0:00

While many kids are making their holiday

0:02

wish lists, the Patience and Nationwide Children's

0:04

Hospital or simply wishing they could be

0:06

home, but you have the power to

0:08

make their stay a little brighter. The

0:10

moment you make a donation, the butterflies

0:13

on the lawn at Nationwide Children's light

0:15

up for our patience to see. And

0:17

that gift brings joy, funds, research

0:20

and the world's finest care. Please.

0:23

Light of the Lawn. Light

0:25

up a life Give now

0:28

at Nationwide Children's.org/gaffe. Slow.

0:30

And steady may work in

0:32

story books, but in the

0:34

real year old, Buckeye Express

0:36

Logistic Services will win every

0:38

race a Buckeye Express. We

0:40

offer time sensitive transportation for

0:42

manufacturing and manufacturing suppliers. We

0:44

thrive on solving challenging logistics

0:46

issues on short notice when

0:48

time is critical. whether your

0:51

shipment is larger small, call

0:53

us at six one four,

0:55

to seven to sixty seven

0:57

thirty. But Guy Express Logistic

0:59

Services, you're expedited Transportation. Supplier.

1:02

On. The sixteenth of March, Nineteen

1:04

Seventy eight, Christian Democrat Party leader

1:07

Aldo Moro, was on his way

1:09

to sign a document that would

1:12

be known as the Com

1:14

Promise to Storycorps, the historical

1:16

compromise in which the Communist

1:18

Party, which had great success at

1:20

the recent elections. Would. Finally

1:22

be given a place at the table.

1:25

Aldo. Moro never made it. In

1:28

a matter of minutes, he was

1:30

kidnapped and his five bodyguards were

1:32

killed in a highly precise military

1:34

style operation. The.

1:37

Kidnapping was claimed by the far

1:39

left terrorist organization The but he

1:41

got it also the Red Brigades

1:43

although from the very first moment.

1:46

Many. Suspected the involvement of

1:48

Italian security agencies. The Italian

1:50

government. Vatican. Agencies and

1:52

even the Cia. What?

1:55

followed were fifty five days in

1:57

which the nation waited with bated

1:59

breath There

2:02

were over 72,000 roadblocks set up, almost 38,000 home

2:04

searches, almost 6.5 million people

2:13

were involved in the search, including

2:15

civilians and thousands of police. Almost

2:19

3.4 million cars were searched.

2:22

Not a trace of Mora was found as he

2:24

was held prisoner in the heart of Rome. Finally,

2:27

on the 9th of May 1978, his

2:30

body was found in an old Renault

2:32

4, halfway between the

2:34

Communist Party headquarters and the

2:36

Christian Democrats. In

2:39

his latest book, traveller, journalist

2:41

and author Simon Gaugh brings

2:45

together in-depth factual research with

2:48

an intelligent fictional reconstruction in

2:50

his conspiracy thriller, White

2:52

Suicide. Simon

2:55

is an author of travel books and

2:57

the children's book Pushkin the Polar Bear,

3:00

as well as the former owner

3:02

of the Notting Hill travel bookshop

3:04

of Cinematic Falls. Simon

3:06

was kind enough to come on the History

3:08

of Italy podcast to tell us about his

3:11

book and to talk about the Mora affair.

3:29

So Simon, thank you very much for coming

3:32

on the podcast. Well,

3:34

thank you very much, Mike, for inviting me. It's

3:37

a great pleasure to have you. So

3:39

you spoke of the Mora affair as

3:41

Italy's, and maybe Europe's, JFK moment. Can

3:44

you explain the importance of the affair in a

3:46

little bit more detail? Effectively,

3:48

Italy had been a combustible

3:51

place since, well, 1943, which

3:53

is when the first republic

3:55

was declared, Right

3:58

up to 1998. Oh

4:00

wow, Ninety five at it with the

4:03

end of the First Republic and they

4:05

had a total of sixty six government

4:07

inactive search every. Six. To nine

4:09

months you have a new gotten. And

4:11

it lasts from. Effectively.

4:14

A sense of position bit center left

4:16

to censor right with the dissension that

4:18

you the when for the north of

4:20

it's the right way that south than

4:23

the old Italian at age of. Rome.

4:26

Africa begin south of Red Suit.

4:28

He did have to control. You

4:31

had the in terror, credible poverty south

4:33

and you've had the wealth of the

4:36

doors so there was always going to

4:38

be some form of problem. Aldo

4:41

Moro became. A

4:43

centrist centrists left politician that understood

4:46

that in order in order for

4:48

things to really continue, they needed

4:50

to at have an arrangement with

4:52

the Communist Party. In the last

4:55

election process, Morris kidnapped Italian Communist

4:57

Party Game Thirty four Point Four

4:59

said the popular vote. Like it

5:02

or not, That is more

5:04

than a protest vote. And.

5:06

They were entitled this are they were

5:08

concerned undersized morrow and other politicians with

5:10

concern a seat at the table. Enter

5:14

into the situation the

5:16

Americans and don't forget

5:19

a study the Nato

5:21

country. First. Line

5:23

Nato country and the concept of heavy

5:25

and Italian. Communist.

5:28

Who. Was paid by. Moscow.

5:31

They the subsidized by Moscow. The top

5:33

party was funded by Moscow sitting at

5:35

a cabinet table. Was. Incomprehensible.

5:39

To essentially a linear contracts is

5:41

America. Is is

5:43

left or right. There is

5:45

no parliament of. Like

5:48

minds time to move in one

5:50

direction and the Coalition doesn't exist.

5:52

And we're witnessing that today. Yes,

5:54

space on. A. vestige they

5:56

are there is talk of a third

5:58

party bunning than that all

6:01

that will do is just blow everything

6:03

up. America is two dimensional. Italy was

6:05

and remains three dimensional in that regard.

6:08

The entry of the Americans and the

6:11

votes of the Communist

6:13

Party shifted the entire dynamic. It

6:16

bought the communists again

6:18

more to the fore, it bought the

6:20

riots more to the fore, in

6:23

the same way that John Kennedy and also his

6:25

brother Robert to a degree could

6:27

be described as centrist in terms

6:29

of Democrats. They both had leftist

6:32

slight lean. Not leftist as we would see

6:34

it in Europe, but they were sensor left

6:36

politicians. Yeah, as far left as you could

6:38

go in America, let's say, without going to

6:40

the front. Correct, they were as far left.

6:44

And I posit that a

6:47

combination of, I can back

6:49

some of this up, if not most of it,

6:52

that John Kennedy was effectively,

6:56

I maintain he was killed by the match, who

6:58

were in turn in league with the CIA. We

7:01

can go into that with another question as to state

7:05

sponsored sponsorship from the

7:07

CIA. I mean, I have a list,

7:09

I've prepared a list for me of

7:11

how many state sponsored assassinations the CIA

7:13

have been involved in, go back from

7:15

1952. And

7:18

I can take you right up to 1994. Eric,

7:22

that was my idea. And

7:24

my view was also reinforced by the fact when

7:27

Robert Kennedy was killed. The

7:29

two weren't joined, but

7:32

a famous dynasty was extinguished. And

7:35

with Morrow's assassination, and

7:39

that was 54 days after he was kidnapped.

7:41

I repeat, it's axiomatic

7:44

that anything that happens

7:46

with precision, timing,

7:49

and everything that went into the Morrow kidnapped,

7:53

it is not of Italian origin. The

7:55

source of this ragtag brigade of terrorists Was

7:57

that it's the rib brigade. out

8:00

a kidnap where 91 bullets have fired

8:02

off and not one of

8:04

them hits Mora and yet executes

8:07

his five man bodyguard. And

8:09

then everything happened in 90 seconds.

8:11

I mean, this is this is effectively impossible

8:13

to believe. Yeah, by people who had no

8:16

real training with with modern weapons as well.

8:18

Yeah, not at all. Mora

8:20

was not one bullet. There was one ricochet

8:23

that grazed his tie. And

8:25

that was it. And it was all

8:27

over in 90 seconds. The

8:30

shooting was marksmanship like it's

8:33

impossible. So

8:35

you mentioned the CIA there, Simon, and at a

8:37

certain point in the book, there's this lovely dialogue

8:39

between I don't want to talk, you know, I

8:41

don't want to reveal too much. So

8:43

there is a CIA agent in the book, and then we'll

8:45

stop there. And he has a

8:47

conversation with another character. And again, I don't want

8:49

to mention this character because it's all they're all

8:52

things that come out as you read the book.

8:54

But at some point, they say,

8:56

coincidences only happen in Italy, which I

8:58

thought was a beautiful line in the

9:01

book. And as an Italian, I

9:03

understood that immediately. I knew exactly what you meant.

9:05

But could you maybe explain that a little bit

9:07

more for our non Italian listeners? Yeah,

9:10

I'd like it. It

9:13

was a very good question. You posed

9:15

and I'm actually trying to find my notes on

9:17

it. I see my original notes on

9:19

it. It's a really good question. And thank you. And

9:21

it goes very much to the heart of the book.

9:24

Italians are not, yes,

9:27

I am going to generalize it. Italians

9:29

are very fatalistic. And

9:31

the entire concept of coincidences

9:33

only happen in Italy. You'll

9:36

find there's some other use of the word

9:38

coincidences in the book and especially said by

9:40

I can use the word

9:43

our hero. He often

9:45

says that as a Sicilian,

9:47

he's always wary of coincidences

9:50

and whatever follows in

9:52

the wake of a coincidence. This

9:54

comes essentially from the Italians view

9:57

that they're all fatalists. It's

10:00

all been planned. There

10:04

is no, whatever we do as

10:06

a nation isn't really going

10:08

to change what the

10:10

gods have pre-planned for us. So

10:14

whatever happens is, well,

10:17

not of our making, and actually we

10:19

have no real control over it. And

10:22

Italy is a country pregnant with

10:24

coincidences, and it always has been. And

10:27

it is a guiding theme throughout the

10:29

book. I don't know

10:31

if that answers your question as an Italian. What

10:34

would your view be on that part?

10:36

No, I actually agree because as you

10:38

were answering the question, Simon, I was

10:40

thinking how many conversations that I have

10:43

almost on a daily basis about social

10:45

political issues. And they sort

10:47

of end with a deep sigh and the

10:49

sentence, abbe, c'est un etaller. We're in Italy,

10:51

as if there's nothing that can be done

10:53

about the situation. Well,

10:55

in reality there is, but we don't have the sort of –

10:58

and we've tried in the past. Again,

11:01

the years you mentioned in the book, the Anni di

11:03

Pionbo, were sort of a consequence of the 1968 Revolution

11:07

period, let's say. And so there have

11:10

been attempts to try and change the

11:12

course of the Italian ship

11:14

if we want to use this metaphor. The

11:16

early 90s with

11:18

the whole tangentopoly, the investigations into corruptions, et

11:21

cetera. But

11:23

then we still in 2023 have these conversations and

11:26

they end in, oh, dear, well, we're in Italy,

11:28

as if that sort of explained everything away. So

11:30

definitely, yes. I think

11:33

this goes to the moral affair, as to

11:35

why did the Italians then and

11:38

to this day, why are

11:41

they still outraged by what happened? And

11:44

it's because what happened to – if

11:47

they had assassinated Moro there and then

11:50

on that fateful morning, and

11:52

that was that, that would have

11:54

been, as far as they were concerned, semi-acceptable.

11:58

But the 50-foot war, the war is not over. days of

12:00

keeping him under lock and key

12:02

in the centre of Rome. When

12:05

I, you know, an American president

12:07

then Carter, the French

12:09

president, the English prime minister

12:11

Callahan, you could not have

12:13

kept Callahan. Carter

12:15

was destined tied up for 54

12:17

minutes, let alone 54 hours, let

12:20

alone 54 days. And it

12:23

offended the Italian sensibility, it

12:26

became a sense of outrage. Assassinate

12:29

the man, we've been killing our

12:31

Caesars for two and a half thousand years. We

12:34

get that. Nothing new, yeah. Nothing

12:36

new in that. Kidnapping,

12:38

put him on a fake trial and then

12:40

kill him and stick him in the boot

12:43

of an old French car. This

12:45

offended everything about

12:48

Italian sensibility. And

12:50

another element to make you suspect that there

12:53

was somebody else involved rather than just the

12:55

red bouquets, because if it had been just

12:57

the red bouquets, he may, he probably would

12:59

have been found a lot sooner. Completely,

13:02

there are 38,000, let's not forget, 38,000 mixture,

13:04

Carabinieri, Felicia, police, those

13:11

two don't get on anyway, the

13:14

armies looking for him. And

13:18

behind... And civilians, you mentioned in

13:20

the book, civilians also, so volunteers

13:22

looking for him. Moro was

13:24

this love because he

13:26

was somewhat apolitical. He

13:28

moved calmly between the

13:31

centre left, the centre right.

13:34

He was an arch politician

13:37

in that regard, but he did it with

13:39

calm and decor. One of his oldest friends,

13:41

who was his teacher when he

13:43

was at university, became

13:45

the Pope and was the Pope at

13:47

that particular time. He

13:49

was a very loved individual. He

13:52

wasn't the polarising figure, Andrea, after

13:55

you. And he just glided

13:57

through with respect from

14:01

even the communists. Yeah, well, you know,

14:03

they were willing to sit down at the table with him.

14:05

So, I just

14:07

think it outstripped all the fatalistic

14:10

coincidental views that Italians have held dear

14:12

for thousands of years, because

14:15

he was kept alive and effectively poor.

14:18

So you personally, Simon, sort of were in

14:20

the area, let's say, in that period, between

14:23

Malta and Sicily during what are called the

14:25

Anni di Pionbo, the years

14:27

of lead and different kinds

14:29

of left-ring, right-wing terrorism. So what

14:31

drew you? What were you doing

14:33

there in that period? And how

14:36

was your time spent there? And

14:39

also, do you have any particular

14:41

stories or anecdotal memories from that

14:43

time? Yes, I do. Very

14:45

much so. I remember exactly where I was the

14:48

minute I picked up the Times

14:50

of Malta, which was the Days

14:52

of Empire newspaper published every day. It

14:55

was about the only newspaper, and it was in

14:57

English. And I was sitting in a bar called,

14:59

not surprisingly, the Britannia bar, which is by where

15:01

part of the Royal Navy docks were, drinking

15:06

some rather filthy coffee and smoking a cigarette

15:08

at the time. And I read this

15:10

story. And one has to remember that

15:12

in those days, for example, there was no such thing

15:14

as a television in Malta. But

15:17

no one spoke Maltese. And

15:19

there was a broadcasting. And

15:22

Malta was Sicily being 55 miles

15:24

away. Everyone had these very tall

15:26

antennas. And the news stations

15:28

we listened, we watched, and the TV

15:31

we watched was all Italian news. The

15:36

British forces were in the process of

15:38

being kicked out at that time. They

15:40

ultimately were expelled on the 31st of

15:42

March 1979. So

15:46

effectively one year later, Malta

15:48

was in a period of flux. And

15:52

I used to go backwards and forwards to Italy

15:54

a tremendous amount. There was either

15:56

a ferry off to Sicily or I get on

15:59

a cheap flight. to such as they were

16:01

to Rome, there was commute flights there or even

16:03

to Italy, to Northern Italy. In

16:06

order to supplement my meager income, I used

16:08

to buy a Land Rover in true

16:11

stories. Buy a Land Rover in

16:13

Northern England, drive it to Rome. They

16:16

had to think about diesel Land Rover's in Italy,

16:18

drive it to Rome, where I would exchange

16:20

it for an Italian car and quickly drive

16:22

it back. That sounds a lot. Yeah. And

16:25

I would make two or three times the price

16:28

of the Land Rover bought from some dealer and

16:30

primarily some dealers. Don't ask me why.

16:34

And I had a connection in Rome. In

16:37

those days, you could buy insurance by the day. And I

16:40

could afford three or four days insurance to get

16:42

a car from Rome back to the UK. And I'd

16:45

come back to Malta. My father had his sailing boat

16:47

there. And I based myself

16:49

in that part of the central Mediterranean.

16:52

Excellent, excellent. What a literally

16:54

wheeling and dealing is. Effectively. I

16:57

was trying to make, trying to make

16:59

the words of the freelance journalist. And

17:03

I'm sure Mike, that doesn't

17:05

pay terribly well. And

17:07

it was the way supplementing an income.

17:12

It works. Excellent. And it kept

17:14

me in an orbit, that I

17:16

thoroughly enjoyed. And then in all

17:18

that driving, you must have discovered some lovely

17:20

little towns and places all the way. Couldn't

17:22

afford those ways. Okay,

17:24

exactly. So perfect. Yeah. So you

17:27

would have had to go through

17:29

towns and villages and explored France

17:31

and explored Northern Italy. It must

17:33

have been really beautiful. Anyway,

17:35

and so speaking about memories, do you remember where

17:37

you, what you were doing and where you were

17:40

when you heard of the model kidnapping and then

17:42

when you heard of the killing or

17:44

the discovery of the body, let's say? The discovery

17:47

I can't remember precisely where I was. I

17:50

followed it, sorry, the

17:52

entire kidnapping all along. Where

17:56

I was precisely certainly would have been in that

17:59

theatre. but I will

18:01

never forget the photographs and the

18:03

images. And that's why I make

18:05

a very oblique mention in the

18:07

book to Italy had its Zapruder

18:09

moment. The

18:11

photographs of Moro trussed

18:14

like a dog in

18:17

the boot of a Renault 4, a

18:19

very small car riddled

18:22

with bullets, found equidistant between

18:24

the headquarters of a Communist party

18:26

and the Social Democrat party. Was

18:28

it to lay the blame on

18:30

both? To lay the blame. And

18:33

the first that was ever heard in

18:36

Italy was the Communist

18:38

party flag, not the Christian Democrat

18:40

party flag, was lowered to half

18:43

mass. And a few

18:45

smart journalists picked up on that. And

18:47

that's when the news broke,

18:51

effectively. This wasn't where the

18:54

Red Brigades announced victoriously that

18:56

we have killed Moro, he

18:58

is here and there. And

19:01

there was a search at the area. And

19:03

as I repeat, there was this chatty old

19:05

car. The boot

19:07

was lofted open, not a boot as

19:09

a hatchback. And there, trussed up,

19:12

was the person who was without a shadow

19:14

of doubt going to be

19:16

able to form and would have saved

19:19

in Italy at that time that was spintering. Very

19:22

much so. You are, you

19:24

ref, you are, one of the questions you asked me

19:26

was what books, and

19:28

I actually went to my library and

19:30

I assembled a series of the book

19:32

here. And one of the

19:35

books was written the year after, written by

19:37

an American journalist, it's called The Days of

19:39

Rod, Robert Katz.

19:42

And he goes into some great

19:44

detail about the way Moro was

19:48

found. It brought an end to

19:50

an era. It really did. And

19:53

so would you recommend that book as a go to for

19:56

people who want to know more? Yes,

19:59

Robert Katz. Days of Ross. There's

20:02

another great book by a man called Philip Willam

20:05

called the Puppet Masters. It's called the

20:07

Political Use of Terrorism in Italy. It

20:09

sounds sort of a

20:11

rather terrifying fray, rather terrifying,

20:14

but it's actually very good. And

20:16

if anyone's sort of deeper interested in

20:18

in Sicily, it's called God Protect Me

20:21

from My Friend. It's

20:23

the true story of the Sicilian Bandit

20:26

as Salvatore Giuliano. And

20:29

that was written in 1956 by a

20:31

great journalist called Gavin Maxwell, who

20:34

then went on to write another book called The Ten Pains

20:36

of Death, which is also set in the

20:38

west of Sicily, which is

20:40

by far the most impoverished part of the entire

20:42

Republic. And for English readers

20:45

again, Gavin Maxwell then went on to write

20:47

Ring of Bright Water about Taka the Otter.

20:50

So quite how he went from the springboard

20:52

of Salvatore Giuliano to the north of Scotland

20:56

writing a magnificent book about Otters is the

20:58

question still to be answered. Obviously,

21:00

there's a lot we know about the

21:03

Mardo Affair, and there's still quite a

21:05

bit that we don't know to this

21:07

day, and maybe we'll never know. So

21:10

obviously your novel, Simon, is

21:12

a combination of this

21:14

very well researched factual information and

21:16

what has to be a sort

21:19

of reconstruction. So how close to

21:21

the possible truth do you feel

21:23

that your reconstruction is? Okay,

21:27

that's another really good question. Going

21:29

back to your previous question of

21:32

the genesis of this book, and

21:35

I knew where I was when Mardo

21:37

was kidnapped. I can't recall

21:39

exactly when I found him, when he

21:41

was found trussed up in a booth.

21:44

But it was many, many, many years later, I was

21:47

writing an article for I think a

21:49

newspaper at the time, I found myself in

21:51

the west of Sicily. And I've been fascinated by this

21:54

story, and I needed to try and find a

21:56

hook into writing the book. When

21:58

it comes to transportation for your business, low

22:01

quality suppliers can leave you disappointed.

22:03

Here at LCG Logistics, we can

22:05

service all of your logistics needs.

22:07

Servicing 48 states in Canada,

22:09

at LCG Logistics we pride

22:11

ourselves on competitive prices, dedicated

22:13

fleet service, and on-time delivery.

22:16

We are small enough to care and large

22:18

enough to do the job properly. Call us

22:20

at 614-272-4052. LCG Logistics, your

22:26

single source transportation supplier. And

22:29

it was there that I found the hook, and the hook

22:31

very much became my further

22:34

considered belief that

22:36

the CIA were involved. Now,

22:39

let me explain one thing, and I'm sure you're very

22:41

aware of this. There was a

22:44

Masonic Lodge called P2, and

22:46

they were often referred to as a shadow

22:49

government, and they were often referred to

22:51

as a government within a government. They

22:54

were very passionate. And

22:56

at the

22:58

time of Maro's kidnap, members

23:00

of P2 were very

23:02

much involved in the Italian

23:04

government at the time. The three

23:07

heads of the three

23:09

Italian secret services,

23:11

they're MI5, MI6, I'll

23:16

give you the rattle their names off if you need them,

23:18

but Tuesday, this is me, because

23:20

we're all P2 members.

23:25

Again, P2's associations,

23:27

known associations, were with the Mafia, the

23:30

Cosa Nostra, the CIA, and

23:32

NATO had its own version of the

23:34

CIA called Operation Gladion, which

23:37

was based in Warsaw. And

23:39

these three forces were all

23:43

anti-communist, right wing.

23:46

I come back to the manner in which

23:49

the abduction of

23:51

Maro was carried out, the

23:53

fact that it's impossible for the renegades

23:55

to have carried that out as fluently

23:58

as they did. of

24:00

the examples of their

24:03

cack-handedness was they'd

24:05

gone and some three

24:07

of the kidnappers were wearing Alitalia uniforms

24:10

and one of the three

24:13

people had actually gone to a

24:15

store to buy three uniforms and

24:18

that was the first clue that the government got.

24:20

It's not the only clue the government got. So

24:25

P2, ultra right,

24:28

right wing, the

24:30

American government, statements,

24:32

public statements made by George Bush who

24:34

was then running the

24:36

CIA, George H. W. Bush, was then

24:38

running the CIA by pure

24:41

coincidence of course. There

24:44

was no way that an Italian communist

24:46

minister was going to sit at a

24:49

NATO table. It wasn't

24:51

going to happen and the only way to put a

24:53

stop to that was to kill

24:55

the person whose signature was

24:57

required on the document and

25:00

that person was Aldo Morrow and he was

25:02

kidnapped at five past

25:04

nine. On the morning

25:06

he was due to sign that document at

25:08

exactly 10 o'clock in the House of Parliament.

25:11

Just to finish off the P2 thing, it

25:13

was of course disbanded in 1982 and

25:18

it had been a shadow Masonic

25:20

lodge since it had its

25:22

charter withdrawn in 1976. So just prior to the

25:27

Morrow kidnapping, P2

25:29

went completely underground as opposed to

25:31

being underground. And there

25:34

is an awful lot of fact-art

25:37

evidence that P2 were in league

25:39

with, I repeat, both

25:42

the Mafia, the CIA and

25:44

NATO's own security operation called

25:46

Operation Gladio which is based

25:48

in Warsaw. It's

25:51

interesting that you mention this Simon because I

25:53

keep thinking how sometimes

25:56

a bit silly. You see

25:58

these really odd, real... weird

26:00

conspiracy theories around when

26:03

in reality we have so many

26:05

real conspiracies that you can choose

26:07

from without making stuff up like

26:09

the whole P2 model affair really

26:11

but anyway I suppose that's human

26:13

nature as well so. Again

26:17

there was that line I think you

26:19

and I were talking about it's not in the book I don't

26:22

think where Italians have been

26:24

killing their Caesars for over two and a bit

26:26

thousand years I mean it's

26:29

I think there's another line about coincidences

26:31

in in the book again when it

26:34

says coincidences are served after the past

26:36

of course. Yeah conspiracy

26:38

theories and and

26:42

coincidences have been served daily

26:45

in in Italy since Dei no's

26:47

was but

26:50

this is one where it all

26:52

came together because primarily the American

26:54

State Department had similar thoughts this

26:57

Morrow was not to be there. Yeah

26:59

a month before Morrow was kidnapped the

27:01

late Henry Kissinger met with

27:04

and with Morrow and

27:07

with a CIA agent warned

27:09

him the quote is in quotes

27:12

in the book that

27:15

if he carried on doing this there

27:17

would be trouble. Yeah only time that

27:19

Morrow questioned his life

27:21

in politics and according to his widow

27:23

he very much came close

27:26

to quitting. The threat carried

27:29

agency that's no

27:31

pun intended CIA the threat

27:34

carried weight and

27:36

Morrow decided to persevere and one month later

27:38

he was kidnapped. He was kidnapped. A face-to-face

27:40

meeting with Italy's head

27:42

of station Kissinger and Morrow the three

27:44

of them and

27:47

I tend to believe Elinora's late

27:49

Elinora the late Elinora his widow's

27:53

view on that that that meeting took

27:55

place. And

27:57

so speaking of Italian culture

28:00

and the Italian and so on. In the

28:02

novel you do use some

28:04

words and phrases in Italian amongst the

28:06

English including the last, the very

28:08

last phrase of the book which is in Italian.

28:11

So what sort of policy did

28:13

you adopt? I mean when and why did you

28:15

decide to insert the Italian in the book? We

28:19

assume that the characters would be speaking Italian all the

28:21

time obviously with each other except when they were speaking

28:24

with the CIA or maybe the

28:26

CIA spoke Italian as well. I

28:29

think you'll find the CIA would have

28:32

spoken a bit like my

28:34

Italian which is agriculture. My

28:36

Italian is particularly agricultural and

28:39

my future son in law thought he was

28:41

Roman and he was so if there's any

28:44

Italian bloops in there I

28:46

lay that on Ricardo's shoulders.

28:48

There's certain delineations in

28:50

Italian. Italians love their titles

28:53

despite the fact that they're a republic and

28:56

so everybody has a degree

28:58

of a title for an engineer.

29:00

And there are small differentiations in

29:02

terms of rank. So whilst

29:09

that is essentially very Italian so

29:12

I use the titles

29:15

that people are afforded. There's

29:17

a bit where the hero is talking to

29:19

to a prodi and

29:23

such is the nonsense that prodi is speaking

29:25

that he refers to him as signor and

29:28

he says that's title enough

29:30

for him today. You see

29:33

he actually should have been addressed

29:36

correctly. Professor of what? I don't know. Read the

29:38

story and you'll find out. Well

29:47

he did teach at university as well. He

29:49

did. I have a little bit not so much at the time but

29:51

in later life prodi came to be prime

29:59

minister later on and I. I have a little bit

30:01

of a soft spot for a prodigy. So in

30:03

late, I'm not sure. Yeah,

30:05

there's another note. I knew this again, it's in

30:07

the book as well. Italian

30:10

politicians are all given nicknames

30:14

and Moro's nickname

30:17

was translated to

30:19

the proud racehorse.

30:23

Prodigy's nickname was given as the one

30:25

that is in Mortadell. In Mortadell, yeah.

30:30

After the rather tasteless,

30:32

vacuous, unpleasant sausage. Which

30:37

is the American correspondent would be

30:39

Bologna. Yeah, Bologna,

30:41

yes, exactly, Bologna. But the last

30:43

sentence of the book is

30:47

in all in Italian. My

30:49

belief is that it's completely understandable by anyone who

30:51

doesn't need to speak a word of Italian. Because

30:54

it's said in a certain way, and

30:57

in a certain verse. And I

30:59

believe it closes the book out particularly well.

31:01

I mean, the book started in 1944 in

31:03

Sicily and

31:06

it, I won't say. Yeah, the last

31:08

sentence. I'll

31:10

draw it in. Yeah, great.

31:13

Give it away. Okay, and can

31:15

we find Simon Goole in the

31:17

novel somewhere? Maybe, I don't know,

31:19

Joshua Padden, the journalist and writer

31:22

who lives in Malta, or is

31:24

that another coincidence? Well,

31:27

he actually lives in Gozo and it's a

31:29

bit like an island offer. Yeah, Malta island,

31:31

yeah. Yes,

31:33

but you call it Gozzet and the Maltese,

31:35

and vice versa. And they would not be

31:37

happy, I imagine, yeah. No, they would not

31:39

be happy. Gozo

31:41

has always been the centre of all

31:44

smuggling towards Sicily. And I

31:48

think for the sake of complete clarification

31:50

here, Mike

31:53

and I have never met or

31:55

spoken. Joshua Padden is a rabid

31:57

alcoholic. Yeah,

32:00

I'm not insinuating obviously. No, no, of course

32:02

not. Who lives in a bar on

32:06

the island of Gozo. Joshua actually,

32:08

and this could be of some interest

32:10

to your listeners, Joshua

32:12

Padden is based

32:15

on a character who lived in the

32:17

same house, same everything, and

32:19

had the same background in Southeast

32:22

Asia and Vietnam and China. As

32:24

a man called Philip Nicholson, his pen name was

32:27

A.J. Quinell, whose first big

32:29

hits book was called Man on

32:31

Fire. The last movie

32:33

version of it, two were made of it, was

32:35

the one with Denzel Washington. Yeah. And

32:39

Joshua is, Philip is a

32:41

dear friend of mine, and

32:44

Joshua is based on Philip. And

32:46

I think that's why Joshua is one of the

32:49

live characters in the book, because he's

32:51

based on a man whose life

32:53

was larger. Is there a

32:55

little bit, I have the

32:58

hero's penchant for liking to dress

33:00

in an Italian and casual way.

33:04

I don't smoke like the hero, but

33:06

I don't think there's much, there's, I suppose

33:08

there's a smashing of me also in the

33:11

precision in which the way, the

33:14

kind of use the word baddie, the antagonist lives,

33:17

the antagonist is the head of the Vatican,

33:19

IEA, which is

33:22

their version of the CEA called Alessandro

33:24

Cucchi. And

33:26

he dresses in a particular Italian

33:29

and classical simple way. I

33:31

do the same. And also that, that's,

33:33

I mean, as much as you come to hate

33:35

him, which is probably one of the reasons why

33:37

you can understand

33:39

it's such a well-rounded, well-done character,

33:41

because you really hate the guy,

33:43

but he is so, you know,

33:45

well-rounded and so masterfully sort of

33:47

pen character. That's very

33:49

kind of you. I mean,

33:51

there was that line, I think that gives him

33:53

away. He's the only son, and there was a

33:56

comma of an only son. Anyway,

34:01

what was it? With

34:04

rather more pedigree than wealth. Yeah,

34:07

you still come across people like that

34:10

with rather more pedigree than wealth. Especially

34:12

in Italy. So,

34:15

moving slightly away from the main topic of the

34:17

novel, you show sort of a

34:20

good, a very in-depth understanding of

34:22

Italian history in general, mentioning anecdotes

34:26

and stories from ancient Rome. You

34:28

mentioned the Leonardo da Vinci, the

34:30

lost Leonardo da Vinci painting and

34:32

the Battle of Angiri between the

34:34

Republic of Florence and the Republic

34:36

of Milan. So, is there

34:38

any other moment in history, Simon, that

34:40

attracts you, that interests you, and that

34:42

perhaps we can see a Simon-Gull novel

34:44

based in another moment, or would that

34:47

be a little bit more difficult than

34:49

a more, let's say, modern novel? Yes,

34:52

there is. The unification of

34:55

Italy, the Risso di Minto,

35:01

in 1846, from memory, please correct me, Mike, on

35:03

that. 1861. But things started

35:05

to kick off in the 1840s. So, the 1840s are

35:07

an important sort of prequel to the unification. The

35:15

first unification, 1861. Then, obviously, Veneta

35:17

was added in 1866, Rome, 1870. So,

35:20

it was a process that went between 1861 and 1870. I've

35:24

always found, especially the manner in which

35:28

that took place again in Sicily,

35:31

you know, the invasion in Sicily, the

35:33

invasion, wrong word, which informs

35:36

the background of the book, the leopard, which

35:38

is, I had, I

35:40

was asked to do a thing called the

35:43

leopard. I did a thing for Reader's Digest

35:45

on the three books that changed my life.

35:47

And I remember being given the leopard as

35:50

a child, a young boy

35:52

by my late father, where I spent

35:54

an awful lot of time in Sicily,

35:57

especially around the west of Sicily, poor

35:59

Sicily. And I found

36:01

that book quite extraordinary. I'd

36:03

love to set another book in that period. I

36:06

suppose if I have a

36:09

hook at all, which is the conspiracy

36:11

series. And there is no other greater

36:14

conspiracy series. I don't think it's conspiracy.

36:16

I think it's proven fact. It's just

36:18

a matter of Italy finally accepting it.

36:20

Because don't forget Italy still has not

36:22

forgiven. There's

36:25

been no closer to the moral affair.

36:27

Absolutely. To this day,

36:30

there has never been any form

36:34

of closure. Also because despite

36:36

the fact that people were tried and sentenced

36:39

for it, it hasn't closed

36:41

the affair. No,

36:43

not at all. I

36:46

suppose that part, a book set

36:48

in Sicily, but again, I'm in search

36:50

of a hook. Also because Sicily is

36:52

always a minefield, isn't it? It

36:55

is. It's a set of book in Sicily.

36:58

I'm not sure that it, because

37:00

unfortunately, one doesn't get to,

37:02

until you get to the back of the book and

37:04

you've read the book, do

37:06

you learn about

37:09

Lucky Luciano and

37:11

how the Americans and

37:15

this symbiotic relationship between the

37:17

Sicilians, Italians and

37:19

the Americans. In 1943, after 1944, after

37:22

the invasion of Pearl Harbor, the

37:28

Americans were seeking to

37:31

harness for

37:33

Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily, as

37:35

much force as they could. And

37:37

the mafia head, Lucky Luciano was in prison

37:40

at the time in New York, and

37:42

he and his partner, May Alanski,

37:44

were offered, providing they

37:47

could marshal their troops in Sicily,

37:50

and free pardons for all their crimes. And

37:53

there's no doubt about it. Operation Husky was

37:55

so successful, and he lasted six weeks with

37:57

a comparatively small loss of life. for

38:00

five and a half thousand or thereabouts, was

38:02

due in fact to the

38:06

American Mafia's involvement in

38:08

harnessing their forces in Sicily. Yeah, but also in

38:11

the United States, in New York, the

38:13

control they had of the docks. Absolutely.

38:17

And there is no doubt about that,

38:20

that the genesis of that

38:22

sort of Italian American involvement started

38:25

there. And the Americans kept,

38:27

this is the interesting thing, they

38:29

kept their side of the devil's basket

38:31

in 1946. Lucky Luchana was part, it

38:35

was part, he was stuck on

38:37

a boat to Naples, they kept their deal

38:40

and then May Alaski was awarded the Medal

38:42

of Freedom by Truman in

38:44

a private ceremony in the White House in 1946.

38:48

Yeah, May

38:50

Alaski was the money, Lucky

38:52

Luchana was the muscle. And

38:55

between them they ran, they

38:57

were quite open about it, it was called

38:59

the National Crime Syndicate. They weren't

39:01

hiding behind some name,

39:04

they called it the National Crime Syndicate. And

39:06

the Americans kept their end of the deal. But

39:08

if you look at it, 22 years

39:11

after that, as far as they were

39:13

concerned, the Americans, it was partially acceptable

39:15

to go around, kidnap and

39:18

later assassinate Aldo Amaro because he

39:20

threatened to bring communism to

39:22

the dining table. Simon,

39:25

take you off topic, something I know you're

39:28

not crazy about mentioning and talking about. Not

39:30

only are you a well-known journalist, an

39:33

affirmed writer, but also you ran a

39:35

certain bookshop that if anyone is a

39:37

fan of British comedy

39:39

films, and particularly Richard Curtis, though

39:42

the well-known British screenwriter, you have

39:44

a connection there, don't you? Yes,

39:48

I do. I

39:51

hope some of your readers would have heard of

39:53

my bookshop, it was called the Travel Bookshop in

39:55

Notting Hill. And that

39:58

carried on until Amazon. But

40:01

paid to an awful lot of the independent

40:03

bookshops in the United Kingdom, I'm afraid. We

40:06

didn't get broken anyway. We just decided to shut

40:08

the doors in the face of Amazon in

40:11

about 2013, 2014. But

40:13

yes, we were the tech consultants on that

40:15

film. And

40:18

in Notting Hill, and it was our bookshop that

40:20

was used in the film. So

40:22

it was recreated in Shepperson Studios.

40:25

They built the duplicate of it. OK,

40:28

well, speaking of which, excellent

40:30

present, or just for your

40:32

own reading pleasure for our

40:34

listeners, White Suicide by Simon

40:36

Gull. Obviously, the best

40:39

way to go is to buy it in your local

40:41

bookshop at this point. We can't say, although I'd imagine

40:43

they can also find it online. Simon, can you tell

40:45

us a bit where we can find the book and

40:47

when it's out and so on? It's

40:50

out now. It's also out on Kindle. The

40:53

downside of a Kindle is that I'm not

40:55

trying to in any way. It's

40:58

the book itself in hardback has

41:00

maps and papers and it has

41:02

very illuminating maps of Italy. And

41:07

I won't say where the end papers, that'll

41:09

give part of the story away. And

41:11

it is available, obviously through Amazon. And

41:14

if you go to my personal website,

41:16

which is simongaul.com, www.simongaul.com,

41:20

you will find a link where it says buy. And

41:23

on that link, there is, you can buy it

41:25

from an organization of independent private bookshop. which

41:33

is where I like to try and see people with,

41:35

again, no disrespect to Waterstones who've been very supportive of

41:38

the book as have Amazon. Thanks.

41:41

I do think independent bookshops, wherever

41:43

they be in your village, in

41:45

your town, Mike, and

41:48

in my town, we need our independent

41:50

bookshops. And so we

41:53

need Richard Curtis to go into the next

41:55

independent bookshop and come up with another movie.

41:57

Another movie that can save the independent bookshop.

42:01

That is White Suicide by Simon Gore, out

42:03

now. Get it in your local bookshop if

42:05

you can. Simon, thank you so much for

42:07

coming and talking to us. It's been really,

42:09

really interesting. I wish we had a lot

42:11

more time, but that's all for

42:13

now. Thanks again. Mike,

42:16

I can't thank you enough for having me on. And

42:18

again, it's really great to be interviewed by

42:21

someone who knows his subject. Thank you very

42:23

much. It is. Thank you. Greatly

42:26

appreciated. Thank you again, Mike. Well,

42:29

I hope you enjoyed listening to that interview as much

42:31

as I did recording it. If

42:34

you have any further questions or comments on

42:36

what we spoke about, or in general would

42:38

like to get in touch, remember you can

42:40

do so. Hello, at ahistoryofitaly.com. Or

42:43

head over to our website, ahistoryofitaly.com, where

42:45

you can click through to our social media links.

42:48

Or if you want, become a supporter of the show on

42:50

Patreon, where you can have

42:52

access to ad-free episodes and extra content.

42:56

Thank you very much for listening, and until next

42:58

time, adi vedie a history. Oh,

43:25

baby, mama's bringing home the bacon. Whoa,

43:27

take it easy, Judy. The

43:30

Chumba Life is for everybody. So

43:32

go to chumbacasino.com and play over

43:34

100 casino-style games. Join

43:36

today and play for free for your chance to

43:39

redeem some serious prizes. Lucky

43:48

Land Casino asking people what's the

43:50

weirdest place you've gotten lucky? Lucky?

43:53

In line at the deli, I guess? Ah,

43:55

in my dentist's office. More than once, actually.

43:57

Do I have to say? Yes, you do.

43:59

In the car before my kids' PTA meeting.

44:02

Really? Yes! Excuse me,

44:04

what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I

44:06

never win Intel. Well, there you

44:08

have it. You could get lucky anywhere

44:10

playing at luckylandslots.com. Play for free right now.

44:13

Are you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary. Fully reproduced by

44:15

law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for

44:17

details.