0:14

Pushkin. Hey,

0:30

Slight Changers, I've got a special

0:32

guest for you this week, Brenee Brown.

0:35

You may have heard Brene's ted talk, The

0:37

Power of Vulnerability. It's

0:39

been viewed more than sixty four million

0:42

times. She's a social science

0:44

professor at the University of Houston and

0:46

is best known for her research on complex

0:49

emotions like shame and vulnerability.

0:52

She's also the best selling author of books

0:54

like Braving the Wilderness and Atlas of the

0:57

Heart. A few years ago,

0:59

I was a guest on her podcast, Dare to Lead.

1:02

We talked about cultivating courage and the face

1:04

of change and how change can affect

1:06

our identities. And so today

1:08

I wanted to continue that conversation and

1:11

talk a bit more about identity, how

1:13

we can find ourselves picking up and holding

1:16

on to different ones over the course of our

1:18

lives. Brenee and I

1:20

discussed a few identities that she holds

1:22

particularly close. Recovering,

1:24

perfectionist, reluctant public

1:26

figure, partner to her husband,

1:29

and parent to two kids. We

1:31

began our conversation talking about one

1:33

of her earliest identities, big

1:35

sister. She says her role

1:38

as big sister really started to take

1:40

shape when she was around eight years old.

1:42

In my family, there

1:46

was a very fine line between

1:49

older sister and co parent.

1:51

I think those.

1:54

Identities grew together

1:57

in an inextricably connected

1:59

way, for better

2:01

and worse. My parents,

2:05

like many of our parents, really

2:08

had no idea what they were doing, and

2:11

they were doing the best they could. They both came from

2:14

a ton of trauma, and

2:16

so very

2:18

early on, my job was

2:20

to maintain as much stability

2:24

as possible in a very tumultuous

2:26

household.

2:29

In the context of young Brune, did that look

2:31

like emotional support?

2:34

It's a tough question. I think that identity

2:37

of.

2:39

Older sister, co parent protector grew

2:43

in harmony with another

2:45

identity that's really profoundly still

2:48

who I am, which is patternfinder.

2:51

I could understand very quickly what

2:54

comment between my

2:57

parents or someone else that was maybe at the house.

3:00

Would unwind in a

3:02

way that.

3:02

Would make things tenuous

3:05

and possibly dangerous. I think I

3:08

was always kind of of running around sorting

3:12

things, calming things down,

3:14

intervening, making sure

3:17

everything was as okay as it

3:19

could be, to prevent some kind of blow up.

3:22

I love this idea of patternfinder.

3:24

I think in so many ways we're kindred

3:27

spirits in that way. I mean, oh, I don't

3:29

know. Yeah, Like, even though I was the youngest

3:31

of four, I was so

3:33

emotionally attuned to dynamics

3:35

and was trying to like implicitly

3:38

or explicitly negotiate

3:40

things, and it was almost impossible

3:43

for me to ever turn that switch.

3:44

Off one hundred percent. I

3:47

actually.

3:49

Have spent probably twenty years of

3:51

my life trying to do work to turn that off.

3:53

I am I am

3:56

always assessing, and I

3:59

very quickly can see

4:03

how behavior, emotion,

4:05

and cognition are connected in people. I

4:09

mean my family growing up, if someone made a joke,

4:12

everyone would laugh and I would

4:15

just kind of like uh. And I could see

4:17

if the exact same joke was made but the context

4:19

was different, there is potentially

4:22

going to be

4:24

a screaming match or potential violence

4:27

just based on the context of it happening. And it

4:30

explains a lot about me,

4:32

which is I was

4:35

not fun. I

4:38

was the protector or the protector

4:41

in waiting. It's

4:43

kind of like that

4:46

movie where the where the kids like I see dead people.

4:48

Yeah, yeah, sixth sense yeah yeah, y yeah.

4:51

It's kind of like I see when shit's getting

4:53

ready to go down. Yeah, absolutely, And

4:56

I don't intervene anymore. But I also,

4:58

you know, want to high tail it out of there and

5:00

take the people I love with me.

5:02

How do you see your relationship

5:05

as protector patterns secret big

5:07

sister having evolved over time? So, now

5:09

that you're in adulthood and

5:11

you're outside of the immediately

5:14

threatening environment, let's say, a family life,

5:17

how has that role changed for

5:19

you, if at all. I mean, it still

5:21

might have those same tones. I'm just curious.

5:25

I think when you come

5:27

from kind of an eggshell environment, there's

5:30

a hyper vigilance around what's going

5:33

to cause the response that's dangerous,

5:35

either verbally, emotionally, or maybe even physically.

5:38

I have done and am doing a lot of personal

5:40

work around it, and continue to do

5:42

it. I think my sisters and

5:45

I call each other out on

5:47

it. One of my sisters will say, hey,

5:49

hey, hey, we know how to handle we're grown up too

5:51

now, and we also think we can do some of

5:53

this way better than you can do it, So back off,

5:56

call your therapist, sit down, you know.

5:59

And so I'm like, Okay, yeah, that's great because I can't.

6:01

Yeah yeah, yeah, what a wonderful evolution.

6:05

I'd love to hop to the next identity

6:07

lily pad if you will, and talk

6:09

about perfectionism. So yet

6:12

another one that we share in common, Vernee, where

6:15

do you think the roots of your perfectionism emerged?

6:18

So let's take genes off the table. So let's say

6:20

you know, we both have a genetic predisposition towards

6:23

this, but environmentally, what do

6:25

you think might have led to that?

6:27

I from an early age, as

6:30

the oldest, as

6:32

the protector, I

6:34

saw and experienced a link between

6:38

my loveability and how good I was,

6:44

and I needed to be morally

6:47

ethically performatively,

6:51

you know, like in every dimension good

6:55

equated to love ability.

6:56

And was this love from your parents or just in

6:59

general from all the adults in your life?

7:01

I think it was from all the adults. I think there

7:03

was this collection of moments

7:06

that just continue to provide data

7:08

piece after data piece after data piece,

7:10

you know, like dependability,

7:16

sacrifice, manners,

7:20

grades, a

7:23

million pieces of data that

7:26

reinforce this idea

7:28

that good

7:32

is lovable and

7:36

not good is not

7:38

lovable.

7:40

Is there a time you remember where

7:42

you actively wished you were not a

7:44

perfectionist, where you felt it's sabotaging

7:47

some aspect of your life.

7:49

I guess one of the things that's dawning on me as we're having

7:52

this conversation right now, is the

7:54

idea of perfectionism being what

7:57

will other people think? I

8:00

am not as

8:03

vulnerable to that as I used to be. Where

8:07

I am still vulnerable is when

8:11

people say you're not a good person.

8:15

That I have to work on that to not

8:17

be crippling. So

8:20

when I do something that people disagree with, or

8:23

I have a position that people disagree with and

8:26

they attribute that to what they think they know about

8:28

me, that can be really,

8:31

really painful for me.

8:34

And how do you engage

8:36

with that pain? What's your response? Because

8:40

surely it's not just changing your position, right,

8:42

you have a set of values, and

8:44

so I wonder when you run

8:46

up against that tension, but

8:49

appeasing that audience by

8:52

changing your point of view isn't on the table. What do you do?

8:57

I try to always keep curiosity in learning

8:59

on the table. I try to extend the

9:01

same generosity to other people that I'd

9:03

want extended to me. I try

9:05

to take in what's learnable

9:08

and then what's mean spirited or hateful.

9:10

But I think.

9:12

I don't know how to do it really well. To

9:14

be honest with you, I don't have a solution there.

9:16

No, and I'm with you girl. So

9:19

yeah, there was an experience that I

9:21

had at work where because

9:25

of a misunderstanding, I felt

9:27

like a colleague of mine thought

9:29

I wasn't a good person and she

9:31

wouldn't engage with me on the topic. So

9:33

I never had the opportunity to

9:37

conflict resolve. And this was one of the

9:39

most maddening experiences for me because I

9:42

am not prideful. I will come to every table admit

9:44

where I went wrong or what my weaknesses are. But the fact

9:46

she wasn't willing to engage brene put

9:49

me into this frantic state

9:51

of panic, like I will never get resolution

9:53

here. I will never be able to prove to this person

9:56

that I'm actually good and I didn't mean any

9:58

harm. And I don't know what it is she even is upset

10:00

with me about. And the only thing I

10:02

had in that moment to work with was my own

10:04

brain, because I had no

10:06

ability to communicate with her. So I had to find a way

10:10

to change my own perception, and so I

10:13

visualized what it

10:15

meant for her to maybe think that I was a bad person,

10:17

And in my head, the visual was there

10:21

are these electrical signals in her brain that

10:24

occasionally occur where

10:26

these neurons fire and say I

10:28

don't like Maya, okay, and

10:31

it's fleeting, and like, I'm not a narcisst I know

10:33

it's having very infrequently, but

10:35

all it is is

10:37

just this transient electrical signal,

10:40

and we pump so much

10:42

air into this feeling of what other people

10:44

think of us as this massive concept,

10:47

and for some reason, that visual took

10:50

the air out of it. It like deflated that

10:52

balloon. It took the power away

10:54

from her. I was like, Okay, so

10:57

I'm going to walk around this world and there's

10:59

going to be humans who have that

11:01

neural activity that

11:03

I don't agree with Maya. I don't like Maya. I think Maya's

11:06

XYZ. And maybe that's

11:08

a world that I can comfortably live in

11:10

and be happy in and find peace in anyway.

11:13

I don't know if that's helpful, but it's just it's

11:15

taken some of the emotional punch out

11:18

of this feeling of someone not liking

11:20

you or not approving of you.

11:22

God, I'm like mesmerized, I'm

11:26

hanging on every word. I just think

11:28

it's so right

11:30

sizing that it's a fleeting

11:32

thought in the mind of a single person

11:35

that we have no control over.

11:38

I mean, it makes so much sense to me.

11:40

And the disproportionate amount

11:43

of energy we spend

11:46

compared to the fleeting littles

11:49

exactly mine.

11:52

You would have thought I was getting my PhD in this

11:54

woman during that period of time, I was like

11:56

ninety percent of my brain power was like how do

11:59

I get her to not be mad at me? And I don't even know why

12:01

she's mad? You know, I put so much

12:04

mental labor into trying to

12:06

solve this problem that was unsolvable. Yeah,

12:08

I meanside though, by the way it just takes

12:10

on this point, as you might think, well, then every positive

12:12

thought people have about me is transient too. But

12:15

I actually think it's good to think of the

12:17

positive stuff as transient as well. I

12:19

mean, because otherwise you can over index

12:21

on that, you can attach so much value

12:24

and self worth to that and then suddenly

12:26

collapses and you don't know what to do.

12:28

I absolutely and the

12:30

positive vilance is much more scary

12:34

for me than the negative personally. To

12:37

be honest with you, I don't like that party there

12:39

very much.

12:40

Yeah, SayMore. I'm so curious, especially

12:43

as because you're such a public figure and so I'm so

12:45

curious to know how that intersects.

12:46

Yeah, I'll go back to Braving

12:49

the Wilderness. When I wrote that book,

12:51

i shared my support

12:55

for Black Lives Matter and why I thought it was

12:57

a really important movement that

12:59

we should be paying attention to. And

13:02

it was the first time I experienced

13:06

people walking out of

13:10

event centers and places

13:12

during my book tour talks

13:15

specifically around that issue, like

13:17

getting up in the middle of like what I'm talking, people

13:21

said they felt personally betrayed

13:23

by me and

13:25

disappointed in me because my work

13:28

had meant so much to them and overcoming

13:32

hard things the death of a child or

13:34

you know, their own eating disorder, their divorce,

13:37

or you know, just like really

13:39

hard things, And then how could I betray them by

13:41

having an opinion a political belief that

13:44

was so far from their own. And

13:49

what I realized in that moment is

13:53

that's a result of

13:55

people projecting on me who they

13:57

need me to be. Does

14:00

that make sense to you at all?

14:01

Yeah, that's that is so interesting because

14:04

basically, they they

14:06

found your work meaningful, therapy,

14:09

resonant. It's helped them during a hard time, and

14:12

obviously they have some fraction

14:15

of an understanding of who you are. Right, they're

14:17

consuming a book you've written, and what

14:19

you're saying is they're essentially filling in all

14:21

the gaps in their knowledge of who you are with an idealized

14:24

version of you that meets

14:26

their criteria.

14:27

I remember the first time I became aware of it.

14:30

Oh, I was telling a story

14:32

and I was like, oh,

14:34

I was so mad. I was flipping this driver off

14:37

underneath that, you know, underneath the steering wall where they couldn't

14:39

see me. And someone said, you

14:42

really actually don't sound very wholehearted at

14:44

all.

14:46

And I was like what.

14:48

And they're like, I thought you were all about wholeheartedness,

14:50

and I was like, I

14:53

think I'm about deep, flawed, messy,

14:56

lovable, amazing humanity like

14:58

I, you know, And so I'm

15:01

not going to be a good

15:05

avatar for you.

15:09

Looking for a messy, complicated, deeply

15:11

flawed person.

15:13

Right.

15:16

More of my conversation with Brene after

15:19

the break. We'll be back in a moment with

15:21

a slight change of plans. One

15:34

identity Brene Brown has had for a

15:36

long time is partner to her

15:38

husband Steve. They've been together

15:41

for decades. I wanted to know

15:43

more about how this identity has evolved

15:45

over time because I'm a

15:47

hopeless romantic and I also

15:50

watch crappy TV like The Bachelor. Just

15:53

indulge me for indulgent for

15:55

a moment.

15:56

This I love about you.

15:57

I mean, there's so many things to love about you, but this

15:59

is one of my favorites.

16:00

Okay.

16:01

I may or may not have attended the live taping

16:03

of After the Final Rows in LA for The

16:05

Bachelor, So maybe I don't

16:07

know. Did I miss a work dated that. I don't

16:09

know?

16:10

Okay, I don't know either. We will

16:12

never know, actually.

16:12

Like who would do that? I mean, wow, what a wait of time?

16:15

Right? Yeah? Okay, so just

16:17

indulge me for a second. And I would love to hear about

16:21

falling in love with Steve, Like when did you know that you wanted

16:23

to marry him? And what was what were the traits

16:26

that he exhibited that made you think, Okay, I

16:28

think this guy. I could make it work with this guy.

16:33

I mean I the first time I met him,

16:35

I went home and told my roommate, I think I'm going to marry

16:37

this guy.

16:39

And we were young.

16:40

We were lifeguards in love at

16:42

a pool over the summer.

16:43

And how old were you?

16:46

God?

16:46

We were.

16:48

Eighteen and twenty

16:50

one, and so we made mixtapes

16:53

and.

16:53

We we like it

16:56

was like.

16:58

Yeah, and you know, and he comes from a lot

17:00

of hard family stuff too, and he was the first

17:03

person that we talked about that. And then we dated

17:05

off and on for seven years and got married

17:07

and we've been married now.

17:09

It'll be thirty

17:11

years in June.

17:12

Wow, COVID the last couple

17:15

of years has been the hardest season of our marriage,

17:17

for sure. I

17:20

think we both believe

17:24

it's supposed to be hard as hell.

17:27

Can you tell me about why COVID in particular was

17:30

so hard.

17:31

I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both

17:33

are. I think, you know, he's a pediatrician.

17:36

I'm trying to keep a business afloat. My

17:39

mom had just been diagnosed with rapid

17:41

onset dementia, and then we

17:44

tried to get snink my mom out of her

17:46

assisted living facility, like in the

17:48

hour before it shut down, where we couldn't get in everybody's

17:51

living together. It was just like

17:54

it was what everybody was going through in the world,

17:56

you know, And we had resources

17:58

and access to things

18:01

that the vast majority of people didn't have,

18:03

and we were still just barely holding on and

18:05

we did not have any bandwidth

18:09

for each other or anything but what was in

18:11

front of us to accomplish that day. And

18:14

that's the conditions under which things, you know, fall apart.

18:17

So it was a rebuild.

18:19

And we're also in

18:21

a weird season of our lives. Our youngest is going

18:23

to college. There's a real like,

18:25

hi, and Brene, nice to meet you. I'm Steve, nice to

18:27

meet you. It's a season on it in

18:30

its own.

18:31

Yeah. You know, you had mentioned that you and Steve

18:33

both believe that marriage is supposed to be

18:35

hard as hell, and I'm wondering

18:37

if you can unpack that for me.

18:40

So I think expecting

18:42

it to be hard, expecting it to be work, it's

18:45

just not two people hanging

18:47

out being themselves. There's

18:49

like that third entity that is your relationship

18:52

that very few of us saw modeled how

18:55

to build it in a way that we want to be in it. My

18:57

parents are divorced, Steve's

18:59

parents are divorced. See's

19:01

parents are divorced, remarried, were married, divorced.

19:03

My parents divorce, We married divorced, you know, like, and so

19:06

we knew what we didn't want it to be and

19:08

we also just knew it was going to be a ton of

19:11

work.

19:12

I've done a lot of hard.

19:13

Shit in my life, nothing

19:15

compares to how hard this is. And

19:18

so I think that

19:23

having kids shocked

19:25

to the system,

19:27

Balancing careers shock

19:31

to the system,

19:34

navigating different career trajectories

19:36

and ambitions, death,

19:39

illness shocks to the system.

19:42

I mean, I

19:44

think I heard Paul Newman

19:47

saying the reason why his marriage lasted so

19:50

long is neither one of them wanted to get a divorce

19:52

at.

19:52

The same time. And

19:55

I think that's so funny and true. But I

19:58

think very

20:00

few of us know how to.

20:05

Fight well, talk

20:08

about our feelings a way where we can stay curious

20:10

with each other and not defensive.

20:11

I mean, I'm still learning that stuff,

20:13

Like we're still trying to.

20:14

Get better, and I mean, hey, the jury still

20:17

out, I would you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a

20:19

lot of shit can go bad really fast. But

20:22

to this point, we were

20:24

able to coordinate our

20:26

individual growth inside

20:29

of our partnership.

20:31

Yeah, it is. So I'm just reflecting

20:33

this moment. It's hearkening back

20:35

to twenty sixteen when my husband Jimmy

20:37

and I got married, and I remember writing our vows,

20:39

and at the end it was something like, you

20:42

know, with all these people surrounding us who love us

20:44

so dearly, you know, I feel that we

20:46

can beat anything. And then I like took my

20:48

pen and I was like, I don't believe that there

20:51

are so many things that could break us, Like,

20:54

yeah, I have the humility to know all

20:56

the many things that could break us. And so I remember striking

20:58

that out and writing instead, the odds

21:01

are in our favor, which

21:04

was such a maya thing to put in a vows

21:07

and made perfect sense to Jimmy and probably made

21:09

it more romantic from his perspective. But it's

21:12

so awesome.

21:13

It's so statistically, I think the odds are good.

21:16

Yeah, the odds are good. So that was kind

21:18

of acknowledging what you've

21:20

been saying this whole time, which is things

21:23

can get really really hard. Yeah,

21:26

as you think to the future, is there an identity

21:28

that you would love to lay claim to

21:31

that you would love to have but you haven't yet?

21:34

God Lee, Sorry,

21:36

that's a toughie.

21:38

No, it's so good.

21:40

I think the identity

21:42

that I have right now that

21:44

I can't wait to see where it goes is

21:49

two have a my guess our mom and

21:53

partner. I I

21:56

there's so much better sweetness in being a mom,

21:59

because the whole gig is such

22:01

a shit show because you're just really

22:03

trying to help them leave you, and

22:06

so that's like tough.

22:07

But of course, yeah, yeah,

22:09

But I will say that I

22:12

have.

22:12

Loved being the

22:14

mom of adult children

22:17

as much as I loved you

22:20

know, four year olds and eight year olds and twelve

22:22

year olds and fifteen year olds and toddlers.

22:25

And it's just watching

22:27

my kids figure

22:30

out who they want to be and how they

22:32

want to contribute to the world and navigate

22:35

their own partnerships and friendships

22:38

is just such a privilege to get to do and

22:40

it's so fun, and

22:43

so I'm excited to continue that role

22:46

and just to see how it plays out and to continue,

22:49

you know, the privilege of getting to be a part of

22:51

their lives. And I think also I'm

22:53

very curious and interested in committed

22:55

to figuring out how Steve and I do this next

22:57

season. And I'll be

22:59

curious to see

23:02

what I want to do with my career and

23:05

what I won't want to do anymore. And

23:08

I have some some usual some suspects

23:10

on the list of what I don't want to do anymore and some suspects

23:12

on the list of what I might want to do. I

23:14

think getting off social for a year was really

23:17

helpful because I do think there

23:19

is the leading of who you are for the avatar.

23:21

Of who you are.

23:23

Yeah, definitely a.

23:25

Lot of the systems that

23:27

we thought would be good around this or broken and

23:31

the algorithms are set the

23:33

wrong way.

23:34

Do you agree, yes?

23:36

Yeah, Yeah, I.

23:38

Don't know what the answer is. I don't know how

23:41

to build community

23:45

have impact. Yeah,

23:48

in a world that's full of so much

23:51

pain and projection.

23:55

I don't know what the experience of your advantage point

23:57

is. I only have my own. But

23:59

I can see myself tempering

24:03

classic ambition in this space because

24:05

I'm afraid of it because

24:09

it just.

24:10

Say that again, because it seems

24:12

like really important. I really want to understand

24:14

what you're saying.

24:15

So I want my ideas to reach

24:17

as many people as possible. What

24:20

I found myself resisting

24:23

in the recent online climate is

24:27

more followers, more likes, more

24:29

downloads, more this, more that, because

24:33

I don't actually know if that's a net good

24:35

anymore, And

24:38

so then what becomes the north star?

24:40

Like, what is my goal? I mean,

24:43

it's meaningful connection with individual

24:45

people, right, how does that scale? And

24:48

the current social media environment

24:51

is so unappealing to me because of what

24:53

it incentivizes. But

24:55

at the same time, I spent a lot of time

24:57

doing a lot of thoughtful work. I want the conversations

24:59

on the show to be widely heard. I want

25:02

it in as many earbudds as

25:04

possible. So like, there's a tension there for me

25:06

and I just don't know what the answers are.

25:09

That's just such a beautiful framing of the question. I

25:11

one of the questions that I'm asking myself based on what you

25:13

just said, is how

25:17

do you operationalize

25:19

ambition? How do you set metrics

25:21

for success in the current

25:23

milieu that we live in.

25:25

So, like, one example of this is that I

25:28

know that a slight change of plans would quote

25:30

perform better if I did more episodes

25:32

a year. This is

25:34

a situation where I will

25:37

only produce high quality content

25:39

if I have a life that I live outside

25:42

of this world, because

25:45

otherwise I'm not living enough of life to

25:47

be interesting or to learn to consume other

25:49

people's content, to read books

25:51

and just be a

25:53

better person.

25:55

But let's but let's can

25:57

I just could you just indulge me for a second,

25:59

please, talking about a

26:01

powerful and beautiful way of operationalizing

26:04

ambition. I

26:07

am ambitious for converse I

26:09

want to have. I am ambitious for books I want to read.

26:11

I am ambitious for my own life.

26:14

Operationalizing ambition in

26:18

a way that includes our lives

26:21

and our families and our health

26:23

and our mental wellness, and then

26:25

setting metrics for success that include

26:27

those same things.

26:28

Yeah, totally.

26:30

So.

26:31

One thing I've done recently, just in case this is

26:33

the thing you want to do too, can really

26:35

help me is every time I get

26:37

a letter from a listener over the last couple

26:39

of years, the ones that really are so beautiful and meaningful

26:42

and that you're just like, Wow, how did I earn

26:44

this trust from you? I mean, it's such an honor, right, So

26:46

I've been screencapping them, and I

26:49

recently created an album in

26:52

my photos app which is called Slight

26:55

Change Love Letters. So on a rainy

26:57

day where I feel low

26:59

morale, go to the album, remind

27:02

yourself, reorient yourself, reground yourself

27:04

and what really matters and is actually

27:07

like all of these tangible lives

27:09

that have been improved by the work that you do, and

27:12

that's just going to have to be enough. That's going

27:14

to have to be what matters, and it's all

27:16

that matters. Yeah, and

27:18

oh okay, let me just share this with you, the

27:20

interview that you did with me on Dare to

27:22

Lead. Yes, I heard from a

27:24

woman who said, I

27:27

heard your conversation with Brene,

27:31

and I've been trying to reckon

27:33

with the loss of my nineteen year old son to a drug

27:35

overdose, and that

27:38

conversation that you had with Brene unlocked

27:40

healing for me.

27:42

M I

27:44

mean that woman that that story,

27:48

that story is kind of the summary of our entire

27:50

conversation in my heart, Maya, because

27:53

that story wasn't like, oh, you and Brene

27:55

are such badasses and y'all are

27:57

rock stars and y'all are the best and better

27:59

than everyone. It was you had a conversation

28:02

that was intimate and hard, and

28:04

that specific conversation unlocked something

28:06

in my grieving process about my

28:09

child who died. It

28:11

wasn't the avatar creation. It

28:15

was you said something that

28:17

helped me heal. And it's not about

28:19

celebrity, and it's not about fame,

28:23

and it's not about who

28:27

we are as people flawed imperfect,

28:29

messy learners. It's

28:31

about trying to put good work into the world.

28:33

Yeah, exactly.

28:39

Every time I talk to.

28:40

You, I learned things, and I

28:42

freaking love how your mind and your heart work,

28:45

and I love how they work together.

28:47

Thank you.

28:47

It's a really unique and special thing

28:49

that I know you work hard at.

28:52

I really appreciate that. And I've found today

28:54

just so lovely

28:57

to talk to a kindred spirit.

28:59

Same.

29:20

Hey, thanks so much for listening. If

29:23

you want to listen to my episode with Brene

29:25

on dare to Lead, check out the link

29:27

in our show notes. And if you enjoyed

29:29

this conversation, we on the Slight Change

29:31

team would be so grateful if you shared

29:33

the episode with someone you know, maybe

29:36

it's someone who's finding their own identity shifting

29:38

lately. It helps us get

29:40

out the words so we can keep making more episodes

29:43

for you. We'll be back in just a few

29:45

weeks with a new season of A Slight

29:47

Change of Plans. See you then. A

29:59

Slight Change of Plans is created, written,

30:01

and executive produced by me Maya Schunker.

30:04

The Slight Change family includes our showrunner

30:06

Tyler Green, our senior editor

30:09

Kate Parkinson, Morgan, our senior

30:11

producer Trisha Bobida and our

30:13

engineer Eric o'kwang. Louis

30:16

Scara wrote our delightful theme song and

30:18

Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A

30:21

Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin

30:23

Industries, so a big thanks to everyone

30:25

there, and of course a very

30:28

special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You

30:30

can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

30:32

at doctor Maya Schunker. See

30:35

you next week.