:21

early in my career . I kind

37:23

of said you know ? So it is pretty clear to me that unconscious

37:25

bias training doesn't work right . We are going

37:27

back 10 or 15 years and

37:29

there was just this shocked intake of breath . What

37:32

do you mean ? Well , there is 30

37:34

years worth of history and several billions

37:37

of dollars invested in this space and

37:39

no progress . You

37:42

know like what other industry

37:44

would do that , what other industry would perpetuate

37:46

? You know that

37:50

type of investment and

37:52

when you have that conversation with people

37:55

in our practice

37:57

who have

37:59

built a livelihood on that , who are deeply

38:01

passionate about the work , who

38:03

really feel that this is a way to create

38:07

change , that is very confronting

38:09

. See , I am not a pop , I am not . I

38:11

am very controversial . I am

38:13

the DDS candidate , I am the tricky one , but

38:16

you kind of go there is 30

38:19

, 40 years worth of evidence that it doesn't work

38:21

. We

38:24

might need to try something different or something new . What do you reckon

38:26

Could you give that a whirl ?

38:30

Anyway , Do

38:33

you know , the only time I have had success with

38:35

unconscious bias ? Training is

38:38

usually in a one-on-one

38:40

and it is not training , it is a one-on-one conversation

38:43

about what is going

38:45

on with them . And it has been often with women

38:47

who are struggling , who have

38:50

been approached about a role , the next

38:52

step in their career , and they are

38:55

saying I am not ready , despite all

38:58

the evidence to the contrary . And

39:01

we start talking about

39:03

are you scared ? Do you think you will fail

39:05

? And yes , yes . And then , if

39:09

I can take the conversation to all

39:11

our brains , we

39:13

hear about unconscious bias all the time , but our

39:16

brains are trying to keep us safe . And

39:18

that was great when we were

39:21

out on the savannah and lions

39:23

and tigers were trying to eat

39:25

us . But we are not in

39:27

that world anymore , but we still have our brains

39:30

doing that . So

39:33

you might be scared , but let's talk

39:35

that through , about some of the things that

39:37

could happen and how we could mitigate those . And

39:40

, by the way , what else is your brain doing ? What

39:42

other things

39:44

is it telling you ? That might not be true

39:47

, and so it is usually

39:49

when I do that kind of one-on-one stuff

39:51

that you can get people to go oh

39:53

, what else am I doing

39:55

?

39:57

How is my ?

39:58

leadership , then impacting other people .

40:01

Yeah , it's really interesting . It's

40:04

really interesting .

40:07

So what are you looking forward to

40:09

next Katrina ? What are you optimistic

40:12

about in this work ?

40:14

I'm really optimistic because I think there's a bit

40:16

of a sea change . So I think I

40:19

look at some . I look at Lilah Zing

40:21

and some you know

40:23

global commentators and I think there

40:25

is yeah , I think

40:27

there is a real mood of change in

40:30

terms of embracing the new

40:32

and embracing

40:35

a different way of doing this work . I

40:37

think for folks

40:39

who might be in IND

40:42

within the Americas , it's

40:45

a really difficult place at the moment and

40:48

I think that's a different conversation , yeah

40:50

, but I think what I am excited

40:53

about in terms of IND

40:55

broadly is

40:57

that we as a profession

41:00

seem to be open to a different way of

41:02

doing things . We

41:04

seem to be moving away from someone

41:06

called the cupcakes and performance

41:09

or you know flags and you know .

41:10

Cupcakes and flowers . Oh yeah , no , it

41:13

is cupcakes and flags , isn't it ? Yeah , yeah

41:15

, flags and something else .

41:16

So and into the well , what are we going

41:18

to do ? That's different , that's going to change and make

41:20

impact . So I'm

41:23

really excited for that conversation and

41:26

, at the same time , I'm mindful

41:28

that for colleagues and folks

41:31

who are doing this work in the US

41:33

at the moment , it's a really difficult time

41:35

, and how

41:37

we can support them is

41:39

important .

41:41

Yeah , thank you

41:43

so much , katrina . I

41:46

have so enjoyed speaking with you

41:48

and I would say

41:50

you're one of the wisest and smartest people

41:53

in diversity and inclusion at the moment . Well

41:57

, that's a very generous .

41:59

Thank you very much . I'm not sure I'm

42:01

not sure my shot that that's an

42:03

accurate mental , but thank you for

42:05

this intimate that's lovely .

42:08

No , thank you so much Thank

42:11

you Lisa .