Akshaya Bansal finished a PhD studying how to use light to destroy cancer, joined Entrepreneur First to try her hand at entrepreneurship before joining Esco Ventures as an Associate. Learn about Esco Venture's venture programme for biotech experts, the biotech system in Southeast Asia, and about biotech approaches to developing COVID vaccines.

https://www.escoventures.com/

Company
Carmine Therapeutics (https://www.carminetherapeutics.com/)

Book
Age of Stagnation

Tools
Airtable

[00:00:00] Alvin: Hey guys, welcome to Abyss Gazing where I interview entrepreneurs on how they are building their companies in a post COVID world. If you like the topic, but you can't stand the length, check out the website, abyssgazing.com that's a, B, Y, S, S, G, a, Z, I N, g.com where I post show notes and full transcripts of all the episodes. 

 Okay. Three, two, one. Welcome to Abyss Gazing.

Joining us today is actually Akshaya Bansal, a venture fellow ESCO ventures, where she does technology scouting and venture building. For biotech startups in Singapore and Southeast Asia. So, uh, actually, can we start off, like, can you tell us a bit about your background and how you got into biotech investments?

Akshaya Bansal: Sure. Thanks Alvin. So, um, I did my PhD from NUS in biomedical engineering and nano medicine. And then I did a two, two and a half years of a [00:01:00] postdoc work as well, which is basically research. And then I got into, um, entrepreneur first where I had my first taste of entrepreneurship and it was a completely different world.

Now she got me really interested in the venture capital space itself. And then I also realized how different software and biting investing is, which is why I wanted to see for myself how biotech investing works. And that's how I landed up at Esther ventures and their amorphous program. I can tell you more about it later.

So. Oh, yeah. That's how I landed up. So it was, I'm a part of the Marcus's program, a venture fellow at Esquire ventures. And we are when you build up and the focus on biotech companies only, um, yeah, and we work with BIS from the very beginning and help them start a company. 

Alvin: So there's been a lot of attention on biotech recently because a lot of VC's on Twitter and so on, they are saying that.

There's going to be a Renaissance in the biotech investment field. You [00:02:00] do like attention from COVID and so on. So it can tell us a bit about the differences between biotech ventures and software ventures, which is a more common form of startups that you see on there. 

Akshaya Bansal: Sure. So, um, biotech actually has been a very hot space for investment in the last five or six years, I would say, um, more so in the U S where like billions of dollars of funding, um, Go into it every year in Asia, it is catching up.

It is inherently very different from how software companies work. Um, in a software company, you would have a minimum viable product, which you can deploy easily. You can do several rounds of testing and you can have a product out there and reading the new in a fairly short period of time. Um, but in biotech, it's very different.

Um, product life cycles can be very long. Many many years to develop something. So when you first put in money into an idea, you don't, you might not actually have a product. You might not have bought it for years to come, but you [00:03:00] bet on the science and you bet on the people doing the science and that's where the difference lies.

So you identify a problem and then we move to the solution. And if it's good enough, you spend a lot of time and effort and energy into developing that. So essentially the defense would be itself at companies. You could see a product. In a fairly short period of time. But, um, for, by the companies, the investments are, are very long term and you might never get a product.

Um, and the two have to be from the science and also the regulatory approvals around biotech products are very different from those in a software company. So for biomedical products, especially drugs are, you have to go to drinking, testing, um, Phase one phase two and phase three, you have Googles to deal with.

And that can take a long time and the drug can get killed at any stage of that process. So it is a risky business, but it's very rewarding because in the end you will end up helping millions of people at your product success. Yeah. Well, 

[00:04:00] Alvin: there's one thing you mentioned, uh, in your description of the differences that they struck out to me.

So you said you still start from the problem and then you develop solutions. From like the biotech investment point of view, you still see, like there has to be the problem first before you come in and build solution for that. So let's say your PhD is on a new property of these kinds of enzymes, but it's just something, some interesting discovery.

You, uh, what a startup being possible to be possible, make a start of that or the. Like from an investment point of view, still rather focus on the problem. Then the solution, 

Akshaya Bansal: I would say the problem always comes first and you might have super interesting tech, but if you don't have any way to use it, then, um, I'm not any, then it's, it's not as investible to begin with, but we always have the problem in biotech in the biotech space, you [00:05:00] identify a clinical need.

And you have a white space. You know, there is a problem that exists and there's no other solution. There's no solution at present. I can solve it. And then you go out there and you look for technologies that can help you solve. It could be as simple as this coming up with a hypothesis and gathering different types of technologies that can be put together to solve it problem.

But yes, the problem is, 

Alvin: so that let's say you, if, uh, you identify a problem that you're working in the university lab, you identify a problem. The solution doesn't necessarily come from your own research. You can go over papers that people have done before and bring them together and create a solution based on that.

Is that, is that a common practice that you have seen in biotech startups? 

Akshaya Bansal: Um, so maybe I can put it in a slightly different way. So, um, a lot of university labs, they focus on developing really cool science and, but they might not, like you said, necessarily have an idea of what problem to solve. [00:06:00] They're working mostly on the science itself.

It is up to, um, by the PCs like us venture builders, to be able to, to know the problems and why they exist, and then to go out there and engage the PIs, to see what, to help them build the technology to solve this problem. So they might, the PIs might, the academics might not really know what the problems are, but the problems are very clearly defined and known by the VCs that's out of our job description.

Okay. Cause we know that we know where the problems lie and then we know how to stop, do not use the song. 

Alvin: I see. So, um, so you recently just joined ESCO about six months ago, gain, tell us a bit about this program that you joined us going home, how it works? 

Akshaya Bansal: Not sure. So I'm in Singapore and in Southeast Asia in general, but you could, the biotech ecosystem is fairly new.

It's still developing. And ESCO ventures is, um, is a very part of [00:07:00] trying to develop that ecosystem. So because of that, we've started this, uh, program of the Morphosis fellowship. So what they do is they will, um, they invite people, but a PhD in life sciences. I do apply for this program where they're trained for six months in different aspects of venture building.

So you have a month long training program where you have industry experts from pharma, from the IP side, from the business side of things, but we extend the entire lifecycle of a product and how bidets are built. And after that, you actually get hands on hands on experience of how to evaluate pitch decks.

You get a lot of pitches from different people coming into the company and we actually evaluate them and we're able to see what works and what doesn't. And so the whole idea of this program is to, to take people from academia and to train them, to evaluate technologies, to start companies. I think in that [00:08:00] sense, it's very valuable.

So they have, um, three to five people with the deacon every six months. And so the whole idea is to contribute to this. I think he persisted in Southeast Asia. 

Alvin: So they usually take in academics with experience in biotech, because like in order to do the due diligence in the first way, you have to have the academic knowledge to evaluate whether this technology makes sense or what is worthwhile.

And so, yeah. Okay. So can you tell us a bit about the life cycle of bringing a product to market in biotech? Because I imagine it will be. A lot longer than the case for software. 

Akshaya Bansal: Of course. So, um, it depends on value starts. If you start from the technology in the lab, it's probably, um, they might, there might be some IP around it there in collaboration with the, um, technology transfer offices and other patent offices within the university itself.

But that IP would be around the [00:09:00] product, which is probably tested in the preclinical stages, maybe in animal models. But it's not close to, not anywhere close to being tested in human beings. So you take this technology, you see how it has to be developed to the point where it is useful for that problem.

And then you do multiple rounds of preclinical testing first, then, um, it requires a lot of investment from the stage onwards, bringing it to phase one trials. And at that point you also want to collaborate with some pharmaceutical companies. So. Um, because they do have the  I suppose, the knowledge to bring products to, to clinical testing.

So from prenatal testing to clinical testing, to determine the product is approved, can take several years. Um, I would say a minimum of four to five years, and you go through your phase one phase two, when these 300 efficient can be really, really high. But if you start off with about a hundred different technologies or products or one.

Indignation, you might end up [00:10:00] with one thing that actually appears all the hurdles and safety as well as advocacy. And once you have the approvals, after going through clinical trials and your product is ready to be marketed. So as you can tell, it's going to be a very long process and it actually depends on what problem you're trying to solve because the size of clinical trials, the number of people be enrolled in clinical trials because it can actually take sometimes to recruit enough patients to.

I've conducted clinical trials. So based on what problem we're trying to solve, what technology you have, uh, you, your product can take a decade or more to come to fruition. Yeah, 

Alvin: so like given the long timelines and the effort needed the average check sizes for biotech investments, also a lot higher on average than comparable software companies.

Like, um, how. Do you have like a rough figure of how much the founders will [00:11:00] keep, like by the end of a seed round in biotech. 

Akshaya Bansal: So I think I could point it out because it's not a software company and it's a very long term play the initiative ticket sizes out very much, but the VCs have taken a substantial amount of risk putting that money in.

Um, it's so. Even though the founders might not have a very high equity when it comes to exits, then those can be huge. So if you look at the, um, couple of acquisitions that took place last year, and most of them have been a few hundred million to over a billion police, even locally in Singapore, you, uh, and you're often, um, and had a deal recently, which was what?

Over a billion dollars. Even though others might have a brief, have a, might have a very large stake in the company. They can end up making a lot of money off it as well. Yeah. But the VC, I think substantial reestablished [00:12:00] safe, they go in the seed round. They will take a nice chunk of the equity. 

Alvin: Yeah, I see.

Okay. Can you tell us a bit about working with the technology transfer officers in the regional universities? But so recently I was listening to another podcast and then the founder there, she was working with the MIT media lab. So she said actually MIT is very, quite liberal pro uh, policies on how they, that people spin off companies.

You have to pay a small fee, but basically. They don't take that much away from the phone. How is it like working with the, let's say like NUS or officers? 

Akshaya Bansal: So, um, I think, um, if you look at, um, Singapore NUS, you haven't, you have ESR and you can, yes. So the TTLs and most of these organizations are very positive cause they are, uh, they do want to get the modules out there.

So working with [00:13:00] them, is it easy? Yup. Opposite things tend to move. Um, but once mutual festival established. So I think, yeah, there is a push towards commercialization and deals are easy to work with. I, um, the kind of agreements you reach of the videos will differ on the kind of technology licensing. So I wouldn't say there's one size fits all.

Um, but yeah, there, there, there are no dailies in when it comes to like getting things done. 

Alvin: Okay, but does he usually walk by, like you have to pay them back a certain fee? Like I say, it's like a hundred, $100,000. When you make this more revenue back, then you paid the TTO back or does it come and it's like a percentage of revenue.

What kind of view structure do they usually come up with? 

Akshaya Bansal: I'm not that familiar with this yet because I haven't personally worked on these kind of deals as of now. [00:14:00] Um, but from what I know, again, it depends on the DMS that you agree with. Uh, usually you would want an exclusive license of the technology because you wouldn't want honorable people licensing symptomology out.

So obviously exclusive licenses will be a bit more expensive than ones that are not, uh, but in terms of revenue sharing, uh, it really depends on case by case basis as far as I know. 

Alvin: I see. Okay. Alright. So, um,

Yeah. So can you tell us about some, um, like recent biotech stocks that you have found in Singapore? W we should have like, w we are doing some, which are doing some interesting things. 

Akshaya Bansal: Oh, sure. So in a bar and lost them, I guess they get her and has, has had quite a few and companies there there's, um, gets a therapeutics.

Does, uh, in your opinion, is mine TCR. Oh, all these are working in hardcore biotech areas. Um, [00:15:00] cause I worked on cocky therapies, uh, which is a form of immunotherapy for cancer. Um, you had line TCR, which is also working on cell therapy and which works on fibrosis. Um, so all of them are homegrown technologies based on the different views on academic work done in our university.

So that's quite, um, exciting, I would say, um, from a. More diagnostic point of view. I would say like the score with nine to 19 situation has been, um, has really shown that the investment and the backtick Siemens, Singapore has feed off that. So many of these companies coming up with a diagnostic kit gets as well as psychological tests, um, for, uh, detection.

And we've had the capacity to scale because of biotechs have been doing these tests. So I think, um, if you want a few examples of the companies that are working in this space that we have to do, who share? 

Alvin: Go ahead. Yeah. So 

Akshaya Bansal: we have, um, a lot of various that came up with, uh, with [00:16:00] the service desk kits, which 

Alvin: will be deployed 

Akshaya Bansal: a, B E R E D U 

Alvin: S V E R D E U S 

Akshaya Bansal: B E R E D U S 

Alvin: Veritas, the a R E D U.

Akshaya Bansal: It's a very, it is, uh, there's also acumen and biologics. All of them came up with, uh, test kits or COVID-19 you also had, we also had Duke NUS coming up with the first logical test, uh, which helped us link to, um, previously unconnected clusters in Singapore and sort of, um, you know, helped us trace back a lot of these cases.

Yeah. There's also, um, S. You can, he was working with Arcturus, which is the U S is bad to compete, developed, and tiny vaccine to Duke NUS has a platform which helps to guide the dosing of vaccines. And I can help accelerate the vaccine development process. So that's been a very good collaboration [00:17:00] and, um, it's quite promising.

So it's already in preventable, uh, studies. Um, what else from an ESCO point of view, um, ESCO ask, which is the CDMO, um, CDO more of the Aaron group has come up with mobile test hoods as well as mobile labs. And they're also working in collaboration with other collaborators in the U S as well as where else in Singapore to develop a vaccine.

So you have multiple vaccine candidates in Singapore. You have universities working on dive, not the diagnosis and testing and have multiple biotechs. It was homegrown technologies working on desk. So we'll see. This has been quite exciting. Okay. 

Alvin: You can go into a bit more detail on the serological tests and how did they help identify the different clusters?

Akshaya Bansal: So, um, as you can tell, this does, he was quite an insidious. So a lot of times people can be isn't dramatic and difficult to [00:18:00] distinguish with being, I see a common cold in some and forbidden in sunrise. So we had these two clusters associated with, um, Um, I think I see in my dinner gathering. And so back when we had a lot less circus than we have now with two unlinked groups of cases, which, um, even the contact reason you put into the link was, and then, um, this group in NUS developed an antibody based test kit.

So how it basically works is that you measure the, you, uh, you can test for antibodies in the blood, uh, against the virus. So even if you recovered, you will still have antibodies against that virus. So they were able to test a bunch of people and they relaxed somebody's body recovered from the virus was actually the link between two different classes.

That was quite exciting. So, I mean, it sounds simple. There's actually, uh, it was done in a very short amount of time developing antibodies against this virus and deploying it to [00:19:00] test people within a few weeks it's unprecedented. So that was pretty, pretty cool. 

Alvin: Oh, interesting. So like is like mass production of these test kits possible, um, is, is already being done is being done right now 

Akshaya Bansal: that mass production is how fancy desks work.

Right. So you have the lack of, of tests and you actually developing those kinds of tests or a COVID as well. 

Alvin: Yeah. Interesting. So in the future, in very near future, we have. Like we can just buy a test kit from a convenience store supermarket and test 

Akshaya Bansal: it at home. Yeah, you could. I mean, there's always, there, there is a caveat though that it might not be a very accurate, so you have to take it with a pinch of salt and you wouldn't want to rely on it to diagnose you, but it, from a surveillance point of view, from a community point of view, I think it'd be very helpful.

Alvin: Uh, we have to be aware of like the false negatives, [00:20:00] the false negatives. These are the most important part of this, rather than like false positives. You want to keep 

Akshaya Bansal: them false positives, still manageable, because you can ask three people. Right. But if it's a false negative, then you have a bunch of people going around.

Think they don't have the virus, but they do. And you're correct. It's something you really have to be careful about. Careful. But yeah, 

Alvin: they can go into a bit more detail on this. The M M R N E a vaccine that is being developed and maybe even the different vaccine solutions that are currently under development right now.

Not 

Akshaya Bansal: sure. So typically how vaccines work as you know, or the oldest versions of vaccines used to be basically inactive forms of the pathogen itself. So you would just take your virus and you would essentially deactivate it and then inject it back into it. The person. So your body would be able to raise an immune response without getting infected.

So, but what is it that causes that immune response, which is actually [00:21:00] exactly the proteins on the virus, which trigger your immune system. So now the newer versions of vaccines hypothesize, and then instead of putting the. Attenuated virus inside of the bus and vital. We just put in those proteins that actually cause the immune response.

And that is the base of all these peptide based vaccines at MIT vaccine. So at Tybee based vaccines, um, basically take fragments of those proteins, which caused that immune response and put it inside your body. And then it causes your immune system to get active. MRED vaccines are a bit more stable than that fight, uh, vaccines.

So they actually supply the MRI, me, which codes for that peptide. So you put in that MRD and it gets taken up by those by your body cells. And then yourself, we'll take that information on the MRN and produce that protein, which is alien to the body and triggers the immune response. And then that will cause your immune system to become active [00:22:00] and will produce antibodies.

Alvin: So basically it's like using the body itself to produce the antibodies against cocaine. So, so have there been any previous vaccines that use the same solution? 

Akshaya Bansal: So am I any vaccines are a fairly new concept and they are, they're been tested for a lot of different diseases, but, um, the best of my knowledge, they're not there yet.

But a lot of the mind advanced data yourself then go trials. So I think one of the lead candidates being developed by Moderna a biotech company in the U S is also, am I right? Am I new Maxine, which is encapsulated in the lipid nanoparticle. And I think it sounds quite promising. And the one we've been developed in a beginning, you asked with

Yep. 

Alvin: So you mentioned that this, the Duke NUS. Is being based on the, of this existing [00:23:00] platform, which allows for more rapid discovery of new vaccine candidates. If I understand correctly, 

Akshaya Bansal: maybe I can talk a bit more about that. So, uh, Duke NUS is part printed. This company called up tourists. So accuracy is an MIT.

Um, there'll be company. They have two different technology platforms. Once called the star of that farm, which is the mod of that farm and other one's called the new owner of that farm too. They're not about a goes, which carry the MIT. And, um, Duke NUS has, uh, um, it has a platform for easing for guiding the dosage procedure, which is based on genetic analysis.

So it helps, uh, in partnership with up tourists. So Arcturus develops a vaccine and using the , they can actually select the dose. Um, doesn't presume a vaccine as well as the candidate or a vaccine to use. So it accelerates the whole process of discovery and, [00:24:00] you know, and bringing it to the clinic it's complimentary.

So you have the vaccine candidate from Arcturus and you have the platform from Duke NUS, which allows you to select which vaccine candidate to choose as well as the dose of the vaccine. 

Alvin: Oh, okay. I see. So basically like Arcturus did they specialize in MRNs vaccines specifically while do NUSD have this actually slim platform, which allows you to try out the different candidates at different dosages and, um, analyze the results from there?

Akshaya Bansal: Yeah. Yeah. So basically you, you can move really fast instead of having to work by trial and error trade-up and dozers and different bats and candidates, you have a scientific way of analyzing what would work best. 

Alvin: I see. So like, I've been, I read a few articles recently about the Kobe Corona virus. So some, some people ask, I don't know if I understand correctly, but people said that the [00:25:00] Krone virus, um, mutates less frequently than regular viruses.

So. I forgot if it's like mutates more frequently or less frequently, but there's something in it that makes it harder to develop vaccines for it. Then like a regular viruses. 

Akshaya Bansal: Um, I mean, I'm not, I'm not a virologist, so I wouldn't be an expert in this field, but from, I read the same thing as well that this virus tends to mutate slower than other viruses.

But, uh, I would think that that would make it, but I'm not sure if that's the reason why it's harder to develop a vaccine against it. But what I can understand is the reason why this is so infectious, because it can, it binds to yourself very strongly, which is why, if it's rid of infectivity is really high.

So it might just be that finding a candidate that stops that process from happening might be a tricky, but I'm not too sure. Cause this is not my [00:26:00] expertise. 

Alvin: Your, your PhD was based on nanoparticles, which is also like very similar. Like, I think you said before, but I would say of this conversation that viruses are basically a bit like a kind of nanoparticle.

Akshaya Bansal: Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin: So, uh, I, I have seen this. I have to go, but there was a researcher, a French researcher who did research on the original HIV virus. And then he claimed that the virus, uh, the Colvin coroner virus has been genetically modified from the original source virus that do include some HIV things. Like, do you, uh, I don't know if you have read that, but do you think like, based on what you've read, so we'll find that, does it make sense that.

This is something genetically modified or it seems to be a natural molecule 

Akshaya Bansal: in [00:27:00] this last speculation, right? Like, I mean, people kind of find the original version of the virus, but I mean, there was a counter article by a bunch of other researchers as well, actually trace the lineage of this virus. And they were the presented some pretty convincing evidence that this is of natural origin and that the kind of changes that happened that caused it to cross the work runs the animals, human beings.

And not something that was done in a lab. So I guess you might have people coming up in body evidence to argue on either side. But I think at this point is just speculation. That's something. Yeah. I would be very sure about that. I think it's, it seems fairly natural. I mean, most, most likely it is a natural origin and it's not that, I mean, viruses have crossover to humans in the past and it's happening more and more frequently primarily because of, um, Erosion of natural habitat.

So it's, it is bound to happen in my opinion. 

Alvin: Yeah. Okay. Then one, [00:28:00] one of the thing I read recently was that this, uh, this wasn't suggested an alternative to developing a vaccine. So, so it's basically, I forgot what, what term he used for this, but it was basically, he was saying that due to the differences in mortality rates, Um, it's probable that the viruses are already mutated and then there are much less lethal streams in some countries and in other countries.

So. You can just identify the less lethal streams and distribute that as like, it's not exactly a vaccination, but it helps to spread immunities. So have you read anything like that? 

Akshaya Bansal: I'm talking about herd immunity, 

Alvin: not like exactly. So it's all like, it's more like an alternative to developing a vaccine.

So just identify the, the less lethal streams of the virus and, and, uh, distributing that. 

Akshaya Bansal: I mean, um, thing is like, because viruses, mutate and kind of, I mean, [00:29:00] introducing a virus into a population can be a double edged sword. I feel like you, you don't know what it's, what it's gonna lead to. So I guess the best thing would be to actually have a vaccine.

And you don't know whether I'm being infected by whichever form of the virus, uh, confers immunity, longterm. So. Yeah, I think it's probably, I would be led by science and more, um, I guess, rational approaches to treatment. And I wouldn't want, I mean, that's just my opinion. So you don't know enough about this virus to say how it's going to react with forwards ending, exposing a population to any form of the virus.

Alvin: I mean, there's quite 

Akshaya Bansal: a bit of responsibility. Yeah. I think we should, we should probably wait for the community confidence with vaccine and he'll then practice social distancing, I think, 

Alvin: but they can be played. It's unlikely. The vaccine can be completed within one [00:30:00] year, even at the most optimistic estimate.

I mean, 

Akshaya Bansal: you, you want to be rigorous in your clinical test things, even if you have lots of candidates out there, I mean, it has to go through the cost and you say for use, which is, I mean, If these technologies themselves are fairly safe, but even then you want to make sure they're rigorous. So, um, to when I'm asking, does eventually come out, it can be deployed at a large scale without next side effects happening.

So I think it just it's worth waiting for a good vaccine, but I agree with you only very quick. Uh, but it's what the week week, and, you know? Yeah. 

Alvin: So I don't know if you have heard of it. Uh, th this guy called Balaji Srinivasan.

So he's, uh, he's, uh, he's the founder of Coinbase, but he also previously did a bio informatics startup. So it was like, I've been following him on Twitter. One thing he says, he, he, he also have a [00:31:00] kid like having a strict lockdown for the time period, then introducing testing and tracing. So basically trying to do something like the Taiwan or South Korea model.

But like, he also has been saying that for a lot of the regulations around testing in the U S like with the FDA approval, the hamper, like rapid development of, uh, of new drugs, then he says like, if, if one, one of his suggestions is that developers of vaccines can approach the public direct leave for volunteers.

Um, I don't know the exact situation, but it was from my understand. There are a lot of regulations behind getting approval for trials and so on. Then if they relaxed that you can possibly get more trials done more quickly do what? Wait, where's your understanding of the trial situation? The clinical [00:32:00] trials.

Akshaya Bansal: So honestly, um, at the FDA, and generally, generally the regulatory bodies have been very, very responsive and come to some COVID-19 and people are fast tracking, uh, vaccine development. In fact, there's been, um, consortium of sorts of several pharmaceuticals that have come together to develop accelerate the pace of vaccine development as well.

So the FDA is fast tracking it, but I. I do think like sort of circumventing the due course of regulatory approvals is a good idea because if some people start doing a Virginia and this sort of, um, child, then if something bad happens, how do you trace it? Right. So all of them people's processes are in place to be able to mitigate, um, side effects from happening.

And if they do happen to trace back as to why they happen. So I feel like. Um,  was trying to fast track, fast track things, but, uh, it should be done with your process in mind. Like, I don't think you should. I mean, [00:33:00] I agree it should be faster, but it shouldn't, uh, Silverman revelation at the end of the day.

If you, I mean, if, if the idea is to give billions of people a vaccine, you can't take chances with the product that you're getting out there. 

Alvin: Yeah. It makes sense. So, um, I would say of that right now. How do you feel about the biotech scene in Singapore and Southeast Asia in general? Is Singapore like still the major hub around this region for the four biotech startups?

Akshaya Bansal: Um, I would say Singapore is  is, is, is getting there. The investment in biotech is, has been quite good. And there's a collaboration between different government bodies, as well as private companies to actually push by the companies out there. So I think it's on the right track. So, uh, as, as far, I mean, I don't know enough about other countries, but from what I can understand, a [00:34:00] Singapore is investing more in the more, uh, is investing more in deep biotech companies, as well as, as opposed to just digital health or health tech.

So if it comes, if you're a biotech, looking to get funding, I think is going upwards. So, yeah, 

Alvin: like what, what are the options for, um, biotech stops? Usually, usually they come out of a lab. It's usually based on a previous PhD work. And then you're trying to bring it to the market or lately, because from what you see, like ESCO is a venture builder, you identify problems.

And then do you solicit. Proposals to the problems or do people come to you with a solution and then you see where they can be applied to a problem, 

Akshaya Bansal: better books. So we do, um, actually let me tell you a bit more about like what Apple's doing, the building, the system as well. So, um, we are a venture builder.

We [00:35:00] don't look at just a million. We don't look at just putting in money. Let's use AB work. We work with companies from the very beginning. So we. Have an idea of where the problems are and you will go out to different universities. It doesn't have to be onions. And I bought the region itself, uh, to be able to identify technologies that can help us solve a problem at the same time.

Um, we, we do have people coming to us, um, with the ideas and they're open to that. Um, in addition to that, um, I suppose also starting a platinum grant, which was basically funding provided to PIs from expo. But you do develop the technologies and commercialize it. So I think it made it from France. We are facilitating the process of bioethics being a more, more complete being built.

So I think, um, part of it is also education and kind of, um, create awareness about what kind of product is needed as well. So the research can also be [00:36:00] directed in that direction, I guess. And besides that, like, you also have. So your school also has a head offices in Boston as well, which is the hub of biotech development.

So having seen both sides and having a foot in Worldcon in what countries we, the company does understand what is needed to build about a company. And we actually do have, um, we've had successes with our portfolio as well. If you have a company called Carmine therapeutics off of local technology, which is not being incubated in Boston and Singapore.

So I guess local technologies, um, then, uh, the science is, uh, is untapped still. And you can, I mean, um, you just need people to help you create a company. I think that people are there who are doing this now.

[00:37:00] Perfect. I couldn't hear you very well. Sorry. 

Alvin: Okay. Yeah. So it's like, going back to this example, you said, uh, Cammie therapeutics coming, coming. So, uh, how, how did they start off? Was it a team that was originally at one of the local universities and then they applied to ESCO or, or the S-corps recruit them to build all this venture 

Akshaya Bansal: actually ESCO reached out to them.

Uh, I mean, And I mean, it wasn't me. This was before my time, but, um, that earlier team and ESCO, and which has now grown, reached out to the city university of Hong Kong to provide this apologies from, but now the, our professors based out of NUS and this technology, they decided that it solves a very big need out of, um, having good delivery vehicle or various pillows.

And, uh, it sold a lot of that. [00:38:00] Problem that exists with current technologies and the label to, um, develop to be the sort of potential of this technology. And so how do I put it? So we invest more, mostly in platforms, um, and not single candidate sort of, uh, portfolios. So this technology is it's basically, um, excess solar bicycle, which, um, okay.

I don't know if I should go into detail about this, but. So to speak. They're naturally, they're not synthetic they're made from the body itself. So you have read that cell switching, but off these vesicles, which can be modified to carry a genetic material. And then you can use that to develop various forms of therapeutics.

So there's that fun potential there. So we, yeah, so the, the team here recognized what smart you can do and they help license that technology develop more IP around it. And then this [00:39:00] company was incorporated, which is now based out of Boston and input. And it's been getting a lot of traction. It's won this golden ticket in the business as well, but they're not gonna give you the nuts and bolts just like procedures.

So, I mean, that's what I still can do for academic labs. Identify the technology, fills a need and then help. 

Alvin: Oh, I see. So, so like you have a bit of like a wider overview of the problems in the industry with a view to commer commercialization. So you're, you're able to better identify like which technologies out there being published, have the potential to be commercialized, and then you go out and reach out to them and try to form some kind of agreement to build the company from there.

Akshaya Bansal: Yeah. And the thing is, uh, it's more, the relationship is based obviously on mutual respect as well. You work very closely with the PI. So instead of just licensed [00:40:00] lessons to Margie and taking over all the control, um, the, the new model, um, by the VCs is to actually build a company with the pies. You work with them, you enact more experiments, you make the technology into a more mature.

And so you work together. So in besides just providing funding to take about a call, what do you also provide support in many ways? Uh, how do you, um, develop the IP around your product, but what should the strategy be? What will make this product more attractive for future funding accounts? So there's a lot of support that can be provided by a VC in the biotech space that wasn't really.

Alvin: So you mentioned the P I T he's currently now a professor in U S uh, so she, she, she's still a professor at NUS then, so she still has this main job as a professor, but, uh, she, she says this thing, [00:41:00] like, what did you bring on additional staff to help her with the day to day? Oh operations. While, while she's doing her main duties as a professor, she, I guess like she still continue on with research in different areas and also teaching.

Akshaya Bansal: Yeah. So these key, so think of it as this being one of the technologies she's working on. And now this is licensed into this company where she, the founder and the company itself hires of people to work on this technology exclusively. So the BI has her own lab, which is running according to. The plans that she has for her academic development and the company is separate, which is licensing that particular technology and developing it for commercialization and then all the hires happening within the company 

Alvin: itself.

Oh, I see. Yeah, they make sense. It makes a lot more sense for why biotech VC stick a larger equity stake, because like most of the risks would be on the VC site, rather [00:42:00] of venture builder rather than the, on the professor. 

Akshaya Bansal: Yeah. I mean, almost all of the risk is taken by new Queensland. You didn't know technology, which is, um, that just exists as IP.

You're taking this licensing, it hire doing the diet, hiring, developing, capable people, follow you around it, getting more investments for investors for future rounds. So the risk is really high and it's born almost exclusively by the PC. 

Alvin: Oh, I see. So that's why also you, uh, you rather go for platform type ideas rather than like single candidate, um, for, for a particular solution.

Because if the platform works, you can apply it across different solutions. While if you have just one solution and it fails, then you lose all the money. 

Akshaya Bansal: Exactly. I mean, you, you have a different VC than book on different models. I honestly, that home place [00:43:00] are more, if these are be risking to some extent, like you said, so if one particular indication does not work out, then it needs to have that bond to fall back on.

If the platform itself is robust, which is where obviously the site is not as versed. And if you have a platform to begin with, then you do your risk, your, your technical risk. Okay. 

Alvin: Yeah. Yeah. So like, I'm not an expert in this field, but like Zaman journ, uh, Ginko, uh, and geomatic also have these relatively famous biotech startups, and they are all like platform based as well.

Akshaya Bansal: Exactly. So even if you look at, um, so a lot of the magic's, uh, then now they're platform, please. So even if you were to look at Moderna, which is an MRD company, it is a platform basically MRD for many, many things. Yeah. Well, 

Alvin: interesting. So, uh, yeah. Anyway, we are almost running out of [00:44:00] time, so we'll just wrap up with a few more questions.

So what what's next for escalate? You're going to, you've just finished a six months then you're going into the next phase of the ESCO program that you're joining them as a full time. Staff now. So what was the next step like in, uh, in view of the current situation? 

Akshaya Bansal: Um, so I mean, it's, it's work as normal.

So I think as we've been lucky enough that we can work from home. Uh, so we'll continue with our, um, talking, been doing, obviously you'd be looking, um, in any, I think my health goes. Spaces one, which will get more attention going forward, in my opinion, primarily because of the massive risk it is, it has exposed the whole corporate situation.

So I think, um, I'm hoping the healthcare space is we'll see more business, [00:45:00] uh, obviously, um, any, I can predict what happened in the future, but for me personally, I'm looking forward to, uh, look in my mind, interesting technologies, helping develop the ecosystem all by itself. And just learning more about how biotech works and yeah.

Alvin: What were some of the major venture builders like S-corps in Singapore? Like I only have you see them as competitors or like complimentary. 

Akshaya Bansal: Yup. I think, I mean, it's, it's still a nascent ecosystems. It's still building up in the more number of people you have, the better, as I know, there, there is stone.

There is, um, which is also working in this space. You also have, um, a lot of different VCs working in the health tech space, not exactly biotech, but you do have others. Um, you have, um, so I mean, besides like, and Esquire, I'm not aware of too many biotech based VCs, there might be more, I might be missing [00:46:00] some, but I do know there is a lot of interest here.

And, um, so it doesn't, it's not only limited to just biotech. You also have the diagnostics, you also have health tech have digital. So, yeah, no, I 

Alvin: have one program called blue Chile, but they focus more on like medical and health care rather than biotech specifically. 

Akshaya Bansal: I think it's more of an accelerator format, my phone.

And you also have the NSG labs, which is yeah. Helping get lab space, which is great. 

Alvin: Yeah. Let I see. So, uh, yeah, I think. Is there anything else that you'd like to add? 

Akshaya Bansal: I don't know. Is there anything that I've missed? Um, 

Alvin: not that I can think of. I think it's quite comprehensive. Like we had, we went over a good overview of the biotech investments and in [00:47:00] Singapore context and also when to call it.

Yeah, I think we hit all the outline points. Okay. 

Akshaya Bansal: I'm not very good at this cause I'm having done this, but 

Alvin: that's okay. 

Akshaya Bansal: Want me repeat 

Alvin: it again? Even like they don't like it. I would just add all this part. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Uh, Oh yeah. So Annie. Interesting stops in the escort portfolio that you think you can mention and talk about what they're doing right now.

Akshaya Bansal: So like I mentioned too, there are a couple of more happening right now, which I mean, you'll probably hear about soon, but I think the most exciting one right now is Carmine. Like I said, so, um, it's a phone based technology and going really well. And I think it's exciting for him only because of. Solves a big [00:48:00] problem that I'm delivering stuff inside of your body.

So right now, um, how gene therapies, I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with gene therapy, but how they work is you have these biases about genetic material to do, to consult types. There are lots of issues with it. And what this technology into do is to help to treat is to not use viruses, to use something which is safer and can carry much larger pieces of information inside it.

So I think that's pretty exciting. 

Alvin: Hmm. Okay. Interesting. So, okay. Let's, let's wrap up with some like quick fire questions. 

Akshaya Bansal: What, 

Alvin: um, what's your favorite business book, or even it can be a non business book. It can be like fictional anything. 

Akshaya Bansal: Um, I think that you just, stagnations what I'm, I've been reading and I think it's been pretty interesting.

Alvin: The age of stagnation. Yeah. What was it about. 

Akshaya Bansal: So it's basically I'm cloud the whole market [00:49:00] situation the last decade or so, and how atypical it is. Uh, the really there's so much money in the system and what means and how like the market is in about music. Yeah. It's been, and at the same time you don't have inflation.

So yeah, since that, it's a very good take on the current situation in the last decade that you've seen. 

Alvin: Okay. Interesting. What, what's one tool. What was some of your favorite tools you're using right now? Like as part of your role at ESCO?

Yeah. Do you use any other tools to coordinate like remote work? Uh, a lot of people have started using notion. Do you use that or just use Google sheets? 

Akshaya Bansal: Um, I use  quite a lot 

Alvin: at table 

Akshaya Bansal: or. Yeah, I think it's been very useful just to keep track of things we're doing. So at dibbles, zoom, Slack, and Slack. I don't, I use [00:50:00] personally, but not for work.

I think  yeah. 

Alvin: What, what do you use it for you? Do you use it like something like a CRM to track the different companies in the portfolio? 

Akshaya Bansal: A bit of everything, honestly, like it helps you just, I mean, um, Helps keep track of what more people are doing in the projects we're working on. Um, and just having a place to just have all this information sorted.

It's this combination of project management last year. Yeah. 

Alvin: Okay. Um, how many hours do you sleep? Every night? 

Akshaya Bansal: Me, I should have been getting good sleep. Seven, six, six or seven hours. 

Alvin: Not too bad, not too bad. Are you exercising at home right now? Did you have like some phones, right. Yeah, I don't 

Akshaya Bansal: think it goes to crazy.

Kevin fever cancer. I do exercise like an hour or two a day. And 

Alvin: what do you, do you just like follow what got videos on YouTube or something? 

Akshaya Bansal: Um, actually like the last month or two, a lot of [00:51:00] people have taken initiative to start with uh, home-based uh, practices. So I do yoga quite a bit. So I have at least three to four people who just started zoom sessions on your event has been really good.

Alvin: Yeah. Wait, you say you've got your events. Is it some site that you're using? 

Akshaya Bansal: So, um, I think one of her ETF companies, um, Pluto started yoga sessions. That was one, another one was a friend of mine. It's called yoga for good. So she organizes, um, yoga sessions twice weekly it's free, but you can donate money to a charitable cause at the end of it, if you feel like it, 

Alvin: but it's free.

Yes, 

Akshaya Bansal: it has been quite good. 

Alvin: Okay. Nice. So, um, what, what's one piece of advice you would give yourself, like before you started this whole journey into, uh, entrepreneurship and 

Akshaya Bansal: startups? Um, I would say like, just keep an open mind. Like when you're meeting new people, being open to new ideas, sometimes you can be very [00:52:00] rigid.

It's just understanding the other person's point of view and just people can learn. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's pretty much it just, people can come learn. Okay. 

Alvin: All right. Um, thanks a lot for your time. I think it's also a very, uh, educational interview for me. I learned quite a bit then like hoping, uh you're you're just starting out your full time role now.

So it was, I hope it all. It goes well for you. I think there's probably a good time for biotech as well. This is going to be a boom time for biotech. 

Akshaya Bansal: Very exciting. For sure. And in Asia, 

Alvin: especially. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks a lot. Yeah. I just stopped recording. 

Akshaya Bansal: Yeah.