0:34

Hello dear

0:34

listeners, welcome to A

0:36

the podcast

0:36

exploring how to get the

0:39

courageous, trusted and ethical

0:39

political leaders we need for

0:42

the 21st century. My name is

0:42

Lisa and I'm the CEO of the

0:46

Foundation. In today's episode

0:46

my colleague Rebekah Ison is

0:49

talking to Tunisian former Prime

0:49

Minister Mehdi Jomaa. Mr. Jomaa

0:54

was working in aeronautics when

0:54

he was asked to become a

0:56

politician for the first time

0:56

following the Arab uprising.

1:00

After months of political

1:00

crisis, he was appointed acting

1:03

prime minister in 2014 and

1:03

tasked, the tough task I may

1:06

say, with transitioning the

1:06

country to democracy. That meant

1:10

organising the first free and

1:10

fair legislative elections since

1:14

1956 and leaving the top job as

1:14

a result.

1:18

"Even the team the

1:18

first meeting, I tell them, you

1:22

have to prepare your exit,

1:22

today."

1:24

We wanted to talk

1:24

to Mr. Jomaa because of his

1:26

unusual prime ministership, and

1:26

a brand new democracy has a lot

1:30

to teach us about how to get new

1:30

different and prepared people

1:33

into politics. And this

1:33

interview, he talks about the

1:36

need for politicians to be

1:36

prepared exactly that something

1:40

that was lacking post Tunisian

1:40

revolution, the importance of an

1:43

overarching political vision,

1:43

and the skills he thinks

1:46

politicians need today. He also

1:46

calls on young people to claim

1:50

their spot in politics, and has

1:50

some advice for protesters

1:53

calling for big political change

1:53

around the world.

1:56

"My recommendation

1:56

is it's right to protest, to

1:59

refuse the situation when it's

1:59

not acceptable, but try not to

2:03

destroy everything."

2:04

This episode was

2:04

produced at the 2022 Athens

2:07

Democracy Forum, in partnership

2:07

with the Democracy and Culture

2:10

Foundation. Mr. Jomaa is now a

2:10

member of Club de Madrid, the

2:14

world's largest forum of

2:14

democratic former presidents and

2:18

prime ministers who leverage

2:18

their experience and reach to

2:21

strengthen inclusive democratic

2:21

practice, and improve the well

2:24

being of people around the

2:24

world. Enjoy!

2:27

Okay, let's start.

2:27

The reason why I thought it was

2:31

very interesting to speak to you

2:31

for our podcast is that our

2:35

foundation is trying to get new

2:35

different and prepared

2:39

politicians into politics to

2:39

serve for democracy for the

2:44

better of democracy. And I think

2:44

that you have a very interesting

2:47

perspective, because you came to

2:47

power and politics at a time

2:52

where there was kind of a whole

2:52

new set of politicians. These

2:56

were people mostly who had never

2:56

been politicians before, right?

2:59

Yes, right. Yeah.

2:59

So maybe I have a family

3:03

background of politics, and I

3:03

live in this atmosphere. But my

3:08

decision when I were young is

3:08

never touch to politics, never

3:11

been involved with. I was more

3:11

seeking for professional career.

3:17

And that's what happened. And so

3:17

I was living in Europe, for a

3:21

long time, I made all my career,

3:21

okay, here, travelling between

3:25

Europe, United States, China, I

3:25

was in a completely different

3:29

field that was in the aerospace

3:29

industry, which is a very

3:32

competitive and worldwide

3:32

industry. There, I learned a

3:36

lot, I made a good, comfortable,

3:36

professional career. Then

3:42

happened this big change with

3:42

the Arabic spring, which started

3:48

in Tunisia, and there was a lot

3:48

of events, a lot of changes. And

3:53

I was contacted to join the

3:53

government, after the first

3:58

nation political association and

3:58

the trouble, there was a

4:00

pressure to include some natural

4:00

competencies in the government.

4:06

To be honest with you, I

4:06

declined it because I did not

4:09

have a good idea about politics.

4:09

It's the rules and the way they

4:13

are running politics and the

4:13

behaviour of people is, like,

4:17

dirty for me, was really dirty.

4:17

And I'm worldwide professional.

4:22

So I like the rules, I think

4:22

switch are clear. And the rules

4:26

of competition are clean, which

4:26

is not the idea I got from

4:29

politics, but after I accepted,

4:29

because I think that it's an

4:35

obligation for us, you know, and

4:35

my obligation is to serve the

4:39

country as well. So I took one

4:39

year and I considered it like a

4:44

military mission. Other things

4:44

that in my professional career.

4:49

It was made by crisis management

4:49

and the country was in arises I

4:55

have this obligation to serve my

4:55

country. I like Tunisia, it's

5:00

very, very nice country. So I

5:00

decided to go back. And after

5:05

there was another big trouble,

5:05

which was the second political

5:10

assassination, and everything

5:10

was stuck, we stopped the big

5:14

conflict, big trouble. And there

5:14

was a dialogue and there I was

5:19

selected as the Prime Minister,

5:19

to lead the transition to

5:24

organise the elections. And as

5:24

well to face this wave of

5:29

terrorism and insecurity. So it

5:29

was really by the beginning,

5:34

something that I did not think

5:34

about and that I declined. But

5:38

after it was like an obligation

5:38

to the country. And you know, I

5:41

was not coming from any party or

5:41

any political field. So I

5:46

decided to focus on the work to

5:46

succeed the mission on the team.

5:52

No one was betting on our

5:52

success at that time. And I

5:56

think that the most important

5:56

realisation, whatever is

6:00

happening today, is that we

6:00

succeeded to stop the insecurity

6:05

problems, to offer a right

6:05

environment, and to ensure at

6:11

the deadline that we fix it to

6:11

ourselves and agreed with all

6:15

the public to organise fair and

6:15

recognised for the first time an

6:24

independent election. Even

6:24

though today, things are not so

6:29

good and not our aspiration or

6:29

the level of the aspiration.

6:33

Anyhow, it's in our memory, it's

6:33

in our legacy. And it will serve

6:38

us for the future of the country

6:38

and the to service to succeed

6:41

with this new democracy.

6:43

Yeah, I want to talk about, I mean there's a lot there I want to talk about, but

6:45

just to give some background, so

6:48

you were chosen to be the acting

6:48

prime minister in that

6:50

transition in 2014. That year,

6:50

there was a new constitution,

6:55

and the motto of that

6:55

constitution for the Tunisian

6:58

Republic was freedom, dignity,

6:58

justice, and order. And now as

7:02

we sit here today, you know,

7:02

democracy in Tunisia, as with

7:06

pretty much everywhere in the

7:06

world, frankly, it seems to be

7:09

under threat. So now they're,

7:09

you know, it's been how long,

7:12

eight years? With the benefit of

7:12

hindsight, do you see anything

7:18

that the leaders of Tunisia at

7:18

that time when it was this brand

7:21

new baby democracy could have

7:21

done differently to avoid a

7:25

situation like now?

7:26

I think that we are

7:26

speaking about eight years,

7:30

let's say that we are on the

7:30

learning curve. Today, I think

7:34

the main thing for me in my

7:34

analysis today is yes, we

7:38

succeeded in putting the

7:38

constitution, but we forget

7:41

something which is important.

7:41

And that's the lesson that,

7:45

whatever the text, whatever the

7:45

quality of the text of the

7:47

constitution, whatever the

7:47

institution, you know, you need

7:51

the right leadership to meet

7:51

that. It's like, in a plane you

7:55

need a pilot, skilled with the

7:55

quality and the skills and the

8:01

competencies of a pilot, for all

8:01

the democracies. We see, even in

8:05

the mature democraciess, when

8:05

you have a leadership, who is

8:09

not believing or behaving

8:09

differently, who is not really

8:13

prepared to lead this democracy,

8:13

we have some threats. You

8:17

imagine in a nascent democracy,

8:17

it's important the quality of

8:21

the leadership. And when you

8:21

organise elections, and when I'm

8:27

discussing with my colleagues

8:27

from Europe and US sometimes as

8:31

well, in their mind, when we

8:31

organise election, when we have

8:34

elected the institution, the

8:34

problem is solved, and we have

8:36

democracy now. It's necessary,

8:36

but it's not enough. Now,

8:41

really, the deep work that we

8:41

have to do is how to prepare

8:45

this leadership, with the right

8:45

competencies with the conviction

8:50

with the democratic behaviour as

8:50

well, because some of them, they

8:53

see it in Tunisia, in the rights

8:53

in the speech, they are

8:57

democratic, no doubt, but in

8:57

their behaviour, no, they're not

9:00

democratic. And other thing,

9:00

okay, you're elected, you have

9:04

institution, you have to lead

9:04

this institution to the success,

9:08

because what is the aim of

9:08

democracy at the end? It's the

9:11

citizen. And the problem, the

9:11

big trouble that we have in

9:15

Tunisia today, is the

9:15

expectation was high and people

9:21

today, we did not give them any

9:21

back any dividend of this

9:25

democracy, no prosperity, no

9:25

perspective, or the future. And

9:31

they are like disgusted from

9:31

this democracy. And that's the

9:34

real truth.

9:35

And they disgusted

9:35

by the way that their new

9:38

Democratic leaders are acting,

9:38

or do they not see the benefits

9:43

as far as equality or freedom?

9:46

No, they are

9:46

disgusted more by the quality of

9:49

the leaders because of what we

9:49

see, and I was surprised. Really

9:54

discovering you win the election

9:54

because you're a good speaker.

9:59

You're not I spent two years

9:59

elaborating a vision. Before I

10:04

leave, in 2015, we elaborate

10:04

with the team, a vision for the

10:08

country and the set of reforms,

10:08

which was necessary for the

10:12

country to give the means of the

10:12

democracy, you have to reform

10:16

you have to succeed economically, you have to succeed socially. That's the

10:18

means of the democracy. And we

10:22

continue to work on that. I

10:22

spend all my time explaining the

10:26

vision, explaining what we have

10:26

to do, explaining the

10:29

perspectives explaining the

10:29

geopolitics, explaining the

10:32

environment, the set of reforms

10:32

that we have. And I see on the

10:36

other side, who succeeded in the

10:36

election, they were promising

10:39

everything without any

10:39

foundation. So anyone who wants

10:44

to involve himself in the public

10:44

life in the elections, and to

10:49

get the responsibility, he has

10:49

to be aware that it is a

10:51

responsibility, and to have

10:51

clear thoughts, no vision, no

10:56

programmes, no idea, no

10:56

competencies, even though you

10:59

are elected, by a fair way, the

10:59

result is not good for the

11:04

country is not good for two

11:04

people. And this is not good for

11:06

the democracy.

11:07

It's really

11:07

interesting, because I feel like

11:10

you're saying a lot of things,

11:10

even the same language that our

11:15

foundation is trying to say,

11:15

even the language around

11:18

prepared politicians, this is

11:18

exactly what we're trying to

11:21

say. I have a question. And that

11:21

is, then, you know, I look

11:26

around the world that looks like

11:26

there's going to potentially be

11:29

places that find themselves in

11:29

similar situations, as Tunisia

11:34

did in 2014, where there's a

11:34

replacement of leadership. So

11:39

when you have a whole new

11:39

replacement of leadership, how

11:42

can you have politicians that

11:42

are prepared? What do they look

11:46

like? Does it need to be an

11:46

infrastructure, which is what

11:49

we're trying to do? That's like

11:49

having a pipeline of

11:52

politicians? It almost seems

11:52

like impossible to have a whole

11:57

new leadership that is also prepared.

11:59

Yeah. So first, I

11:59

think is the responsibility. I

12:03

believe that there is no

12:03

solution without the involvement

12:08

of the young people. We are

12:08

speaking about the future. And

12:11

such when we speak about

12:11

democracy or change the country,

12:15

it's not a question of months,

12:15

it's long term. You cannot do it

12:21

because you agreed on a text, on

12:21

a nice text. No, it's long term,

12:26

it goes through the education,

12:26

but the only chance for the

12:29

democracy and mainly for the

12:29

nascent democracy is to see this

12:33

young people involved. And to

12:33

young people like I told you,

12:38

this political landscape is,

12:38

excuse me, the word dirty. The

12:46

right people that we need for

12:46

the country, this honest,

12:49

working hard, open mind, they

12:49

don't like such atmosphere. And

12:54

I faced that, I really faced

12:54

that. It was not so easy to

12:58

hire, and to recruit ministers,

12:58

the best ones, but on them, you

13:03

know, we have a very difficult

13:03

mission, no one is bidding on us

13:07

on the success of the mission.

13:07

But you have to, the crisis is

13:12

the threats are very high. And I

13:12

want to be clear with you. If

13:17

you succeed, you will be

13:17

insulted. If you fail, you'll be

13:22

charged. So young people should

13:22

be aware of that. But it's their

13:27

obligation is that country, if

13:27

they don't go through this, to

13:32

make it cleaner, there is no

13:32

chance to expect any change. The

13:39

only way to change is to be

13:39

involved, expecting from the

13:44

existing leadership to open the

13:44

doors. And to these people. It's

13:49

a dream.

13:50

Another way that

13:50

your prime ministership was

13:52

unusual, I think is that you

13:52

were overseeing this transition

13:56

to free and fair elections for

13:56

the first time since 1956. But

14:02

that means by doing so that

14:02

meant that you would ultimately

14:05

give up your prime ministership.

14:05

And that's very unusual for a

14:08

leader, obviously. So as a

14:08

foundation, were interested in

14:12

exploring how to get leaders

14:12

that are willing to be

14:17

reformers, even if it means that

14:17

it might not be politically good

14:22

for them. So how do we find

14:22

those people personally? How did

14:27

you deal with this tension

14:27

personally between reforms and

14:31

your political title? And how

14:31

did you keep your pride in

14:35

check?

14:35

Yeah, I will tell

14:35

you for me it was easier than

14:38

for other politicians, who work

14:38

all their life to get the

14:41

position I'm coming from. In

14:41

other words, I'm coming from the

14:45

industry from international

14:45

career and where we are, use it

14:51

for a mission. And in your mind,

14:51

you have to succeed the mission

14:55

as soon as possible. That's why

14:55

we said one year that As the

15:00

first thing, the second, even

15:00

the team, the first meeting, I

15:04

tell them, you have to prepare

15:04

your exit today, to think about

15:08

that today. That's why. And we

15:08

agreed, all together that we are

15:15

here for a mission, but the

15:15

state will continue. My mind is

15:20

like that we are in a mission,

15:20

we work for a country, it's a

15:25

continuous, are responsible for

15:25

a set for a mission for a step.

15:30

Okay, so you've

15:30

credited Tunisia and strong

15:33

notion of the state as one of

15:33

the reasons for it being like

15:38

the success story of the Arab

15:38

Spring at the time. So you said

15:42

that Tunisia replaced the regime

15:42

and shook the state, but it did

15:46

not break the state. And around

15:46

the world, we see people hitting

15:50

the streets in frustration, and

15:50

some people are calling for

15:52

revolution. Do you still think

15:52

that shaking but not breaking

15:57

the state was the right way to

15:57

go?

15:59

Yes, because in the

15:59

case of Tunisia, I'm used to

16:02

being asked why it succeeded at

16:02

that time in Tunisia and not in

16:07

the other Arab Springs. Why?

16:07

Because we have traditions, you

16:11

know, the first constitution is

16:11

not the one voted in 2014. No,

16:17

the first constitution, it was

16:17

around 1850. So we have a big

16:21

tradition, with constitution and

16:21

with institution. And we have a

16:25

big tradition with the state,

16:25

which is important. And that's

16:29

why my recommendation is it's

16:29

right to protest, to refuse the

16:33

situation when it's not

16:33

acceptable. But try not to

16:36

destroy everything, try to

16:36

preserve the pillars, that you

16:41

can rebuild something which is

16:41

more robust. All the ingredients

16:45

of the state were there just to

16:45

reorganise to improve and to

16:48

make them more performant.

16:50

You've talked about that. We need prepared leaders, but what specific

16:51

traits, specific characteristics

16:58

should we be looking for in

16:58

people that we could train to

17:02

help become emerging leaders?

17:04

Yeah. So let's

17:04

begin by the mission of this

17:07

people, if they are involved, if

17:07

they succeed, if they are

17:11

elected, and if the mission is

17:11

really to manage a country? It's

17:16

not only a question of opinion,

17:16

it's different. It's not a

17:20

question of winning in a debate.

17:20

It's not the question only

17:24

winning election, you need to do

17:24

that. But the people should

17:30

think about the target, the

17:30

target is to improve the life of

17:35

the citizen is to improve the

17:35

position of the state. That's

17:40

the first thing. So this kind of

17:40

people, they are open. They know

17:44

the words as well. It's

17:44

important to know the country to

17:48

know the people, but it's not

17:48

enough. You have to know your

17:52

people that expectation their

17:52

mind, how to communicate with

17:55

them, how to explain to them,

17:55

how to share with them, but as

18:00

well, and as well as it's

18:00

important. They know the word

18:03

they know the future. They know

18:03

technologies, they know all

18:06

these changes, the climate

18:06

change the technology, the

18:09

problem that they see in

18:09

Tunisia, all of that is absent.

18:12

What I'm also

18:12

hearing you say, as far as your

18:15

approach is that they need to be

18:15

good people managers,

18:18

essentially needs to be like a

18:18

good boss.

18:20

Right? Yeah,

18:20

that's good advice. All right.

18:20

Yes, you know, you

18:20

have to manage problems,

18:23

difficulties. You have to manage

18:23

people, you have to manage

18:27

teams, you have to manage

18:27

organisations, it's knowledge. I

18:31

remember, when I was selected as

18:31

Prime Minister, I got to

18:35

discussion with Madame Christine

18:35

Lagarde, she was the head of the

18:40

International Monetary Fund. And

18:40

she's coming from the corporate

18:44

world before. And I explained to

18:44

her what is my intention to do

18:48

to manage the country, and she

18:48

said: "let me me tell you

18:52

something, you will succeed

18:52

because what we learn in the

18:56

corporate world, our reflexes,

18:56

our tools, our way to manage our

19:01

it's more performance in the

19:01

preparation of the leaders, you

19:05

deal with this." I know that

19:05

there is a big preparation, how

19:09

to debate how to communicate,

19:09

it's not enough. That's the way

19:13

but we have to prepare them how

19:13

to manage problems, how to

19:17

manage career crisis, how to

19:17

motivate and the most important

19:21

thing, how to choose people. I

19:21

consider myself that I did not

19:25

succeed. But the team succeeded.

19:25

My only success is how to choose

19:30

the team. And I will tell you

19:30

something, and it's really a

19:34

recommendation of all the people

19:34

who were listening. In my life,

19:38

professional life and even in

19:38

the public life. I learned

19:42

something I cannot hire or work

19:42

with any collaborator with any

19:44

We're running out of time. So

19:44

I'm going to ask you the

19:46

minister with any responsible if

19:46

I don't feel that he's better

19:51

than me in his field. questions that I asked everyone

19:57

on this podcast. us. And the

20:01

first is, what three main

20:01

takeaways Do you want to leave

20:05

the audience with? It's important

20:06

whatever your career, whatever

20:11

your position, to pay attention

20:11

to the country, to pay attention

20:15

to politics and to be involved,

20:15

at least, to be involved to

20:20

understand of the people and to

20:20

choose the right one. But when

20:23

you feel more responsible to be

20:23

involved to be a force of

20:27

change, and the question of

20:27

politics, it's not for

20:31

politicians, and this passive

20:31

position saying that one is

20:36

good, that one is bad, it's

20:36

comfortable for you, but not for

20:39

the country. If you are a group,

20:39

if you are many, you will

20:43

succeed. And we need these open

20:43

minded people. At the end, what

20:49

is important is to fit your

20:49

responsibility is really to have

20:53

a clear target, clear vision.

20:53

And each time, don't think only

20:59

about how to answer the

20:59

immediate or the short term

21:05

solution, you have to think

21:05

about the long term. And each

21:09

decision you have to make for

21:09

today, think about the impact

21:12

for tomorrow. If you do that.

21:12

Normally, it's the biggest

21:17

service that we can give to the

21:17

country.

21:20

Thanks so much.

21:20

What are you reading at the

21:23

moment that we should also read?

21:23

Or recently?

21:27

You'll be

21:27

surprised. I'm reading a book

21:30

that I read when I was young.

21:30

It's from the one of the famous

21:35

books in the Arabic literature,

21:35

the name is Kalila and Dimna. I

21:39

found that prediction in

21:39

English, they call it the Fables

21:43

of Bidpai. I don't know why. But

21:43

she's telling the story of three

21:50

Indian princes. Through the

21:50

story you have a lot of ethics

21:54

about politics about, you will

21:54

be surprised, it is from the the

21:59

abbasid period, it's around the

21:59

century, the 13th century 1220

22:05

or something, or 22, or

22:05

something like that. It's really

22:08

a big surprise at how it's

22:08

describing what we are living.

22:13

And this is our

22:13

final question. What is giving

22:17

you political hope?

22:20

First for my

22:20

country, I think, you know, I

22:22

branded Tunisia, like a startup

22:22

democracy. My hope that it is

22:27

still a startup and we know that

22:27

startups can have many troubles.

22:31

It's not so easy. But I know

22:31

that we will succeed at the end.

22:36

And what is giving me hope that

22:36

the leverage of this startup

22:40

democracy will be not only for

22:40

Tunisians, but for all the young

22:45

people all around us, and I know

22:45

the potential of that area.

22:50

Today we are speaking about

22:50

threats, but I see behind the

22:54

threats all the opportunities.

22:57

It has been so

22:57

nice to speak to you. Thanks so

22:59

much. I hope you enjoyed. Thank you.

23:03

And that was our

23:03

discussion with Tunisia's former

23:06

acting prime minister Mehdi

23:06

Jomaa. Thank you for listening

23:09

and daring to hope. A political

23:09

hope is a podcast from

23:12

Apolitical Foundation. And we'll

23:12

be back with more from

23:15

changemakers helping politicians

23:15

to serve people and the planet

23:19

in the coming weeks. You can

23:19

help us shift the discussion on

23:22

what's possible in politics by

23:22

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23:30

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23:33

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23:37

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23:37

rate, review and subscribe

23:40

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23:40

Last but definitely not least,

23:44

we have a really great weekly

23:44

briefing full of resources, tips

23:47

and jobs for people to want to

23:47

build better politics. I call it

23:51

the antidote to pessimism. You

23:51

can subscribe to that in the

23:54

show notes. It's a great way to

23:54

join our network and keep up to

23:58

date with the work that we do

23:58

and we want to hear from you

24:01

too. I'm sure there are things

24:01

that we're missing and ways to

24:05

make the show better. We're

24:05

always open to new ideas. Much

24:08

love, gratitude, health and

24:08

safety and hope for me and the

24:12

entire a political foundation team.