0:01

Hi, this is Kia. Money scams

0:03

seem like a part of everyday life now and

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something we must be constantly on the lookout for.

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Scammers are getting smarter and have plenty

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of clever ways to con people out of their cash.

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And it's young people that are most likely to be scammed.

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Welcome to another episode of a Little Bit Richer,

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brought to you by my friends at Legal & General.

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Here to keep us on High Alert is Head of Fraud Risk

0:23

Management at Santander Chris Ainsley.

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So Chris, aren't scams something that happened

0:29

more to older people?

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Scammers don't discriminate. Scams can happen

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to anyone of any age. And

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what we find is that lots of people think that

0:37

the scam will never happen to them. They think they're immune

0:39

to it, it's not going to happen to them. Typically,

0:42

we'll see younger people contacting us

0:44

in relation to three main types of scams.

0:46

The first is where they've seen something on social

0:49

media, on a marketplace and have made a purchase and

0:51

that's never turned up. They're often luxury goods,

0:54

electronics, shoes, jewelry.

0:57

Sometimes it's pets and even up to

0:59

the value of something like a car. But,

1:01

there are also other types of scams which aren't just

1:03

about you losing your money. They can involve you becoming

1:06

part of a crime. So, what we call money mules,

1:08

that's where someone ends up essentially

1:10

getting the money for their criminals and giving it to them into

1:13

their own bank account. And that's really common.

1:15

We find people being recruited on social media.

1:17

There's hashtags that they'll follow and get- rich- quick

1:19

type schemes. But also, what

1:21

we call impersonation scams are a big problem for younger

1:24

people. And that's basically the kind of scam where

1:26

you might see you've got a fake text message and

1:28

you put your details into it. And then someone will call you

1:30

and pretend to be from maybe a bank, maybe

1:32

the police, and trick you into moving

1:34

your money somewhere you wouldn't usually. And younger people who

1:36

are more engaged with technology or on social

1:38

media are probably more likely to be victims

1:40

of those kinds of frauds than older people.

1:42

I completely agree. I've been getting a lot of scam

1:44

text messages and emails and I know

1:47

that it's a big thing. Like you mentioned, social media

1:49

is where I've seen the vast majority. But,

1:51

I want to touch on one that you mentioned is

1:53

money mules. Now, I

1:55

am, I guess I'm classed as Gen Z, and I'm

1:57

in that audience. And I've seen a lot of people,

2:00

like you said, this get- rich- quick thing, make

2:02

quick money, just take money into your bank

2:04

account and you can have a cut. But,

2:06

could you give us an example of what a money

2:09

mule looks like?

2:10

Yeah. Sure. If we focus on the get- rich-

2:12

quick type of thing first, I think one

2:14

of those things that people might be often

2:16

looking for is a side hustle.

2:18

Or something where they're going to make a little bit more

2:20

extra money to pay for those extra things that ... Their

2:23

bills are costing more, et cetera, et cetera. And

2:26

if you're on online, there's two

2:28

kind of things you might end up getting involved with.

2:31

The first might be some kind of investment scam,

2:33

where basically you end up giving someone your money

2:35

thinking you're going to get a bigger return and you get nothing.

2:38

That often involves things like high- return crypto

2:40

scams, things like that. And I see those all over social

2:42

media. The other one is whether criminals

2:45

use you and your bank account. And that is

2:47

really a problem. So, they might have posted

2:49

lots of images of loads of cash or whatever else.

2:52

But, essentially what they're trying to do is use you to

2:54

hide their crime. So, instead of getting

2:56

money paid into the organized criminal's bank accounts,

2:58

which they don't have anyway, they'll use

3:00

a lot of people to receive smaller

3:02

amounts of money and you might be able to give them

3:04

the cash. You might be asked to buy things and give it to them.

3:06

You might be asked to even give them access

3:09

to your bank account, give them your card or give your online banking

3:11

details. And what you'll find is you

3:14

may think you are working for them, you may think

3:16

you've got a job or you may think you're going to get a cut

3:18

of whatever's happening. What you end up

3:20

doing is, essentially, committing a criminal offense.

3:22

And being a money mule is essentially

3:24

a money laundering offense, which if you look at

3:27

it, it's up to 14 years in prison.

3:28

Wow!

3:29

And that is irrespective of

3:31

the value of what ends up happening. So, every

3:33

fraud we see, every scam that involves moving money

3:35

from one bank account to another has to have

3:37

one of those money mules. And therefore the

3:39

criminals are always looking for new ones.

3:41

Mm- hmm. It's the criminal offense part.

3:43

I think that's what a lot of people don't realize

3:46

or don't maybe take as seriously. For

3:48

example, when I was at university, I had a few friends

3:51

and everyone's strapped for cash. When you're in university, you don't have much

3:53

money. But, they were approached by

3:55

some guys that we knew to,

3:57

like you said, use your bank account. If you want to

3:59

transfer some money over and you send it back to us and you

4:01

keep a cut. And I remember we had this conversation

4:03

and I told everyone, " I don't think it's a good idea. I know

4:05

we're all strapped for cash, but I don't think it's a good idea." They

4:08

went ahead with it and it turns out that

4:10

not only did they take in the money, but the guys who

4:12

they gave access to the account to ... The girl? Her parents had been

4:15

saving for her and they stole all her savings

4:18

out of her account, which was just ... It was terrible.

4:20

Yeah. And I think that the problem you've got there is the minimum

4:23

that's going to happen is you're going to lose access to your bank account. And

4:25

actually, in reality, you may lose access

4:27

to any kind of bank account or financial

4:29

service for maybe as long as

4:32

six years, if you end up being reported

4:34

as a mule. And the most that can happen

4:36

really is some kind of criminal offense. But, you'll also

4:38

potentially get involved with some

4:40

horrible serious organized criminals, who'll be doing

4:42

other things behind that. And it might be as simple as you think you're

4:44

giving away the £1, 000 that

4:46

you receive, but where's that money going? What's

4:48

it involved with? Once it's entering their criminal

4:51

hands, it's probably funding drugs,

4:54

guns, knives, whatever else is going

4:56

on, up to serious levels of

4:58

criminality, because it's then become essentially

5:01

the proceeds of a crime.

5:02

Yes. Absolutely. I'm glad that we're raising awareness

5:04

of this. But, let's move on to something you touched on a little

5:06

bit earlier and it's buying things online.

5:08

We see all the shiny things on social media,

5:10

it looks great. And like you said, you might be wanting to buy

5:13

trainers, a new car. And sometimes you see things

5:15

and you're like, " This is a really good price. I'm going to buy

5:17

this because it's cheaper than what I've seen elsewhere." What

5:19

are some of the warning signs that we should be aware

5:21

of when we're shopping and buying things online?

5:23

I think in general, a lot of people, if they're looking for something

5:25

online, if they know what they're going

5:27

to buy and it's something regular, they might go to an online

5:30

site, Amazon, wherever. And that's

5:32

something they can get straight away. If they want something that's

5:34

maybe a bit more expensive, the second-

5:37

hand option is so much more obvious than ever was

5:39

before. You can go to social media

5:41

marketplaces and you can have a look

5:43

and you can find a bargain. The

5:45

problem with that is the criminals know that as well. And

5:49

in reality, those

5:51

marketplaces, especially the Facebook marketplace,

5:53

are for local purchases, right? They're absolutely

5:55

brilliant and I've bought things off there

5:58

and I've gone and picked them up and you can get some brilliant

6:00

stuff. The problem is the criminals know

6:02

that, and what they will do is, they might take

6:04

over someone's profile so it looks like a genuine person.

6:07

They'll then post a lot of things on there for

6:09

sale that people really want. That might be things

6:12

that are lower price than everything else. So,

6:14

if you search high to low or whatever else you

6:16

do when you're looking for these things online. And

6:18

what they'll ask you to do is pay by a bank transfer. So,

6:21

if you think when you're shopping on Amazon or wherever else you're putting

6:23

your card details in, you've got the protection of, and you

6:25

can raise that with your bank. If you end up

6:27

making a payment that you're essentially giving them

6:30

as if you're giving cash, but you do it from your bank, you've

6:32

got no idea who you're paying. You've

6:34

got no real idea if you're ever going to receive those goods. You're not

6:37

dealing with a company or dealing with another person. And

6:39

also you can't really check reviews

6:41

of a person selling you something on a marketplace.

6:44

When we've done research, and we did some very specific

6:46

research ourselves into cars

6:48

that were posted on Facebook, so we're not talking £ 100 for

6:51

a phone, we're talking-

6:52

A lot of money.

6:52

... thousands of pounds for cars. And

6:55

in just 35 minutes, my team

6:57

found 4, 000 fake car adverts.

7:00

4, 000?

7:01

Yeah,. 4,000. And what we did essentially was,

7:03

we almost looked for every single car that you would search for, Volkswagen

7:05

Golf, Mini Cooper. All those cars,

7:07

put them in. We looked for the cheapest ones

7:10

and then we looked at the details. And often

7:12

the details of the car didn't match. They said they were electric

7:14

when they weren't. They're all massively under priced.

7:17

If you looked at another site, where you'd buy cars.

7:19

Often thousands of pounds under priced, so they're

7:21

always the cheapest. And then, when we were

7:24

interacting with the poster of the

7:26

car, what we found is they often had 10 or 12

7:28

cars posted, some of them had hundreds. All

7:30

of them had a straightforward, they came straight back

7:32

to you on the marketplace giving you an email address to write to.

7:35

And almost every single one of them then told you that car

7:37

was in storage, it was being auctioned. If

7:39

you agreed to pay that price now and you sent it to

7:41

them via bank transfer, often to

7:43

an account in a business name that was

7:45

unrelated in any way to the actual seller, you

7:48

could get the car delivered to you and you had a 10- day

7:51

(inaudible) . So, there was fake guarantee documents. But, there was

7:53

4, 000 of those that we found and almost every

7:55

car you could imagine. And they were all posted in the local

7:57

area as well.

7:57

That's so mind- blowing. 4, 000

7:59

just shows you how many

8:02

fake ads are out there. And something is

8:04

expensive as a car, but which your first car you're upgrading,

8:07

that is a lot of money to

8:09

put down on anything.

8:10

And on those car scams, when we looked at our own customers

8:12

that reported to us, about 20%

8:14

of all those customers that had reported a car

8:16

scam of some description like that to us were under the age

8:18

of 25. 20%. So, that's because there was

8:21

a £ 3, 000 price for a car that might be

8:23

8, 000, 9,000, 10,000. So, they

8:25

thought they were getting a really good price. And in reality

8:27

the advice that we would give them is, if you haven't sat

8:30

in the car, test driven it, don't pay out any

8:32

money.

8:32

Absolutely. I I don't have an example as

8:34

big as that, but a few months ago

8:37

I was looking to buy a new laptop. I

8:39

was buying a gaming laptop. And I'd gone online

8:41

and I'd found one. I said, " Okay. That's the one I want to get," and

8:44

I was still just double checking. And then

8:46

my dad said, " Check and see how many they're selling," and when

8:48

we went to see how many (inaudible) was selling, there was

8:51

tons, so many. And they're all

8:53

very similar descriptions. And then, that's when we realized actually

8:55

this doesn't feel like a genuine seller, so we had to go

8:57

somewhere else. But, like I said, it's all about the due diligence, because

8:59

I wouldn't have bought that one straight away. But, if I hadn't,

9:01

I'd just seen it and bought it, I could have fallen victim

9:04

to that as well.

9:04

Yeah. And I think one of the things is, it's

9:06

not just when you're buying things off those sites as well. If

9:09

you're selling stuff ... And

9:11

I've posted ridiculous things like a

9:14

phone or some old baby equipment or whatever

9:16

else. You will end up being

9:18

attacked by the scammers on that as well. So, they'll be

9:20

asking, " Can you send it to me? Can you pay for

9:22

this insurance product, because I'm going to get someone to come and collect

9:24

it." So, it's not just when you are buying

9:26

things off there, you've got to be careful. If you're also selling things,

9:29

you might end up losing money and also not selling the thing

9:31

in the first place, because again, it's a real

9:33

common scam that we're seeing, where customers have been asked

9:35

to buy things or pay for extra shipping,

9:38

or whatever, to send to someone, even

9:40

for a low- value item.

9:41

Gosh, there's a lot to be aware of. But, let me just circle back to something

9:43

you touched on earlier, and that's impersonation scams.

9:45

So, what should we be on the lookout

9:47

for if we receive calls or someone

9:50

gets in touch with us pretending to be someone that they're actually

9:52

not?

9:52

Yeah. So, I think on impersonation scam,

9:54

and if we focus in on what the

9:57

fraudsters are really trying to do when they're pretending to be a bank,

9:59

for example. So, we see

10:01

impersonation scams pretending to be mobile phone companies,

10:03

the police, the HMRC.

10:05

But, if we look at the ones that affect the banks, which

10:07

is probably the most common ones, because they want to get into

10:10

your bank account, they are usually

10:12

someone calling you and saying that your account is somehow

10:14

compromised. Your account's been defrauded,

10:16

someone's trying to get in. They might have sent you a fake text

10:18

message. And what I try to explain

10:21

to people is usually that's come off the back of

10:23

you unwittingly having given away your information

10:25

to them in some way. So, what we've

10:28

found is ... This is through work we've done with the police and

10:30

our own research, is that

10:32

most of those type of scams where someone's calling

10:34

you pretending to be from your bank actually relate

10:36

back to another scam that people probably are very much

10:39

aware of, which is you getting these fake text

10:41

messages saying they're from delivery companies. And I've had like six-

10:43

Same.

10:43

... in the last couple of weeks. They're obviously at

10:45

it again, these criminals. And

10:48

most of those ask you for some very

10:50

simple information and they'll literally

10:52

just ask you, " Your parcel hasn't been delivered,

10:55

put in your postcard and your name. We'll check it." And

10:57

they'll do a fake screen. Sometimes they might then ask you for your card

10:59

number just to pay for something. And from that information

11:01

they know enough about you to give you a call. So,

11:04

if you put in your card number, the first few numbers

11:06

of that card will tell you who you bank with. Won't

11:08

even need to ask your bank account number or your bank name. They can

11:10

tell that from that. They've got your name, your address,

11:12

your postcode, maybe your date of birth, whatever else you've given

11:14

them. And then they'll call you. So, they

11:16

don't do anything else. All they need is that information

11:18

to then call you and pretend to be your bank

11:21

or someone else. And they might even say, " Oh, have you

11:23

received any fake text messages?" Or, " Have you done this as part

11:25

of that scam?" And then what will happen

11:27

is they will do whatever they can to get your money

11:30

out of you. And often that takes the form

11:32

of them saying, " Right. We need you to secure your account.

11:34

Move money out of it. Make a payment.

11:37

Change your limit. Do this. Give me your card

11:39

number," whatever else. And it'll depend on

11:41

who you bank with and how many accounts you've got and how much money

11:43

they think you've got. But, in reality,

11:45

if someone ever phones you, saying they're from

11:47

your bank, your bank won't

11:50

ask you to move any money. Your bank won't ask

11:52

you to log onto your online banking and check. Your

11:54

bank certainly won't ask you what your bank balance is, because

11:56

they know. They won't be working

11:58

with other banks. They won't be working directly with

12:00

the police or whatever other story is being spun.

12:03

And we've set up a specific phone line

12:05

for customers to know they can call their bank just really

12:07

simply. So, if you just dial 159

12:09

from your phone and you choose

12:11

which of your banks is, it'll put you straight through. So, if you get

12:13

one of those phone calls, you

12:15

can literally put the phone down on whoever it is.

12:18

That's always great, because the bank won't mind

12:20

if it's real. They'll think you're doing the right thing. And

12:23

literally you can dial 159 and choose your bank

12:25

and go through to directly and say, " Have you called me? Is there a

12:27

problem? Have you sent me a text message?" So,

12:29

that's how that scan works. And

12:31

the thing is, it doesn't work every time, but they're

12:33

doing it thousands of times. They're sending out thousands of

12:36

those text messages. Everybody I've ever met has

12:38

had one of those delivery scams-

12:38

Yes.

12:38

... in the same way as everyone I've ever met

12:41

has had one of those, " Hi, Mum," " Hi, Dad,"

12:43

WhatsApp messages or whatever else. And same idea.

12:46

Pretend to be someone else, ask you to make a payment.

12:48

And if you are moving money from your

12:50

account, you really need to be sure no one's ever going

12:52

to ask you to move money. No one's ever going to ask you

12:54

for that kind of payment. So, that's the simple

12:56

advice really on that one.

12:57

Absolutely. So, it's really important for us to be vigilant.

13:00

So, off the back of that now, how

13:02

can our listeners be careful and ensure

13:04

that they don't risk losing

13:06

any money? Because we've heard a lot of these scams and some

13:08

of them are very sophisticated as you said,

13:11

and you can't always spot it. But, how can our listeners make

13:13

sure that they're being very careful and not risking

13:15

anything?

13:16

If you're talking about buying something, it's always,

13:18

if it's too good to be true, it might well be. So, we've

13:20

seen lots of different types of scams on those social media

13:23

marketplaces. If you're thinking, " That looks really good,"

13:25

if you're buying off that kind of place, make sure it's for local

13:27

pickup. So, if it's in your local area,

13:30

go and have a look at it and make sure it's what you want. And you will still

13:32

find the bargains. We're not saying you can ignore the bargains-

13:34

We are not saying all the bargains are fake.

13:36

In no way, and I've done it. So, it's not

13:38

that they don't exist. What I would say

13:40

is on the other types of frauds

13:42

that you see, especially those impersonation scams,

13:45

they'll try and rush you. They'll try and make

13:47

you concerned that there's something going wrong, that your bank

13:49

account's being compromised. And let's be honest,

13:51

if your bank account has been compromised in some

13:53

way and your bank needs to get hold of you, they

13:56

can message you. You'll see it in your

13:58

mobile app, if you've got that. You'll see it on your online banking.

14:01

They'll literally be able to deal with everything for

14:03

you and they won't rush you. They won't ask you to make payments

14:05

or any of that kind of stuff. And nor will anyone else.

14:08

The police aren't going to phone you and do that, Amazon

14:10

or whoever else the fraudsters like to impersonate

14:13

aren't going to do that sort of thing. And I think one

14:15

of the things about buying things, or

14:17

making any payments is, if you're making a payment

14:19

from your bank account, you should know what it's for. If

14:22

you feel that someone's asking you to do that

14:24

and you don't know why you'd be doing, it's

14:26

not right. So, everything that goes in and out your

14:28

account, you should know 100% what it is. And

14:30

if you don't, you query it and you query it with your bank,

14:33

not the person who just phoned you. But,

14:35

taking a short break and thinking before you make any

14:37

payment is always what you do. I know people are feeling, especially

14:40

when they're being manipulated by the criminal,

14:42

that's a problem. You need to take a step back and

14:44

think, " Is this what's really happening?" Scammers

14:46

are everywhere. Always take a think before you respond

14:48

to anything.

14:49

Absolutely. So could you give

14:51

us three top tips for our listeners

14:54

who maybe feel like they may have

14:56

been scammed already?

14:57

Yeah. So, I think the first one is

15:00

you're not going to be alone. So, if you want

15:02

to have a chat with someone else, close family

15:04

friend, brother, sister, whoever, just

15:07

to say, " This has happened to me or this is going on,

15:09

what do you think?" Always the first thing to do,

15:11

take advice. Speak to someone else, share

15:14

your problem. And then, essentially,

15:16

if there is a problem and it involves your bank

15:18

or some money, phone them straight away and explain

15:21

what's happened. And actually when you are

15:23

going to talk to them, make sure you tell them absolutely

15:25

everything as to what's happened. Don't be worried about

15:28

not telling them that you did something or you think what you've done

15:30

is going to cause a problem in the future. If you tell them

15:32

absolutely everything that's happened, it'll be managed.

15:34

That means that you can limit whatever ... They'll

15:36

give you material, they'll tell you what's happened, they'll explain

15:38

what's gone on. Because most people that have ended

15:41

up in a situation where a criminal's manipulating

15:43

them, or whatever the word we want to use is, they don't

15:46

really understand what's going on. They're being pushed

15:48

through on a journey and engineered by the fraudster.

15:50

If you break that chain, speak to your bank and they'll

15:52

tell you what's going on. So, that's probably the best three bits

15:54

of advice.

15:55

Amazing. Thank you so much, Chris. I like the fact that you ended

15:57

on just being transparent. I think sometimes if you

16:00

have gone through that and you have done something, you can feel silly-

16:02

(inaudible) And that's for those. Any

16:04

of those fraud types, or any (inaudible) impersonator scam

16:06

or the purchase or especially

16:08

in the money mule situation, if

16:10

people are clearer about telling

16:13

you what's gone on, it can be sorted much quicker.

16:15

Absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for joining us.

16:17

No problem at all.

16:17

This episode has been

16:19

full of knowledge and I think hopefully our

16:21

listeners have learned a lot and are now going to

16:23

be on the lookout for any scams that may be coming their

16:26

way.

16:26

Fantastic.

16:27

Next time we are diving into workplace pensions

16:29

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