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and not reflect the official policy

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or position of the podcast? any

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0:29

welcome to a little bit cause he's a podcast

0:32

about what happens when something that seems

0:34

like a great thing at first goes to the dark

0:36

side and takes you with it i'm

0:38

your host sarah edmondson

0:40

also your host anthony and aka

0:42

nippy sarah and i met on love

0:44

and a quote self help organization that

0:46

turned out to be a mega colts

0:49

called next year heard of it to

0:51

get out of their together on our way

0:53

out without shut down our journey

0:55

as next in whistleblowers as caption detail

0:57

on a doctor series called the bow on h b o

0:59

and also on the front page of a newspaper

1:02

near time said right that he

1:04

heard of it each week a little bit cause a

1:06

we talk with other former cult members and

1:08

whistleblowers plus experts and

1:10

things like cultic abuse and course

1:12

of control

1:13

we also turned the mike over to advocates

1:15

and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering

1:17

from everything from m alums and toxic religion

1:20

to bad romance is that raging narcissist

1:22

there's always i mean to learn about

1:24

the cultivars be sure to subscribe

1:26

to a little bit called the so you don't miss an episode

1:29

find us on instagram and it a little bit cute dot com

1:47

okay nother summer

1:49

bonus episode

1:50

we just we couldn't resist we couldn't

1:52

resist actually truthfully

1:55

we that such a great response from

1:57

the i see this a at six point

1:59

lead

1:59

he bought a paper boy

2:02

move rather than their head iowa

2:04

yeah sorry about that either

2:05

that but what we realized was

2:07

that's it seems like you guys were

2:10

enjoying secure

2:12

yes answer the questions and

2:14

we shall we do it again with again different podcast

2:17

you for your bonus your look present for

2:19

you

2:19

also adding addresses allow the ask me anything

2:21

questions which we're still going to get to but it

2:23

gives you a broader palace for this

2:26

to be sarah and nippy

2:27

i'm

2:30

sure there's nobody be a blow their that are like i really

2:32

was looking to have a broader palette of

2:35

both thera and nippy and nippy have them

2:37

there sipping their t y

2:40

tina

2:41

i'm sitting in ice much how

2:43

it's organic

2:44

farmers market honey or there's a

2:46

there's or demographic

2:47

injury amounts out melt

2:49

guess is it's it's one of

2:52

the i'm gonna do another i guess about health about

2:55

health wellness i think it's gonna be called

2:56

you're probably be the thousands person

2:59

to do

3:00

it's going to be called unsolicited

3:03

advice with sarah edmondson

3:05

and i'm just going give everybody all these people

3:08

i can so gonna start a so

3:10

i can say it like you know

3:12

how i think people should anyway

3:14

so but only the i will say about

3:16

this episode is that there might

3:19

be some repetition in the beginning

3:21

because both sick boy and rachel bernstein

3:23

or next guest asked for

3:26

the elevator pitch of our stories so there may be some

3:28

redundancy there

3:29

okay i mean i think there's enough

3:31

variants in it for people to get a

3:33

lot of the both and they both as distinct

3:35

really good question so as the summer will need to

3:37

bury the memory talk we have a summary

3:39

no discipline but then we like russia and

3:42

and lemonade

3:43

exactly it's wanna hear the broad

3:45

spectrum store every that okay so this week

3:47

we're bringing you another summer bonus courtesy

3:50

of rachel bernstein and her indoctrination

3:52

podcast a weekly show that's all about

3:54

colts manipulators and how to protect

3:57

yourself from systems of control

3:59

the

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can i call her the oh gee called

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podcasts are right she's is a

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flat flat it'd be survivors these

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and point intervention experts

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in various educators to help raise awareness

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about the dangers of narcissism an undue influence

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you can listen to her awesome podcast

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there is like we said the conversation

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in this absurd similar to sick boy he's

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so know exactly because rachel is

4:27

actually a license marriage of them with therapists

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and as over thirty years of experience and

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things like family and relationship counselling helping

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children and parents in need of emotional support

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and coping skills and cult intervention

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the and real acclimation

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readers my chatting with her because she's

4:42

a she's a real hero in our field i've

4:44

i've heard her name many times

4:47

and cross paths different ways in the called space

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but to actually have this type of meaningful chat

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was very souls

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the universe conspiring right sir

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the universe conspired to bring rachel and

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us together she brings a real wisdom

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and and speaking of saw

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pallets rachel has

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one i were going to have around soon to turn

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the tables and is true but your question so let us know

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if you have questions for her

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until then we hope you enjoy the summer

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bonus bonus episode with rates of bernstein

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on her to legit to quit indoctrination

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5:32

i

5:34

am so happy to have

5:36

thera in if the on this show

5:38

i know that you have your own

5:40

show and you told your story

5:43

and sorry have a book

5:45

and use them out there in the world

5:47

letting people know about this what

5:49

i find so interesting and i know we're gonna

5:51

go a lot of different directions that this conversation

5:54

is that while it's become sort of our

5:56

lives in that we talk about it a

5:58

lot

5:59

there's some people

5:59

the take next am is a pill

6:02

that you take for acid reflux and

6:04

dash their association which i understand

6:07

because it is and that sort of how it is

6:09

to be in this world that it's sort of the sub

6:11

culture of the world but i wanted

6:13

first to start with not

6:15

only thanking you for what you doing the having

6:17

you have you chance to introduce yourselves

6:20

to people who haven't really gotten to

6:22

know you on this personal level

6:24

and i personal appreciate be able to have you

6:26

on the show and i know as somewhere i will be on

6:28

yours as well so sarah you want to introduce

6:31

yourself that be great thank yourself for having as

6:33

the like this is something that

6:35

the full circle in i think when we decide

6:37

to have a podcast we didn't really look to see

6:40

what other podcast were already out there making

6:42

cult content and and we sound you afterwards

6:45

and there's obviously so much overlap and

6:47

it's so great to be aligned with somebody

6:49

who's so passionate about similar things

6:51

so thank you for having us enough such a

6:53

long story a try to condense it until little

6:55

an elevator pitch slash sound bite the

6:57

long and short of it is that remained coover

7:00

born and raised there and i

7:02

was an aspiring actress in my twenties child

7:05

of two parents who in the mental health profession

7:07

and i was at it's have my life and it's looking

7:10

for more more meaning more community

7:12

more for some and i didn't really see like acting was

7:15

the saying that was my necessarily my purpose

7:17

always felt that i like my parents

7:20

were taught me and makes the world a better place

7:22

have a legacy of the things that i think are

7:24

important and i happen

7:26

to meet a filmmaker mark for sending

7:28

me what the bleep do we know who introduced me to a program

7:31

i wanted to work with him the program sounded amazing

7:34

it was all about humanitarians learning

7:36

to i can make the world a better place

7:39

by evolving our awareness

7:41

in our consciousness and working through

7:43

our patterns and are quote but air

7:45

quotes on this are shit so that we can

7:47

the optimal in the world and

7:49

it seems amazing and i'd never

7:52

researched said i jumped in i took a five

7:54

day training which i had many red

7:56

flags about which i didn't know red flags the time

7:58

and i ignore them

7:59

when did that for about twelve years and

8:03

, incredible experiences some

8:05

really wonderful learning as an

8:08

incredible adventure and say say

8:10

also lot of things that i didn't understand

8:13

as looking at over the years intel things got

8:16

things bad

8:18

ends when ah what

8:20

way one one of my incredible adventures

8:22

to to backtrack for second meeting my husband's

8:25

is here with us today nippy and

8:27

we had today nippy the man help

8:29

me kind of reconnect with who

8:31

i am and my values or that separate

8:33

from the organization at that point they tried draw

8:36

me and further and how we get more committed

8:38

which eventually led to the leader

8:40

starting a secret organization

8:42

for women were he was branding

8:45

women with his initials and that's

8:48

ultimately it wasn't what woke me

8:50

up it was realizing that at the symbol

8:52

was not what i've been told it was but was his back

8:54

to the initials oh they think they're very very

8:56

complicated hard to explain but the

8:58

essence of it is that it woke us up nippy

9:01

and i decided to leave eventually to become whistleblowers

9:03

go on the cover of a new york times of f

9:05

b i got involved from that point and now the leaders

9:07

and jail for hundred and twenty years as the best

9:10

summary i can i can say oh that's

9:12

been here and there you know

9:14

when someone said that he was in

9:16

the for hundred and twenty years i members to spontaneously

9:18

saying couldn't the happened to a nicer guy he

9:21

also has five years probation oh five

9:23

upsets my favorite part of the censored

9:25

i love that so after he's

9:28

too bad two hundred years older so that

9:30

he gets five years purvis that's good that will

9:32

be gerda i wanted to says i'm sorry

9:34

interview introduce yourself there is something

9:36

so interesting about nothing up on

9:38

the red flags that i want to make sure that we talk

9:40

about my nowhere else to dinner focusing

9:42

on being a couple within

9:45

a group like this is something i haven't

9:47

talked a lot about on this so yeah them

9:49

people haven't had a chance to talk about but how

9:52

how couples are treated and how couples are kind

9:54

of sometimes separated emotionally

9:57

or physically or in terms of the emphasis

9:59

has to each other

9:59

in lean on each other and i think sometimes

10:02

it's because they strengthen each other

10:04

to make a change so yeah i

10:06

definitely want to talk about that and also in

10:08

terms of being parents and the education

10:10

that you want to make sure your kids have because

10:12

of your experiences the other thing

10:14

too is in terms of the red flag

10:16

because i've now been doing this while

10:19

there are times that i will hear something and

10:21

and note than some very professional but i just felt

10:23

ill i haven't you and

10:26

the ill i remember learning about v

10:28

weeks and this whole you know celebration

10:31

the honor of vanguard of the leader

10:32

in a that wow i can't

10:35

imagine i don't even like when people

10:37

sing happy birthday to me in a restaurant

10:39

i don't like all eyes on the bus to have a whole week

10:41

for my birthday wow that was an

10:43

ill to me and in other lot

10:46

of these moments where you think someone's is happy

10:48

facebook need

10:50

a he kind of pets and you just

10:52

have to keep filling the coffers of

10:54

their ego over and over again and it's

10:57

it's fascinating to me and so sad

10:59

and sports first

11:00

many this is the personality the have to deal

11:03

with and sometimes they've been those you for the first

11:05

time when they get involved in a group like this

11:07

that they don't know what they're dealing with

11:09

that i should have been a red flag for sure

11:11

well i was also sold

11:13

as a corporate retreat he he he he

11:16

yeah can i share something with where we interviewed

11:18

may introduce a big movie where we just

11:20

talking about that i like when we were in it

11:23

had you said that to us

11:25

my defense would have been what we were told

11:27

witches oh keep didn't even ask for this

11:29

we decided to do this because he's in

11:31

run and see at his receive guests his

11:33

only requests for his birthday that people are kind

11:35

to each other and people live joyfully

11:37

and why not do that for ten days

11:39

versus one day for his birthday so this is our

11:42

gift to him he was he never has

11:44

because he's so humble brag with a grain

11:46

of like this it would be pitched as

11:48

like this are corporate three where we give him a gas

11:50

to say thank you for what he's given us right so

11:52

that's it's even even grocer than you thought

11:55

i think it was sexually for him

11:57

interesting okay smack

11:59

said

11:59

yeah might my take on

12:01

they it very often happens

12:04

and then for for nip is i guess i would like

12:06

to actually introduced as effective as well

12:08

my sister says okay well

12:10

, but anyway what

12:12

i do think is interesting to is

12:14

that if he can have things turned around

12:17

where you think it's for people's benefit for

12:19

if he can have things turned around where you think it was

12:21

your decision then a lot

12:23

of people get away with a lot of thing if

12:25

they can riff frame it as being

12:27

quite the opposite being terms of intention and

12:29

whose idea it was and whose it's for

12:32

who so that's true

12:34

and

12:35

the social

12:36

the grounds as you and politics that's the

12:38

government that's true in cults june

12:40

relationships actually it's just

12:42

see no cause don't invent these things

12:44

you they utilize that already being years

12:47

but it is true as he couldn't make people

12:49

feel like they're in this sort of benevolent

12:51

way wanting to give back or wanting to give

12:54

then they won't see

12:55

the people tend to curb your skepticism

12:57

at that point

12:58

right and and people who are

13:00

good at this who have hone their skills

13:03

will know what language to use to offer

13:05

you so that that's your interpretation

13:07

and then you're open to doing it and thinking it's perfectly

13:10

innocent and times

13:11

have you to do it if you are

13:13

a soap and nippy insidious isn't

13:15

so it's anthony nippert

13:18

and name's nippert is my mom's maiden

13:20

name is nippert with a t at the end

13:22

am a parent so be the common

13:24

nippy jury's still out on that my

13:28

journey into this whole thing was thing

13:30

had i had of former girlfriend

13:32

i ran into it apart and york and she told me but

13:35

i literally said to her i'm doing for after

13:37

a year she just like the city year she

13:39

knew she didn't see new the meat hooks

13:41

for me to they always had books on leaders and

13:43

and i play quarterback in college as i was

13:45

reading about how to be the best and add

13:47

books and can the martyrs or t analyst are

13:49

so i think she saw me as a good

13:51

candidate for one be bettered

13:54

ensues right me and finally she

13:56

told me that her parents are done it and an appearance and cells

13:58

fifteen isoft us how bad could

14:00

be you know it's funny

14:02

it's read i read goodbyes getting bill

14:04

bennett was called the death of outrage and who's

14:07

really honing in on how people

14:09

just didn't have a problem with docklands behavior member

14:11

those days sets and so

14:13

i was just see how can a young and also you

14:15

know what this this is actually the point and so

14:18

i had kind of fertile ground had those kind of

14:20

things going on said was a good cocktail of

14:22

like hey let's see for something else out there

14:24

now i went there and was immediately

14:27

turned off by vanguard sashes and bowing

14:29

and those are always things i never really coming

14:31

over but was kind of like that

14:33

something about your organization i don't like but as

14:36

a lot of good here and i stayed involve of the organization

14:38

from two thousand and one or two thousand three

14:40

peripherally those going back from new york

14:42

city to albany it's a classes on weekends

14:45

and finally i just kind of felt like there's no

14:47

infrastructure for these ideas to catch on

14:49

his know in here this really strong leader to

14:51

get a going in itself kind of like a

14:53

rag tag organization i decided

14:55

to not be a coaching more but i was

14:57

still friends with like people in the organization

15:00

it wasn't a volatile break up

15:02

man i would

15:03

maybe

15:04

to some people prefer you're in there and they

15:06

took a training again early two thousand and five

15:09

i wasn't vulgarization artistic a training

15:11

like anyone would have like a goals

15:13

program and then mark for sentencing

15:15

filmmaker came out to l a to those living

15:17

in l a or a cast and something

15:19

affairs he came out and said

15:21

that he has some project footwork on they

15:24

salumi back to new york look

15:26

my car pay for everything pay for my housing

15:29

for a while to go shoot this film is of

15:31

never have to be found that a helicopter yeah

15:34

there's a whole preproduction royal on the helicopter

15:36

flew down the hudson what to bergdorf goodman

15:39

the preproduction for a suit wardrobe

15:41

all as deciding really have any reason to

15:43

not think it was gonna happen so anyway

15:45

these are all the things that kind of like got

15:47

me back into the organization

15:49

now understand i came back in the

15:51

organization still was some arms

15:54

weights problems with not

15:57

to the point where i was in for the whole thing out

15:59

also was somewhat eating my words

16:01

because i think the organization was grow in the

16:03

three years at a grown considerably going to mexico

16:06

city monterrey and so in

16:08

had a lot more credible people

16:11

and people who are out in the world doing things

16:13

so i was kind of impressed with the

16:15

growth has happened in three years that i was gone

16:17

enjoying this merges two worlds

16:19

person profession development and had

16:21

a lot of actors and directors in this i thought wow

16:23

this this things actually work mrs

16:26

a train them i want to get back on and

16:28

slowly over time the

16:30

film didn't happen i got involved in new york

16:32

city center nicer running math mouse button

16:34

two thousand and nine two thousand and ten so

16:36

there was a lot of positive things but i reason

16:39

i say that i had those boundaries of first as

16:41

i think that's one of the things that allowed sarah

16:43

nice to kind of have a

16:45

wall around us cuz i think

16:47

i can he communicated and a certain

16:50

degree to the inner circle

16:52

of like leaving the fuck alone on

16:54

a subtext kind of things and i think

16:56

that was when the things are allowed us to make

16:59

the pivot when we did when the deuce was it washed

17:01

up in our personalize and so

17:03

while there had been some rumblings about cheese

17:06

behavior in the past all those things

17:08

became true once i experienced it was

17:10

a pretty easy pivot for us to leave

17:12

when that happened and everything is documented

17:14

subsequently

17:15

so interesting in a ring have some

17:18

interesting points about wet lead

17:20

someone into an organisation what

17:22

causes them to stay and often

17:24

it it it is the connection

17:26

to people in the idea is that you like

17:29

that you things are gonna be practically

17:31

useful people also like to be challenge

17:34

and see get into this mode

17:36

of wanting to learn and wanting to so

17:38

what you've learned the idea though that

17:40

from the start thing bothered you is

17:42

really important and that you were able to specify

17:45

to a certain degree the things like

17:48

that vanguard and you said

17:50

the the sauces and the ballet so

17:53

the sauces are so interesting because

17:55

it is this way of needing to prove yourself

17:57

in a public way and moving up

17:59

the levels and what i've noticed route

18:02

you know cause us are called they're always levels and

18:04

then when you reach the top of the level

18:06

than they add more or less than

18:08

there's an inner circle then there's another

18:11

groups and there is something else useless to

18:13

achieve our be chosen for or you become

18:15

an instructor you never done

18:17

he can't graduate right and if you graduate

18:19

you graduate to the next level or the next thing they

18:21

have in store for you and what's so interesting

18:23

to i think a lot of people don't realize how

18:26

cultury often usually organized

18:28

to a point that there is some structure

18:30

but they also created as they go and

18:33

so there's a disorganization to

18:35

it where you can kind of feel

18:37

most the madison he says he concedes

18:39

that of the leaders of thinking okay what can we can parks

18:42

next and to feel in

18:44

retrospect

18:45

the you're sort of hard

18:46

the experiment never feels

18:48

good but i wonder in those

18:50

moments did you feel

18:53

like with vanguard with with

18:55

this ourselves with the bowing that

18:58

in this is the social psychological peace

19:00

did you feel like you couldn't say that

19:02

it bother you or that it was it was wrong

19:04

of you'd have be bothered by

19:06

it because others see other people didn't seem

19:09

to be so i think that next

19:11

cm and the leadership specifically kids and

19:13

nancy very brilliantly

19:15

as a that an airport preempted

19:17

people right from the beginning to

19:19

say like on day one of our five day

19:22

you know your successful people

19:24

double binding right i'll successful people know

19:26

that they have areas to grow correct yes

19:28

you already agreed era here to grow and

19:31

when you're facing those areas me uncomfortable

19:33

the truth in that like when you hit up against your shit

19:35

and said comfortable who works for it so when we when you're

19:37

uncomfortable it means or something they're

19:39

inside the look at like you see the sashes

19:42

for example they would say often people

19:44

with authority issues aren't comfortable with that

19:46

because of whatever happened in their childhood and they

19:48

see somebody wearing a sash is a higher rank and they

19:50

still got really don't want to wear a sash was your to work

19:52

on that is this that piece of fabric it bother

19:54

you to invest in affects you and your life

19:57

oh wise right

19:59

this over

19:59

go again when where the fuck is ah she then

20:02

i'm like i have an issue

20:04

for him

20:05

if i had clarity now who say something

20:07

like i'm not going to enter this program

20:09

we are in authority over me and i don't get

20:12

to trust my own instinct a my own inner voice

20:14

and i now get everything over to you that's a problem

20:16

and that's a sign of a cult hit by like a half

20:19

hour know what i'm looking at but then i'm like oh

20:22

shit like shit have ice and so many

20:24

of the things are if you don't want to call sheath

20:26

vanguard than like you're a suppresses

20:29

you don't want to honor what he built that

20:31

like not calling it why would you call a doctor doctor

20:33

he's earned the doctor title why would you call

20:35

it the judge judge or sir sargent

20:38

or whatever it that's a title that they've earned this

20:40

is what he does and why when you call him that if you

20:42

don't then

20:43

there betray came in obedience

20:45

yeah so people who weren't obedient

20:47

got weeded out and what i learned what myself

20:50

through this whole thing is that i'm outwardly

20:52

obedience i want to be a good girl boys

20:54

wanted to be a good girl when i get the gold star want

20:56

to be special i loved the ranks because

20:58

i got to like you know that brownies

21:01

he doesn't want to get that next i wanted

21:03

to special outfit a lot of that acknowledgement but

21:05

inside

21:06

i was like fuck that a lot

21:08

to align thing

21:09

and i'm everyone everyone was we

21:11

were all like when we were overtly

21:14

you will you are apparently facade about things

21:16

and then by the cause you of defiance

21:18

right the guess let me try

21:20

yeah the nippy with only the

21:22

fired the fired controlling like if i

21:24

tried to express anything about any

21:27

thing that i don't like it was me being controlling

21:29

for

21:29

there's also different to because you are a

21:31

center owner and i wasn't so they would hold

21:33

like promotions over me and

21:35

be like the you need worked as an adult factor

21:39

my as he was cut my day i was amazing

21:41

the sarah was making money and she had a center

21:44

owner so here they can leverage things

21:46

over sarah defining they can for me i'm

21:48

in i just didn't have that kind of by

21:50

and and it was just different i'm

21:53

not saying in a mine doctrination

21:55

and the level of indoctrination the i was

21:57

susceptible to was is different now

21:59

had i been making money as a pool probably

22:01

out about it heads are the more because out of and

22:03

fighting to keep the money more and my defiance

22:06

i never felt good putting certain

22:09

aspects of myself in the back seat

22:12

and , letting it go because we were

22:14

a comforting about standing up for sure and

22:16

if it wasn't going on going the company and i saw

22:19

it i saw let it goes i was in sarah's

22:21

year and mark percent this year

22:23

all the time going that's not fucking right

22:25

that's not rise as of right and i can have

22:27

the liberty to do it

22:57

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the

25:36

figured out also who you could talk to lead

25:38

them one of the biggest challenges of the i couldn't talk to

25:40

anyone down line and one below me

25:42

in ranked because of bad leadership

25:45

you know and i could i went about get gas left

25:47

except with may be like march with marxists

25:49

and to and i could speak pretty openly

25:52

but with other people other leadership's other

25:54

like coaches or even nancy like if he said anything

25:56

you would be like why do you feel the need to say that right

25:58

now you seem react why don't you

26:00

journal on that or go get knee am and then

26:02

we can discuss it right okay so

26:05

so interesting so having the

26:07

the advantage i'm working with

26:10

thousands of different groups

26:12

niger thousand to be with thousands that vinaigrette

26:14

still almost identical in this way

26:16

it is really amazing it's like that

26:19

colleges have read the same the annual sky

26:21

and a thing to a great agree

26:24

it's because they have the same personality disorder

26:26

so it manifests in same way right

26:29

man

26:29

really what they're saying is i can't

26:31

handle any criticism but

26:34

i'm not going to say it like that i'm not

26:36

going to have a tantrum that's obvious

26:38

instead i'm in to make you wrong for

26:41

holding me to anything that i said

26:43

that might have been

26:44

contradictory

26:45

to having an opinion to having a negative

26:47

emotion about it and so i'm

26:49

gonna build into the system this

26:52

sort of zone of protection

26:54

as for my ego where you need to

26:56

then look inward because all

26:58

you're doing is you're holding a mirror up but

27:00

they don't wanna look so then you

27:02

it wrong for their get someone

27:05

else to tell you that iran too

27:06

the way they're used there is usually

27:08

the hence man hence woman

27:11

and people who are the ones who do the as

27:13

very true

27:14

if it's a man and normally get a woman the do it

27:16

because softer and i don't suspect

27:19

women to be that was i just don't generally

27:21

speaking since normally generally

27:23

i'm not saying women can't be but generally it's a man

27:26

with mommy issues who's doing stuff and

27:28

he uses and abuses women ago

27:31

do his bidding those are the patterns june that

27:33

we sing se

27:34

yeah like with rush nice and other people

27:36

who had women doing yes and

27:38

it and it happens often out of the

27:40

with this group los del mundo i was also

27:43

how it matters with i'm

27:45

, in one i've never heard of as scientists

27:48

as it tries as a cast as if i heard of it's

27:50

just as good as sex it as

27:52

as the person in charge

27:54

the had pastor who

27:56

is the son of god of course of course

27:59

yeah nurse the fat hello

28:01

a kid they began

28:03

success he now he's you

28:05

know in jail but and from

28:07

and should be for longer i wish there were hundreds of

28:09

years so i'm wondering also about the things

28:12

that you were called says i find sometimes

28:14

the things that people are calls or so

28:17

the heard

28:18

that's differential like a massage

28:20

and mistake a lot of the women are called controlling

28:23

are manipulative and the man

28:25

i think when they're they might be considered

28:27

hostile or defiant and you know that

28:29

somehow that is threatening it

28:32

a lumpy believe wondering about these things

28:34

about themselves so what else were you called

28:36

while you were there were diagnosed with

28:38

i will have a diagnosis like me disease

28:41

home improvement the first time i had my with cars

28:43

have a your life issue elicited were

28:45

and i actually had it done in front of the class nancy

28:47

did it in front of a class as a demo

28:49

and says she doesn't like i'm being like

28:51

post like on the whiteboard that and you can like rip

28:54

off the sheets and keep it forever it still have

28:56

it actually and so they ask what was your worst

28:58

moment worst decision best ally

29:01

worst opponent and when she asks questions

29:03

and she listens that she looks at it and goes to

29:05

tell you what your life issue as and basically

29:07

at that point and that life is your valls as

29:09

you evolve the might change over the twelve years but

29:11

that point she basically said you have the capacity

29:14

to be a great leader for you have to stop caring

29:16

what people think about you and i really

29:18

actually related to that i think there's truth

29:20

in it because i did care so

29:22

much people saw an ad something that was like

29:25

what i want to work on and that

29:27

was also very inhibiting as an actor and

29:29

ironically i had to really get over

29:31

that to do what we did twelve years

29:33

later put myself on the cover the new york times

29:36

and all the shit that that would take and

29:38

what people think of me some positive than

29:40

negative but like enough you don't read the full article

29:42

her watch the vow just some dumb idiot

29:44

who that you know branded in a sex called the

29:47

you know to me and like and there's people who think that

29:49

and i have to really not care to do

29:51

what we're doing right now seltzer on

29:53

it but it was also used against

29:55

me i would call does god

29:57

nippy what you might remember better but the main the main

29:59

thing

30:00

it was my control i would make i was micromanaging

30:03

out get in trouble for like the way that led

30:05

my center and that i wouldn't leading well

30:07

because i wouldn't let things they all because

30:10

i wanted things to be so perfect so than variant let

30:12

things failed and other people wouldn't grow solid

30:14

like always trying to like get in there and

30:16

and do things myself like not

30:19

trained people properly for them to do it because they would

30:21

have to fail and i didn't wanna say on like

30:23

they they literally told me to leave my center and

30:25

leave him move to albany so that it i could lead

30:27

everyone sale like literally let the center

30:29

crumble and that's how it would

30:31

police were called stuff

30:33

is much as when you are stored

30:35

up as a person your issues where the

30:37

saying that were most prevalent so like if

30:39

rachel came into the house rachel doing with

30:42

her like me disease or so

30:44

per pride there wasn't seventy

30:47

years man there's someone as objectifying

30:49

someone based on their issues so

30:51

in uk man and you are staffing my training

30:53

our know that your pride issues were thing i'll be

30:55

looking for to help you shit went out and

30:57

obama talked about that last year

31:00

like so and so early that she's doing her tantrums

31:03

they're just doing their tantrum sanger like they're

31:05

right wrong thing with people who are very butlins

31:07

being like right all the time and there

31:09

was

31:10

you know like active the

31:12

well struggled with her and or learn was issue

31:15

five

31:16

yeah where is she finds his eyes and

31:18

wow and and they'll be

31:20

things and also dependencies the like this

31:22

is something that came up as i was only with nippy

31:25

mon not only i was with somebody else for the first

31:27

three years and i was single for a year and then whether they be

31:29

so like the past the last chance

31:32

i was a nap and then it was things like

31:35

you know me being when they be like just covering my

31:37

deficiency so like we have these deficiencies

31:39

that we like let me look for in the

31:42

outside world the cover it so i was happy

31:44

if you know we're happy together which meant that might

31:46

efficiency was covered it wasn't joy it

31:48

was just that like and selling the whole of

31:50

a significant metaphorically like

31:53

there's always something you can be working on

31:55

yeah but we get and schiffer that like i'm

31:57

margaret how it that way know

31:59

the relationship because they don't want to cover their deficiency

32:02

that's why other women were single book as they were that's

32:05

what we thought that people were working others

32:06

he was helping them grow and be another

32:09

relationship was bad for them to source within

32:11

the code the gist of it

32:12

yeah he basically to keep people single

32:15

so he could get in there and then later

32:17

we found out when we were leaving from someone who left

32:19

before us that if you want to leave without

32:21

getting in trouble which we thought we were doing

32:23

and first ways , we had

32:25

to use our issues as the reason

32:28

so later as we got closer

32:30

and our bond with better way you know we had he got married

32:32

had kids then i had dependency issues

32:34

so that was another thing i was called dangers too

32:36

dependent and so we use that as

32:38

are accept as we made it look like

32:41

with her stage this elaborate plan and unless

32:43

you got to that part in the book but yeah yeah

32:45

yeah i mean what's so interesting about

32:47

that part of the book i mean it it's elaborate services

32:50

and and as

32:52

genius that you're able to to work

32:55

it in that way cause you've had he you've

32:57

to learn the system and see what would work and when

32:59

and had and planet what i find so

33:01

interesting about that as i was reading

33:03

that and now hearing me talking is that

33:06

it can never be that the reason you're leaving

33:08

is because something is wrong with the organization

33:11

though then it has to be because

33:13

of your issue anatoly view

33:15

and there's some people really do believe that

33:18

when they leave that and they will come to me

33:20

saying i am this and

33:22

i have this and what's wrong with me

33:24

and none of those things are true that

33:26

they have taken them on are they had to because

33:28

they really did believe or they were convinced

33:31

that the way you grow and mrs the

33:33

way you really learn about yourself

33:35

and

33:36

our humble enough to really look inward

33:38

and

33:38

so why i think so much of

33:40

this is just manufacturing content

33:43

so that they can help you with all these issues

33:45

they then told you you have an

33:47

so it would be like a doctor giving you a whole

33:49

variety diagnoses so that can pay

33:51

for more treatment arms same thing with fraudulent

33:54

therapists who i talk a lot about

33:56

who will say well you have this issue and madison

33:58

and this so that years

33:59

and an imam in the work keeps going

34:02

that i think it's really important to be

34:04

able to get to that point where you can say action

34:06

i think that were unhappy that because

34:08

of us yeah us and

34:11

said there isn't a space to say that

34:13

there safely no no

34:15

never as and ironically keith actually taught

34:17

a class called sister that exposes

34:20

that exact pattern even how

34:22

like companies do at where the the like

34:24

cause a problem in the environment

34:26

and make money or circle come from and pharmaceutical

34:29

company that cause a problem and then make money

34:31

send the clean up of the problem as well as

34:33

the

34:34

creation the problem and

34:36

so that's exactly what was happening in

34:38

in axiom their i target couldn't agree

34:41

more and actually part of my therapy and i'm still

34:43

in the process of it is like accepting

34:45

who i am as a person like it's not

34:47

control and i mean

34:49

yes i can be i could micromanage right

34:51

like

34:52

node actor your skillset in a negative

34:54

light

34:54

the way i have a skill set i

34:56

think that's also a little bit why they'd kind

34:59

of left me alone to a degree with i didn't get

35:01

had such in the way that many people dead

35:03

like was because i was of recruiter i

35:05

was bringing in so many people's i

35:07

think to a certain degree they wanted to

35:10

then you're bringing his girlfriends

35:12

and bringing my man that was a paypal i mean not

35:14

on purpose obviously but that'd be clear i didn't

35:16

know that but i was a pipeline for him

35:18

the new that

35:19

the new that like when you the first time i

35:21

showed up in albany with as the oh my girlfriend's

35:24

everyone was joking about like how like people like

35:26

sarah you have any unattractive friends like i

35:28

was just showing up with all these beautiful

35:30

actors it i didn't realize why

35:33

they were so excited the

35:36

ah ah ah now raise

35:38

it raise heartbroken it's heartbroken it's

35:41

hard because you know that the problem

35:43

in these situations as the person

35:45

who's the last feeling guilt

35:47

has not the ones who created

35:50

the system and not the one who deceived

35:52

you into participating in unwittingly

35:55

i think it so interesting to

35:57

and you saying that you so working on this and therapy

35:59

so much of it is that of peeling off

36:02

what's real and what isn't

36:04

one of the things that i find helpful

36:06

with my clients it's understanding

36:08

why that person or why that organization

36:11

needed for you to believe that about yourself

36:13

how it served them how it

36:15

doesn't serve you and it might not be at

36:17

all accurate about

36:19

the

36:20

i'm wondering how you

36:22

were kind of motivated

36:24

to see each other as human

36:27

beings and the process that is

36:29

needed to go through just as a couple

36:31

and of almost green meet each

36:33

other without that lens that

36:35

you were given to look at each other through that

36:37

was the next young lads who has

36:40

a great question to as heck allison

36:42

then there was

36:44

there and i building a company together

36:46

if you had met me in two thousand and ten

36:48

to two thousand and sixteen sixteen or said

36:51

working for something were some person impression

36:54

of elements to goals program unless

36:56

we were doing and so our lifestyle

36:58

was i was in new york l a vancouver

37:00

the flying all over the place running trains

37:02

it looked actually pretty exotic and fun they'll

37:05

say no switzerland and at cern i

37:07

weren't in the clutches of

37:10

the inner circle and she's until the end

37:12

or i wasn't yeah but not enough for

37:14

me them you as you yeah yeah brought into that dazzling

37:18

but we lived a lifestyle that looked on the

37:20

outside like was fun

37:22

and sarah and i were able to do that because we weren't

37:25

in albany but i don't know

37:27

three times a year for times year look at

37:29

more to and because i was were running

37:31

other training some stuff like that but we're running companies

37:34

is what it felt like and growing them so

37:36

you had two sets of essex one

37:38

around cheese and one the enough

37:41

in the companies that era there was an insult

37:43

pro last six months last year of

37:45

ours participation in when

37:47

surrogate mother das where i feel

37:49

like our relationship was being

37:51

stressed and ways by forces the i

37:53

didn't necessarily know where they were coming

37:56

from and it was until after i realize

37:58

that a relationship was stressed the the

38:00

old adage and chiropractic as celibacy

38:02

times you don't know how much painter and until it's gone

38:05

right and once you're out of the clutches

38:07

of that i was able to kind of get a sense of holy

38:09

shit we were near some dark stuff and

38:11

our relationship wouldn't have lasted and we stay

38:13

involved in that area would have been because

38:15

of the people that were triangulating

38:18

making serious issues my problem

38:20

my issues her problems we weren't going

38:22

to each other to help each other

38:24

thrives it was more we were going

38:26

outside a relationship the people that didn't

38:28

want to see as fries

38:29

a few really good point like we didn't realize

38:32

that the people that we're going to for coaching

38:34

didn't want us to be together it was chiefs

38:36

plan to break us that ultimately and

38:39

tried in different ways

38:40

i mean rachel to to get your head

38:42

around like and twenty eighteen august

38:45

twenty eighth we spoke with the

38:48

one that will do an investigation cheese and

38:50

we were privy to the mountains of evidence that

38:53

was coming against case that he didn't have

38:55

access to get yet their lawyer

38:57

the sky agnes was in

38:59

interviews discrediting sarah

39:02

night in our relationship they

39:04

were will certainly be relationship isn't all that

39:06

was messed up to be so that told me that

39:08

number one that was their angle and i was laughing

39:10

to the fat so they got flight they

39:12

went saw the people are helping us that we confided

39:15

in confidential they were like

39:17

here's what's going on the relation here but

39:19

the things that were going on relationship

39:21

were caused by them rights

39:23

so that's the way they time have leverage

39:26

and as i know what they're going to say move

39:28

though to said thing that goes on and in any relationship

39:31

but didn't realize that our the relationship

39:34

were to independently pretty strong people

39:36

were going in thrive in the matter what we were in

39:38

and that's what they were contending with at that point and

39:40

so they had reason to be scared of us

39:42

so they had to discredit that and agnes hello

39:45

being with like doing what lawyers do

39:47

which were the like it or not

39:50

the city

39:51

that is betty think that foundation for

39:53

anything

39:53

add a yeah and it felt like if that's your

39:55

that's your only card good luck

39:58

this is rape and pedophilia the down on

40:00

your dot , site and

40:03

is so you can say serendipity are the

40:05

perfect couple into else has

40:07

his else has by i could

40:09

soldier system

40:11

prior as have enough in regards your

40:13

last question or it's okay a place

40:15

in terms of like art the healing that we've had to do

40:17

i think one of the most and is wasn't just a that

40:19

said it was all couples and what everyone

40:22

is that one of the most insidious things

40:24

about the teaching is that we

40:27

as humans

40:28

this is like on day one with this

40:30

module called honesty and disclosure they have

40:32

you right up your list of needs and everyone

40:35

has like obviously survival needs and then things that

40:37

they think they need in their life and basically by end of the module

40:39

you learn that only survival needs or

40:41

needs everything else love connection

40:43

community relationship career

40:46

success joy chill or other things are not

40:48

needs but desires which means they're

40:50

based on your inner deficiency things you think

40:52

you need to be okay so yes

40:55

it's helpful to know i don't need those shoes to be

40:57

happy right but like it's very

40:59

toxic if you believe that everything

41:01

else you want past survival is a

41:04

deficiency based on your deficiency and

41:06

and some you need to overcome it behooves

41:08

keys to have people who let go of their

41:10

career who let go of their desired and children

41:12

and so i was constantly

41:15

being hammered about like my attachment

41:17

to wine have kids and i think

41:19

for us as a couple we've had to really learn

41:21

and the slits herpes been great for isis to teach

41:23

us that like it's okay for me a want

41:26

to connect with net be or want to

41:28

feel like he's there to support me emotionally

41:30

like almost all of my yams came down to let

41:33

what is support and what am i going for

41:35

on the outside world and what am i what do i not do

41:37

for might like basically i to become more self reliant

41:39

and not ask for anything from heaven right

41:41

and that's a major major problem in

41:43

a relationship is not have relationships

41:45

actually work in reality we're still learning this

41:47

soon to answer that question i think

41:50

that like when we were in a yes we are building

41:52

and as fun as exotic but like we want relating

41:54

and a normal healthy way we were barely

41:57

knew each other on your senses

41:59

we never had i'm to be like we never

42:01

went on days never did like just hung out

42:03

where as always

42:05

the phone are you building the next intense

42:07

ever filling trainings not a good partner

42:09

not a good president partner libby

42:12

still has to be like can you stop sit

42:14

on the couch and just chill out with me and

42:16

like the railyard killer

42:18

in another universe as

42:20

is giving him and he as right so right

42:23

think you know so much of what happens is

42:25

that the group itself especially if it if

42:27

it was getting was getting head about what kind of person

42:29

you are and what you're up to an

42:32

in terms of your relationships and

42:34

how can it be a healthy one of your and

42:36

if you're both all these other day

42:38

for you then you must have to like

42:40

exercise is next cm

42:42

out of your relationship so that

42:45

you can see each other and you can

42:47

learn who the other person really is

42:49

and you can have

42:51

your natural reactions to things

42:53

without wondering oh is it okay that i'm

42:55

thinking man and should i be and but just

42:58

be of others

42:58

breathe and

43:00

know that you can view

43:01

each other in a in a more relaxed natural

43:04

way that takes him suing

43:06

just sit face of it's i also

43:09

, to say that be so great to do this with

43:11

and so glad i'm not alone in the stern he says

43:13

he so funny and set

43:15

so many the things that they had us do or

43:17

so ridiculous is retrospect

43:20

that we have to like we laugh about it now

43:22

like third there's one thing reach like if you were late

43:24

for late meeting even a minute late you

43:26

to thought this is where the later years so it

43:28

was called it breach form which was like what's

43:30

an infraction was

43:32

you ever do that rcs to do

43:34

i

43:34

i did the his i just cut

43:36

and paste from emily anniversary this is

43:39

because hitler really get those like again obediently

43:41

i was wanting to be obedient but like i didn't were

43:43

put in the work is questions like cut and paste from other

43:45

people how the breach effect the

43:48

group yourself and all of humanity

43:50

and what you're going to do to fix that the and never do

43:53

again and then later became like penance

43:55

like was the parents to heal the breach and it

43:57

just felt like wildly out of control that now nippy

43:59

and i joke

43:59

your this up name like i'm not empty the dishwasher

44:02

i'll be like time to celebrate haven't shipped

44:04

to eat

44:06

a he was it we're that's a good as opie when

44:09

us to hijack slay but it is basically

44:11

if the men were calling out the women

44:13

the women things that were like weren't okay and they'd

44:15

say fault bill i yell fault from across

44:18

the room so now ship you i will fall off each

44:20

other but like like were and deprogramming

44:22

but were also like laughing at ourselves like feel like

44:24

that's healthy so good it's good

44:26

good and the schools idea also to

44:28

think about

44:29

how full of yourself you need to be a

44:31

tear has come and sell out a form

44:34

were just being as secondly they

44:36

need to think about how this not only

44:38

affects them and

44:39

group at all

44:40

manatee really that's a thing

44:43

and simpsons i will know when

44:45

my meaning

44:46

the poor group infer former

44:48

hop members was meeting in my office and hopefully

44:50

it will be again soon after the and

44:52

mx and the risk is it

44:54

lower the i would sometimes know

44:57

when someone was new and had been involved

45:00

in more of a psychological

45:02

the halted group or were

45:03

there had been any kind of

45:06

could have a therapy or group therapy

45:08

because if they're running late

45:10

i used to see the like a line in my

45:12

office to you click assessing the light would go

45:14

on to let me in a let me know if someone was there

45:16

then would go off

45:18

go on

45:19

then we'll go off at the prison was panic

45:21

stay as matter of in all the way to my office

45:23

a they wanted to come in but there are so afraid of

45:25

being yelled at because they were like served

45:28

i would see the like go on and off and on and i'd open

45:30

the door and it's a were you in psychotherapy called

45:32

as you know and it was really

45:34

fascinating to see how

45:37

how you were so afraid i think

45:39

are made to be afraid of but

45:41

also just use the word obedience

45:43

and also paying tenants like you had committed

45:46

had crime which is so interesting

45:48

to have it be like this police state which

45:50

is not at all what you signed up for

45:52

some wondering what other ways

45:55

did you notice that it became more militant

45:57

in this way and it was about of either every

45:59

whereas it was unhappy knew

46:02

who they are walks around as looked in the face

46:04

of their dog just died and

46:06

yeah well and also look

46:08

specifically military to the blu b

46:10

s o p training came in the last few

46:12

years if you were ten minutes late

46:14

for an s o p training every one a bit the

46:16

chair of the be in lions and everyone to be standing

46:19

there like at attention like military south staring

46:21

straight ahead for as long as you were gone

46:23

severe than ten minutes they be waiting for you

46:25

have started at nine to be waiting for the first ten minutes

46:28

and then you'd have to get in your

46:30

spot and then everyone would have to wait

46:32

for another ten minutes because of your lateness

46:34

what else is militants oh i mean people

46:36

became like there's there's

46:38

, couple people that literally became

46:41

like the put self policing they're acting

46:43

as spies for keith keith

46:45

people were spying in each other and i remember being

46:47

like brought into nancy's office to like

46:50

verify whether somebody had done something or not

46:52

done something and like there was kind of like specialness

46:54

to that you know when you were like part of the

46:56

of like did you hear that

46:58

stolen so said that it as that trilogy

47:00

can you confirm what do you think about

47:02

that and to be in nancy's off as

47:05

being the person who would decide if was like

47:07

when enhance right

47:10

i mean with so interesting to about this is that

47:12

when you're getting involved in a group like

47:14

this i think he thinks that you're supposed to be

47:16

reaching the sort of higher level of being

47:18

and a higher level of thinking an

47:21

operating on this plane and that

47:23

has a sort of harry already

47:25

to about where you feel like

47:27

you're transcending where a lot

47:29

of people get involved in and in out just

47:31

sort of wasted time and me

47:34

enough but also some of the most

47:36

gossipy and caddy

47:37

the group

47:39

has i think people are jockeying for

47:41

position i think always

47:43

there's it's hierarchy and you can lose standing

47:45

so easily so people are kind of clutching

47:47

onto their opportunities to maintain

47:50

are standing or to raise themselves up in one of

47:52

the ways rates and so new raises the

47:54

opposite rat

47:55

the other people with hasn't really pleased

47:57

as the leader said that they really didn't

47:59

the intel and it's hard a lot of people

48:02

feel really guilty afterwards but again going

48:04

back to where we started they i think if you're

48:06

convinced that it's for the greater good it's

48:08

for that person's benefit the further groups

48:10

benefit than you feel like somehow

48:12

it's good to do it

48:13

the law justification for bad behavior

48:16

injured

48:16

the let other justification

48:19

do you remember for bad

48:21

behavior i just think the simple thing

48:23

of talking about people behind their backs

48:25

and the name of their growth is a slippery slope

48:28

you can ending on the person

48:30

how you're going to use that early on

48:32

i didn't subscribe to the hierarchy and the organization

48:35

so i got some point right to teach and didn't care

48:37

about being promoted or mckenna said that

48:39

in talk about people but the hierarchy to

48:41

me was never something i felt like i wanted to go

48:43

up i disliked my domain had

48:46

my piece in it but to earlier point

48:48

when you are taken out of society

48:50

in the way that we are to certain extent now sir

48:52

in our were able to get a foothold

48:54

have been in the culture a society going

48:57

on building something and then being in

48:59

the bubble of the cold when you're in the bubbles

49:01

the colts your extracted from really

49:03

the laws of cause and effect of the world and

49:05

that's where you get your gross the self esteem

49:08

yourself knowledge by yourself to get adversity

49:10

all the things that will grow you are

49:12

you sell your adversity maybe

49:15

the tragic event those are all things that

49:17

grow you and dodger consciousness so

49:19

you have a group of people who have been extracted

49:21

from they don't have any real self

49:23

esteem you don't really have any interface with

49:25

the real world except the domain that are n

49:27

and are being told that they're morally superior

49:30

intellect stuff so they entitlement

49:32

gets nurtured more than their gross but

49:35

they don't really know that is another interface so

49:37

they become emotionally stunted professionally

49:39

started always particular if you're in there your

49:41

whole life in your twenties now

49:44

because i was in and out i

49:46

had a little bit of i think certain things

49:48

professionally i was started in but fortunately

49:51

i've had sarah to turn that me up

49:53

to speed on those things and vice versa

49:55

you know certain things i feel like sarah missed

49:57

out on and as dot says work ethic a realist

50:00

even able to thrive a little because you're taking inventory

50:03

on areas that we might

50:05

be mostly started in certain

50:07

or not if you're in that bubble and that's the only place

50:09

you grown your journeys gonna be tough and

50:11

the more you don't acknowledge the

50:14

abuse that happened to you and and other

50:16

things and it's it's a game if you

50:18

don't do that you're getting to be stuck where you

50:20

are for the rest your life and us where we see some

50:22

the people that but i would run ousted or even amid

50:24

as a bit of his go on are incredibly started

50:27

when you're in that domain solely

50:30

the point the ,

50:32

is your current in that group

50:35

hey a little bit clumsy listeners

50:38

bless , little biddy hearts for helping

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support this podcast you asked

50:42

us to put a link up where you could make a one time

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you stepped up thank you in

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fact in a relatively short time seventieth

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you have already chipped in and

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together the whole beautiful lot of you have covered

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he trucking along thanks again

51:48

we adore you

51:58

it doesn't justify that we talk

52:00

about people says you the hyuk they got to

52:03

green michael always talking about where people

52:05

were at and what they needed to do to grow to the next

52:07

level but it did feel gossipy at times

52:09

and i felt like this right leg

52:11

for the sub taxes are we how are these

52:13

people not being obedient to over supposed to be doing

52:15

here that's real that's really what it was

52:18

i mean the gossip was the other find their

52:20

work in their issues but really they're being a beating

52:22

we are you can say remember this one woman who has an

52:24

older than me and should sue that she coach when

52:26

i started and she never got

52:28

to proctor she never got to the level where you can

52:30

get paid and in her life she's very successful

52:33

she ran multiple businesses she was

52:35

in outgoings that politics is great

52:38

the great woman and a really wonderful woman

52:40

and i remember i like pasture in

52:42

rank and then and now i'm talking about this woman

52:44

whose know that younger the my parents but like older

52:47

than me and more mature and had more success

52:49

in reality and now i'm responsible for

52:51

her promotion and i member like trying to get

52:53

promoted to proctor because we want somebody

52:55

like that his successor little life to be proctor be

52:57

on the back to gym the she to get paid and like go to

52:59

the next level and they were always saying how like defiant

53:02

she was and i remember meeting

53:04

with her after well as an axiom and having a lot

53:06

like she got she laughed like left of us and and

53:08

she was like no wonder you never

53:10

got to prefer you of defiance you just

53:13

weren't obedience to she wasn't

53:15

she pushed back on staff and she's like no that's not

53:17

how it works in the real world like i have a business and like this

53:19

is not you know and so they wouldn't promoter to she

53:21

wasn't malleable and us and for me to say

53:23

to her like i'm so i guess that's been my

53:26

apology tour of us five years am

53:28

so sorry that i didn't see that them

53:30

and couldn't have your back in the way that i wish

53:32

i could have because now i see it but

53:35

i didn't see it

53:36

these things go on and colts i

53:38

like you were going on politically or if

53:41

you republican you speak out against republican

53:43

party you're in trouble if you're a democrat you speak

53:45

alias democratic party you know

53:47

get mind you're in trouble it's a characteristic

53:50

of are extremely systems

53:51

having it's really true i mean i think we

53:53

if we do see it all around us and you

53:56

know what happens in within a cold the is

53:58

specific to that group sometimes be i didn't

54:00

the behaviors of the language or the people

54:02

that really their social psychology

54:04

is mimics everywhere and we

54:07

see it in politics for sure a lot

54:09

of things are coming to the for now

54:11

with child's going on and

54:13

with footage has been released for people

54:15

are not looking like their believing let the

54:17

person is saying that they know they have to go along

54:19

with a to there's gonna be hell to pay if they don't

54:22

nc never quite know who you can

54:24

believe that you can get a read on them to

54:26

they're pretending so many people i've

54:28

noticed who who have less political

54:30

organizations that were very and ten anything

54:33

that was strict in it's

54:36

idea

54:36

the g anywhere where they had to

54:38

please the leader they often were

54:40

feeling very differently than they lead on

54:42

and not happy and

54:44

not in agreement that couldn't

54:46

say so when people will say

54:48

you know i didn't wanna talk about how

54:50

unhappy i was because i was the only one there

54:53

who was unhappy you're never the only

54:55

one there's or as answer right

54:57

we realize that afterward for sure charlotte

54:59

we'd have sessions of people will so many

55:01

people make that we're just all laughed and we get together

55:04

and we were just sharing agreements as we can share

55:06

grievances ever get especially

55:08

later in the last year as with the genus

55:10

training and as a piece one of women's

55:13

for any case worse worse traits was

55:15

complaining so anything that you

55:17

said that with negative was all you just complaining like the

55:19

that's what i thought terminating

55:21

the say right there but claire like we're

55:23

not actually been paid for the law

55:26

the how it handled you are right now wow

55:29

i'm ah ,

55:31

am launch titles good a fucking earned

55:33

that and i did that work you complaining

55:36

the work on that with your coach i didn't understand

55:38

i was being gas let a now and and

55:40

even just to get together in a room and say

55:42

how we really felt when i had food poisoning and

55:45

nancy told me it was because i was breached out

55:47

i wouldn't bar fingers of the bad shrimp a bar fame

55:49

because they had a breach in that was my body's where am

55:51

i i don't agree but you can't disagree

55:53

because then you're being defiant and then you're not going

55:55

to get promoted you can't fucking girl so you

55:57

just learn to shut the fuck up

55:59

the wonder

55:59

that includes important

56:01

the number one effects of that is yes you have

56:04

give and of abusive behavior is when have

56:06

a grievance but it forces people to take

56:08

the morality and for it a backseat to the

56:10

current dogma and she sang and

56:12

cowardice is rewarded and

56:15

and so the principle that these groups

56:17

professor that champion there's no

56:19

longer be in shape and it's being usurped

56:21

by the people that really wants to uphold

56:24

and i think the group is about that so that's

56:26

what leads to moral injury alert or

56:28

specific fuck this thing supposed to be this

56:31

but i can't say this now and and

56:33

answers to tow the company line and

56:35

it was uric acid the company line is

56:37

is undermining the principal a supposed to be

56:39

about that's when you have your article conundrum

56:42

sometimes you don't know that's what your reconcile so

56:44

it's important the really but words to what

56:46

is it uses looks like so that when someone enters

56:49

a system that seemingly incentivize

56:51

uphold the principles but doesn't fit incentivize

56:54

is people to be cowards and that uphold have

56:56

any to say separate with a smear

56:58

the said and to say something right away

57:00

i mean first have it register inside

57:03

of you and sometimes

57:05

people hold back as they don't know exactly

57:07

what it is bothering them and had and

57:09

it into words for also

57:11

rachel even trying to not have register

57:13

there are gut instincts were

57:16

dismantled

57:16

so you have is registration

57:19

so the conversation start happening behind

57:21

the scenes sona waterway gossip serves

57:23

a purpose it's to a certain

57:25

extent if if you're someone who's who's

57:27

just this isn't the right same and

57:30

there's enough people in the organization

57:32

and of that it wasn't right and which is also like

57:34

and down so quickly that attracted to people

57:37

exactly you know a lot of people say

57:39

to me if we could have just gotten rid of the leader

57:41

he went ahead of a wonderful

57:44

or jesus as good as a true that people

57:46

really care you know

57:48

the like them get rid of the person who's

57:50

making it's toxic and really connect

57:53

and really do something that's and yeah

57:55

there's lot more potential there with the with the people

57:57

involved than with the leader really fc

57:59

just

57:59

the and in a way yes nasa

58:02

she some people are mad at us

58:04

the renovating what he did was bad they're likely

58:06

he ruined the community started minor

58:08

blip go guy i get back together no

58:11

matter how that is he

58:14

exactly right

58:15

i remember when him talking to india

58:17

and she was mentioning

58:20

the ems expiration of meaning as you know

58:22

i don't have as letting us or the audience and for you

58:24

and i remember saying to her is

58:26

so interesting that you keep

58:29

using the term am because i

58:31

have this sort of therapist shorthand when

58:33

i'm writing out my notes after a session and

58:36

he am to me stands

58:38

for emotional manipulation and

58:40

i thought that is so interesting the things

58:42

just get turned on their head day that

58:45

an escalation of meaning is i think

58:47

part of what you're also talking about

58:49

that you learn to disarm yourself and learn to

58:51

look inward as opposed to having a natural reaction

58:54

to what's happening around you you

58:56

have to kind of think what's wrong with me than

58:58

i am and what what can i learn from this

59:00

yeah it's time your hands all along

59:03

the way to be able to protect yourself i think

59:05

and have a normal reaction to

59:07

being mistreated or being controlled

59:10

i know i'm i'm just being mindful

59:12

of the time and i know is it's have a little bit as homeless

59:14

but i know there's so much more to talk about

59:16

a minute we'll talk

59:17

one

59:18

that i'm really curious about

59:20

you as parents because when

59:23

you have a child or children

59:26

who you're than raising after having

59:29

been in a situation like this and i'm

59:31

sure it informs some of

59:33

the decisions that you make and some of the conversation

59:36

that you have or what you're sort of even planning

59:38

to prepare them for in

59:41

life about holding onto their

59:43

voice etc so i'm wondering

59:45

just how it's infusing itself

59:48

into your role as parents for

59:50

your future generation this

59:52

is a good question i think we've been through

59:54

bit of a gamut when try was three when we

59:56

last and luckily we never immerse

59:59

them fully into the rainbow program with

1:00:01

the just didn't exist in vancouver

1:00:02

we recruit and were traveling

1:00:04

that but we did have like a

1:00:06

nanny who spoke spanish like the full

1:00:08

rainbow program would have been he would have never rarely

1:00:11

been with us and every nanny would have been

1:00:13

speaking a different language we did to like a tiny

1:00:15

bit of mandarin at the beginning but it didn't we

1:00:17

didn't have infrastructure for rainbow thank god

1:00:19

cause i think that had really diabolical

1:00:22

intentions will save that for another episode but

1:00:25

there's some principals some principals to him

1:00:27

that we kind of taught with to

1:00:29

him that i i'm a which i think that

1:00:31

in some ways i think are bad the good stuff being

1:00:34

what i still try to foster me bolster our foster

1:00:36

is like raising the child self esteem to

1:00:38

be able to learn to do things on their own not during

1:00:40

for them to that there and mean the terminology

1:00:42

is and an axiom as so try to like use

1:00:44

different words bad that i think

1:00:47

is is solid what we did do

1:00:49

before having a says we did a parenting program

1:00:51

at that larry and institute which is not faulty

1:00:54

as far as i know and both system in a method

1:00:56

of it and our honestly actually looking at our

1:00:58

own how we were parenthood and to

1:01:00

think nippy had more of like an authoritarian

1:01:02

parent i had more like at the

1:01:04

hippie left wing social activist

1:01:07

the your parents who are more like they didn't believe

1:01:09

in punishment so we have very different ways of

1:01:11

being raised and cilic having to can have come

1:01:13

to terms with those methods and how we wanna be

1:01:16

with our kids but i think you're right

1:01:18

now the thing that we're just trying

1:01:20

to reconcile is like he knows

1:01:22

like you know as a fair bit of what happens

1:01:24

and just making sure that like he

1:01:26

gets it and understand why

1:01:29

we did what we did and hopefully one day we'll be proud

1:01:31

of as bet says

1:01:32

he gets it is smart

1:01:34

i think our journey now like

1:01:36

as just trying to like give both

1:01:38

of our children have a place express

1:01:40

themselves and be themselves and not shut them down

1:01:42

and to be like they can express

1:01:45

how they feel and to never

1:01:47

shame them for that or makes them feel

1:01:49

bad for that and also that like

1:01:51

teach them proper like emotional regulation

1:01:53

which come to the charlotte

1:01:56

because i'm a bit of a stress case you know and

1:01:58

i guess i can have out

1:01:59

and the i'm not i'm not

1:02:02

fair

1:02:02

that's right now is going in and clean

1:02:04

it up and they know that we're good

1:02:06

self correct years

1:02:07

yeah i think that ashes and they would have met one

1:02:09

of my therapist sought me is like if i do

1:02:11

decently that it's not ideal like young

1:02:13

alert you know lose my patients are my temper

1:02:16

i immediately acknowledge it

1:02:18

the scale

1:02:19

and don't put it on him as you they listen this

1:02:21

i'm i'm so sorry i am i

1:02:23

didn't wrists give myself time

1:02:25

for self care today i'm stressed out and i

1:02:28

did not react properly in that moment i

1:02:30

wish that i wish i could said is that i

1:02:32

would urge eyes and and we want

1:02:34

to teach him how to like take responsibility for those

1:02:36

things not put it back on him so i think and

1:02:38

he does that to with as

1:02:39

good i'm not worried about i'm not worried

1:02:41

about him is

1:02:42

sorry mom that weather's great way

1:02:44

to handle as her

1:02:48

gray i've heard people say

1:02:51

later on in their lives

1:02:52

after their parents had passed the

1:02:55

thing never heard the words i'm sorry

1:02:57

and it makes such an impact because

1:03:00

usually those kids have

1:03:02

any age know that there was a lot

1:03:05

that happened to them and they really wish

1:03:07

their parents are taking responsibility they really wish

1:03:09

in some remorse and some apology

1:03:12

so you're actually offering your kids

1:03:14

exist by saying i'm sorry

1:03:16

and i acknowledge and you're also showing

1:03:18

them how

1:03:19

grow from an experience and

1:03:21

how your

1:03:22

willing to take responsibility which actually

1:03:24

to me comes from a place of

1:03:26

confidence i think that's why

1:03:28

co leaders never take responsibility

1:03:31

because inside they don't have

1:03:33

that they really can't handle it

1:03:35

they always need to make your

1:03:37

have you could say you know

1:03:39

a guy yells and then you

1:03:42

know i i really didn't handle it well but if

1:03:44

you were later you'd say

1:03:46

i yelled that that's because you ran

1:03:48

right right right suddenly

1:03:50

would get redirected back onto the other person

1:03:52

i want to make want distinction there because as at this

1:03:55

is still something is catch myself doing like tried

1:03:57

love basketball and advances about the

1:03:59

house in the neighbor they don't have to be like i

1:04:01

will get sure if he doesn't listen you know

1:04:03

and i could easily say you're

1:04:05

not listening that's why i'm yelling right which

1:04:08

in many ways is that the is

1:04:10

it's like the precursors to gas lighting

1:04:12

it's like flipping it back right and

1:04:15

i have to be so careful as suffering

1:04:17

it out and like owning my reaction cygnus

1:04:20

on okay this on a of he would analysts separate

1:04:22

thing let's talk about the basketball game

1:04:24

this can happen in the house because

1:04:26

of this and let's talk about it because

1:04:29

i feel like the whole he now will you back

1:04:31

and forth that were like the way they kids

1:04:33

get dismissed is just so unhealthy

1:04:37

you know on a the as think that that i

1:04:39

don't want him to be defiant against us

1:04:41

and then go look for

1:04:43

some other community you know who

1:04:45

, think that so naturally when i see when we talked

1:04:47

our gas is so many the people we speak to

1:04:50

were like individuated you know from

1:04:52

whatever construct they went sir

1:04:54

i had a great childhood it's like offense like a fabulous

1:04:57

parents and i still needed individuate

1:04:59

and be like you as a therapist but i found

1:05:01

something better assess assess

1:05:03

assess assess the the was i deserves

1:05:06

that still the pursuit is a natural

1:05:09

one of course you want to find your own thing

1:05:11

i'm wondering also just as we're

1:05:13

finishing up to since we're finishing of being

1:05:16

a couple just this is for people

1:05:18

listening who they themselves

1:05:20

in organization or

1:05:22

working for companies were under

1:05:24

a lot of divorces because the companies

1:05:27

be more than anything else and

1:05:29

so you need to go to the company a holiday

1:05:31

party and not the christmas thing happening

1:05:33

in your home how ten couple

1:05:35

sort of second with each other even though you're really

1:05:37

not allowed to do that to

1:05:40

a certain degree and preserve

1:05:42

what they have new able to

1:05:45

do is that it takes the her

1:05:47

to do it near have to kind of work against

1:05:50

the system that's in place and

1:05:52

be defiant air really

1:05:54

good way actually

1:05:55

so how are you able to do it for the two

1:05:57

of you

1:05:58

did our recovery

1:05:59

in just remaining together

1:06:02

even though

1:06:02

the forces word

1:06:04

i think trying to make you be

1:06:07

at odds with each other

1:06:08

i mean for me it was

1:06:10

take a movie her are tough times but

1:06:12

i don't know the the tough times

1:06:14

we had we wouldn't have them kind of anyway

1:06:17

as a couple you know so

1:06:19

i kind of recognize that sure

1:06:21

you marry emerged someone's character you don't

1:06:24

mary really i think

1:06:26

too much more than that i mean that

1:06:28

was never in doubt for me and will

1:06:31

far much more going for us

1:06:33

the assault was worse nurturing and

1:06:35

keeping him mm a family

1:06:37

and i was right

1:06:38

right

1:06:39

though it sounds like there was this sunday should already

1:06:42

have you no matter how they were gonna

1:06:44

pay

1:06:44

you know sarah or want

1:06:47

you to see her or have her sears

1:06:48

the and vice versa with you you still

1:06:51

had a sense of

1:06:51

she was and her character

1:06:55

and also ritual fuck them yeah

1:06:57

right

1:06:58

i mean like that's kind of right

1:07:00

come from fuck them you don't get to do that new

1:07:02

don't know to understand the family and not going to throw

1:07:04

in a building and i'm stronger than you

1:07:06

and you didn't happen to us we

1:07:09

happens you you being the calls before

1:07:11

and she for nurse i happened to you sir

1:07:14

have happened to you you didn't happen to us

1:07:16

he lied to us we say that out took

1:07:18

allowed to collateralized with your jail

1:07:20

and your where you belong because of us

1:07:23

so i like them

1:07:25

apples

1:07:26

live

1:07:28

feather delays is about the truth

1:07:30

the i don't have to read framing say yeah

1:07:32

i mean maybe you've got the first pension and

1:07:35

i didn't know it but you're in jail right

1:07:37

now in a small cell fighting

1:07:39

for your life where exactly where you belong i

1:07:41

helped to either so

1:07:43

there's that

1:07:45

there is that adds very satisfied yeah

1:07:47

it says as saying i think also

1:07:49

for me i'd say like really putting

1:07:51

in the effort to like with both done

1:07:53

a lot of therapy were in couples counseling

1:07:56

there's work that needs to happen

1:07:58

and has been happening to do the program

1:08:00

like i said at the beginning like the thing around needs

1:08:03

and like expressing and emotions and

1:08:05

how to relate and a healthy way that something we

1:08:07

needed to learn or family has

1:08:09

and we're still learning take

1:08:11

so many that was for india was set up for india

1:08:13

there when we joined maxime were both a time

1:08:15

that type of people who wanted to evolve and

1:08:18

grow and unfortunately that to go bad

1:08:20

turned but we're still those people are still

1:08:22

willing to have to look at the us at

1:08:24

at the same time with that to be like we want to

1:08:26

have all but we also want to embrace who we

1:08:28

are and love ourselves and love each other

1:08:31

and not be so like hard on ourselves because i think

1:08:33

that's such a big part of next to him and most cops

1:08:35

are you have to feel like shit at some level to

1:08:37

keep buying into the system i

1:08:39

think when if he's been really great least

1:08:42

for me i say as like many needy okay being happy

1:08:44

and and and me reminding him

1:08:46

that he can enjoy his success

1:08:48

i struggle that before he went into this right

1:08:51

now is now in word editing work for that

1:08:53

went into even when i was successful i felt like

1:08:55

i always had to be more and then that's always the problem

1:08:57

with people who are kind of on that having

1:08:59

a family of force you to slow down and take inventory

1:09:02

and recognize your in abundance has been a guest

1:09:05

and some muscle yet and nurtured same way muscle

1:09:07

the one that wants to be better than

1:09:09

us of so

1:09:10

one of our family matter that matters is turn

1:09:13

your attitude into gratitude

1:09:15

that are negatives in a positive

1:09:17

yeah make lemons make some lemonade

1:09:19

yeah exactly right in enacting

1:09:21

you know people like keith and others are really

1:09:23

thieves mean they take away and

1:09:26

so thieves really should be in jail

1:09:29

or bid to kept away from society

1:09:31

basically so they can keep doing it because

1:09:33

oftentimes his personality doesn't learn

1:09:36

like i don't think that she is there i'm

1:09:38

assuming he's not there being self reflective

1:09:40

he's just mad that he was

1:09:42

yeah now stop i'm sure he's finding

1:09:44

his weight is still manipulate the people

1:09:46

around him kids that is is currency and

1:09:48

sort of that that's a skill base

1:09:50

but why you didn't let him

1:09:53

take away from you is really important piece

1:09:55

and that's why you're still together and that's

1:09:58

why you're still developing

1:09:59

growling and he know he couldn't

1:10:02

take that away from you either see the

1:10:04

rails it and it is where ,

1:10:06

had to do it sort of his way and now you've

1:10:08

taken that that with his really

1:10:10

good to reclaim to reclaim

1:10:13

your path to reclaim your relationship

1:10:15

your trust of each other and all

1:10:17

of that you know just get it all back and

1:10:19

not let someone be a thief yes

1:10:21

and to thing that to thing that we did to reclaim

1:10:24

one is that every he wrote original wedding

1:10:26

vows though at at our five

1:10:28

year anniversary we renewed our vows in front

1:10:30

of our front of us a small audience of our dear

1:10:32

friends which is very reclaiming and

1:10:35

we also i also had mice my scar

1:10:37

remove my brand from it had

1:10:39

, surgery and that was

1:10:41

a very powerful decision for me i needed

1:10:43

it for the first few years as proof the

1:10:45

evidence was on my body and

1:10:48

i think you know ultimately oh god

1:10:50

for you know nippy

1:10:52

standing by me during the most dramatic

1:10:55

worst time of my life and not

1:10:57

leaving when leaving think she's probably assume

1:10:59

that if he put his initial than initial married woman's body

1:11:01

that woman's body be enough for a man to be a success

1:11:04

and nippy didn't and i

1:11:06

think you know i i i married

1:11:08

his character also and that that strength

1:11:10

and that solidarity is is unshakable

1:11:12

so yeah keepers runs

1:11:14

and here we are

1:11:16

the way to knock the shit out

1:11:20

they said i'd take the subject sixty

1:11:22

years off and service i'll keep

1:11:24

the five years probation

1:11:26

yeah have of them

1:11:27

goalkeeper for

1:11:29

, at the end of yeah yeah

1:11:32

sizing right and smith

1:11:34

and sarah that observer powerful

1:11:36

and you're right be couldn't

1:11:38

you couldn't take that away from me and

1:11:41

he couldn't claim you so

1:11:43

good and so that that the two of you

1:11:45

were able to weather the

1:11:47

storm my things than eating

1:11:49

those or anything mansour this her

1:11:52

her the that the nice thing to know

1:11:54

cause you learn you learn about strength

1:11:57

of a relationship when you go through

1:11:59

something

1:11:59

together and look where you are so

1:12:02

however it's really nice pieces and

1:12:05

oh thank you know it's been a pleasure

1:12:07

to to talk to both of you pleasure

1:12:09

pleasure

1:12:09

thanks you racial and

1:12:11

we say we could do for our so you'll have to come

1:12:13

on our podcast next week's episode

1:12:15

nice okay sir sir sounds like a

1:12:17

plant some , there are

1:12:19

, good to see both of you

1:12:21

and get to know more about your story

1:12:24

and i'm so happy that you are where you are

1:12:26

now and your kids are lucky to have

1:12:28

you as models as parent the

1:12:30

means a lot

1:12:32

rachel imagine

1:12:34

yourself walking into walking for

1:12:37

you can see the path and the

1:12:39

green

1:12:40

hi above you

1:12:41

the air's chris

1:12:43

you are walking towards your happy place

1:12:46

allegedly allegedly sant

1:12:48

with me

1:12:49

anything said here i'll miss podcast

1:12:51

about a legit calls a legit i'm alem

1:12:53

schemes a legit do staggering

1:12:56

mind factory criminality spiritual

1:12:58

fraud or the like is offered

1:13:00

purely as commentary because

1:13:03

the views and opinions expressed on

1:13:05

a little bit coffee do not necessarily

1:13:07

reflect on official policy for position

1:13:10

of the podcast and any content

1:13:12

provided by i guess floggers

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their opinion and are not intended

1:13:19

to malign any religion through club

1:13:21

organization business individual

1:13:24

any one

1:13:25

or anything so just let these

1:13:27

words dressed into your mind without

1:13:29

needing to focus on any of them you

1:13:31

are great you are capable

1:13:34

you deserve to be happy nobody's

1:13:36

mad at you in left you're actually

1:13:38

a narcissistic coffee criminal that

1:13:41

you had that shit out don't

1:13:44

be a facade but if that's not you

1:13:47

again you are great you are

1:13:49

capable you deserve to be

1:13:51

happy eliminate copy

1:13:53

love you

1:13:57

thanks again everyone's for missing and

1:13:59

rachel bernstein

1:13:59

there had a party notes

1:14:01

won't see you next week but keep checking

1:14:03

that feed and see if maybe there's a summer

1:14:05

bonus phone as bonus before we start

1:14:08

season five no guarantees take

1:14:11

care of their guys abrahamic guys abrahamic summer

1:14:13

why

1:14:24

let's

1:14:29

keep the conversation going flu vaccine

1:14:32

with more episodes of a little bit

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cozy with more experts and survivors

1:14:36

and sometimes experts who are survivors

1:14:38

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