0:07

Welcome to the

0:07

Alaska uncovered podcast with me

0:10

your host, Jennie Thwing

0:10

Flaming. I bring you accurate,

0:15

helpful and entertaining

0:15

information about Alaska travel,

0:19

and life in Alaska. My

0:19

occasional co host and full time

0:24

my husband, Jay and I are

0:24

committed to keeping the Alaska

0:28

uncovered podcast ad free. To do

0:28

that we need your help. If you

0:33

are enjoying this podcast, we

0:33

invite you to contribute to our

0:38

tip jar, which is the first link

0:38

in the show notes. You don't

0:43

need any accounts or anything

0:43

like that you can just do a one

0:48

time tip. Really easy. We are so

0:48

grateful for our listeners. And

0:53

we couldn't do this without you.

0:53

Thank you so much, and enjoy the

0:59

show. Hi, everyone. Jennie here again,

1:06

this episode is mostly a rewind

1:13

of one of the earliest episodes

1:13

of the podcast that Jay and I

1:17

did during National Parks week

1:17

in 2023, just a year ago, at

1:22

that point, the podcast with

1:22

just six weeks old. So it was

1:26

one of the very earliest

1:26

episodes. And Jay and I wanted

1:31

to bring this up to the front

1:31

again, because it is national

1:34

parks week. Again, National

1:34

Parks are a place people are

1:38

really excited about going in

1:38

Alaska, for very good reason.

1:42

And the information in this

1:42

episode is still excellent, and

1:48

really our best advice, so we

1:48

wanted to share it again this

1:52

year. It includes Jay sharing a

1:52

bit about his experience growing

1:58

up in the National Park Service,

1:58

and also working as an

2:01

archaeologist in Gates of the

2:01

Arctic National Park in Alaska.

2:06

We also talk about the

2:06

challenges with some of the more

2:09

remote Alaska National Parks,

2:09

and all kinds of different

2:13

details about how to visit each

2:13

one of them along with our own

2:18

personal experiences there.

2:18

Before we go to that, I wanted

2:23

to quickly recap most of the

2:23

episodes of the podcast that are

2:27

about national parks. So if

2:27

you've missed any, you can go

2:31

back and catch them. So this is

2:31

in chronological order, starting

2:36

from the beginning of the

2:36

podcast in March 2023 Up until

2:40

now. So the first one March

2:40

8 2023 That was episode four. It

2:47

is about visiting Katmai

2:47

National Park with cat my park

2:52

ranger Cara. So that is a really

2:52

fun episode all about the beers

2:57

all about the other cool things

2:57

to see in cat line. March 22,

3:01

which was episode six is this is

3:01

March 22 2023. So way back in

3:08

the feed, Glacier Bay National

3:08

Park with Ranger Matt, another

3:13

super fun episode may 17 2023,

3:13

episode 14. That is with our

3:21

friends Tom and Donna habecker,

3:21

who lived in Denali for many

3:25

years while Tom was working as a

3:25

ranger and Donna and I went to

3:29

grad school together during that

3:29

time and Fairbanks and they

3:33

share all about the park but

3:33

also about what it's like to

3:36

live and raise a family in a

3:36

remote National Park. So that's

3:41

a fun one. July 12 2023 Episode

3:41

2020 Episode 22 is about

3:49

climbing Denali the mountain

3:49

with our friend Ryan, who has

3:54

submitted Denali and talks all

3:54

about that experience and the

3:57

logistics, pretty cool episode.

3:57

And then January 17 2024. That's

4:04

episode 47. That one is all

4:04

about how to plan a trip to

4:09

Denali National Park. If you're

4:09

traveling on your own and not

4:14

with a tour group or on a cruise

4:14

tour, that can be a little bit

4:17

challenging and different from

4:17

what people expect. So that's

4:20

what that episode is about. And

4:20

finally, February 21 2024

4:26

Episode 54 is about flight seen

4:26

over Denali National Park in

4:31

landing on the reef glacier

4:31

scene Denali from the air and

4:35

that was with Cole Chambers from

4:35

Ketu aviation. One more I just

4:39

wanted to let you know a very

4:39

soon on May 15. We will have an

4:45

episode about Wrangell St. Elias

4:45

National Park and the town of

4:50

McCarthy with Avery who is a

4:50

guide there and grew up in

4:55

McCarthy so that is going to be

4:55

a super fun episode. And I can't

4:59

wait to share it with you. So

4:59

with that Happy National Parks

5:03

week, and enjoy the episode. In

5:03

today's episode, Jay and I are

5:09

talking all about the national

5:09

parks in Alaska. Jay and I

5:13

actually met in an Alaska

5:13

National Park, Klondike Gold

5:16

Rush National Historic Park,

5:16

which is in Skagway, which

5:20

basically is the town of

5:20

Skagway. And Jay has also worked

5:24

in gates, the Arctic National

5:24

Park as an archaeologist for

5:27

three seasons. He also grew up

5:27

in Yellowstone. So he is a child

5:33

of the National Park Service as

5:33

well. Today, we're going to

5:36

share about Alaska parks in

5:36

general, some tips about

5:40

visiting and about some of our

5:40

personal favorite spots. So to

5:45

start us off, Jay, can you share

5:45

a little bit about your personal

5:51

history with the National Park

5:51

Service and the parks in Alaska

5:55

that you've been to?

5:58

Oh, I just realized

5:58

this is my first experience as a

6:00

guest on this show. How fun.

6:05

It is fun. Yeah.

6:07

I actually feel a

6:07

little bit more on on. Like, I

6:12

have to perform a little better

6:12

than when I'm just the

6:14

occasional co host. So I want

6:14

to, I want to first say that,

6:19

yes, I grew up in the National

6:19

Park Service. And in the

6:23

National Park Service, I am what

6:23

is called a park brat, which is

6:27

a term for any child who was

6:27

raised in the Park Service, in

6:31

particular then went on to work

6:31

in the Park Service themselves.

6:35

And it's a it's a kind of a term

6:35

of endearment. But you know, it

6:38

has a little bit of a cutting

6:38

edge to it do. But it's a small

6:45

fraternity of us out there. But

6:45

yeah, so when I was in

6:51

elementary school, my folks

6:51

moved into Yellowstone Park. And

6:56

my dad was a truck driver and

6:56

worked on the road crew and

7:00

plowed snow worked in

7:00

maintenance in Yellowstone. And

7:04

so I did live in the interior of

7:04

Yellowstone and Grand village.

7:08

And we had to leave for the

7:08

winters. Because there's no

7:12

school there. There's only one

7:12

other child under 18 in the

7:16

whole area. So we would go out

7:16

into Wyoming and I would go to

7:20

school. And then when I was in

7:20

high school, my dad moved. He

7:25

eventually got a job in Mammoth

7:25

that was year round, which is

7:28

the north part of the park and I

7:28

graduated from high school up

7:31

there. And I went up to Alaska.

7:31

And eventually after graduate

7:37

school, I'd worked in the cruise

7:37

industry and a bunch of other

7:40

stuff. I ended up becoming an

7:40

archaeologist and working in the

7:44

national parks up there. And

7:44

then when we moved to Seattle, I

7:49

then did a stint working for the

7:49

regional office here in the

7:54

Pacific West and worked in a

7:54

bunch of parks out here. We

7:59

should also add that when I was

7:59

in high school, I did work in

8:02

the visitor center in

8:02

Yellowstone too. So I don't work

8:05

for the park service now. But it

8:05

has actually been about, I don't

8:09

know at least 10 years of my

8:09

life that I work directly for

8:12

the park service.

8:14

Yeah, that's a

8:14

long time. That's a lot of

8:17

history.

8:18

It is I don't even

8:18

know how many years it's been

8:21

because I've worked so many

8:21

stints in one of the things

8:24

about a park service life is

8:24

that getting a permanent full

8:27

time job is quite challenging.

8:27

It's a lot of barriers to

8:30

getting hired for that. But a

8:30

lot of folks in the park service

8:33

the majority of park employees

8:33

work out their careers in lots

8:38

of seasonal and temporary

8:38

appointments. And so it becomes

8:42

kind of a it's a flurry of

8:42

leaves blowing by you. And you

8:46

can be like, wait, wait, when

8:46

when where was I know I worked

8:49

in that part. When was that?

8:49

What was my job there? What? And

8:55

so yeah, the majority of park

8:55

employees are seasonals. And

8:58

that was that was me as well

8:58

until I work here in the region.

9:04

So how many parks have we

9:04

visited together in Alaska?

9:10

Because you've been to some I

9:10

haven't. Yeah,

9:13

so. Okay, so I

9:13

visited you when you were

9:17

working in gates. So we've both

9:17

been there. And we met in

9:22

Skagway. So we both been there

9:22

to Klondike Gold Rush. Park.

9:29

We shared the coldest

9:29

night of camping and my wife and

9:32

Denali. Yes, real

9:34

chilly. It was

9:34

in April. It was kind of

9:38

awesome. But also we had to go

9:38

home at like five in the morning

9:41

because it's so cold. I totally

9:41

remember Yeah, so we've been to

9:46

Denali together quite a few

9:46

times.

9:48

Been to wrangle seen a

9:48

lot. Yeah, we also managed to

9:52

ride along on a friend who won

9:52

the lottery to drive up the road

9:57

in your personal vehicle at the end of the year. Once that was really fun. That

10:00

was really fun.

10:02

And we've been to

10:02

Wrangell St. Elias together.

10:05

Yes. And we've

10:05

been to Kenai Fjords together.

10:09

Yes. And Sitka National

10:09

Historical Park.

10:15

You have been to

10:15

Glacier Bay. I never have.

10:19

Yeah. You have

10:19

Glacier Bay is glacier base. My

10:23

favorite.

10:26

Is you're such a fan girl.

10:28

I know. I know. I'm

10:29

really good. I'm not a

10:29

very good Park brat in that I've

10:33

never been to several of the of

10:33

the quintessential no national

10:37

parks I've never been to but

10:37

yeah, the cat my

10:40

teeth. Yes. And

10:40

I've been to Kanye. I think

10:46

neither of us have been to Kobuk

10:46

Valley, and neither of us have

10:49

been inside like clerk? No. But

10:49

I believe we've been to all the

10:56

others plus many other national

10:56

park units that don't

11:01

necessarily have that National

11:01

Park designation, which you're

11:05

going to talk about in a few

11:05

minutes. But I think that's all

11:08

of them. Yeah. Yeah. So J

11:08

speaking of that, can you tell

11:16

us a little bit well, actually,

11:16

before we get into that, I

11:20

should mention that we have

11:20

several other episodes of the

11:24

Alaska uncovered podcast that

11:24

are about specific national

11:28

parks in Alaska. And today,

11:28

we're really talking. We will

11:32

talk about some specifics, but

11:32

we are talking about Alaska

11:36

National Parks in general, which

11:36

covers a lot of territory. But

11:41

just to give you a sense, if you

11:41

want to know more about Alaska

11:44

National Parks, and you're new

11:44

to the podcast, in episode

11:49

three, one of the topics we

11:49

talked about in that episode was

11:54

Denali and specifically visiting

11:54

Denali in 2023. There are some

12:01

changes in Denali because of the

12:01

partial road closures so that we

12:04

talked about that in Episode

12:04

Four was about Katmai and all

12:09

about bears, but also more than

12:09

bears. All the other things that

12:13

are cool about Katmai and

12:13

episode six, we talked about

12:16

Glacier Bay. And Episode 10,

12:16

which was just last week was

12:22

about Skagway and we talked

12:22

about the National Historical

12:25

Park in Skagway. And then we

12:25

also have an episode coming in a

12:30

couple of weeks in three weeks.

12:30

Actually, that will be all about

12:34

Denali. Um, and then there are

12:34

some other episodes coming that

12:39

we have planned about parks. So

12:39

those are that's just a little

12:43

bit of an overview of what we've

12:43

done and covered so far. So,

12:48

Jay, can you tell us a little

12:48

bit about kind of public land in

12:54

Alaska in general? Like, why is

12:54

there so much federal land? In

12:59

Alaska? What places are the

12:59

parks in Alaska? What what is

13:05

different about it? Maybe from

13:05

the lower 48?

13:10

Yeah, so I mean, one

13:10

of the things that I actually

13:14

did I miss about living in

13:14

Alaska living down in the lower

13:17

48 now is that two thirds of

13:17

Alaska is managed by the federal

13:21

government and of the remaining

13:21

1/3, a big chunk of it is public

13:25

land, owned by the state. So

13:25

there's a lot of open spaces to

13:30

kind of have your, you know, a

13:30

lot of freedom to explore and,

13:36

and stuff like that, where, you

13:36

know, the Labour Party is mostly

13:40

privately owned. But it's kind

13:40

of interesting, you know,

13:43

Alaska. First of all, I should

13:43

just say, I'm not an expert on

13:46

this topic. And so whatever I

13:46

say, this is for your

13:50

entertainment value only. Yes, I

13:53

know, you're not

13:53

specifically speaking as a

13:55

representative of the Park

13:55

Service or anything like that.

13:58

Just hearing your perspective. Yeah.

14:00

I no longer work with

14:00

the Park Service. But, you know,

14:03

it's funny. I, I know a little

14:03

bit, but more probably mostly

14:07

just enough to get myself in

14:07

trouble with this. But this is

14:10

what I know of. Alaska has a

14:10

couple of older national parks,

14:16

Glacier Bay and Denali, which

14:16

were, you know, their 100 year

14:21

old parks and from the 1920s,

14:21

but most of the Alaska National

14:26

park units were actually formed

14:26

by a law passed in 1980 called a

14:34

nilka. The Alaska National

14:34

Interest Land Claims Settlement

14:38

Act, who I think so anyways,

14:38

Anelka. And a little bit by the

14:45

1971 law angkasa, the Alaska

14:45

Native Claims Settlement Act,

14:51

you know, Alaska was purchased

14:51

from the Russian government, and

14:54

a lot of its public land was not

14:54

settled as to who owned it, you

14:59

know, there were Your tribal,

14:59

indigenous claims on the land,

15:05

there were a few private owners,

15:05

but most of the land was was

15:09

fairly unsettled and fairly

15:09

inhospitable. So there wasn't a

15:15

lot of really well established

15:15

ownership outside of some of the

15:19

gold fields. And so the legal

15:19

nature of all that was still up

15:26

in the air when people wanted to

15:26

develop the petroleum resources

15:32

on the North Slope. And so that

15:32

was a big barrier to that. And

15:36

in order to allow the oil

15:36

pipeline to be built, and that

15:43

to happen, those two laws were

15:43

critical to settle who owned

15:48

what pieces of land. And there's

15:48

a lot of controversy and a lot

15:52

of history in those two acts.

15:52

You could spend your whole life

15:56

setting those definitely, and

15:56

still have room. So but a lot of

16:03

national park units were set up

16:03

in that period of time. So

16:06

Alaska also has some non

16:06

National Park, public lands,

16:11

there's a big a two big national

16:11

forest, that's the Tongass and

16:16

that you Yeah. And there's a

16:16

bunch of wildlife refuges. Those

16:21

are. So national forests are

16:21

managed by the National Forest

16:24

Service, which is part of the

16:24

Department of Agriculture. And

16:27

then the Department of Interior

16:27

includes the US Fish and

16:32

Wildlife Service, and they have

16:32

some national wildlife refuges.

16:38

But the majority are managed by

16:38

the Park Service. And I want to

16:41

bring up here a really common

16:41

misconception that I see on the

16:48

internet in general. Jenny, you

16:48

I feel like we've you've seen a

16:52

lot of these articles to where

16:52

someone lists like, what I don't

16:57

even remember how many are named

16:57

National Parks in Alaska or in

17:02

the list. There's eight national

17:02

parks. Yeah, yeah. So So here's

17:09

the thing is having worked and

17:09

lived in the National Park

17:13

Service almost my whole career.

17:13

There are, there's no real

17:17

distinction between what is and

17:17

isn't a national park within the

17:20

National Park Service Unit. And

17:20

that includes a lot of things

17:25

that aren't named National Park.

17:25

So I, I want to just take a

17:30

moment to nerd out on public

17:30

land types. For a second, I

17:34

think it is kind of irrelevant.

17:34

And yeah, I hear folks who have

17:38

like a bucket list, and they

17:38

have like, I'm gonna visit all

17:41

the national parks. And then

17:41

when I hear them, listen,

17:43

they're missing things that I think are really important. I realized it's because the name

17:45

doesn't include National Park. I

17:50

think of it like this, if

17:50

someone was telling you the best

17:54

peaks to climb in the country.

17:54

And then you said, Oh, but what

17:58

about Denali? Or what about

17:58

Mount Rainier, like, well, those

18:02

aren't peaks, those are mounts,

18:02

I'm talking about Pikes Peak,

18:05

you know, like, those are just

18:05

naming differences. And

18:09

thoroughly, they'll they'll have

18:09

something to do with the history

18:14

of that mountain. And they might

18:14

even tell you a little something

18:17

about it. But they don't

18:17

necessarily imply some sort of

18:20

hierarchy, or that they're even,

18:20

you know, they're all things we

18:26

call mountains. So in in Alaska

18:26

in particular, this gets a

18:29

little complicated, but there

18:29

are national historic areas,

18:35

national monuments, national

18:35

parks National Park and

18:38

preserves national preserves,

18:38

but not National Park. So

18:43

there's just a quick rattle off

18:43

a list are the illusions

18:47

national historic area, janiak

18:47

chick National Monument, the leg

18:52

neck and wild river cruise and

18:52

certain National Monument Denali

18:56

National Park gates the Arctic

18:56

National Park and Preserve

19:00

Glacier Bay National Park.

19:00

Katmai National Park Kenai

19:05

Fjords is a national park

19:05

Klondike is a National Historic

19:08

Park, Coburg valleys and

19:08

National Park. Lake Clark is a

19:13

national park and then there is

19:13

no attack National Preserve sic

19:17

National Historic Park wrangle

19:17

and Yukon Charley National

19:23

Preserve the Park Service would

19:23

consider all of those national

19:27

parks, they would call them all

19:27

parks. Right? They wouldn't

19:32

necessarily in the end, the

19:32

thing about national parks is

19:35

each one that's a is created by

19:35

its own act of Congress, except

19:41

for national monuments, which

19:41

I'll talk about in a second but

19:45

and those will govern a lot of

19:45

the rules what is being what has

19:49

been called out as the

19:49

exceptional thing about this

19:52

area. What are we prioritizing,

19:52

but they're all managed under

19:56

the larger rubric the National

19:56

Park Service to preserve

19:59

unimpeded did for the the

19:59

benefit enjoyment of the people,

20:04

you know these areas? Yeah. So I

20:04

don't I don't want people to

20:10

miss and say like, I want to go

20:10

to these eight national parks

20:13

because those will be the best

20:13

thing. And the other things,

20:21

other types of parks. A lot of

20:21

times, it just means that they

20:25

came later. So the original

20:25

national parks are, you know,

20:29

100 years ago, when the National

20:29

Park Service was new, they were

20:32

all just called National Parks

20:32

pretty much as time went on,

20:36

they got more creative with

20:36

naming. So calling something a

20:40

national, you know, historic

20:40

landscape or calling something a

20:46

National Seashore, that kind of

20:46

thing was really a later

20:50

development. The only

20:50

distinction I'll make is that

20:53

national monuments are quite

20:53

different. They are created by

20:58

act of the President, they're

20:58

the the Antiquities Act 1906

21:03

gives the the president the

21:03

right to with the stroke of a

21:07

pen create a national monument,

21:07

and also means that they're a

21:10

little more tenuous, because

21:10

another president could take

21:13

them away. So they're not it

21:13

written into law, the way that

21:19

all the other park units are.

21:19

Yeah, sometimes national

21:24

monuments can also be

21:24

administered by another unit

21:26

like National Mount St. Helens,

21:26

is a national monument after the

21:33

volcano, but it was his national

21:33

forest before. So it's run by

21:37

the National Forest Service, but

21:37

almost all the national

21:40

monuments are managed by the

21:40

National Parks. Yeah, I know,

21:43

that's a lot about my titles.

21:43

But I just don't want people to

21:49

think that, you know, the,

21:49

there's only these eighth grade

21:53

places and the rest are second

21:53

tiers. There. Yeah,

21:57

I'm really glad

21:57

you talked about that, Jay. So

22:00

if if I were to from someone who

22:00

doesn't have the same deep

22:05

knowledge about those structures

22:05

that you do, were to try to

22:10

summarize that or you give an

22:10

example of it? Would it be like

22:14

seeing, for example, gates to

22:14

the Arctic National Park, which

22:19

is does have that National Parks

22:19

designation. And as a place

22:24

we've both been to you comparing

22:24

that to something like Yukon,

22:29

Charlie Rivers National

22:29

Preserve, which is another place

22:33

we've been that's very remote

22:33

and hard to get to. But it isn't

22:38

any less interesting or unique,

22:38

really, then Gates of the

22:44

Arctic, and it's in a similar? I

22:44

mean, it's very different, but

22:49

also sort of in a similar part

22:49

of interior kind of this our sub

22:55

Arctic Arctic area with that, is

22:55

that kind of getting at what

22:59

you're saying,

23:00

maybe the best example

23:00

might be co buck and no attacks

23:04

a co bug Valina. Yeah. National

23:04

Preserve, are very close to each

23:08

other. The no attack rivers

23:08

there in the west part of the

23:13

Brooks Range, really remote

23:13

places. I mean, really remote,

23:18

no matter how bad country you

23:18

think you've ever been. This is

23:22

this is more so. Yeah. But to be

23:22

honest, there isn't really any,

23:26

you know, Kobach is a national

23:26

park. No attack is a preserve.

23:32

They're not that different.

23:32

Right. It's just a it's just a

23:36

naming convention and politics

23:36

and stuff. So anyway, I know

23:41

that's a small thing, but it

23:41

always it always rankles me a

23:43

little bit when I see that I'm

23:43

like, I feel like the some of

23:46

the non named parks are getting

23:46

disrespected.

23:51

Yeah, I know

23:51

what you mean. Yeah. What about

23:54

no attack? No attack is so cool.

23:57

And you know, some of

23:57

these, like wild rivers and

24:00

stuff, too, are really quite

24:00

amazing. So yeah, I think that's

24:07

that's probably enough detail

24:07

about national parks in their

24:11

names. Yeah,

24:13

that's good,

24:13

though. Thank you. I will just

24:17

add, before we move on, I'm

24:17

thinking especially about

24:20

Skagway and Sitka that have

24:20

national historic parks that we

24:24

both been to in Alaska. And and

24:24

those are some of the coolest

24:30

things that some of the most

24:30

wonderful places I've been to in

24:33

Alaska, especially from, like a

24:33

history kind of standpoint. I

24:38

mean, they're just they're both

24:38

really different from each

24:40

other. And super interesting. So

24:40

definitely if you're going to

24:45

Sitka or Skyway don't don't miss

24:45

those places that really cool.

24:49

Yeah. Oh, that also reminds me

24:49

that when I was mentioning the

24:54

previous episodes of the

24:54

podcast, where we talked about

24:58

parks in episode nine mine,

24:58

which was just a couple of weeks

25:01

ago, in our episode with

25:01

Scotland Myrin. He talked quite

25:05

a bit about Wrangell St. Elias

25:05

in that episode, even though

25:08

that's not the title of the

25:08

episode, so I wanted to make

25:13

sure to mention that also. Okay,

25:13

so, Jay, thinking about Alaska's

25:20

national parks, I was thinking

25:20

it'd be fun for us to talk a

25:25

little bit about some of the

25:25

things that make them really

25:28

wonderful places to visit in

25:28

Alaska. And of course, they're

25:32

very different. Some of them are

25:32

easier to get to us, some of

25:35

them are harder to get to. But

25:35

what would you say in general,

25:39

are some of the benefits of

25:39

visiting a national park in

25:43

Alaska?

25:46

Well, I'm biased, I'm

25:46

gonna say the National Park

25:48

Service. Yeah. And the reason

25:48

I'm gonna say that is not just

25:52

to butter up my former co

25:52

workers, it's because I think

25:56

that the National Park Service,

25:56

Alaska, its public lands, and

26:00

Alaska land in general, it's

26:00

pretty difficult to visit, and

26:04

the Park Service has done a

26:04

really good job of providing

26:09

some things that visitors really

26:09

need without providing some that

26:13

they don't. National Park

26:13

Service doesn't feel it's

26:16

necessary to provide fudge

26:16

shops.

26:20

Really, I feel

26:20

like NPS Fudd could be a really

26:23

big hit.

26:23

I buy it. I'm not

26:23

gonna Yeah, yeah. You know, a

26:26

lot of the things that are that

26:26

appear in visitor areas that

26:29

aren't necessarily required are

26:29

not necessary. But the Park

26:33

Service has made sure that there

26:33

are good maps, relatively good

26:37

maps of all the national parks

26:37

and information is available

26:41

[email protected] And the really

26:41

excellent new NPS app. Yeah, I

26:48

feel like that makes a big

26:48

difference. And the Park Service

26:51

has a mission about getting that

26:51

information out there. So I

26:57

think that's really an end,

26:57

they're going to provide

27:00

structured hiking. What about

27:00

you, what do you think?

27:06

Well, I

27:06

definitely agree with what you

27:08

said about the resources and

27:08

infrastructure of the Park

27:12

Service, around giving, you

27:12

know, really excellent

27:15

information and being having

27:15

that be their mission. Um, I

27:21

would say that, in addition to

27:21

that, you sort of mentioned like

27:28

having hiking trails. And in,

27:28

there are some really amazing

27:34

hikes in Alaska's national parks

27:34

there, there's lots of space

27:38

where there aren't hiking

27:38

trails, but where there are,

27:42

those are some really wonderful

27:42

trails and hiking is free. So

27:46

Alaska can be an expensive

27:46

destination, and going for a

27:49

hike in a national park doesn't

27:49

cost anything. And that is

27:55

pretty cool. Some Alaska parks

27:55

charge an entrance fee, but many

28:01

of them do not, actually. So

28:01

even that barrier is not there

28:05

for many parks. And I think the

28:05

other thing is, if you are going

28:12

to camp on your trip to Alaska,

28:12

Alaska's national parks have

28:17

some of the best tent camping

28:17

situations in Alaska, if you're

28:22

in an RV, there are other places

28:22

that are also pretty amazing.

28:26

But when I think about the best

28:26

places to pitch a tent in

28:29

Alaska, that I've personally

28:29

experienced, they're nearly all

28:34

in national parks. So those are,

28:34

those are some of the other

28:39

things that come come to mind.

28:39

Yeah,

28:44

I will say that the

28:44

camping in national parks tends

28:47

to be a bargain. Always. Yep.

28:47

usually cheaper than state parks

28:54

nearby. Yes. You know, I feel

28:54

like that's a if you have an

29:00

option to tent camp in the

29:00

National Park, do it. Yes.

29:04

So like, for

29:04

example, in Katmai, the Lodge

29:09

which you have to win a lottery

29:09

to get into two years in advance

29:15

is $900 a night. And the

29:15

campground is $12. Just as an

29:23

example of that. And also in

29:23

Glacier Bay and wrinkles. St.

29:31

Elias campaign is free. So

29:31

that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's

29:36

not common, actually.

29:38

No, it's not.

29:39

I will say to you that

29:39

they're having worked in fi

29:42

collections in national parks. I

29:42

know that a lot of folks are

29:45

frustrated paying an admissions

29:45

fee or to come through the gate

29:49

or for some of the fees, which

29:49

is, again, as Jennie said a lot

29:54

of national parks don't charge

29:54

any fee whatsoever. They

29:56

actually have to get permission

29:56

from Congress to do so. Most

30:00

that money does not go to the

30:00

National Park Service. Actually,

30:02

it goes into the general fund of

30:02

the of the US government. And

30:06

the fee when you do pay one

30:06

doesn't even come close to

30:10

paying for the cost of most

30:10

people's visit. So it really it

30:14

is an amazing bargain. And I

30:14

know that it still sucks to have

30:18

to fork over some money at the

30:18

gate, but you know, yeah. So,

30:23

yes. So let's

30:23

talk about challenges a little

30:28

bit. What are some of the

30:28

biggest challenges from your

30:32

perspective about visiting

30:32

Alaska as parks?

30:37

There are a lot,

30:37

actually, yeah. You vary a

30:41

tremendous amount based on the

30:41

park itself. And this is one of

30:45

the things that like folks who

30:45

are doing bucket lists, visits,

30:48

for example, they're like, I'm gonna visit all the name national parks and you want to

30:50

get a co buck. Like, oh, I only

30:53

have two left. You could spend a

30:53

majority of your summer getting

30:59

to some of the Alaskan national

30:59

parks just basically, you know,

31:04

getting there. So getting there

31:04

is not always easy. Some of them

31:08

it's very easy actually. Denali

31:08

is very easy to get to you can

31:12

drive there on the on the road

31:12

system, you can take a train

31:15

there, take a bus into the park.

31:15

That's not too bad. The Yukon

31:21

Charlie, not so easy. You can

31:21

take a boat up the river from

31:27

right, you go I guess I'm trying

31:27

to think of even or most likely

31:32

you would fly in on a

31:32

floodplain. Same with Gates of

31:35

the Arctic, same with no attack

31:35

Kobach really, those are air

31:41

dependent. Hiking to some of

31:41

those parks, from the nearest

31:46

place you can get on commercial

31:46

air service, for example, would

31:49

take your whole whole season or

31:49

more like it is not possible to

31:54

do. So that's a challenge. Yeah,

31:54

those are a challenge that I

32:03

don't want to underestimate.

32:03

Some of the parks have a very

32:07

short season where the snow is

32:07

free and the the Brooks Range

32:14

northern Alaska parks can have a

32:14

six or eight week snow free

32:17

season. So that part of the

32:17

season will also be when the

32:23

mosquitoes have to make their

32:23

entire living and the mosquitoes

32:28

will be dense. Yeah. Like if you

32:28

think you know mosquitoes you do

32:34

not I working up there remember

32:34

wiping over and over wiping my

32:40

head net with my gloved hands to

32:40

be able to see my notebook to

32:44

take notes. Yeah, no, there i

32:48

i will say a day

32:48

that when I spent that week with

32:51

you guys on your project in

32:51

Gates, that that forever changed

32:58

my perspective on bugs and what

32:58

are bad bugs? Hey so much. No,

33:06

I've worked in I've worked in the Everglades and I'll tell you that it's nothing.

33:10

Yeah, it was it

33:10

was intense

33:12

not to be there. There

33:12

are serious there are serious

33:18

barrier and they're completely

33:18

manageable. And you can make in

33:23

most parks in Alaska, you can

33:23

make a huge difference based on

33:26

when you visit if you are not

33:26

someone and they're not that bad

33:30

everywhere by any means. But

33:30

they're they can be they can be

33:35

a real a real issue anywhere in

33:35

Alaska. I mean, we had one of

33:38

the weirdest nights of

33:38

mosquitoes with a friend of ours

33:42

at a campground near anchorage

33:42

Just out of nowhere. Yeah,

33:46

that was also

33:46

really bizarre. Yeah. So

33:49

you know, it can it

33:49

can happen anywhere and and an

33:53

early freeze can make a glorious

33:53

clearance of this guy's. And so

33:59

you know, late season can be

33:59

good. But you know, you're not

34:01

going to want to try to visit

34:01

some of these more remote parks

34:03

during the late season for the

34:03

mosquitoes because the door can

34:06

close weather wise on you and

34:06

you could be shut out. So you

34:12

know you're playing. Yeah, yeah.

34:12

And you're way more of an expert

34:20

than I am on the travel

34:20

component. I mean, what do you

34:23

think about the lodging expense?

34:23

Yeah. What do you what do you

34:29

think? Do you have anything you

34:29

want to add about that?

34:33

Yeah, I

34:33

definitely agree with everything

34:37

that you said. I think despite

34:37

what I said before about being

34:42

able to find three or very

34:42

inexpensive camping in Alaska

34:47

National Parks. Lodging that is

34:47

not camping is real expensive in

34:54

places like Denali and Seward,

34:54

which is near Kenai Fjords, and

35:02

king salmon, which is near

35:02

Katmai. So that is, I think, a

35:09

challenge, I think it's

35:09

important for people to be

35:12

prepared for that for lodging to

35:12

be very expensive, especially

35:18

for what it is. Um, so that's

35:18

one thing. And I think, you

35:24

know, earlier you were talking

35:24

about how the National Park name

35:29

is really just a naming

35:29

convention. And from the

35:32

perspective of an insider in the

35:32

Park Service, that isn't

35:36

necessarily different from a

35:36

wild river or a National

35:39

Preserve. But you know, that I

35:39

hope people play on their trips

35:45

to Alaska, and I've had several

35:45

clients who were definitely

35:50

wanting to go to the eight parks

35:50

with the National Park

35:54

designation, to complete the

35:54

list of 63. And I know there are

36:00

way more but you know, from,

36:00

from my clients perspective, and

36:05

I think the biggest challenge,

36:05

especially for folks trying to

36:09

go to a lot of remote parks in

36:09

one trip, is it, it really makes

36:15

the trip extremely complicated

36:15

and very dependent on weather.

36:20

So, again, if that's something

36:20

that you want to do as a

36:24

traveler, just really think

36:24

about giving yourself as much

36:29

time as possible, and lots of

36:29

extra time in between parks to

36:34

allow for things like weather

36:34

delays, right.

36:39

And I think what I

36:39

heard you saying to you about

36:41

lodging is that if you're going

36:41

to be a if you want to use

36:46

lodging like hotels, lodges,

36:46

etc, you should make that plan

36:51

far in advance. Yes,

36:54

yes, I would say

36:54

for national parks, except for

36:57

Glacier Bay, you really need to

36:57

be planning your trip a year

37:02

ahead of time. Denali, like,

37:02

like, for example, where we are

37:07

recording this in April of 2023.

37:07

And there are some dates where

37:12

there is still lodging available

37:12

in Denali, especially if you

37:16

drive there, as opposed to

37:16

taking the train because you can

37:19

stay a little further away from

37:19

the park. If you do that. Um,

37:24

but there are lots of days that

37:24

are that are completely booked

37:28

up, or very close to that. So

37:28

um, yeah, I think planning and

37:34

for these remote parks, you

37:34

really need to plan a year in

37:39

advance, or at least six to nine

37:39

months, kind of the more remote

37:45

The earlier you need to plan. I

37:45

think as what I would say, and

37:50

after the break, we'll get back

37:50

we'll get into kind of which

37:54

parts are the most remote and,

37:54

and that kind of thing. But I

37:57

think that's what I would say

37:57

about the the challenges with

38:01

planning.

38:03

I just want to take a

38:03

moment to say that I applaud

38:07

anyone who has a goal of

38:07

visiting all the national parks.

38:11

I just want to add on that for

38:11

extra credit. You should think

38:16

about including as many of the

38:16

other 340. Yes, are not named

38:21

National Park in the National

38:21

Park System. Yes, there's over

38:25

400 units. And some of them are

38:25

absolutely mind blowing. And

38:29

don't rule those out. Just

38:29

because of their name. I totally

38:34

agree with that. 63 named

38:34

National Parks is a really great

38:37

life goal.

38:39

Yes, I agree. I

38:39

think it's really cool. And I

38:42

sometimes think I would like to

38:42

take it on to you. But I haven't

38:45

given it to that yet. All right,

38:45

we're gonna take a short break.

38:50

And when we come back, we're

38:50

going to talk about the

38:54

different types of parks based

38:54

on how remote they are in

38:58

Alaska, and talk about some of

38:58

our personal favorites. So we'll

39:02

be back soon. Hi, everyone,

39:02

Jennie here. I hope you're

39:08

enjoying this episode so far. If

39:08

you're listening in real time in

39:12

April 2024, and you're planning

39:12

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39:17

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39:17

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39:21

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39:21

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39:25

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39:25

like more help. Follow the link

39:28

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39:28

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39:31

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39:31

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39:36

Take my free four question quiz

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39:41

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39:44

trip. The link to that is in the

39:44

show notes too. All right, back

39:48

to the show. And we're back and

39:48

in today's episode to honor

39:54

national parks week. Jay and I

39:54

are sharing a bit about the

39:58

Alaska National Parks Which is

39:58

something that we both have

40:02

quite a bit of experience with,

40:02

in different ways.

40:07

So, Jenny, I know you

40:07

have helped coach a lot of

40:11

people with visiting Alaska

40:11

National Parks in particular

40:15

folks who are looking for the

40:15

named National Parks. Yep. I

40:20

have heard you discuss this as

40:20

the there being three categories

40:27

broadly of Alaska National

40:27

Parks. Can you share those with

40:32

our listeners?

40:34

Sure, yes. So

40:34

for this section, we're just

40:38

talking about those eight parks

40:38

with the named designation of

40:43

National Park, even though the

40:43

others, as Jay said earlier in

40:46

the episode are really important

40:46

to consider. But if we did this

40:50

for every single one of those,

40:50

that would be a little

40:54

overwhelming and make this

40:54

podcast way too long. So yeah,

40:59

so I am going to keep it to that

40:59

for the most part, although I

41:02

may mention some of the others

41:02

when it fits in. So yeah, Jay, I

41:07

kind of put them in three

41:07

buckets, if you will. One is the

41:12

ones that are accessible by road

41:12

and have hotels and or services

41:19

of some kind. The second is ones

41:19

that are hard to get to you, but

41:25

do have some kind of services.

41:25

And then the third is what I

41:30

call the really remote parks,

41:30

the ones with no services of any

41:34

kind, and off the road system

41:34

that you'd be getting to in a

41:39

small plane. So yeah, I think

41:39

I'll just share a few details

41:45

about each of those buckets and

41:45

which parks go in those buckets.

41:49

For the first one, which is the

41:49

ones accessible by road and have

41:53

hotels and services. That would

41:53

be three Denali, Kenai Fjords

41:59

and Wrangell St. Elias Wrangell.

41:59

St. Elias has a little bit of a

42:03

question mark if it fits in that

42:03

bucket, because while you can

42:06

get there by road, most rental

42:06

car companies will not allow you

42:11

to drive on that road because

42:11

it's very remote and gravel. I

42:16

will tell you that it's not a

42:16

particularly scary road to

42:20

drive. It's just remote and

42:20

gravel, so it's really slow. Um,

42:25

so for those three parks, if

42:25

it's a little more

42:29

straightforward, you can drive

42:29

there, Denali and Kenai Fjords

42:33

you can also take the Alaska

42:33

railroad to all three of those

42:37

have lodges or hotels that are

42:37

in the basic area. Um, and they

42:46

have things like restaurants,

42:46

and that sort of thing. Wrangell

42:52

St. Elias doesn't have a lot of

42:52

restaurants, but it does have a

42:55

couple. It doesn't really have a

42:55

store, but it has hotels,

42:59

restaurants, there is no cell

42:59

service. They're on Kenai Fjords

43:04

in Denali, as far as whether or

43:04

not their cell service kind of

43:07

depends on exactly where you are

43:07

in the park. So that's kind of a

43:12

summary of the first bucket. The

43:12

second bucket is the ones that

43:18

are hard to get to but still

43:18

have some services. So I put

43:22

three parks in that category as

43:22

well and that would be Glacier

43:26

Bay Katmai and sort of Lake

43:26

clerk. Um, and in those three,

43:33

you're going to be taking a

43:33

plane or boat to get there.

43:38

Glacier Bay is a little funky

43:38

because 95% of people visit

43:43

Glacier Bay on cruise ships. But

43:43

if you go on your own, you'll

43:47

still be getting there by boat

43:47

or small plane. These are ones

43:53

if you're going to Glacier Bay

43:53

on a cruise cruises are one of

43:56

those things that you can plan.

43:56

Later, there's lots of

44:00

availability for cruises that go

44:00

to Glacier Bay now in April for

44:05

the summer 2020 free. There are

44:05

some nights available at the

44:09

lodge so that one you don't have

44:09

to plan quite as far ahead. Pat

44:14

my you have to plan far ahead.

44:14

The campground opens for

44:19

reservations in early January

44:19

and books up for the whole

44:23

summer within five minutes. So

44:23

you definitely want to prepare

44:28

ahead for that there's a lottery

44:28

two years ahead of time for the

44:32

lodge for day trips from

44:32

Anchorage into Katmai. That's

44:36

also a good one to plan at least

44:36

by the fall for that coming that

44:41

coming summer. In late Clarke

44:41

has plane service that goes in

44:47

their small plane service. There

44:47

are some lodges you can stay at

44:51

that one you really need to plan

44:51

about a year ahead of time. In

44:56

some cases you might be able to

44:56

find dates later but you want to

44:59

book that one As soon as

44:59

possible to because you're going

45:02

to be looking at remote lodges

45:02

for Lake Clark. And then

45:06

finally, you know, as you and I

45:06

know, Gates of the Arctic and

45:11

Kobuk Valley, they're very, very

45:11

remote. The only way really to

45:17

get in there is in a small

45:17

charter plane, there is no

45:20

scheduled small plane service

45:20

into those parks, there are no

45:25

trails, there are no services.

45:25

So if you want to go to either

45:31

of those parks, you need to plan

45:31

really far ahead. And like a

45:35

year, and there's two ways to do

45:35

it, you can either do a fly in

45:40

trip where you can land and walk

45:40

around, or you can do a

45:45

backpacking or rafting trip,

45:45

with a guide. And those are kind

45:51

of really the only practical

45:51

ways to get to those parks. So

45:58

that would be kind of my summary

45:58

about the different buckets and

46:02

how to get there.

46:04

I think that's really helpful. And to be honest, it applies to the to the other

46:06

national park units as well,

46:09

they all would fit into one of

46:09

those buckets. Yeah. Non named

46:12

national parks would be yes.

46:12

Into the more remote ones and

46:16

less than kind of a random

46:16

question for you. If someone's

46:22

trying to chain together a lot

46:22

of national park visits, how

46:27

many can they really? I mean,

46:27

how many could they

46:29

realistically get in a single

46:29

visit? Do you think? Well,

46:34

it's a great

46:34

question, because I've had

46:36

clients who've done all of them

46:36

in one trip to Alaska. Yeah. Um,

46:43

it's all about time, and money.

46:43

So if you have, I would say, if

46:50

you want to go to all of these

46:50

parks, in one trip to Alaska,

46:55

you're looking at a minimum of a

46:55

one month trip. In a month,

47:02

even, that's going to be a lot

47:02

of running around. It's going to

47:05

be a lot of small planes, and

47:05

hiking and cars and boats, and

47:10

just all kinds of things. But it

47:10

can be done if you're really

47:14

determined. Personally, I think

47:14

it's better, especially if you

47:18

live on the West Coast. And it's

47:18

easy, easier for you to get to

47:22

Alaska, meaning the flights are

47:22

shorter and less expensive. Then

47:28

I think it's really nice to

47:28

break it up into at least two

47:35

and ideally three trips. That's

47:35

kind of my personal opinion.

47:42

Gates and Kobach Valley work

47:42

well. Together. There is an

47:47

operator in Kotzebue that does a

47:47

combo flightseeing trip. It's

47:52

called Golden Eagle Outfitters

47:52

and they do a flightseeing trip

47:56

where you can land in both

47:56

parks. I have had clients who've

48:00

done that. And it's a great trip

48:00

you have to get to Kotzebue but

48:04

you can get there on Alaska

48:04

Airlines. You can count my in

48:10

Lake clerk are also ones that go

48:10

well together because you can

48:14

there's different ways to do it.

48:14

But you can fly between them go

48:17

to both of those wrinkles. St.

48:17

Elias and Denali go really well

48:22

together because they're in

48:22

Kenai Fjords because they're,

48:25

the distances are long, but they

48:25

are all driving parks. And you

48:29

could make a plan, you know, far

48:29

enough ahead that you could rent

48:33

from a small local company that

48:33

lets you rent a car you can take

48:37

to wrinkle St. Elias, Glacier

48:37

Bay, kind of I think that really

48:42

needs ideally to be its own

48:42

trip. either on your own or on a

48:48

cruise. So I guess in in my

48:48

ideal world, for someone who

48:54

wanted to do that, it would be

48:54

four trips, but you can

48:57

definitely do it in one if you

48:57

have the patience for that much

49:02

running around and the budget

49:02

and time to support it.

49:07

Yeah, I mean, that

49:07

sounds even one month sounds

49:11

really hectic to me.

49:13

Oh, yeah. It's

49:13

crazy. But it's not crazy. I

49:17

mean, it's just why it's just a

49:17

lot of traveling. So if you're

49:20

up for that, it's great. It's a

49:20

great adventure, that's for

49:23

sure.

49:24

Yeah, that'd be that'd

49:24

be maybe the whole summer would

49:27

be a great thing to aim for if

49:27

you wanted to do that. Yeah.

49:33

So Jay, can you

49:33

can you talk a little bit about

49:37

Park visitation numbers and sort

49:37

of humans in national parks and,

49:44

and kind of what your

49:44

perspective is on that? Yeah,

49:48

I have Unpopular

49:48

Opinions maybe. But I do think

49:52

there's no that's not exactly

49:52

true. But I do want to take a

49:56

moment to say first that I first

49:56

of all I am a huge proponent of

50:02

wild lands of wilderness of

50:02

protecting plants from

50:05

development. But sometimes, I

50:05

hear that being taken in a

50:11

direction that I think is a

50:11

little bit disrespectful. And

50:15

what I'm getting at about that

50:15

is that all this great

50:19

wilderness in Alaska has a long,

50:19

long human history. Really long.

50:25

Yeah, sites in North America,

50:25

archaeologically are in Alaska's

50:30

national parks. There are a

50:30

number of sites 13 14,000 years

50:34

old, up there. And you know, the

50:34

oldest sites in North America

50:38

are only a little bit older than

50:38

that. So human history is quite

50:43

long. And I've seen brochures

50:43

and stuff that talk about, you

50:47

know, come walk in a valley

50:47

where the mountains have no

50:51

names, and no one's ever walked

50:51

before. And yeah, that's, that's

50:53

just not true. There's a deep

50:53

human history in this place. It

50:57

just didn't leave condos. And,

50:57

you know, I just want to throw

51:02

out that I think it's the idea

51:02

of wilderness needs to not

51:08

exclude the fact that humans

51:08

were there, and that they had an

51:11

impact. You know, the folks who

51:11

live there intentionally use

51:15

fire and their hunting

51:15

techniques and stuff to make the

51:18

landscape livable for them. And

51:18

the landscape like of Gates of

51:23

the Arctic, for example, or for

51:23

one is, the humans have been

51:28

living there since before the

51:28

current biological regime. So no

51:32

black spruce have only been

51:32

there the most dominant tree in

51:36

northern central Alaska, and

51:36

they've only been around for

51:39

about 5000 years, humans have

51:39

been living in those places.

51:41

Swan point down in in the

51:41

terminal Valley is fifth, almost

51:45

15,000 years old. You know,

51:45

we're amazing. Humans have been

51:50

here three times longer there

51:50

than the than the black spruce

51:53

had been there. So yeah, it's,

51:53

it's, it's really deep. And it's

51:57

hard sometimes to picture that

51:57

people have been living on this

52:01

landscape. So long, I had the

52:01

opportunity to work on a site

52:06

near Delta Junction in Alaska.

52:06

And, you know, we were

52:09

excavating these fires were, and

52:09

all these bones. And then

52:12

suddenly, we started getting

52:12

into animals that have been

52:15

extinct in North America. And it

52:15

just blew my mind. Like, there

52:19

were people here, camping in

52:19

this spot that were eating like

52:24

camel and prehistoric antelope

52:24

that don't exist on North

52:30

America and haven't since really

52:30

since the end of the ice ages.

52:32

So I think they're just really

52:32

cool. And I would love for

52:36

people to include that in their

52:36

appreciation of the wildland and

52:41

not as something that human

52:41

history on a place, like somehow

52:46

corrupts it, you know, it's,

52:46

yeah, it's a really beautiful

52:50

part of it. So that's one thing.

52:50

Another one is another one of

52:54

those sets of, of, I want to

52:54

just take on for a moment,

52:57

you'll see a lot of things on

52:57

the internet, where people

53:00

talking about the most and least

53:00

visited national parks, in your

53:04

experience of other people.

53:04

While you're there may not track

53:09

with what you see on those.

53:09

There's a couple of reasons.

53:12

One, National Park visitation

53:12

numbers are kind of funny. So a

53:19

national park, like Yellowstone,

53:19

for example, has a pretty great

53:24

number, that people go through

53:24

the gates, they count them,

53:28

people leave, they count them.

53:28

It's very, like other national

53:32

parks, like gate to the Arctic,

53:32

have numbers. I don't remember

53:35

what their visitation numbers

53:35

say. But they count every person

53:38

who drives on the whole road to

53:38

Prudhoe Bay, most of whom never

53:42

enter the park at all. So they

53:42

count because they go through a

53:48

visitor center area at the Yukon

53:48

River, Olympic National Park,

53:54

for example, it has also really

53:54

difficult numbers, if there's a

53:58

Washington state has a there's a

53:58

US one on one highway runs

54:02

through it. And they count the

54:02

folks who drive that highway as

54:06

visiting the parks, you don't

54:06

really know whether they did or

54:09

not. So it's not quite the same,

54:09

you know, they're not apples to

54:12

apples. And so when you see the

54:12

numbers for a place, like Gates

54:17

of the Arctic example, they're

54:17

actually a lot higher than what

54:20

you would actually experience

54:20

going there. So if you want and

54:25

are looking for that really

54:25

remote, distant thing, don't

54:27

really pay attention to those

54:27

numbers. So they don't

54:30

necessarily mean that much some

54:30

parks that people are crowded

54:33

into very small areas. And in

54:33

every national park in the

54:37

entire system, you can have

54:37

solitude, you just need to step

54:44

away. I would say Denali, we had

54:44

great conversations with Donna

54:51

and Tom habecker. Which will be

54:51

in another episode. Yeah.

54:56

Three weeks if

54:56

they that episode will be live.

55:00

and they really

55:00

highlighted that if you get off

55:04

the bus in Denali, you can have

55:04

one of the most remote

55:07

experiences you can imagine in

55:07

your life, all within a very

55:12

easy, secure way to experience

55:12

it. And the same with gates.

55:16

There's nothing like the

55:16

realization that you are two or

55:19

three weeks hike from another

55:19

human being. And but then

55:25

there's something like Glacier

55:25

Bay journey. I haven't been

55:27

there. I know you have. But you

55:27

know that the main way to visit

55:31

Glacier Bay is onboard a cruise

55:31

ship, which is not an

55:34

isolated. No.

55:34

No.

55:38

So the numbers there

55:38

don't necessarily match up to

55:40

your experience if you went

55:40

there and camped, and what was

55:43

your experience? Camping? As far

55:43

as

55:45

well, there were

55:45

two other people staying in the

55:47

campgrounds when I was there. So

55:47

yeah, there

55:52

but what would you say

55:52

about cat my, about like, will

55:55

you it's i My impression is that

55:55

you would be around a lot of

55:59

other people all the time,

55:59

because people are quite limited

56:03

and where they go.

56:04

Yeah, Katmai was

56:04

really different, say, from

56:07

Glacier Bay, because there were

56:07

lots of people camping in

56:11

catheline. I think there's 60

56:11

people that can be in the

56:14

campground a night. Um, and

56:14

yeah, in Glacier Bay, you know,

56:22

people are a little more spread

56:22

out. And there are just so few

56:26

people, like we talked about in

56:26

the Glacier Bay episode, who are

56:30

travelling, they're not on a

56:30

cruise ship. Um, you know, it's

56:34

really just the other people

56:34

staying at the lodge and in the

56:37

campground that you see, kept my

56:37

is really busy with day trip

56:42

visitors. Um, when I was there,

56:42

it wasn't super busy, even

56:46

though it was high season

56:46

because it was really foggy. And

56:49

a lot of the flights didn't, a

56:49

lot of the flights were

56:52

canceled. But there was one day

56:52

where it was. It was raining,

56:58

but it wasn't foggy. And the

56:58

flights were able to get in.

57:01

And, yeah, there were times when

57:01

you had to wait for a couple

57:04

hours to go out on the platform

57:04

to see the bears. So that

57:08

definitely felt busy, even

57:08

though it's really not that many

57:14

people. So I think those things

57:14

do kind of illustrate what

57:17

you're talking about.

57:18

Yeah, I think that's a

57:18

that's anyway, that's just kind

57:23

of all I wanted to say about

57:23

that, I think is just that, that

57:26

if you're looking for solitude,

57:26

it's there for you. It won't

57:31

just sorting by you know, sort

57:31

the list by visitation number.

57:34

Pick the lowest. Yeah, it's

57:34

really it is a choose your own

57:38

adventure as to how much or how

57:38

little human contact us while

57:42

you're there. Yes. So you

57:42

mentioned hiking and you know,

57:47

I'm not a hiker. I'm always

57:47

quite open about. Yeah, hike for

57:52

money. But I think hiking is

57:52

obviously a way to get in

57:59

Yellowstone, we used to say if

57:59

you go 100 yards off the road,

58:03

you will drop 90% of the people.

58:03

Yeah. I definitely think that's

58:09

even more so in Alaska. So it's

58:09

a great way to find solitude if

58:15

you want. What do you think the

58:15

best hike is in Alaska National

58:20

Park?

58:22

Okay, it's

58:22

that's a really tough question

58:25

to answer, because I'm just

58:25

gonna say, Jay said, he's not a

58:29

hiker. Unless he's getting paid.

58:29

I can vouch that's totally true.

58:33

I, however, am a hiker. And if

58:33

you're a hiker, you've got to do

58:37

a hike in an Alaskan National

58:37

Park. It's just fantastic on

58:41

your trip. So I'm going to say

58:41

the Harding icefield trail in

58:46

Kenai Fjords National Park,

58:46

which is near Seward. It is a

58:50

really hard, hike really hard.

58:50

But you don't have to go all the

58:57

way to the end to see the

58:57

amazing views. So I think the

59:02

views are what make that hike

59:02

truly spectacular. I don't think

59:08

it's worth it. If you can't see

59:08

the view. It doesn't have to be

59:11

perfect weather, but there does

59:11

have to be good visibility. So I

59:15

think that would be my answer.

59:20

I'm going to show my ignorance for a moment here. What about Portage paths? That's

59:22

one of my favorites, but it's

59:26

that's probably in the forest,

59:26

isn't it? Yeah,

59:28

it's in Shigatse

59:28

is an awesome hike. And it's not

59:34

as difficult as partying Nice.

59:34

Cool.

59:37

Totally. Okay, so

59:37

while we're on the the

59:42

superlatives of, yes, the

59:42

national parks, yes. What do you

59:47

think is the best Visitor Center

59:47

in Alaska National Park?

59:52

Well, going back

59:52

to what you said earlier, J live

59:56

Park Service does a really good

59:56

job of sharing information and

59:59

do mean and doing

59:59

interpretation. I mean, that's

1:00:04

part of what they do. So I've

1:00:04

never been to a I've been to bad

1:00:08

visitor centers but not in

1:00:08

Alaska. All the ones I've been

1:00:11

to there are amazing. Some of

1:00:11

them are really tiny and like,

1:00:15

kind of right next to the

1:00:15

airport like the one in King

1:00:19

Salman for Katmai and the other

1:00:19

Park Service lands around King

1:00:25

Salman. But that's just because

1:00:25

of the remote location. It's

1:00:29

still pretty amazing what they

1:00:29

did with like, a tiny little

1:00:32

corner of an airplane hangar

1:00:32

basically. So they're all really

1:00:37

good, but I think I'm gonna have

1:00:37

two answers for this one one is

1:00:40

kind of sassy. But the Wrangell

1:00:40

St. Elias National Park Visitor

1:00:45

Center that is located along the

1:00:45

Richardson Highway and COPPA

1:00:48

center is not only an excellent

1:00:48

Visitor Center, but it also has

1:00:53

the best bathrooms along the

1:00:53

Richardson Highway. So I feel

1:00:57

like it needs to get some props

1:00:57

for that minor thing. Um, aside

1:01:03

from that, I think I would

1:01:03

really encourage you to if

1:01:09

you're going to Alaska to go to

1:01:09

one of the public lands

1:01:13

information centers, there's

1:01:13

four of them in Alaska. There's

1:01:17

one in toke along the Alaska

1:01:17

Highway One in Ketchikan, which

1:01:20

is a great one to go to, if

1:01:20

you're on a cruise, and one in

1:01:24

downtown Anchorage and one in

1:01:24

downtown Fairbanks. And even

1:01:28

though they are not in national

1:01:28

parks, they really get at all of

1:01:34

these things Jay has been

1:01:34

talking about around like public

1:01:38

land in Alaska in general. And

1:01:38

they're good visitor centers,

1:01:43

and they have lots of free maps

1:01:43

and lots of great information.

1:01:47

So they're just a fantastic

1:01:47

visitor resource for pretty much

1:01:51

anyone.

1:01:53

Yes, I am really glad

1:01:53

you gave them a shout out the

1:01:56

public Info Center is our unsung

1:01:56

heroes for sure. It totally

1:02:01

under utilized as resources in

1:02:01

my opinion. Yes, you're a map

1:02:04

geek, which I am definitively a

1:02:04

map geek, same amazing files of

1:02:10

maps. Yeah, spread them out on a

1:02:10

table and like, lay out and it's

1:02:16

pretty beautiful. It warms my

1:02:16

heart to spread out like 20 topo

1:02:20

maps. Yeah, and super fun. One

1:02:20

cool thing about it too, is that

1:02:26

they can kind of help guide you.

1:02:26

There are certain types of land

1:02:30

use that are not appropriate for

1:02:30

national parks. You know,

1:02:32

hunting is generally not allowed

1:02:32

in any national park property.

1:02:36

Right. And, you know, if you're

1:02:36

a hunter, or if you want to go

1:02:41

for, you know, riding dirt

1:02:41

bikes, or four wheelers, or that

1:02:44

kind of thing, National Parks

1:02:44

are not really where you want to

1:02:46

go and riding stock. Horseback

1:02:46

is, is or is not depending on

1:02:53

the national park acceptable and

1:02:53

they can really help guide you

1:02:55

and say like, oh, what you want

1:02:55

to do would be best suited to

1:02:59

this. You know, State Park, a

1:02:59

lot of national parks have a

1:03:03

state park bring around them.

1:03:03

Yeah. A lot of times that land

1:03:07

is much more open. Rule wise,

1:03:07

for better or for worse. And

1:03:12

Denali is definitely that way.

1:03:12

Yeah, we're depending on what

1:03:15

you want to do. The public lands

1:03:15

info people can really help

1:03:19

guide you, you know, and all the

1:03:19

people that I've met at a public

1:03:23

lands Info Center have been rock

1:03:23

stars. Just great.

1:03:27

Yeah,

1:03:27

absolutely. I totally agree.

1:03:30

Okay,

1:03:30

so what do you think

1:03:30

is the best tour as opposed to a

1:03:35

hike or visitors Senator Liu but

1:03:35

like best the best package to

1:03:39

her from from a park vendor in a

1:03:39

national park.

1:03:45

This is a very

1:03:45

easy one. It would be the day

1:03:48

boat tour in Glacier Bay

1:03:48

National Park. It's just

1:03:52

absolutely phenomenal. Yeah,

1:03:55

that's cool. I want to

1:03:55

give a shout out to the cheapest

1:04:00

tour in the National Park. The

1:04:00

Denali bus system.

1:04:06

Okay, the Denali

1:04:06

bus system is also really cool,

1:04:10

and it would be my number two is

1:04:10

any trip into Denali on a bus,

1:04:14

but the the Glacier Bay Deebo

1:04:14

takes that the edge for me. I

1:04:21

totally agree with you about

1:04:21

Denali. It's also very cool.

1:04:24

I'll just I'm just

1:04:24

saying that the the cost is yes.

1:04:29

It's very

1:04:29

affordable. Yeah. And by the

1:04:32

way, if since you gave me an

1:04:32

opening to talk about the Denali

1:04:35

bus tour, whether you take the

1:04:35

Narita tour or the bus, the

1:04:42

hiker bus the like hop on hop

1:04:42

off transit bus. If you are

1:04:46

going to Denali do not skip the

1:04:46

bus she were because you think

1:04:51

you don't want to go on a bus.

1:04:51

And also make sure you listen to

1:04:55

the episode we have coming up

1:04:55

with Tom and Donna in three

1:04:58

weeks about Denali it If you're

1:04:58

not if I'm not convincing you

1:05:02

that is the way to get away from

1:05:02

it all into nally and you

1:05:07

absolutely have to do it when

1:05:07

you're there. If

1:05:09

you're into national

1:05:09

parks at all, you should listen

1:05:11

to that episode because first of

1:05:11

all, he's just written a memoir

1:05:16

book that you should read. And

1:05:16

also he is an OG, the real deal.

1:05:22

Career Rangers, and he's a Yeah,

1:05:22

he's a great resource. We were

1:05:26

really able to get them on and

1:05:26

mostly talk to them because

1:05:30

Jenny and Donna worked together

1:05:30

as a school counselor. Yes. So

1:05:36

we were cashing in that

1:05:36

particular chip. Yeah. Okay,

1:05:41

well, I am also going to throw

1:05:41

out for a I'm just going to say

1:05:45

that I want to give a shout out

1:05:45

to Brooks Range aviation and

1:05:51

bottles, no business interests

1:05:51

or relationship with us. But

1:05:56

their tour fly into near the air

1:05:56

gets peeks into gate to the

1:06:02

Arctic will explode your frontal

1:06:02

lobe as Yes. Beautiful landscape

1:06:10

and rugged could look like so

1:06:10

I'm gonna give a shout out to

1:06:13

that, but it's not cheap. And it

1:06:13

is very remote. Just getting to

1:06:17

battles itself is kind of a

1:06:17

process. So yes, but I just want

1:06:22

to give those guys a shout out

1:06:22

because they do an amazing job.

1:06:26

Yes. And that

1:06:26

would be a flight scene tour of

1:06:29

gates to the Arctic. Correct?

1:06:29

Yep. Yep.

1:06:33

So Okay, last

1:06:33

superlative. I'm gonna ask you.

1:06:39

Okay. Best campsite.

1:06:43

Okay, in a

1:06:43

national park in Alaska, or

1:06:46

Alaska? Yes. Okay. I am gonna

1:06:46

allow it since this is the last

1:06:49

question. I'm gonna allow myself

1:06:49

three answers. So they have

1:06:53

they're good for different

1:06:53

reasons. So first of all,

1:06:57

probably the best campsite

1:06:57

anywhere in Alaska's national

1:07:02

parks is definitely jumbo Creek

1:07:02

in rainbow or Rainbow. Rainbow.

1:07:08

What? Wrinkles seat Elias

1:07:08

National Park. Now, this

1:07:13

campsite is a hassle to get to.

1:07:13

So that's why I'm not going to

1:07:17

give it as my only answer. It

1:07:17

is. It looks like a campground

1:07:22

when you read about it on the

1:07:22

internet, but it is not. It is a

1:07:25

backcountry camp. It's about two

1:07:25

miles from Kennecott. So to get

1:07:31

there, you have to drive or fly

1:07:31

to McCarthy, then you have to

1:07:36

get a ride out to Kennecott get

1:07:36

a backcountry permit, and then

1:07:40

hike for two miles. But once you

1:07:40

do that it's this beautiful

1:07:45

location with an amazing view of

1:07:45

the Wrangell mountains and the

1:07:49

root glacier. So it's super cool

1:07:49

if you can make that happen. And

1:07:55

then my other answer that's a

1:07:55

little out there would be

1:07:58

Bartlett Cove campground and

1:07:58

Glacier Bay. And it's kind of an

1:08:03

amazing campground because not

1:08:03

only is it free, but they

1:08:07

provide water bear proof

1:08:07

storage, you can pay to take a

1:08:13

shower in the lodge, you can do

1:08:13

your laundry in the lodge. And

1:08:18

also when you're in your tent at

1:08:18

night. If you're super lucky,

1:08:22

you might hear whales like

1:08:22

breathing in Bartlett Cove and

1:08:27

that is just really amazing. I

1:08:27

don't I don't really have words

1:08:33

for what that's like. And

1:08:33

hearing birds call it like you

1:08:39

know others see other marine

1:08:39

mammals splashing around out

1:08:42

there. It's really cool. But

1:08:42

that's also hard to get to so to

1:08:47

answer your question, Jay for

1:08:47

one that is easier to get to

1:08:50

you. I'm going to say the savage

1:08:50

river campground in Denali. You

1:08:56

can drive to it I feel like one

1:08:56

driving one has to be on the

1:09:00

list here. It's a really nice

1:09:00

alternative to Riley Creek,

1:09:05

which is at the park entrance

1:09:05

it's much quieter and smaller

1:09:09

and it's right next to the

1:09:09

savage River and there is a

1:09:12

beautiful hike you can do there

1:09:12

especially in the evening in the

1:09:16

morning the light there is just

1:09:16

stunning so I'm gonna be

1:09:21

probably my real real answer.

1:09:24

Yeah and I feel like

1:09:24

that savage river one has also

1:09:28

it has it just has a different

1:09:28

feel than rally Creek which yes

1:09:33

yeah, and Riley

1:09:33

Creek is also great but savage

1:09:36

river is just a really special

1:09:36

place I

1:09:38

think it's river opens

1:09:38

and closes 10 jet tends to be

1:09:43

open and closed later in earlier

1:09:43

respectively. Riley Creek is is

1:09:48

broader.

1:09:49

Yes, that's

1:09:49

true. Yeah, when

1:09:51

small report but the

1:09:51

sites are and other sites are

1:09:54

less developed. And I like that

1:09:54

I'm you know I'm trail hiker and

1:09:58

an off site camper. So I like

1:09:58

Yeah. But if you you know, want

1:10:03

like a perfectly groomed spot

1:10:03

for your tent or whatever, it's

1:10:09

not necessarily as good, but it

1:10:09

is a spectacular campground.

1:10:13

Yes,

1:10:14

definitely.

1:10:16

Those are pretty good answers. I'll let you I'll let you go with that.

1:10:20

Thank you. So as

1:10:20

we move towards wrapping up this

1:10:25

episode, you know, Jay, a few

1:10:25

minutes ago you were talking

1:10:29

about the importance of the

1:10:29

human experience in the national

1:10:33

parks and that these vast

1:10:33

stunning wilderness landscapes

1:10:38

have also been home to humans

1:10:38

for 1000s of years. And in

1:10:45

addition to humans who have

1:10:45

lived in, in Alaska as parks for

1:10:49

1000s of years, there are also

1:10:49

lots of humans who live in

1:10:53

Alaska's parks now, and live and

1:10:53

work there. So could you tell us

1:10:59

just a little bit about some of

1:10:59

the types of jobs people have in

1:11:05

national parks that might not be

1:11:05

visible to a visitor in the same

1:11:09

way that say Rangers are

1:11:09

visible?

1:11:14

Yeah, you know,

1:11:14

there's a lot of cachet with

1:11:16

being a ranger and and, and I

1:11:16

want to give full props to those

1:11:20

Rangers out there. There's kind

1:11:20

of two wings of people that we

1:11:23

would generally hear people

1:11:23

refer to as a ranger. One is the

1:11:26

law enforcement officer inside

1:11:26

the park service. Generally,

1:11:29

that's what people mean, if they

1:11:29

just say Ranger, that's a person

1:11:33

who has a law enforcement

1:11:33

credential, they're badged law

1:11:38

enforcement officer, they will

1:11:38

be carrying a weapon, they'll

1:11:40

have a they'll have training

1:11:40

from the federal government in

1:11:44

law enforcement. And then

1:11:44

there's the Ranger naturalist,

1:11:48

which is the person who's often

1:11:48

working at a visitor center desk

1:11:54

or, or leading hikers, that kind

1:11:54

of stuff. And that's an

1:11:59

interpretive ranger or a ranger

1:11:59

naturalist. But two thirds of

1:12:03

the people in the National Park

1:12:03

Service Work in maintenance.

1:12:06

It's, and it's the unsung

1:12:06

though, they're the unsung

1:12:09

heroes, in my opinion. And I'm

1:12:09

biased, because my father was a

1:12:13

career long maintenance worker

1:12:13

in a national park. But these

1:12:17

guys work, you know, and gals,

1:12:17

they work hard, their pay is

1:12:21

actually generally fairly low.

1:12:21

And they, you know, the joke has

1:12:26

always you get paid in sunsets.

1:12:26

And a lot of folks are seasonal

1:12:31

workers, and then they have to

1:12:31

put together work in their off

1:12:33

parts of the year. And, you

1:12:33

know, that's, that's a lot of

1:12:37

the real work that gets done is

1:12:37

by these folks. And if you're a

1:12:40

person who has seasonal

1:12:40

availability, think about it,

1:12:44

it's a great way to serve the

1:12:44

country and be in a beautiful

1:12:49

place and the environment of

1:12:49

national park employees, I like

1:12:54

a lot. And I think when if you

1:12:54

listen to Donald Tom's interview

1:12:57

in a few weeks, you'll get a

1:12:57

better feel for it. And you

1:13:00

know, they can be a little bit

1:13:00

like a small family in the

1:13:06

better and the worst way, but

1:13:06

But you know, folks are, are

1:13:10

driving trucks and cleaning the

1:13:10

campgrounds and collecting money

1:13:16

and dispatch operators, fixing

1:13:16

Road, cutting trees that are

1:13:24

about to fall on campsite, all

1:13:24

that kind of stuff. There's just

1:13:27

a lot of work that has to be

1:13:27

done in National Park. And it

1:13:30

goes, it goes kind of unnoticed.

1:13:30

And it's always a running joke

1:13:33

that like people will want to

1:13:33

add ranger to their titles for

1:13:37

the for the public recognition,

1:13:37

like, you know, I'm a garbage

1:13:39

Ranger. Yeah, I want to also add

1:13:39

just the sheer number of

1:13:46

scientists is a huge mission of

1:13:46

the National Park Service to

1:13:51

understand the national parks

1:13:51

better and, you know,

1:13:56

ornithologist and, and, you

1:13:56

know, everything from the trees,

1:14:01

the birds to the archaeological

1:14:01

history, all this stuff, there

1:14:06

are scientists in all the

1:14:06

national parks who are doing

1:14:10

amazing research and fairly

1:14:10

hidden way really so just I'd

1:14:17

love you know, if you when you

1:14:17

see stuff in the national parks,

1:14:20

you know, and just remember there are a lot of folks back there making it happen for you.

1:14:22

And and they, they love it. They

1:14:26

love their work. And, but it's

1:14:26

good for you to notice them, I

1:14:33

think sometimes.

1:14:34

Yes, absolutely.

1:14:34

So speaking of noticing and

1:14:39

thinking people who have served

1:14:39

in the National Park Service to

1:14:43

bring this episode to a close,

1:14:43

Jay and I want to honor during

1:14:48

this national parks week, the

1:14:48

friends and family that we know

1:14:53

personally, who have served in

1:14:53

the National Park Service and a

1:14:58

few of these people are rain

1:14:58

jurors, most of them have worked

1:15:03

up most of them are people

1:15:03

who've worked in maintenance or

1:15:07

in administration or are

1:15:07

scientists or have been

1:15:11

scientists for the National Park

1:15:11

Service. Yeah.

1:15:15

And we're, yeah, I

1:15:15

would love to, to and I if I

1:15:18

miss anyone, it's not

1:15:18

intentional. It's I'm, I'm just

1:15:23

sometimes kind of scatterbrained, but I'm gonna I'm gonna list off some folks

1:15:24

that that come to mind about and

1:15:28

really he was just on what he

1:15:28

will have his his episodes are

1:15:32

replayed, right. Yeah. Thanks

1:15:32

for being on and Donna habecker,

1:15:38

who will be on soon. Dan Otis,

1:15:38

who is in DC serving and that is

1:15:43

the most unsung service in the

1:15:43

National Park Service to work in

1:15:46

the DC offices.

1:15:47

So unsung. Thank

1:15:47

you, Dan.

1:15:51

For all you do, and

1:15:51

you know, maybe we'll have to

1:15:54

get him on the podcast sometime

1:15:54

too. Yeah, I think so. Alioto

1:15:58

shall also be on the podcast

1:15:58

sometime. Jeffrey sick and Julie

1:16:03

Azael. Great archaeologists up

1:16:03

in Fairbanks. Tasha Sloboda who

1:16:09

has an absolute rugged woman of

1:16:09

the wild and archaeologist Andy

1:16:17

Tremaine. Christina Jensen, who

1:16:17

died in the field and 20 years

1:16:23

ago almost now. Bird Kirstie

1:16:23

hotel my my last boss in the

1:16:31

National Park Service. And

1:16:31

fellow Park brat, I want to say

1:16:37

she comes from a distinguished

1:16:37

line of National Park Service

1:16:40

heroes. And And last but not

1:16:40

least, George Monroe, who was my

1:16:45

sort of my coach and, and the

1:16:45

role model when I was a young J.

1:16:51

He was the boat ranger in

1:16:51

Yellowstone and it really meant

1:16:54

a lot to me. So I want to thank

1:16:54

all those folks for the service

1:16:58

they've given. And

1:16:59

finally, jays,

1:16:59

family Jays parents, Ray and

1:17:04

Mary, who raised him in the Park

1:17:04

Service, and Jays sister Julie

1:17:10

and J himself. Both Julie and J

1:17:10

have both worked for the

1:17:14

National Park Service for many

1:17:14

seasons as adults. Thank you so

1:17:19

much to all of you for your

1:17:19

service to our country. And

1:17:25

thanks to all of you out there

1:17:25

for listening to Alaska

1:17:28

uncovered, if you like what you

1:17:28

heard today, we would love to

1:17:32

have you subscribe to the

1:17:32

podcast so you don't miss any

1:17:36

new episodes. They come out

1:17:36

every Wednesday. Bye for now.