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to catch up on the latest

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episodes without the ads. Hello,

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I'm David Badeal. And I'm Saeed Afasi.

0:32

And welcome to a Muslim and a

0:34

Jew Go There. And we're back talking

0:36

about our core issues of anti-Semitism and

0:39

Islamophobia this week. We're going

0:41

to begin by talking about what I'm

0:43

going to call hashtag Gideon Fultigate and

0:45

the whole scenario of the various

0:48

videos that have been circulating on

0:50

the internet of that incident

0:52

and what it means for policing. And

0:54

we're also going to be

0:57

talking about a video that's

0:59

circulating about an alleged anti-Muslim

1:01

racist stroke Islamophobic incident in

1:03

London, where most of

1:05

the things the perpetrator told

1:08

two women who looked like

1:10

they had been to a

1:12

peace march, a pro-Palestinian march,

1:15

he told them to excuse my

1:17

language, fuck off back to Muslim.

1:19

And we're also going to be talking about

1:21

yet another report about Islamophobia

1:23

by a think tank who keeps

1:25

telling us that we shouldn't have

1:27

a definition for Islamophobia. So I

1:29

think the big themes aren't they

1:31

today, David, are going to be

1:34

what is and what isn't anti-Semitism

1:36

and what isn't Islamophobia? Yeah, I'm pretty sure

1:38

that fuck off back to Muslim is Islamophobic. I

1:40

mean, you know, I'm not a Muslim, but I'm

1:42

going to put my cards on the table, Saeeda,

1:44

and say I'm pretty sure that qualifies. I

1:46

was going to say these are really serious incidents,

1:48

right? But I can't help but laugh at the

1:51

ignorance. I would say that the one thing

1:53

worse than a racist is actually a thick

1:55

racist. I remember when, you know, it's like

1:57

you being called the P word, you know.

2:00

and it's like the EDL using the

2:02

word Muslimics. So yeah, so

2:04

the Muslimics are being told to f off back to

2:06

Muslim, whatever that is. It is serious. At the same

2:08

time, racism is always

2:11

hilarious because it's always stupid

2:13

and it's always absurd. And

2:15

so there's no harm in

2:17

laughing at a man who says fuck off

2:19

back to Muslim, as well as saying that

2:21

he's a twat. Let's talk about someone else

2:24

who's possibly a bit of a

2:26

twat. We'll be discussing more or less

2:28

that, which is this person who's become

2:30

kind of famous in the last week

2:32

or so, certainly online, which is this

2:34

man Gideon Falter. Now we have discussed

2:36

him before. We should probably say this

2:39

in full transparency that a couple of

2:41

podcasts ago, the campaign against anti-Semitism, which

2:43

he runs, did have a go at USAINA.

2:45

So we should probably say that upfront in

2:47

terms of any opinions we may give about

2:49

him and his behaviour. Yeah, I agree. And

2:51

I think in some ways, I'm now in

2:54

a great company because the campaign against anti-Semitism

2:56

have had a go at SADIC-KARN, have had

2:58

a go at ME, have now had a

3:01

go at the Met Police, the Met Commissioner,

3:03

Dame Margaret Hodge, the daughter of a Holocaust

3:05

survivor, Lord MAM, the government's advisor on anti-Semitism.

3:07

So they do have a history of having

3:10

a go. And I think

3:12

what this incident is about is

3:14

what was Gideon Falter, just a

3:16

man walking through London, visibly Jewish,

3:18

and got caught up in this,

3:21

or was he out there having a go?

3:24

Let's go over it very quickly. Most

3:26

people may know about it, but let's

3:28

very quickly go over what happened. Gideon

3:30

Falter, in his capacity, I think, as

3:32

head of the campaign against anti-Semitism, who

3:34

were the organisation who organised the sole

3:38

march that has happened in London, which

3:40

is not a march in favour of

3:42

Palestinian solidarity, but a march that was

3:45

called against anti-Semitism that I did attend,

3:47

that organisation, which he

3:49

runs, released a video on their

3:51

Twitter feed, which was basically him

3:54

saying and showing that he'd

3:56

gone to one of these marches, and I

3:58

actually watched his original... video, I don't know if

4:00

anyone else watched that, in which he sort

4:02

of presented the film, in which he

4:05

said he'd just gone to synagogue and then

4:07

doing what he suggested he always does,

4:10

I think there's an issue there but we'll come back to it, he

4:12

just went for a walk with his

4:14

friends wearing his yarmulke which is the

4:16

same as a kipper. It's basically the

4:18

skull cap that religious Jews wear and

4:21

just happened to bump in to a Palestine

4:24

march and that's when the police

4:26

stopped him according to him and

4:29

wouldn't let him sort of just

4:31

walk across the road and

4:33

the famous bit of the video that he showed

4:35

is a police officer saying to him that he

4:38

can't walk across the road in the face of

4:40

these protesters because he is openly

4:43

Jewish. And what has

4:45

subsequently come to light is a

4:47

13 minute video and I would

4:49

urge listeners to go and watch

4:51

that 13 minute video because I

4:53

think it gives a much broader

4:55

context of what happened on that

4:57

day. But obviously off

4:59

the back of this encounter accusations

5:01

of anti-Semitism were made which resulted

5:03

in an apology from the Met

5:05

police which was then deleted and

5:07

then a further apology to the

5:09

apology was put out. Just

5:11

to be clear what happened there, they posted

5:13

a very long apology in which they say

5:16

the use of the term openly Jewish by

5:18

one of our officers is hugely regrettable and

5:21

it was a poor choice of words, all

5:23

that stuff. But then they say in recent

5:25

weeks we've seen a new trend emerge with

5:27

those opposed to the main protest appearing along

5:29

the route that says the fact that the

5:31

people who do this filming themselves, they must

5:33

know that their presence is provocative like they're

5:35

inviting response and that's increasing the likelihood of

5:37

an altercation and making it much likely that

5:40

officers will intervene. So I think I need to

5:42

bring that up because that is the statement that

5:44

they then deleted following Outrage

5:47

or whatever protests on Twitter mainly from

5:49

Jews saying that essentially they were apologizing

5:51

but not apologizing as some people do.

5:53

When they apologize, they say oh, I'm

5:55

sorry about this But and then there's

5:57

much more. Off to the but. Than

6:00

double the but. ah and so the second

6:02

apology was a bit more just like we're

6:04

sorry and you know we should have done

6:06

this and we hoped have the confidence of

6:08

Jewish and Londoners they've apologize for the able

6:10

to do is pets but you know they're

6:12

trying to do their best to police London,

6:14

so that is I think where we all.

6:16

As we speak. Gets. Nothing

6:19

for me in this story that

6:21

are number of questions that we

6:23

need to be asking David Ones

6:25

who is Gideon Fall to S

6:27

and who are the campaign against

6:29

Anti Semitism and competitors and Semitism

6:31

Say on their own material that

6:33

that aim is to tackle quote

6:35

anti semitism disguised as anti Israel

6:37

public discourse and quote and with

6:39

dealt with it in a previous

6:41

podcast. But it is really interesting

6:43

that the connections that they have

6:45

to organizations like the Jewish National

6:47

Fund. Which is a charity

6:49

which is involved with land

6:52

development and it's association with

6:54

settlements in Israel for also

6:56

organizations like has so much

6:58

as sad as I hope

7:00

of pronounced that right which

7:02

is an an organization in

7:04

Israel about whom an investigation

7:06

was published by How Reds

7:08

and Israeli newspaper which found

7:10

that the group played a

7:12

key role in defending multiple

7:15

sense that outposts that is

7:17

well documented evidence. Out there

7:19

about their relationship between campaign against

7:21

and semitism. The various people involved

7:23

in campaign against and semitism and

7:26

then leads to Israel including Israeli

7:28

settlements. And so the question is

7:31

is a campaign against and semitism

7:33

campaigning against anti semitism or is

7:35

a campaign against census semitism? Das

7:38

to be pro Israeli and to

7:40

sit down Anything that they consider

7:43

to be pro Palestinian I'm one

7:45

of The concerns that I had

7:47

was. That what Gideon full to was

7:49

trying to do was trying to prove that

7:52

that are no go zones for Jews And

7:54

one of the concerns that I had was

7:56

at this concept of no go zones which

7:58

has been popularized by. One

8:01

a problem and and others is

8:03

an anti muslim. Trope A so so

8:05

he is. What? I think more

8:07

or less. although I am what he

8:09

was our as I speak which is

8:11

the unquestionably Gideon full to need some

8:13

media training or me? I dunno it

8:15

has any when I can think of

8:17

whose comes across quite so bad. these

8:19

both in his own films and he

8:21

to be so I've seen and unquestionably

8:23

the Campaign Against Anti Semitism is pro

8:25

Israel. They have chosen to call themselves

8:27

the Campaign against Anti Semitism. It seems

8:29

to me as far the can make

8:31

out the almost everything they do a

8:33

is involved with the notion. That

8:36

being Jewish involves identifying with

8:38

Israel. And all the rest of it

8:40

I do not agree with you. Really?

8:42

And. I don't agree with you in

8:45

general philosophically that it matters that much

8:47

who they are in this particular case

8:49

because when I think is all that

8:52

is true, he's a a and annoying

8:54

bloke. He's a provocateur. The campaign against

8:56

anti semitism on a bit dodgy, not

8:59

liked by the made seduce establishment, not

9:01

like by the liberties establishment. He

9:04

still did something which I think

9:06

is of budgets and I think

9:08

it's of valley busy bring something

9:10

up whatever the rights and wrongs

9:12

and com o two wrongs in

9:14

how he did it and batteries

9:17

that it is intimidating forties to

9:19

be around those march is if

9:21

they are not and this is

9:23

a key thing. Self professed. Part.

9:26

Of the block of do is keep some

9:28

being brought up by people at Benjamin who

9:30

is director of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. If

9:32

they're not part of the block of jews

9:34

who go along to support the Maltese and

9:36

to be a pro Palestinian jews so it's

9:39

not as simple as just say oh it's

9:41

Faizullah people have It's fine to choose to

9:43

be the marches because looks hear these jews

9:45

who are welcome though the only jews who

9:47

would consider to have the right opinions by

9:49

the marches somebody else And these to be

9:51

said is it is clearly not true that

9:53

didn't fall to just went for war and

9:55

other. why he says stupid things like that

9:58

however to be fair to him he was

10:00

not waving an Israeli flag. He didn't

10:02

go there, you know, shouting as a

10:04

counter protester and trying to say anything

10:07

pro-Israeli. He kind of cosplayed, even though

10:09

that is him, as a Jew who

10:11

happens to be a regular yarmulke. And

10:14

it then seems to me odd that policeman

10:16

felt that in itself was a reason for him

10:18

not to be allowed near the march. If he

10:20

had been, I think you described

10:22

it in a separate conversation we had as being

10:24

like from a different football team, you wouldn't go

10:27

in as a man united fan into a man

10:29

city and that would be true if he

10:32

was waving an Israeli flag and carrying a

10:34

picture of Benjamin Netanyahu as if he was

10:36

a massive fan. He turns up on that

10:38

march just as a Jew with

10:41

a cattle on. As such,

10:43

he should be allowed to cross the

10:45

road. Okay, so I both agree and disagree

10:47

with you. I'll tell you where I agree with you.

10:49

We have to recognise that

10:51

antisemitism is a real issue and a

10:53

growing issue and that there have been

10:56

incidents on these peace marches, very tiny

10:58

amount of incidents, which could be classified

11:00

as antisemitism. Let's just remind

11:02

ourselves again of something that we brought

11:05

up in a previous podcast, that the

11:07

fact that millions and millions of people

11:09

have cumulatively over the last six months

11:11

taken to the streets of the United

11:13

Kingdom in relation to these peace

11:16

protests and yet the number of

11:18

arrests still do not go anywhere near,

11:20

for example, the number of arrests at

11:22

Glastonbury Festival. I think that's

11:24

important to put that out there. However, recognising

11:28

that antisemitism is a real issue,

11:30

I also think we need to

11:33

recognise that there are bad faith

11:35

actors out there who weaponise antisemitism.

11:37

At that point, it is

11:40

important to look at who the

11:42

people are who are making these

11:44

calls of antisemitism. For me, it's

11:46

not just about the campaign against

11:48

antisemitism or Gideon Foulter being pro-Israeli.

11:50

It's their associations with some of

11:52

the most extreme and right-wing

11:54

sections of Israel, for example,

11:56

the organisation that I was

11:59

speaking with. about Hashoma Hashadesh,

12:02

I hope I'm pronouncing that right,

12:04

they amongst others platformed an extreme

12:06

right-wing politician Ben Gavere who is

12:08

by the way a convicted terrorist.

12:11

So I think you have to

12:13

be judged by the company that you keep, you

12:15

have to be judged by the people who fund

12:17

you. I just need to say this David, you

12:19

have to be judged by the people who fund

12:21

you. If people provide your money

12:23

and you provide support for

12:25

them, then I'm sorry. Nothing

12:28

that you've said implies that the campaign

12:30

against anti-Semitism of being, you said they've

12:32

got links with this people who once

12:34

platformed this person, who's a terrible bloke,

12:36

we can do that with everything. I'm

12:38

afraid we could do it with you

12:40

Sayida because you are accused of having

12:43

links to various Muslim organizations that you

12:45

say, but I just happened to

12:47

be there, I was just sitting with these people, etc

12:49

etc. That's not true David,

12:51

that's not true because I actually think

12:54

you have to deal with these on

12:56

a basis of fact and every single

12:58

accusation that's ever been made about me,

13:01

I have either challenged it, openly

13:03

asked to debate it or sue people

13:05

and they've had to back down. I'm

13:07

sure that's true but people still say it about

13:09

you, right, and people will say it about this

13:11

guy, not aware that he's

13:14

actually funded by any of these people. He

13:16

may, you know, there was a picture of

13:18

him standing. No he is David, David

13:20

he is, the campaign against anti-Semitism

13:22

is funded by the Jewish National

13:24

Fund that's on record. All of

13:26

this stuff by the way is

13:28

at the charity commission in company's

13:30

house. This isn't just the JNF. We have to

13:32

be really careful. Yes we do have to be careful.

13:35

The JNF are not this, I've never

13:37

heard of Hammershashamer, which I won't say

13:39

in the right way because I've never

13:41

heard of it. So the point is

13:43

you went through about four different steps

13:46

to get to Ben Gevir, right, and

13:48

that's you can do that with anything.

13:50

You can get to someone terrible and

13:52

I think Gideon Volter is a provocateur

13:54

and I think he's doing it for

13:56

all sorts of reasons, probably mainly his

13:58

strange psychology I think. The point is

14:00

that I am much more interested

14:03

in discussing what actually happened than

14:05

the backstories of everyone else involved.

14:07

He could have done worse things.

14:10

I don't like him. Do you want me to

14:12

say that out loud? I don't like him. He

14:15

seems to me like someone whose interests are not

14:17

always straightforward and that he is acting in bad

14:19

faith. What he revealed, it

14:22

could have been anyone doing that, is

14:24

still important. Right? That's the

14:26

thing. No amount of you

14:28

doing family trees to bad people that he's involved with

14:30

will change my mind. It wouldn't

14:32

change my mind about anything else, by the way. This is

14:34

not how I think in terms of... And I get that.

14:37

This person should be that person so we should have nothing

14:40

to do with them. It's a very internet thing. That

14:42

there's an endless sense of like, oh, but we found a

14:44

photograph of this person with them. And

14:47

I didn't agree with him and it happened to Corbin. Right?

14:50

It's important because Gideon has been

14:52

going on broadcast channels over the

14:54

last few days presenting himself as

14:56

this, I'm just this ordinary guy

14:58

who was walking around here with

15:01

my yarmulke on and I

15:03

was then approached in his

15:05

way and he's projecting himself

15:07

as an innocent bystander. This

15:10

is my position. He could be

15:12

fucking Mossad's James Bond as far

15:14

as I'm concerned. And as

15:16

long as the policeman did not know

15:18

that and thought he was

15:21

just a guy who was wearing a yarmulke,

15:23

as long as that policeman thought he was

15:25

an ordinary Jew trying to walk across the

15:27

road, the policeman's actions are still open for

15:29

discussion. That I agree with. It

15:32

is true that there is

15:34

an issue with both the policing and

15:36

the intimidation felt by Jews and

15:38

he has brought that out whether or not

15:41

he is totally someone who is operating in

15:43

bad faith. That is my point. By the

15:45

way, other videos have emerged of Gideon Volta

15:47

not trying to just walk across the road

15:49

but deliberately trying to walk in the face

15:51

of the crowd. There's an earlier video in

15:53

which he's in a van and he tries

15:55

to drive against the crowd. So it's clear

15:58

that Gideon Volta is trying to create... trouble

16:00

for the police against the pro-Palestinian

16:02

marches. I still think that there

16:04

is an issue which as a

16:07

Jew, I'm trying to talk about

16:09

here, which is difficult, I'm finding it difficult to talk

16:11

about, which is I know that there

16:13

are people who feel intimidated

16:15

just as ordinary Jews. And particularly I

16:17

think there's an issue with this notion

16:19

that we all find as Jews as

16:22

long as you come along with

16:25

the opinions that we need you to have

16:27

as Jews. Because I think

16:29

that's problematic. I disagree

16:31

with you for a number of reasons there. One,

16:34

because Gideon Foulter has for months

16:36

and months been trying to shut down the

16:38

protest. In fact, at one point he asked the

16:40

Home Secretary to send in the army. Secondly,

16:43

if what Gideon Foulter is

16:45

saying is the only reason he was

16:47

stopped is because he was visibly Jewish,

16:49

not because he was actually behaving in

16:52

this confrontational way and provocative way with

16:54

the police. There are many people on

16:56

those marches who are visibly Jewish. So

16:59

clearly just being visibly Jewish is not

17:01

a reason to be a threat

17:03

or to be a threat in any way, shape

17:06

or form or to be kept away from those.

17:08

Again, that's the lawyer in you slightly shifting the goalposts.

17:10

There are many people on those marches who are visibly

17:12

Jewish, but they are the ones who are waving the

17:14

correct flags and holding the right flag cards. And part

17:16

of a Jewish flag. But not all of them do, by

17:19

the way, David. Not every single Jewish

17:21

person, by the way, on that waves,

17:23

you know, a namod flag or waves

17:25

any other flag. There are people just

17:27

on there, just Jewish, being Jewish, walking

17:30

in that, and not even actually walking

17:32

as part of the Jewish block. I

17:34

have Jewish friends who go on those

17:36

marches with their family who don't march

17:38

as part of the Jewish block or

17:41

some banner organization. They're just Jewish people

17:43

who want peace. Yes. So

17:45

I think it's really important that there isn't

17:47

just a block of Jewish people. There is

17:50

a diversity of Jewish opinion. Yes.

17:52

Shall I give you an example? I'm not disagreeing with that. I want to give you

17:54

this example, David, right? I'll tell you what happened today. It's

17:57

a really personal thing that happened this week. I

17:59

was on my way to London. and a chap

18:01

came over to me, said hello, and I said, oh, what are

18:03

you doing here? Because he was a southerner. What are you doing

18:05

in the north? And he said, I've come

18:07

to see my mom. I'm coming to see her for Passover.

18:10

And I said, oh, at a railway

18:12

station. He said, yeah, my family, because

18:15

of my views on Palestine and Israel,

18:17

aren't comfortable with me being at the

18:19

Passover family gatherings. And

18:21

I just reached out to him, David, and I gave

18:23

him a big hug. And I said to

18:25

him, look, the easiest thing sometimes

18:28

is to stick within our tribes. The

18:30

hardest thing is to reach across those divides.

18:33

But I sat on

18:35

the train, and I rang my husband,

18:37

and I said, British Muslims need to

18:39

know, other people need to know, that

18:41

the diversity of opinion within British Jewish

18:43

community is there, that these are not

18:45

tribes, and these are not blocks, that

18:48

people do think about these things in

18:50

a variety of different ways. Obviously, I agree with

18:52

that, and it's a lovely story about the guy at the

18:54

railway. I'm saying something really simple

18:56

here. There was a tell

18:58

in what she said, is that there are

19:00

Jews marching who just want peace. All Jews

19:02

want peace, but some Jews don't want peace

19:04

in the same way that perhaps the marchers

19:06

do, which is an immediate ceasefire by the

19:08

Israelis without any sense of a negotiated ceasefire

19:10

with Hamas. And some Jews, by the way,

19:12

want peace, but they're just not sure about

19:14

the way that they might be done on

19:17

the marches. And some Jews may just be

19:19

like, maybe in the don't know

19:21

category. All Jews who are

19:23

not convinced that the way to do it

19:25

is to protest for Palestine. By

19:27

the way, I'm more on the side of those Jews, but

19:29

I hear the other Jews. All

19:31

Jews who are not on that side,

19:34

who might be visibly Jewish in whatever

19:36

way, will be slightly intimidated

19:38

by going to those marches or

19:40

being around those. I know because

19:42

I am visibly Jewish, because I'm

19:44

me. And I know that when

19:46

I go to Chelsea every Saturday, I think, oh,

19:48

I'll just avoid the marches because I don't want

19:50

to get into some kind of thing with the

19:53

marches where I have to feel that I have

19:55

to put my cards on the table about my

19:57

position on that, because maybe my position on that

19:59

is fluid. an answer and then whatever and

20:01

that's not going to be easy. That's

20:04

just what happens. There's just a whole series

20:06

of complexities that happen when those

20:08

people are going through London. Now,

20:10

I think the way that Gideon Foulter tried to bring that

20:13

out was clunky and

20:15

bad-faced and all sorts of things. But I

20:18

do know that some Jews would have thought,

20:20

I don't like the cut of his jib

20:22

much, but that does still represent a bit

20:25

how I feel in central London. What

20:28

I think of Gideon Foulter or what I

20:30

think of the CIA is less important. What

20:32

I think is really strong voices from within

20:34

the Jewish community like the Black Jewish Alliance,

20:36

like the Board of Deputies in the past,

20:39

like Dan Margaret Hodge, Lord Mann

20:41

who is the government's advisor, independent advisor

20:43

on antisemitism, they've all raised concerns. And

20:46

where people who care about antisemitism are

20:48

raising concerns about the campaign against antisemitism

20:50

and Gideon Foulter, I think we should

20:52

stand up and we should sit up

20:55

and listen. I think so too. But I think

20:57

that you can be a person with all sorts

20:59

of things wrong with you who still – I

21:01

mean, really, at some level, I'm

21:03

interested in the whole thing in a

21:05

very amoral way, which is that just

21:07

as a piece of provocation, a piece

21:09

of political theatre that got the whole

21:12

issue of whether or not you

21:14

can be walking about with a

21:16

yarmulke on and not be part

21:18

of these marches and what that

21:20

means and how the police might

21:22

react, it got that very much

21:24

into the conversation. And as such,

21:26

I think it's good that we

21:29

continue to talk about it and we can have

21:31

all the back information about how much, you know,

21:34

the campaign against antisemitism is involved in things that

21:36

are a bit dodgy as we like. I still

21:38

think it's good that conversation is being had. I

21:41

agree with you. And it also has a read

21:43

across actually to what's happening in the United States

21:45

at the moment with the University of Columbia. So

21:48

this is a university in the United

21:50

States where a number of students have

21:53

been involved in Peace Protests.

21:56

They Say they started engaging

21:58

in these protests. Kind

22:00

of encampments. Because a number of

22:02

student bodies were banned, including actually

22:04

Jewish student bodies. Jewish Voice for

22:06

Peace was one of their organizations

22:09

that was banned and that they

22:11

are effectively asking that university to

22:13

settle. Dad best to declare where

22:15

the money's coming from, to declare

22:17

where that money is invested, and

22:19

to take a position in relation

22:21

to what's happening in Israel. And

22:23

Dolls s. This is against the

22:26

backdrop of congressional hearings that had

22:28

taken place at the moment against

22:30

universities. In the United States accusing

22:32

them of creating a hostile environment

22:34

where anti semitism is a real

22:37

challenge on university campuses. And this

22:39

very issue David have come up

22:41

again. Where these protesters have been

22:43

painted as in Fat One is

22:46

where the academic call them, the

22:48

Hitler Youth and Jewish groups are

22:50

saying we'll rent these protests. We're

22:53

leading some of these protests. Why

22:55

are you effectively blocking out our

22:57

involvement in this and he also

23:00

resulted. In concerns being raised

23:02

that pro Israeli organizations what embedding

23:04

the provocative in these protests, they

23:06

put this out quite publicly. They

23:09

said they wanted people to go

23:11

in behind enemy lines inverted commas

23:13

and so I think. It for

23:16

the person you refer to a shade of

23:18

ago things who is a professor at Columbia

23:20

who is Israeli and I see the little

23:22

bit of what he's will give to you

23:24

now.being allowed on campus himself in terms of

23:26

this idea that the power lies with the

23:28

pro Israel is he's been banned from campus

23:30

and I don't know much about him. I've

23:32

seen him do a lot of shouting outside

23:34

Columbia. I've also seen all shouting from inside

23:36

Columbia was one of the issues with this

23:38

stuff is as a day because you Volta

23:40

is a little of it Now because of

23:43

the fragment to social media will be live

23:45

in is. based on individual films that you

23:47

might get to see and which ones

23:49

you might choose to focus on so within

23:51

the world of sort of jewish online anxiety

23:53

that doleful of films of people in colombia

23:56

cel thing at the at the jewish students,

23:58

some of whom are pro-Israel, yes, but shouting

24:00

at them things like, go back to Poland

24:03

and you've never had any culture and Hamas,

24:05

Hamas make us proud. I'm particularly interested in

24:07

go back to Poland and you've never had

24:09

any culture because I've got two podcasts to

24:12

go. I said one of the ways, one

24:14

of the ways in which you can tell

24:16

the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism is look

24:19

for the historical trope. Right,

24:21

so go back to Poland is

24:23

clearly a shout that is to

24:25

do with a perceived Jewishness and

24:27

an idea of Jewishness as being

24:29

associated with kind of Eastern European

24:31

and sort of ruthless cosmopolitans by saying

24:33

you've got no culture and not to

24:35

do with any sense of Israel or

24:37

whatever Israel might be doing. Obviously there's

24:39

loads of other shouting to do with

24:41

occupiers and all the rest of it.

24:43

I think that what

24:46

the thing that I heard most recently

24:48

was that the rabbi who is not

24:50

Israeli, but they have a rabbi on

24:52

Columbia sent a WhatsApp message telling Jewish

24:54

students that they shouldn't come into campus

24:56

because it's too dangerous. Now all of

24:58

that comes back to the whole issue

25:01

as you've often said of objective ideas

25:03

of safety and a feeling or a

25:05

perception of safety or not safety. What

25:08

I guess I think is that

25:10

I have sympathy as you know,

25:12

I have more sympathy with the

25:14

Palestine cause than not with the

25:16

Palestine cause. But I think as the person

25:18

on this podcast who is Jewish, what I

25:21

guess I'm alive to is

25:23

how the particularly

25:25

things like chanting and other

25:27

types of enactment of solidarity

25:29

for Palestine does spill

25:32

over from time to time into things that

25:34

are intimidating for Jews. Go back to Poland

25:36

is a very good example of it. And

25:38

I think that is taken as kind

25:41

of collateral damage. I think there's

25:43

a sense within the progressive discourse

25:45

that some stuff will be said

25:47

that will be upsetting to Jews.

25:49

We just have to price that

25:51

in. And maybe they do. Maybe

25:54

that is just, you know, we can't police

25:57

the tone of every protest, perhaps. who

26:00

you mentioned. By the way, his big

26:02

issue, again, a bit like Gideon Falter

26:04

was that the university had provided two

26:07

separate lawns actually. I think the west

26:09

lawn for the Palestinian encampment and the

26:11

math lawn, I think, for the pro-Israeli.

26:13

And what he was trying to do

26:16

was get onto the west lawn. He

26:18

was being stopped from doing so. So

26:20

it was a kind of a provocateur

26:22

approach. But one of the words that

26:24

he's used for the pro-Palestinian peace encampment

26:27

there, which includes lots of Jews, is,

26:29

you know, they're not kids, they're terrorists.

26:31

And he refers to them as, and

26:33

I hope I pronounced this right, Judenrat

26:35

Kapos. In an open letter by the

26:38

arrested and suspended Jewish students of Columbia

26:40

University, they said the following, open

26:43

quote, the disgraceful, shy Davidai

26:45

publicly called us Judenrat Kapos

26:47

and told us we would

26:49

be on the last train

26:51

to Auschwitz. We

26:53

do not feel safe with professors

26:55

still teaching on our campus, having

26:57

access to the Jewish community spaces

26:59

we cherish, much less portraying himself

27:02

as the valiant protector and spokesperson

27:04

of Jews on campus while insulting

27:06

our ancestors memory. Almost every suspended

27:08

Jewish student lost family members in

27:10

the Holocaust. We have been

27:13

called many things during our time at

27:15

Columbia. This was the worst. Davidai,

27:18

what is Judenrat and Kapos? If

27:20

anybody doesn't know, Judenrat was the name

27:23

the Nazis gave to small organizations of

27:25

Jews who they allowed to oversee ghettos

27:27

while they were liquidating them. And they

27:29

would save the lives of those Jews

27:32

for a short amount of time, but

27:34

mainly they would kill them later. So

27:36

they were thought of collaborators. And Kapos,

27:38

similarly, were Jews who in concentration camps

27:41

would work for the Nazis, mainly funneling

27:43

Jews into gas chambers and then, you

27:45

know, burning their bodies afterwards, just

27:48

because that meant that they would again live for slightly

27:50

longer. Their insults based on Jews

27:52

who, for the sake of prolonging

27:54

their lives a little bit longer,

27:56

helped the Nazis in various ways

27:58

with their industrial massacres. If

28:00

you call somebody Judenrat or Capo,

28:02

is that anti-Semitic, David? It

28:06

depends who it is

28:08

and in what context. Actually, I don't

28:10

know if it's anti-Semitic. It is, I

28:12

suppose. It's a really good question. I

28:15

think it is, but it's so complicated because

28:17

you're talking about an Israeli Jew calling anti-ZARDIS

28:21

Jews that. I think that's

28:23

a whole question for a whole other podcast. I

28:26

think it's so important, though, for this podcast,

28:28

David, because I think it raises this issue

28:30

of how complicated it is to

28:32

say what is and what isn't anti-Semitism and

28:34

what isn't Islamophobia. I think the use, as

28:37

I say, I think as we both discussed, I think

28:39

the use of the Nazi comparison in

28:41

almost any situation is a bad one. It just,

28:45

to be honest with you, I think

28:47

it is almost always anti-Semitic to use

28:49

the Nazis as a comparison for almost

28:51

anything because it belittles what the Nazis

28:53

were doing in comparison to whatever it

28:55

is that the person is talking about.

28:57

So on any side, I would say

28:59

there's always an anti-Semitic element to that

29:01

comparison. What they're also

29:03

saying, which I think this

29:05

is really important because it

29:07

goes back to Judaism, Jewish

29:09

students are saying that they

29:11

have raised concerns about anti-Semitism

29:13

on campus because the university

29:16

has created an environment where

29:18

they don't now have access

29:20

to facilities for Jewish religious

29:22

observance. They went during

29:24

Passover, during Shabbat, during other

29:26

moments, they found it really

29:28

difficult to be able to

29:30

practice their Judaism. What

29:33

they're saying is if the

29:35

university or people like this

29:37

guy, David, is really interested

29:39

in Jewish students and Jewishness,

29:41

then why is it that

29:43

they're not concerned about the

29:45

fact that Jewish students, because

29:47

of the way the university

29:49

is behaving, can't practice their

29:51

Jewishness? That's the distinction between

29:53

is anti-Semitism, anti-Jewish racism, or

29:55

is anti-Semitism used as a

29:57

way to stop criticism, any

29:59

criticism? of Israel. One of the things

30:01

that I just wanted to mention as well is

30:04

that I believe the person

30:06

shouting go back to Poland who was

30:08

wearing sort of almost full her mask

30:10

gear was not Muslim. I believe it

30:12

was a white person and actually most

30:14

of the aggression towards Gideon Foulter that

30:16

was happening in the margins of his

30:18

conversation with the police was also not

30:20

coming from Muslims. I'm

30:23

always interested in how much some

30:26

of the sort of extremes that we see

30:28

go on all sides of these

30:30

marches are happening from people

30:32

who are you know not neither Jewish

30:35

nor Muslim. In fact we can go on

30:37

to talk about this now but the video

30:39

that emerged of a guy

30:41

abusing some people who are coming back

30:43

from a march abusing some

30:45

Muslim women again he wasn't

30:48

Jewish. So there's a way in

30:50

which the sort of antagonism the

30:52

energy of this antagonism is just taken up

30:54

by people who want to be in the

30:56

fight in a way that I think is

30:59

always unhelpful. I

31:02

think there's no doubt that the

31:04

overwhelming amount of antisemitism that Jewish

31:06

communities face in the United Kingdom

31:08

and the overwhelming amount of Islamophobia

31:11

and anti-Muslim sentiment that Muslims

31:13

face in the United Kingdom

31:15

is not directed at them by Jews or

31:17

Muslims it's directed at them by white

31:20

extreme far right you know

31:23

racists. Dive

31:37

into a world of laughs by

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catch up on the latest episodes

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without the ads. So

31:52

I want to talk about this video that's doing

31:55

the rounds of this man shouting at two

31:57

women Muslim women who

32:00

look like they've just come back from a

32:02

Palestinian peace march. It was actually quite an

32:04

uncomfortable watch because he physically gets really quite

32:07

close to them. And I suppose what for

32:09

me, I suppose made it quite personal was

32:11

that this week there was another

32:13

report by a think tank policy

32:16

exchange, who's now done four reports

32:18

on the issue of Islamophobia. They

32:20

are utterly obsessed with this. And

32:23

what they have done is put

32:25

down a whole list of examples

32:28

which they say are not

32:30

Islamophobia. And they say because these examples

32:33

are not Islamophobia, therefore we must not

32:35

have a definition of Islamophobia. First of

32:37

all, I thought that was really bonkers

32:40

argument to be making, because just because

32:42

I could go out and find half

32:44

a dozen examples, which somebody has said

32:47

is antisemitism, but clearly is not, does

32:49

not mean we should not have a

32:51

definition of antisemitism. But

32:53

also what concerned me about this

32:55

report was that not only was

32:57

this the fourth report they were

33:00

doing on this, they are, I mean,

33:02

they are utterly obsessed about this. But

33:04

this report comes under a series of

33:06

reports that they do about Muslims, which

33:08

is all about the securitization of Muslims.

33:11

And so they have different sections in their

33:13

research work that they do. And they have

33:16

a section on kind of community cohesion. But

33:18

actually, all the stuff about Muslims falls into

33:20

this securitization section, because that's the way that

33:22

they see Muslims. Now, you're probably going to

33:25

say to me, David, which is who the

33:27

hell is this think tank? I'm not.

33:29

I'm not actually, I said,

33:31

this might surprise you, Saida, I've read the

33:33

policy document. Now, I know my position on

33:35

this podcast is, oh, God, I was talking

33:38

about politics. She's talking about Westminster. I'm not

33:40

interested. But I am in Delhi, and I

33:42

can't sleep because I'm jet lagged. And I

33:44

found myself reading the policy document, because it

33:46

was on our hand notes. And I clicked

33:49

on to it. So let's just explain a

33:51

few things about it, because I actually have

33:53

read it, as I said. So it's written,

33:55

co written by Khalid Mahmood, is that correct?

33:57

Who is a Labour MP, who you

34:00

you've had a bit of a spat with on

34:02

Twitter about this document. There, it's got a preface

34:04

by Sajid Javid. So there are Muslims involved, there

34:06

are other people who co-wrote it who are not

34:08

Muslim, but there are Muslims involved. You know, it's

34:11

worth saying in terms of the point you were

34:13

making about the diversity of opinion in the Jewish

34:15

communities, that there's a diversity of opinion in the

34:17

Muslim community, some of whom don't share your

34:20

opinion, for example, that the definition

34:22

of Islamophobia is required.

34:24

I read the document and

34:27

I, so this is quite hard because I

34:29

am, as you know, of the opinion that

34:32

it's up to a minority to define what

34:34

the racism against themselves is. And

34:36

you are the Muslim on this podcast, so I don't want to

34:38

tell you what Islamophobia is. But there

34:40

are Muslims who have written this document, and I'm happy to

34:42

at least listen to them in order to have a conversation

34:45

about it. One of the things they

34:47

do is they give examples, which is interesting

34:49

in terms of you saying that antisemitism

34:51

as the campaign against antisemitism we're doing

34:53

is weaponizing antisemitism to include all sorts

34:55

of things that might not be antisemitic,

34:58

and that's happening at Columbia.

35:00

They give loads of examples of that in

35:02

this. That's their methodology is to say, this

35:04

is being called Islamophobic, and this is being

35:06

called Islamophobic. Two of them involve Jews, so

35:09

I think that's worth mentioning, or they involve

35:11

Israel and Jews. One is

35:13

that asking, it's headed, asking an MP

35:15

to agree that terrorists should attack fewer

35:17

people is Islamophobic, which is a slightly

35:19

incendiary way of saying that when

35:22

Zara Sultanah, the Labour MP, asked

35:24

Rishi Sunak if he would seek to de-escalate

35:27

the situation in the Middle East and call

35:29

for immediate ceasefire, he said perhaps the honorable

35:31

lady would do well to call on Hamas

35:33

and the Houthis to de-escalate the situation. The

35:36

Labour Muslim Network said asking a Muslim member

35:38

of parliament to talk about Hamas and escalation

35:40

in Gaza is clearly Islamophobia. So there's lots

35:43

of other examples. I'd like

35:45

to know, because actually I don't know

35:47

the answer, do you as a Muslim

35:49

think that Rishi Sunak's answer to Zara

35:51

Sultanah is Islamophobic, as it

35:53

was described on the Labour Muslim Network? Is

35:55

the Prime Minister demanding a Muslim member of

35:58

parliament call on Hamas to de-escalate? in

36:01

Gaza is clear Islamophobia.

36:04

Do you think it is? I

36:06

think it's really disturbing that if

36:08

a Muslim member of parliament or

36:10

a Jewish member of parliament asked

36:13

the prime minister a specific issue

36:15

on a foreign policy issue and

36:17

he makes it tribal about them.

36:19

So if a Jewish member of

36:21

parliament said to the prime minister,

36:24

will he condemn the people who

36:26

were around the aid trucks trying

36:28

to grab the aid when it

36:30

went into Gaza? And the

36:32

prime minister turned around and said, I'd asked the

36:35

honorable gentleman to condemn the Israeli defense

36:37

force and Netanyahu. If that's his answer,

36:39

rather than engaging with the actual question,

36:41

I would say, whoa, why would you

36:43

say that to a Jewish member of

36:45

parliament? Why would you get them to

36:47

be accountable for Netanyahu and the Israeli

36:49

defense force? What? Just because they're Jewish.

36:51

So I do think there's something distasteful

36:54

about the way in which he framed

36:56

that. There's a series of tests that

36:58

Professor Modude from the University of Bristol

37:00

has set out when he said they

37:02

provide a helpful prism for drawing a

37:04

distinction between what is legitimate debate and

37:06

what is targeted racism. And he

37:09

goes through a whole series of

37:11

tests. So Professor Modude says, does

37:13

the criticism stereotype Muslims by assuming

37:15

they all think the same? Does

37:18

the criticism seem to suggest that

37:20

all or most Muslims have this

37:22

blame worthy characteristic and that feature

37:24

defines Muslims? Indeed, it drowns out

37:27

any worthy characteristics and ignores contextual

37:29

factors. Does the criticism consist of

37:31

generalization? Does it consist of excluding

37:33

the group? So it's all about

37:36

stereotyping, stigmatizing and putting tropes

37:38

on that community. That's racism.

37:40

My hack always is replace

37:42

the example with a different

37:44

community and see if it

37:47

still feels comfortable. And

37:49

if it doesn't, the chances are it's racism.

37:52

So you're in the report or you're in the

37:54

think tank thing mentioned because you were did

37:56

you actually chair it the AAPG, the

37:58

all party party? group. Okay, but you were on

38:01

the 2018-2019 committee of that? I

38:06

was on the group of, yeah, I was

38:08

on the group of about, I think it

38:11

was a couple of dozen parliamentarians who were

38:13

part of that. It was chaired by West

38:15

Streeting, the now shadow health secretary, and Anna

38:17

Subri, the ex-conservative defence minister. And what's fascinating

38:19

in this report is, and it says this

38:21

right at the outset, the reason for this

38:24

fourth kind of hatchet job of

38:26

the Islamophobia report by Policy Exchange is

38:28

because they're concerned that West Streeting is

38:30

likely to be a big part of

38:33

the new government that's formed after the

38:35

next general election. And they're trying to

38:37

say to him, please don't do anything around

38:39

this area to provide this kind of protection definition.

38:41

Right. Okay. I mean, you know, who knows whether

38:44

the Policy Exchange document will have any effect at

38:46

all on the new government? They're really powerful,

38:48

David, right? Well, okay. This

38:50

is why it's important. If they were

38:52

just a two bit, two bit nothingness,

38:54

they're one really well-funded, certainly opaquely funded,

38:56

which is constantly talked about in the

38:58

list of where their money comes from

39:00

and how they declare it. But thirdly,

39:02

they are incredibly powerful. Almost anybody who

39:04

takes a leadership position within the Conservative

39:06

Party has either been or worked with

39:08

them. The prime minister's worked with them.

39:10

Most people who work for the prime

39:12

minister have worked for them. So they

39:14

have really deep roots and tentacles into

39:16

the party. And actually, by the way, they don't

39:18

make a secret of this. They boast about their influence

39:21

and power within Conservative policymaking.

39:23

I just want to ask, and I should

39:25

say I'm asking this slightly, just wanting to

39:28

clarify intellectually things that I think you will

39:30

be clearer about. It

39:32

mentions in the document that the

39:34

All-Party Parliamentary Group in 2018 on

39:36

British Muslims said the supposed right

39:38

to criticize Islam results in nothing

39:40

more than another subtle form of

39:42

anti-Muslim racism. Now, that's

39:45

interesting, because I guess

39:47

that's where the people writing this

39:49

are trying to hone in

39:51

on, which is the idea that liberal

39:54

values, such as the ability to

39:56

criticize religion of all sorts,

39:58

to criticize faith to make... fun of faith should

40:01

not be called a type of racism. But

40:04

the APG say

40:06

in their report that the supposed

40:08

right to criticise Islam results in

40:11

another subtle form of anti-Muslim racism.

40:13

That's absolute BS. It doesn't say.

40:16

I'm involved. No, I'm involved in that report.

40:18

That's a direct question. And on the face,

40:20

no, so on the face of the report

40:22

it says this definition and

40:24

this work on Islamophobia is in no

40:27

way and does not in any way

40:29

stop debate and discussion about Islam. And

40:31

in fact, we went further than that.

40:34

We actually got a ruling from a

40:36

Cambridge academic called Professor Tim Winters, who's

40:38

actually also a Muslim. He basically gave

40:41

us a ruling to say that there's

40:43

a long history of debate, discussion and

40:45

disagreement and questioning of Islam

40:47

throughout history. So that this

40:50

definition, I mean, think about

40:52

this, David, let me give you a really

40:54

personal example. If somebody decides that their interpretation

40:56

of Islam is that I should be just

40:58

dressed in a certain way. And

41:00

if I'm not dressed in that certain way, that

41:02

I'm not practicing my faith properly, and

41:05

they want to implement that somehow through legislation, what

41:07

the hell do I want to live my life

41:09

like that? Do I want religious men? Do I

41:11

want imams to be telling me how I should

41:13

be living my life? Of course I don't. You

41:15

know, I am one of the most

41:17

open out there liberal thinkers on women's

41:19

rights on LGBT rights. I'm pushing

41:21

the debate within the community on this. No,

41:24

I know you are. A lot of what

41:26

it's saying is, and it won't be you,

41:28

it's finding examples of God knows where of

41:30

Islamaphobia being used to shut down XYZ. One

41:33

of the things that it uses is liberal

41:35

critique of Islam. So use that

41:38

as one of the examples that

41:40

talking about whether it's okay

41:42

for women to wear burkas or

41:45

the whole idea of what women should or

41:47

shouldn't wear as being a liberal thing that

41:49

liberals like to talk about, it

41:51

finds people saying that that's Islamaphobic. And

41:53

it wouldn't be wrong to say that

41:56

there probably are some people who do

41:58

consider that Islamaphobic. people

42:00

out there who would say your criticism of

42:02

my version of my faith in this way

42:04

is considered to be anti-Muslim racism but that's

42:06

not what the Islamophobia definition does. But actually

42:08

saying I don't believe in the fact that

42:10

women should dress like that or behave like

42:12

that or prayer should be like

42:15

that or you know these history figures

42:17

should be treated in that way that's

42:19

nothing to do with Islamophobia. Now the

42:21

point about all this is you were

42:23

talking earlier and I by the way

42:25

agree with you in certain cases you

42:27

were talking earlier about the weaponization of

42:29

anti-Semitism by bad faith actors and by

42:31

the state of Israel which obviously

42:34

does happen and I completely agree with you.

42:36

Now I think... I also think there's

42:38

a weaponization of Islamophobia David by bad

42:40

faith actors. So when does that happen? I'll give you

42:42

an example for me Islamophobia or anti...

42:44

I don't like even like the word

42:47

Islamophobia right the word I always use

42:49

is anti-Muslim racism the reason that the

42:51

word Islamophobia is used is because when

42:53

the all-party parliamentary group went out and

42:55

took evidence across the country the word

42:58

that most British Muslims said they wanted

43:00

us to use was Islamophobia right so

43:02

if the community wants this word even

43:04

though it's not a perfect word and

43:06

it's not a word that I like

43:08

I would use anti-Muslim racism and anti-Jewish

43:10

racism. You can never use Islamophobia or

43:12

anti-Muslim racism as an accusation to shut

43:14

down debate about Islam. It's not there

43:16

to protect the faith it's there to

43:18

protect believers or perceived believers and there

43:20

are people who would like to use

43:22

it to protect a belief system but

43:24

a belief system is so diverse and

43:26

everybody's interpretation is different and we're not

43:28

here to introduce you know blasphemy laws

43:30

have long gone from these shores and

43:32

we never want them back. There are

43:34

bad faith actors both Muslim bad faith

43:37

actors who will use the accusation of

43:39

Islamophobia to shut down debate about Islam

43:41

and there are bad faith actors within

43:43

the Jewish community who will use the

43:45

accusation of anti-Semitism to shut down debate

43:48

about Israel. My objection to this report

43:50

is that that policy exchange who in

43:52

the past when writing about Muslims have

43:55

been found by BBC Newsnight to be

43:57

bad faith actors that actually they are

43:59

obsessed with this issue and at

44:01

no point have they ever said, actually

44:03

we don't think this definition is the

44:06

right definition but we think this is

44:08

the way to protect British Muslims.

44:12

And if you don't ever have an

44:14

answer about how you would protect this

44:16

community, then I'm sorry, you're constantly sniping

44:18

at it to stop anybody else providing

44:20

any form of protection means that you

44:22

do not have a locus in this

44:24

in the way in which you're trying

44:26

to influence this debate. Okay, that

44:28

might be right. I actually, as it

44:30

happens, I'm not a big fan of

44:33

the IHRA definition. I'm not a big

44:35

fan of definitions of racism in general.

44:37

What I think is that the minority

44:39

involved are able to see racism when

44:41

it happens and they can call it

44:44

out and often that involves deconstructing exactly

44:46

what tropes are being used in this

44:48

specific example and it's very hard to

44:50

have a generalized map of what is

44:52

anti-Semitism. I've read the IHRI definition a

44:55

number of times. That's the definition put

44:57

forward by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance,

44:59

the one that's mainly accepted by the

45:01

government and indeed by the Labour Party.

45:03

And I thought I could give you

45:05

17 examples of anti-Semitism that are not

45:07

covered by this definition and there are

45:09

some in the whatever it is regulations

45:11

that I think aren't particularly anti-Semitic. I

45:13

want to ask you just one more

45:15

thing, which is the conclusion

45:18

of the APPG report that I've

45:20

read here and in fact, this

45:22

bit involves you being quoted or

45:24

your name coming up. The

45:27

definition that you came up with

45:29

in 2018 was non-legally binding and

45:32

would protect believers, not beliefs. Now

45:35

I'm really interested in that because I'm

45:37

not sure where

45:39

the grey area exactly is because I think my

45:41

issue is intellectually is if you say I'm trying

45:43

to protect a believer, not a belief. If

45:46

that was a Jew and they say

45:48

I'm just trying to protect a believer, not your

45:50

belief, you're allowed to say what you like about

45:52

Hashem, which is the Jewish word for God, but

45:55

I'm going to make fun of him, I'm going to make fun of God,

45:57

but I'm not going to make fun of you as a person. I

46:00

think most believers would say, well, I feel

46:02

so identified with that belief that

46:04

you are making fun of me. So I

46:07

think it's a very complicated distinction.

46:10

Yes, which is why the definition, and

46:12

I'll tell you what the definition is,

46:14

that Islamophobia is a form of racism

46:16

that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived

46:18

Muslimness. And by the way,

46:20

that definition then has a whole load of

46:22

examples underneath it, just like the IHRA definition,

46:24

because these things are not black and white.

46:27

And what we made sure was that

46:29

this was one, a non-legally binding definition.

46:32

And so we're not going to apply the

46:35

law on people. Secondly, that it's a working

46:37

definition like the IHRA, which is that it's

46:39

a constantly evolving definition. I think

46:41

what the IHRA definition does on

46:43

Antisemitism, David, and what the APPG

46:45

definition on Islamophobia does is it

46:48

sets a direction of travel. I

46:50

see it as nudge behavior. It's

46:52

a measure that you could look

46:54

against and say, it's what my

46:56

organization or my institution doing or

46:58

me, am I personally doing, likely

47:00

to fall foul of this? If

47:02

it is, maybe I just need to think again.

47:04

I don't like applying the law. I'm actually a

47:07

libertarian at heart. I think the law should

47:09

be the last thing that you apply. What you should

47:11

try and do is make culture change

47:13

by making people think again and not

47:15

use the kind of terms that in

47:17

the past we used to use the

47:19

N-word or the P-word. And these definitions

47:22

are simply about Britain carrying on its

47:24

progressive journey towards being more

47:27

understanding and liberal and inclusive.

47:29

OK, fine. I'm just not sure definitions are always

47:31

the way. And I find it

47:33

hard to believe that if a definition did exist,

47:36

that it wouldn't be used legally, that people wouldn't

47:39

sue people using it as

47:42

a definition. But maybe you're right that a

47:44

non-binding definition is a way forward, at least

47:46

for people to talk about. I'm still not

47:48

sure you've answered this question about what is

47:50

the difference between a believer and

47:52

a set of beliefs. It seems to

47:54

me that particularly now when people are

47:56

so convinced that their identity is wrapped

47:58

up in what they believe. And

48:00

you see it online all the time.

48:02

If you challenge someone's belief, they feel

48:04

personally attacked. I'm not sure it really

48:06

works to say we're trying to create

48:08

a definition that protects believers, not

48:11

beliefs. That's an intellectual problem I have with

48:13

it, not really anything to do with Muslims

48:15

and Jews. Yeah, and I think the

48:17

same was said about the IHRA definition

48:19

that actually it wasn't clear enough and

48:21

those demarcations between when are you attacking

48:23

somebody because they're Jewish or when are

48:25

you attacking Israel and that's impacting on

48:27

their Jewish identity for whom people feel

48:29

that their Jewish identity is intrinsically linked

48:31

to the state of Israel. All

48:33

religions. And people had huge rouse about this. All

48:36

their religion. And people had huge rouse

48:38

about this. But I think in the

48:40

end, I think if you are good

48:42

faith people who genuinely care about fighting

48:44

racism and making people feel included, we

48:46

can find a way to this. And

48:48

the definitions, whether it's anti-Semitism or Islamophobia,

48:50

are just one of the tools that

48:52

we can use. I'm in

48:54

India. I'm reading my kids'

48:56

books to schools in Delhi and Mumbai,

48:58

but there's a whole other conversation we

49:00

could have about the way India has

49:02

gone in terms of Hindu nationalism. Let's

49:05

not do that now. Let's leave it for another week. And maybe

49:07

just because I'm in India, you can teach me a word in

49:09

Urdu. But you know, I might

49:11

start teaching you Yiddish because this week

49:13

a lovely gentleman by the name of

49:16

Paul Slade sent me a book called

49:18

The Joys of Yiddish by Leo Rothstein.

49:20

And he basically said to me, I

49:22

think he's basically Team Vasi. And he

49:24

said, I'm sending you this so that

49:26

every so often you can surprise David.

49:28

And the word he wants me to

49:30

say to you today is plots. Plots.

49:35

I think it's plots. I think it's

49:37

P-L-O-C-Z. So basically the whole point of this

49:39

book from Paul is that I'm going to

49:41

start using Yiddish words and you will plot.

49:44

Yeah. The way I see it, Syeda, is

49:46

there is a team Badil and Team Vasi.

49:48

There's just team a Muslim and a Jew

49:50

go there. I agree. So let me ask

49:52

you a question. What word have you heard

49:54

in India that you now know but you

49:56

didn't know before? It's

50:00

all so far because I've only been here a

50:02

day and most of the words I pick up

50:04

on are words in English in the middle of

50:06

people speaking Hindi. So I was watching

50:08

this really interesting TikTok video and they

50:10

were saying that the only two words

50:13

you need to know when you're in

50:15

India is bai which is brother and

50:17

hare which is is. So

50:19

you just have to walk into everything and say

50:21

bai, Wi-Fi, hare which basically means do you have

50:23

Wi-Fi? Bai, you know

50:25

food, hare, bai, chicken masala, hare. So just

50:27

like bai and hare and you're going to

50:30

be fine. Okay

50:32

have we done it now? In

50:34

a couple of weeks we're going to

50:36

be doing another Q&A session so we'd

50:38

like you to send in your questions.

50:40

The email address is podcast at instinctproductions.com.

50:43

And you can also send us

50:45

questions or any comments you like

50:47

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50:49

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50:55

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