0:03

Please note that this podcast contains

0:05

information regarding sensitive events

0:07

, including domestic violence

0:09

, assault and abuse , as

0:11

well as other triggering

0:13

events such as murder . This

0:17

podcast is intended for mature

0:19

audiences . When

0:22

Alice jumped down the rabbit hole , she

0:24

immediately regretted her decision . A

0:27

rabbit hole is a metaphor for

0:29

something that transports someone into

0:31

a troubling , surreal state or situation

0:34

. Welcome to Afterglow

0:36

, unveiling the Idaho

0:39

Cult . This

0:41

podcast will take you down the deepest of

0:43

rabbit holes . As it unfolds , the

0:45

story is so compelling , so bizarre

0:47

and so genius . It's impossible

0:50

to look the other way . Chad

0:52

DeBal and Lori Vallow were dedicated

0:54

, in the most horrible way , to

0:56

an ideology that should only be

0:58

fiction . Instead , their

1:01

ideology put them behind bars

1:03

. Join us as we explore

1:06

the lives , lies and diabolical

1:08

crimes of Lori Vallow and Chad

1:11

DeBal . I'm your host , kathy

1:13

Brooks . Please follow and subscribe

1:15

wherever you get your podcasts . This

1:20

is episode 18

1:22

of season 2 , serena

1:24

Sharp . Now

1:30

, before we get started , i just wanted to

1:32

remind you all that this is a one-woman

1:35

show . It's just me . I'm

1:37

the editor , producer , investigator

1:40

, researcher and

1:43

the audio , and

1:45

it's not easy

1:47

to fit in an entire

1:50

podcast

1:53

into my normal life . I'm

1:56

a registered nurse , as I said before , i

1:58

work 40 hours a week as a case manager

2:01

and I also have a side

2:03

job , so this

2:05

is not for profit . I'm

2:07

not making money on this . This

2:10

is literally for me to share

2:12

all the research I've done on this case

2:14

, because I started following

2:16

the Lori Vallow Chad DeBal case in

2:19

January of 2020

2:21

. This case didn't even

2:23

start hitting the news until December

2:26

of 2019 . So

2:28

enough of me . But if you

2:30

would like to help keep the

2:32

show going , those donations are

2:34

so valuable to me . So

2:38

what's very valuable to me is

2:40

giving me the five star rating . If

2:43

you've been with me this long , you appreciate

2:45

the show I'm sure you do , and I really

2:47

appreciate you so much . Thank

2:52

you . Also . This is now being uploaded to my YouTube

2:54

channel . Okay , so

2:57

let's go ahead and get started , and

2:59

this is April 15 , 2020

3:02

. If Nathan Moffat is

3:04

now visiting Lori , melanie

3:07

Gibb , jason Miles , print Serena

3:09

Sharp She is one of the three

3:11

girls that knows

3:13

stuff that was going on and was part

3:15

of this casting out

3:18

circle of people . So

3:21

that's what this episode's about , and I will go ahead

3:23

and let that get started right now . Thank

3:25

you again .

3:33

April 15 , 2020 at 1650

3:36

hours . Detective Moffat , i'm

3:50

going to be speaking with Serena

3:55

Sharp . Hi

4:01

, thank

4:45

you . How's

4:51

it going , are

4:55

you , serena ? I'm Detective Mahfow with China PD . You

5:01

have a couple of minutes

5:03

to talk . Sure , okay , i'm

5:06

here to talk to you about Horry Valow . Oh , okay

5:09

, you

5:15

want to sit down or come up here ?

5:19

We're in the middle of lots of projects

5:21

.

5:22

I think everybody is , because that's what being locked

5:24

in your house does .

5:25

Yes , it does .

5:27

Some TV . Okay hold

5:30

on .

5:31

Sure , i

5:41

think most of my kids are in the back , so

5:49

I'm just a friend . Do

5:51

you want to come ? Whatever

5:54

you prefer .

5:55

Yeah , come on in . I

5:58

love the giant sliding glass door . That's awesome . Do

6:00

you want to come ?

6:07

Yeah , excuse me , oh

6:10

, no problem , dining

6:12

room table work , that

6:15

works . Could

6:18

, you remind me , your name . Detective

6:20

Nathan Mahfow . I'm with China Police Department

6:23

, Okay So .

6:23

That's right . Yeah , i just love Christina And

6:26

Nicole's house , so

6:31

, yeah , so I'm kind of How is

6:34

he ? I'm kind of following

6:36

up . Let me start with how you know , lori

6:38

, okay , i'm

6:41

not worried to Just a question

6:43

.

6:47

We need you because I've never met anybody

6:49

. No , no , it's just that I'm not worried .

6:52

Just a question We need

6:55

you because I've never met anybody . No , no , if you want

6:57

to sit in , you're more than welcome to .

6:59

Yeah , I just wanted to invite you in case you wanted to . Oh

7:02

, no , I .

7:04

No thanks , No problem .

7:08

You're not the only one . No , if you need

7:10

me , i'm happy to just pay for that . I'd

7:13

have to do it , okay .

7:15

So how'd you meet Lori ?

7:17

So I met Lori through Symmetral Friends . So

7:20

Jason Mao is a friend of mine . Okay

7:22

, He came out and we were living

7:24

in Connecticut at the time by the time . So

7:27

, Okay , I

7:29

met Jason because I needed him to be a

7:31

keynote speaker for a big function that

7:33

I was doing out there for , like

7:36

, youth ages 12 , 18

7:38

. Okay , For

7:40

a regional event . So he came out . We

7:42

got to be great friends . He just stayed with my family

7:44

for that week .

7:45

Okay .

7:46

And then we went to New England and he's like you remind

7:48

me of my friend named Melanie , Last

7:52

name Gib Gib . Yeah , Melanie

7:54

Gib , And he's like you should

7:56

connect with her because we were doing a lot of the same

7:58

things , just in separate places .

8:00

Okay .

8:01

Okay , So I gave her a call

8:03

and we just became instant friends

8:05

and How long when was that about

8:08

? Here

8:12

it goes . Hold on a second

8:14

Look at the calendar

8:16

.

8:19

Okay , So how funny because you

8:21

met Lori , so once separate . But

8:24

then Nicole has known Lori for like 10 years

8:26

, So just kind of small

8:28

world thing .

8:29

Yeah , Okay , So I met

8:31

. Let's see This year's 2020

8:33

, 2019 , 2018 . So

8:36

this is 2018 that

8:38

I met . Jason

8:41

and then probably fall of 2018

8:43

. September is

8:46

when I met Melanie over the

8:48

phone .

8:49

Okay .

8:50

And then she said you should come to preparing

8:52

a people , because I've been into

8:54

food storage and preparation and all that kind

8:56

of stuff for years .

8:57

Okay .

8:58

And we just became friends over the phone . She's like

9:00

and I was going to stay with Jason , but she's like no , come

9:02

with me , then we don't have to worry about

9:04

drivers , and you know , because

9:06

, jason , i'm not going

9:09

to be alone with another man because I'm married . Okay , so it

9:11

was just easier . Gotcha , she

9:13

was sweet and picked me . It's just like I'll pick you up . You don't

9:15

need to rent a car , just I'll pick you up from the airport

9:17

, and so Was that here The preparing of people

9:19

conference here ? Okay , So we ended

9:21

up . So I stayed

9:23

with Melanie that weekend and she drove

9:25

me to a friend's house to stay and it was Lori's

9:28

house . I had never met Lori before I

9:30

walked through the door or heard of her .

9:31

So you stayed at Lori's house , not at Melanie's

9:33

, correct ? Okay ? Was Melanie living here at the

9:35

time ? Was she in Salt Lake Or was she in Utah ? Okay

9:38

, but you just happened to . Did

9:41

you stay at Lori's ? Did Melanie stay with you guys at

9:43

Lori's ? Yeah , okay .

9:44

Yeah Yeah , there's a bunch of us that

9:46

stayed there , gotcha , Do

9:49

you need to know the names , or Not

9:52

?

9:52

necessarily , unless it ties into

9:54

kind of the big picture of things .

9:57

I'm just trying to get a history of it , okay .

9:58

Okay , did

10:03

he stay at Lori's also ? Yeah .

10:06

So that's the first time I met any or even heard

10:08

of any of those people .

10:09

When would you say that was ? Would you say that

10:11

was 2018 ? Like fall of 2018

10:14

? November , okay .

10:17

I would say I

10:20

don't know if it's still in my income .

10:22

And is that when you met Chad Mm-hmm

10:24

.

10:24

Okay , yep .

10:27

Okay .

10:27

Yeah , So first or One

10:30

of the weekends in November before Thanksgiving

10:32

.

10:32

Okay , that's helpful . Did

10:35

Chad and Lori know each other before then ?

10:38

I assumed they did . Okay , i

10:40

met everybody for the first time ever , except for

10:43

Jason Mal , okay , so

10:45

I was pretty overwhelmed that weekend Gotcha With everything

10:48

. Okay , i'd never

10:50

been to Arizona since I was a kid and I had come to visit

10:52

. Okay , i didn't

10:54

Like , for some reason , meeting Melanie

10:56

face to face , so

10:58

Gotcha , i was like

11:00

When you meet a whole bunch of people

11:02

. Yes , you're overloaded When everybody

11:05

knows each other just kind of wide-eyed

11:08

.

11:08

Okay , so

11:11

I

11:13

guess where does . So you meet everybody kind of

11:15

for the first time in November of 18 .

11:18

Yeah , but I'm there for the conference . Okay , so

11:20

we go , and that was for the Preparing of People

11:22

conference . Yeah , Okay , and I helped

11:24

, like we go early . Oh

11:26

gosh , if you need me to know

11:28

specific dates , i think I flew in on Thursday

11:31

. We went to the temple Thursday night

11:33

. Friday She had people

11:36

over at her house for like a morning side

11:39

type of thing , okay . And

11:41

then Friday night we went early to Preparing of People

11:43

conference to help set up .

11:44

Okay .

11:45

Because Melanie's was really tight with the

11:48

people running the program .

11:49

Okay , and that was your

11:51

first time even becoming involved

11:54

or seeing Preparing of People My first time . Yes

11:56

, yeah , yeah , if

12:00

I got associated with the

12:02

Council or

12:04

the no-transcript

12:07

, your

12:12

relationship with Lori and kind

12:15

of all the collectin'

12:17

ball like they .

12:19

Yeah .

12:22

So I mean they seem nice

12:25

and At

12:28

the time Knowing then that

12:30

Chad was married to somebody else , did there

12:32

seem to be like an

12:34

inappropriate relationship already building

12:37

with them , or I

12:39

think that didn't even cross my mind ever

12:41

. Okay , not once .

12:43

Okay , in retrospect maybe I

12:45

can see some things that

12:48

, but like a car ride alone

12:50

, just because I wouldn't do that .

12:51

Yeah .

12:52

But that's .

12:53

But no interaction with everybody else .

12:55

No , it was like always combined

12:57

and I had

12:59

no idea Other than that , like because

13:01

they were both married , So like that thought just

13:03

didn't even enter . Okay

13:05

, so Coming naive

13:07

, and it probably was , but I just didn't

13:10

see anything . So From

13:12

.

13:13

It's my understanding that

13:15

it was right around that time

13:17

that they met . So

13:19

I think their relationship

13:21

, their friendship or whatever you want to call

13:23

it at that time was still fairly new

13:25

. So I don't think you .

13:26

Right From my understanding , they had met

13:28

at the previous .

13:29

Maybe , and maybe it was just a couple months beforehand

13:31

or something like that . Yeah , so

13:34

it was somewhere right around the fall

13:36

of 2018 is my understanding of

13:38

when they met .

13:41

So when

13:44

did you ?

13:44

move down here .

13:45

Just recently , okay , so

13:48

I flew out here to look for houses in July

13:50

, okay .

13:52

Had Charles already . The whole thing with

13:54

Charles already happened . Yes , okay .

13:57

Yeah , so I moved down , we

13:59

moved down here . We came to House Hunt at the end

14:02

of July and then

14:04

we moved down as a family . My kids

14:06

came with me a few days later and

14:09

then I'm trying to think time-wise And then I

14:11

had to fly back up , finish packing up the

14:13

house . So technically

14:15

we actually closed up this house like September

14:17

, right after or

14:19

right before .

14:21

Did you stay somewhere in the interim before you

14:23

moved here ? Did you move directly from there

14:25

to this house in September ?

14:27

We stayed at Marribee and Beacon , right

14:29

by Queen Creek High School . Okay , the golf course

14:31

There's like a little . There was a

14:33

rental home in our left-wing .

14:34

We stayed in for a month On Las Colinas , the golf course

14:36

, the golf course on Rittenhouse

14:39

.

14:42

Still not . okay , it's bad at this . Elzworth Loom . Yeah , if you

14:44

make the left at Elzworth Loom , there's a whole bunch of houses

14:46

there .

14:47

They kind of fly the high school behind it .

14:48

Yeah , okay , i don't know what that golf course is called . Yeah , so we stayed

14:50

there for one month . We moved in here , okay , so we stayed there for one

14:52

month .

14:52

We moved in here .

14:53

We moved in here . We moved in here . We moved in here

14:57

. We moved in here . We moved in here

14:59

.

15:00

So from the time

15:03

that you met I guess met them to

15:05

the time that you

15:08

moved down here , did you have many more

15:10

face-to-face interactions with Chad

15:13

Lori and Just

15:15

a couple , okay .

15:16

So I went to the Preparing

15:18

of People in February in

15:20

Idaho , okay . And I stayed with

15:22

my sister and went to Preparing of People

15:24

, So stayed with my sister . We

15:26

stayed in a hotel with all the Preparing of People

15:28

for a couple of days . My sister did not

15:31

go though , Okay , And then

15:33

. So I saw Chad there

15:35

. Lori was not there .

15:37

Okay , lori wasn't at that conference .

15:38

No , she was down there . So then

15:41

we had a girls' weekend in

15:43

March where I flew

15:45

out here and that's where I met Christina and Nicole

15:48

.

15:48

Okay .

15:49

And we worked at their warehouse because

15:52

I love that kind of stuff And I've done international

15:55

stuff like that on the opposite end , so

15:57

I clicked with those two really fast

16:00

.

16:00

Okay , my pen is working

16:02

, barely .

16:04

So there's a bunch of girls for that weekend

16:07

.

16:09

Christina and Nicole . Then Yeah , Okay

16:12

.

16:12

And that's like a year ago , March , so just

16:15

over a year ago .

16:15

Okay .

16:17

And then when I moved , so

16:19

and that's the second time like

16:21

I had seen Lori face-to-face , We had had

16:23

some phone calls and stuff between us . And

16:26

then , and something that all interchanges

16:28

in texting , And

16:35

with your interaction with Lori

16:37

.

16:37

I guess after

16:39

this and kind of in the March and stuff , had

16:42

you seen anything with the Chad

16:44

, the relationship developer , progress or

16:46

I

16:50

was down in Connecticut So I didn't like

16:53

and I was not

16:55

like in the inner circle . if that's

16:57

what you want to say . Did you do any of the podcasts with

16:59

them ?

17:00

Yes , okay So when I came out in March , I did

17:02

two podcasts .

17:03

Okay .

17:03

Yeah , all in one morning . It was Monday

17:05

morning right before I left , so I did two podcasts .

17:12

Because , again , i was friends with Jason and Yeah . I

17:15

was at about the time that Jason was doing the podcast

17:18

with them .

17:18

Okay , Yeah , and

17:21

Jason and I again were friends

17:23

And that's so . They wanted me to come on and

17:25

talk about how I met Jason and like

17:27

how it went up there when he came and spoke to the

17:29

youth .

17:29

Okay , brouard verso occupation , violence and trauma or , obviously

17:33

, we just sent podcasts right at the same time

17:35

. Okay , you're , are

17:37

you LDS ? Okay , did you

17:39

ever hear or see any of the

17:42

Lori and Chad and maybe

17:44

some of the other groups kind of way

17:46

out of left field compared

17:48

to the LDS church ?

17:50

Yeah , I mean there was some stuff from the beginning

17:52

, a few things that

17:55

aren't like aligned with straight

17:58

church doctrine , that talked over

18:00

the pulpit , but I wasn't concerned

18:02

about anything until like

18:04

that March . Okay , There

18:06

was a couple of things like maybe

18:09

there that I was a little uncomfortable with , but then afterwards

18:12

just

18:14

some things that they were saying are you LDS ?

18:16

No .

18:16

Any chance . Okay , like

18:20

, for example , she was talking about not repenting

18:22

and that we don't

18:24

need to repent anymore And

18:26

I'm like it says all for the Bible that we need

18:28

to repent and come to God , like , and that

18:31

that was a big trigger for me . They also

18:33

at that about that time too . They

18:36

she kind of cut me off as well

18:38

. She said that I was

18:40

all sorts of stuff . I'm sure you've

18:42

got all the evidence for that .

18:44

Is that when she said you were an able spirit or dark

18:46

or whatever ? Okay , which ?

18:48

I did not know at the time . I got really , really

18:50

sick And it

18:52

was . They told me that

18:54

. They told me that Zulama

18:57

was going to handle like

18:59

me and just help me through it And

19:02

I just kind of just stopped communicating

19:04

with me but never told me why . Nobody

19:06

, and Zulama didn't tell me this .

19:08

Did you ? what did you meet ? When did you meet Zulama

19:10

?

19:12

At the first preparing of people in November .

19:13

Okay .

19:15

And we became good friends Like

19:17

pretty fast . So

19:21

I saw her again at the February one

19:24

And we talked often . I probably

19:26

talked more to her than anybody .

19:27

Okay .

19:29

But yeah , after the March one , they

19:31

just said that I was afterwards

19:35

like prideful and I was going to be turned

19:37

evil , and I didn't know any of

19:39

that , though , until just recently . Melanie Gibbs

19:41

is the one who told me that in . January . Okay

19:43

, so that was very hurtful to hear .

19:45

But I had no idea . I'm

19:50

not LDS , but I believe in the power of prayer And

19:52

trust me when I say you don't need their prayers , okay

19:55

.

19:57

Yeah , but it was hurtful too . Yeah , absolutely

19:59

. You know what I mean . Yeah , I didn't understand what was

20:01

going on And I just met people and I

20:03

only met her twice , like in person And

20:06

have somebody say , like treat

20:09

you often . You know , there's a huge flip

20:11

. That's been a huge

20:13

switch , that's been flipped And you just don't understand

20:16

why . And I thought it was because I was sick . And

20:18

she said , like evil spirits

20:21

are like attacking you , And

20:23

I did know that . She did tell me that . That

20:26

she said won't she say that there's a breach

20:29

? and that I

20:31

was being indoctrinated at night . That's what

20:33

she told me . I thought

20:35

, Oh dear . So like I

20:37

tried to just get better and fix anything

20:40

that I thought might be wrong in my life

20:42

, which always got stuff to work

20:44

on . So but then after that

20:46

she went back to me and I guess that's when she said

20:48

I was turning evil , My husband was evil And

20:52

I didn't know she said that either , until Melanie

20:54

told me .

20:55

Okay Yeah , just

20:58

this past January , okay Yeah

21:01

.

21:01

Yep .

21:03

Knowing now , i guess , how much ? how much of

21:05

the investigation have you seen on the

21:07

news or anything else like that , since

21:11

this is progressed , yeah , and

21:13

you're kind of aware of all the different things that we're investigating

21:15

, looking , looking back on

21:17

it , is there anything that you ever saw or

21:20

heard that you go Oh

21:22

, the police really should know that type thing

21:24

, or that doesn't sit right , or , you know , maybe it

21:26

just doesn't feel right , or is there anything

21:28

like that that you saw ? It's kind of sounds

21:30

like she cuts you out kind of early

21:32

, yeah .

21:34

Which protection for me ? And yeah

21:37

, so I wasn't . I only had those two contacts

21:40

before I moved here , and then , after I moved

21:42

here , i saw her twice .

21:44

You saw Lori twice . What was that ?

21:47

So I moved here in July , okay , and

21:51

it was either Zulima or Lori and

21:53

I can't remember , which said Hey , let's have a lunch

21:55

. And so we met at , like all

21:57

the girls , cafe

22:01

Rio Cafe , because to

22:03

me . Yes , thank you . Okay . So

22:06

we met there for lunch And

22:08

it was weird . Okay , i could just tell things

22:10

were weird .

22:11

Is that the lunch that the girls lunch that Alex was present on

22:13

? Yes , okay , was that the first time that

22:15

you met him ?

22:16

No , i had met him when I met Lori

22:19

the first time . Okay , so in

22:22

November , that's referring to people he came over .

22:24

Okay , once a day Did

22:26

you have much interaction with him . Anything that stands

22:28

out about that interaction ? I mean anything

22:30

, no , okay , no

22:32

, anything

22:36

that you ever heard that we should

22:38

know . It sounds like you're kind of on the periphery

22:40

. Yeah , i was definitely . I was kind of in a state And thank

22:42

heavens Right , i was really

22:45

protective .

22:45

I think it was the whole thing . No

22:48

, it actually made moving here harder , but we just knew we were supposed

22:50

to move here .

22:50

So , regardless of It

22:53

sounds like you have really good friends and you've seen it

22:55

in Nicole . So

22:58

everything happens for a reason , right ?

22:59

Yes , And they're amazing And my kids

23:01

we're supposed to be here . My kids are amazing

23:04

and they've had a good experience , so we're

23:06

supposed to be here . That's great . That's been awesome

23:08

.

23:09

So the reason that I came

23:12

to be , here to talk to you , hi Jared .

23:13

Hi , jared , i'm Nate .

23:14

Nice to meet you , nice to meet you . I

23:18

don't know if you've seen any of this in the media and stuff , but this was

23:20

a thing with that

23:22

Chad was sent , sent Lori , and the

23:25

names were blocked out because I didn't know how everybody

23:28

knew each other and why

23:30

. So one of these is Nicole

23:33

and one , the other one is Christina

23:37

, and then you and then obviously Melanie

23:39

gave Jason Mao , and so

23:42

no , absolutely . It's

23:44

better from the beginning , so you can kind of get

23:46

where they believe your history is and where everybody

23:48

else's history is . So

23:55

you know

23:57

, chad is a writer , right

23:59

? So they're basically

24:02

writing a book

24:04

of their story , with

24:07

Chad being James and Lori

24:09

being Elena . Ah , okay .

24:14

That's what James and Elena is . Jenna , okay

24:16

, yes , seven children and

24:19

three daughters . So

24:32

Lori's guardian angels ? I

24:41

don't recognize her , but I do recognize , like

24:43

well , everybody's heard of kind of the good

24:46

Melanie is her niece . I met her

24:48

once really quick at that lunch . Oh

25:04

, is this Christina and Nicole ? Yeah , one of them

25:07

.

25:07

I don't remember which one was which , but yes

25:09

.

25:36

They did tell me that .

25:38

Tell you which part All

25:40

of this Do

25:42

you know about , or when that was .

25:45

She told me that I think it was March .

25:47

Okay , march , when you were down

25:49

, because that one was here , right .

25:51

Yeah , that's when you came here . I've

25:53

been before that , i don't

25:55

think so

25:57

But that was not .

25:58

That was just for the girls weekend type thing

26:01

, yeah , and not for a preparing the

26:03

people conference . Correct , okay .

26:06

Like , we went to the temple , we went out to lunch , we went and worked at Gathering

26:09

Humanity and did service projects

26:12

there , and I actually went two days to that

26:14

.

26:14

Okay .

26:17

And just because that is

26:21

my thing . So

26:23

that's why I connected so well with Christina

26:25

and Nicole .

26:26

Okay , So

26:28

anything that you can think of . I mean I know I don't know how much you've

26:30

talked to , but both Christina

26:33

, especially Christina , but then Nicole In

26:36

hindsight they heard things that they're like , wow

26:38

, that really didn't sit right , But sounds

26:40

like you had limited contact with , or

26:43

no contact with , Lori after March .

26:45

So No , I did Remember . I said

26:47

, when I moved here I saw her twice .

26:48

Oh , okay , yeah , the lunch .

26:49

Mm-hmm the lunch , And then she had

26:52

some girls over to her house one night .

26:54

Okay .

26:55

Just shortly after that , and I think that was in

26:57

July , because it was I was house hunting

26:59

at that time , okay , and it might have been

27:01

the very first part of August , like right

27:03

around there . It was pretty close together .

27:05

Okay .

27:05

Within a week or two .

27:08

But nothing that stood out , nothing that you heard

27:10

.

27:14

It's hard to separate kind of all the

27:16

media on the press Okay , but I'm trying to think

27:18

I was separated obviously

27:21

by Miles , which was good

27:23

, and then being ostracized as well . I

27:25

think the only thing that concerned me was

27:28

that March weekend when

27:30

she was talking about her husband being

27:33

And this

27:35

was one of the red flags I was talking about for

27:37

that March .

27:38

Okay .

27:38

Her husband was now , because I had met

27:41

him in November . Charles , okay

27:43

, and then , just briefly , i was

27:45

like leaving when he was coming in .

27:47

Okay , because I know he wasn't there When you were down at the conference

27:49

.

27:49

He wasn't there for most of the weekend . Okay , Until

27:52

the end . So

27:54

in March she was saying that he

27:56

had been possessed

27:59

by an evil spirit , but I

28:01

think that's our go-to And

28:06

that it was no longer Charles

28:08

, that it was somebody else inside of his

28:10

body And

28:12

that they needed to

28:14

get rid of . Like

28:17

somehow we need

28:19

She needed to cast him , she needed

28:21

help casting the evil spirit out

28:23

, or something like that . So , but

28:26

zombie , that's what . Like it was a zombie is

28:28

what we call it .

28:32

They never talked about killing the zombie , though , right .

28:35

No , that's casting it out like getting rid

28:37

of the zombie , but not actually like killing his

28:39

body .

28:39

Yes , But like Removing the spirit

28:41

, yes , okay .

28:43

Yeah , yeah . And

28:45

then somehow , like removing the spirit , like

28:47

Charles was already gone , so I didn't know if that meant

28:49

Charles would come back or the body would die

28:51

or whatever . Okay , but

28:54

yes , removing the spirit of Ned

28:56

. I think it was Ned .

28:57

Okay .

29:00

But I thought that was a little uncomfortable with that whole

29:02

thing , Like obviously that's a little

29:04

out there , So a lot .

29:08

Anything else you could think of ?

29:14

She talked to me in August , so that

29:16

beginning of August , end of July , when I went to

29:18

her house She told me that night because that's

29:20

the first time I'd seen her since Charles had died

29:22

. I just asked her like are

29:24

you okay ? Like what happened ? Because

29:27

I don't really like watching the news , I don't like the

29:29

text .

29:31

They screwed up most of the time . Yeah , what

29:34

did she say happened ?

29:37

Like in her words .

29:39

That you remember .

29:40

Okay , so she

29:42

told me that Charles

29:45

came to get JJ

29:47

.

29:47

Okay .

29:48

From . I think it was school , yeah

29:51

, and when he was picking up

29:53

, jj Tiley was there

29:56

.

29:56

Okay .

29:58

And then she had Tiley take JJ up to the car And

30:01

then he picked up a bat . Charles did

30:03

, but her

30:05

brother , alex is it Alex or Alex

30:07

? Alex was there And

30:10

Alex just shot

30:12

and killed him . Okay , and

30:15

I think she said shot him twice , is that

30:17

right ? Yeah , yeah

30:19

. And then he shot and killed him And it

30:21

was horrible . And he came at him with

30:23

the bat and hit . I think he said he hit . No

30:28

, charles hit Alex with the

30:30

bat . And then Alex had

30:33

to shoot him .

30:33

Gotcha . So that's the story

30:35

I got , but it sounds very much like that's

30:38

the story she gave to police as well . So Very

30:40

similar Yeah .

30:41

She wasn't going to tell me anything . I

30:44

mean , we weren't close at all And she thought I

30:46

was going to turn evil , right

30:49

?

30:49

Okay , excuse

30:54

me , i'm

30:57

going to . I ran out of business cards

30:59

, so I'm going to give you my

31:02

desk number and then my email

31:04

address . They have us working from

31:06

home three out of four days a week , so

31:08

emails best , because

31:11

, like this is my office day And I don't think I'm back in

31:13

the office until next Friday .

31:15

So , email .

31:15

Yeah , we work for

31:17

10 hour days and we're just kind of drawn off

31:19

these days . And then I also did give

31:22

. I gave Christiana

31:26

and Nicole my phone number in case

31:28

you lose it . I gave Nicole my email

31:30

address . I forgot to give Christiana . I'm

31:36

getting promoted and going back to the road

31:38

in a couple of weeks , so I haven't figured . it's not

31:41

worth ordering business cards .

31:43

Good for you . Yeah

31:46

, So what Melanie told me in

31:48

February , so January . she

31:50

gave me kind of the rundown of everything that happened

31:52

. She said that I started

31:54

asking too many questions last spring

31:56

.

31:58

I don't doubt that . I don't doubt that that Lori

32:00

became cynical , i

32:02

think . I think what worked well for them

32:04

is they were looking for other people that bought

32:06

into their outlandish beliefs

32:08

And

32:11

I think if you didn't buy in , you weren't

32:13

a believer and I had this

32:15

conversation with both

32:19

Christiana and Nicole is

32:21

all religion is

32:23

based a lot on faith And

32:25

if this is their religious views

32:28

, how do you dispute or

32:30

debunk it when it's their religious views ? Right

32:32

, and I think that's a lot of what

32:35

this is . They were hunting

32:37

for people like Zulema , very like

32:39

minded people , that would

32:42

follow this .

32:44

Right And they start

32:46

very much with things that are mainstream

32:48

, yeah . And then when you kind of

32:51

like , yes , i believe that , yes , i believe that , and

32:53

then they kind of add to that , so it makes

32:56

and some of it makes sense . When

32:58

you like look at the scriptures You've

33:01

never heard of before , but like , maybe

33:03

Yeah . But then when I started , when

33:05

I got sick and started asking questions

33:07

, like and when they started

33:10

talking about like repentance thing , like some

33:12

things , just didn't sit well . And Melanie

33:15

said that when I started asking questions is

33:17

when they decided that I was going

33:20

to turn dark and my

33:22

husband already was .

33:24

I think anybody who disagrees with their view

33:26

is dark , and the more you disagree , the darker

33:28

you are . The more you're in your

33:30

wet in their way , the darker you are

33:33

. So right , so

33:35

So

33:37

.

33:43

What is going on with the investigation ? Is she

33:45

in custody ?

33:46

She's still in custody .

33:47

In Idaho I don't know Okay . Was

33:50

there a hearing with ?

33:51

that She has a preliminary hearing set for

33:53

May 5th .

33:54

May 5th .

33:55

Yeah , i think it got delayed because

33:58

of the COVID-19 and

34:00

they're not gathering courts

34:03

and stuff like that . I mean it's

34:05

really kind of unprecedented

34:08

where we're at in the country . Right , i

34:10

did read a thing Idaho has had very , very

34:12

few cases that they might open

34:14

the state up a little bit sooner than everybody else . Okay

34:17

, so , but last I heard it's May 5th

34:20

and there's a lot of data to go on . I mean

34:22

you look at , we have the Chandler PD case

34:24

, we have the Gilbert PD case , we have the Rexford

34:26

PD case , the missing kids , right

34:29

, you have Fremont County Sheriff's Department case

34:31

for CHATS-1

34:33

. So there's , and then the FBI's have been involved

34:35

in different facets

34:37

. So it's a very big

34:40

investigation and

34:42

a lot of the investigations are ongoing .

34:44

So And do you guys kind of work together ?

34:46

Do you think there's no Yeah we've been working together , i

34:48

mean we've been working nonstop , and

34:50

I think Gilbert's going out tomorrow to do more interviews

34:53

and I did the three today .

34:55

So is that ? do you mind me asking , like because

34:57

you're saying Gilbert and Chandler .

34:59

Yes .

35:00

There's why .

35:01

Melanie Prudero's husband was shot at in

35:04

October .

35:07

Wow .

35:07

So Yes , yeah

35:10

, seriously , he was pulling up to

35:12

his driveway and

35:14

, for all practical purposes , in my opinion , alex

35:17

was waiting there and Tiley's cheap

35:19

and fired a shot at him . So

35:22

I think we have enough . We would have if

35:24

Alex hadn't passed away , we would have had enough to charge

35:26

him for that already and

35:29

a couple other different things . So you know

35:31

you got a lot of different moving pieces

35:33

on this but so you have , you know , six

35:36

different jurisdictions with , when you put everything

35:38

together with the feds and stuff that are

35:41

all investing , investigating different pieces

35:43

of this , but they're all interwoven . I mean it's all

35:45

Oh yeah . Very much one

35:47

rolling event

35:49

of disaster following Chad Lori

35:52

and So .

35:55

It's so upsetting and shocking

35:58

that somebody who seems because

36:01

I seem normal when I met them just

36:03

kind of like hearted , nice

36:05

people , Like who opened up their homes so

36:07

that a whole bunch of people , could you

36:09

know , crash there from out of state , And

36:11

I mean Well

36:14

, my

36:16

belief is that So I actually met JJ and

36:18

Tiley that weekend .

36:20

Yeah , my belief is

36:22

they're kind of rolling after a self-fulfilling

36:24

prophecy of whatever it is that

36:26

they think benefits

36:28

them right now And it's just , you know , it's

36:32

just kind of gross , i mean , really

36:34

, with the totality of the investigation

36:37

and the things that we've uncovered and stuff . It's just

36:39

, it's bizarre at best . Really

36:42

, it's just , yeah , it's one of those

36:44

things , it's tragic and at

36:46

the end of the day there's still two kids missing .

36:49

And the deaths that are like piling

36:51

up are horrific .

36:53

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely .

36:55

Because she has what ? two husbands

36:58

, yeah , i don't know

37:00

. And then he's got

37:02

his wife , who's seemingly

37:04

out of the blue .

37:05

Yeah .

37:06

Weeks after she moved . There is what ? No

37:09

, i mean he was just saying

37:11

I didn't even know she had moved .

37:13

Yeah , she moved there on end of August , beginning

37:16

of September , So so-

37:20

.

37:21

And then Alex passed away . Did

37:24

I assume they have the corners , Cause

37:26

I know- ?

37:27

Yeah , that's still pending in autopsy Okay

37:30

.

37:31

I'm sure there's findings but probably not

37:33

released yet It does appear that

37:35

there might be an underlying .

37:37

I'm saying Karma got him . It does appear

37:39

that there might be some underlying medical conditions . It's

37:41

still pending a lot of toxicology

37:43

and stuff , but there's a very good

37:45

chance that Alex's could be a

37:47

natural death . Okay , So I'm

37:51

not as convinced for everybody else

37:53

. So Move kids

37:55

, Yeah , Yeah

37:58

.

37:58

Cause she seemed like when I met her in November

38:00

with her kids there , like she really

38:02

left kids as far . I mean

38:05

, i didn't even question that , you know

38:07

.

38:07

Yeah , but hypothetically , you know

38:09

, evil spirits get in the way

38:11

, and you know And

38:13

they're not her kids anymore , just like he

38:15

wasn't her husband anymore . Yeah .

38:18

And they're stopping her from doing whatever she thinks

38:20

she needs to do .

38:21

Yeah .

38:22

So what about ? do you mind me asking about Zulema , Like

38:25

where is she in all this ? What happened

38:27

to her ? She's still at her house in Gilbert

38:29

, as far as I know Is she .

38:31

I mean , there's some things that we wanted to follow

38:33

up with her on And

38:36

she's retained an attorney , so

38:38

Oh , really , yeah , so

38:40

we actually have a call into her attorney right now to try

38:42

to do a follow up interview on her

38:44

. But yeah

38:47

, oh my gosh , she

38:50

was very much subscribed , a lot to .

38:52

Lori and Chad's extreme

38:54

views . So Yeah

38:57

, I do know that Cause , like I said , we

38:59

were close for a few months there . Yeah , Until

39:01

I was

39:03

ostracized about .

39:06

It's a good group to get kicked off . Yes , So

39:09

I'm gonna get kicked out of something

39:11

That's a good group to get kicked out of . I'm just saying I

39:13

know For

39:16

sure .

39:17

Do you have any questions for me ? Like Not that

39:20

I can think of .

39:21

I mean it's you know . I know that

39:23

, like Christina had heard , she

39:25

was at Zulema's house during a prayer thing

39:27

and Lori got way overboard

39:29

And there were statements made . Now

39:32

I'm more concerned about what you know firsthand

39:34

. I wasn't , yeah . Yeah , so you

39:36

know . At least I have

39:38

some good background information and stuff . Yeah

39:41

, like I said , we're just kind of following

39:43

up and clearly JJ

39:46

and Tylee aren't with you , correct ? No

39:48

, now haven't heard a scene from them in . You

39:51

know quite a while .

39:52

I wish .

39:54

You know that's part of the thing is just making sure that

39:56

we run down any and all acquaintances

39:59

Right . You know , i

40:01

would assume that every

40:05

normal person when they see the national news about

40:07

two kids missing , if the kids were there they would . Especially

40:10

when Lori's in jail , they would go . Hey , i

40:12

have the kids they're here to save it sound , and

40:14

that hasn't happened , so-

40:16

.

40:17

I keep open , but like that is

40:19

becoming more dim , yeah , as time goes

40:22

on .

40:22

Do you guys have ?

40:23

any hope that the kids are alive .

40:25

Personally I don't . I

40:27

mean , i just don't at this point , when

40:29

you know Lori's been on

40:32

the run since the day of a welfare check

40:34

that she didn't know was coming

40:37

and basically left town that

40:39

day and hasn't looked back , was

40:41

sitting in Hawaii , make statements to the attorney

40:43

that the kids are fine , And now you're sitting

40:45

in jail . If you left

40:47

your kids with a reasonable , responsible

40:50

adult and you're sitting in jail for abandonment

40:53

, they truly are just with a responsible

40:55

adult And you don't want to

40:57

go all right , the jigs out . They're right here So

40:59

and they haven't . So I

41:01

just with that and a lot

41:03

of other things that I just can't discuss . Obviously

41:06

it makes us all depending investigations . I

41:08

have very , very little hope . Slum

41:12

to none . It's a little left town . So

41:14

Thanks And

41:16

that's . You know that's me personally , but . But

41:18

so

41:20

this is my contact information . If

41:23

you happen to think you

41:25

know tonight , next week , whenever like , oh

41:27

man , i just forgot that I heard this or

41:30

that , or whatever , just follow up

41:32

, call me and leave me a voicemail or shoot me an email

41:34

.

41:35

And you're looking for first hand stuff Cause , like Melanie

41:39

, told me a lot in January but you're not looking

41:41

.

41:41

We've interviewed Melanie . Yeah , myself and the

41:43

Gilbert detective interviewed Melanie for a couple hours

41:46

at the police department , and then they have

41:48

since re-interviewed her a couple of times . So

41:50

if that's .

41:52

She called me after that and she said I think I need

41:54

to tell you what's going on And I need to tell you what

41:56

happened to you . And

41:58

so she actually apologized , which was really sweet

42:00

.

42:01

But yeah , she's like . I just felt like .

42:02

I need to go to police .

42:03

I'm like yeah , You did a holy crap

42:05

, absolutely . What is a good contact

42:08

number for you ? All

42:14

right , yeah , so , like I said , if something comes

42:16

up that you think of , just shoot

42:19

me an email or give me a call . Yeah , i

42:21

appreciate your time . Grab

42:23

this .

42:24

Yep , no problem .

42:25

Everything I seem to leave out gets to the media one

42:27

way or another . So

42:31

the only blessing of this COVID thing

42:33

is it's got this case out of the media for a little

42:35

while , because it's out of sight on the mind

42:38

? Yeah , because this is a difficult

42:40

case at a lot of turns And , at

42:42

the end of the day , there's a lot of victims attached to it . What

42:44

we want to do is accountability , and

42:47

accountability and justice for

42:49

the victims of the case .

42:51

And give you guys the space to figure it out too . Yeah

42:53

, absolutely , But you have that time

42:56

.

42:56

I had an email leaked to the media last

42:59

week that was all over national two weeks ago

43:01

On that case All over national news

43:03

. Yeah , and it was in a response

43:06

to Charles had two adult sons

43:08

. Their moms have been in contact . I'm

43:10

like hey look , we're still working on it . I hope

43:12

to get Lori indicted . She ran to

43:14

the media with it . So you never know

43:16

who's going to run to the media next

43:18

, for whatever reason . So

43:21

it just makes the job more difficult , yeah

43:23

. So

43:26

, I appreciate

43:29

it . I appreciate it . I appreciate

43:31

you trying to do this . Yeah , that's the case

43:33

, and the bottom line in all

43:35

of this is our job is to fight the truth

43:38

. If she's done nothing wrong , or

43:40

if she's done nothing wrong , there's a day

43:42

. Yeah , absolutely

43:44

All right . You guys

43:46

, this is a big one . I

43:50

have some Nicole and Christina

43:52

. I've been an officer for over

43:54

20 years . I've been in

43:57

homicide for 11 and 1 half . This

44:00

is what I hope I ever see

44:02

, or we ever see again . It's just

44:05

beyond the reality of what the heck's

44:07

going on here . So The important thing

44:09

of soap opera Oh yeah , it's a total major

44:11

TV movie . So thank

44:14

you guys .

44:15

Or the big extreme , maybe

44:17

close Yeah absolutely

44:19

Well , best of luck .

44:20

Thank you very much . Yeah , in the public

44:22

comes up , like I said . if you remember , it's just going to be called . Yeah

44:24

, advice for us , if you think anything , absolutely , and

44:28

there might be , because , like I said , i'm

44:30

not going to take up my interview and then you'll

44:32

go to the FBI under one agent that's not dead . The

44:36

FBI isn't taking the investigation about their health

44:38

and work straight . You have

44:40

several different agencies , so it's kind of a clearinghouse

44:42

. So they might have some more information

44:44

or another question they want me to ask you . Ok , thank

44:47

you .

44:51

OK , that was it . I really

44:53

appreciate you all . Thank you so much for being

44:55

here . I will get my episodes up as fast

44:57

as I can . Like I said , it's

45:00

just a lot for me right

45:02

now The summer , a lot going on . My

45:05

kids live a couple hours away , So when I do

45:07

go visit my grandkids and my kids , I

45:09

can't work on a podcast on the weekend . So

45:12

have some patience . Thank you very much . for

45:14

those of you that have And other

45:16

people , hopefully you

45:18

understand that at this point that

45:20

there's a lot going on in people's lives And this

45:22

is not my full-time job . I wish it was . I would

45:24

love for this to be my full-time job . I would get you guys

45:26

an episode on the clock every

45:29

week , like clockwork . So

45:31

again , thank you And stay

45:34

safe . Stay well . Bye-bye . Music

46:07

playing .