0:01

Hello and welcome to Agriculture

0:04

Live . My name is Rebekah Shields

0:06

, I'm from Agricultural Recruitment

0:08

Specialists and today joining

0:10

me we've got Owen Atkinson . He's

0:13

an owner and director at Dairy Veterinary

0:15

Consultancy Limited . He's

0:18

also a Nuffield Scholar , a

0:20

Cow Signals Trainer and an RCVS

0:24

Specialist Dairy . That is all a

0:26

mouthful , there , isn't it ? Owen

0:28

Yeah , morning Rebekah I thought you're on your way to calling

0:30

me an ass , but no , thankfully

0:33

changed to RCVS Rebekah

0:37

We're going to be talking about are cow's

0:39

ruining the planet ? So some people

0:41

might have comments or questions . Please

0:44

feel free to post them up , if you

0:46

do , we'll get to them

0:48

, and so

0:50

it's over to you , Owen . So introduce

0:53

yourself where you work , what your company

0:55

does .

0:57

Yeah , thanks , Rebekah . So I'm

1:00

Owen Atkinson . I am a vet . My

1:02

company is Dairy Veterinary Consultancy

1:05

, which is kind of it is what

1:07

it says on the tin . I

1:10

was a vet in practice , as you might imagine

1:12

, most vets work for

1:15

20 years in

1:17

mainly farm practice and latterly in

1:20

a large dairy based practice in Cheshire

1:22

, which is where I still live and work .

1:27

And

1:32

then in 2013 , I left practice and made the unusual step of starting a consultancy business

1:34

, which is sort of taking veterinary into a different direction , really , and my

1:36

work now is

1:38

working with dairy farmers

1:40

, of course , other dairy

1:43

vets . I do a lot of training for vets and

1:45

second opinion work for

1:47

other vets ,

1:49

but within the wider industry really

1:52

. So within the wider dairy industry , I do a

1:54

lot of work with processors , a

1:56

little bit with pharmaceutical companies ,

1:59

etc .

2:01

Excellent . And so what makes you guys

2:03

stand out from your competitors ?

2:07

So my role is quite different

2:10

to most vets . I don't

2:12

do clinical work anymore , which means I

2:14

don't put my hand at the backside of cows

2:16

and I don't sell medicines

2:19

and I don't use a stethoscope

2:21

. So I'm not sort of dealing with sick animals . I

2:23

am all about prevention rather

2:27

than treatment . I

2:30

have worked hard over my career

2:32

to build up my expertise

2:35

and specialism . As you say , I'm an RCVS

2:38

specialist , which is a term

2:40

. Specialist is a protected term

2:42

for vets . You know you can't just call yourself a specialist

2:45

just because you fancy

2:47

doing that . You have to have the permission from

2:49

the Royal College and in order to do that

2:51

I have taken lots

2:53

of extra exams and

2:55

I undertake - I have to renew

2:58

that specialist status every five years by

3:00

demonstrating extra

3:03

competence and

3:05

skills in my area . The specialism

3:07

area is cattle health and production .

3:10

Fantastic . So how did you get

3:12

into this field and why ?

3:15

So I mean , I mean going back a bit . I mean I

3:18

was a schoolboy and I kind of quite liked

3:20

science and I guess I thought I was going to

3:22

be a doctor , I think , because I thought you know

3:24

, I like biology, but I was from a

3:26

farm as well and it was fairly

3:29

natural I think . It was probably more obvious

3:31

to other people than it was to me to become

3:34

a vet , and when I became a vet , I

3:36

was always interested in doing the farm animal stuff

3:38

. I guess

3:40

because I'm from a farm , or my my

3:42

dad , my granddad , had a farm

3:44

, so

3:47

that's really how I got into doing farm , being a

3:49

farm animal vet , and then my

3:51

career progressed . Like a lot of vets

3:53

, you know , you're out in practice and you do get

3:55

a bit frustrated . I think this is not something

3:57

that I suffered

4:00

from , but I know it's common amongst other vets as well

4:02

. Farm vets - is that you do spend a

4:04

lot of time treating sick animals and yet

4:06

what we really want to do , and what we're probably

4:08

better at , is preventing

4:11

disease in the first

4:13

place , particularly for your farm vet . That tends

4:16

to be what draws you into being a farm vet is

4:18

that prevention piece and working with people

4:20

and being , I

4:22

guess , having that , that wider overview . If you're interested

4:24

in treating sick animals , you know you'd be , you'd become

4:27

a horse or a pet

4:29

or you know cat and dog vet really , because

4:31

that's what , that's what you do . Um

4:33

, I wasn't

4:36

so interested in that . I was well , yeah

4:38

and of course we all say that

4:40

um

4:42

, it is , and of course we all say that

4:44

and it is true it's

4:48

complicated . I know you want to talk a little bit about the

4:50

wider aspect of agriculture and ruminant

4:52

farming and in terms

4:55

of the impact on

4:57

global warming and the planet , and

5:00

I think a lot of farm vets have that

5:02

, that very kind of global

5:04

view of the work they do . They

5:06

see it , they see the animal health work

5:10

they do in that wider context of

5:12

one health , if you like . But

5:14

you know farming animals is so intrinsically involved

5:17

with with human

5:19

health as well , because of nutrition and

5:22

, of course , global health , because of potential

5:24

global warming and care of our environment

5:27

. Um , but

5:29

yeah , I guess all that came

5:31

to a head and what stimulated

5:33

me to to leave practice and

5:35

set up my consultancy business to

5:37

allow me purely and solely to concentrate

5:39

on that wider , that wider

5:41

stuff , rather than be I'm

5:45

going to use the word dragged in , but it makes it sound very negative

5:48

but dragged into treating the sick animals , because

5:50

of course that's what the demand is from farmers . Farmers

5:53

ring the vet to usually go out and treat something

5:55

that is sick , and I wanted to remove

5:57

myself from that situation . Really , I

5:59

wanted to set my stall out in a different

6:01

way .

6:02

Fair enough . So you're a Nuffield

6:05

scholar , which is fantastic , so

6:07

can you tell people watching

6:10

and listening what one of those are ?

6:13

Yes , so the Nuffield Farming

6:16

Travel Scholarship scheme

6:19

. It's overseen

6:21

by the Nuffield Farming Trust . It

6:24

is a fantastic opportunity

6:26

If you're involved in agriculture at all . So

6:28

this is for farmers , but also

6:30

for people who are , like myself

6:32

, sort of involved as a support

6:34

industry are

6:37

eligible to apply for

6:39

a Nuffield Travel Scholarship , and

6:43

the key word is to

6:49

travel . You have to travel , uh , which is um no hardship if you enjoy traveling

6:51

, like myself , but you apply with a

6:53

subject that you're interested in investigating

6:56

further , and it could be anything . You know

6:58

, if you're a potato grower , it might be how

7:01

to grow potatoes better . For me , as

7:03

a vet , it was how

7:05

we , as farm vets

7:07

, could become better

7:09

communicators with our clients , and

7:12

particularly with dairy clients , and involved

7:16

really with how do we encourage farmers

7:19

to embrace change , how do we encourage them

7:21

to make changes , and

7:24

that was my Nuffield Travel Scholarship . That was in 2009

7:26

and 2010 .

7:29

Fantastic , interesting subject

7:32

. Did you learn a lot ?

7:35

Well , not as much as you kind of like , in the sense

7:38

that I mean , yes , I did and it was

7:40

fantastic . But you

7:43

know , there's no clear answer in

7:45

these things . I went with it with my , with my

7:47

question , which is how , as a vet , could

7:49

I be better at helping farmers

7:51

make changes ? And wherever

7:53

I went it was like , well , yeah

7:56

, when you find out the answer , come back and tell us , because we

7:58

don't know either . But that

8:00

was encouraging in a way , because it was a common problem

8:02

. It was a common problem that a lot of vets have

8:05

all around the world . So I was

8:07

going to . You know , I went to America , I went to New Zealand

8:09

and I went to the Netherlands . They were my three key

8:11

kind of countries I travelled to -

8:14

where I learned a lot . Rebekah, it actually was from

8:16

the developing countries they aren't

8:19

necessarily in the vet field . There's

8:22

been a lot of work . Um

8:33

, aids . So the aids epidemic back in the 1980s

8:35

was one of the things that really pushed on development countries to work . In

8:38

changing behavior

8:41

in particular . The

8:46

key elements were really something

8:49

called participatory learning or participatory

8:51

epidemiology , which is which is helping

8:53

people take ownership of the problem themselves

8:55

, and I learned a lot

8:58

from their learnings

9:00

, if that makes sense . So

9:02

, in other words , as adults , you know , we learn , we learn, -

9:05

and other .

9:13

the show

9:16

that a said that , but um

9:18

, but today we're going to . about our

9:20

cows ruining the planet . So

9:22

tell us , owen Owen , tell us about

9:25

your passion for cows . I can see your

9:27

picture in the background . You know , where

9:29

did this passion come from ?

9:32

Oh gosh , I mean , anyone who works with cows , I think , probably

9:35

has a passion for them . They

9:38

are wonderful animals . They truly are . They

9:43

are wonderful because they're large and yet

9:45

they're usually relatively

9:48

gentle . The ones we work with are

9:50

usually very gentle and that

9:52

seems because they're

9:54

a domesticated animal that

9:57

have changed over

9:59

hundreds of thousands of years . People

10:01

sometimes talk of cows as being

10:04

the mother of civilization , and

10:06

I don't know whether , rebecca , whether you've heard that expression

10:09

, have you ?

10:10

I haven't actually tell us about that .

10:13

So it sort of stems from the fact that , you know

10:15

, we as human beings now , in this modern

10:17

world , we live in societies and

10:20

sometimes live in cities , et cetera , and countries

10:22

, and all that , we

10:38

could argue , stems from our ability as human beings to transition

10:41

from hunter gatherers to farmers . And cows were

10:43

one of the first animals that human beings domesticated

10:45

and farmed . And the reason why cows are so valuable is

10:48

because they produce that bit of protein every day in their milk

10:50

, so it's different to just eating their meat . It's living , coexisting

10:53

with cows and getting

10:55

nutrition from their milk

10:57

, basically , and that

10:59

, according

11:02

to some , allowed civilization

11:04

to develop . Um

11:08

, according to some , allowed civilization to develop . And I

11:10

think that that kind of , you know , cows are in our genes in essence , because

11:13

human beings have co-evolved with

11:15

our domesticated , domesticated

11:17

cattle , and I find that absolutely

11:20

fascinating . And in

11:23

our country , in the UK , most

11:25

people in our society are quite , are

11:28

quite , divorced

11:30

from cows . You know they don't see cows and work with cows

11:32

where they don't , they're not lucky enough . But you haven't

11:34

got to go back too many years really

11:36

before , before

11:38

that wasn't the case . You know when , when

11:40

. If you didn't own a cow yourself

11:42

, you'd probably know someone who did . And that's still true when you go to developing

11:44

countries . And it's still true when um , you know when , when ? If you didn't own a cow yourself , you'd probably know someone who did . And

11:48

that's still true when you go to developing countries , and it's still true when well , even

11:50

in places like New Zealand and Ireland , most people are

11:52

from a farm , or their grandparents are

11:54

from a farm , or their or their parents are from a

11:56

farm , so so they have a closer connection

11:58

to farming and to

12:00

nature and to cows than perhaps

12:02

most people do in Britain at the moment

12:05

.

12:06

Wow , it is really fascinating , Owen

12:08

. So do you think the agricultural

12:11

industry gets all the bad

12:13

rap in terms of climate change

12:16

?

12:17

Well , they don't get all the bad rap , but

12:20

we get a lot and sometimes

12:22

you've got to wonder where that comes from . So

12:26

I'm

12:29

quite cynical sometimes about

12:31

where we're getting our messages

12:33

from , and I'm going to use a classic . You

12:35

know Oatly , oatly

12:37

Oat Milk , where they

12:40

have invested probably

12:43

millions of pounds in an advertising

12:45

campaign to get us to drink oat milk

12:47

, advertising

12:54

campaign to get us to drink oat milk . And they do it by almost guilt-tripping us into

12:56

thinking that if we're drinking dairy cow milk that we're ruining the planet

12:58

. And yet the message is is

13:00

very warped and it's to sell oat milk . That's

13:02

all it is . It's to sell oat milk , it's not to save

13:04

the planet . And

13:07

unfortunately that's

13:09

where a lot of the anti-dairy messages come from . I

13:11

mean , some of the anti-dairy messages come from other other

13:13

areas as well . Now , that's not to deny

13:16

any ownership of

13:18

the responsibility of

13:20

dairy farmers , in particular dairy farmers

13:23

. That's the sector I work in um

13:25

, any ownership of responsibility for

13:28

climate change . But I think to understand

13:31

the bigger picture is really important . But it's

13:33

a complex picture , so , um

13:35

, it's not easy to grasp

13:37

straight away . I'm happy to explain it a little

13:39

bit to you , rebecca , if you'd like .

13:41

If you'd like to see there's

13:44

a lot of talk about me . Fame from cows

13:46

yeah one of my aunties was like oh , you

13:48

can't . You know I've gone vegetarian

13:50

because you know of the climate change

13:52

that cows cause you know because that

13:54

is the message that we get everywhere yeah

13:57

, you know , explain it to us .

13:58

You know , are cows a major environmental

14:01

problem okay , so

14:04

I'm going to start with the biology , really

14:06

, of where methane comes from in a cow

14:08

. So cows are , and I'm fascinated

14:10

with the biology of cows digestion , because

14:12

I guess it's what I do . I'm a vet but

14:15

it is absolutely fascinating . How

14:17

cows can you another ruminant

14:19

, so sheep as well , but we'll talk about

14:21

cows . Um , they

14:23

can use grass and forage to

14:26

, to to feed themselves and

14:28

we can't , you know , as human beings , we can't . Pigs

14:30

, can't , chickens , can't , cows can

14:32

, horses can as well , but we will

14:35

just stick with . They don't get the same bad

14:37

rap . And the way and the reason

14:39

they do it is because of the rumen . And

14:41

in the rumen , which is about

14:43

a third of a cow , is the rumen . You know

14:45

, if you're going to look inside a cow

14:47

, it's huge . The rumen is is

14:50

what fills its belly and

14:52

that's a big fermentation vat and

14:55

it's the bugs in the rumen that break

14:57

down the foragers and

14:59

there's a whole plethora of bugs . I mean there

15:01

are hundreds and millions and

15:03

billions of these , bacteria

15:06

primarily , but also yeasts and protozoa

15:08

, and

15:11

there are some which

15:13

are called archaea . Now , archaea are not , they're

15:15

not a bacteria , they're kind of a more . There

15:17

are more um prime , primordial

15:19

organism than than bacteria

15:22

. They were one of the first back , you know , one

15:24

of the first organisms that that grew

15:26

on planet earth archaea and

15:29

they're very , very simple organisms and they can

15:31

survive on very , very little and

15:33

what they live on is hydrogen ions and

15:36

they , if you like , because

15:38

it's an ecosystem , that that that fermentation

15:41

back in the room is an ecosystem and

15:44

they all depend on each other . But basically

15:46

what they do is they break down grass , forage

15:48

, um , which

15:51

is cellulose , which which , like , say , human beings

15:53

that can't access that as a nutrient , and

15:56

and they create

15:58

nutrients for the cow . So , basically , the cow

16:00

lives on the nutrients that these bacteria

16:03

and sarcare and yeast and fungi um

16:05

produce in the rumen . The

16:08

cow is living on a bacterial soup

16:10

, or a sorry

16:12

, a microbial soup , if you

16:15

like , which sort of is a result of

16:17

this fermentation process . And

16:21

that's what makes cows very special they can turn food

16:23

, they can turn forage into food , which

16:25

other animals can't do , and human beings can , can use that

16:27

food , whether it be milk or

16:29

whether it be meat . Now , the archaea are the ones

16:31

that produce the , the methane , and

16:34

they do it because they mop up some hydron ions

16:36

, which is hydrogen ions , a part

16:39

of acid , if you know that , and and

16:41

they're quite important because they keep that balance

16:43

right it's all to do with the balances . It's

16:45

like , I guess , if you think about other ecosystems

16:47

you know the rainforest if

16:49

you remove one part of the ecosystem

16:51

, it affects everything

16:54

else , and if you remove the archaea

16:56

from rumens , it would affect everything else

16:58

. It would affect the efficiency and the

17:00

function of that whole ecosystem . So

17:02

these are the archaea , these little , little

17:04

little things that are smaller than bacteria , and they

17:06

produce methane . And they do it because they're part of that

17:08

ecosystem and

17:12

they've always done it , you know , know they've been , they've been around for as long as cows have

17:14

been around , for now , the methane they produce is

17:17

a byproduct of this fermentation , and

17:20

methane is a is a greenhouse gas

17:23

. It does have a global warming effect . Now

17:26

I think it's important just to get it into context , though

17:28

. So methane , as

17:30

a global warming gas

17:32

is probably accounts

17:35

for five to 10 percent of global

17:37

warming . The vast majority is

17:39

nitrous oxide , and carbon dioxide

17:41

is the big one , but also water vapor . Water

17:44

vapor causes global warming , so

17:46

methane does have a global warming effect . On

17:50

a pound for pound basis , methane

17:53

is quite a strong global warmer . So if you kind

17:55

of take a pounding weight of carbon

17:57

dioxide and a pounding weight of methane , then methane

18:00

is is stronger , but still nevertheless even

18:02

accounting for that , because carbon dioxide and water

18:04

vapor and nitrous oxide are produced

18:08

in bigger quantities methane still only accounts

18:10

for five to ten percent of

18:12

global warming . Now

18:14

the methane that accounts for this five

18:16

to ten percent global warming , about a quarter

18:19

of it comes from rumen

18:21

fermentation . It comes from cattle

18:23

and sheep , so that sets it in

18:25

ten . In context , it's a quarter of

18:28

, let's say , five or ten percent . So if we

18:30

went for ten percent , a quarter of ten

18:32

percent is two and a half percent . So two and a

18:34

half percent at most of

18:36

global warming comes from cattle .

18:38

Wow , and it's painted as like

18:40

you know it . You know so

18:43

much more than that , isn't it ?

18:45

And it's more complex than that . So

18:48

the thing about methane as a global

18:50

warming gas is it has a 10

18:52

year life cycle , so it breaks down

18:54

after 10 years . Carbon dioxide takes hundreds of years to

18:56

break down . Ok , so

18:59

if the cattle population

19:01

stays the same , then it's just

19:03

a balance . So cows are producing

19:05

methane , but at the same , at the same rate , they're producing

19:07

it is breaking down methane , but at the same , at the same rate they're

19:09

producing it is breaking down . It is true that if we increased our

19:11

cattle population or our sheep population

19:14

or any of the ruminants , then

19:22

the amount of methane , the net production of methane , would increase

19:25

. But

19:30

at the moment our world cattle population is relatively stable . But it is something

19:32

to consider . As human beings increase in number , you know they , they , they

19:34

tend to want more protein and therefore if we increase

19:37

our cattle population it's not happening in britain

19:39

, but it might globally then there would

19:41

be more methane produced from cattle

19:43

. But still keep it in context it

19:46

is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount

19:49

of methane that is produced elsewhere . So 25 is from

19:52

cattle . The amount of methane is produced as well . Well

19:54

, a lot of it , about a third of methane

19:56

that is produced um is

19:58

from fossil fuels in just

20:00

the , just the , because that's released

20:02

when you mine fossil fuels

20:04

, not when you're burning it when you're mining it , so

20:06

that produces more methane , but

20:09

about half of it . So the rest of it , the vast

20:11

majority methane actually comes from the

20:14

oceans and from soil . Now

20:16

, no one's saying that we should banish

20:19

the oceans and banish soil , because

20:21

it's part of this natural

20:23

cycle . The great thing about oceans

20:26

and soil is that they are

20:28

carbon sinks . So

20:31

if it's healthy so healthy

20:33

oceans and healthy soil they take

20:36

carbon dioxide and

20:39

and they hold it there , particularly

20:41

so , if you , I'll explain

20:43

kind of how that works . I'm I'm I'm

20:46

more confident about doing this in the

20:48

soil rather than on the oceans . But in soil , if

20:50

you've got permanent pasture or

20:53

tropical rainforests , I'm talking about vegetation

20:55

that's permanent , not cropping . I'm not talking

20:58

about wheat fields , maize

21:00

fields , soya fields , all the things that

21:02

people want us to do instead of keeping cows . I'm

21:05

talking about permanent pasture and

21:07

permanent vegetation , such as rainforests

21:09

. What they do , those plants they use carbon dioxide . I'm talking about permanent

21:11

pasture and permanent vegetation , such as rainforests . What they do , those plants they use carbon dioxide

21:14

. I think

21:16

everyone knows that they take up carbon

21:18

dioxide and they turn it into sugars

21:20

and building

21:22

blocks for their own life . That

21:26

carbon dioxide , or that carbon

21:28

, if you like , as the vegetation gets recycled

21:31

into the , into the soil , is held

21:33

in the soil and eventually , after millions

21:36

of years , it would become oil or coal

21:38

. Yeah

21:40

, so it's a sink . It's a carbon sink

21:42

. Cattle

21:53

farming within that context . If it is done with permanent pasture

21:55

so pasture based cattle farming it has a net global warming benefit because

21:58

the amount of carbon dioxide that

22:00

is taken up by those permanent pastures

22:02

more than outweighs the

22:05

methane which in any case is recycled

22:08

and breaks down after 10 years . So

22:10

it has a net cooling

22:12

effect on the planet .

22:14

So it's a good thing yeah

22:16

, but that's not how

22:18

the picture's painted , is it erin ?

22:21

and it's complicated . You need to

22:23

dig into it to find these

22:25

the truth out . Now , it

22:27

is true that you know we could do

22:29

better with dairy farming than you know we

22:31

like to say . I'm not absolving your responsibility , because

22:34

methane is a strong global warming gas . You know , if

22:36

we can reduce the amount of methane that we've produced

22:39

, and that's great . So therefore

22:41

, if we can farm our

22:43

cattle more efficiently , then that is great . If we can

22:45

use more regenerative pastures whilst

22:47

we do our farming , that is great . So that's that's

22:50

more . You know the carbon dioxide sorry

22:52

, the methane which is produced

22:54

from a cow that is grazing pasture or using forages

22:56

in silage is is

22:58

better for the planet than , let's

23:01

say , the cow that is fed a high um

23:04

uh soya

23:06

and maize diet . Because

23:08

that growing the soya and the maize , because

23:12

it's cropping which is

23:14

again what people want us to . You know , they

23:16

want us to eat the soya and the maize

23:18

ourselves and be vegetarians , but actually

23:20

that cropping doesn't

23:22

have that net global

23:24

cooling benefit of locking up carbon in the

23:26

soils . So it's

23:29

, you know it

23:31

is complicated to think well , how can , how

23:33

can keeping our cattle be

23:35

done in a more regenerative way , the

23:38

most regenerative way possible ?

23:41

so how can we change

23:43

this message then ?

23:47

well , it's kind of you to give me the opportunity

23:49

of having a little part of that this

23:51

morning . I guess , um , you

23:54

know those of us that are in the industry

23:56

. We need to upskill

23:58

ourselves and and learn what

24:01

is happening . We need to be

24:03

open

24:05

to suggestions and have our ears

24:07

open to , to wider

24:10

society . There's no point of just just just

24:12

going into this blinkered and and

24:15

and just in denial that that that

24:18

cattle and methane production doesn't

24:20

have any role at all in global warming . I don't

24:22

think that's very helpful . Um

24:24

, how do we do it , rebecca

24:27

? I don't know . I don't know in honesty

24:29

, because we haven't got millions of pounds

24:31

worth of of advertising money

24:34

to , to , to , let's

24:36

say , like oakley and I'm you know , I'm going to name oakley

24:38

because everyone knows it because of their millions of pounds

24:41

of advertising . Um , that

24:43

to . To put out this simple you know

24:45

what is ? A very simple but wrong

24:48

message that you know produce , eat

24:50

it , drinking milk is is warming the planet

24:52

and killing us all off . You know , if

24:54

only we did have that advertising clout to

24:57

put out a simple message to say no cows

24:59

, save the planet . I don't

25:02

know how we do it . I don't know how we do it .

25:03

I don't know how we do it . So what would you say

25:06

to people that ask you

25:08

know , do we need to give up consuming

25:10

meat ?

25:12

Do we need to give up consuming meat ? So we need to . We need

25:14

to be less wasteful with

25:16

all of our resources . I believe yeah

25:20

, if you want to give up meat , that's fine

25:22

. I mean , it is everyone's prerogative to not eat

25:24

meat , or be a vegan , that's

25:26

fine . I think to do so in

25:30

the belief that you're doing it to save the planet , I think

25:32

isn't correct . I think that

25:34

would be disingenuous . To believe

25:36

that unless you intend to

25:38

stop eating all food , you

25:48

know if you intend to not eat anything , um , but switching dairy for for um , let's say

25:50

um tofu isn't necessarily going to save the planet , because the

25:53

production of the tofu which is cropping , is , is

25:55

likely to , or tofu is like

25:57

, is like . You know , that in itself has got

25:59

a global um impact

26:02

. So as consumers , we

26:04

can be less wasteful . Probably

26:07

all of us could eat a little bit less of everything

26:09

yeah and be

26:11

less wasteful , um

26:13

, and arguably being

26:16

more careful about our protein . You know we

26:18

we over consuming protein in the west

26:20

. We do , so we don't need to eat

26:23

as much meat as we do , so that's a

26:25

that's a fair point , I think , um

26:27

but , then there's a lot of protein

26:30

diets that are , you

26:33

know , marketed , aren't there as well

26:35

? yes , yes

26:37

, yes , uh , I mean my , I've got

26:39

two boys , old boys , you know , my older

26:42

boys . They're sort of um , early 20s

26:44

both of them , and they like to have their protein shakes

26:46

and that kind of thing to to

26:49

help them build muscle , um

26:51

, which will be largely

26:53

dairy derived , because I think they're whey based

26:55

usually . Um , yes

26:58

, whether they need as much protein , I don't , I don't know , but

27:01

I think , know , let's not , let's not

27:03

ignore the obvious . Five

27:12

or 10 percent of global warming comes from methane . About 25 percent of that methane

27:14

is from cattle . So , in other words , two and a half percent of our global warming effect comes from

27:16

cattle . Where is the other 97

27:19

and a half percent coming from ? It is coming

27:21

from fossil fuels .

27:23

Yes .

27:25

Yeah , and I know it's hard . You know I

27:27

like traveling abroad and going on airplanes

27:29

and I like to live in a house that is centrally heated

27:32

, etc . But if

27:34

I want to have an impact on global warming

27:36

, it's there that I need to concentrate , really

27:38

, rebecca .

27:40

Thank you , owen . That's so interesting

27:42

. So what are your thoughts on

27:45

lab grown meat ? Because that's making

27:47

a big you know big

27:50

waves in the news at the minute .

27:52

Yeah , and I mean , I'm not an expert in

27:54

this area so

27:56

I don't know a lot about it . I've

27:58

sort of I've come across it , probably

28:01

like you have , rebecca , just by reading what I've

28:03

read , and and and from my understanding is

28:05

is that , um , that there's

28:07

been a lot of money put into it because there's a concept

28:10

it's quite interesting , but it's a

28:12

very expensive thing to produce , so so

28:14

, um , I'm not sure whether it'll actually get

28:17

there . Yeah , I mean , I'm I'm

28:19

not against farming animals , but

28:21

I am very pro animal welfare

28:23

and those two things are not that

28:26

that you know , one doesn't

28:28

mean that you can't have the other absolutely

28:31

you can farm animals and you can have good animal

28:33

welfare . I know that because

28:35

I work with cows , but I work

28:37

tirelessly to improve

28:39

animal welfare , because we can do better

28:42

. We can do better . We've co-evolved

28:44

with cows for hundreds

28:46

and hundreds of thousands of years and

28:49

we owe them our

28:52

. We owe them everything . Um

28:54

, we can continue to live

28:56

with cows , farming them for , hopefully

28:59

, hundreds of thousands of years more , but

29:01

to do so in a responsible

29:03

, humane and

29:05

caring way so how

29:08

can the lives of cows be improved

29:10

?

29:10

owen gosh

29:12

?

29:13

um more space for

29:16

a lot of cows . Cows do like

29:18

space and um , it's

29:21

a little bugbear of mine is when I see cows

29:23

with restricted space . So if I see

29:25

dairy farmers and they have fewer

29:27

cubicles , for example , than they have cows

29:29

cubicles be in the beds , then that gets

29:31

me quite cross . Um

29:34

, that'd be one example

29:37

. Lameness is another area where we just need

29:39

to keep paying attention on how we can improve

29:41

foot health all the time . I mean our dairy

29:43

herds . I've , you know I I work

29:45

tirelessly to improve lameness

29:47

. Some of that will be through genetic

29:49

improvements , but a lot of it is through improving

29:52

the environment of the cows

29:54

, better housing . Personally

29:56

, I do like to see cows outside on pasture for

29:58

the reasons I've said . That's

30:01

not to say that all farms need to have all cows outside

30:03

all the time , but

30:12

if they're on forage based diets , then that is a good thing for the environment , but generally

30:14

speaking , good things for cow . That's a good thing for the cows

30:16

um welfare and health too

30:18

. So there's a few , a few

30:20

examples of how you might improve the

30:22

lives of cows treat them

30:24

with the respect they deserve definitely

30:27

, and you've made some great points there , so you're

30:30

probably aware .

30:31

A major issue for agriculture

30:33

is actually attracting new

30:35

entrants to the industry . You know we've got

30:38

aging farming population um

30:40

how would you you know what's your

30:43

input on this ? How do we do this ?

30:45

yeah , I mean farming is is an incredibly

30:48

exciting industry to be in , and I don't think it's always

30:50

been viewed like that in in my lifetime , you

30:53

know , perhaps there was a time when if you're a dairy farmer

30:55

, you in this country , it was just because

30:57

you , you were expected to be , because your dad was

30:59

a dairy farmer and probably your granddad was

31:01

a dairy farmer , and it's just your turn . It

31:04

needs to be a lifestyle choice and

31:06

it can be a lifestyle choice , and

31:08

I think there's better opportunities for new entrants

31:10

into dairy in this , in

31:12

this country , emulating what happens

31:14

in New Zealand , really , which where if you're

31:17

a dairy farmer , because you've chosen to be a dairy farmer

31:19

, and it's a very good choice to be a dairy farmer

31:21

, because you're working with cows

31:23

, which is an honor , you're working outside

31:26

, which is a pleasure , every

31:28

day is different , you are using

31:30

your brain all the time . It's

31:33

an incredibly practical job and

31:35

it should , if it's done well

31:38

, be financially rewarding , so you can have

31:40

a really good lifestyle as well , and

31:42

so we need to speak it up . We

31:44

need to talk it up being a farmer

31:46

should be a choice and

31:48

it's a good choice . Unfortunately , in this

31:51

country , farmers get a bad rap and

31:53

you go abroad even to it doesn't need to be to

31:55

New Zealand if you go to the Netherlands you walk

31:57

off the airplane and what

32:00

do you see ? You see pictures of windmills , tulips

32:02

and dairy cows and they've got pride

32:04

in their dairy farmers and their agriculture

32:07

and I just wish some of that pride existed

32:10

in Britain a little bit more , because

32:12

it's sometimes a little bit depressing to

32:14

feel like you're the enemy of the state as

32:17

a farmer in Great Britain , and I think

32:19

that's sad .

32:20

We could do with some money from the government to

32:22

really push our industry forward

32:24

, couldn't we ?

32:26

yeah , money , but just just having

32:28

pride in farming and

32:30

farmers , you know just just the

32:32

right attitude and words , rather than necessarily

32:35

, um , like

32:38

I say , just just talking the industry down and

32:41

and this blame , this blame

32:43

for for global warming , it feeds

32:45

into that , it's .

32:46

It's really sad but then you

32:48

look at little kids and you know . Even my

32:50

daughter on the weekend said to me that

32:52

she wanted to be a farmer when she grew up , which

32:54

I thought was quite lovely

32:57

. You know , and some of her

32:59

friends are boys the same .

33:01

So hopefully change coming

33:03

well we need to nurture that and we need

33:05

to make better opportunities for people to get into

33:07

farming absolutely , because not

33:09

all of us are from farm backgrounds , are we ? no

33:12

, no , and

33:14

I don't know this . I don't know . A quick answer to

33:16

that , rebecca . Um , I

33:18

do see more new entrants into dairy

33:21

farming because perhaps farmers who

33:23

are retiring may retain the land and become

33:25

landlords and landowners . And

33:27

this is the New Zealand model where , where , where

33:29

you don't necessarily need to be the landowner

33:31

to be a farmer and you

33:33

can start by buying a few cows

33:35

and being a share farmer and then

33:38

build up your herd and build up your equity

33:40

and eventually take on a whole

33:42

farm tenancy yourself . Um

33:44

, yeah , those , those

33:46

opportunities are starting to happen a little bit in this country

33:49

, but it's not easy .

33:49

You've got to be very , very committed to do it

33:52

so , other than cows , climate

33:54

change , attracting people

33:56

into the industry , what are other

33:59

subjects that you think are going to

34:01

be big talking points going

34:03

forward within agriculture

34:05

?

34:05

gosh . Well , those are . Those

34:11

are three big things absolutely tell us .

34:13

What can you see ?

34:15

what's on the horizon . I mean I'm fairly optimistic

34:17

. I think that farming is

34:19

becoming more of a choice now than

34:21

it would have been when I first qualified as a

34:23

vet in 1994

34:26

. Like I

34:28

say , there are greater opportunities

34:30

. I

34:39

really am loving the fact that a

34:41

lot of vets and dairy farmers are really embracing

34:43

the regenerative agriculture scene and just learning more about

34:45

the importance of farming with nature

34:48

. I'm loving that , and

34:50

that , I think , is going to grow and grow

34:52

and grow , and maybe that's the thing that will change

34:54

people's attitudes . Rebecca , I think if

34:58

we in the industry , in the agriculture industry

35:00

, can just bring people

35:03

who aren't in the industry along with

35:05

us on those journeys of understanding

35:07

more about farming with nature , then

35:10

I think

35:12

that we will see a

35:14

big shift in people's

35:17

attitudes , because the younger generation are more

35:19

aware of you know nature

35:21

and things like that yeah , yeah

35:23

, and that's all I think . That's that's what keeps

35:26

me optimistic , um , you

35:28

know , seeing the attitudes of my three children

35:30

and , like I say , late teenagers and early 20s

35:33

, um , and the importance

35:35

that they place on on the environment

35:37

and their willingness to understand a little bit more

35:40

about the truth rather than just taking

35:42

what yeah ? What they're , what they're picking

35:45

up from advertising oh

35:47

, fantastic .

35:48

Well , what a great discussion , owen , that

35:50

has been . Thank you so much

35:52

for joining me today I've

35:54

learned a lot . I was very interested

35:57

, you know , in terms of the methane understanding

35:59

that you know it does . It

36:01

does go through cycle , it doesn't just

36:03

stay there . Thank

36:06

you everyone for watching . Next

36:09

Monday at 10 am I'll be joined by

36:11

John Giles , who's a director

36:13

of ProMar UK , and

36:15

we'll be talking about the current state and

36:17

nature of the UK agri-food

36:20

market . So

36:22

that should be a good one . If you've got an interesting

36:24

topic in agriculture that

36:26

you would like to talk about , please

36:28

get in contact with me via Agricultural

36:31

Recruitment Specialist , which is wwwagrirscom

36:36

Owen . Would you like to say goodbye

36:39

?

36:40

Yes , goodbye everyone . It's been a pleasure

36:42

this morning to speak to you , Rebecca , and

36:45

thank you for the invitation .

36:46

Thanks so much , owen . Goodbye from

36:48

us , bye , bye .