0:12

Hello everybody and

0:12

welcome to adjusted. I am your

0:15

host Greg Hanlon coming at you

0:15

from beautiful Birmingham,

0:18

Alabama, and Berkley industrial

0:18

calm and I'm excited to share

0:23

with you this rebroadcast where

0:23

we talk about Nurse Case

0:27

Management with my good friend

0:27

Molly Kaelin one of the things

0:30

that is so impactful for claims

0:30

is having boots on the ground.

0:35

And having done an adjuster, I

0:35

can remember how much I relied

0:39

on strong Nurse Case Management.

0:39

And so in this episode, we spent

0:44

some time exploring what that

0:44

looks like what the role looks

0:47

like, how that coordinates with

0:47

the adjuster and what really

0:52

makes for an effective Nurse

0:52

Case Management Program. So I

0:56

hope that you'll enjoy this one

0:56

as much as I have. And again,

1:00

just thank Molly for her time

1:00

and spending it with me on this

1:03

episode. Enjoy. Welcome

1:03

everybody to adjusted a workers

1:08

compensation claims podcast. I'm

1:08

your host Greg Hamlin coming at

1:38

you from beautiful Birmingham,

1:38

Alabama and Berkeley industrial

1:48

comp. And with me is my special

1:48

co host for the day. Hello,

2:02

Paloma Duncan.

2:05

I will talk about

2:05

my journey a little bit, but

2:18

I'll just share with you now. So

2:18

my company is MK cm, as Greg

2:21

mentioned, and we're a national

2:21

case manager coming over 500

2:24

case managers across the

2:24

country. And I have a passion

2:27

for what I do. I have a passion

2:27

for a lot of different issues

2:30

that are going on in our

2:30

industry that we'll talk further

2:33

about, and my backgrounds in

2:33

education. So I love these kinds

2:37

of formats and talking to people

2:37

and also learning from others.

2:41

So thanks so much for this

2:41

opportunity, Greg?

2:44

Well, we are

2:44

certainly glad to have you. The

2:46

topic for today is effective

2:46

Nurse Case Management. And so

2:51

that's one of the reasons we

2:51

want to have Molly here and why

2:53

I want to plomo to co host with

2:53

me today because it's a huge

2:57

piece of what we do in workers

2:57

compensation in helping our

3:00

injured workers return to work

3:00

and get back to where they were

3:03

prior to the injury. But Molly,

3:03

the question I always like to

3:06

start with is when did you know

3:06

that workers compensation was

3:11

going to be your colleague you

3:11

jokingly said when I was five I

3:14

knew. So I want to know the

3:14

truth is that is that is that

3:18

when the light bulb moment

3:18

happened, you're like, Yes, this

3:20

is my thing. Oh, yeah, no,

3:21

totally not. And

3:21

I was joking. So what I always

3:24

tell people when I speak across

3:24

the country is nobody graduates

3:27

high school or college and says,

3:27

I'm gonna go into workers comp,

3:30

that is never usually the

3:30

journey, the journey usually is

3:34

very indirectly, you go into one

3:34

area, and you're pulled into

3:37

workers comp, from a variety of

3:37

different areas. So same kind of

3:41

thing for me. I didn't know what

3:41

a case manager is, or was a lot

3:45

of people still don't know what

3:45

case managers are what we do. We

3:48

were kind of like the unsung

3:48

heroes, sometimes of this

3:51

industry. When I was out there

3:51

doing appointments, people would

3:53

stop me and say, Are you a

3:53

pharmaceutical? Rep. Are you an

3:56

attorney? You know, I mean,

3:56

nobody really understands this,

3:59

and that's one of my beefs is

3:59

that I think, really, in nursing

4:02

school, and rehab, case

4:02

management or rehab programs, we

4:06

really need to be talking about

4:06

alternative careers. Whenever I

4:09

see nurses in the hospital

4:09

outpatient, I've always talked

4:12

to them and educating them, because I think a lot of people don't even know what this is.

4:14

But just to kind of back it up.

4:17

For me. My bachelor's was an

4:17

elementary ed. So in another

4:21

lifetime, I was an elementary

4:21

school teacher, and I loved it.

4:24

I was making $18,000 a year with

4:24

a master's degree. And I was

4:27

kind of like, you know, I love

4:27

kids. But I can't survive this

4:31

way. And what happened was, I

4:31

got into counseling, my Master's

4:35

in Counseling. I wanted to be a

4:35

school psychologist, but then I

4:39

realized that school

4:39

psychologists are not really

4:41

doing counseling, they're doing

4:41

a lot of testing, which was not

4:43

what I want. I want more

4:43

clinical peace, right. So then

4:45

what happened was I got a job in

4:45

a psych practice doing

4:49

counseling for injured workers.

4:49

So that was kind of my first

4:52

exposure to this population. And

4:52

I really enjoyed that. And then

4:56

I saw an ad in a paper and

4:56

ironically as a case manager or

5:00

I mean, as a vocational person,

5:00

I always would tell people, you

5:03

never get jobs through the

5:03

paper, you know, it's always

5:05

through talking to people, PS I

5:05

kind of kind of started in this

5:09

career from an ad in the paper.

5:09

Right? Right. So I answered an

5:13

ad in the paper from Infracore

5:13

Inchicore. It was the very first

5:18

case management company was

5:18

owned by Cigna. And they were

5:21

the very first ones to ever come

5:21

up with this career and pay

5:24

people. They were the first ones

5:24

to use computers. I was rocking

5:27

a car, Greg, blue Mercury Topaz

5:27

that they go, Wow. And I thought

5:35

I was like the bomb, I was

5:35

driving through, you know, Ohio,

5:39

where I'm from. And this car by

5:39

gas was paid for. I'm like, this

5:42

is a great gig. I love this. And

5:42

I didn't even know what it was.

5:45

And I just found my passion. I

5:45

love talking to doctors, injured

5:49

workers, adjusters and kind of

5:49

being that middle person. So to

5:53

answer your question, I fell

5:53

into this position, which is

5:56

like what a lot of people do in

5:56

our industry, and I just really

6:00

loved it. And everything just

6:00

kind of grew. In fact, owning a

6:04

company was not even in the

6:04

plan. I had worked for all the

6:07

big companies, I worked for

6:07

Inchicore. Then I worked at core

6:10

bow, and then Gen X. And then I

6:10

started my company, it was never

6:13

a grand design to like have a

6:13

big case management company,

6:16

people would offer me positions,

6:16

ironically, to be a supervisor

6:19

of case managers. And I was

6:19

like, why would I do that case

6:22

managers are just kind of

6:22

strange people. You know, they

6:25

they are just not the easiest

6:25

people sometimes to do. So why

6:27

would I want to supervise them

6:27

PS again, here I am supervising

6:31

500 people. So life takes you

6:31

and very strange twists and

6:36

turns. But I'm just so happy

6:36

that it took me here. It clearly

6:40

wasn't a design at all.

6:41

That's awesome.

6:41

Well, I can totally relate to

6:44

what you were saying about

6:44

education, you know, and in that

6:48

small check, you wanted to help

6:48

people. You know, I, you said

6:52

you love kids. I love kids.

6:52

Obviously, we have six. But I

6:58

started not for profit, too. So

6:58

well. It was a little different

7:01

than education, but not for

7:01

profit fundraising. And I

7:03

realized pretty quickly that

7:03

that wasn't going to work if I

7:05

wanted to have the amount of

7:05

children that I have now. So

7:10

here we are. But I think most

7:10

people fall into this industry

7:15

as well. Paloma, I assume that's

7:15

the same for you.

7:17

Yes, yes, it was

7:17

for sure. It was that job fair.

7:20

And same thing that you

7:20

experienced at Indiana

7:23

University where you were just

7:23

walking around not knowing what

7:25

you were going to do. And then

7:25

there was Liberty Mutual and

7:28

name? Yeah, I started.

7:30

Yeah, I think it's something that is just so common in our industry. But I

7:32

think we need to do a bit of a

7:35

better job. Because especially

7:35

now with what's going on with

7:38

COVID. And everything, we have

7:38

to really work at not just

7:41

attracting the best people in

7:41

our industry. But really

7:44

retaining them is a big issue

7:44

for me as well, too. We can talk

7:49

more about it later.

7:50

So for you, you

7:50

talked a little bit about

7:53

starting your own company, what

7:53

motivated you to start your own

7:57

company? That's obviously a huge

7:57

risk. Scary Thing for lots of

8:01

people, right? I'm sure it's

8:01

also very rewarding in other

8:04

ways. But talk to us a little

8:04

bit about like, how did you

8:07

decide that? Okay, I'm gonna do

8:07

this.

8:10

Yeah. And again,

8:10

it wasn't kind of a design, it

8:12

was just what happened was I

8:12

after working for all the big

8:15

three companies, I decided I

8:15

kind of wanted to get on my own

8:17

for a couple different reasons.

8:17

I wanted to kind of bypass all

8:20

that political layers,

8:20

incentivizing case managers to

8:24

Bill, you know, doing things all

8:24

about billing, you know, I was

8:28

so not about that. It's about

8:28

really just providing a quality

8:30

service, cutting out that

8:30

middleman, and just really doing

8:33

good work. So I was gonna go on

8:33

my own, which I did, and I was

8:36

out of my home office, just me,

8:36

myself and I, and working. And

8:41

then what would happen was is

8:41

companies were like, well, yeah,

8:44

we really like you. Is there

8:44

another version of you in Ohio?

8:49

Or is there another version of

8:49

you in Texas? And what did I do,

8:52

I would Google and connected and

8:52

I grew a network, again, very

8:57

organically, a network of case

8:57

managers. And I decided that I

9:01

wanted to differentiate my

9:01

company from others. And the

9:04

main differentiator is that I

9:04

only use veteran case managers.

9:08

So I went to people who were

9:08

like myself, who have a minimum

9:11

seven to 10 years of experience.

9:11

And actually our average is 20

9:14

years and company, because I

9:14

wanted people had a footprint. I

9:18

feel that it really makes a difference. Listen, I was a green case manager. I made great

9:20

mistakes. My favorite one was I

9:23

complained to a doctor, people

9:23

let me go for about 10 minutes

9:26

about the office manager. Oh,

9:26

she's horrible. She never

9:29

returns my phone call. She never

9:29

returns my emails. Oh, my God,

9:32

man, like went on for 10

9:32

minutes. And who was she? His

9:35

wife? Yeah, well. Insert foot,

9:35

right. Yeah. So I mean, I've

9:43

made all the green mistakes. And

9:43

yes, and it's important. We all

9:46

make mistakes. I still make

9:46

mistakes. But I wanted people

9:48

who were beyond that. I wanted

9:48

people who know what they're

9:50

doing. They have relationships

9:50

because it's really all about

9:53

who you know, in life in

9:53

general. So that's how we get

9:56

good results. We don't keep out

9:56

so So again, it was kind of an

9:59

organ And next thing, I started

9:59

to amass this list of

10:02

experienced case managers, and I

10:02

just kind of grew. So again, it

10:06

wasn't like a purposeful thing,

10:06

it just kind of grew and grew.

10:09

And, and I just love what I do,

10:09

I love working with these case

10:14

managers are very much a

10:14

partner, you know, and I think

10:16

they lose out in other companies

10:16

too, because they usually have

10:18

somebody who's supervising them

10:18

who's never walked the walk or

10:21

talk the talk. And I've been

10:21

there, I've been in an office

10:25

with a doctor who was grouchy

10:25

and was just nasty, you know,

10:28

I've been with a belligerent,

10:28

you know, injured worker, so I

10:32

get it, I get how hard our job

10:32

is, it's really hard job. It's

10:35

all about boundaries, you know,

10:35

we get pulled in lots of

10:38

different directions. So that

10:38

fuels me every day and making a

10:43

difference in people's lives.

10:43

And I think we forget that, that

10:46

we really do make a difference.

10:46

People are at a very vulnerable

10:49

point when we're working with

10:49

them, right? I mean, they're

10:51

dealing with injuries, they're

10:51

dealing with their their lives,

10:53

economic loss, pain, you know,

10:53

not understanding the medical

10:57

system, you know, not understanding what the doctor just said to them, you know, so

10:59

our job is to really break all

11:03

that down and educate them and

11:03

really help them through. So

11:06

it's been a real gratifying

11:06

journey. That's for sure.

11:08

That's awesome. So

11:08

one of the things that I wanted

11:12

to know a little bit more about

11:12

was, you know, you've been doing

11:16

this for a long time, you talked about the importance of experience and having

11:18

experienced nurses, maybe for

11:22

those who haven't had as much

11:22

exposure to what a case manager

11:27

or nurse case manager can do.

11:27

Talk to us a little bit about

11:30

what their role is, if you're

11:30

having an onsite nurse case

11:33

manager in a workers

11:33

compensation injury?

11:36

Yeah, absolutely.

11:36

I do. One of my talks is case

11:39

management one on one again,

11:39

because a lot of people don't

11:41

know, I have whole slide about

11:41

what we can do what we can't do.

11:44

And so the way I describe it

11:44

initially, is remember those

11:46

Venn diagrams we had in school,

11:46

you know, we're I use the Venn

11:50

diagrams to kind of describe all

11:50

the different players on the

11:52

team members, right? You've got

11:52

gestures, you've got risk

11:55

managers, you've got providers,

11:55

you've got attorneys, you know,

11:59

all those people. And then in

11:59

the middle of the wheel, you've

12:01

got the injured worker, they're

12:01

the most crucial team member.

12:05

And lots of times we lose sight

12:05

of that, you know, it's so

12:09

important that you have empathy

12:09

that you have trust, that you

12:13

have that education piece, so

12:13

they feel empowered. So our job

12:16

is a case manager, if you still

12:16

visualize that circle that I was

12:19

talking about, we are kind of

12:19

like the person that intersects

12:22

between all those different team

12:22

members, between the injured

12:25

worker, the doctor, you know,

12:25

the providers, the physical

12:27

therapists, the MRI, you know,

12:27

all those people, the attorneys,

12:32

everybody who's on that team,

12:32

the risk manager, we are the

12:36

connector, because many times

12:36

you guys know, being in the

12:39

business, the right hand is not

12:39

the left hands doing. You see

12:43

that a lot with the physicians,

12:43

especially if it's multiple

12:46

providers, you know, you got a

12:46

physiatrist you gotta pay

12:48

management, you got an ortho?

12:48

Well, these doctors, it still

12:51

boggles my mind, they don't

12:51

communicate, they don't

12:54

communicate on any level, they

12:54

don't communicate on medication,

12:57

they don't communicate on

12:57

treatment, therapies, all that

13:00

stuff, DME, you know, so our job

13:00

is to make sure that everybody's

13:04

aware of what's going on. And

13:04

that the case is moving in a

13:07

positive direction, that the

13:07

injured worker is getting what

13:10

they need, that they're, you

13:10

know, getting the best care,

13:13

that we're also trying to

13:13

contain the client, not letting

13:17

it bleed out unnecessarily to

13:17

providers as a need to go to,

13:21

for example, doctors tend to

13:21

always, you know, refer out your

13:24

your ortho, I tell them, you

13:24

know, they want to cut you, but

13:27

they don't want to cut you. And

13:27

if I don't want to cut you, I'm

13:29

gonna send you to pain

13:29

management. Well, there might be

13:32

other things to do, why go to

13:32

these steps. So our job is case

13:35

managers to present alternatives

13:35

respectfully to the physicians,

13:39

and to update everybody, all the

13:39

stakeholders about what's going

13:42

on, to help move the claim to a

13:42

positive resolution. That's my

13:46

definition.

13:47

That's fantastic.

13:47

So Paloma, I know you've had a

13:50

lot of experience when it comes

13:50

to handling difficult claims.

13:54

Talk to us a little bit about

13:54

how nurses have helped you and

13:58

what you're doing on your more

13:58

difficult claims.

14:01

Sure. So it's

14:01

always nice to have eyes and

14:03

ears on somebody that you speak

14:03

to you read the medical reports,

14:07

but you don't really pick up on

14:07

those nonverbal mannerisms and

14:12

things that you might see. So

14:12

that information is always

14:14

crucial for us, when we're

14:14

seeing somebody that's not

14:17

recovering, maybe they are still

14:17

smoking and they you know,

14:21

record that they're not smoking,

14:21

those simple things that they

14:24

can pick up on that we can't we

14:24

don't see them. That is crucial

14:28

for us, along with kind of just

14:28

getting that judgment feeling of

14:33

you know, I have concerns that

14:33

this, you know, maybe a

14:36

malingering patient or you know,

14:36

I'm really concerned with the

14:39

treatment plan here. The doctors

14:39

not looking at what I'm telling

14:42

him is concerning maybe we need

14:42

to redirect care. So those

14:46

situations I feel are very

14:46

helpful to have an an on site

14:50

nurse attend the appointments

14:50

and like you said, educate the

14:53

patients and give them

14:53

reassurance on what they're to

14:56

be doing once they leave the

14:56

doctor's office, right because a

14:58

lot of times you The doctor just

14:58

writes the note and doesn't

15:01

maybe verbalize, you should not

15:01

be doing this, that or the

15:04

other. And this is what you need

15:04

to do. But the instructions and

15:08

language barriers, I'm bilingual

15:08

in Spanish. And so I know you

15:11

have a lot of bilingual nurses,

15:11

that is amazing. You can see a

15:15

huge impact on any file that has

15:15

a bilingual nurse, because the

15:19

communication barrier can be

15:19

huge, not only language,

15:22

education, culture, all of those

15:22

things make a huge difference if

15:26

you understand where they're

15:26

coming from and what kind of

15:28

guidance they might need. So

15:30

I can piggyback

15:30

to Greg I mean, everything a

15:32

plumber said, I agree there's different types of case management for those of the

15:34

people are listening might not be as sophisticated. No, there's

15:36

telephonic case management,

15:39

where we're just kind of coordinating everything on the case telephonically. And then

15:41

there's field that Paloma

15:43

mentioned, obviously, she's

15:43

handling catastrophic cases, do

15:46

case management usually starts

15:46

very early on, we get a call.

15:50

And what we're doing is like, as

15:50

soon as we hang up the phone,

15:52

we're calling the hospitals,

15:52

either even their teeth of going

15:55

into surgery, I'm very

15:55

transparent, and how we operate

15:57

our business. So we're all about

15:57

cost containment and ROI for our

16:00

customers. So if someone's going

16:00

into surgery, right, pull them

16:03

out, you're not going to want to stay out of the hospital, just hanging out in the hallway.

16:05

Medical for you, right and get

16:09

you information. By the way, we

16:09

still get medicals, but 80% of

16:12

the time, we still are able to

16:12

get medicals on the phone still

16:14

boggles my mind. But we do. And

16:14

then we go out. And we're you

16:18

know, that's where it's a really

16:18

key role. And we take it very

16:21

seriously because we represent

16:21

the employer and the insurance

16:25

company to a family who is

16:25

dealing with a catastrophic

16:28

situation. Understand the

16:28

medical, they don't understand

16:31

what's going to happen to their

16:31

lives, their loved one is maybe

16:34

they're on event or who knows

16:34

and ICU. And we come in there

16:38

physically to do a couple

16:38

things, one to kind of review

16:40

the medicals and send you guys

16:40

over medical as we can to to

16:43

kind of triage the case with the

16:43

providers and see how long this

16:46

is workers going to be there for

16:46

diagnosis prognosis, are they

16:50

going to rehab? Are they going

16:50

home? Do we need dem ease and

16:53

three, which is really key,

16:53

which Paula mentioned was

16:55

emotional support. Ya know,

16:55

people care about you, you're in

16:59

a system that you might not

16:59

understand. Let us help you

17:02

navigate through that system.

17:02

And we're going to be with you

17:05

through this process to make

17:05

sure you get the best care and

17:08

coordinate everything for you.

17:08

And that's really, really

17:12

important because that trust

17:12

building that I talked about

17:14

starts right then because these

17:14

people are mistrusting, they

17:18

don't understand what's going on. They're confused, they're afraid. And we got to come in

17:20

there and kind of help that. So

17:22

catastrophic case management,

17:22

again, once we're out of the

17:24

hospital, that's a really

17:24

different kind of a skill. I

17:28

always call it like the plate

17:28

spinners. You know, you gotta

17:33

Yeah, it's a catastrophic case

17:33

manager. It's a whole different

17:36

level than regular case manager,

17:36

because you have got to be

17:39

dealing with like 10 spinning

17:39

plates at the same time, because

17:41

you're dealing with vendors for

17:41

tmes, and home modifications,

17:44

and physiatrist orthopedist, and

17:44

neurosurgeons and you're

17:48

coordinating all that care,

17:48

transportation, home health. So

17:52

that's a whole different thing.

17:52

But like you mentioned, for the

17:55

few case management, eyes and

17:55

ears, right, we see how the

17:57

inter Walker walks in, we see

17:57

how they walk out, we see when

18:01

the doctor bends over, the

18:01

doctor is rolling his eyes.

18:03

That's really huge information.

18:03

That's not going to be an email,

18:06

you know, that's a

18:08

it's not going to be in the medical report.

18:10

Yeah, no way. I

18:10

rolled my eyes when Johnny bent

18:12

over Oh, my God, not this depo.

18:12

Here we come, you know. But also

18:18

looking at the job. You know,

18:18

we'd love to get job

18:20

descriptions and review those

18:20

with the doctors and injured

18:22

workers. That's key making each

18:22

Yep. Well, I

18:26

can't tell you how

18:26

many times I've had an injured

18:28

worker when I was an adjuster.

18:28

They go to the doctor's

18:30

appointment. If there's nobody there, they'd say, Well, is there modified duty? And that

18:32

guy would say no, there's no modified duty. But there was

18:34

right? No one ever was there to

18:38

say, Well, wait a minute, what

18:38

are his restrictions? And what

18:40

can he do? And can we work with

18:40

the employer and let me help

18:43

coordinate that so that he's not

18:43

just sitting on the sidelines?

18:47

And I think that's a huge thing

18:47

that nurses can do that adds so

18:51

much value? Absolutely. The

18:51

other thing I've seen is

18:54

sometimes the doctors, they are

18:54

so busy, they have so many

18:58

things going on, they're going

18:58

from thing to thing to thing. So

19:01

Paloma might write the doctor a

19:01

letter, but he might not look at

19:04

it for a week. Oh, my God, no,

19:04

do weeks, you know, and they

19:08

might be really good questions

19:08

or information we want him to

19:11

discuss. But we don't have a way

19:11

to have that dialogue. Because

19:15

if we call we're not going to get them on the phone most of the time. There's a couple of

19:17

doctors who will do that. But

19:19

most do not. But sometimes the

19:19

nurses can have those

19:22

discussions.

19:23

Yeah. And you just brought to a really good point that was going to read my

19:24

mind. So one of the key things

19:27

that we do as case managers and

19:27

I think it's the most

19:30

efficacious is Doctor

19:30

conferences, one on one sitting

19:34

across the table from a doctor

19:34

with those questions that maybe

19:38

Paloma had with the injured

19:38

worker not being there. And we

19:41

have the undivided attention of

19:41

the doctor. And we could bring

19:44

old medicals or whatever and sit

19:44

across the table from him and

19:47

have him respond and pay

19:47

attention to what we're doing.

19:51

And again, that experience comes

19:51

into play. I'm an experienced

19:55

case manager. I can pull Dr.

19:55

Smith aside say Dr. Smith,

19:58

really, don't you think it's

19:58

about time then, you know, the

20:00

Johnny kind of go back to work.

20:00

So you can have those kinds of

20:03

conversations informally, that

20:03

really impact a case. But if you

20:07

weren't experienced and had a

20:07

relationship with that, doctor,

20:09

there's no way that you could do that.

20:11

That's an excellent

20:11

point. So Paloma, maybe I want

20:15

to ask you this and then have

20:15

maybe Molly chime in, out of

20:18

curiosity. So when you've had

20:18

nurses on files, you've been

20:22

doing this for 15 years plus

20:22

something like that. So when

20:25

you've had nurses on files,

20:25

there's good ones, and there's

20:27

great ones, what's the

20:27

difference for you? When you

20:30

say, Well, that was a good

20:30

nurse? Or that nurse was

20:33

amazing? What's the difference?

20:35

Yeah, relationships are everything right? I feel like once you

20:37

establish that relationship and

20:40

trust with an injured worker,

20:40

you see things move smoothly,

20:44

and resolve and have a good

20:44

result because they trust that

20:47

you are guiding them in the

20:47

right direction. So I think just

20:50

establishing those good

20:50

relationships early on, and

20:52

communication are definitely two

20:52

of the big things that I've

20:56

noticed with nurse case

20:56

managers, and then coming to me

20:59

and making sure that what their

20:59

plan is, is what I'm thinking as

21:02

well. So that we work together

21:02

and establish a goal that

21:05

results in a return to work, you

21:05

know, maximum improvement, those

21:09

goals that we have, and in the

21:09

timeframes that we're looking

21:12

at. And if they're not there,

21:12

then addressing the setbacks

21:14

together, I think is very

21:14

important for an amazing nurse

21:18

case manager or, you know,

21:18

having those conversations like

21:20

Molly had mentioned with the

21:20

doctor having those conferences,

21:23

saying, you know, maybe we need

21:23

to check some blood work or have

21:26

some of this done that he's that

21:26

healing, you know, aren't you

21:28

concerned that there might be

21:28

something else going on here?

21:31

Those those things that they can

21:31

pick up on and communicate with

21:34

the doctor, effectively and with

21:34

myself, I find to be very

21:38

amazing nurse case managers that

21:38

do that.

21:41

I'll jump in.

21:41

Yeah, go for it. You know, I'm

21:43

shy. I'm writing notes furiously

21:43

as well as talking. So being

21:46

proactive versus reactive. II,

21:46

anticipating things like me, as

21:52

a case manager, I would call

21:52

that adjuster and employer after

21:55

document said, Hey, Dr. Smith's

21:55

talking about pain management,

21:58

if things don't get better,

21:58

let's see what we can do about

22:01

this. So looking ahead, thinking

22:01

outside of the box, I had a case

22:06

once were there keeping somebody

22:06

in the hospital over the weekend

22:08

for a knee Walker, because they

22:08

couldn't find a knee Walker,

22:11

what did I do? I googled one 800

22:11

Knee Walker found somebody got

22:15

the knee Walker got him out

22:15

again, thinking outside the box

22:18

with the approval of the

22:18

employer. Next thing we always

22:21

do a lot in our company. I think

22:21

we've lost the art of phone

22:24

calling in our industry and a

22:24

lot of industries. Emails are

22:27

great. Gotta love. However,

22:27

nothing makes me crazier, right?

22:30

Because it's encrypted emails going back and forth about the same issue a, b, we everything's

22:32

discoverable. So if there's

22:37

something sensitive, it should

22:37

not be in an email. So we're,

22:39

we're big believers in round

22:39

tabling cases, you know, we'll

22:43

suggest it or a casserole

22:43

suggested, hey, you know what,

22:45

we think we need to get

22:45

everybody on the call for five

22:48

minutes, 10 minutes, and really

22:48

kind of look at this case, come

22:52

up with a plan, and then go

22:52

forward. So that

22:55

I love that Molly.

22:55

And I say I just had one come

22:59

across my desk this morning,

22:59

where there was an ad, this is

23:02

not on the nurse case manager

23:02

side. But there was an agent and

23:05

insured that had been sending

23:05

emails back and forth with an

23:07

adjuster. And then they felt

23:07

like they weren't getting

23:10

answers. And I finally just

23:10

talked to the adjusters that,

23:12

hey, we just need to make a phone call pick up the phone. Let's have a phone call here.

23:14

Because I think this can all get

23:17

sorted out in five minutes. If

23:17

we just talk to each other 100%

23:20

Do you think this is going to be

23:20

a new challenge? I do think this

23:23

isn't going away. Because I look

23:23

at my kids and the most recent

23:27

college hires, and they do this

23:27

I can't people can't stop if

23:30

you're just on their phones

23:30

texting all the time. They do

23:33

not call their friends they text

23:33

their friends. Yeah. And so are

23:38

they snap their friends or whatever the word, you know, whatever the the cool kids are

23:40

doing now, but it's not it's not

23:42

colleague. And so I remember

23:42

when I onboard a new adjuster,

23:47

it's probably been four or five

23:47

years ago, they had sent three

23:50

emails sent to faxes, and it had

23:50

been a month and they hadn't

23:53

gotten an answer. And I said,

23:53

did you have you? Have you tried

23:55

calling? And they're like, Well,

23:55

no, it makes me insane. Yeah.

23:59

But they're kind of petrified to

23:59

pick up the phone. So that's

24:02

something that I've had to work

24:02

on with with some of them. And

24:04

they come with different skill

24:04

sets that are wonderful in other

24:07

ways. But that is a spot that

24:07

has changed. And I think you're

24:10

right, especially when you're

24:10

talking about doctors who may be

24:13

in their 50s and 60s. They're

24:13

not doing that. Yep.

24:17

Well, I we task

24:17

our case managers when they

24:19

first get a case, not just to

24:19

reach out to all the

24:22

stakeholders by email, but

24:22

they've got to do it by phone.

24:24

And I hold them to that, you

24:24

know, did you call Susie Did you

24:27

call you know, because again,

24:27

emails are great, but you know,

24:30

maybe that adjuster found out a

24:30

kernel of information on this

24:33

injured worker that they don't

24:33

want to put in writing, but it's

24:36

important for us to know as case

24:36

managers so Oh, totally agree

24:39

with you. I totally agree. And then the other thing is I was gonna mention too is good media

24:41

update. That's what I got

24:44

distinguishes a good case here.

24:44

Like look, you guys can all read

24:47

doctor's notes. We can all read

24:47

plenty notes. We do not need to

24:50

regurgitate information for you

24:50

guys, right? You want to know

24:54

subjective objective barriers

24:54

return to work, you know, MMI

24:58

and we work really hard our

24:58

company And we've come up with a

25:01

template that we're starting to

25:01

roll out about standardizing

25:04

updates, because God bless all

25:04

my case managers, they all write

25:07

these long. I'm sure you've seen

25:07

the right paragraph, and I look

25:11

at them and already my eyes

25:11

start to glaze over, like, Oh,

25:13

God, how can I read this? Give

25:13

me the meat, potatoes, you know

25:17

what's going on? So we're

25:17

constantly talking to our

25:20

nurses, but they're in our case

25:20

managers, but they're so used to

25:22

charting and hospitals, right,

25:22

and they can just write whatever

25:25

and a lot of times, so we're

25:25

trying to streamline that

25:28

information. And then also

25:28

responsiveness is key, like you

25:32

said, communicating. If you guys

25:32

ask a question, we give them 24

25:35

hours to answer they got an

25:35

appointment, they have 24 hours

25:38

to update. You know, if we treat

25:38

telephonic just like field, I

25:42

don't care if you're handling how telephonically they went to a doctor's appointment within 24

25:44

hours, you call that doctor,

25:47

that injured worker you get as

25:47

much as you can. So I have never

25:50

understood how this should just

25:50

be normal. You know, I mean, I

25:53

don't understand there's a lot of companies out there that's like, oh, yeah, you know, a

25:55

nurse didn't show up. What do

25:58

you mean, a nurse didn't show up? You know,

25:59

that's a huge deal.

25:59

And it's yeah, it can be a huge

26:02

deal if you're counting on it,

26:02

if we're counting on it, because

26:04

you know, we can't be there. So

26:04

when you think about some of the

26:08

challenges that you have in

26:08

Nurse Case, management,

26:11

obviously, there's probably some

26:11

unique ones involved. I can

26:15

think of a few. But I figure you

26:15

have you have your list as well.

26:19

I know that one challenge. I

26:19

mean, this just comes to the top

26:21

of my mind is epic. There's so

26:21

many states and every state has

26:24

their own rules on what you can

26:24

and can't do. And I imagine

26:27

that's something that you got to

26:27

juggle on your end, what are

26:29

some of the other things that you see?

26:31

Yeah, and that's

26:31

a challenge, because rulings and

26:33

laws are always changing, you

26:33

know, so we always try to stay

26:36

on top of that, that's

26:36

definitely challenging

26:38

boundaries is an issue. It's

26:38

very hard as a case manager, and

26:42

I kind of alluded to it before,

26:42

we feel like sometimes we're

26:44

pushed and pulled in lots of

26:44

different directions, octagon

26:47

about that circle, all the

26:47

different stakeholders, well,

26:51

they might not all have the same

26:51

goal, you know, the injured

26:53

workers goal might be to stay out of work, but nobody else's goal is to get them back, or

26:55

vice versa. Our job is to kind

26:59

of do what's ethically correct

26:59

for everybody, but also kind of

27:03

like manage the claim. So we're

27:03

getting good outcomes. So lots

27:07

of times you feel you're being

27:07

pushed and pulled and our case

27:09

managers sometimes because they

27:09

especially with the cat cases

27:12

that Paloma handles, you get

27:12

very connected to these injured

27:15

workers and their families. So

27:15

you have to walk a fine line and

27:20

not become overly connected,

27:20

that you have to maintain that

27:23

objectivity. Because we at the

27:23

end of the day, we're

27:26

professionals, we have a job to

27:26

do, and we can't be pushed and

27:29

pulled by even the family

27:29

members, you know, we want to do

27:33

what's best. But you know, your

27:33

family member might want a hot

27:36

tub being built in their home.

27:36

And that might not be medically

27:39

necessary or right now

27:39

financially efficacious for

27:42

anybody to do. So you know, you

27:42

have to kind of walk that fine

27:45

line. And we're we're very

27:45

careful about that. We're

27:48

looking at emails, we're looking

27:48

at reports. And you can kind of

27:51

see when it starts to veer. And

27:51

we that's when we kind of

27:54

intercede again, being proactive

27:54

versus reactive. If there's a

27:57

problem, you just jump on it.

27:57

And if we have to transfer file,

28:00

we will we hate to do that.

28:00

Sometimes it's the converse,

28:03

sometimes the personalities

28:03

don't get along at all, whether

28:05

it's a case manager, an injured worker, the case manager, the doctor, case manager and the

28:07

adjuster, you know, so we're

28:11

dealing with people and I always

28:11

tell customers and potential

28:14

customers that we're going to

28:14

make mistakes, we're human

28:16

things are gonna happen, but

28:16

we're going to own it and try to

28:19

fix it and learn from it. So

28:19

boundaries is a big deal. Like

28:24

for example, like I said,

28:24

They'll ask us sometimes to take

28:26

video to doctors, we can't get

28:26

involved in surveillance

28:29

surveillance issues, we can't

28:29

have an email, we can verbalize

28:32

to a doctor, Hey, did you see

28:32

that video that Paloma sent on

28:35

my blog. But we can't get

28:35

involved with that we have

28:38

ethics that we have to maintain

28:38

as case managers. We can't get

28:41

involved in anything that's

28:41

adjusting or surveillance wise,

28:44

or any of that kind of stuff

28:44

either, like, Hey, I didn't get

28:46

my check paid. You know, help me

28:46

with that. I'm always telling

28:49

case managers, that's not our

28:49

job, you need to start to the

28:52

adjuster.

28:53

Know, and those are

28:53

fantastic points. I think, you

28:56

know, there's a real move right

28:56

now to claims advocacy, which I

28:59

love the concept behind it. And

28:59

we've kind of done our own twist

29:02

on that calling an empathetic

29:02

resolution model. And the main

29:05

reason for that my big concern

29:05

with the word advocacy is who

29:09

are you advocating for? Right?

29:09

There are a lot of people

29:13

involved in this. There's the

29:13

insured the actual employer who

29:17

paid a premium to the carrier.

29:17

There's, you know, the

29:20

stakeholders of the carrier,

29:20

there's the injured worker who

29:24

needs the right treatment.

29:24

There, you know, the list is

29:27

really long of all the people

29:27

involved. So if I'm advocating

29:31

for the injured worker without

29:31

thinking about how it connects

29:34

to everything else, going back

29:34

to your thing about boundaries,

29:37

that's challenging. So trying to

29:37

find that balance, I think is

29:41

hard. woma Have you have you

29:41

noticed that some in your

29:44

experience on the claim side?

29:46

Yes, yes, most

29:46

definitely. And you know,

29:48

there's a saying that, you know,

29:48

a nurse, a nurse has heart so

29:51

they have a lot of compassion.

29:51

And so I can see how that can be

29:54

challenging. So once you're

29:54

meeting with these people

29:56

regularly, they have multiple

29:56

appointments throughout the

29:59

week, then The wife is there you

29:59

see their children like you

30:02

develop a bond. But then again,

30:02

you kind of have to step back.

30:07

And remember, what am I here for

30:07

what are you know, objectively,

30:10

you can have that relationship

30:10

with them, which I think is

30:13

crucial for them to be able to

30:13

trust. And you know, that is

30:15

all, you know, empathetic. I'm

30:15

all about that, I believe in

30:19

that strongly. But then also,

30:19

like Greg said, remind remember

30:23

the stakeholders and everybody

30:23

involved and what the big

30:26

picture is, overall.

30:27

Yeah, I talk a lot about social determinants of health. And I think it's and

30:29

again, that's like echoing what

30:31

Greg said, the movement in our

30:31

industry right now is empathy,

30:34

holistic approach to claims and

30:34

to injured workers. I think

30:38

that's really important, too.

30:38

And when you do that, it

30:40

definitely affects the bottom

30:40

line. Oh, yeah. We all have to

30:43

be aware of the bottom line, we

30:43

get that. And I think, though,

30:46

you know, we've lived in a world

30:46

where we've kind of like been in

30:48

pods in our industry, you know,

30:48

you get the adjuster pod, you

30:51

got the we're all a family.

30:51

We're all right, as we all are a

30:56

team and that injured worker

30:56

cannot be forgotten. Everybody,

31:00

you know, thinks, oh, they're

31:00

malingering when the statistics

31:03

10% or less is really, you know,

31:03

but that 10% takes up 90% of

31:06

your time we get that. But you

31:06

know, not everyone's a player,

31:09

and most people aren't. And

31:09

you're right, yeah, it's to look

31:13

at the most Listen, as we were

31:13

brought up as case managers,

31:15

I've talked about this before,

31:15

we were told, Don't ever ask

31:18

questions about their family

31:18

life, don't ever ask questions

31:20

about how they're feeling. Stay

31:20

out of all that somebody that is

31:24

the way we were raised in

31:24

industry. So a lot of your case

31:27

managers they know to stay out

31:27

of there, they don't want to go

31:29

down that road, well, we need to

31:29

go down that road, because that

31:32

road, affects pain, affects

31:32

recovery, affects return to

31:35

work, you know, affects

31:35

compliance, going to therapy,

31:38

going to doctor's appointments.

31:38

So we as case managers need to

31:42

kind of open our view, and

31:42

realize, you know, what, we have

31:45

to help them find resources in

31:45

their community that could help

31:48

them What if they're having

31:48

trouble with food, you know, in

31:52

the house, or childcare, to

31:52

enable them to go to therapy or

31:55

a doctor's appointment? So we

31:55

need to kind of open our horizon

31:58

a little bit and realize that, you know, we really do need to kind of address those things.

32:00

And it's not dangerous, doing

32:03

those things, is dangerous, not

32:03

doing those things. It's a whole

32:06

different paradigm shift than

32:06

what we've been taught before.

32:09

Yeah, I think you're right, I think it's thinking about the big picture.

32:10

And then communication, what you

32:13

said earlier, communicate,

32:13

communicate, communicate, we've

32:15

got to be talking to come up

32:15

with solutions will ultimately

32:19

the best, the best result is

32:19

they get healthy, they get back

32:23

to work, and the employer has

32:23

some back on their workforce,

32:26

and everybody gets to move

32:26

forward. But you know, if we

32:30

don't address all the reasons

32:30

and obstacles that could be

32:33

there, and we might find

32:33

ourselves right, fighting over

32:36

something that in the end puts

32:36

us in a much worse spot?

32:39

Absolutely.

32:39

Nobody, you know, you want to

32:41

decrease legal, you want to

32:41

decrease psych, you want to

32:44

decrease pain management, you

32:44

know, medications. So how do you

32:48

do that? By keeping that

32:48

connection with your injured

32:50

worker and making them feel

32:50

empowered? You know, people feel

32:54

disenfranchised, that's when

32:54

they're like, oh, you know, I

32:57

don't really know, how many

32:57

times do we hear from injured

32:59

workers? I never hear from my

32:59

employer. They don't care about

33:01

me, you know, so that it's the

33:01

littlest thing, right? That

33:05

motivates somebody to be non

33:05

compliant or to hire an

33:09

attorney. And once you go down

33:09

that slope, that's, it's very

33:12

hard to relocate

33:13

spectrum. Trust is

33:13

hard to rebuild once you lose

33:16

it. 100%. And that's kind of

33:16

goes for all parts of life. I

33:20

think. So. Yeah. So we've talked

33:20

a little bit about empathy. And

33:26

we've talked a lot about your

33:26

company. I know you mentioned

33:29

that. One of the big differences

33:29

for your company opposed to some

33:33

of the others that are out there

33:33

is the seven to 10 years of

33:36

experience, what do you feel

33:36

like are some of the other

33:38

differentiators when you decided

33:38

I'm going to create my own

33:40

company? I wanted to look like

33:40

this because I think I have that

33:44

with my team. Like, when I

33:44

became a vice president of a

33:48

Claims Department. Those were

33:48

the things in my mind, like,

33:50

what did I want this to look

33:50

like? Why are we going to be

33:53

different than our competitors?

33:53

And how is that going to be

33:56

something that's an advantage as

33:56

we're competing in the

33:59

marketplace?

34:00

Yeah, three,

34:00

three main things. So one of the

34:02

experiences, we talked about

34:02

having the footprint, that's

34:04

huge. That's, to me, the key

34:04

differentiator enabled us to you

34:08

know, not keep files open as

34:08

long and by the way, we don't

34:11

incentivize case managers

34:11

develop, like in the companies I

34:13

was brought up, you know, do

34:13

what you do. And I'm when I'm

34:17

onboarding customers, I tell them right away, okay, I don't care where are you from, but

34:19

this is the way it rolls here.

34:22

So the experience makes a big

34:22

difference number one, number

34:24

two, is our QA our quality

34:24

assurance. So I have a

34:29

department made up of all

34:29

experienced case managers or

34:32

adjusters, you know, people in

34:32

the industry, and every case

34:35

manager is assigned one

34:35

counselor, and this QA

34:38

counselor, and we're copied on

34:38

every email, and we read it or

34:41

whole QA team is on that, you

34:41

know, email. So we're reading

34:45

the email. So we have a company

34:45

calendar, it's voluminous ly

34:48

detailed and nobody does this

34:48

because it's so detail oriented.

34:52

We track every milestone of

34:52

every case, doctor's

34:55

appointment, Mr. If ce que me

34:55

all that stuff. up, and we're

35:00

tracking when you guys ask a

35:00

question, you need to make sure

35:03

that answers in 24 hours, we're

35:03

tracking after a doctor's

35:06

appointment, you know, all this

35:06

stuff is being tracked, to give

35:09

us all that quality and our case

35:09

managers, even though their

35:12

experience, that's the level I

35:12

expect them to be at, you know,

35:16

if they get a question and you

35:16

don't respond, you get a case,

35:19

you need to respond within 24

35:19

hours, you got an appointment,

35:21

and you respond within 24 hours.

35:21

So our QA, I've never seen a

35:25

company that does it. Usually,

35:25

again, we're proactive versus

35:28

reactive. The only time I see

35:28

other companies and I

35:30

experienced this, get involved

35:30

is after the problems happened.

35:34

And by then you're playing catch

35:34

up, you know, in life, in

35:36

general, when you're behind the eight ball, you're not going to do as well as when you're 48.

35:38

Alright, so the QA is huge. And

35:41

then the third difference, I

35:41

think, is our transparency. Like

35:45

I said, we're going to take

35:45

ownership, we don't pass the

35:48

buck, If a mistake is made, and

35:48

it's our mistake, we're going to

35:52

eat time or whatever, and then

35:52

learn from it, I do my due

35:55

diligence, I know there's five

35:55

sides to every story. Because I

35:59

have a story of the case manager

35:59

to you know, the injured worker

36:02

says this, The doctor says this,

36:02

he just said, you know, I My job

36:05

is to kind of drill down and see

36:05

what I really feel is real, and

36:08

then to learn from it and to

36:08

take ownership. So, again, that

36:11

transparency travels to other

36:11

issues like referrals, you know,

36:14

I turned down referrals, which

36:14

is unheard of in this industry,

36:17

right? Why would you ever turn

36:17

down a referral, you know,

36:20

because if I don't have the best

36:20

case manager to handle it, I'm

36:24

not gonna just throw a body on a

36:24

firewall, you're not gonna get

36:26

good ROI. And I care about my

36:26

customers and my customers

36:29

respect that. You know, I,

36:32

I appreciate them all. Because you've done that to us before where we called you on

36:34

something and you said, Why

36:36

could but the travel time just

36:36

doesn't make sense. It wouldn't

36:39

make sense. And I think you can

36:39

find somebody closer who can do

36:42

the right thing for you. And I

36:42

really appreciated that instead

36:45

of you just saying, Well, I can

36:45

solve your problem. And then we

36:47

get a bill for, you know, three

36:47

hours or two hours of travel

36:50

time. That doesn't make sense.

36:50

Yeah. No, I don't believe

36:53

in that. Yeah. I

36:53

mean, I think that, again, being

36:56

honest, and treating people like

36:56

the way you want to be treated,

36:59

you know, I mean, honesty is

36:59

always the best policy, I always

37:02

tell that to my team, I tell it

37:02

to my case managers, you know,

37:05

if something happened, you know,

37:05

document it and confess off to

37:09

it, you don't want to hide. So I

37:09

really am happy to hear that,

37:13

Greg, because you know, and lots

37:13

of times, I'll offer, Hey, can I

37:16

eat some of the travel time and

37:16

the mileage? If I feel I have a

37:18

good case manager who knows the

37:18

doctor who could do a good job

37:21

for you? And if that's the only

37:21

stumbling block, then I'll help

37:23

out. But I'm always honest, you

37:23

know, and I'm very proud of my

37:27

team that the same way, because

37:27

that's how our customers trust

37:31

us. We talked about trust.

37:31

That's huge right here. I mean,

37:34

a trust with customers.

37:35

And absolutely,

37:35

yes. So what's your favorite

37:38

part, Molly, of being in this

37:38

business?

37:43

It depends on days. I feel like I wear a firefighter hat. And I'm putting

37:45

out I'm sure you guys feel this

37:48

way too, right? Yes, fires all

37:48

day long. Usually, it's a full

37:51

moon. I can't do the

37:51

correlation. There's a full moon

37:54

and everybody's blacking out.

37:54

Yeah. But what I really love is

37:58

making a difference in people's

37:58

lives, no matter how small or

38:01

large. And I was at a partners

38:01

meeting with a customer of ours

38:06

and a guy who was involved in a

38:06

catastrophic case, surprise me,

38:09

it was there and talked about

38:09

what a difference case

38:12

management meant in his life. He

38:12

was unconscious, and his wife

38:15

was dealing with the case

38:15

manager. And he was talking

38:18

about what a difference it made

38:18

in his recovery. And I was

38:21

starting to cry, because I

38:21

didn't, you know, again, we do

38:25

our job. And you know, we're

38:25

used to doing our job, we kind

38:27

of forget, but we really do make

38:27

a difference, we really do

38:30

impact people. So that's the

38:30

most rewarding. Another thing

38:34

that's rewarding to me is when

38:34

you have somebody being

38:37

discharged from the hospital,

38:37

they got injured in one place,

38:40

and they live in another. And I

38:40

love it. I call it like a

38:43

symphony when it works, because

38:43

we have one case manager who's

38:46

working with the hospital and

38:46

another case manager where they

38:49

live. And then the case managers

38:49

are talking to each other. So

38:52

that way, when that injured

38:52

worker comes home, they're not

38:54

waiting two weeks for an

38:54

appointment of a robot. So I

38:56

love that kind of synergy that

38:56

happens, you know, when you've

38:59

got multiple case managers

38:59

working a file together and

39:03

helping each other. I just

39:03

really enjoy what I do. No, no,

39:07

two days are the same. Right?

39:07

You know, and the day flies by

39:12

and then it's like three o'clock, like, oh my god, what happened? But no, I really

39:14

enjoyed I love working with the

39:16

case managers, because I know

39:16

what their job is and how hard

39:21

it can be, especially when COVID

39:21

happened. You know, I always

39:24

tell my caseworkers to do not do

39:24

anything that you're not

39:27

comfortable with. Don't put

39:27

yourself in the situation, we

39:29

rolled out telehealth that was

39:29

great, you know, to have as a

39:32

tool in our toolbox. So I really

39:32

respect our case managers are on

39:35

the front lines, they do the

39:35

hard job, you know, my job is

39:38

nothing compared to what they

39:38

do. So I love all aspects. I

39:42

think of the business and the

39:42

vocational case management, all

39:45

that other kinds of stuff and do

39:45

life care plans. You know, it's

39:47

kind of need to see like the

39:47

whole I stay in my lane. You

39:51

know, people come to me and

39:51

said, Hey, do DMEM do

39:54

transportation? Yeah, that's

39:54

what I do. stay in my lane and

39:59

do a good job.

40:00

Oh, that's

40:00

fantastic. I couldn't agree more

40:02

with you, Molly, my, I was

40:02

interviewing a candidate

40:05

yesterday for a position in our

40:05

company. And he was asking me

40:08

like, what, what keeps me going?

40:08

He asked me that same question.

40:11

And I said the same thing. It's

40:11

people, it's a feeling like I

40:14

can make a difference. Yeah.

40:14

Either the injured workers that

40:17

we work with, or the staff who

40:17

worked for me, I felt like

40:20

there's opportunities to

40:20

hopefully some people's lives

40:23

are better, because what I'm

40:23

doing all day long, and that's

40:25

the goal anyway, and so I can

40:25

completely relate to that. I

40:30

want to throw you both a

40:30

curveball here to end it out. So

40:35

one of the things I feel like

40:35

and maybe it's just always been

40:38

this way, but it seems like

40:38

there's a lot of yelling and

40:41

shouting at each other and anger

40:41

back and forth when you turn on

40:44

the TV of who's right, who's

40:44

wrong. And it's created an

40:48

environment that sometimes it

40:48

feels like, the only things

40:51

going on are really negative.

40:51

And I really believe there's

40:54

beautiful things going on. And

40:54

so one of the things I decided

40:57

to do this season is I wanted

40:57

people that we interviewed to

41:01

share a memory of a time that

41:01

they were truly happy. What were

41:05

they doing and what Who were you

41:05

with, and it doesn't have to be

41:07

work related. But I just want to

41:07

show people who are listening to

41:11

human side of everybody, because

41:11

I think we get so caught up in

41:15

the negativity. And I really

41:15

believe that there's beauty out

41:18

there if we just take time to

41:18

acknowledge it. So maybe I'll

41:21

throw it to Paloma first and

41:21

then have Molly jump in and

41:25

share her her memory.

41:27

Sure, sure. So

41:29

me and my family,

41:29

we love to travel. And I would

41:32

have to say within the past

41:32

year, we've resorted to

41:35

traveling to a lot of national

41:35

parks. And one of the happiest

41:37

days was when we were at Zion

41:37

National Park. And me and my

41:41

boys and my husband climbed

41:41

Angel's Landing out of the way

41:43

to the top. But I was proud of

41:43

how far we made it. And just the

41:47

journey up there. You know, I

41:47

have a 11 year old, an eight

41:51

year old and they're troopers.

41:51

But you still heard the

41:53

complaining, you know, hey,

41:53

well, how much longer was it?

41:55

You know, I'm thirsty, do you

41:55

have some Twizzlers? You know,

41:58

all those things. But then, you

41:58

know, on the way, we also met

42:01

very interesting people that we,

42:01

you know, made relationships

42:04

with and connected with. And

42:04

once we got to where we were,

42:08

you know, they look down, and

42:08

they're like, Wow, we made it

42:10

this far. And they didn't think

42:10

that they could do it. And I

42:13

think that was in itself

42:13

rewarding. It's obviously a

42:16

beautiful park and in a

42:16

peaceful, you know, situation in

42:20

itself. So I think overall, that

42:20

just kind of made my heart very

42:24

happy to see that we were all

42:24

together in you know, nature and

42:28

with the children, and they were

42:28

able to do it. And they thought

42:31

they couldn't do it. And we all

42:31

accomplish something together.

42:34

And I think that was rewarding

42:34

considering everything that we

42:37

went through with COVID. And,

42:37

you know, online schooling and

42:40

all of that. It was just

42:40

something we all did together,

42:42

and everyone was happy in the

42:42

end after it was somewhat of a

42:45

struggle to get up there.

42:46

I love that forum.

42:46

I bet designs is beautiful. So

42:49

if you haven't been people

42:49

should go check that out because

42:51

it is definitely one of those

42:51

inspiring places. But I think my

42:55

favorite thing about what you

42:55

shared is that your joy came

42:58

through seeing others and your

42:58

family push and do something

43:01

they didn't know that they could

43:01

do, which I think just says a

43:03

lot about who you are promo. So

43:03

thanks for sharing that. Molly,

43:08

what's yours?

43:09

Oh, I have to

43:09

convince you to Yeah. It's so

43:12

hard to narrow it down. So we're

43:12

close. I'm gonna travel. It's

43:14

like, oh, yeah, I have one day

43:14

when I love England, I think in

43:18

a previous lifetime if you

43:18

believe in this stuff. Because

43:22

I'm walking around London, and

43:22

people stop and ask me for

43:25

directions. I feel really

43:25

comfortable there. I feel like

43:27

I've been there before. I just

43:27

adore London. And we finally

43:31

have our trip. My family. My

43:31

husband and my son have never

43:34

been abroad. So I'm taking them

43:34

we were supposed to go two years

43:36

ago and then COVID and everything happens. So we're going Hey, so I'm very excited.

43:38

But it's very different to go

43:41

travel like you mentioned and

43:41

you guys both know the kids and

43:44

going by yourself. Yeah, you

43:44

know, so this is a whole

43:47

different trip. But anyway, my

43:47

favorite time is I was in Hyde

43:50

Park. I love staying in the

43:50

Kensington area when I'm there.

43:53

And I was in Hyde Park on my

43:53

birthday just walking through

43:55

the park by myself and just

43:55

really liking Wow, I'm in

43:58

London. I'm in my favorite place

43:58

in the world. I'm here on my

44:01

birthday. You know, it's

44:01

peaceful. It's relaxing. I'm

44:04

looking around all the people

44:04

and just very grateful. You

44:06

know, I agree with Paloma

44:06

traveling, I think it's the best

44:09

education. If more of us travel

44:09

there'd be less prejudice. More

44:14

appreciation for our lives in

44:14

United States. I'm telling you,

44:17

I love travel. But gosh, we have

44:17

a really good here compared to

44:20

other countries. So and travel

44:20

is just key. So that's my first

44:24

one I love, you know, being in

44:24

England and stuff. And the

44:27

second one is we were in

44:27

Charlotte over this past

44:30

Thanksgiving and again, travels

44:30

have taken a whole new meaning

44:33

guys, right since we weren't

44:33

able to do it. I think we're

44:35

savoring it more now because we

44:35

didn't have the opportunity to

44:39

do it. Greg will never have the

44:39

opportunity to travel. So many

44:43

kids, but anyway, but we were in

44:43

Charlotte, you rented a lake

44:46

house and my son had never seen

44:46

like fall leaves like he's a

44:51

Florida guy and we live in South

44:51

Florida. Oh yeah. It was

44:54

hysterical to watch. He raked a

44:54

pile of leaves. And I said just

44:57

jump in. And he's like, Well

44:57

What do you mean? Mom? You know,

45:01

he goes, Do I fall back? Do I

45:01

sit? Do I lean into it? I mean,

45:05

there's like a whole big

45:05

discussion about because I grew

45:09

up north, I'm like, do you just

45:09

jump in God and I jumped in, and

45:13

it was just so nice to see. And

45:13

you live through your kids,

45:16

right? You lived through their

45:16

eyes. And for him to kind of

45:19

experience Paul, and he never

45:19

experienced it before. It was

45:22

just really kind of cool. So

45:22

that was really a happy moment

45:24

too.

45:25

I love that. I love

45:25

both those thoughts. I I think

45:29

for me, I can really relate to

45:29

your discussion that your your

45:31

your memory in Hyde Park and

45:31

that for me, I think some of the

45:34

best moments I've had are those

45:34

quiet moments where you're

45:37

really pondering and you just

45:37

you can feel at peace and you'll

45:40

like can see where things are

45:40

clear for a minute and yes, and

45:44

not so busy and obviously with

45:44

with six kids. There's there's

45:48

lots of leaf jumping and

45:48

craziness that happens. I could

45:51

write a book on crazy Hamlin

45:51

stories for sure. They're great.

45:57

Well, Molly, I've so enjoyed

45:57

having you with us today. I seem

46:01

for you Paloma. It's a joy to

46:01

work with both of you in

46:04

different capacities and want to

46:04

thank all our listeners for

46:08

joining us for this episode, and

46:08

would remind you to do right

46:11

think differently and don't

46:11

forget to care. That's it guys.

46:15

Hope you join us next time.