0:09

Coming to you almost live

0:09

from Berkeley, California, It's

0:13

Aaron's Radio Show with your

0:13

host, Aaron Gobler.

0:19

Thanks, Jake. And

0:19

welcome, everybody to Episode

0:21

65. Welcome to My Three Songs

0:21

where I play three special songs

0:56

chosen by my guest, and we talk

0:56

about why they chose each song.

1:00

Today, my guest is David Toman.

1:00

David is a business colleague of

1:04

mine in the San Francisco Bay

1:04

Area, and he's a photographer

1:07

and videographer. Welcome to the

1:07

show, David. How are you today?

1:11

Doing great, Aaron. Thanks for having me.

1:14

Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm really delighted that you, you asked to be on the

1:16

show. What inspired you to be on

1:18

the show?

1:19

Well, I've had a

1:19

few listens to some of your

1:21

episodes. First of all, I love

1:21

the show. And I first became

1:26

aware of your show and some of

1:26

my friends were guests on your

1:30

show. And I had a listen to a

1:30

few episodes. So I followed you

1:35

on Instagram. And I noticed that

1:35

Eric Bazilian of The Hooters was

1:38

one of your guests, and The

1:38

Hooters had been one of my

1:41

guilty pleasures, since "Amore"

1:41

came out. So I listened to that

1:47

show. And I thought, Oh, what a

1:47

cool concept, and got really

1:52

into listening to it. So that's

1:52

the first thing. But as far as

1:57

my relationship with music is,

1:57

it's always been mostly a

2:01

private enjoyment or pursuit for

2:01

me. And that goes back to

2:05

playing piano and discovering I

2:05

could just play songs all day.

2:10

And it was considered practice.

2:10

It was considered like doing my

2:13

homework. And it wasn't a guilty

2:13

pleasure or anything of the sort

2:18

it was, it was just, it was

2:18

doing something positive in my

2:21

parents eyes, who made me take

2:21

piano lessons. So that was the

2:26

first time I really discovered

2:26

my relationship to music being

2:29

so personal and private. And I

2:29

could always enjoy music no

2:35

matter what kind of situation I

2:35

was in. I remember painting my

2:38

bedroom when I was, well, I was

2:38

the right age so that the only

2:43

LPs I had to play on my little

2:43

turntable were Meat Loaf's "Bat

2:46

Out of Hell" and Boston's first

2:46

album. So imagine that, just day

2:51

after day me in my room at the

2:51

age of 10 or 11., painting my

2:58

room and enjoying it instead of

2:58

it being a chore. So it was it

3:02

was a pleasure.

3:03

Were you painting

3:03

like the Boston logo or

3:06

something on your wall? Or what

3:06

were you doing? Was the painting

3:08

an integral part of the music?

3:08

Or just the music was just an

3:11

integral part of just the painting experience?

3:13

No, the music was

3:13

just the soundtrack to paint a

3:16

room a boring set of colors.

3:18

Okay, okay.

3:21

The part two of that answer is the transformative power of music.

3:22

And I can look back at so many

3:27

times in my life, including

3:27

painting my room where listening

3:31

to music takes me back to a

3:31

specific time or place. I can

3:36

recall sights and smells. I

3:36

remember exactly who I was with,

3:42

and what it was like to hear

3:42

that song. And the first time I

3:46

can picture the first time I

3:46

heard "Sultans of Swing" by Dire

3:49

Straits, I was the little brat

3:49

brother of my older sister who

3:53

was a very attractive, maturing

3:53

blonde and very popular with the

3:58

boys. And they were all trying

3:58

to hit on her. And this one

4:01

local boy was trying to get her

4:01

in his car. And I came with the

4:06

bargain. So we went for a drive.

4:06

And in his I think it was even a

4:12

station wagon. It wasn't the

4:12

most awesome car. But he

4:15

impressed me more than my sister

4:15

when we went out for a drive to

4:19

the beach and he was drumming

4:19

with "Sultans of Swing"

4:21

perfectly on the steering wheel.

4:21

And I was like, Wow, I like this

4:24

guy. Yeah, I remember that every

4:24

single time I hear that song

4:29

takes me back to the to hearing

4:29

it. The first time in the

4:33

backseat of that station wagon

4:33

when I came as part of the

4:36

bargain with my with my pretty

4:36

sister.

4:39

It's really

4:39

remarkable how music can

4:42

transport you immediately. And

4:42

I've met, I've talked with other

4:46

guests on the show about it. I

4:46

have a guest who said that she

4:49

was on a field trip when she was

4:49

younger and she associates that

4:53

with "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van

4:53

Morrison. And that she said she

4:56

can smell the field when she

4:56

hears that song. So it's, it's

5:00

just remarkable how just hearing

5:00

a song like, you know, can

5:04

trigger like you're saying these

5:04

memories. And I think I have to

5:08

go look this quote up, but I

5:08

think Paul McCartney made some

5:10

kind of reference to an

5:10

adhesion, or a stickiness, kind

5:13

of like of certain things to

5:13

each other. And that music is,

5:18

is very, can very easily adhere

5:18

to different times of your life.

5:23

But yeah, it's really remarkable

5:23

how powerful music is in that

5:27

way.

5:28

Yeah, it does. It

5:28

does it every time even songs

5:31

from recent memory that aren't

5:31

part of my, let's say, my

5:35

formative years. They do they

5:35

have the same power. It's great.

5:39

It's why we keep coming back to

5:39

it all the time.

5:42

Yeah. Yeah. David,

5:42

I believe you're doing some

5:45

podcast work. And that's

5:45

obviously a trade that is near

5:47

and dear to my heart. What can

5:47

you tell me about your current

5:49

project?

5:50

Thanks for asking

5:50

Aaron and sorry to intrude on

5:52

your chosen...

5:56

No, please. Yeah.

5:58

I am a photographer

5:58

in my profession, a photographer

6:01

So you're

6:01

synthesizing the photography

6:02

and videographer. And so the

6:02

podcast really grew out of a

6:06

portrait project that I tried to

6:06

launch before the malarkey of

6:11

2020. Everything that's taken us

6:11

to. And so what it involves, I

6:16

have a background as an athlete,

6:16

as well, I was a very serious

6:17

component with the podcast? Or

6:17

is it more that the podcast was

6:21

Ironman triathlete many years

6:21

ago, and kind of lost my way.

6:26

And I lost my mojo. And so in

6:26

trying to get reinspired, I

6:31

thought I would launch a

6:31

portrait project with people who

6:35

are over the age of 50, but

6:35

managing to remain very active,

6:40

whether they're competitive

6:40

athletes, or they just go to

6:44

their swim team practices every

6:44

morning at O-dark-30. And so I

6:45

inspired by what you're

6:45

discovering as you're creating

6:49

got volunteers to sign up for a

6:49

studio portrait and action

6:54

portrait. That was the bargain.

6:54

And then I thought, well, I have

6:59

these people. They're going to

6:59

be in my studio, I should

7:04

interview them. T`hat would

7:04

inspire even more people. And so

7:08

the the photo essay?

7:08

now it's a multimedia project

7:08

with a podcast at the center.

7:17

I would say that

7:17

the podcast was inspired by who

7:28

those people are and photography

7:28

wasn't enough. But the podcast

7:32

is also another... it's another

7:32

way of reaching people who might

7:38

not have seen the photography.

7:38

So I think they both feed on

7:41

each other.

7:42

Awesome. Yeah. I'm

7:42

excited to see what comes out of

7:45

this project. Have you actually

7:45

recorded some some podcasts

7:49

already, or is this something

7:49

that's still in, in production?

7:53

I've recorded one.

7:53

I have scheduled guests for next

7:57

week for two and I plan to

7:57

release the first episode once I

8:01

have about three in the can. My

8:01

first guest was a tap dancer,

8:05

and he's very inspiring.

8:06

Well, I'd be

8:06

delighted to link to your

8:08

podcast, from the liner notes

8:08

for this episode, Episode 65.

8:14

That'd be great.

8:15

And best of luck

8:15

on that. So David, before we

8:17

jump into your song list, I

8:17

understand you spent about half

8:20

your life living abroad. I can't

8:20

say that really for any of the

8:23

other guests I've had on. So can

8:23

you tell me something about that

8:26

experience and especially like

8:26

how it relates to your love of

8:29

music?

8:29

Sure. After

8:29

college, I took off and I went

8:33

straight to Taiwan. And I had

8:33

majored in East Asian Studies

8:38

and taken a very intensive

8:38

Chinese ... Mandarin Chinese

8:42

classes throughout my four years

8:42

of college and I spent a

8:46

semester abroad in Beijing,

8:46

China, as well as a summer

8:50

intensive at Middlebury College.

8:50

And so I thought I knew Chinese

8:54

when I got to Taiwan. I

8:54

originally went to Taiwan to for

9:01

an intensive program, a one-year

9:01

intensive program at National

9:05

Taiwan University. So before

9:05

school started, I still need to

9:08

pay my rent. So although I had

9:08

sworn to never teach English,

9:13

like the stereotypical foreigner

9:13

in any Asian country, I had to

9:18

teach English for a few months,

9:18

while I got my feet wet in the

9:22

society and everything else. And

9:22

before I found another type of

9:25

job, and I found myself on many

9:25

public buses, going from bus to

9:31

bus and English teaching job to

9:31

English teaching job on buses

9:36

and having a walk from the bus

9:36

stops to the buildings that I

9:41

was teaching in. And oftentimes

9:41

in the rain, and I had a Walkman

9:47

with me, or yeah, before a

9:47

Discman, I had a tape of "Rain

9:52

Dogs" by Tom Waits, and that was

9:52

the ultimate soundtrack for the

9:59

situation in Taiwan and

9:59

sometimes I would find myself

10:01

walking on the street in this

10:01

very alien, at that time,

10:04

environment, just laughing to

10:04

myself sometimes even laughing

10:08

out loud at the absurdity of

10:08

everything. And it was sometimes

10:12

the lyrics that were coming

10:12

through my ears and, and I think

10:15

that was part of really what

10:15

solidified my relationship with

10:20

music sometimes because I was

10:20

able to draw back on my, my

10:25

Western upbringing. And I could

10:25

always retreat no matter what

10:28

kind of situation I was in, in

10:28

Taiwan when it was an alien

10:32

environment. To me, it wasn't

10:32

for all 27 years, obviously. But

10:36

I could always retreat back into

10:36

music and get back in touch with

10:41

some things that I loved and

10:41

experiences. And that

10:44

transformative power would take

10:44

me back to the things that I

10:48

loved from my past.

10:51

So was it more like comfort food? Or is it more just like, yeah, how would you

10:53

describe it? In that case?

10:56

It was almost like

10:56

the beat that that kept me

10:59

going, the rhythm that I, that I

10:59

moved to. And that was

11:04

definitely the case, when I got

11:04

into triathlon, and I was

11:07

training like crazy, I would be

11:07

on my bicycle for three or four

11:10

hours a day, or running for at

11:10

least an hour a day. And so I

11:16

would listen to music for much

11:16

of that time. So that gave me a

11:22

great chance to explore so much

11:22

music and also revisit the 80s

11:27

many times.

11:28

Right. So it was

11:28

less of a comfort food thing,

11:31

but more of just like getting

11:31

you into a certain vibration, or

11:35

a certain mood or mode, you

11:35

know, for what you were doing

11:38

that day or what you were doing at that time.

11:40

Yeah, I would say

11:40

that's, that's, that's what it

11:42

does. Like it's stoking stoking

11:42

my, my engine a lot of the

11:45

times.

11:46

Nice, nice, very cool. And I guess that's something about music or art in

11:48

general, right? You can just,

11:51

you can have it with you. Or,

11:51

you know, wherever you are, at

11:56

any particular time in your

11:56

life. So you're over, you're

11:58

overseas, you're very far from

11:58

where you grew up. But yet you

12:03

have all this music, and it's

12:03

kind of there for you. And

12:06

that's very accessible. You're

12:06

talking, you had to use a

12:09

Walkman. So you had to get tapes

12:09

of things. Were you able to get

12:13

tapes of of stuff that you

12:13

wanted to hear while you were in

12:15

Taiwan?

12:16

At first, I just

12:16

arrived in Taiwan, I literally

12:20

had like maybe two cassette

12:20

tapes, and I remember I had a

12:23

Discman with probably six CDs.

12:25

Okay.

12:26

And I can probably

12:26

recall which ones they were,

12:28

they were all jazz CDs,

12:28

actually. But Taiwan was really

12:32

changing at that time and record

12:32

stores blossomed. And so once I

12:35

switched to all portable CDs,

12:35

that was not a problem, although

12:40

sometimes you'd find a gem that

12:40

you wouldn't be otherwise able

12:44

to find. And then eventually the

12:44

the iPod came out and changed

12:48

everything because everything

12:48

became so much more portable.

12:51

Thank you for sharing those stories. I appreciate that. So David, we're

12:53

here to talk about three songs and the songs you chose were

12:54

"Bad" by U2 from 1984. "Love

12:57

Song" by Bruce Cockburn from

12:57

1971. And "The Killing Moon" by

13:08

Echo and the Bunnymen from 1984.

13:08

I'm eager for us to listen to

13:11

these songs together and then to

13:11

discuss the significance of each

13:14

song to you. So let's jump into

13:14

the first song which is "Bad" by

13:18

a U2.

13:23

David, I'm gonna

13:23

guess a lot of listeners are

13:26

having an epiphany right now

13:26

like they thought the song was

13:29

called "Wide Awake" when it's

13:29

actually called "Bad." And I

13:37

don't even think that Bono

13:37

actually says the word "bad"

13:43

anywhere in the song. In any

13:43

case, it's certainly one of U2's

13:46

most beautiful songs. What

13:46

inspired you to include this

13:49

song on your list?

13:50

Well, part of it is just my relationship with U2, which is they're a part of my, I

13:51

would say my budding obsession

13:58

with music as a high school kid.

13:58

And I recall being able to

14:05

finally... I had my, I call it

14:05

my senior license. So when I

14:11

graduated from having a

14:11

learner's permit, as a driver, I

14:14

got my license when I was 16.

14:14

And when I was 17, I was able to

14:19

drive after, essentially after

14:19

dark and that enabled me to use

14:24

my meager savings from mowing my

14:24

grandmother's lawn and my

14:28

neighbor's lawn, that sort of

14:28

thing. And every once in a

14:32

while, take off and go to a

14:32

concert in the New York, New

14:39

Jersey, Connecticut tri-state

14:39

area that I grew up. I was

14:42

already a huge U2 fan after

14:42

seeing them on MTV and it was

14:47

actually the "Gloria" video

14:47

where they just came out of

14:50

nowhere like aliens and that's

14:50

what really struck me, is there

14:56

really is like, we all look the

14:56

same. We're all European

14:59

looking. But they sounded

14:59

different to me, they didn't

15:03

sound American. They were from

15:03

outer space as far as I was

15:06

concerned. On this barge, in

15:06

this grungy looking harbor, and

15:12

Bono in that video looked like

15:12

he had algae growing on his

15:15

leather jacket and but the music

15:15

just hit me, especially the

15:19

Edge's guitar. And that piercing

15:19

sound that the, the voice that

15:25

Bano had in that song. So they

15:25

gripped me from that point on.

15:29

And so that was it, I was

15:29

hooked, especially with the Red

15:33

Rocks concert, I think that's

15:33

where they really came out to

15:35

the big time. And that was their

15:35

Black Friday, actually, as an

15:40

aside that started making money

15:40

after that tour after that video

15:43

came out. So at the age of 17,

15:43

in 1984, they were, they were on

15:49

tour of the "Unforgettable Fire"

15:49

tour. And I was obsessed with

15:52

that album, and not having a

15:52

ticket, me and my best friend --

15:56

Hi, Peter, if you're listening,

15:56

I'm sending you the link -- we

15:59

got in my car, and we took off

15:59

to Hartford, Connecticut and

16:04

went to that concert. U2 was a

16:04

huge part of my... I really

16:09

think it was part of my growing

16:09

up. And it's been more than

16:12

that. They've been a part of my

16:12

life ever since. And another

16:16

aspect is musically, this song

16:16

taught me lessons that I'd never

16:22

really thought about being

16:22

sheltered in the suburbs of New

16:24

York, and never having to deal

16:24

with people that had such

16:30

horrible conditions, or maybe no

16:30

vision for the future and no

16:34

hope for the future that they

16:34

would retreat into drug

16:37

addiction and actually have

16:37

drugs available on the streets

16:41

and, and in their lives at a

16:41

very young age. And so when Bono

16:45

got on the stage and he said

16:45

this is a song about a friend

16:48

who was given so much heroin on

16:48

his 21st birthday that it killed

16:52

him. That just shook me and it

16:52

really brought the meaning of

16:56

the song into focus. And that's

16:56

where the title "Bad" comes in.

17:01

And you know, "True colors fly

17:01

in blue and black," which is

17:04

black and blue, just reversed to

17:04

be from the bruises on your arm,

17:07

the needle tracks. But then he

17:07

says "I'm wide awake" and as a

17:13

17 year-old blossoming into the

17:13

world, that statement really

17:17

resonated with me. Yeah, and

17:17

then U2 really showed their

17:25

true, to quote the song, U2

17:25

really showed their true colors

17:28

and what a brilliant live band

17:28

they were when they took the

17:33

studio version from "The

17:33

Unforgettable Fire," which they

17:36

recorded at Slane Castle in

17:36

Ireland. And they added so much

17:42

to it. And their live

17:42

performances from the "Wide

17:46

Awake in America" EP with the

17:46

ringing keyboards, that

17:50

repetitive ringing keyboards.

17:50

And then Larry Mullen's kind of

17:54

martial drumbeat that comes

17:54

through. It's like a succession

17:59

from "Sunday Bloody Sunday" and

17:59

it really propels everything

18:02

forward. And then that really

18:02

took on extra energy in their

18:06

live shows. And then it really

18:06

reached a crescendo at Live Aid

18:11

where they could, The Edge could

18:11

just keep ringing that guitar

18:15

and the keyboards provided that

18:15

cushion in the background and

18:20

Bono just took off with that.

18:20

And that was really, their

18:22

coming out to the whole world.

18:24

I believe that

18:24

live performances really show

18:27

the mettle of a band, and their

18:27

professionalism and skill. And

18:32

these are all people all these

18:32

performers are all incredibly

18:35

talented on their own. And when

18:35

you bring them all together,

18:38

like that, and then you're

18:38

saying in live a performance,

18:40

it's just it's a performance,

18:40

but it's like an experience,

18:44

it's a they may never perform

18:44

exactly the same way the same

18:48

song. So it can be a unique

18:48

experience. And it was just a

18:53

brilliant, brilliant performance

18:53

and experience.

18:56

Bono would definitely not jump into the audience in the exact same way

18:58

he was really trying to make

19:02

friends. I think he has... he

19:02

had a little bit of insecurity

19:04

at the time where you had to

19:04

meet meet every single member of

19:07

the audience during one song.

19:09

Okay. Well, David,

19:09

thanks for including that song.

19:14

I I believe that's the first U2

19:14

song that's been on someone's

19:16

list. So I'm really delighted to

19:16

have U2 on this show. The next

19:20

song on your list is "Love Song"

19:20

by Bruce Cockburn. So let's give

19:24

that a listen. And we'll talk

19:24

about it on the other side.

19:31

That's a

19:31

beautiful song, very simple and

19:42

brief. I was introduced to

19:42

Cockburn's music back when I was

19:45

in college in the 80s by my

19:45

roommate Jason Staal, who was

19:49

actually guest on the show

19:49

months ago. You know, I know

19:52

several Cockburn tunes, mostly

19:52

like the more famous ones, but

19:56

I'm not familiar with this

19:56

particular one. Why did you

20:00

choose to add this tune to your list?

20:01

It's really a far

20:01

cry from "If I Had a Rocket

20:04

Launcher," isn't it?

20:05

Yeah. Or talking

20:05

about the International Monetary

20:10

Yeah. "Kicking at

20:10

the darkness till it bleeds

20:10

Fund. daylight."

20:14

Yeah, exactly.

20:15

I was introduced to

20:15

this song in college myself by

20:19

one of the most graceful people

20:19

I've ever met. And I associate

20:26

the song with that experience.

20:26

But the song just transports me

20:32

every time I hear it, I have to

20:32

stop. I can't. It's something

20:36

that could never be background

20:36

music. I actually, as we were

20:39

listening to it, I had my head

20:39

in my hands. And I was just

20:43

concentrating and enjoying the

20:43

music. It just transports me

20:45

every time it hits me in the

20:45

heart I can, I can feel the

20:49

ache. There's something about it

20:49

that just speaks to me. And it's

20:54

the it's mostly the melody the

20:54

way Cockburn sings. And it just

21:00

touches me it touches me the way

21:00

Jeff Buckley's music touches me.

21:04

And I can't take it lightly.

21:04

Every time I listen to the song,

21:10

I have to be prepared to listen

21:10

to it. Because like I said, it's

21:14

not something I can listen to

21:14

casually, I have to allow it to

21:18

pick me up and take me somewhere

21:18

and make me feel something. And

21:23

it's the same when I'm, I don't

21:23

just casually put on Jeff

21:26

Buckley's music, I have to be in

21:26

the mood to be very present and

21:31

taken somewhere because it

21:31

touches me so deeply. And this

21:34

song is the same, it touches me

21:34

that way is just so beautiful

21:40

and so gorgeous. Just on the

21:40

surface, and then I also just

21:46

love the way the lyrics, they're

21:46

not very explicit, I wouldn't

21:52

say it's a love song to a

21:52

specific person. And when you

21:59

look at the lyrics, he's he's

21:59

speaking to somebody or some

22:06

thing that is in him. And then

22:06

he is in that someone or

22:13

something as well. And it could

22:13

just be like a connection or an

22:16

energy. And I've, I've even

22:16

heard that it was supposed to be

22:20

a devotion to Jesus or God. But

22:20

I haven't seen corroboration of

22:26

that. But just, and he, there is

22:26

an eternal stirring here that

22:33

"You shine across my time." And

22:33

then no matter even though I

22:37

have my eyes closed, "Though my

22:37

eyes be closed forever, still, I

22:40

would find you." So it's a

22:40

devotion in a way and I don't

22:44

find it in a religion in a

22:44

religious sense. It's just, it's

22:48

about a very deep love, so I can

22:48

understand why he would call it

22:51

"Love Song." It's the title and

22:51

the song are so simple and

22:56

beautiful on the surface, but

22:56

they touch on very deep devotion

23:03

and inspiration. That's why I

23:03

chose it.

23:06

Yeah, something

23:06

very incredible about art, and

23:09

that even in visual art, the

23:09

artists creates it with a

23:13

certain intent and feeling and

23:13

vibration. But how you see it or

23:18

how you use it or how how it

23:18

vibrates with you may be

23:22

completely different. And like

23:22

you're saying, you know, we're

23:25

not exactly sure what Cockburn

23:25

was basing the song around. But

23:31

it's kind of a template for you

23:31

to kind of apply to in your own

23:34

way. But as you're also, as you

23:34

started talking about this, I'm

23:38

thinking, you know, like the U2

23:38

song is something you might just

23:40

hear, you may just turn on the

23:40

radio today, or on some

23:43

playlists, some, you know,

23:43

Pandora or something, you might,

23:46

it may just end up there and you

23:46

hear it. But the song by

23:50

Cockburn seems like something

23:50

you would need to seek out, like

23:52

you'd actually have to purposely

23:52

play that song. And where the U2

23:58

may just come up and you hear it

23:58

and then it brings back all

24:00

these memories. It sounds... I

24:00

feel like the Bruce Cockburn

24:03

song is a little more obscure

24:03

and you'd actually have to seek

24:06

it out. Do you seek it out and

24:06

play it? Or is it on a playlist

24:09

that would normally just like

24:09

all of a sudden it shows up in

24:13

your ears?

24:14

No, it never shows

24:14

up. And I know similar to you,

24:18

people know Bruce Cockburn,

24:18

especially Canadians, eh? But

24:25

but it's not a well known song

24:25

of his and it's, I wouldn't

24:32

have... I might have skipped

24:32

over it. I was familiar with you

24:34

know, I was kind of rebellious,

24:34

in my mind, college student

24:38

getting into Bruce Cockburn when

24:38

I was there and I skipped over

24:43

his very early music and that

24:43

album from 1971 is super old,

24:49

it's already over 50 years old.

24:49

Believe it or not. It's crazy.

24:54

And yeah, so I have to seek it

24:54

out. I have to go. It's you

24:58

can't even find it... I don't

24:58

think you can find on YouTube

25:02

except maybe a live performance

25:02

that's really poorly recorded.

25:06

Yeah. So it's, it's something I

25:06

have to seek out. And I don't

25:10

know, it was serendipity that I

25:10

was sitting in a dorm room and

25:13

somebody played it. And that was

25:13

it, it touched me forever.

25:17

Wow. Nice. It's a

25:17

beautiful song. Thank you for

25:20

including that on your list.

25:20

That's an example of like, I, I

25:24

think for a lot of people, or

25:24

maybe almost everybody or

25:26

everybody listening may never

25:26

have heard that song before. And

25:29

now they get to hear it. And I'm

25:29

hoping some people explore some

25:33

other Bruce Cockburn music and

25:33

like we were talking about at

25:35

the very top there is like, he's

25:35

got quite a variety of themes

25:39

that he sings about in the

25:39

songs. And there are probably

25:42

some songs that people of our

25:42

age will, if they went and

25:47

sought out his, his library of

25:47

music would be like, Oh, that

25:50

song's by him. I've heard that

25:50

song before, I didn't know it

25:53

was Bruce Cockburn. Kind of a

25:53

low key performer in that

25:56

regard.

25:57

Yeah, I agree. It's

25:57

really my pleasure to be able to

26:00

introduce that song to people

26:00

because I believe it will,

26:04

anybody that hears it, will for

26:04

sure they will recognize its

26:07

beauty and then anything beyond

26:07

that the surface beauty will be

26:11

a bonus. I hope it resonates.

26:14

Thank you again

26:14

for including that, David. The

26:16

last song on your list is "The

26:16

Killing Moon" by Echo and the

26:19

Bunnymen and I have to say when

26:19

I first heard that group name

26:22

back when MTV was on and such I

26:22

just didn't know what to make of

26:26

it. It seems very silly, but

26:26

they apparently are very

26:29

talented band. Let's give a

26:29

listen to "The Killing Moon"

26:34

from 1984.

26:35

David, I'd heard

26:35

this song before. But honestly

26:38

the two songs I associate with

26:38

Echo and the Bunnymen are "The

26:45

Cutter," and especially "Lips

26:45

Like Sugar," which which

26:58

definitely appears on like every

26:58

single 80s collection album. Now

27:02

I also believe that there

27:02

probably is some kind of

27:04

backstory to this particular

27:04

song, "The Killing Moon." What

27:08

inspired you to include this

27:08

song on your list? And like what

27:10

other information can you give

27:10

me about the song?

27:12

Well, I think it's

27:12

just a very unusual song. It's

27:16

not your typical rock song the

27:16

way it starts with that zither

27:20

like, I think it was actually

27:20

they hired maybe an Indian, it

27:23

was maybe tangentially related

27:23

to the fact that the Bunnymen

27:29

come from Liverpool and The

27:29

Beatles got into all that. You

27:34

know, Ravi Shankar, sitars

27:34

stuff. I don't even know if that

27:38

was conscious on their part, but

27:38

they are from Liverpool and I

27:40

like to think of them as, as the

27:40

best band that came out of

27:43

Liverpool not being a huge

27:43

Beatles fan myself. No offense

27:48

to Beatles fans. I just find it

27:48

it's a really haunting song for

27:54

me. So once again, going back to

27:54

the way it makes me feel and

27:59

then digging deeper into the

27:59

lyrics. And the backstory of the

28:04

song is just, very briefly, I

28:04

understand that Ian McCulloch,

28:07

the lead singer and songwriter

28:07

for the Echo and the Bunnymen

28:11

woke up one day and he said the

28:11

song wrote itself it was in his

28:15

dream. And so he likes to say

28:15

he, he gives God a co-writing

28:19

credit. Because he woke up and

28:19

it was written, and he just

28:23

basically had to sit down and,

28:23

and write it down on paper. And

28:27

then it also has, it just has so

28:27

many moments of musical

28:31

brilliance including that outro.

28:31

If you if you listen to the

28:35

outro while McCulloch is doing

28:35

his "la la la's", the guitar

28:39

player is playing a brilliant

28:39

outro solo that doesn't get in

28:43

the way of the song. It keeps

28:43

repelling it on and just raising

28:47

the level without raising the

28:47

volume. Staying out of the way

28:53

of the lead singers and some of

28:53

the lyrics just kill me. No pun

28:59

intended because my

28:59

interpretation of the song is

29:02

it's really kind of about the

29:02

Grim Reaper coming and waiting

29:05

for you. And that it's really

29:05

predestination we're all going

29:10

to die and so, it's you know,

29:10

fate up against your will no

29:15

matter what he you'll give

29:15

yourself to him and whether

29:19

it's... it could be fate in your

29:19

life, but it could be the fate

29:23

of eventually shedding this

29:23

mortal coil. The lyrics that

29:29

really get me are "Your lips, a

29:29

magic world. Your sky, all hung

29:33

with jewels. The Killing Moon

29:33

will come too soon." I love

29:37

"Your sky, all hung with

29:37

jewels." Just just there's

29:41

something it's like a fatal

29:41

attraction with maybe even like

29:45

the kiss of the wolf or

29:45

something like that. You cruelly

29:49

kissed me and then your lips

29:49

were a magic world and the sky

29:51

was... it was a magic moment but

29:51

it's a deadly thing that he's

29:55

talking about. It's very it's

29:55

deadly serious when you get down

29:59

to it. It sounds so foreign

29:59

sometimes. And then like who

30:04

would put that kind of jangly

30:04

guitar at the beginning of a

30:08

rock and roll song. It's not

30:08

"Lips Like Sugar" which is...

30:11

"Lips Like Sugar" is a great

30:11

song. And I think of it is like

30:16

the "Lucy in the Sky with

30:16

Diamonds" devotion to cocaine.

30:21

But it's more bubblegum than it sounds.

30:22

It is, it is.

30:26

It's a true 80s is

30:26

kind of bop, more of an upbeat

30:29

song if you... I don't know

30:29

enough of the Echo and the

30:32

Bunnymen of their catalogue but

30:32

all of these songs are... seem

30:36

very kind of, not completely

30:36

dark, but definitely dour or

30:41

very off-key in their sounds.

30:46

Yeah, that definitely runs through them. They are a very minor key dark

30:48

dissonant. And they worked that

30:54

into pop music, if you can call

30:54

them pop music. They never made

30:59

the real mainstream, although

30:59

"Being on the Dancing Horses," I

31:03

believe was on the Pretty in

31:03

Pink soundtrack. So they they

31:06

were able to reach the big time

31:06

that way. And then it was "Lips

31:09

Like Sugar" got a lot of airplay

31:09

and still does. It's probably

31:12

got like a billion Spotify

31:12

listens, which would be nice to

31:17

know. But yeah, they're not a

31:17

huge selling band. Although

31:21

they're still around, I actually

31:21

had the pleasure of attending a

31:24

concert by Echo and the Bunnymen

31:24

at the Fox Theater in Oakland

31:28

just a couple months ago, and

31:28

they were legit, still really

31:32

good. One other aspect about

31:32

this song is it really

31:36

encapsulates how I sometimes

31:36

respond to music, which is I

31:41

oftentimes have a very visceral

31:41

response to a song, the first

31:47

time I hear it, or the first

31:47

several times I hear it, and it

31:49

might not be positive. And I

31:49

think I'm an analytical person

31:53

in a way and whether I like it

31:53

or not, there's something about

31:57

it that strikes me and I want to

31:57

understand I want to get to the

31:59

bottom of it. In this song, the

31:59

way it comes out with that

32:02

dissonant out of key sounding

32:02

clanging guitar that struck me

32:07

and I don't recall exactly, but

32:07

I don't think it was super

32:10

appealing to me at the time. And

32:10

I've, I've had that kind of

32:15

experience with, with songs in

32:15

the past where something

32:18

actually drove me nuts upon my

32:18

first several hearings of it,

32:23

but eventually I came to make

32:23

peace with it, and have and even

32:30

really love, what it's all about

32:30

and become a big admirer of what

32:35

it's about. And so that is the

32:35

kind of experience I had with

32:40

this song. It struck me as very

32:40

odd and unusual, and maybe

32:47

something that I didn't want to

32:47

befriend, but eventually it got

32:51

into me.

32:53

I think that's

32:53

pretty common, the experience

32:55

of, at least for me, I've

32:55

experienced where I'll, like you

32:57

said, I'll hear a song, and

32:57

it'll seem very different. But

33:01

then as I listened to it more,

33:01

I'm like, I appreciate that

33:04

more. And I actually can listen

33:04

to the song a lot more often

33:06

than something that's more

33:06

bubblegum, which sounds really

33:10

great when you first hear it,

33:10

but then you can tire of it

33:12

pretty fast. I use that bubble

33:12

gum, you know, it gets stale

33:16

after a little bit, but a lot of

33:16

some of the songs just will,

33:19

will remain fresh.

33:21

Yeah, I think we

33:21

can contrast that with with some

33:23

of the songs that we might be

33:23

hearing these days, there's,

33:26

there's definitely, if I may be

33:26

so bold as to assert there's

33:30

more depth to the music, even a

33:30

lot of the pop from the 80s.

33:35

There's, there's a bit more

33:35

depth there that you can dig

33:38

into and peel that onion and get

33:38

into versus something like you

33:43

know, Ed Sheeran, "The Shape of

33:43

You," it's on the surface, it's

33:46

it's catchy. And then yeah, and

33:46

then he's just talking about

33:49

basically picking up a chick at

33:49

the bar and it doesn't...

33:52

there's no other... there's no

33:52

onion to peel with that song.

33:56

No, that's a

33:56

great, great kind of a analogy

33:59

and metaphor. I like that. So

33:59

David, is there anything else

34:03

you'd like to share about your

34:03

selections, like things to be

34:05

thought of while we were playing

34:05

them? Or questions I didn't ask

34:08

you. I'll just say I did notice

34:08

the two of your songs were from

34:12

1984. So maybe there's some

34:12

significance there.

34:15

Bingo. Yeah, we

34:15

actually went from 1984 to 1971.

34:20

And then went back, did a 180

34:20

back to 1984. Which, yeah, yeah.

34:25

And I didn't choose those songs

34:25

consciously because they were

34:31

issued in 1984. But that struck

34:31

me as interesting. And so I was

34:36

thinking back on 1984 and and

34:36

what other records came out that

34:41

year, and I've just found a list

34:41

of things and made a list of

34:46

records from that year. And it's

34:46

just extraordinary that looking

34:50

back at that time, and it's more

34:50

momentous to me as a music

34:55

lover, and that there's been

34:55

other years that were great

34:59

or... there's still great music

34:59

and I'm not noticing it. But

35:03

just go back to that list and

35:03

you'll see "Purple Rain" by

35:06

Prince or "Like a Virgin" by

35:06

Madonna. Of course Echo and the

35:10

Bunnymen came out with "Ocean

35:10

Rain," which is a great record.

35:14

That song came from U2

35:14

"Unforgettable Fire". And even

35:21

"Pink Houses" by John Mellencamp

35:21

came out that year. Yeah, Simple

35:26

Minds, "Sparkle in the Rain." So

35:26

many great records came out in

35:29

1984. So there's, there's some

35:29

significance to that. And of

35:35

course, like I said, I was it

35:35

was my coming out. So maybe

35:38

subconsciously, I grew into my

35:38

independence when I got that

35:42

driver's license that allowed me

35:42

to go out and enjoy the

35:46

pleasures of driving along to

35:46

the radio. I think that was a

35:50

big thing. Yeah, I can recall,

35:50

the first time I really rocked

35:57

out with the windows open, in my

35:57

own car was was "Let's Dance" by

36:02

David Bowie. I heard that on the

36:02

radio. And I was just surprised

36:07

that I didn't cause an accident

36:07

or have an accident, I was just

36:10

so psyched up driving to that song.

36:12

It's easy to just kind of break music down into decades. But you know, your

36:14

remark about 1984 is, you know,

36:19

you could go through the

36:19

Billboard Top 100 lists from

36:23

each of the years within a

36:23

decade, and there certainly are

36:26

some standout years, and I'm not

36:26

sure what was... something was

36:30

in the water that year, or

36:30

something was going on

36:33

politically, or just, you know,

36:33

who knows?

36:36

Well, I think

36:36

possibly it, it could even come

36:39

from the record industry was

36:39

just allowing those records to

36:42

get out and was taking more

36:42

chances. Because there it was a

36:46

profitable industry at the time.

36:46

And so they were just and I

36:52

don't think we can overlook the

36:52

impact of MTV at that time,

36:57

because you had video to support

36:57

your music at the time. And so

37:02

yeah, everyone is making a video

37:02

is getting on MTV. And for

37:07

Americans as an audience, we saw

37:07

really like a "British Invasion"

37:13

and a second "British Invasion"

37:13

with the music videos. And I

37:18

think a lot of... there must

37:18

have been like a budget thing

37:22

that fed into to that because

37:22

there are a lot of really,

37:25

there's a lot of great music

37:25

that came out that maybe there

37:28

were a bit of one hit wonders

37:28

and that sort of thing as well.

37:32

But it was allowed to, to

37:32

blossom at that time.

37:36

Yeah. Well, David,

37:36

this has been a lot of fun. And

37:40

I want to thank you again for taking time to be on the show. I had a great time. And I hope you

37:41

enjoyed yourself too.

37:43

I had a great time.

37:43

Thank you for letting me talk

37:49

about one of my favorite things

37:49

in the world, music.

37:52

Great. It's my

37:52

pleasure, it's my pleasure. And

37:54

to my listeners if you want to

37:54

be part of the show, start by

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37:58

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