0:01

Bush Adventure Therapy, it's a wilderness

0:03

adventure therapy in the US. It's

0:05

a relatively new field. There's

0:07

a thing called the biophilia hypothesis,

0:10

which basically means that as humans,

0:12

we have an innate connection

0:14

to nature. And it's

0:16

actually been proven that when we're

0:19

in nature, it actually changes all

0:21

our physiological responses. So lowers our

0:23

heart rate, rebalances all of our

0:25

body chemicals and things. Richard

0:33

Branson, Michael Phelps,

0:36

Justin Timberlake, James

0:38

Carville. Wait a minute. Where

0:41

are the women? Greta

0:45

Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra

0:48

McDonald, Simone Biles.

0:51

That sounds like a list of highly

0:53

successful titans in a variety of

0:56

industries. They all have ADHD,

0:58

but you don't hear much about that now,

1:00

do you? You know

1:02

what else you don't hear about?

1:04

Are the 43% of people with

1:06

ADHD who are in excellent mental

1:08

health. Why aren't we talking

1:10

about them and what they're doing right? I'm

1:13

your host, Tracy Atsuka, and that's exactly

1:15

what we do here. I'm a lawyer,

1:18

not a doctor, a lifelong student, and

1:20

now the author of my new book,

1:22

ADHD for smart

1:24

ass women. I'm also a

1:26

certified ADHD coach and the

1:28

creator of Your ADHD Brain

1:30

is A-OK, a patented system

1:32

that helps ADHD women just

1:34

like you get unstuck and

1:36

fall in love with their

1:38

brilliant brains. Here

1:40

we embrace our too muchness and

1:43

we focus on our strengths. My

1:45

guests and I credit our ADHD

1:47

for some of our greatest gifts.

1:50

And to those who still think they're

1:52

too much, too impulsive, too scattered,

1:54

too disorganized, I

1:56

say no one ever made a

1:58

difference by being too... little... Hello,

2:05

hello, hello. I'm

2:07

your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so

2:09

much for joining me here for ADHD

2:11

for Smartass Women. Before we

2:13

start, I just want to remind you

2:16

that our brilliant book of the same

2:18

name, ADHD for Smartass Women, is out

2:21

and we are killing it.

2:23

You can find

2:25

it at adhdforsmartwomen.com/book.

2:28

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much

2:30

for all of your efforts in making this happen

2:33

because it would not be happening without

2:35

you. I'm telling you, this is a

2:37

movement. We are taking back our

2:40

healthcare. So let

2:42

me tell you all the exciting news. First,

2:45

we were on CBS Mornings with Sarah

2:47

Gelman, who recommended ADHD for

2:49

Smartass Women as one of

2:52

only five books to help

2:54

you thrive in 2024. So

2:56

Sarah is Amazon Books Editorial

2:58

Director. She's so great. And

3:00

she told me that CBS wouldn't allow the book

3:02

to be put on the table with the other

3:05

books because of the word

3:07

pass. Yeah, she had to

3:09

negotiate to be allowed to say the word

3:11

once so she could actually introduce the book

3:13

in the title. And I couldn't

3:15

love this anymore. It's just so ADHD, isn't

3:18

it? We can never just

3:20

go along. We're always creating a

3:22

challenge because, yeah, we're going against

3:24

the grain, right? We have different

3:26

ideas. So Sarah also shared

3:28

that she has family members with

3:31

ADHD. So neurodiversity and the importance

3:33

of understanding from a neurodiverse point

3:35

of view is really important to

3:37

her. Thank you, thank you, Sarah

3:40

Gelman. We were also selected as

3:42

an Amazon Editor's Pick for Best

3:44

Nonfiction, probably how we got on

3:46

CBS Mornings. And

3:49

we've been number one in

3:51

new releases in seven categories

3:53

from behavioral sciences, attention deficit

3:56

disorders, mental illness, popular psychology,

3:58

pathologies, medical psychology. pathology,

4:00

personal success in business, but

4:02

even better than that, we

4:05

were number 60, 60

4:07

for all books on Amazon on any

4:10

subject, not just new books. And

4:13

we have been number one, not just

4:15

for new releases, but for all books

4:17

in the categories of behavioral sciences, women's

4:20

studies, attention deficit

4:23

disorders, and mental illness. Look,

4:25

there's a lot more on the horizon, which

4:27

I'll be sharing with you over the next

4:29

couple of weeks. But thank

4:31

you so much for all you've done

4:33

to make this happen. Now, if you

4:35

haven't bought the book, please

4:38

do so to keep our momentum going.

4:40

Maybe you have bought the book and

4:42

you've been reading the book and you love

4:45

it. And there are so many other women

4:47

in your life who might be

4:49

able to benefit from the book.

4:51

Would you consider buying a

4:54

copy or two for some of those

4:56

friends? And family members? Look,

4:58

we want to change more women's lives.

5:00

And you've already proved that you

5:02

really help us to do that.

5:04

Right. And I know you want

5:06

to change women's lives as well.

5:09

So you can find the book

5:11

at ADHD for smart women.com/book. And

5:13

if you go there, you'll get all the links wherever you

5:15

want to buy it from or whomever you want to buy

5:17

it from. If you've purchased

5:19

it, please then go to Amazon

5:22

and leave a review. It makes

5:24

a huge difference. And of course, if you

5:26

purchased it from another bookseller, go leave a

5:28

review there, too. I so appreciate

5:31

that. However, even

5:33

if you didn't purchase it from Amazon,

5:35

Amazon is the big review site. So

5:37

please go to Amazon and review the

5:39

book there. It really does make a

5:41

huge difference. Finally, if

5:44

you'd like to attend one of my book

5:46

events, I would love to see you there.

5:48

And you can find out more information by

5:50

going to ADHD for smart women.com

5:53

forward slash Happy Women

5:56

Dinners. I would

5:58

love to meet you in real life. I

6:00

understand there are still some spots left

6:02

for our dinner in Los Angeles in

6:05

February. There may be some spots

6:07

for San Diego. I think San Diego

6:09

is a lunch but I'm not 100% sure

6:12

that they'll still be available by the time this

6:14

airs. Our virtual book

6:16

club, I know there are spots

6:18

left for that. That's going to begin at the

6:20

end of this month, January. I'd love to see

6:22

you there as well. Just

6:25

so you know, I don't make anything for

6:27

participating in these events. Well, I sell a

6:29

book, right? So my motivation

6:31

is to meet you and get

6:34

the word out about our book

6:36

because we are literally

6:38

changing women's lives together one book

6:40

at a time. Now,

6:43

onto the podcast. My purpose, as

6:45

you know, is always to show you who you

6:47

are and then inspire you to be it. And

6:50

then the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege

6:53

of meeting, never met a one

6:55

that wasn't truly brilliant at something, not

6:57

one. So obviously I am

6:59

just delighted to introduce you today

7:02

to Melinda Sheppardson. Melinda

7:05

grew up in Western Australia and

7:07

she's passionate about nature and the

7:09

outdoors. As a child and

7:12

teenager, she was lucky to engage in

7:14

outdoor activities and overseas travel. She

7:17

loved to read travel stories and

7:19

biographies, nurturing dreams of far off

7:21

adventures in exotic places. From

7:23

the age of 18, she lived it trekking

7:26

in the villages of Sumatra, climbing

7:28

volcanoes in Java and Lombok, visiting

7:30

hill tribes and caves in Northern

7:32

Thailand and Vietnam. That's the only

7:34

thing I've done, Melinda, is go

7:36

to the hill tribes in Thailand.

7:39

She's part of your whole list here, I

7:41

think. I'll stop you if I've been

7:43

to one of these other places. She spent

7:46

six months in India. I've not been there

7:48

and I desperately want to go. In

7:51

the remote provinces of Ladakh and

7:53

Zanskar, I hope I didn't massacre

7:55

those. She's also in kayak and

7:57

camp near Vancouver Island. Okay, I've been to

7:59

Vancouver Island. Skeet in the

8:01

Alps, I've been to the Alps but

8:03

I haven't, you there, dived in Malaysia

8:05

and Egypt and cycled in Corsica. Melinda

8:08

is also an occupational therapist.

8:10

She graduated with distinction from

8:12

Curtin University of Technology in

8:14

Perth with a Bachelor of

8:17

Science in Occupational Therapy. In

8:20

1998, she also honed

8:22

in graduate diploma in sustainable

8:25

tourism with a special interest

8:27

in nature-based tourism for people

8:29

with disabilities. In recent

8:31

years, Melinda discovered the Adventure

8:33

Bush Therapy Space and partnered

8:36

with an experienced outdoor education

8:38

specialist to create small group

8:40

programs for children, including autistic

8:43

individuals and those with ADHD,

8:45

anxiety, and intellectual disabilities. Melinda

8:48

and her husband now have three children.

8:50

She loves to sing with her choir,

8:52

mountain bike, surf, and teach Pilates in

8:54

her home studio. I'm sure

8:57

that's in your free time. The

9:01

travel bug has recently been revived.

9:04

So Melinda is currently planning an

9:06

extended family diving and surfing holiday

9:08

in Indonesia next year. Melinda, did

9:10

I get all that right? You

9:12

did. Welcome. I

9:14

think they hear it. Thank you.

9:16

Yeah, there's so much. So you

9:19

know, if you've ever listened to this

9:21

podcast, that where we

9:23

start is always with

9:25

your diagnosis story. So can you tell

9:28

us what happened? Yeah,

9:30

absolutely. I

9:32

think like many people

9:35

on this podcast, I

9:37

was researching

9:40

what my, about

9:42

my son. So my son is

9:45

autistic, he has ADHD and anxiety.

9:47

And I thought I better look

9:49

a bit more into ADHD because

9:52

I knew quite a bit about autism.

9:54

And I just was looking for inattentive

9:56

ADHD podcasts when

9:58

I was driving. and Perth down to

10:00

Margaret River and I

10:03

stumbled across your podcast and you

10:05

were interviewing April Kane

10:07

who's a psychologist just coincidentally

10:09

in Perth. And

10:12

so I was just listening away to that thinking,

10:14

oh yeah, this is good information. And then about

10:17

partway through I just about

10:19

crashed the car and realised that it

10:21

was me and it

10:23

could have been me that you were interviewing and

10:25

it was really this kind

10:28

of... Amazing

10:31

and yeah, I

10:33

just couldn't believe that I'd

10:35

missed that whole section about

10:37

women and ADHD and girls

10:40

and professional women. And

10:42

so after that

10:44

I just binge

10:46

listened to your podcast,

10:49

one after the other. Any waking moment I was in

10:51

the kitchen, the kids were like, mum, why have you

10:53

got headphones on again? And I was listening,

10:56

oh, I've got to learn, I've got to learn. That's

10:58

it. And I sat on

11:00

it for quite a few minutes. And

11:02

then thought maybe I was milking

11:05

it up because I am quite dramatic.

11:08

And another sign of ADHD by

11:10

the way, right? And

11:13

then I went to a GP and

11:15

he's a lovely GP in town.

11:17

And he's quite quirky himself. And

11:19

I was like preparing myself for

11:21

being told, no, you can't have

11:24

ADHD. And he just went, if

11:27

you think you do, you probably do.

11:29

And he just wrote out my referral and

11:31

I was just so thankful. And then a

11:33

few months later, I think

11:36

I had an interview via

11:38

Zoom with a psychiatrist because

11:40

they still weren't seeing people face to face. And

11:43

by the way, this was just last year. Yeah. And

11:47

yeah, just after an hour interview,

11:49

she went absolutely. But

11:52

then so yeah, it was just amazing.

11:55

So I guess what I need to

11:58

ask you is, were you diagnosed with... in

12:00

a type of ADHD? She

12:03

did but

12:06

I've now realized that I'm completely

12:08

the two. Absolutely. Oh

12:10

my gosh. Well, I just listened to

12:12

your story and I'm like, but

12:15

you know what, Melinda, I

12:17

am even starting to question all

12:19

these different types. I think that we're

12:22

all variations on the same type, right?

12:24

And every single person I talk to,

12:26

I don't care if you are a

12:28

woman and you really feel like you

12:30

have, you're so in

12:33

a 10 of ADHD. When I

12:35

watch them, they're constantly moving. You

12:37

know, they're snapping their pen, they're

12:39

bouncing. It's just not

12:41

that outward climbing the walls kind

12:43

of hyperactivity. And maybe they're also

12:46

not super chatty. Yeah.

12:48

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

12:50

Like I just step that stuff in

12:53

the head just like a million miles

12:55

an hour. And another

12:57

time when I kind of started to go,

12:59

oh, maybe this is me. I

13:02

said something to my husband about like,

13:04

don't you have lots

13:06

of noise in your brain? Like don't

13:08

you just have constant chatter and

13:11

stuff? It's just always there and it never stops

13:13

and there's a lot going on. And he was like,

13:16

nope. Nothing.

13:21

So I am curious, what was Melinda

13:23

like as a child? So

13:27

I've been thinking about this a lot over the

13:29

last year. So yeah, diagnosed at 46. So

13:33

I had a lot

13:36

of years to look back on since

13:39

then and reflect on. And actually one

13:41

thing to say was that there was

13:43

a bit of grief as well. Like

13:45

I really did feel

13:47

kind of like, oh, if

13:49

only I'd known as a, mainly as a

13:52

young adult, it

13:54

would have I think changed some

13:57

of my life decisions and directions. So there's

13:59

been a... a bit of unraveling

14:01

with that, which I think

14:03

is probably quite common. As

14:07

a child, I think I

14:09

probably was a bit dreamy. I

14:11

was very imaginative, very in

14:13

my own world. I

14:16

loved Barbies, but

14:19

I think it was more that I just

14:21

loved the imaginary world that I created. I

14:23

was the youngest

14:26

of three, so I had

14:28

two older brothers who were five and six years

14:30

older than me. So I

14:32

was a bit on

14:35

my own. I think

14:40

I was quite shy as a kid,

14:44

but once I warmed up or I was on

14:46

a one-to-one basis, I was very confident,

14:49

but in bigger group situations, quite

14:51

shy. At

14:53

school, I think in

14:55

the very early years, I

14:59

could read. I could read very early. So

15:01

my mum was a teacher and she took me

15:03

to read probably when I

15:05

was four or five. So

15:08

I went to school being able to

15:10

do that. I did fine. Then

15:12

primary school, I probably did quite

15:15

well. I'd win academic prizes

15:17

and stuff like that. You'd

15:20

be how old in primary school or

15:22

in Australia. So five until

15:25

12 at that time. So

15:33

year one to year seven. I was

15:36

in a very tiny school, so

15:38

I think that was really protective too. My

15:42

mum is highly,

15:45

highly organised and almost OCD about

15:47

cleaning and stuff. So I had

15:49

a very structured environment.

15:52

So I think that was

15:54

actually really protective and

15:56

enabled me to just do my thing. I

16:00

do look back and realize that

16:02

I used to read very fast and I

16:04

read lots of books and things but I

16:07

would not actually be able to tell you

16:09

exactly what had happened in those books but I just

16:11

knew that I loved them. And

16:14

that's still the same now so I can read

16:16

very fast but I can't bloody remember what's at

16:20

the beginning of the paragraph but I know that

16:22

it would seem. And

16:26

I could memorize stuff quite

16:29

well. You could. I

16:32

could but not if I just

16:35

heard it. Like I have to be able

16:37

to visually see it. So I've since realized

16:39

that my auditory memory is not

16:41

brilliant and hasn't been all

16:43

the way through. So kind of

16:46

the early years were pretty good. I

16:49

felt quite smart but

16:51

I would bounce from kind of

16:54

friend to friend. So it was almost

16:56

like I got bored so I'd really

16:59

latch on to another best friend and

17:01

then something else would come along

17:03

and then I'd bounce the next thing. So

17:06

yeah a fairly typical pattern.

17:09

You know it's so interesting. You just

17:12

triggered. Not triggered that's the

17:14

wrong word. You just made me realize something.

17:17

I never even thought of

17:20

the difference between auditory memory

17:22

and visual memory. And

17:24

like you well

17:26

I had a fantastic memory until 13.

17:30

Yeah I think me too. And

17:34

now when I think back on it what

17:38

you know so I know that like I can't even

17:40

memorize one I don't even know what

17:42

they call them but like you know there's a

17:45

thing that a chorus in a song. I remember

17:47

like one line of a chorus even if it's

17:49

a song that I absolutely loved. And so now

17:51

I'm wondering based on what you're saying if that's

17:53

related to auditory memory versus if I would have

17:55

seen it in writing over and over again I

17:57

would have certainly remembered it. Yeah,

18:00

I've realized that now. I

18:03

learn something every day. Yeah. It's

18:05

fascinating. I

18:07

think again, I probably started thinking

18:09

about that, listening to your

18:12

podcast because I know you've talked before

18:14

about memorizing songs. I

18:16

was thinking, I'm the same. Like I always

18:18

go, I love that song. Can't remember the

18:20

name. You know, can't

18:22

remember the words. Yeah,

18:25

but I love it. Yeah,

18:28

and now when you hear it

18:30

back, it just triggers all of

18:32

the... The wanting memory, right? I

18:35

remember like where I was and

18:37

what I was wearing. And it's

18:39

in there. It's just locked away

18:41

somewhere, you know, until that kind

18:43

of that key. So five to

18:45

12, no problems at

18:48

all in school. You are crushing it. What

18:50

happens at 13, anything? Or is it the

18:52

same? I

18:54

still did quite well, but

18:56

I think I started to... And

19:01

even when I was younger, the

19:04

teachers or somebody would give instructions,

19:07

but I would never actually hear them.

19:09

And so I've realized that the way I've got

19:11

around that my whole life, even now, is

19:14

I then ask the person next to me, what do we have

19:16

to do? Because that's...

19:19

I'm totally like that. Even

19:22

if... But now you laugh about it. Yeah,

19:24

me too. Even if I'm completely staring at

19:26

them, I'm there. I'm interested,

19:28

but it's just gone. I

19:31

haven't got a clue. I did it on

19:33

my son's school camp last year. And

19:35

the teacher just gave all these instructions and I

19:37

was supposed to be a parent helper. And I

19:39

had to ask the kids what we were meant

19:41

to be doing. Yeah. You

19:44

know, I kind of have this attitude now that

19:47

that's beneath me. You make a

19:49

work for me. What do I need to do?

19:51

Sure. So annoying. Oh,

19:53

it's funny. So, yeah, in

19:55

high school, I looked back on

19:57

my reports. I think in high school... There

20:00

was more angst and I

20:02

was really obsessed with boys

20:04

and social stuff and anything

20:06

that could grab my attention

20:08

did. And I think

20:10

I started to get that really spiky academic

20:13

profile. So the things that I loved,

20:15

I was really good at, the

20:17

things that I just couldn't

20:20

make myself do it. I'm

20:23

very good at cramming at the last

20:25

minute. So I really,

20:28

all exams and tests and

20:30

assignments and everything were always done

20:32

at the last minute under this

20:34

huge amount of pressure and anxiety.

20:37

But that was kind of the only way that I could kick

20:40

myself in here. And

20:42

yeah, when I found these reports, and again, I

20:45

found the reports after I'd been listening

20:47

to your podcast and they

20:49

were just classic. It was, if

20:52

I knew Melinda could apply herself

20:54

more, she seems to be more

20:56

interested in her friends or has

20:59

so much potential just not living

21:01

up to it. And then

21:03

in the ones that I was interested in, I used

21:05

it. So

21:08

it was a pretty typical girl

21:11

with ADHD really. So that kind

21:13

of clinched it for me and I

21:15

went, oh yeah. And then

21:18

I think our final year, so it's year

21:20

12 here. And

21:23

that's where you do all your exams to get

21:25

into university and see. Were you like 17 if

21:27

you can? Yeah,

21:29

I was 17. And

21:33

again, I was more interested in the

21:36

social aspect of life at that point

21:38

in organizing the school ball. And

21:41

all of that was much more interesting. And

21:43

so I didn't probably

21:45

do as well as I could have in my

21:48

final exam, but I got into psychology.

21:52

So I started psychology at

21:54

university in Perth. So I had to move out of

21:56

home, move from a couple of hours

21:59

away. which was all

22:01

very exciting in itself. I remember packing

22:03

up the car and just kind of

22:05

driving out of that driveway, see you

22:08

later, I'm going to the city. That's

22:11

so exciting. But again,

22:14

thinking about some of those

22:16

ADHD things, like I

22:19

turned up on the first day and I locked

22:21

my keys in the car and the university car

22:23

park. I turned

22:25

up to the wrong lecture and was sitting

22:27

there for ages and realised that I'd walked

22:29

in like an hour late and the lecture

22:31

was like, what are you, who are you?

22:34

And then realised I was in the wrong

22:36

one, I'd been looking at the wrong day.

22:38

So it was just all these things that

22:40

just, yeah. And

22:43

it took you how long to figure out, or

22:45

this was in the class I signed up for,

22:47

ages. Right now,

22:49

remember kids in the class like that,

22:51

right? And everybody would be like, what?

22:54

Who are you? Yes. So

22:56

yeah, it sounds like

22:58

you had no social

23:01

problems. That's one

23:03

of your kind of gifts or? Well,

23:06

no, I would say I was

23:09

very good at pretending

23:12

that everything was OK. But

23:15

I think I always felt, unless

23:18

I had somebody who was a very good

23:20

friend, I always felt

23:22

quite on the outer and

23:24

it just didn't quite belong. People

23:27

didn't quite get me. But I

23:29

had, again, it was a very small school

23:31

in the bush, beautiful

23:34

high school. And so I had

23:36

really good friends there. And

23:38

we just recently had a school reunion.

23:40

And I looked around and I realised

23:42

that we're all a bit sparkly.

23:45

Ah. And yeah,

23:48

all these things. That's

23:50

right. Fantastic. So

23:52

it depended who it was with. And then

23:54

in university, again, when I

23:56

did get into occupational therapy, it

23:59

was a small. cohort as well. There's only 80 of

24:01

us and it was really high

24:03

contact hours so it was basically like being

24:05

back at high school and

24:08

everyone was just lovely so we

24:10

all clicked and so that was

24:13

great. But I

24:15

would say when I got into situations

24:18

where I didn't know people or got

24:20

brought into a party situation

24:22

and there maybe weren't

24:24

so many fantastically quirky

24:27

folk, I was really, I really

24:29

felt like what's wrong with me?

24:31

I can't, you know, so there's

24:34

and there's been a again that another

24:37

car crash moment was when I heard

24:39

you talk about RSD. I'd never heard

24:42

that and I just realized that's

24:44

completely ruled my life, absolutely

24:47

and I think

24:50

actually understanding that I now realize that

24:52

a lot of my life decisions have

24:54

been almost based around RSD, some of

24:56

the big ones. Wow. Yeah.

24:59

And so can I ask you,

25:01

is there any trauma other

25:04

than basic ADHD trauma? Not

25:07

as a kid.

25:10

So I'd say through high school

25:13

there was some bullying and stuff

25:15

like that so there's a bit

25:17

of trauma around I think again

25:19

that social dynamics and that

25:21

was probably when we're about 15,

25:24

16 so that was quite, that was really hard

25:27

and I think still carries through

25:29

and I think again I understand

25:31

now with the RSD how

25:34

much of an impact that actually had

25:36

and then probably more trauma

25:38

as I got into adult years and

25:40

my dad died from cancer when I

25:43

was in my mid-20s and then

25:47

yeah various other bits and bobs

25:49

with that and then having

25:53

children and that whole thing there was quite

25:55

a bit of trauma with that as well.

25:58

Oh I'm sure we'll talk about that. Yeah. It's good.

26:02

What has changed since you

26:04

were diagnosed? And I know

26:06

it hasn't been that long, but typically

26:08

a lot changes in that first year.

26:12

Huge. It was massive

26:14

changes. And I don't think I realized how massive

26:16

the changes were until I actually wrote it down.

26:18

And I started to go, oh, well, I did

26:20

this, or I did this. And I was like,

26:22

gee, because. So

26:24

I think, I

26:27

suppose, it

26:29

just kicked me into gear to go,

26:32

hang on. There's a lot

26:34

in here. And I think I really beat myself

26:36

up about I never could stick to

26:38

one thing. So I'd jump from job to

26:41

job, or I'd start OT. And

26:43

then I didn't want to do that anymore. So then

26:45

I went and did a tourism degree. And then I

26:47

went back to OT. And then I didn't want to

26:50

do that. So I went and studied Pilates. This

26:52

whole bouncing around kind of. I

26:55

want to do that. I want to do that.

26:58

You know, and then now I'm like, I

27:00

want to be a doctor. I want to. So

27:02

yeah, just come stand. And you're like, well, how

27:04

old am I? And how many years will it

27:06

take? I've got it. So

27:11

I think then I just went, well, I can't

27:13

actually choose. So let's just try

27:15

doing as much of it all as I

27:17

can. So I basically, I set up my

27:20

own private OT business. Because

27:22

I couldn't handle going back to an organization

27:24

because I get too angry. Right,

27:27

because they're not doing things the way you want them to do

27:30

them. Yeah, or just when

27:32

you have to do needless things that

27:34

just, to me, seemed pointless. And I just,

27:36

I think the older I get and more

27:38

experienced, I get up. I'm like, oh,

27:40

I'm a grumpy old lady sitting in the corner.

27:43

So I thought it best for everyone that I don't

27:45

go back and work for somebody for a while. And

27:48

yeah, and I wanted a new challenge. So I set

27:50

up my own OT business. I've had some beautiful friends

27:52

who have done the same. So they were my mentors. Because

27:54

I was like, there's no way

27:56

I can do the invoicing software,

27:59

the technology. got a clue and

28:01

they just have kind of nursed me

28:03

through it and it's been amazing. And

28:07

then I decided to start

28:09

teaching Pilates again because I loved it.

28:11

So the reason I'd stopped was because

28:14

I had my youngest son, so he's now

28:16

three. So I was kind of on maternity

28:19

leave. And then, yeah,

28:21

so I started teaching a little bit of Pilates

28:23

again and then

28:26

started on the Bush Adventure

28:29

Therapy stuff as well. So I just thought,

28:31

well, I'm going to do all. I'm

28:34

just going to do it. You're going to double.

28:37

But the thing about it though is you're

28:39

doing it, but you've just done such

28:41

a good job of incorporating like your

28:44

love for travel, your love for the

28:46

outdoors with the therapy and that like

28:48

it makes perfect sense. Me?

28:51

Yes. Yes. It does. And

28:57

so I suppose the other things

28:59

that changed were I really relooked

29:01

at how I view exercise and

29:04

I've always been a massive exerciser.

29:06

And I realised the times when

29:08

things really went downhill, well, when

29:10

I wasn't exercising, I just

29:13

had a new baby. And then, you

29:16

know, I always just put it down to, oh, well, I've just had a

29:18

baby. But I actually think one of the

29:20

biggest things was that I couldn't exercise to

29:22

the level that I used to exercise.

29:25

And I used to always exercise as

29:27

a weight loss thing. So for me, it

29:29

was very much, you know, I've got body

29:31

image issues. It's

29:33

about how you look and how you feel, right?

29:35

We don't even focus on that. Yeah.

29:39

And now it's much more, no, I need this for my

29:41

brain. And again, it's from listening to your podcast

29:44

and the one on exercise. And I was

29:46

like, right, I've got to prioritise this. Yeah,

29:48

it's just been a great shift. Okay,

29:52

so Melinda, can you speak to that? Because people

29:54

get so upset at me, you know. Well, you

29:57

just like to exercise. And okay.

30:00

I'll grant a little bit of that, but

30:02

I did not like to exercise first thing in

30:04

the morning before my feet even hit the ground.

30:06

Like that's, you know, I go

30:09

right to my little gym. My

30:12

brain changed and it all of a sudden became

30:14

so easy to do. It was like I would

30:16

get out of bed and like a zombie walking

30:19

to go work out. Did

30:21

you experience that same thing with

30:23

exercise? Yeah, I did. I

30:25

have to say the wheels fell off a

30:27

bit in winter because all the exercise that

30:30

I've been doing is outdoors. So I would

30:32

just get out of bed, get onto my

30:34

bike and go for a mountain bike or

30:36

go to a surfing

30:39

lesson or whatever. So winter, it's

30:41

been a bit hard. So I'm just trying to

30:43

get right back into it again. But the difference

30:46

is huge. Like I really

30:48

just noticed such a difference. When I

30:50

was doing consistently in the morning and

30:53

now probably three times a week, I was

30:55

like, I'll do it first thing in the

30:57

morning and now I've been trying to fit

30:59

it around kids getting to school and blah

31:01

blah. So

31:03

yeah, it really, it was

31:05

just significant and how

31:08

much better I was

31:10

able to focus. It was

31:12

amazing because I haven't taken medication yet. I've

31:17

sneaked a few bits

31:19

from my pharmacy just to

31:21

test it out. But yeah, I haven't just

31:23

got around to making another appointment

31:25

with the psychiatrist. Funny that. Does

31:28

it work? I mean, I suspect that if it really

31:30

worked for you, you would have gotten around to it.

31:32

So is it kind of like, eh,

31:35

I suppose I've only, I just

31:37

took, I think I tried Vyvanse

31:39

and I've tried Ritalin and they

31:41

made me a bit jittery. And

31:44

so I thought, well, you know, it's only

31:46

I've taken it discreetly as a one off.

31:48

So I think I need to give it

31:50

a good shot. The purely is just because

31:52

I haven't had the ability to

31:54

get back. There's so many other things going

31:57

on. I just haven't prioritized that. But it

31:59

did. definitely helped me focus on

32:01

a report. So I'm thinking, yeah, this

32:03

would be good. But again,

32:06

I'm just trying to get sleep back into it.

32:09

Right. Because it's working because yeah, yeah,

32:11

there's been a lot of sleep protection.

32:13

Yeah. Oh my gosh. You're

32:16

amazing. You remind me of my

32:18

son who loves to travel. And

32:20

he's been following this one

32:23

YouTube Instagram travel influencer. He follows several but

32:25

from the time he was like 11, there's

32:27

this guy Drew Binsky, who I guess has

32:29

gone to all the countries in the world.

32:32

And so Drew Binsky started because

32:34

he studied abroad in Prague. And

32:36

so this this year, Marcus

32:38

studied abroad in Prague. And

32:41

he ended up visiting 12 countries,

32:43

I think everybody in

32:45

his building, because

32:47

he just loved to travel so much.

32:50

And I guess he was

32:52

born that way. It sounds like you were born this

32:54

way. What is

32:56

it? Is it purely curiosity

32:58

and interest? Or is

33:00

it also that? I mean,

33:03

I would think that your dopamine would be

33:05

sky high because every day you're going somewhere

33:07

new, you're meeting different people, you're in a

33:09

place that you know, doesn't have the normal

33:11

modern conveniences we're used to. Yeah, you're on

33:13

alert. What is it? Why did you like

33:15

it? Or do you like it so much?

33:19

I think all of that. And I

33:21

think the other thing is, is that so many

33:23

of those treats, all incorporated,

33:26

pretty extreme exercise.

33:29

So, you know, and I look

33:31

back and I think, you

33:34

know, they're all the happiest times kayaking

33:36

for a week, hardcore kayaking,

33:38

yes, being for a week,

33:42

trekking for a month, you know,

33:44

across mountain ranges, that really just

33:48

basically no, I

33:51

only gave like half of them, I

33:53

had to cut it because there were

33:55

so many. And it's interesting, you

33:57

are not what I expected. You

34:00

were so mellow and easygoing

34:02

and I expected that you

34:04

would be like crazy. Because

34:08

of all of the things you

34:10

did. Yeah. It's

34:12

weird. It's that, I suppose it's

34:14

that presenting and trying

34:17

to be quite calm and dab things

34:19

down and keep it all contained. In

34:22

here it's like, whoa! And

34:26

you know what? It's all energy, right? So I

34:29

think the difference between you and me is

34:31

that I am much

34:34

more outward. I am much more hyperactive

34:36

and so the energy is going out

34:38

versus if it's stuck in here you can

34:40

see that it could start creating a lot

34:42

of havoc, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think

34:44

you need to get louder and start screaming and

34:47

yelling and... I think I need

34:49

to. Yeah, yeah. I

34:54

think, just on that, I

34:56

think there's been times when I have

34:58

throughout my life and then maybe somebody's

35:01

cut me down a peg or two.

35:03

And that intense feeling, again probably

35:05

RSD type stuff, was so painful

35:07

that I was like, oop, not

35:10

going to do that again. And

35:13

so I suspect it's quite a learned response.

35:16

Although I was fairly quiet as a

35:18

kid, but I don't know whether that's

35:21

because I was in that kind of household where

35:23

I had quite a

35:25

strong mum and you just

35:27

didn't step out of line. So yeah.

35:31

So they were more authoritarian, do you think,

35:33

as far as these are the rules and...

35:35

My mum wants to shop out or

35:38

whatever that phrase is. Yeah. I'm

35:40

terrible with phrases too, by the way. Or

35:43

you put two of them together and they're totally

35:45

wrong, right? Yeah. would

36:00

be like? Look, we love

36:02

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36:05

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36:07

over the place. ADHD women

36:09

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36:11

much, which of my many

36:13

interests is the one that I should

36:15

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36:18

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36:20

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36:23

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36:25

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36:28

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36:30

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our regular programming. Okay,

37:40

so it's really interesting what you're saying

37:43

is that as

37:45

a child you always felt like there's

37:48

a juxtaposition there for me. As

37:50

a child you always felt like oh you're too much

37:53

but yet you're so calm and peaceful. Were you

37:55

not like that as a child? Were you much

37:57

more... Pretty

38:00

pretty level. Yeah. Pretty

38:02

com pretty level. But.

38:05

I think. quite anxious. Really?

38:07

I think I was quite anxious kid. Sigh.

38:10

Yeah I think I paypal place. I read

38:13

a yeah you know Sqm just China. China.

38:16

Probably China may so that people liked

38:18

me. Say. I worked at. The way to

38:20

do that was to be the good. With. Kids

38:22

and in a think in in teenage

38:24

years I really started to fight back

38:26

and am yeah that's a lot of.

38:29

With. My mom and I stayed.

38:31

Yeah, and did your brothers. Have

38:33

a D H D do they were. they. Talked

38:37

to them about this am. I

38:40

seeing I think again. The.

38:43

Whole family see a D H

38:45

D and as it should be

38:47

cool fencing off the wall in

38:49

Taksim sorry. Definitely

38:52

looking at. My. Whole

38:54

family and extended family there's

38:56

there's definite and tried Sat

38:58

my my dad definitely had

39:00

a D H D. Never

39:03

lately he. Did lose a

39:05

different jobs. His workshop was always at

39:07

it. A mass Sen David

39:09

very three soul and outgoing

39:11

and yeah about always had

39:13

great ideas and was brilliance

39:15

and yet just. Yeah. Definitely.

39:19

And your mother kept every betty and line. Mom

39:21

kept everyone in my. Anna

39:23

Yeah, I think there's some other

39:26

stuff going on there. So that

39:28

that said nothing to say Super

39:30

isn't that Advocates said I don't

39:32

stand season. I love that What

39:34

you've done is you combine your

39:36

love for travel with the outdoors.

39:39

And. Your work right? So I

39:41

know that there are positive effects.

39:44

For. Kids. When. They're exposed to

39:46

nature and adventure. I'd love to know. what

39:49

have you seen? What are you now? Can

39:51

you talk to us about that? Near. And.

39:55

I. Think I am. I probably at.

39:58

The way that that started with. My.

40:01

Brother had written an article on this. This

40:04

and ladies company and she was

40:06

taking out teenagers. The kind of

40:08

season wilderness programs. And I

40:10

remember reading the article last it to my

40:12

brother oh wow I wanna I wanna work

40:15

with this lady and he. Said a weekend.

40:17

She lives in Missouri River. Three.

40:19

Just coincidentally. So we I ended

40:21

up meeting her several times over

40:24

the years and and of either

40:26

maybe the last two years. And

40:28

then we started coming up with well

40:30

why don't we look at the younger

40:32

kids? the seat which retains and that's

40:34

not really much I haven't had a

40:37

huge experience attains but the young that

40:39

kids. And so we came

40:41

up with this lovely five wait program.

40:44

Where. we'd see old on kid skills

40:46

the kind of for half day sessions

40:48

and then com and I in an

40:50

overnight cat and. We. Decided that

40:52

kind of nine year olds to twelve year

40:55

olds. A thirteen year olds would. Be great

40:57

and we kept it really small say

40:59

a kid. And really

41:01

some me it was really trying

41:03

to target dice children that. Might.

41:06

Not. Coke. In mainstream.

41:09

Kind. Big sport or Matt

41:11

besser anxious about being nice.

41:14

Suits seem so. And

41:16

also that adventure element that some may

41:18

cause I know how much I get

41:20

from that and that the excitement of

41:23

doing something new and been in night

41:25

said just the benefits are really was.

41:27

Taking. My own ceilings and going. This

41:30

is what we need to do. And

41:32

then they just happens to be a lotta research.

41:35

Setting. Will lose that as well. But

41:37

it was move from personal experience

41:40

and also knowing that my son

41:42

really benefited. From being in night sir

41:44

and during adventurous. Activities in the ass to

41:46

we'd done that, he was much more regulated.

41:49

So. It was. Doing. That for

41:51

the good but also myself wanting to

41:53

create something that I could get my

41:55

son into. Because. There was nothing around.

41:58

Say. Trying to get him instantly. The

42:00

school holidays that is school holidays can

42:02

be such as tricky time. For

42:04

parents and and cheats. Yeah.

42:06

with some difficulty say.

42:09

That's how we did a and net

42:11

flip frenzy program. So family, friends

42:14

who. Should caving programs

42:16

as well as beautiful paid to

42:18

stand down here. And

42:20

it's just been fantastic. Be the

42:22

same. Back has been amazing We

42:24

The recent program that we did

42:27

was an all girls one. And.

42:30

That was great because we really were

42:32

able to target. Some. Girls he

42:34

was so anxious about. Being.

42:37

With anybody needs doing anything

42:39

new. On. Being.

42:42

Unites us. And.

42:44

A. Just. The side beneficial and nice

42:46

girls said as a system. And

42:49

probably for had. Diagnosed.

42:51

condition of varying things and

42:54

and other for didn't that

42:56

probably had some more anxiety

42:58

related and stuff going on.

43:01

And it was just fantastic that at

43:03

the first when the dishes to building

43:05

and not tying ends with been in

43:08

the bush and even doing some nights

43:10

you based arts and things and in

43:12

the second one. We. Hot sweet

43:14

backpack. For. Kind of four

43:16

kilometers secret, rugged. Luggage.

43:18

Bush stance would be seen them we do

43:21

a beach clean off fun. To

43:23

see the know the stuff that happens along

43:25

the way as he talking or that incidental

43:27

set as kids the walking. So.

43:29

What Is it? They're. Out

43:31

there and nature isn't the fact that

43:33

they're doing something. That silencing that

43:36

panic they're scared of and so

43:38

they're proud of themselves when it's

43:40

over, Is it? Something else?

43:43

Is it all of those things? What is it

43:45

like than what? What is? The research? So.

43:48

There's lots of research says say

43:50

it's. In terms of

43:52

bush adventure therapy, it's a it's

43:54

a wilderness. Adventure. Therapy in the

43:56

Us it's a it's a relatively new

43:58

feals. but There's

44:00

lots of evidence just to show that the

44:03

benefits are there. So I

44:06

think the sense of adventure and

44:08

the achievement and the team building

44:10

that's been cohesive with each

44:12

other under community too. Yeah.

44:16

Yeah. So that's a definite part of

44:18

it. And definitely that dopamine boost when

44:21

you do something exhilarating is so

44:23

good for self-esteem and

44:26

discipline. And then you've

44:28

got all the other things. So

44:30

there's some things, there's a thing

44:32

called the biopiliohypothesis which basically means

44:34

that as humans we have an

44:37

innate connection to nature

44:39

and it's actually been proven that when

44:41

we're in nature it actually changes all our

44:43

physiological responses. So lowers our heart

44:46

rate, rebalances

44:48

all of our kind of body chemicals

44:50

and things. So that's I think

44:53

a huge part of it as well. The

44:55

whole sensory input. So particularly

44:58

for kids who might have

45:00

sensory sensitivities and

45:03

overwhelm, some of

45:05

the noises and things in nature

45:07

are just much more gentle and

45:09

it actually helps just regulate the

45:12

system. So there's a

45:14

big sensory element to it. On

45:17

the other hand for some kids like

45:19

the sensation of being in

45:21

the bush can be too much. So for

45:23

one girl she was like, I just don't

45:26

like the scratchiness of the bushes

45:28

if we have to walk past. I don't

45:30

like the wind on my face. So for

45:32

some kids that might be too much but

45:34

for others it actually really regulates it.

45:36

There's soft sound of rustling in

45:38

the trees. Maybe

45:40

a trickling of water as it goes through

45:42

a cave or a stream. Heaps

45:45

of stress reduction. I

45:48

think, now I'm not

45:50

an expert on this but just in

45:52

terms of there's one

45:54

bit of information I thought

45:56

was really interesting was that it

45:59

actually affects the... default mode network.

46:01

And I know your

46:04

Chappie, what's the absolute

46:06

amazing guy, I've forgotten. Dr. Edward

46:08

Palaual, yeah. Him, he talks about

46:11

the DMX, but it

46:13

actually helps bring

46:15

this calmness. Well,

46:17

if you're regulating the nervous system, that's

46:20

exactly what you're doing, right? You're disengaging

46:22

the default mode network and getting into

46:25

the task positive network. So it makes

46:27

sense. Yeah. And we are a part

46:29

of nature. We're beings.

46:32

Yeah. And it's just, I mean,

46:34

it's so much there, but you

46:36

can just see it when you're

46:38

there with them in nature, just

46:41

the benefits and how excited they

46:43

are, but in a nice way.

46:46

So, I mean, is it so obvious, like

46:48

you compare who they were when they

46:51

walked in and how long do these

46:53

programs normally take? We've

46:55

just been doing a five-week program. And

46:58

so do they go every week

47:00

for how long? Yeah, so

47:03

we were doing every Saturday afternoon for

47:05

three or four hours for four weeks.

47:07

And then we would do an overnight

47:10

camp that kind of went from 10

47:12

o'clock on a Saturday to two o'clock

47:14

on a Sunday. And

47:16

actually the other beautiful thing that

47:18

was really amazing was on a

47:20

Sunday morning for three or four

47:22

hours, we'd have the local personation

47:24

people, it's amazing lady,

47:27

Michelle Hutchins would come and give

47:29

the kid this fantastic kind

47:31

of indigenous culture session. And we'd be

47:33

looking at the bush and bush tucker

47:35

and she'd show us tools and tell

47:37

us stories. And we were

47:40

doing painting and it was just

47:42

amazing. And the kids were just so

47:45

involved. So that

47:47

was another really fantastic element to

47:50

it, just that connection with

47:52

place and bush. And because they've

47:54

been here for 50,000 years, the

47:59

amount of... that they

48:01

have is just huge. Yeah, fascinating.

48:05

I'd love to end on just

48:07

your thoughts

48:10

around ADHD and

48:12

autism and

48:15

the comorbidities and how you have

48:17

discovered and again research shows this

48:19

too that if you

48:22

have purely ADHD the success

48:24

rate for medication is quite

48:26

a bit higher than if you have ADHD

48:29

and autism. So what can

48:31

you tell us about this because it sounds

48:33

like this is an area you're also really

48:35

interested in. Yeah. Your

48:38

son. Yeah, absolutely

48:40

and as well

48:42

as my son I think now I've started to

48:44

to do more

48:46

educational talks on ADHD

48:49

and autism starting to talk a bit more

48:52

to so for instance to his school so

48:54

I've been doing some staff

48:56

education sessions and parent education

48:59

sessions the other day and

49:02

the education assistants as well and

49:05

I've recently been to a

49:07

conference on ADHD, a conference

49:09

on autism and just

49:11

the whole time I was sitting there I was

49:14

just thinking we need to do you know there's

49:17

such good work happening with both of them

49:19

but there's such a high comorbidity

49:22

and it's got it's almost from

49:25

where I'm sitting a very

49:27

unique kind of presentation

49:29

and finger tap in itself.

49:32

Can you tell us about that? A little

49:35

bit. Yeah, so I'm not an expert

49:37

I'm gonna put that down here at

49:39

the moment but I

49:41

suppose it just really seems like there's

49:44

just this bite in the brain so

49:47

so it's coming from from kind of

49:49

the autistic side this need for order

49:51

and certainty

49:54

and difficulty with

49:56

change and needing

49:58

things in a certain way and And then you've

50:00

got the ADHD side, which is like,

50:03

I don't want any of that. So

50:05

it's this constant push-pull. And

50:07

it must be absolutely exhausting. And

50:09

I just see it in my

50:11

son again and again and again.

50:13

And he's probably quite a standard

50:16

case for a boy. And

50:21

I think it's also

50:23

interesting because then you can see maybe

50:27

if somebody has more ADHD traits

50:29

than autistic traits and how that

50:31

might present as compared to maybe

50:33

somebody has a more kind of

50:35

autistic trait coming to the front

50:37

than the ADHD trait. It

50:40

really does present in a different

50:42

way. And yeah, the research

50:44

is showing that for autism

50:46

and ADHD that there's only a

50:48

50% success rate

50:50

with the medication. And we've felt

50:53

that firsthand with Ziggy. So as

50:56

we've been trying over the years,

50:58

different medications, the side effects

51:00

just seemed too much for him. So

51:02

it would just heighten the anxiety too

51:05

much for him. So

51:07

we just haven't been able

51:09

to find medication that helped

51:12

for him. And I've

51:14

heard that quite a bit with some people. And

51:17

just how I think the

51:19

other really interesting aspect of the

51:22

autistic side, and I am wondering

51:24

how it's going to come out

51:26

with ADHD is the pathological demand

51:28

avoidance. I don't know if

51:30

you've heard much about that, but it's

51:33

kind of seen as a trait of

51:35

autistic folk, some autistic folk,

51:38

and it's just that extreme avoidance

51:41

of demands and how

51:43

that can present. So

51:45

in kids, they'll get labeled

51:47

as challenging behaviors and all of this kind

51:49

of stuff. But in actual fact, it's them

51:51

just trying to control their environment. So being

51:54

asked to put your shoes on before

51:56

you go into school can actually

51:58

cause the most... amazing

52:01

meltdown and it's just

52:03

this trying to avoid any

52:06

extra demand and trying to explain

52:08

that to the school is quite

52:10

interesting. Melinda though, do you think

52:12

that's because of hypersensitivities? Part

52:15

of it could be with the sensory

52:17

type stuff but I think sometimes

52:20

it's an anxiety-based response.

52:24

And sometimes it can be like

52:26

the smallest thing that somebody could

52:28

ask them to do can actually

52:30

cause massive reactions

52:34

and people... So

52:36

you might even not be able to ask a

52:38

direct question and even praise

52:40

can be seen as a demand.

52:42

So for instance, from a

52:45

personal perspective, I said to

52:47

my son the other day, oh well

52:49

done, you put Luan's shoes

52:51

on. It's amazing and you got out of the

52:53

car without me having to help you out of

52:55

the car at school because he is so anxious

52:58

about school, it often takes us 20 to

53:00

30 minutes to get out of the car. And

53:03

he did... And he, by the way,

53:05

yeah, powerful on, poor kid.

53:08

And so he said, oh, when you say something like

53:10

that to me, mummy, so I was giving him good

53:12

feedback, he said it just makes me want to do

53:14

something bad and I don't

53:16

want you to say that to me. And

53:19

so it's actually, that is part

53:21

of PDA that even praise is

53:24

too much pressure for them because then they have

53:26

to perform. And so

53:28

you have to rephrase how you're doing it. So

53:30

maybe rather than saying to him, I could say

53:32

to Luan, Luan, your brother just put

53:34

your shoes on. Isn't that awesome? Wow.

53:39

And you know what too, it's

53:41

that honesty thing, right? Can

53:45

I even express this appropriately

53:47

or properly where they know why

53:50

you're saying it. It's

53:52

that next level thinking, right? It's

53:55

not just like another child would

53:57

just be like, oh, I get

53:59

pregnant. these

54:02

kids are just so right that they

54:04

know exactly why you're saying it. I

54:06

mean, it makes sense to

54:08

me. Yeah. And I think

54:11

the other thing is, is with

54:13

some of these complex kiddos and adults,

54:15

you know, it carries on into adulthood.

54:18

You just can't, you

54:21

just have to parent very differently

54:23

to what standard traditional parenting models

54:25

say. So there's a lot

54:27

of, I

54:30

suppose, pressure and societal pressure on

54:32

parents with these kids. Like, oh,

54:35

you're not setting enough boundaries. You're not doing

54:37

the right thing. You're letting them get away

54:39

with murder yet, but you have to shut

54:41

up. You'll be in my shoes and then

54:43

you can talk. You know, when I used

54:45

to be one of those parents, I had

54:47

my daughter, she was perfect. She was so

54:49

easy. She slept through the night at day

54:51

seven. So that's how, right. And

54:54

I remember she was in a Catholic

54:57

school and there were nine

54:59

girls, there were 39 kids in

55:01

the class, nine girls and 30 boys. And

55:04

those boys were a disaster.

55:07

And I remember literally thinking, oh

55:09

my gosh, those parents need to

55:11

get their crap together. Right? It's

55:13

the parents' fault. Like it's the

55:15

discipline or lack thereof. It's lack

55:17

of structure. And then

55:19

I had my son. And I

55:21

remember being exactly where you are where

55:24

just one day it was, it was

55:26

definitely anxiety. He just decided he, and

55:28

I'm sure they could feel that because

55:31

before he was such an incredibly

55:33

confident kid, but things started to

55:35

get more difficult. And I think he didn't

55:37

realize why they were more difficult and why

55:40

could he do things one day and then

55:42

the next day he couldn't. I'm sure they're

55:44

going through all that. Right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

55:46

And he would be hanging on to the,

55:48

we would, you know, get ready to drive

55:50

out. And with him, it was like he

55:52

always had to go to the bathroom, but

55:54

that was anxiety. And so he

55:56

would be hanging on to the door, screaming,

55:58

trying to push the door open as we

56:00

were driving away. And it literally

56:02

came out of left field. You

56:04

know, before that, he was like the happiest kid. He loved to

56:07

go to school. I honestly think

56:09

it was a reaction to the environment.

56:11

And they had all those stupid rules.

56:14

You had to stand in line before morning prayer.

56:16

And if you had to go to the bathroom,

56:18

you could not go into the classroom. And

56:21

so the minute the principal said, you know what,

56:23

you can go into this bathroom, everything

56:26

resolved itself. So there's

56:28

usually a reason. It may not be an

56:30

important reason to us, but

56:32

it is to them. So

56:35

when you asked Ziggy what was

56:38

going on, like when he got mad at you, or

56:40

he was like, I don't want you to praise me.

56:42

If you ask him,

56:44

well, what do you want me to do? Can he

56:46

even talk about it? Or he doesn't know. He would

56:49

just say, I don't know. I don't know. Even

56:51

asking him a question like that will make him

56:54

like, just don't ask me questions. Just don't. So

56:56

it's really tricky

56:58

because you want them to know that you've

57:01

clocked it. Yeah. Yeah.

57:04

So it's tricky. It's something

57:06

I'm going to be delving

57:08

more into this year because I think

57:10

it's definitely going to

57:12

make a big difference. And even how

57:15

I phrase questions now, I've reframed it

57:17

completely. It's changed it a lot. Just

57:19

taking that pressure off him has

57:21

really helped. And you start out with,

57:24

nope, it's structure. And we're going to do

57:26

it this way. And then you realize this

57:28

is not working. Yeah. Yeah. We have many

57:30

broken windows and broken furniture and stuff like

57:33

that. So yeah, no, that doesn't work. And

57:35

I think that's what those judgy parents who've

57:37

never been through this don't understand. You've

57:40

tried all that. You know? Yeah. That

57:42

doesn't work. Yeah. If it was that easy,

57:44

don't you think I'd be doing it? Especially

57:49

being an occupational therapist, you think?

57:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

57:53

yeah, that's been a journey. Quite

57:56

a. And actually, just to say, again, because

57:59

of... the dyslexia

58:01

things that you've talked about, he's

58:04

just got a dyslexia diagnosis as well.

58:08

And it's just that was last week that we

58:10

finally got that. And for him, it's a massive

58:12

relief. Again, he's like,

58:15

oh, I was like, so that's why

58:17

it's really tricky for you to read.

58:19

And he said, yeah, he said, I

58:21

can read words, I can spell words

58:23

on their own. But if I have

58:25

to do eight or nine or more,

58:28

he said, I can't remember what I've written,

58:30

or what I've read before. And it's

58:32

because it's so much effort to just

58:34

even try and spell one word and

58:36

then have to do two and three.

58:39

So yeah, it'll be helpful,

58:41

I think for him. And so we

58:43

go through. Absolutely. I

58:46

just honestly, and I keep saying this,

58:48

and I probably shouldn't, because it's just

58:51

a gut just from talking to hundreds

58:53

and frankly, thousands of women at this

58:55

point, is that it just

58:57

feels like it's all part of one big

59:00

spectrum, right? And you have

59:02

a little bit of this, a little bit of

59:04

that. So everybody's symptoms, you know, are a

59:06

bit different. And so the way they present

59:08

is a bit different. And you're just trying

59:10

to navigate, what do we

59:12

do in that instance, because, like

59:15

with my son, ADHD, he's

59:17

got some visual processing stuff, diagnosed

59:20

with dyslexia, not formally

59:22

diagnosed with autism, but

59:25

he regularly says, I know I'm on

59:27

the spectrum, and so

59:29

many of my family members are, you know,

59:31

yeah, so I know that the

59:33

autism spectrum. So I know that

59:35

there's something there. And he was

59:38

recently tested with Barbara Aerosmith.

59:41

Yes. Oh, you heard me talk about that. Yeah, I did.

59:43

And they were looking at the parts of the brain. And

59:46

it's like, yep, well, this is the part of

59:48

the brain, you know, that is affected by autism.

59:50

And I mean, you

59:52

don't have to get a formal diagnosis, you

59:54

can tell, but it's very, you know, he's

59:58

on the spectrum, you know, there's Not

1:00:00

that much of it. Yeah, because

1:00:02

you just tell the

1:00:04

way he you know He's very social and

1:00:07

he's actually quite good socially But

1:00:09

then there's certain things that just

1:00:11

lead me to believe that Yeah, there's

1:00:13

he's definitely on the spectrum and I you know,

1:00:15

I feel like I'm probably a little bit there,

1:00:18

too Yeah, but

1:00:20

it's just how much of each constellation and

1:00:22

what are the you know, the symptoms and

1:00:24

how does it map out? And I'm

1:00:27

just yammering on here. Okay. No, well,

1:00:29

I was gonna say I keep thinking

1:00:31

it'll be so interesting to see how we

1:00:33

view all these Neurodivergent

1:00:37

kind of presentations in 20 years. I'm sure

1:00:39

it's gonna be different and we're not gonna

1:00:41

have like this one and this one And

1:00:43

this is all these little bit kind of

1:00:45

yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of labels But

1:00:47

yeah And why is it that

1:00:50

so many of these kids actually a majority

1:00:52

of these kids end up with some

1:00:54

sort of learning challenge? Too right. There's

1:00:56

something different in the brain. It's all

1:00:58

part of that same mix. So yeah

1:01:01

Anyway, I want to know What

1:01:04

are the ADHD traits that you

1:01:06

feel are responsible for your success?

1:01:08

I Think

1:01:10

hyper focus is a

1:01:12

good one So when I read when I like

1:01:14

something I get interested in it, I'll just go

1:01:17

for it and I've got the kind of that

1:01:19

supercharged Focus so

1:01:22

that's really helpful Probably

1:01:24

also that creativity and curiosity combined

1:01:27

So then just the wanting to

1:01:29

know and learn about stuff that

1:01:31

I'm interested in. I don't care

1:01:33

about the other stuff Yeah,

1:01:36

but yeah that kind of the

1:01:38

those I think those things

1:01:40

combined are probably and

1:01:43

maybe there's there's that bit of bravery

1:01:46

or that kind of to

1:01:48

just go and go and

1:01:50

do things that maybe some other people might

1:01:53

not want to Yeah So

1:01:57

that would be right like hyperactivity and

1:01:59

impulsivity Like, no fear. But

1:02:02

I look at your list of the places you've

1:02:04

been and the things you've done. And I

1:02:07

don't know many people that have traveled

1:02:10

that much. In fact, I'm trying to think if I

1:02:12

know anybody that's traveled that much. It's kind

1:02:15

of crazy. And I would think that in

1:02:17

your friend group, are you the one who's

1:02:19

traveled the most? Like you've been everywhere? Maybe

1:02:23

the Brits of, you know, I always

1:02:25

would see Kat, the

1:02:27

Sumatras, the Zettas. I would be

1:02:29

seeking out, where can I go? That's

1:02:31

like a bit of a

1:02:33

frontier almost. And I think it was just

1:02:35

trying to get that thrill. But I mean,

1:02:37

there's a fair few of my friends. I

1:02:40

mean, we lived in London for a

1:02:42

long time. So there was a lot of

1:02:45

Europe travel and chomping around there. So yeah,

1:02:47

but possibly, yeah, not that many

1:02:49

have done all the different bits and bobs.

1:02:51

And the thing to say is that for

1:02:55

the last eight years, we've been

1:02:57

completely grounded because our second child

1:02:59

has got severe food allergies. So

1:03:01

we haven't been able to go

1:03:03

on an airplane because it's just

1:03:06

been too scary. Oh my gosh,

1:03:08

peanut allergies or what is it?

1:03:10

No, she can eat peanuts, dairy,

1:03:12

dairy allergy and walnut

1:03:14

almond, Brazil and pecan.

1:03:16

And she was a really sensory kid.

1:03:19

So she'd be the first kid in the world

1:03:21

to have allergies because she'd just pick stuff up

1:03:23

off the ground and put it in her mouth

1:03:25

or lick the kitchen bench or have

1:03:27

a face on somebody's table. So it couldn't take

1:03:29

her on a plane. But I figured she's

1:03:31

not... Has it gotten better and better as she's gotten

1:03:34

older? A little bit. But yeah,

1:03:36

it's still pretty dangerous. So

1:03:40

but she's not licking tables anymore. So

1:03:43

that's why we're thinking maybe next year we

1:03:45

can go. But for somebody who just lived

1:03:48

to travel for the last eight years, I've

1:03:50

kind of been like, yeah,

1:03:52

it's been great. It's been tricky. Well, and

1:03:54

that kind of makes sense. Your

1:03:56

whole life changes, right? You have three kids and

1:03:58

you can't do the thing. that you love

1:04:00

the most. That

1:04:03

would be a little bit of a struggle. Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:06

Yeah. I mean, lucky I live

1:04:08

in a beautiful part of the world where there's lots of

1:04:11

forest and beach and lots of

1:04:13

adventurous stuff to do down here.

1:04:16

So I'm in a good spot. Good.

1:04:19

So Melinda, it was such a pleasure meeting

1:04:21

you. Where can people find you if

1:04:23

they want to know more about you and what you do?

1:04:26

Sure. So I have

1:04:29

a website that I

1:04:31

have to say I only created because I knew

1:04:34

I was coming on here. So I needed a

1:04:36

deadline. That's pretty good to me. Yeah. There's

1:04:39

a few formatting issues that we're going

1:04:41

to sort out. But yeah, I was

1:04:43

pretty happy with it. So it's inmotu.com.au.

1:04:47

I've been meaning to do it for six

1:04:49

years to create something like that anyway. So

1:04:51

we inspired you to get it done. I'm

1:04:54

so proud. Thanks so much. Okay. So

1:04:56

you have to say it again. You have to spell

1:04:58

it since you spent all that time creating it. Okay.

1:05:02

inmotu.com.au. Perfect. And

1:05:08

on there, it's got my contact details for

1:05:10

my email and things like that. And

1:05:13

then there's a Facebook page

1:05:15

as well called InMotu Occupational Therapy.

1:05:17

So it's just got a little

1:05:19

bit of the photos of the

1:05:21

kids' camps and things, which are really

1:05:23

beautiful. They are. Yeah.

1:05:27

That was good. So I just want

1:05:29

to say thank you so much

1:05:31

because without stumbling upon your podcast

1:05:33

that day, I don't think I'd

1:05:35

be at this point right now. So

1:05:39

many thanks. And yeah, every week

1:05:41

I'm like, okay, what's on this week? And I

1:05:43

listen to it in the car. So it's brilliant.

1:05:45

So thank you so much. I love it. Well,

1:05:48

thank you very much for

1:05:50

spending time with us here today. My

1:05:52

pleasure. Thank you. So

1:05:54

if you liked this episode with Melinda, have

1:05:56

I, did I call you Melissa? No.

1:05:59

Okay, good. No,

1:06:02

I'm leaving a review our goal, you

1:06:04

know, it's to change the conversation around

1:06:07

ADHD Helping as many

1:06:09

women as we can learn

1:06:11

how their amazing brains work so

1:06:13

that they too may discover their

1:06:15

strengths and Your reviews

1:06:17

they help as always

1:06:20

you're listening to ADHD for smart-ass women

1:06:22

Come join me over at ADHD for

1:06:24

smart women comm. Oh, yeah, and I

1:06:26

forgot I have to mention in closing

1:06:29

Please go buy my book it is

1:06:31

now out ADHD

1:06:33

for smart women comm Book

1:06:36

and if you go there, you can get all

1:06:38

the bonuses if you buy it

1:06:40

through our website Just go there

1:06:42

and they'll tell you everything you need to do.

1:06:44

So thank you for listening and I'll see you

1:06:47

here next week You've

1:06:50

been listening to the ADHD

1:06:52

for smart-ass women podcast and

1:06:55

your host Tracy as Sucas join us

1:06:57

at ADHD for smart women comm where

1:07:00

you can find more information on my

1:07:02

new book ADHD for

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smart-ass women and my patented your

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ADHD brain is a Ok system

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fall in love with your brilliant

1:07:13

brain