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Steaks, America's Original Butcher.

0:40

I'm Julia Gillard, and

0:43

you're listening to a

0:46

podcast of One Zone.

0:55

Hello and welcome to all of you

0:57

listening wherever you are to our

1:00

final episode for 2023.

1:02

We're going to take a

1:04

look back at the wonderful conversations we

1:06

had for season five of a podcast

1:08

of One Zone. This year, I was

1:11

able to interview more of the guests

1:13

in person, which was indicative of life

1:15

returning a little more to what we

1:18

might consider normal in 2023. In

1:21

May, the World Health Organization

1:23

officially ended its declaration of

1:25

COVID-19 being a

1:27

global health emergency, although

1:30

the virus is still with us. I

1:33

had it for a second time in

1:35

late March, though fortunately, not badly. I

1:38

remain grateful to the scientists who

1:40

delivered the vaccines to the world.

1:43

But even though COVID has not entirely

1:45

gone away, more people began

1:47

returning to the office, big

1:50

events were back, and international

1:52

travel took off, with holidaymakers

1:54

flocking to popular destinations once

1:56

again. I was lucky enough

1:58

to travel on the gowns. train to

2:00

Alice Springs, walk the rim

2:03

of Kings Canyon and then spend a

2:05

few magical days at Uluru. It

2:08

made me reflect again on

2:10

what a privilege it is

2:13

to share this country with

2:15

Australia's First Nations people who

2:17

are the custodians of the

2:19

oldest living culture on Earth.

2:22

I was terribly saddened to see

2:24

the results of the voice referendum

2:27

and believe one of our

2:29

biggest collective tasks in

2:31

2024 is coming

2:34

together around truth telling, reconciliation

2:38

and genuine equality. I

2:40

did do a lot of travelling this

2:42

year as a result of splitting my

2:44

time between Australia and the UK. I've

2:47

had a hugely busy year continuing

2:50

my work with WELCOME and the

2:52

Global Institute for Women's Leadership

2:54

in London as well as

2:56

Beyond Blue and Jules Sister

2:58

Institute at the Australian National

3:00

University in Canberra. I

3:02

also headed up a Royal Commission

3:04

into early childhood education and care

3:07

in South Australia where I grew

3:09

up. It was a big

3:11

job but incredibly rewarding. I've always

3:13

been passionate about everyone's right to

3:16

a quality education and the role

3:18

it can play in overcoming inequality.

3:21

Through the Commission I learned a lot about

3:24

the ways we can best support our

3:26

youngest minds. A big shout

3:28

out to the incredible team I worked

3:30

with on that project. After

3:33

all the travel I'm really happy to

3:35

be back home in Adelaide and I'm

3:37

looking forward to spending some time with

3:40

family and friends over the holiday season.

3:43

I came back home after having

3:45

attended the climate summit in Dubai.

3:48

That shows that the effect of climate

3:50

change escalates social, political and

3:53

economic tensions which in turn exposes

3:55

women and girls to increased risk

3:57

of gender based violence, human rights

3:59

human trafficking, and child marriage.

4:02

I discussed all this with podcast

4:05

guest, Rowanna McClelland. Rowanna

4:07

is an author, an academic researcher,

4:09

a political advisor, and a former

4:12

colleague of mine. This

4:14

year she released her first novel,

4:16

The Comforting Weight of Water,

4:19

is set in a near future where

4:21

it never stops raining and

4:23

a young adolescent runs wild.

4:26

One of the characters, an older woman, tells

4:29

stories about the world before

4:31

environmental and social collapse led

4:33

to the wet and what

4:35

that experience was like for women.

4:38

I asked Rowanna whether she

4:40

made a deliberate choice to

4:42

highlight the impact a changing climate

4:45

could have on women and girls.

4:48

Yeah, I did. I wanted people to

4:50

be thinking about that. I wanted to draw that out

4:52

because we know that

4:54

that's already happening. Climate change is

4:56

already disproportionately affecting women and

4:59

we know that those effects are going

5:01

to increase as climate change increases. So

5:03

I wanted to write a story where

5:05

that has already happened and in order

5:07

for us to be able to reflect

5:10

on that impact. But

5:13

also I wanted to draw that out

5:15

because there is still a

5:17

very gendered coverage of climate

5:19

issues and a gendered element to

5:21

climate decision making which given the

5:24

effects on women that we anticipate

5:26

or know to have already happened is

5:28

so unequal and unlevel and disproportionate because

5:31

we should be having women and other

5:33

diverse voices involved in these conversations and

5:35

it's something that comes up in my

5:37

research and it's something that I wanted

5:39

to draw out in the book as

5:41

well. So I think being aware of

5:44

that now and talking about that now

5:46

and understanding the impact that climate change

5:48

is going to have on women and drawing

5:50

women into the conversation and other voices into

5:52

the conversation about climate change is really important

5:54

because we do know this is a fact.

5:57

That is a really crucial issue for people

5:59

living. on this planet to tackle

6:01

now and into the future. But

6:03

as my next guest told us,

6:06

the issue of gender inequality actually

6:08

stretches beyond our planet and

6:10

into space. Dr.

6:12

Elise Stevens is the Deputy

6:14

Director of the Global Institute

6:16

for Women's Leadership at

6:18

the Australian National University in

6:21

Canberra. Elise's research

6:23

focuses on gender, sexuality

6:25

and leadership in frontier

6:28

international relations like

6:30

national security, intelligence and

6:32

space policy. This

6:35

year the institute held Australia's

6:37

first ever Conference on Gender

6:39

Equality in space. It

6:43

was a brilliant event uncovering

6:45

key insights into the state

6:47

of the sector. Unfortunately,

6:49

exclusion and discrimination are

6:52

common and persistent

6:54

inequality impacts everything from

6:56

the division of roles and

6:59

leadership opportunities to recruitment practices,

7:02

funding decisions and unequal

7:04

pay. During our

7:06

conversation, Elise explained why it's

7:08

so important women are an

7:11

equal part of space exploration.

7:13

The ramifications for getting this role are

7:15

quite major. So for me, we're not

7:18

talking about the effect of gender inequality

7:20

for the next five or ten or

7:22

even a hundred years in space. If

7:24

we don't have women at the frontier

7:27

and at the forefront, if we don't

7:29

have First Nations people, if we don't

7:31

have people of different ethnicities and disabilities,

7:33

sexualities and other backgrounds, then

7:36

really we're limiting who gets to decide

7:38

on whether we settle future planets, whether

7:40

we mine them, who benefits from our

7:42

space engagement. That's really held in the

7:44

small hands of a small few I

7:47

suppose and I think that's really worrying.

7:49

I think this is an intergenerational issue

7:51

and if we can get it right

7:53

now, then that also sets a precedent

7:55

going forwards for any future planets that

7:58

we may or may not have. not

8:00

settle. You think more people should

8:02

be in on this decision than Elon Musk? 100%!

8:06

I think that was one of the first reasons

8:08

why I started this research. I was like oh

8:10

my goodness are we only going to see rich

8:13

white men populate the moon or Mars and if

8:15

so there's going to be some sort of state

8:17

of codey issues. We're going to

8:19

come back down to earth now

8:21

and turn our focus to Afghanistan.

8:24

It's more than two years since the

8:26

Taliban reclaimed control of the country

8:28

and dramatically changed the

8:30

lives of women and girls.

8:33

When the Taliban took power in 2021

8:37

all eyes were on Afghanistan but

8:39

now it's hard to get news of what

8:41

is happening and to hear the perspective of

8:43

the women living there. To amplify

8:46

the voices we held a live

8:48

event at the Global Institute for

8:51

Women's Leadership in London in May

8:53

where we heard from an excellent

8:55

panel of speakers. One

8:57

of our panelists was Sveto Muhammad

9:00

Ishok. Sveto works to

9:02

bring the diverse stories of

9:04

women in Afghanistan to public

9:06

attention and to dispel

9:09

the stereotypes that persist. In

9:12

general Afghan women are

9:14

portrayed as passive victims,

9:16

very weak, people who

9:18

need pity. I think that's completely not

9:20

true because in my opinion Afghan women

9:22

are the strongest women. They

9:24

are very powerful, they're very strong. They're

9:27

leaders in their communities, they're leaders in

9:29

their families, they are capable and leaders

9:31

and I think that was very proved,

9:34

very much proved after the collapse of

9:36

Afghanistan. We have seen women protesting

9:38

on the streets so they didn't stay silent,

9:40

they were not passive victims. They

9:42

have started, they have turned their

9:44

homes into secret schools and

9:47

they have started, the teachers have started

9:49

volunteering and they are not receiving salaries

9:51

but they're teaching the next generation of

9:54

girls in their homes. So

9:56

women are doing a lot and

9:58

despite these problems despite these

10:01

circumstances and challenges that we are facing in

10:03

Afghanistan. So I think

10:06

it's very important to kind of have

10:08

the approach, whether it's from

10:10

humanitarian perspective or from journalism, from

10:12

any side of perspective to view

10:14

Afghan women as not

10:17

past traffickers and people who are actively trying

10:19

to challenge their status quo and challenge the

10:22

situation. So yeah, when

10:24

discussing Afghan women, it's really important to keep

10:26

that in mind, that they are capable if

10:28

they will be given opportunities. I think

10:31

that's something that all of us in this room

10:33

can do is to support, so the support that

10:35

the international community can do is to amplify

10:38

the local voices. So even

10:40

now, when I talk, I always share my story

10:42

or I talk to a person who is in

10:44

Afghanistan, because I think we

10:46

have to give platforms, and I honestly

10:48

believe that Afghan women or in general

10:50

women from the global south are not

10:52

voiceless. And I don't know, I have problems

10:54

with that term as well. We

10:57

have a voice, we just need to be given a

10:59

platform. If you give a platform, and

11:01

I'm really glad that all the panelists here are giving

11:03

platform through their own organization, through their own work. So

11:07

it's really important to give them platform to

11:09

hear their stories, to hear their perspectives, because

11:12

we have the solutions. A lot

11:14

of right now, local NGOs and local,

11:16

not only NGOs, businesses, are

11:19

trying to fill the gap of humanitarian crisis,

11:21

education crisis, everything they're

11:23

doing, they just need support. So always

11:25

try to listen to the Afghan women

11:27

who are in Afghanistan, because

11:30

she knows the solution and she will say that

11:32

perfectly. Since this conversation,

11:35

world events have continued to

11:37

shock us. All of

11:39

us feel the emotional impact of what

11:41

has happened in Israel and Gaza. Many

11:44

of us know people who have been directly

11:46

affected, for whom the grief

11:48

and pain are intense. While

11:51

this new horror has hit, the

11:54

war in Ukraine continues, and

11:56

the toll of lives lost mounts. Indeed,

11:59

a role has been made. call of all

12:01

the places in the world where

12:03

war, violence, civil unrest and

12:06

poverty, blight lives would take

12:08

longer than our time together

12:10

on this podcast. All

12:13

this should deepen our sense

12:15

of gratitude for living in

12:17

a beautiful, peaceful country and

12:20

propel us to give when we can

12:22

to the key humanitarian relief charities

12:25

who strive to make a difference.

12:28

It also means when we hear

12:30

stories of courage and resilience,

12:32

we truly appreciate them as

12:35

the beacons they are in so

12:37

much despair. Sveto

12:39

told us some of those

12:41

stories she spoke about the

12:44

strength and resilience of

12:46

Afghan women and her

12:48

views were echoed by best-selling

12:50

author Gayle Lamont. Gayle

12:52

is a former journalist who has

12:55

written extensively about women's

12:57

entrepreneurship in conflict and

12:59

post-conflict zones like

13:01

Afghanistan. She has

13:03

also written books including the

13:05

dressmaker of Kahar Khanna

13:08

which tells the story of a

13:10

young woman in Kabul who has

13:12

graduated with a teaching degree that

13:14

is banned from working after

13:17

the Taliban seizes power in 1996.

13:21

In order to support her family,

13:23

the woman creates a dressmaking

13:25

business. I ask Gayle about

13:27

how the story layers the questions

13:29

of what is victimhood, what

13:32

is resistance, what is

13:34

agency and how those

13:36

same questions apply to what is

13:38

happening to women in Afghanistan today.

13:41

The narrative of the victim trumps everything

13:43

for those outside Afghanistan when it comes

13:46

to women and when you

13:48

are inside the country you have the

13:50

privilege of meeting women who are shaping

13:52

their communities every single day against enormous

13:55

odds no matter what the obstacle is.

13:57

Dressmaker of Kahar Khanna is a story.

14:00

about a girl who had to figure out how

14:02

to support her brothers and sisters at a very

14:04

difficult time when her father was in danger for

14:06

staying. And so she realized she

14:08

was actually really lousy at sewing, but she

14:10

was very good at bringing the people together

14:13

who could sew and then going to the

14:15

marketplace and selling those dresses. And that dressmaking

14:17

business, which grew out of desperation, really

14:19

led to the innovation of people from

14:22

around the neighborhood coming to her saying,

14:24

my aunt's cousin's sister's friend says you have

14:27

work. Because what people

14:29

don't know about the toll bond is exactly

14:31

what's being experienced now, which is they do

14:33

not have the technocratic capability to run an

14:35

economy. And you add to that the international

14:38

community and sanctions right and what's happening. And

14:40

it makes it incredibly difficult for moms and

14:42

dads to feed their children. And

14:44

it was the same then. And so

14:46

when I fast forward to now, it's even

14:49

more so there are women who

14:51

are against great odds finding ways

14:53

forward because they always will. And

14:56

it is, in my view, one of

14:58

the greatest people and sources of investment

15:00

would be to support those women as

15:03

they push forward in their communities. I

15:06

couldn't agree with Gail more about the need

15:08

to invest in women. A lot of

15:10

issues we've explored so far focus

15:12

on inequalities forced upon women by

15:15

men or the patriarchy

15:17

more generally. In the

15:19

first episode of this season, I

15:21

sat down with broadcaster and author

15:24

Angela Saini to discuss her latest

15:26

book, The Patriarchs, The Origins

15:28

of Inequality. We had

15:31

a fascinating discussion about the

15:33

roots of gender depression and

15:35

how patriarchal systems become embedded

15:37

in our societies. One

15:40

of the really interesting elements

15:42

Angela raised was the role

15:44

women can play in reflecting

15:47

and perpetuating these systems. Often

15:49

when we talk about patriarchy in feminist

15:51

circles, we're talking about Europe and the

15:54

world. And I wanted to illustrate that

15:56

it takes different forms depending on where you are in

15:59

the world and certainly. in Asia,

16:01

in the Middle East, in Africa,

16:04

that mother-in-law, daughter-in-law dynamic is one

16:06

of the main vectors for patriarchal

16:08

structures. There's absolutely no doubt about

16:10

it. You see it again again.

16:12

In fact, it's such

16:14

a common trope. It's repeated in soap

16:16

operas and films. It's just dominant,

16:19

and it really does shape

16:21

the lives and fortunes of

16:23

women. Where it comes

16:25

from is that in patrilocal cultures, so these

16:28

are cultures in which women leave their own

16:30

family home to go and live with their

16:32

husbands. You're essentially leaving

16:34

the comfort and safety of

16:37

your family, of your kin, people

16:39

who've known you since childhood, and

16:41

joining who, in

16:43

some cases, can sometimes be strangers. It's

16:45

not that long ago, my mum's generation,

16:47

in which women would sometimes

16:49

get married without ever having met

16:51

their husband, sometimes moving very

16:53

far away. In fact,

16:56

one of the examples I give in the book

16:58

is of women who have moved country with their

17:00

husbands, and the domestic violence and abuse

17:02

they sometimes suffer at the hands of their in-laws,

17:04

which is a big issue

17:06

in diaspora communities in Europe and

17:08

throughout the West. That

17:11

situation, of course, as

17:13

you can imagine, creates

17:16

an imbalance of power. If you

17:18

are on your own in a

17:20

family in which everyone knows each

17:22

other and is looking out for each other, but you're

17:25

the new one, and you already

17:27

are expected because of cultural expectation

17:29

to be a bit differential

17:31

to your husband and to your

17:33

parents-in-law, then of course it

17:36

creates a kind of

17:38

master-servant relationship in some cases. In

17:41

fact, the parallel I give is

17:43

with slavery. It's not that it

17:46

is literally slavery, but certainly you

17:48

can see echoes of it in the way

17:50

that marriage customs have developed and the institution

17:52

of marriage has developed in the

17:54

way that you are almost expected

17:57

to be subservient, to give yourself

17:59

over. to be completely submissive

18:02

to this new family that you've joined.

18:04

And in fact, now it's only relatively

18:06

recently that forced marriage, which is the

18:09

most extreme form of this patriarchal marriage,

18:11

has now been classified officially by the

18:14

International Labor Organization as a form of

18:16

modern day slavery. So there are many

18:18

millions of women and girls today living

18:21

in conditions like this, patriarchal conditions,

18:24

patriarchal conditions in which they

18:26

are essentially slaves. That

18:29

is, I think, the foundational patriarchal

18:31

institution, how that happens and how

18:33

that developed. Now, going back to

18:35

your question, when we perpetuate

18:37

these things ourselves, when we become

18:40

mother-in-laws and behave terribly

18:42

to our daughter-in-laws, and then they grow

18:44

up and do the same and this

18:46

cycle just continues, or when

18:48

you see aunts and mothers pushing

18:51

their daughters to have

18:53

FGM, even though they know how

18:55

painful it is, because they feel it

18:58

will serve them in society if they have this procedure

19:00

done. They know it will be easier for them to

19:02

get married. All of this,

19:04

we know, is in the service of

19:06

this culture that serves men, but

19:09

we also have to live our lives. And

19:12

we have to make it work somehow. We

19:14

have to draw power and agency where we

19:16

can. And so we just keep

19:18

replicating it. We just keep doing it, because that's

19:20

all we have. When you have

19:22

no way out, then what else

19:24

can you do? You have to just buy into

19:27

the system and make it work for you as

19:29

an individual in whichever way you can. So

19:32

I'm not condemning the women, of course, who

19:34

find themselves in this situation, because often they

19:36

will have no other choice. They will have

19:38

nowhere else to go. The question

19:40

is, how do we break that cycle? How do we interrupt

19:42

it? And how do we

19:44

detach it from our commitment to

19:46

tradition and culture, which I

19:49

think is such a dangerous game,

19:51

because we can find ourselves

19:53

then as women defending

19:55

things that should be indefensible, as a

19:57

human rights issue indefensible. But we do.

20:00

defend it because of culture. As

20:02

Angela has so excellently put there,

20:05

bringing about change or speaking

20:07

up against entrenched traditions and

20:09

norms can be really difficult

20:12

and often those who do speak

20:14

out come under fire. In June

20:16

I had the pleasure of sitting

20:18

down with another Angela, Angela Rayner.

20:20

Angela is the deputy leader of

20:22

the Labor Party in the UK

20:24

and has a remarkable life story.

20:27

Growing up on a council estate near

20:29

Manchester, Angela didn't see

20:32

a book until she started school.

20:35

When she became pregnant with her first child at

20:37

the age of 16, she

20:39

left school and had to navigate

20:41

her way as a young single mum.

20:44

It was later as a care

20:46

worker that she became involved in

20:48

the union movement and her political

20:50

journey began. We discussed

20:52

the barriers and the online abuse

20:55

that women face on the political

20:57

front line and how that discourages

20:59

many from taking part. I

21:02

asked her how she found her

21:04

voice and the ability to speak

21:06

out. I would say it evolves.

21:09

It's not going to happen overnight and

21:11

at different periods I've challenged different things.

21:13

So at times the way my father

21:15

behaved, I got to a teenager and

21:17

I challenged him on the

21:19

way our structure of our house was.

21:22

I've challenged people, I challenged teachers at

21:24

school when I thought they were wrong

21:26

in something they were doing. I've always

21:28

tested the boundary. I am that kid

21:30

that would literally just step over the

21:32

line. We've all got

21:34

one in the family somewhere. They're going

21:37

to be the entrepreneurial kid I'm telling

21:39

you. But I've always been that one.

21:41

My brother and sister were far more

21:43

compliant than I was. So there's something

21:46

inside me that kind of pushes the

21:48

boundary. But then it's evolved over

21:50

time. So I remember being a home

21:53

help after going to the boardroom as

21:55

a union rep very early on to

21:57

speak to management about a restructure. and

22:00

the senior branch secretary asked

22:02

me to go along but I'm like, I can't go

22:04

in that room, right? It's the director of social

22:06

services, you know, hence social services. They're very important

22:09

people, not like me. I'm like, I can't do

22:11

that. I wouldn't know what to say. And you

22:13

can just sit there if you want, but we

22:15

need you there because you're the shop steward and

22:18

you're in that area sort of thing. So I

22:20

was like, okay, so go around. I go there

22:22

incredibly nervous thinking I shouldn't be in this room.

22:25

And within 15 minutes of listening to

22:27

the directors, I was like, you don't

22:29

have a Scooby-Doo knowledge

22:32

about anything that we're doing. And

22:34

it kind of then, I kind of had

22:36

to speak out again. I'm like, well, actually,

22:39

that's not true. That's not how we do

22:41

our job. That wouldn't work with our job.

22:43

And I kind of ended up like in

22:45

the boardroom, the director coming up with a

22:47

new rehabilitation service that delivered for social care

22:49

and at the same time, given the workers

22:51

that I worked alongside the career structure and

22:53

the pay rise. So I went from

22:56

one minute feeling like I would have

22:58

nothing to contribute to realizing that actually I

23:00

had the most to contribute in that room.

23:02

I never thought I'd be deputy leader of

23:04

the Labour Party. I never ever thought that

23:06

I would be picked, chosen by my peers

23:09

to do that job. Maybe that's

23:11

a good thing that somebody's in that

23:13

job that never wanted to aspire

23:15

to do it. It was people around me

23:17

that said, the question they asked me

23:20

when they asked me to go for deputy leader was

23:22

like, why aren't you going for leader? I never saw

23:24

that in myself. Other people have seen things. So it's

23:26

a mixture of both. You need good allies. And

23:28

I always say to people, you know, the

23:30

one thing you should do is tell somebody

23:33

whether it's random or family member or whoever, if there's

23:35

somebody that impresses you about something they

23:38

do, just tell them. We don't tell people

23:40

enough about that, especially women and girls, we

23:42

generally tend to need to know. So just

23:44

make sure you give them a tap on

23:46

the shoulder, a postcard, I get lovely postcards

23:48

from women all over the world that will just send

23:50

me a little note saying, oh, I think you're great when you

23:53

do this. And I'm like, it just gives you

23:55

that, it gives you that little bit of especially if

23:57

you had a bad day. So I think that's a really good thing. So

23:59

I think. I think it's not one thing,

24:01

I think it's a number of things. It's

24:03

external people saying you're good at this and

24:06

helping you, but it's also

24:08

an internal evolution. So don't kick

24:10

yourself if you don't think

24:12

you've been the right feminist or you've done

24:14

something that you think, ah, I've let myself

24:17

down a little bit there. Don't

24:19

kick yourself to think, what am I going to do differently next time?

24:21

What can I do today? And you should

24:23

always apply for the job. That's the other

24:25

thing I'll say. That's the other problem

24:27

that we tend to have, we'll look at a job

24:29

description and we'll see a couple of things that we

24:31

don't think we've got and then we'll say, well, that's

24:33

not the job for me. Whereas generally,

24:36

guys in the boardroom will see a couple of things that

24:38

they can do on the job description and many of them

24:40

they can't. And that is definitely my job,

24:43

I can wing the rest. So that's the

24:45

only thing I'd say in the capital feminism

24:47

is that women tend to be really hard

24:49

on ourselves. And actually, you should think

24:51

I'm going to go for it and try

24:53

and push yourself to go for those things.

24:56

There might be a few examples in British

24:58

politics of men who have overestimated their ability

25:01

to do a job. Fantastic

25:03

advice from Angela there for all

25:05

of us to back ourselves. Allowing

25:09

ourselves as women to take up

25:11

space and try new things was

25:13

something I also discussed with Turiya

25:15

Pitt. It's putting it

25:17

mildly to say that Turiya's life took

25:19

a very unexpected turn when she was

25:22

in her early 20s. Working

25:25

as a mining engineer in Western

25:27

Australia, Turiya was caught in a

25:29

bushfire while competing in an ultra

25:32

marathon and suffered devastating

25:34

burns. Doctors doubted

25:36

she would survive, but she's done more

25:38

than that, much more. She

25:40

is a best-selling author, a motivational

25:43

speaker and a proud mum of

25:45

two boys. She spoke to me

25:47

about the pressure women are under

25:49

to excel at anything they

25:51

attempt. I don't think boys

25:54

or men need permission to be

25:56

good at something, to be able

25:58

to have a go. Right? but

26:00

if you're a woman and you want to partake

26:02

in a sport or you

26:04

want to do something, you had to

26:06

let it do it bloody well, otherwise

26:08

you don't have a space, there's no

26:10

place for you. That's really hard when

26:12

you're new to something or when you're

26:14

a beginner or when you're learning something

26:16

new and you can

26:18

probably relate to that Julia with your

26:20

education and your experience. If you're going

26:22

to do something you have to be

26:24

exceptional, particularly if you're doing something that's

26:26

traditionally seen as a man's job. I

26:29

think that's right and I think it's also

26:31

about if a woman does

26:33

something that's traditionally a male thing

26:36

and she fails at it, that's

26:38

seen to say something about the

26:40

capacity of all women, whereas if

26:42

a man fails in a traditional

26:44

male occupation, well that's just on

26:46

him, you know, it's saying something

26:48

about him but not the capacity

26:50

of men overall and I think

26:52

that extra pressure means that it's

26:54

hard to find the space to

26:56

fail and learn and do better and we all

26:59

need that to get better at what we want

27:01

to do and what we're aspiring to do. Even

27:03

if you don't perform

27:06

in an outstanding manner,

27:08

it still seems to be a failure

27:10

which is really hard to wrap your

27:12

head around. I'm a mining engineer by

27:15

trade, I did mining engineering at uni.

27:17

I think there was you know

27:19

five girls out of our graduating class of 40

27:22

guys. Actually all of the girls did

27:24

really really well in the university studies

27:27

and I think that was because we

27:29

felt that you couldn't be mediocre because

27:31

you wouldn't get a chance. You had

27:33

to be exceptional, you had to do

27:35

really well because that was how you proved

27:39

that you were worthy of taking

27:41

up space in that domain. As

27:43

all of these interviews have demonstrated, we

27:46

have a long long way to go

27:48

to achieve gender

27:50

equality. It's something we've

27:52

been fighting for for so long and

27:55

sometimes I feel that it becomes difficult to

27:57

keep the attention on gender equality.

28:00

when there's so much going on in the world,

28:02

so much going wrong. As

28:04

part of this year's International Women's

28:07

Day, I spoke with Dame Sharon

28:09

White, the first woman

28:11

to become chair of John

28:13

Lewis & Partners, the largest

28:15

employee-owned business in the UK.

28:18

I asked her how we continue to

28:21

advocate for diversity and inclusion

28:23

when there's a sense of

28:25

impending crisis in so many

28:27

areas. I sometimes

28:29

think maybe the language doesn't help her,

28:32

and maybe talking stories too. So

28:34

when I was involved in development, which now feels, it's

28:37

before my first, it was about 19 years

28:39

ago, so I'm kind of out of date

28:41

from day to day,

28:43

work perspective. But actually so many

28:45

of the issues were about girls. This

28:48

was the time when the World Bank, where

28:50

the development community was very rightly

28:53

focused on female empowerment,

28:55

and the language then, because

28:58

as today, girls going to school and

29:00

particularly being able to make it into

29:02

secondary school was such a

29:05

massive unlock. Those are

29:07

everything, the jobs for having your

29:09

kids later, for better maternal health,

29:11

better infant health, and even

29:13

when you think about all this with geo-crisis

29:15

or climate change, actually, we've got

29:18

more women voices at the table. I

29:20

remember spending a lot of

29:23

time in Uganda, visiting schools

29:25

and talking about what happens when the

29:28

13-year-old girl has her period, and

29:33

suddenly she's at home for a week,

29:35

and missing the course of her

29:37

school life. And

29:42

obsessive, really important discussions about

29:45

female male lose,

29:47

and you've got female lose as a

29:49

teenage girl, so that you've got privacy,

29:51

so that you can be clean, and

29:54

how do you avoid sexual harassment and all those issues.

29:57

So girls staying in school.

30:00

If such a such a massive unlock

30:02

and then obviously we've got the extreme

30:04

now of what's happening Afghanistan

30:07

I would you know, I would talk about

30:09

girls in the school So when when you

30:11

when you talk when my six year old

30:13

16 year old love in many ways lovely

30:16

boy Although I've got GCSEs this year Was

30:19

the total nightmare when he talks about Feminism

30:22

I'm not a feminist. I'm proud not to

30:25

be a feminist because that's anti men Well,

30:27

I thought I talked to him about do you know

30:30

what's happening Afghanistan? You

30:32

know that if you're a girl you'll if

30:35

you're born with over is you can't go

30:37

to school three weeks ago You

30:39

couldn't go to university now. You're not in

30:41

secondary school. Now. You're not in primary school

30:44

That's happening today. And so

30:47

that's why I think maybe diversity maybe gender

30:49

it maybe these words have become so sort

30:51

of hackneyed and Feeling

30:53

as though there's a sort of industry associated

30:55

with that But we've lost sight of what

30:57

the root of this is, you know My

31:00

mother who left school when she was 11 because

31:03

she was the eldest of nine Followed

31:06

by five boys and then

31:08

three girls and every nightmare. Can I just

31:10

say Every

31:12

time her mother had a baby she had

31:14

to leave school So she did my mother

31:16

maybe did two or three three or four

31:19

years of school in Jamaica could kind of

31:21

write Couldn't read too

31:23

and that's that's what sexism

31:25

and the patriarchal The

31:28

fight it does it means that you don't go to

31:31

school and you're in a manual job or your life

31:34

I want to come now to some of the regular questions

31:36

that I ask each guest on the podcast

31:39

I always put a fact to my guests something

31:41

that relates to their work or their life One

31:44

of the last episodes of this season

31:46

was with Ellie de Marchelier Ellie

31:49

is a proud disability advocate and

31:51

became the face of a public

31:53

campaign To maintain the

31:56

integrity of the National Disability Insurance

31:58

Scheme during the last last Australian

32:00

election. The fact I put to Ellie

32:03

related to the Royal Commission

32:05

into violence, abuse, neglect and

32:08

exploitation of people with disability.

32:10

It was established in

32:12

April 2019 and has

32:15

just handed down its final report

32:17

in September this year. I

32:19

asked Ellie what her reaction

32:21

was to the statistics that

32:23

25% of women

32:26

with disability have experienced sexual

32:28

violence after the age of

32:30

15 and a staggering 40%

32:32

have experienced physical violence

32:34

after the age of 15.

32:36

I am not at all

32:38

surprised. We have known

32:40

these statistics for decades. They

32:43

have remained unchanged for decades.

32:46

I'm deeply concerned that if

32:48

we don't pay

32:50

attention to this final report and

32:53

we don't take it incredibly seriously

32:55

as a nation, it's not a

32:57

moment of national reckoning, then

32:59

we are going to condemn another

33:02

generation of people with disability to

33:05

the kind of statistics that you

33:07

just read out. That

33:10

would be such a

33:12

missed moment to

33:15

not just break free

33:18

thousands of people who

33:20

are currently in

33:22

situations which are horrendous,

33:25

but it would be a missed moment

33:27

to create a

33:30

country that is more inclusive

33:33

and accessible and actually cares

33:35

about its people, everyone's and

33:38

actually sees everyone as a

33:40

human being. I believe Australians

33:43

actually think that way, but

33:45

it's not happening and if

33:48

we don't take this royal

33:50

commission seriously, then we

33:53

are going to miss the moment. I just

33:56

would really urge whoever's listening,

33:58

make sure the

34:00

government is responding. Make sure

34:02

that you're listening to disability

34:04

advocates about what they want

34:06

done. Make sure that you

34:08

are engaging in conversations and

34:10

reading articles, just listening to

34:12

people with disability about what

34:14

they want to see happening

34:16

next and trying to support

34:18

those actions because we

34:20

fought for decades for this Royal

34:22

Commission and it feels like it's

34:24

slipping through our fingers very quickly

34:26

and we need the help

34:29

of all Australians to capture

34:31

this moment. An inspiring

34:33

and really important rallying cry there

34:35

from Ellie, I would really encourage you

34:38

to take the time to look at

34:40

the findings of the Royal Commission and

34:42

how they're being responded to. At

34:45

the end of each interview I also

34:47

put a Virginia Woolf quote to my

34:50

guests in honour of course of the

34:52

woman who inspired the name of this

34:54

podcast. Virginia Woolf famously said

34:56

that in order to write a

34:58

woman needs money and a room

35:00

of her own. It should come

35:03

as no surprise that an

35:05

incredibly eloquent answer came from

35:07

Sarah Holland-Batt. Sarah is

35:10

a poet and won this year's

35:12

Stella prize, an annual award

35:14

for Australian women writers. Her

35:17

winning work The Jaguar is

35:19

a stunning book of poems

35:21

mostly focusing on her father's

35:23

long journey with Parkinson's disease and

35:25

the impact it had on him

35:28

and on Sarah. Sarah is

35:30

a passionate, intelligent and articulate

35:33

woman. She says poetry suffers

35:35

from a PR problem but I think

35:38

she might be changing that

35:40

single-handedly. Virginia Woolf says

35:43

what is praise and fame to do

35:45

with poetry? Was not writing

35:47

poetry a secret transaction, a

35:49

voice answering a voice, so

35:52

that all this chatter and praise

35:55

and blame and meeting people who

35:57

admired one and meeting people who

35:59

did not admire one, was

36:02

as ill-suited as could be to

36:04

the thing itself. A

36:07

voice answering a voice. Sarah

36:10

says, I think that is so

36:13

profound and I think it speaks to

36:15

so much of what I value in

36:17

poetry which is that poetry is a

36:19

long conversation. You can write a poem

36:21

now in conversation with the

36:24

ancient Greeks. It is a continuity of

36:26

language across culture, across time

36:28

and I think the thing that

36:30

I feel so glad about is

36:33

that poetry sits almost entirely outside

36:35

of conversations about economic rationalism,

36:38

about utility, about use. It

36:40

is meaningful and

36:43

powerful and important in our culture and

36:45

in our lives precisely because of that,

36:47

because it is just the human voice

36:50

in its purest form paying the closest

36:52

attention to where we all live which

36:54

is language. We live in language that

36:56

is the medium we use. All

36:59

day, every day and poetry is a sort

37:01

of distillation of that but it

37:03

also speaks across time. So I mean

37:05

beautiful words from Virginia Woolf and what

37:08

an incredible woman she was. Beautiful

37:11

words from Sarah too. In

37:13

the last episode of the season I broke the

37:15

news that I'm moving on from cheering Beyond

37:17

Blue where I've been on the board since

37:19

2014. Beyond Blue

37:22

is an incredible organisation which

37:24

is trusted by Australians to

37:27

provide advice, help and

37:29

support. It is also an

37:31

incredible service innovator which means

37:33

it is driving improvement in

37:36

our mental health system. I

37:38

will miss my board colleagues Georgie

37:40

Harmon, the amazing CEO of Beyond

37:42

Blue and the wonderful team she

37:45

leads. But it's time

37:47

for change and in my final podcast

37:49

this year I introduced you to

37:51

my successor Sam Moston.

37:54

Sam is a respected business leader who

37:56

uses her expertise and platforms

37:58

to drive the business. climate

38:00

action and change on gender

38:02

equality. She was an inaugural commissioner

38:05

with the National Mental Health Commission

38:07

and is known to many because

38:09

she was the first woman to

38:12

serve on the Australian Football League

38:14

Commission. In that capacity she led

38:16

the efforts to develop the women's

38:18

game. Of course she was often

38:20

told no one wanted to watch

38:23

women's playsport. Well at the end

38:25

of 2023 after millions

38:27

and millions of Aussies watched

38:29

the Matildas don't we know

38:31

that's rubbish. Here's Sam

38:33

describing her sense of connection to

38:35

mental health issues and why

38:37

she is so enthusiastic about

38:39

sharing Beyond Blue. I

38:41

remember when I was on the Commission and

38:44

then subsequently realizing that in Australia

38:47

everyone is only one

38:49

or two members of a family

38:51

away from either a very very

38:54

significant mental health matter or a

38:56

suicide. That's the case in my

38:58

family and for the protection of people my family I

39:00

won't go deeply into it but our family

39:02

has experienced suicide, we've experienced

39:04

across generations our family

39:07

significant mental health issues. I think

39:09

we're just a normal family there was nothing unique about

39:11

us but what terrified us was

39:13

like many families is no one talked about

39:16

it. It was either that shame or that

39:18

sense of it's only happening to us. We realized

39:20

as a country that once you sit down around

39:22

a table and just with

39:25

any group of friends or strangers and said

39:28

do you have an experience of significant

39:30

mental illness in your family the answer

39:32

is always yes and increasingly it's taking

39:34

on a form of younger people with

39:36

with anxiety or depression but many

39:38

people would say that they can point to

39:40

a very significant mental health issue

39:42

in their family that they haven't talked about

39:44

before or have felt was just happening to

39:46

them. When I first started thinking about that

39:48

it made me realize just the extent of this

39:50

as a conversation for every

39:52

part of our community it's not

39:55

defined by economic circumstances or educational

39:57

attainment it's something that happens in

39:59

almost every family. or in friendship groups. I

40:01

think we still have to get much, much better

40:03

at that capacity to talk. We've had

40:05

so many incredible guests on the podcast

40:07

this season, but I think the biggest

40:10

audience response we had was to the

40:12

one and only Annie Lennox. Annie

40:15

is of course a powerhouse singer and

40:17

a music legend. She's sold more than

40:19

80 million records as a solo artist

40:22

and as part of Eurythmics. She's

40:25

also a passionate feminist and

40:27

activist. In 2008, she

40:29

established the global women's rights

40:31

organization, The Circle. She

40:34

spoke to me about how exhausting

40:36

activism can be and

40:38

where she draws inspiration from. You know,

40:40

when you become an advocate or an

40:42

activist, it can be extremely

40:45

draining because you often feel

40:47

that you're against a huge brick

40:49

wall. And I've met many people who have

40:51

experienced that feeling of being burnt

40:54

out because it's hard. You're

40:56

often sort of shouting into the void. Is

40:58

it where you feel as if there's

41:00

nothing happening? And yet, you know, change

41:03

is something we can always rely

41:05

on that over the course

41:07

of time, change will happen.

41:10

We never know if it will be for the better or the worse,

41:12

but that is the hope. That's the

41:14

great message from Mandela

41:16

Hope over despair. And I

41:19

think very often I've

41:21

gone back to that message that

41:23

he engendered in his

41:25

life. And for those

41:27

moments when you feel with your

41:29

activism that you might be

41:32

screening out into the void, is

41:34

there a song you turn to that

41:36

makes you feel empowered, praised? Sometimes

41:42

in our lives, we

41:45

all have pain. We

41:48

all have sorrow. Oh,

41:50

but if we are

41:52

wise, then we can see a

41:54

bright tomorrow. More

42:00

lean on me. Beautiful.

42:03

Beautiful. You know, songs

42:06

are so powerful. And I sing, I

42:08

sing it to you just like

42:10

this, just spontaneously, because

42:12

that's that's the gift I

42:14

was given. Just to sing, just to express

42:17

beyond spoken word, beyond

42:20

conversation. When we touch

42:22

on the singing voice that

42:25

everyone has, we touch on

42:27

our soul, go deeper. So

42:30

I know how powerful music is. And

42:33

that song is one of so many.

42:36

Wow. It doesn't get any better than

42:38

having Annie Lennox spontaneously

42:40

burst into song. What

42:43

an incredible voice and an

42:45

incredible woman. That seems

42:47

like the perfect way to end this

42:49

episode and this season. Thank

42:51

you so much for listening. I've loved

42:53

all the conversations I've had this year,

42:55

and I truly hope you enjoyed them,

42:57

too. A podcast of One Zone

42:59

will be back in 2024, but

43:02

with some very exciting changes, which I

43:04

can't wait to share with you in the

43:06

new year. I wish you

43:08

all a safe and happy festive season.

43:13

A podcast of One Zone is created

43:15

by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership

43:17

at King's College London and our

43:20

sister institute at the Australian

43:22

National University Canberra. Earning

43:24

from the podcast go back into funding

43:26

for the institute, furthering the work we

43:28

do to create a world in which

43:30

being a woman is no barrier to

43:32

being a leader. Research and

43:34

production for this podcast is by

43:37

Becca Shephard, Connie Blafari and Aline

43:39

Etot, with editing by Nick Hilton.

43:42

If you have feedback or ideas on

43:44

who you'd like to hear on the

43:46

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