0:00

My name is Alex, and I have not been in a classroom

0:02

since ninth grade. No,

0:06

no, alright,

0:09

No, it will be alright forever. No,

0:14

we are alright,

0:19

No, will be alright forever. I

0:24

have two parents who are very

0:26

very for chasing your dreams.

0:28

You know. My mom did a couple of years of college,

0:31

ultimately met my dad, and my dad kind

0:34

of started working while my mom raised

0:36

us as as children. My dad, on

0:38

the other hand, actually dropped out of high school

0:40

and helped support his own

0:43

family, like his parents and his brothers and sisters

0:45

by working for his father's company and

0:48

uh and eventually got a g e. D. And became a very

0:50

successful real estate agent. If

0:52

you've listened to my other episodes of the podcast,

0:55

you'll hear more about that story. But I want to focus

0:57

on the education part because what happened with me

1:00

is I always liked learning. I think

1:02

learning is something that I've always loved, and it's something

1:04

that I'm very very passionate about. But

1:06

I loved learning about the things I liked

1:08

more than the things I didn't like. And my

1:10

parents very much so picked up on that

1:13

towards seventh and eighth grade

1:15

when they realized I was really focusing

1:17

all of my time on learning about music

1:20

theory and how to play certain chords

1:22

and and structure and songwriting.

1:24

And I would focus so much time the

1:27

way that a doctor would focus on medical

1:29

information, or like a lawyer would focus

1:32

on studying for the bar. I

1:34

was studying for the musical bar.

1:36

I guess and uh. And halfway

1:38

through ninth grade, my parents,

1:41

you know, we had decided to move to Los Angeles

1:43

and chase my dream of being a musician,

1:45

and I transitioned from regular

1:48

classroom traditional school

1:50

I don't know if that's what it's called, into online

1:53

school, which was not by

1:55

any means successful for me.

1:58

I I'm gonna call my

2:00

mom out in a good way. She was so good

2:02

about logging in for me so that my hours

2:04

were all right. I know, Hey, I'm really sorry

2:07

pre Mavera online high school. This is the

2:09

truth. My parents were so good

2:11

about helping me be successful,

2:14

but ultimately I failed a lot of those classes,

2:16

not because I wasn't testing properly, but

2:18

because I just wasn't showing up or doing any of the

2:20

assignments. So by

2:22

the time that I actually had stopped going to

2:25

school, it was a very smooth transition

2:27

into working full time

2:29

in the music industry, and my dad kind of embedded

2:32

in my brain this idea of you can make

2:34

it happen, you know, mentality,

2:36

you have to just put in the work, and and seeing him

2:39

as a firsthand example of that was always

2:41

very easy for me to look

2:43

at and be like, oh, yeah, my dad's totally

2:46

right because he did it, you know. That

2:48

was kind of my mindset with everything. And so

2:50

here I am ninth grade kind of looking

2:53

for a new way to have a career

2:55

without having a high school diploma, and

2:57

then came my way something that's very

3:00

very special in California called the Chessie.

3:02

It is basically like the g E D on

3:05

steroids, but instead of passing

3:07

and getting like whatever the g e D Certificate

3:09

is, you actually get like a diploma equivalent

3:12

certificate. So if I wanted to, I could go to a university

3:14

afterwards. And my parents always wanting

3:16

me to have you know, that education under

3:19

my belt. They were super supportive of that,

3:21

and my fifteen to sixteen year

3:23

old girlfriend, Katie Vincent's mom

3:26

actually paid for like the books

3:28

for me to study and like all of that stuff.

3:30

So shout out Genea Vincent, big love.

3:32

You help me get my diploma, shouts Mom and Dad.

3:34

I feel like I'm winning a Grammy, but I only got

3:36

like almost diploma,

3:39

so uh, you know, and then I at

3:42

least for me, if you're a fan of me, you kind of

3:44

know where that story goes. I started posting on social

3:46

media and doing what I love and chasing

3:48

it relentlessly and not stopping

3:50

that work, and I found myself

3:52

to a place where I'm a professional in my

3:55

field of work if I even want to call

3:57

it that. I just like making music for fun and it pays

3:59

my bills. Like that's where I am. And so I

4:01

am now almost ten years deep in my profession,

4:04

with all of the experience that

4:06

I got to have and being treated as an adult

4:08

since I was fifteen, and and now

4:11

feeling like I've I'm very deeply

4:13

rooted into something that I truly love to

4:15

do, and I got to focus all that time. But

4:17

I would be remiss if I didn't say that sometimes

4:20

I wish I was, you know, getting

4:22

drunk at prom off of like some weird

4:25

mixture of everybody's parents alcohol.

4:27

Or if I said I didn't get to go to college

4:29

parties or or spring breaks,

4:32

or playing high school basketball, all of

4:34

those things. I do think about those things, and it kind

4:36

of all of the positives that came out of me

4:39

dropping out and chasing my dreams. It comes

4:41

with a lot of pros and it comes with a lot of cons. I

4:43

also look back at, you know, a lot of people who

4:45

ask me that question because I'm open about

4:48

my history with schooling, and they say, well,

4:50

should I go to school? Should I not go to school? And

4:53

I've always said, you know, other people as advice,

4:55

don't take me as the example.

4:58

And if you don't necessarily have a plan, and if

5:00

you don't necessarily know, I've always said you

5:03

should go to school, you should go to college. But

5:05

there's also now so many factors that I

5:07

never put into my brain, you

5:10

know, in terms of student loans and

5:12

and the cost of being of going to school,

5:14

and the percentage of people who actually

5:17

do the job that they went to school

5:19

for, and and a lot of people, especially my

5:21

friends, you know, they got their communications degree

5:23

and it didn't do anything for them for their job

5:26

that they're at now. It's really put it

5:28

into perspective. So that got me thinking, is

5:30

dropping out the right idea? Is

5:32

not going to college. The right idea

5:35

is staying in school because your parents want

5:37

you to a good idea And if it is or it

5:39

isn't, why is that? No?

5:43

What's up everybody? It's alex Iona here.

5:45

This is let's get into it my podcast where

5:47

we talk about a ton of different topics.

5:49

Really nothing is off the table at

5:51

this point, and we want to talk about something. It's

5:54

not the sexiest I'm not gonna lie, not the

5:56

sexiest topic, but it's very very important, especially

5:58

today we're talking about edgecation and how

6:00

important it is to go to

6:02

college and chase your dreams and

6:04

if those things don't go together, how important

6:07

it is to make the right decision on which

6:09

one you want to do. So. I have two

6:11

very very diverse guests here that

6:14

have different paths that we can

6:16

talk about and have open conversations with.

6:18

The first being a freelance

6:20

writer whose work has appeared in numerous

6:22

publications including The New York Times,

6:24

The Atlantic, Real Simple More.

6:27

But She attended Penn Law before

6:29

working several years in big law and

6:31

clerking in the Southern District of New York. She's

6:34

currently toiling away on a brand new

6:36

novel, You Guessed It it's about a law firm.

6:39

Her name is Lee McMullen Abramson.

6:41

Lee, it's very nice to meet you. I just want

6:43

to know how are you. I'm good,

6:45

Thank you so much. It's great to be here. You

6:48

guys can't see this, but Lee's got on as

6:50

she She's told me it's her daughters. I really

6:52

think it's hers, and she's just like a closeted

6:55

Frozen fanatic. They're Frozen

6:58

themed headphones. They're the cool things

7:00

I've ever seen. I'm

7:03

very happy, and you can be honest here on this podcast.

7:05

We're open. We're open and honest. The first episode I talked

7:07

about losing my virginity, so it's like nothing's

7:09

off the table. If those are yours, just

7:12

just be proud about it, you know. I

7:14

will say that I'm very happy to be wearing

7:16

them. Okay, I was glad they were available

7:19

to me and they feel good. I

7:21

like that. You've got a little bit, you know, a little

7:23

bit of ownership of those also

7:25

with me. You guys know, she's one of my closest

7:28

friends and I asked her pretty much for help on anything.

7:31

Uh, Karen or like man. She is my wisdom tree.

7:33

She is my off the clock

7:35

therapist as I'm going to call you. It's my new title

7:37

for you, because I have so many questions for you.

7:40

Karen Orleckman, how are you? I

7:42

am COVID good today? Is COVID

7:44

good? Baby? That's all we can ask

7:46

for these days. Well, we're talking about education

7:49

and both of you guys have very very different paths

7:51

in which you guys chased your ultimate

7:53

dream or you guys followed you

7:55

know, the career path that led you to where

7:57

you are, and we're gonna dive super

8:00

super deep into that. First, Lee,

8:02

you and I are going to talk about Dropouts

8:05

Handbook because you are very very experienced,

8:07

as we're gonna learn in helping people find

8:09

out how to follow their truest self, even if

8:11

it kind of diverges off of the

8:13

path that they originally were taking. And

8:15

then Karen, you and I are going to talk about what might

8:18

have been the concept of well,

8:20

if I had done this, Even for me, I have these

8:22

thoughts all the time, talking about if I had stayed

8:24

in school, if I had gone to college for something. And

8:26

then lastly, we are all going to kick it and talk

8:29

about how you can tell if the traditional

8:31

path or a new concept

8:34

of a path is right for you. We're gonna be cracking

8:36

into all of that. But before we get into that, I have

8:38

a question that I ask all of my guests and

8:41

uh and it is. It is a very very important question.

8:43

What have you been doing this week to

8:45

improve yourself? This week, I have been

8:47

and this is gonna sound crazy, because all of my

8:49

recent improvements have been about health.

8:52

This week, I'm sitting next to a dozen

8:54

of donuts, and I'm learning how to

8:57

to fully give myself the freedom

9:00

and not feel bad about doing things

9:02

that make me happy. Right now, it's a it's

9:04

a Devil's Food cake, chocolate

9:06

frosted peanut doughnut. Right now, look

9:08

at this thing. You guys can see it. It's incredible. I'm

9:10

gonna have a bite of it, while Karen says hers, But mine,

9:12

I think is important because I've been very,

9:14

very tough on myself, but I feel very

9:17

like bad, like I'm hard on myself about it. So this week

9:19

I've been focusing on the mental aspect

9:21

of saying, hey, this is okay, you

9:23

deserve a donut. If you want a donut, you deserve

9:25

a doughnut, and I'm gonna eat it. While Karen tells

9:28

me what hers is my

9:31

self improvement this week is that I'm

9:33

actually doing absolutely

9:35

nothing towards self improvement, and

9:37

so I'm giving myself a break

9:40

and just kind of to your point about the

9:42

donuts, I'm just being where

9:44

I am right now, mm hmmm

9:47

mm hmmm, because it's it's

9:49

a lot of pressure to feel like we

9:51

need to constantly be improving

9:54

ourselves because there's underneath that is

9:57

a little bit of like, I'm not okay as

9:59

I am, um, and

10:01

so this week I'm doing absolutely

10:04

nothing. Karen, You're on this podcast probably

10:06

more than anybody else other than myself, and

10:08

so you always have something great. So I'm very very

10:10

happy that you are having a human

10:12

moment and saying, hey, sometimes you don't do anything

10:15

to improve your life and that's okay,

10:17

and I like that. Now, Lee, the pressure

10:19

is kind of on because you're not on this podcast ever,

10:21

so you gotta come with something hot. I'm

10:23

just kidding, it's not it's okay if you

10:25

don't. All right, well, I'm gonna go.

10:29

I'm gonna go with the baked goods theme

10:31

here because I have actually,

10:33

um taught myself how to make pies

10:36

during quarantine I

10:39

have been making pies. I say it's

10:41

like an activity to do with the children, but

10:43

more often than not, like it becomes just me

10:46

doing it by myself. And I have

10:48

learned that the secret to a good

10:51

pie crust is vodka.

10:54

Woh is it? Just is it? Because if

10:56

you have enough vodka, then you forget how something

10:58

tastes and you're just like, okay, if

11:01

you're drunk, it doesn't matter how you

11:05

know, it's something about how it

11:08

the moisture of the flour and the butter

11:10

and makes the vodka in there and good things

11:12

happen. So it's it's

11:15

only like four tables love that. But

11:17

but but yeah, so okay,

11:20

I think I think we're going to do it. We've done berries

11:23

and peaches, and I feel

11:25

that I'm like making the most of the seasonal

11:27

fruit right now. That's good,

11:29

that's very very you know what, send one,

11:32

you can send one my way if you'd like. I'll I

11:34

can be the tester for that and we

11:36

can have so well.

11:38

I love that I'm eating donuts. Karen's

11:41

just kicking back, You're making pies. We're having a

11:43

good time. This is that's what this episode is all about.

11:45

It is about following whatever feels right,

11:47

speak of that. Let's get let's get into it. I know it's

11:50

weird that the show is called that, and we called

11:52

the show that because I say it all the time. But let's

11:54

get into it. Um, Karen, we're

11:56

gonna see you in a bit, Lee, it's time for

11:58

a little one on one. So you and I have

12:01

something in common. We both dropped out.

12:03

You went to a bit

12:05

more school than I did. You did a

12:07

little bit more, but you dropped out of your chosen

12:10

career at the time to chase another goal.

12:12

So tell me a little bit about your dropout story.

12:15

So I went to law school,

12:17

like a lot of people, because I

12:19

didn't know what I wanted to do. And

12:23

after I went right after college. And

12:26

I think of law school for a lot of people

12:28

as a socially acceptable procrastination

12:31

technique where you have

12:34

you get this degree and everyone's excited

12:36

that you're a lawyer, but um, you

12:39

actually haven't figured out what you

12:41

want to do yet. So I

12:43

really liked law school. I

12:46

found it interesting studying famous

12:49

cases and it's

12:51

a lot of human interest stories. So

12:54

but once I got to a law firm, it was

12:56

a real rude awakening it

12:58

was a lot of reviewing documents in

13:01

a conference room.

13:03

I wore these like rubber covers

13:06

over my fingers so I wouldn't get paper cuts.

13:08

I think I was in the last like fully paper

13:11

document review. I think it's all digital

13:13

now. But but it was not glamorous

13:16

and it was long hours and

13:18

I didn't feel very passionate

13:21

about the work that I was doing, so

13:24

I left the law firm. I worked for a judge,

13:26

which was wonderful. I love that

13:28

it was such interesting stories

13:30

and being in court, and I thought that was

13:33

that was wonderful. But that's that

13:35

was only a year. Uh, And

13:37

when I went back to the law firm, I started thinking

13:40

really about what I wanted to do next. I

13:42

come from a creative family. My father

13:45

is an artist and my mother's a writer, so

13:48

for me going to law school is a bit of a rebellion

13:50

against them. When I was growing

13:53

up, I thought like, why can't my parents,

13:56

you know, go to offices and wear

13:58

suits and like my friend parents

14:00

and my father was teaching

14:03

drawing classes and there

14:05

would be like nude models there, and I thought

14:07

this was literally the most embarrassing

14:09

thing that could happen to a person,

14:12

and I was like, when I grew up, I

14:14

am going to go to an office and wear

14:16

a suit and this is great. But

14:19

I really had no idea what that meant.

14:22

I feel like, I feel like

14:24

your story is so the opposite of everybody.

14:26

Like usually their parents are like, you need to go to

14:28

school and be this, and they're like, no, mom, I want

14:30

to be an artist. Your parents were literally

14:32

the opposite you. You said you might

14:35

be the first person in history who's ever rebelled against

14:37

their parents and went to more school. I don't

14:39

know if that's a thing. It's now a

14:41

thing thanks to you. Sorry, I'll let you continue.

14:44

Yeah. So I thought law school

14:46

was the answer. I wasn't going to be like my parents.

14:49

But as I as I was exploring

14:51

more, I realized that what I

14:53

loved was writing. And

14:56

there were certain aspects of law where I get to write,

14:58

but it wasn't as creative of And

15:01

actually the judge that I clerked for told

15:03

me when I was clerking, she was like, you're very

15:05

wonderful with the facts, Like I love

15:07

when you write the opinion section and the and the

15:09

and the facts section. You're good at telling the

15:11

story. And that little comment

15:14

was sort of enough to make me feel like

15:17

maybe I could try doing this. So I started.

15:20

Um, I started working

15:22

in the morning early and writing

15:24

and submitting things, and little

15:26

by little I felt like there

15:28

was something there that wasn't just my imagination.

15:32

And I also felt that looking

15:35

down the road of being a lawyer, it

15:37

wasn't it wasn't what I wanted

15:40

ultimately, and I convinced myself

15:42

that it was better to be on the bottom wrong of

15:44

the ladder that you want to be on, then

15:47

moving up to the top of the ladder you don't want

15:49

to be on. So um,

15:53

yeah, So finally, you know, I've been practicing

15:55

law for seven years. I decided

15:57

to stop and

16:00

and give it a go, and that

16:02

that's that's what happened. But I still feel like

16:04

it's it's a transition that I'm almost

16:06

still in even a number of years later.

16:09

Right, Okay, so let's let's I want

16:11

to dissect that a little bit. So, I

16:13

like, how much weight you don't give law

16:16

school, But it's a pretty heavy thing, like

16:18

as as everybody knows, like law school,

16:20

it's like years and years of study

16:23

and hard work and you're balancing social

16:26

life, you're balancing your family, you're still trying to

16:28

have fun. You're in your early to mid twenties,

16:30

You're you are spending all this

16:32

money for schooling, You're probably

16:35

going through internships and

16:37

not getting paid for things. They're being wildly

16:39

underpaid. And then most people do

16:41

that stuff so that they can eventually have a

16:43

very very nice paying job, a very

16:46

nice salary. Like you mentioned, they climb that ladder,

16:48

they get to the top of that ladder and they can go, Okay,

16:50

all of those you know, paper cuts and

16:52

the little rubber fingertips and

16:54

and sitting and being told what to do and not

16:56

really having um your opinion being

16:58

heard. It's worth it now because of this having

17:01

transitioned out of that, do you what

17:03

are your thoughts on that? Do you feel like it was a waste? Was

17:06

it worth it to you? Do you regret spending

17:08

all of that time in that school, paying

17:11

for that education, studying time

17:13

that you maybe could have been having fun,

17:16

you know, doing the quote unquote artists

17:18

things since now you are an artist. I

17:20

don't I don't regret it. I mean, the

17:23

financial piece is hard to swallow. Yeah,

17:26

that that is definitely definitely

17:28

true. But I do

17:31

feel like I was able

17:33

to take things from that experience,

17:37

even writing skills, that

17:39

that we're helpful, and

17:41

also that it's

17:43

now something that I can write about

17:46

that not everyone can write about, and that

17:48

and that's useful and

17:50

and so in

17:53

some ways, yes, I like you think about

17:55

the prom like I think, well, what if I just

17:58

started out writing, would

18:00

I be so much further along? And and

18:03

and what if that? And and I

18:05

think it's you know, you just

18:07

never know how things would

18:09

have worked out. So I try to be really,

18:12

you know, at peace with with that

18:14

decision of going to

18:16

law school and taking the really circuitous

18:18

route. But but yeah,

18:20

sometimes I think, well, what if I had done

18:22

it differently? And what was the meaning of it?

18:25

And and and you have to kind of continually

18:27

revisit that. At least I do absolutely,

18:29

And I mean I'm very very firm believer

18:32

in the concept of everything you've done,

18:34

every every decision you made, every mistake, every

18:36

success lad you exactly to where

18:38

you are, and if you wanted something change, then it

18:40

probably wouldn't lead you to where you are now.

18:42

So I don't ask that question in the terms

18:44

of thinking you did the wrong thing at all. You

18:47

obviously did the right thing, because there

18:49

are so many rewards about what you

18:51

the decision you made and writing and now UM

18:54

and I want to talk about those things you're right or

18:56

now and you're writing actually helps other lawyers

18:58

transition away from law when a not really

19:00

speaking to them the same way that it didn't really

19:02

speak to you. What made you, I

19:05

guess identify like like you said, you

19:07

know this gave you this perspective you can write about

19:09

things that nobody else has written about. What what made

19:11

you come up with that idea to say,

19:13

hey, maybe I should write in a way that

19:15

that could inspire other people to do the same

19:18

as me. So I

19:20

have a lot of lawyer friends and people

19:22

I went to law school with, and I felt

19:25

that like a lot of people were unhappy

19:27

and thinking about ways

19:30

to transition at least

19:33

out of a law firm into something

19:35

else. And you

19:37

know, I talked to a lot of people about it,

19:40

and I noticed that there were a lot of people

19:42

who we're seeing like career

19:45

counselors or are sending me to

19:47

different websites about UM

19:49

transitioning for lawyers because it's

19:51

it's not the most transferable degree,

19:55

uh that people think it necessarily

19:58

is. Because it teaches

20:00

you a lot of critical thinking. But if you want to

20:02

go into a different profession, you're

20:04

still going to have to prove yourself and and

20:07

start kind of on the low end

20:09

of that profession because you haven't had

20:11

the experience. I mean, I

20:13

interned in a magazine when I was in

20:16

my early thirties and extremely pregnant.

20:18

I mean I was like walking around with

20:21

like college students and I was

20:24

ten years older than them and stuck

20:26

out. Literally, how did you? How did you

20:28

power through those moments? I mean, I know that, Like,

20:30

I feel the same way, and I know

20:33

it doesn't have any you know, any

20:35

comparison, but I feel the same way when I'm a twenty

20:37

four year old man trying to make TikTok's with fourteen

20:40

year old kids, Like I feel like that, you

20:42

know, And so how did you? What did you tell yourself?

20:44

Because I think a lot of people feel like that, maybe,

20:46

um, you know, and my album The Gospel

20:49

of twenty three, I have a whole song that feels like that. You're

20:51

just like I feel old. I feel like an old

20:53

person. And and when you're like

20:55

you said, you're you're like extremely

20:57

pregnant. By the way, That's my new favorite

21:00

quote. Um, when you're extremely

21:02

pregnant and you're you're you're you're not necessarily

21:04

fitting in with all these other interns, but you're following

21:07

your passion. Well, how did you balance

21:09

the emotions of that, because I know, at least

21:11

for me, I've felt those I felt both

21:13

like, man, I'm so much wiser than all these people. That gives

21:16

me the leg up, and then also feeling like,

21:18

man, I'm so much older than these people. I feel like I don't fit

21:20

in. Maybe maybe it's too late for

21:22

me. Mm hmm. I

21:25

think that as a writer and as

21:27

a creative person, I always think about

21:29

something that Nora Ephron said, which

21:32

is everything is copy.

21:35

So when I was like waddling around

21:38

to the copy machine, I would

21:40

think, you know what, like I could write

21:42

about this and this is kind of funny.

21:44

Um. And I felt

21:47

like it was an experience and and I

21:49

was going to have it because I wanted to know what it was like to

21:51

work in a magazine and if I wanted to work

21:53

in a magazine as opposed to

21:55

be freelance. And so I

21:57

was like, this is about what what I'm going to

22:00

take from this experience? Um,

22:02

you know what I want to take from it, and even

22:04

if it's you know, a little untraditional,

22:07

then that's okay. But I think

22:09

it's a creative person always thinking like

22:11

even your your your most

22:13

self conscious moments, even your most

22:16

um really kind

22:18

of doubting moments, those

22:20

kinds of things can actually make for the most

22:23

relatable creative

22:25

expressions if you write about those things, if

22:27

you sing about those things, because everyone

22:30

feels that way, and if

22:32

you are okay experiencing them

22:34

and expressing them that

22:36

that that that will actually be a

22:38

worthwhile creative

22:41

experience. Uh So I try

22:43

to think of it, well, what can I kind of turn

22:46

this into, even

22:48

if it's many years down the road or um.

22:51

But I think that's helpful. Wow, I love

22:53

that. And we we've already talked about We've

22:55

talked about your basically this whole dropout

22:57

journey. You know you are. You were in

23:00

one of the most prestigious professions

23:02

in my opinion, and you just weren't

23:04

happy and you slowly started.

23:07

And I think that's where I identify with you in

23:09

the same way of my journey where it wasn't like I

23:11

woke up one morning and I was like, I'm a musician,

23:14

I'm quitting school. Here goes this. It

23:17

was more of a transition of like, I

23:19

want to focus on this, let's try this. You're

23:21

double timing at at one point where

23:23

you're writing in the morning's early early early, still

23:25

going to your job. And so I have

23:28

one last question for you, and it's it's your

23:30

advice for people like you

23:32

and I who who you

23:34

know find themselves in a place where they

23:37

know they don't fit, or something that doesn't

23:39

necessarily work for them, or a job

23:41

that's just leading them down a

23:43

path of of maybe not feeling purposeful,

23:45

not feeling happy. What's your advice for

23:48

for those people in terms of having

23:51

the courage to to identify with it

23:53

and make that move. I

23:56

would say to invest in the time to

23:59

feel you're out what it is you want to do, whether

24:03

that's speaking to some kind of career counselor

24:05

or you know, doing the work. There's

24:07

lots of online resources, uh

24:10

for kind of taking those tests

24:12

that let you know what kind of profession

24:14

be better and or if you know what it is, kind

24:17

of starting that process while

24:19

you're in your job, because I think that

24:22

is helpful and clarifying and we'll make

24:24

you realize, like, is this something I really want

24:26

to go for And also you'll feel

24:28

more confident if you if you do end up going

24:30

for it, if you've kind of put down a little bit of roots

24:33

before you make that that leap. But

24:36

I think it's also in something I had

24:39

to remind myself important to think. Like

24:42

I would also be like, well, it's too late. You know,

24:44

I've done this for a long time. I'm not twenty

24:46

one, Like it's too late. But then

24:48

you think, well, life is actually really long, So

24:51

do I want to be doing this for another forty

24:53

years or what? Like what if

24:55

I started this process now? And

24:57

like, I'm never going to be um younger

24:59

than I am now. So I

25:02

think it's helpful to think about the length of

25:04

of time that you could be doing something

25:06

else. I love that. And and Gary V. I

25:09

shout out Gary Vynerchuk all the time. Um,

25:11

he's one of my favorite people on social media who always

25:13

talks about, you know, the concept of people feeling

25:15

old and him basically saying, none of

25:17

you guys, unless you're the oldest person on earth, You're not old,

25:19

you know. And uh and and I think what you just

25:21

said is something I loved And I've never even heard

25:23

that before. But it's like, you're never gonna be

25:26

younger than you are right now. So

25:28

if you think you're old, now, wait

25:30

ten years and you're really gonna be old. Like this

25:32

is the youngest. You got to take advantage of that and

25:34

go for it. Um. Well, Lee, thank you so much.

25:36

We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, I'm actually

25:38

gonna let you have a little break if you want. I'll

25:40

virtually give you one of these donuts and you can just munch

25:43

on it. Uh. And when we come back, I'm gonna be

25:45

talking with Karen about

25:48

the emotional side of

25:50

of changing your path. All

25:52

right, we are back, and apparently so is the construction

25:55

going on outside. Um, So if you hear anything,

25:58

I will let you know that's the construct. And I

26:00

think they're they're breaking down a wall and

26:02

and uh, it's it feels very close

26:04

close to home for me. Um. And now

26:06

I'm joined with Karen. Karen,

26:10

how do you feel? Do you have any thoughts before we get into our

26:12

thoughts, um, just your thoughts on Lee's

26:15

story. I've never heard anything like it in terms

26:17

of somebody who went you know, I've heard for me

26:19

it was like high school and then music, but hers

26:21

was like lawyer and then

26:24

artists like I feel like those were polar opposites.

26:26

What are your thoughts? One of the things I heard

26:29

in Lee's story is how your

26:32

deepest truth really wants to

26:34

break through the surface, and

26:37

that there was something about her

26:39

path as a writer or her calling

26:41

as a writer that just finally

26:44

broke through, like like a seed

26:46

sprowsing through the soil, you

26:48

know, and that she could not

26:51

have kept going the way she was going.

26:53

She had to follow that

26:55

that true path absolutely.

26:58

Um. Well, before we get into our conversation, I want to speak

27:00

to that because, uh, seventy

27:03

percent of Americans are going to go to

27:05

a four year school. So

27:07

I'm part of the seventy of Americans

27:09

will go to a four year school and less

27:11

than two thirds of them will graduate

27:13

with a degree. They'll pay for

27:16

school and not

27:18

even get the thing you pay for.

27:21

Yeah, what do you make of that? I just

27:23

I don't know. Especially, we're

27:25

gonna need a whole episode in terms of the politics

27:28

side of like the economics of schooling.

27:30

You know, having a girlfriend who's who's going

27:32

to u c l A And studying like a very

27:35

prestigious major because

27:38

her goal is there, or having friends who go

27:40

to really high end schools and are willing to pay

27:42

you know, lawyers who go to Harvard pay

27:44

for it and become you know these lawyers who end

27:46

up it ends up all paying off in the end. But

27:49

it is insane that this is how much

27:51

like I'm looking at people's

27:53

yearly costs. Oh my

27:55

goodness, it is insane. And then and

27:58

then almost half of them don't even

28:00

get the thing they pay for. That's

28:03

literally like going to a restaurant ordering

28:05

a bunch of food, paying for it ahead of time,

28:07

and then they go now waiting too long. I'm gonna

28:10

go. I'm just gonna leave. That's

28:12

just insane to me. And I want to

28:14

talk about those feelings a little bit

28:16

later, but before we get into it, You're actually this

28:18

is crazy. You're the black sheep in this group.

28:21

You did not drop out, You stayed

28:23

in school. You are also one

28:25

of the like and and no no offense

28:28

to Lee at all. You're obviously wildly smart

28:30

because you went to law school. But you,

28:32

in our personal relationship, are one of the most

28:35

insightful humans that I know. That's why

28:37

I come to you for advice and everything. Karen did

28:39

you always know you wanted to follow this path

28:42

of being an enlighteners? Like I think

28:44

more than a therapist, you are like an enlightener

28:46

to me, So I'm gonna call you that. Um did

28:48

you always know that that's what you wanted to do or did

28:50

you have some of some false starts that maybe you dropped

28:52

out of those ideas before for

28:55

a long time, I didn't know. I

28:57

have a lot of areas of interest. I

29:00

grew up in a family of teachers,

29:04

and also education

29:06

was always emphasized as being very

29:09

important. I'm also the granddaughter of

29:11

immigrants, so my

29:14

my mother's father like literally

29:16

was off the boat and worked

29:19

in the laundry and had

29:21

very humble beginnings and

29:24

worked as did the sort of quote

29:26

American dream thing and became

29:28

a lawyer actually. But um,

29:31

so, education, the value

29:34

of education was always

29:36

like like the ethical value

29:38

of education and being the best person you

29:40

can be was always something that was highly

29:42

emphasized with that also

29:44

with that immigrant family story built

29:47

in and and this may be a

29:49

topic for another episode, but I have

29:51

been thinking about higher education

29:53

as and white supremacy culture. So

29:55

I just want to like throw that in there a little

29:57

bit, which is not to say that education

30:00

isn't important, but kind of to your point

30:02

about what is happening that people are

30:04

going hundreds of thousands of dollars

30:06

into debt into a system that may or may

30:08

not actually be serving their

30:11

their well being or are collective well

30:13

being, And is there a way that we can

30:16

we need to really reassess how

30:18

this not the value of education,

30:20

but the structural systems of education.

30:23

I think, combined you and I have the biggest pot

30:25

of tea to pour over all of us

30:27

in there and their education system right

30:30

now. And Lee, if you got some tea, you're more

30:32

than welcome to bring it in vodka and

30:35

some vodka pie so we can just get

30:37

drizzy drunk while a munching on a nice little,

30:39

nice little cinnamon apple pie. I

30:42

didn't answer your question, though, which is that,

30:44

UM I

30:46

knew that it was important for me to

30:48

be of service, to be

30:51

supporting people, and to be changing

30:53

the world and to be like a

30:56

change agent or an enlighten or whatever

30:58

you want to call it. I didn't really know what that was

31:00

gonna look like. And when I was in high

31:02

school and I had a public education,

31:05

UM I took this class

31:07

in high school called Problems of Young

31:09

Adulthood, and one of the semesters

31:12

in that class, we had to do a project

31:14

to investigate what career path

31:16

we might want to take. And so

31:18

at that time there was literally a huge

31:21

encyclopedic book called the Occupational

31:24

Handbook. Maybe it's online now, I don't know.

31:26

And I went to the library and spent

31:29

hours pouring through

31:31

that book, and I landed

31:33

on social work. Even though

31:35

I looked at the jobs

31:38

that social workers had and I thought, well, this is

31:40

cool because I would have so

31:42

many different things that I could do. I

31:45

liked the idea of having a variety of options,

31:48

and more importantly, I felt like the

31:50

values of that work really resonated

31:52

with my own values that had to do with

31:54

empowerment and social justice

31:56

and respecting the dignity of all people

31:59

and and I'm trying not to use

32:01

the word help really, but it's more like to

32:04

be of support. And so

32:06

those things really attracted

32:08

me and felt like they were values that

32:10

I cared about. And from a very

32:12

practical point of view, knowing that I could

32:14

do a bunch of different things, it was never my plan

32:17

to be a therapist. Never. Um, it

32:19

is no surprise to me that even though

32:21

therapist was not your main goal, you

32:23

had you know, you were on that path of wanting to

32:25

be of service or wanting to be of support to

32:28

to your fellow human beings. Um,

32:30

but I want to talk now about this whole concept

32:32

of what might have been. You went to school,

32:34

you kind of followed your path. I

32:37

didn't go to school, but I also followed my path,

32:39

and I have a lot of feelings, like I had mentioned where

32:41

it's like, man, it would have been nice to

32:43

to be on the basketball team and

32:45

you know, to be to try and be

32:48

the homecoming king or what you know whatever,

32:50

all of that that high school stuff is. I didn't

32:52

get any of that. I went to one dance with my

32:54

with my my little teenage girlfriend.

32:57

I went to like a Sadie Hawkins dance. Um.

33:00

But other than that, like I didn't get to do

33:03

any of the high school stuff. Like I kind

33:05

of became an adult at fifteen, and I have a lot

33:07

of feelings and and

33:10

and almost like I don't know, like trying to fill

33:12

voids, you know, like I think that a lot

33:14

of my youth was was lost in chasing

33:17

a dream, which I don't regret that at

33:19

all, but I do often have those feelings

33:21

of like being sad or or or being

33:23

like, man, I missed out on that. That sucks. How

33:26

do you how do you overcome that? You're

33:29

talking about one aspect

33:32

of education and like full

33:34

disclosure, like I didn't do any of those things

33:36

in high school either. I didn't go to the prom,

33:38

I never went to dances. I

33:40

didn't feel like I fit in like

33:43

you would if you look on paper, you

33:45

would it would appear as if I

33:47

have really like taken the traditional path.

33:50

But if you actually could peel back the layers,

33:52

you would be like, oh, this is nothing like

33:54

what I thought it was going to be. So I didn't

33:57

interesting it's different too, Like

33:59

I chose not to do those things

34:01

weren't important to me because I was I

34:03

was the art theater kid,

34:06

you know, like I was not the

34:08

homecoming Like I wasn't into

34:10

sport, you know, like I wasn't I really rejected

34:13

a lot of that. But there

34:15

is a part of at least going to college

34:18

that is the social developmental

34:20

part, like how you figure out like who

34:22

am I and how do I create a life? That is

34:25

about being my authentic self. But

34:27

there are also pieces of education

34:30

that are really about what's going to help

34:32

me to make a living and

34:34

support a family or you

34:36

know, have a right livelihood. So

34:39

both of those things are important. Like, there are

34:41

people who are really like living the dream,

34:44

who are really suffering economically.

34:46

There are people who are thriving economically,

34:49

but they feel like their lives are empty.

34:51

So so then vibe with me for a little

34:53

bit because we all, well, we now have another

34:55

piece in which we can relate to. So so do

34:58

you ever have those thoughts? And and and I know you

35:00

had mentioned there's basically there's there's two different pieces

35:02

of schooling. You know, there's the experiential

35:04

part and then there's the learning part. Experiential

35:07

is what I'm kind of focused on, uh

35:09

for now, because it's where it's the only

35:11

place. Like do I regret sitting in a professor's

35:14

lab and being like, hey, I really

35:16

have a question. I don't regret that stuff at all. I more

35:18

regret like you had mentioned the things

35:21

that helped shape a human being. You know,

35:23

I think proms can they can be

35:25

very shaping for people. Not necessary at all.

35:27

Obviously none of them are necessary because I

35:29

am here, But like, there are

35:31

moments in which some people you know, I was.

35:33

We were talking to Neza in the first

35:36

episode of this podcast where she talks about high schools

35:38

where she you know, lost her virginity,

35:40

where she like where she like tried things

35:42

for the first time. I know a lot of my friends drink for the first

35:44

time and all of those things that I didn't experience

35:46

because I was so focused on work. So

35:48

telling me that you also didn't do those things,

35:51

do you have any regrets that, like, do you ever think,

35:53

like, man, I do wish that I had been a little bit more

35:55

about the experiential

35:58

part of school and not just the academic I

36:01

don't regret it for like in that age,

36:03

like in the high school age, I had that

36:05

in other parts of my life

36:08

I had definitely in college,

36:10

I had that. I felt like I

36:13

had a sense of community, and I

36:16

was able to go to a college that I felt

36:18

like, again like reflected

36:20

those same values to

36:23

me. And I went to

36:25

a college, for example, that had like a cooperative

36:27

education program, So half

36:30

of the time I was on the campus studying and the other

36:32

half of the time I was in paid internships,

36:34

so I was actually like doing real work

36:36

because yeah, because experiential

36:39

education was a real

36:41

value, so that when I graduated from college, I actually

36:43

already had a resume UM

36:46

and I also had one of the things

36:48

that I think you have that people

36:51

sometimes get in college but not always,

36:53

is having a mentor. So I had

36:55

a mentor who was my advisor

36:57

in college, and she was

37:00

my She she died at the age

37:02

of like nine, a couple of years ago, but I

37:04

had a lifelong relationship with her.

37:07

She she wrote my reference letter

37:09

for graduate school. Like she was

37:12

an important mentor in my life for my

37:14

entire adult life. And so sometimes

37:16

people get those in college, but sometimes

37:18

you get a mentor like you have in

37:21

other parts of your life and your work.

37:23

So maybe you could just say a little bit about like your

37:26

professional mentors, Like, yeah, absolutely

37:28

for you. That's why I think it's That's why I think

37:30

the importance of of separating um, which

37:33

is something that you did and brought up the

37:35

academia part of schooling

37:37

and the experiential part of schooling, because I think

37:39

it's pretty plain and simple if you're basing it off

37:42

of, Hey, I want to do this job, there

37:44

is a clear path in which I think you do

37:46

that job. If you want to be a therapist, you go to school

37:48

and you learn and get the degree and

37:51

do all that stuff with therapy. If you want to be a lawyer,

37:53

you do this. That part, to me is very

37:55

very clear, and that's why I'm so happy that

37:57

I had Like you said, I had a mentor.

37:59

I went the route I think the best route

38:01

that I could, which was focusing on practicing

38:03

music my parents. You know, even

38:06

my mentor still told me I needed to

38:08

read. All of the mentor. I think I have multiple mentors

38:10

still told me I should read and learn, And

38:12

that's why I'm so proud. Like you mentioned, you

38:15

did your path exactly the way

38:17

you wanted to. I did my path exactly

38:19

the way I wanted to. I think my point

38:22

is more now about people who

38:24

kind of have conflicting feelings or

38:26

even in hindsight may have

38:28

might have conflicting feelings. I have no conflicting feelings

38:30

about about going to school

38:33

or you know, like having a degree.

38:35

I have no conflicting feelings about that. It's

38:37

more the conflicting feelings about man like I

38:39

didn't go to prom but I wanted to talk about

38:42

is like the conflicting feelings

38:44

that you might feel of anything,

38:46

like whether it was going to prom, which you

38:48

didn't feel that because you got that social

38:50

aspect out of your school. I was

38:52

I'm not even talking about the things I missed out in college

38:55

because my brain never even thought about college.

38:57

I'm thinking, I'm just talking about the things that I was missing

38:59

out in high school. And I know that a

39:01

lot of people, you know, if you're part

39:03

of that of a sevent of

39:05

Americans who get their degree, and

39:08

now we're having those feelings. So my question

39:10

now is is is it helpful at

39:12

all to even dwell on the past like that or

39:15

is it just like a fool's Errand

39:19

I think regret is a complicated

39:22

emotion, and um,

39:25

we could spend a whole episode, Actually

39:27

we could spend a whole year just on Regret

39:30

the podcast. We should make a new podcast. So

39:34

one question I often ask people when

39:36

they're wrestling with these questions like about education

39:38

or career or whatever, is who

39:41

are you doing this for? Mm

39:43

hm, you know, like I'm

39:45

going to go to law school or I'm gonna do

39:47

this, or I'm going to do that. And it doesn't mean

39:50

that we should only do for

39:52

ourselves, because I think for a lot of

39:54

us, we come from a culture or

39:56

belief system that says I'm part of

39:58

I am part of something bigger than and myself.

40:01

But if we only do it for other people

40:03

and don't include ourselves in it, I think

40:05

we're more likely to feel regret because

40:07

then you realize, oh my god, I just

40:09

spent ten years in a career that I actually

40:12

hate because my parents

40:14

wanted me to do it, or because I

40:17

felt like I had to be successful

40:19

because there were people in my family who didn't have the

40:21

opportunities that I had. So

40:23

it's not that there's a right way or a wrong way

40:25

there, but to really be able to ask yourself

40:28

for whom am I making these choices,

40:31

and am I making sure to include myself

40:33

in those choices? I love that,

40:35

And and actually we had we had addressed it a

40:37

little bit, and it's something that I want to reinforce

40:40

here, which is everything that you've

40:42

done in your life, everything that I've done in my life

40:44

has led me exactly where I am now.

40:46

So to regret, you know, I always

40:49

I wrestle with regret because I try and practice

40:51

what I preach. You know, I try and practice

40:53

like everything that I did got me here, So

40:55

not having a problem got me exactly where I wanted,

40:58

what I trade where exactly I am

41:00

now for what for going to a

41:02

prom? No, not at all, And that's something

41:04

that really helps me. But you also brought that up, and

41:06

you also brought even a better point up,

41:08

which is who are you doing it for. Let's

41:11

say that you get past your you know, let's say you

41:13

want to leave school, you're in college, you're three years

41:16

into your major, and you're like, I don't

41:18

want to do this at all. I'm doing this for

41:20

my parents, or I'm doing this because I think it's

41:22

the right thing to do, but I actually love music,

41:24

or I actually love painting. What

41:27

is your advice for somebody who has that moment

41:31

but they do have expectations from other

41:33

people, their parents, maybe their parents are even

41:35

helping them pay for school, their friends

41:37

who are doing well and having success

41:39

because they stayed in school, all of those pressures

41:41

that come with it. What's your advice for that? I

41:44

think having somebody who who

41:46

can help you to clarify

41:49

what's true for you, whether

41:51

that's you know, as Lee said, whether it's

41:53

a career counselor or a therapist,

41:56

or an advisor or a mentor

41:58

or a group of friends. But you

42:00

know, sometimes we think we know what we want, it

42:02

turns out to actually be not true. Um.

42:05

The other thing is we're not trapped

42:08

hopefully, So like if at a certain

42:10

point down the road, even

42:12

with tremendous success, like twenty

42:14

years from now, you might say, you know what I actually

42:16

want to be. I think I might want to take a break from

42:19

music and like be a personal trainer, or

42:21

I might want to be a restaurant

42:23

critic, or I might want to like

42:26

like John Stewart, like left his career

42:28

to go have a farm in New Jersey.

42:31

You know. Like, so we have and

42:34

the best of circumstances, with

42:36

the economic support that we need, we have

42:38

choices. Like Lee's example was

42:40

great, like she realized, oh my god, I

42:42

have something else not only that I

42:44

can do, but that I feel called to.

42:47

And so regret I think comes

42:50

more when we feel like we're stuck and

42:52

we can't get ourselves out. But sometimes

42:55

we're not stuck and we can actually like say, you

42:57

know what, I don't want to work in a

42:59

hospital as a medical social worker

43:01

anymore. I want to go off on my own and

43:04

see how this goes. And I

43:06

did, and here I am.

43:08

I love that. So we'll be right back. And when

43:10

we come back, we are talking with Lee and Karen

43:13

about how to know if a traditional path

43:16

is right for you. Don't go anywhere. We

43:18

are back. This is let's get into it. And we've

43:20

had some pretty I didn't even know how heart

43:22

felt, you know. I was kind of thinking we'd talked like and it would

43:25

be like, you know, da dada school, da dada

43:27

work, you know, fun, and then Karen and I

43:29

just got like hella deep with it,

43:32

and uh, and now we're here and we're talking about

43:35

how to know if a traditional path is right

43:37

for you. The three of us have all done uh

43:39

pretty different paths, have different focuses

43:42

and different paths in life, and so I want to have,

43:44

uh, just kind of a quick round table and I'll

43:46

ask one question, what do you

43:48

wish you would have known before going on to

43:50

continuing your studies. I

43:52

guess I really wish I'd known

43:55

more about what being

43:58

a lawyer was like then, Like

44:00

Ali mcbeel, I

44:04

think that my diligence was

44:06

was pretty lacking, and if I

44:08

if I had done a little bit more um

44:12

looking into into what into

44:14

what the career was actually

44:16

like as opposed to just jumping

44:19

into three three years of school.

44:22

You know, I might have I might have thought differently,

44:24

and and maybe I would have done

44:26

it, but I would have been a more educated consumer.

44:29

M I like that, Karen, Um.

44:33

I wish that I had known that

44:36

mistakes are helpful because

44:39

they help you clarify, uh

44:42

and get back on the right path. Oh.

44:45

I love that too. I think mine as

44:47

a as the opposite, because it wasn't for continuing,

44:50

but because I discontinued. Is the importance

44:53

of whatever you're doing,

44:55

whatever you want to do, if it is dropping out of high

44:57

school, if it is dropping out of college or not going to

44:59

college, the importance of whatever

45:01

you want to do really treating it like

45:03

it's school, really learning about it like

45:05

it's school. I know, when I first stopped

45:07

going to online school, I definitely didn't

45:09

supplement learning and

45:12

that same capacity. So I did find

45:14

myself being like, what am I doing right

45:16

now? As a sixteen year old kid? What am I doing?

45:18

You know? And I was like, Oh, it's because I need to learn

45:20

more. And that's when I started getting with

45:22

the mentorship, like we had mentioned, Karen, with

45:25

the friends who are like read this book

45:27

about business because you're gonna be a

45:29

businessman. If you're gonna own your own business,

45:31

read this book about music, read this book about all

45:33

these other things. So I think my advice that I would

45:35

have told myself is don't stop learning

45:38

in that capacity because just because you don't

45:40

go to traditional school or you don't do the traditional

45:43

route, keep pushing, keep you

45:45

know, learning in that capacity. Treat

45:47

it like it is school and not just Hey,

45:50

I don't have to go to school anymore, so I can do whatever

45:52

I want. Um, alright, this next

45:54

question is what does the voice sound like that

45:56

tells you, uh, something might not

45:58

be right and it is time you to change paths

46:01

or to change directions. I know for me

46:03

it was it was even the voice

46:05

of my father who gave me that. You know, I'm

46:07

very lucky that my dad had experienced

46:10

what it's like to not follow the traditional

46:12

route, and he said, look, if this isn't

46:14

you, it's not you. And I'm very lucky that

46:16

my parents are like that. So my voice is actually

46:18

not an intangible thing. It's my own dad.

46:21

What about you, Karen, It's

46:24

a felt sense in the body.

46:27

It's like your own personal GPS

46:29

that says, you know, go this way, go that

46:32

way, um, and that we there's

46:34

a lot of clutter and noise that just that

46:36

can distract us from that

46:39

that internal barometer that actually

46:41

like knows where we need to go. It's

46:43

other people's expectations, it's societal

46:45

expectations, it's trauma, it's you

46:48

know, the things we learned that maybe

46:50

didn't actually service. It's all these things.

46:53

And so it's really like that

46:55

voice is sometimes like a little fluttering

46:57

in the stomach. I think that's the thing is

47:00

is it's a good note that you're pointing out, is that

47:02

it doesn't have to be this loud siren in

47:04

your ear that's like wrong way, wrong

47:06

way. It could be something as simple as a

47:08

feeling. And you have to have that that vulnerability

47:11

honestly with yourself to hear that Lee.

47:13

Anything to add I

47:15

would say to pay paying attention

47:18

to the times when something

47:20

happens or you achieve something and

47:22

you feel like a genuine

47:24

kind of spark of joy

47:27

as opposed to the kind of

47:29

times when it's it's

47:31

external. Because for me,

47:33

I felt like I was I always really like

47:36

school, and I like studying. I like taking

47:38

tests even and getting good grades.

47:40

But those things were all all kind of external,

47:43

like you're doing well, and I like that,

47:46

like achieved. I became sort of an achievement addict.

47:49

But then there were times when the things

47:51

that I that really brought me joy

47:54

weren't necessarily those things. They were the

47:56

times that I, you know, felt like I'd expressed

47:59

myself and kind paying attention to that

48:01

and not the external markers.

48:04

It's hard listening to the external you and

48:06

the internal you because sometimes they're telling you

48:08

two different things, right, So

48:10

it leads me to my next question, Karen, is

48:12

there any point where you think, um, you should

48:15

maybe you should stick to something that's traditional,

48:17

even if it doesn't necessarily feel like it's

48:19

the right thing, because I know a lot of you know, it's

48:21

like sometimes I hated I hated English class,

48:23

and I was like, I'm dropping out because English sucks. Obviously

48:26

you should stay in school just because you you know, just because

48:28

you're uncomfortable at one point, or you don't like

48:30

something at one point. In my career,

48:32

even in music, there's things that I don't like, but I stick

48:34

to it because I know that it's my passion. So I

48:37

guess putting that in the traditional

48:39

space, is there any moments that you

48:41

feel like you should stick to it, even

48:44

if it's not something that you love absolutely.

48:47

What's helped me is if I am

48:51

learning something or doing something that

48:53

feels really hard

48:56

or not like me, but

48:58

I can reframe it so that I can

49:00

see that there's some value for myself.

49:03

Like I took trigonometry

49:07

and I have not used

49:09

one drop of it. I don't remember,

49:12

I don't give a ship and I didn't

49:15

then and I don't now, and I'm not even sure

49:17

how I passed the class. But if somebody

49:19

had actually been able to say to me, this

49:22

is how it actually might serve

49:24

you later, like

49:27

in a way that was actually true, I

49:29

might have been willing to My

49:32

brain does not work that way. I was never going to be

49:34

good at that. But I have

49:36

found it helpful when

49:38

I'm learning something that's really hard

49:40

or doing something that doesn't feel quite like

49:43

me, to be able to ask myself,

49:46

is there anything here for me that is

49:48

worth the suffering that I'm

49:50

enduring? And sometimes it's just I can

49:53

pay my bills right, Like, so there

49:55

is the economic reality, but there

49:57

might also be like Lee was talking earlier

50:00

about, like is going through law

50:02

school, like applicable or helpful

50:04

to other careers. Probably sometimes

50:06

yes and sometimes no. But

50:09

if there isn't anything, if it's not

50:11

going to give you anything of value,

50:13

let it go. I love

50:16

that. I love that. Now. That's

50:18

the thing I love about this podcast is even though we all have different

50:20

paths, the three of us are all walking testimonies

50:23

or whether it's your actual job, Karen,

50:26

to advise people to chase happiness and

50:28

not chase a diploma or or

50:30

a job unless it is truly what is

50:32

internally inspiring you. Um

50:35

do either of you have and we'll start with you Lee, any

50:37

other wisdom that you have just on this topic.

50:39

I mean, I think we've had such great conversations today

50:42

about going the traditional route, sticking

50:44

a traditional route, or if not, you know,

50:46

making that plan to change your life, following

50:49

the steps to figuring out what it

50:51

is that you really want to chase and if it if it

50:53

involves going to school, great or if

50:55

it just involves educating in other ways

50:58

also great. So is there any final wisdom

51:00

that you guys have to share before we wrap this up? I

51:03

would just say that that I think

51:06

knowing that even

51:08

you know, even when you're doing what you're meant to

51:11

do or that you love to do, it

51:13

will still sometimes feel really difficult

51:16

and that and that and

51:18

being sort of okay with that, and

51:21

it's sort of like what you're saying before, not just like

51:23

I hate, like I don't want to do this, you

51:26

know, forget it, and kind of

51:28

rolling with that a little is something that advice

51:30

I give myself often because

51:33

when you give something up, it's natural to think,

51:35

well, you know, I gave up

51:37

something to do this, and now it's difficult

51:39

for me right now, and so was that was that

51:42

worth it? And just kind of rolling with

51:44

with that a little bit? Yeah, chasing your dreams is gonna

51:46

be hard. And that's the thing, the biggest thing. All three of us

51:48

are now very happy doing what we love

51:50

doing, but all three of us, none of us

51:52

have a perfect, easy, smooth sailing

51:55

time. It's very you know, it's very much

51:57

so still a grind, still a struggle,

51:59

but at the end of day, it's a payoff because we are

52:01

in fact chasing our dreams. Karen, any last

52:03

wisdom to add, Yeah, I want to

52:06

say, chase integrity. Oh,

52:09

because sometimes chasing happiness

52:12

can like we are socialized

52:14

to think certain things are going to make us happy

52:16

again, sort of the inside versus outside

52:19

thing. But if you're chasing your integrity

52:22

and you are living your life in alignment

52:24

with your integrity, the happiness

52:26

will come right. Your dreams will be part

52:28

of that, and your sense of wholeness

52:31

as a human being will be intact. Wow,

52:35

that's beautiful. Let's leave it at that. Chase integrity,

52:38

chase your dreams and if it means the traditional

52:40

route, go for it and work hard. And

52:42

if it doesn't, then chase whatever

52:44

it is and learn and stay stay educating

52:47

yourself and chasing that integrity.

52:49

That's a great way to end it. At this point, I'm gonna take my headphones

52:51

off and it's done. Um. But thank you Karen,

52:53

and thank you Lee. I want to

52:55

this is the last moment of the episode. Uh,

52:58

and we do something all the time. It's not so shameless

53:00

promo. So Lee, I want you to just

53:02

promote the hell out of something that you're working on right

53:05

now. Promote your social media accounts, whatever

53:07

you want to promote. It's your time. Well,

53:10

I I am currently basically

53:12

working on a book that is not coming

53:14

out yet, so when

53:16

the time comes, I will do I will definitely.

53:19

We're gonna bring you back on here to do your shameless

53:21

bring me back on you bring me back on? I

53:24

love it? And where can people find you on social media? Um

53:27

lee abs at Instagram,

53:29

um and Twitter amazing. Make

53:31

sure you check that out. Karen, you're a pro at this not

53:34

so shameless promo. Let's hear it. Uh.

53:37

People can find me on Twitter and Instagram

53:39

at k e replenish or

53:42

you can go to my website Karen Erlkman

53:44

dot com. I love it and you know where

53:46

you can find me at alex Iona on all

53:48

platforms ai o n oh, the best part

53:50

about having a weird last name. I am so

53:53

grateful that you came in here uh

53:55

and listen to this podcast. Please make sure

53:57

you subscribed to the podcast and rate our

53:59

podcast. That is how we grow. Make

54:01

sure you leave us a little bit of a review if you'd

54:03

like. Thank you so much for listening. We will

54:05

talk to you very very soon and enjoy

54:08

the rest of your day peace. We

54:16

really want you to get the help you need, so if you

54:18

need help, please seek independent advice from

54:20

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54:23

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if that's a doozy