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1:07

Welcome to Alienating the Audience,

1:10

a show that explores the deeper side

1:12

of science fiction. I'm Andrew Heaton,

1:15

the thinking man's nerd. And

1:17

today, just stay right

1:19

where you are, because the world

1:22

is watching you. And

1:24

we'll be talking about The Truman Show. We're going to do that

1:27

with Enrique Couto, host of Weekly Spooky, who's

1:30

been on the program multiple times. Good to see

1:32

you, Enrique. Happy to be here very much and happy to be watched

1:34

constantly,

1:35

even in the toilet. Uh,

1:37

yeah, it, you know what? It's I, I

1:40

love this. The Truman Show

1:43

came out in 1998. I loved it when it came out. I

1:46

think I watched it again, maybe in college around like 2004 or

1:48

so. Four.

1:53

And that was the last time I'd seen it. So it'd been coming

1:56

up on 20 years. I remember most of

1:58

it vividly because I remember.

1:59

all things vividly before I started drinking. And

2:03

everything after that in my life is just kind of a blur.

2:05

But like anything that happened when he fired a 23,

2:07

I've got a pretty good memory of. So I remember this film.

2:09

And it's truly a wonderful film. And

2:12

it's also one of those films that I think is brilliant

2:15

in that like kind of like Groundhog Day, where it

2:17

just created its own new

2:19

paradigm. It wasn't a this type

2:22

of film, it's its own film, and it's brilliant

2:24

in the execution. I love the Truman Show. Well,

2:26

I love the term remember it vividly because

2:29

the movie itself is vivid, incredibly

2:32

vivid, but not overwhelming.

2:35

It's a comforting vividness. It's hard to

2:37

really put your finger on it. I know that they

2:39

based a lot of the visual style on

2:42

marketing materials from like the 50s, 60s and

2:44

70s. That makes sense to me. Yeah.

2:47

Because everybody like I don't I don't understand

2:49

the cinematography of film

2:51

very well. I tend to go to the the thinky abstract

2:54

stuff very quickly. Like one of the

2:56

things that's in there is it is this kind of vague,

3:01

oh, 1950s kind of vibe

3:04

to it. It has that 1950s simulacrum.

3:07

Like there is this idea that we have of like, there

3:10

are multiple members of my family that believe this

3:12

that the 50s were perfect. And

3:14

I'm like, sure, for you as a white

3:17

child in Oklahoma, I think

3:19

it probably was true. I mean, keep in mind that

3:22

like black people in your town didn't

3:24

exist because your talent outlawed them and

3:27

they, you know, couldn't use water fountains and things. But yes,

3:29

within this one specific sliver of American

3:31

life, there were some very wholesome, pleasant

3:34

and safe,

3:37

easily paced elements that this the show

3:39

is harkening back to through the costume. Right. Oh,

3:42

absolutely. And it's it's selling. Everything

3:44

is being sold. Everything is for sale on the

3:46

Truman Show. You look at like the little

3:48

old ladies that are obsessed with watching it. They're

3:50

wearing the same bathrobes as his wife.

3:53

Right. Yes. Who she is like the

3:55

biggest marketer on the whole show.

3:57

Anytime they're having something for dinner, she holds the body.

4:00

walks up and tells you how nutritious it is

4:02

and that's why they're eating it. It's

4:06

not a super funny film. If I'm not

4:08

mistaken, this is Jim Carrey's breakout dramatic

4:10

role where he- Yeah, he took a lower fee

4:12

because it was drama. He wanted to get into drama.

4:14

I think at that time he was making 20 million

4:17

a film. Wow. And he

4:19

took 12 to make that one. So he was really schlubbing

4:21

it. He probably had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

4:24

Yeah, exactly. He'd eat bologna for a while. I

4:28

wouldn't describe it as a comedy. I don't think it needs

4:30

to be a comedy, but there are funny scenes

4:33

with Laura

4:35

Lenny where she just randomly

4:38

will walk into the garage and go, that lawnmower

4:41

is old. We

4:44

should really get one of those blobbity blobs and

4:46

he'll turn around and be like, yeah, I guess we

4:48

can. And it's just so over the top

4:51

and it has this almost subdued

4:53

manic expression that you see in

4:56

somebody that is clearly selling you something. Yes.

4:59

And Laura Lenny said that she studied Sears

5:01

catalog photos for her expressions

5:04

as that character, which I found unbelievably,

5:10

I totally believed it. The second I read that, I was like, how do you-

5:12

Yeah, she did. Yeah. Well,

5:14

can I- Okay, so I want to get into the deeper meaning of this,

5:16

but the thing that I most enjoyed watching

5:18

this now, 20 years after the last time I

5:20

watched it is how- This is

5:23

a film you can watch 10 times and you will

5:25

pick up new details. Oh yeah.

5:28

The writer and director combo of this film

5:32

did an amazing job of

5:35

just putting in so many Easter eggs and things.

5:37

So I picked up on a bunch of things and I want to throw

5:39

them out. And if you have ones too, please either

5:41

comment on them or throw them out to me. Okay,

5:44

yeah, definitely. Okay. Well, so first

5:46

one, and this one I hadn't even thought about till I watched it

5:48

this time. The name of our

5:50

protagonist is Truman Burbank. And

5:54

I know, as many people will know, that Burbank

5:56

is one of the composite cities

5:59

of Los Angeles. it is presumably where

6:01

Truman is being filmed. He has

6:04

filmed in Burbank, California, a

6:07

subsidy of Hollywood. It

6:10

would be like saying Truman Hollywood,

6:12

basically. It just sounds slightly better. It's

6:15

the part of Hollywood that's vaguely human compared

6:18

to actual Hollywood. Yes, that sounds about

6:20

right. Well, in his name, Truman, which

6:22

is not a common name you encounter very often, the only other Truman

6:24

I've ever heard of is Truman Capote. We

6:27

break it down. True man. He

6:30

is the only, as Christoph says over the course

6:32

of the film, which by the way, we will spoil. Oh, yeah.

6:34

This film's been out a long time. It's

6:37

literally not from the millennium we're currently

6:39

in. So if you're at home, it's your own damn

6:41

fault for not having seen it yet, pause the film

6:44

and go watch it. Find in all

6:46

of the films recommended on the show by going to

6:48

mightaheaton.gov slash alienating. And then you'll

6:50

find it. That is on Paramount Plus right now or

6:53

Showtime on the, I just want to mention that's how

6:55

I found it immediately. Yeah. You

6:57

can find it. But towards the end, Christoph,

6:59

the director, creator of this entire Truman

7:01

show, Truman says, was nothing

7:03

real? And he says, you were real. And

7:06

it's like, right. Truman, he is the only

7:08

authentic character in this entire world

7:10

they've created that has the costs

7:13

of an entire country to produce where everybody

7:15

is an actor or a background extra. The only

7:18

person and the whole thing, the only true man is Truman.

7:21

Yeah. Well, and I

7:23

found one of the things that this movie really

7:25

hits me with. So the first time I saw it was

7:27

like right when it came out. So I was like too

7:29

young to even appreciate it. So what I really

7:32

appreciated was how dense

7:34

it was. Like I couldn't catch everything. I'm

7:36

like, I don't know how old I was exactly, like 16 or

7:38

something, renting it at Blockbuster. And I'm like, whoa, Jim

7:40

Carrey's good. Whoa, that seems sad.

7:43

Whoa, now it's over. I'm child, you know? But every

7:45

time I would watch it, I would just, I would, something else

7:48

would grab me. And it was

7:50

funny when you recommended us watching this, I had just

7:52

caught the last 50 minutes of it at the cigar

7:54

lounge near me. They just had it on. And I

7:56

did that thing where me and buddy were talking. And then all of a sudden

7:59

we realized, oh crap, we're watching. all of the Truman Show now. We've

8:02

been silent for a while because every

8:04

scene is so ... it

8:06

grabs you so strongly. But the thing that stuck with

8:09

me really majorly, this go around,

8:11

is how sad his

8:13

best friend character is. Yeah.

8:16

See, they made him the biggest loser

8:18

ever so that Truman would appreciate what

8:21

little he was given. Right. And

8:23

that made me so depressed. You're both

8:25

in your 30s, and whenever you complain about your job

8:28

being boring or your marriage being unfulfilling, well,

8:30

he's single and he fills vending machines. So

8:33

could be you. It's like class

8:35

war almost. And it's also like

8:37

you start thinking about the ethics of this

8:40

universe that they're living in of

8:43

his mother's a monster, I would say, because

8:45

she is literally an actress

8:47

that has been charged

8:49

with being his mother. She's not his

8:52

biological mother. And while normally,

8:54

I would very quickly add

8:56

that that's unimportant, that the true relationship

8:59

between a parent and child is the relationship and

9:01

not the genetics, and that adoption is a beautiful thing,

9:03

and maybe I'll adopt one day. I don't know. I've

9:05

thought about it. I would normally say all those things,

9:08

but she's clearly a sociopath

9:11

actor who has been charged

9:14

with being a character and playing a character

9:17

and doing it all the time and lying to

9:19

this child that she doesn't appear to really ...

9:22

You never get any warmth from her when she's talking

9:24

to Truman. Not a bit. And

9:27

all the photographs when they go through the baby

9:29

book, it appeared like the actor who played the

9:31

father was far warmer. Yeah, for

9:34

sure. Which is why they chose to kill him.

9:37

To kill him off. But even when

9:39

they're going through the book, one of the things that

9:41

you notice in there is there's a

9:44

photo of Truman in a clown costume

9:46

behind bars. It's my little

9:49

clown, and it's so quick, and it's like, yep,

9:51

that's exactly what he is. He is a trapped

9:53

clown for the amusement of everybody else. And

9:57

they keep mentioning he can leave whenever

9:59

he wants, but when they keep ... can't find him, there's shining

10:01

spotlights and playing sirens. It

10:03

is a prison, a thousand percent a

10:05

prison. And

10:08

I thought that this film, one thing that really

10:11

stuck out to me is this film is kind to consumers

10:13

and hateful to creators. Yeah, you're

10:15

right. Because everybody that we're seeing, I hadn't thought

10:17

about that, but you're right, like Black

10:20

Mirror hates everybody. When

10:23

you watch Black Mirror, it was

10:25

very difficult for me to watch the first season. Now I like Black

10:27

Mirror, but the first season, they might as well end every

10:29

episode with the camera spinning towards

10:32

the director who very angrily looks into

10:34

it and goes, don't you feel like a piece of

10:36

shit? And I watched it,

10:39

I was like, well, I didn't want to watch the prime minister

10:41

fuck a pig like that. I didn't ask for this.

10:43

I didn't want this episode in this hypothetical.

10:46

It's very, very critical in this one. All

10:49

of the consumers, you're right. There's the guy in the bathtub.

10:52

There's the old ladies. There's the people at the bar.

10:54

There's the security guards. They're all rooting

10:56

for Truman, apparently

10:58

oblivious to the fact that their consumption

11:00

of this television show is what is

11:02

fueling this and that they are to some

11:05

degree complicit in this, but they're rooting

11:07

for him. And we, the

11:09

viewer in the real world get the impression that there's

11:12

Truman, there's his captors, and

11:14

then there's everybody rooting for Truman and the

11:16

consumers in that latter, that we're all on team

11:18

Truman. Because they all have something in common

11:20

with him, which is that they're all human. He,

11:23

regardless of how they prove through

11:25

the Truman show that you cannot breed

11:28

someone to be a certain way, you cannot

11:30

nurture them to be a certain way. They

11:32

will go after what they want to go after

11:35

because humans are very much beyond the sum of

11:37

the parts of their parents, they're beyond the sum of

11:39

the parts of their experiences. There's just

11:41

some stuff that's voodoo, even if you're

11:43

not religious. There's just some stuff.

11:46

You don't know where that came from. It came from the ether.

11:49

And that's the thing I love is that the audience

11:51

who is obsessed with watching him and loves watching

11:53

him and is totally complicit. They provide

11:56

the ratings, they buy the merchandise.

11:59

They cannot win. for him to escape because

12:03

we're already at one of my favorite moments. The

12:05

last moment of the whole thing is the two security guards were

12:07

super into it, going like, wow,

12:10

that was amazing. He got away. Yeah.

12:13

What else is on? What's up, TV guy? They

12:16

immediately lose their... I

12:18

think that this is very prescient in that it comes out in 1998, it

12:21

comes out the year before Big Brother. This

12:23

is not a commentary on reality television because

12:26

reality television doesn't exist. If it does,

12:28

it's in a very embryonic state. It's certainly not

12:30

the cultural phenomenon that it will become with

12:33

Survivor, Big Brother, all

12:35

of the scores of mind rot that will

12:37

be unleashed upon mankind in the ensuing

12:39

decades. But it is sort of

12:42

prognosticating that

12:46

obsession with the real person living

12:48

in a fake situation. I mean, the fact that reality

12:51

television has writers, like that to me

12:53

has always just been a very like... Is there a

12:55

particular... If there's a strike, then they're producers.

12:58

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Producers. To

13:02

go back to Marlin, I think Marlin's a fascinating character.

13:04

You're right. He's kind of sad. And it's also like, everybody

13:08

in this is ethically complicit. The mother's

13:10

a monster, in my opinion. Christoph is a monster

13:13

that has some depth to him. And

13:15

he's kind of a hack, by the way. Yeah.

13:19

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. But Marlin,

13:22

I find interesting because he says in there, we've

13:24

been best friends since we were 10 years old. I think that's

13:26

what he says, 10 years old. And so Marlin

13:29

is a child actor who was

13:31

basically brainwashed in an impressionable

13:34

age to be like, hey, it's your job to

13:36

pretend to like this kid. And he

13:38

is presumably friends with Truman.

13:40

You do get the impression he actually likes Truman as

13:43

opposed to the wife. But

13:45

he... Imagine that we explained

13:49

Home Alone to Macaulay Culkin when he was eight years

13:51

old. And then we went, by the way, we're going to lock

13:53

you in this dope forever. And

13:56

you're in on the joke, but this is your job.

14:00

At some point he's an adult and culpable for those

14:02

decisions, but I would say from like 8 to 14,

14:05

I would give him a lot of leeway. And then

14:07

once you get to like 14 and it's like, haha,

14:10

we've tricked you into living this fake life.

14:13

You could leave, but you will have no money and you have no skills.

14:15

You didn't even go to real school. Yeah, it's all you know

14:17

now. So you are captured. Right.

14:20

At some point it's like, yeah, I don't know to like, it's

14:23

an interesting character of like how

14:25

in on this is he versus how damaged

14:27

is he? I don't know. But then one

14:29

of the moments that breaks my heart is you start to feel

14:32

those feelings about him. He's a very,

14:34

the actor really portrays him well. But then they

14:36

show that the director, Christoph, is

14:39

most of the time saying what he's

14:41

saying to Truman in his ear. Yeah.

14:44

Which literally I've never seen

14:46

anybody do something like that in actual show

14:48

business beyond professional wrestling. In professional

14:51

wrestling, producers will say into

14:53

headsets what the commentators

14:56

should say to get like a story line and stuff across.

14:59

It's actually really fascinating to see like somebody sitting in the

15:01

back going like, this is his best friend and he

15:03

can't stand the idea of harming him. And then you'll hear

15:05

the announcer go, this is his best friend. The idea

15:07

of hurting him would crush him inside. You're

15:11

like, wow, this is like next level show

15:13

business. Like everyone's

15:15

telling the story through this one person life

15:18

as it happens. One of the Marlin moments that I picked

15:20

up on this watch through. So there's a moment

15:22

where Truman is aware

15:24

that something's happening. He hasn't

15:27

yet had this amazing iconic

15:29

moment where he walks out into the middle of the street

15:31

and starts stopping traffic while we hear Philip

15:33

Glass music play. That has not yet happened. He's

15:35

just aware he's being watched and that there's

15:38

certain people that are on loop. He's aware of this. And

15:40

he goes into a store to find Marlin

15:42

who is stocking a vending machine and he's talking with Marlin

15:45

and Marlin's flying along, but

15:47

thinks it's funny. You can watch Marlin

15:49

stock the vending machine, wait until Truman looks

15:51

away, take the chocolate, set it back

15:53

down and restock it because no one knew

15:56

Truman was going to be in there. So he's just going

15:58

through the motions. And then you start watching. the rest of

16:00

the people, there's a one

16:02

of the extras outside that's walking the streets of

16:05

Sea Haven with one of those trash picker

16:07

uppers is picking up nothing. He's

16:09

just walking around picking up air. He's going

16:11

through the motions and it works perfectly fine if

16:13

he's an actual background person that you're not

16:15

paying attention to. When you start looking

16:17

at the background extras, you realize they're not doing

16:20

anything. They're just like, they're literally

16:22

just abstractions that are shambling around

16:24

doing human things that don't really have any

16:27

motivation to them. And most of the time they're

16:29

literally standing around until their head

16:31

pieces go like, Truman's coming down the road. Start

16:34

existing. Which

16:36

is crazy. And I love, speaking of Sea Haven,

16:38

I love the concept of Sea Haven because

16:41

an island town is the perfect

16:43

place for this to be. Because

16:46

island towns are, they're

16:49

insular, but they're dense. There's

16:51

houses on top of houses, people on top of people. And

16:54

they're beautiful so often people don't go on vacations

16:57

because they already live on the beach. And

16:59

there's all these elements. And

17:02

obviously it's not even really a seaside town. It's

17:04

in a giant dome in California, which

17:06

was the only part I found unbelievable

17:09

of the whole thing was they would never build

17:11

that in California. They would have drugged him and he'd wake

17:13

up in a dome in Idaho for the tax

17:15

incentives. Right. Yeah, that's true.

17:18

You're right. Yeah. I think you're

17:20

right on that. But even with Sea Haven, there's stuff I picked up on.

17:22

When he's walking through the, I think

17:24

it's through kind of the main square of town, there's an archway.

17:27

Come to Sea Haven. And the motto in Latin

17:30

is one for all and all for one,

17:32

which is really creepy when you think about it in

17:34

context of yes, that is exactly what our town,

17:37

we're all here for one guy and he's

17:39

here for all of us. So there's that

17:41

bit when

17:45

he, kind of the initial moment

17:47

that breaks the construct of reality is

17:50

the spotlight falls down. And I had thought

17:52

that it said like Truman cam number three or

17:54

something, but it doesn't. It was a star. Right.

17:58

It was literally all of the stars are. fake

18:00

and serious, which is the North Star has,

18:02

or no, obviously not the North Star, it's the brightest star, Polaris

18:05

is the North Star, it's the brightest star that happens to literally

18:08

fall out of the sky and crash next to him. And

18:10

then the moment he gets in the car, the radio

18:13

is confirming that like an airplane had pieces

18:15

falling off of it this morning. Yeah, yeah.

18:17

They're so good at that. Yeah, there's so much,

18:20

or like there's these little, like this, I'm

18:22

fascinated by the sea haven environment

18:24

they made where he's sitting on the beach before

18:27

he gets that amazing

18:29

one shaft of rain that's falling

18:31

on him because there's like a raid problem, which

18:34

is such wonderful if you watch it carefully when

18:36

the lightning is happening, the moon is illuminated

18:40

by the lightning, because the moon is only,

18:42

you know, I don't know, 1000 feet

18:44

away. Like in real life, let

18:46

me tell you, it has to be a really, really

18:49

bright lightning storm to reflect on the moon, it's

18:51

a long way off. So that's there. And then at

18:53

the very beginning, it might even be one of the first two

18:55

scenes, he's he's in

18:57

the morning, and he's eating breakfast and stuff.

19:00

And there's a bottle of vitamin D supplements, because

19:03

Truman has literally never been

19:05

in the sun. Not since he was a baby.

19:08

When they moved him there, he's always been inside

19:10

of a dome, he's been living inside of a very

19:12

large Epcot center. And all of

19:14

the lights are artificial, he's not getting actual

19:16

sunlight. So he has to have vitamin D supplements to

19:19

keep from getting Ricketts. Yeah. And of course, he's

19:21

told that that's just normal. Everybody has to take vitamin D

19:23

every morning. And everybody does have

19:25

to if they live in Sea Haven, because

19:29

they also see the sun maybe occasionally.

19:32

Right. Although, although they do

19:34

have elements built into it, if like, Marlin is

19:36

talking to him, and he's like, remember that time we

19:38

went camping in your backyard and like you wanted to

19:40

play polar instructor. So like

19:42

notice it's Truman's fault. It's always Truman's fault, whatever

19:45

the bad thing is that happens. You wanted

19:47

to play polar explorers. So we went camping in

19:49

your backyard. And I got so

19:52

cold that I got pneumonia and I was out of school

19:54

for a month, which is to say that I

19:56

just disappeared for a month because

19:59

I the actor was given a break and left.

20:01

And presumably the actors all

20:03

have these moments where they go on vacation or whatever

20:06

and they're really just leaving. Yeah,

20:09

and also like it's just anytime

20:11

he's curious about traveling, they're like, well,

20:14

airplanes get struck by lightning every single day.

20:16

Right. Like even in the travel agent's office,

20:18

they have a giant poster of a plane getting struck by

20:21

lightning and say, it could happen to you. Yes,

20:23

yeah, the little cage

20:25

subtleties. So like when the travel

20:28

lady comes in, she still has a makeup thing on

20:30

that she has to take off. Yeah, I love that.

20:33

There's that great poster that says, it could happen

20:35

to you, which I that made me laugh out loud

20:37

because no actual travel shop

20:40

in anywhere would ever be like, you

20:42

might die when he's when he's leaving.

20:45

When he and his wife are about to go over

20:47

the bridge to leave Sea Haven, the sign

20:49

says, you're now leaving Sea Haven. Are

20:52

you sure that's a good idea question? And

20:55

just anywhere that any

20:57

time he grass is a possibility, there's

20:59

little subtle things trying to bring him back to reality.

21:01

Like his mom says like, you know, when

21:03

your when your father died, when he drowned

21:06

because you wanted to go boating, I didn't blame you,

21:08

Truman. And I don't blame you now. And it's like, why

21:10

would you bring that up unless you blame the person

21:12

like you're planting those seeds in his mind of this

21:15

is your fault. Well, and they reference

21:17

like they also made him terrified of dogs on

21:19

purpose. Yeah, just because

21:21

the other thing is like when they make him terrified of dogs,

21:25

they just have them be really little and they have a rut weiler,

21:27

trained rut weiler barking his face a bunch and just

21:29

scares crap out of them. Right. Oh, I didn't pick

21:31

up on that. You're right. So they're like, it's not this isn't a

21:33

random thing. This is a very intentional they're trying

21:35

to like, develop

21:38

like a fear signal that they can just use whatever they

21:40

want. And they never really the only

21:42

time that that dog thing pays off is like the neighbor dog,

21:44

which they use to just test that he's still afraid

21:46

of them. So that means that that's just something they're keeping

21:48

in the chambers like, well, if he gets really unruly,

21:51

we got trained dogs, like we won't

21:53

cross the dogs. He'll play he sees a little

21:56

growl and a little spittle and he'll cry. And

21:58

it's like, that's so evil. Yes,

22:00

it's yeah. Oh

22:02

no for sure. It's this weird like It's

22:06

it's sweater vest or wellianism

22:09

it's like this weird combo of like or

22:11

well and brave new world because

22:13

it's all like consumer and it's It

22:16

has the veneer of choice I as we find

22:18

out over the course of the film They really don't ever

22:20

want Truman to have any choice and in fact

22:23

if he comes anywhere near it They will

22:25

risk killing him to stop him from leaving But

22:28

they want everybody else to think there's choice and they

22:30

want him to feel as though there's choice There's this

22:32

manufactured sense that you're here

22:34

because this is a great place you want to be here Well,

22:36

and and they just deny the

22:38

concept that literally for the entire

22:41

existence of man They've

22:43

wanted to experience more. There's always

22:45

a desire for more. There's always a

22:47

desire to travel There's always I mean like they

22:50

went the only thing they skipped was just

22:52

neutering him So that he wouldn't wander

22:54

away from home like a dog Yeah, like

22:56

literally as I was watching I was like I'm surprised

22:59

they didn't cut to like Kristoff going like I knew

23:01

we should have Gelled at him, you know Giving

23:04

him like like anti anti

23:06

testosterone pills or something just something

23:09

just like hobble them I mean

23:11

they come as close as they can they emotionally do all

23:14

of that Yeah, and and Kristoff's

23:16

a fascinating character because he you

23:19

know, there's this joke. I've directed a bunch of

23:21

movies That's my day job and the director

23:23

is God That's that's the the joke

23:25

and the truth of directing is like

23:28

you're kind of God along with the writer but like

23:30

the director is involved once actors

23:32

are involved and Kristoff

23:34

literally becomes God. He literally

23:37

lives in the moon in the sky. He lives in the sky

23:39

Yep, and he and he denies

23:42

your weather and whisper in the ears

23:44

of all of the other people Yeah, and

23:46

and and but the thing I love about him

23:48

is that he like but it seems like he believes

23:50

his own He believes his own vision

23:53

a rienus because everybody worships what he's made

23:55

but apparently When

23:57

the director was writing like backstory for

24:00

Christoph, the stuff that's not on screenbooks

24:02

just for the actors, he told the

24:04

actor, like, one of the things you did

24:06

that got you this job was you did

24:09

a documentary on homeless people

24:11

and you just followed homeless people around and filmed

24:14

them. And then you won a

24:16

bunch of awards for it. And I was like, wow,

24:18

okay, so human suffering, definitely

24:20

your forte. Like, you

24:22

just followed these homeless people around and then

24:25

sold it. That's kind of depressing.

24:28

One of the other deleted scenes that

24:30

gets into the Easter eggs is, hold on a

24:32

second, I think Wallace is going to sing. Wallace,

24:34

you want to sing?

24:37

There we go. This

24:41

means there's an ambulance in the neighborhood. Okay.

24:52

You show them. You

24:57

good? Okay.

25:02

So, one of the deleted scenes is, Truman

25:06

has a, like, a black diamond wedding ring

25:08

or something, like maybe an onyx ring. Yeah.

25:11

And one of the deleted scenes, that's a camera. I always

25:13

figured, yeah. Yeah, so there's a camera there. There's a

25:15

bit, and I couldn't quite pick up on this, but his dad

25:17

is wearing a similar ring in the scene where

25:19

he gets drowned. And then Truman

25:21

gives the ring back to him. Like,

25:23

I think when they meet, he, like, hands it or something

25:26

because he doesn't have it when he's on the boat. That's why they

25:28

can't find him. But, like, literally, there's a ring around

25:30

Truman's finger at all times. Once you start looking for cameras

25:32

in the film, like, I don't know if anybody's ever

25:34

attempted to count all of the visible cameras,

25:37

but they are proliferate. When you start looking for those

25:39

just little black domes, like a CCTV

25:42

camera, they're everywhere.

25:44

They're all over the film. And

25:46

they even reference that the

25:48

series, the show's effect

25:51

on society encouraged development

25:53

of smaller, better cameras and smaller,

25:55

better microphones, which would totally happen if it was

25:58

making, if they said it made the GDP. of a small

26:00

nation. Right. So it's like, of course

26:02

they would be R&D, like Sony would be like,

26:05

we got them, everybody's on small cameras now.

26:07

We got to be the people who sell the cameras to

26:09

the Truman Show, like we have to be. Well,

26:12

and back to your point of like the kind

26:14

of emotionally neutering of him and

26:17

the incredible mind control that's there, like

26:19

one of the things I picked up on is when he goes to the newsstand,

26:22

the options available to him are like cat

26:24

fancy, dog lover, and

26:26

like some glamour magazine. And

26:28

they're the only things that don't deal with

26:30

the news. They're just like kind of evergreen

26:34

fluff material. His

26:36

favorite TV show is I Love Lucy, a

26:39

film that concluded shooting in

26:41

like the late 60s, mid 70s or

26:43

so. They never say the date

26:46

in the film. It might be in one of

26:48

the newspapers, although I don't remember, but it's

26:51

entirely possible he thinks it's the 1950s. I'm

26:54

not clear that he actually thinks he lives in the

26:56

present time. He might think he lives in the 50s. It

26:59

would be, I would love

27:02

to just per drop into that universe and

27:04

talk to him and be like, who do you think the president is right now? Do

27:06

you think he's a president? Like it

27:08

could be that they're like, oh, it's not

27:11

important, you know, or like they just they've

27:13

never updated it. Nixon's still president, you

27:15

know, or whatever the thing is. I

27:17

assumed I Love Lucy was his favorite show because they

27:19

could afford to let him watch it on

27:22

the air because it's older. His older

27:24

content is cheaper to re-air. Right.

27:28

That would explain why all of the music on

27:30

the radio is classical

27:34

music that's in the public domain. Whenever

27:36

he's driving around, he's not hearing the Beatles. Like,

27:39

you're a director, correct me if I'm wrong. That is, that gets very

27:41

expensive very quickly. Like

27:44

I thought about trying to license

27:46

music on the political orphanage before and

27:49

just a basic inquiry into that. I

27:51

was like, oh, I either can't do this or

27:53

I just hope to have I hope to I have

27:55

to hope you don't sue me. These are my two options because for

27:57

me to do a mid-level podcast with

28:00

something from the Beatles would be like $100,000. It'd

28:03

be crazy. It's, that's actually

28:05

was just having a meeting about Weekly Spooky, cause

28:07

in October we did or are doing whatever,

28:11

31 episodes in 31 days, which I don't ever recommend

28:13

anyone in podcasting attempt by

28:15

the way. But I wanted to get this song.

28:18

It wasn't even a famous song. It was just a track from

28:20

a famous library of music. And

28:23

the prices they were quoting me, I was like, you know, I even

28:25

asked Lee, I was like, do you guys understand that

28:27

like very few podcasts

28:30

with the exception of like the Joe Rogan experience

28:32

or something, it can afford like $200 an episode to

28:35

use us a piece of music that nobody even recognizes.

28:38

Like I wanted it because I recognized it and

28:41

I thought it was cool. I was hoping they were gonna say like, hey,

28:43

the hell with it. $400 you can use it for the rest of your life.

28:45

I thought that's what they would say because nobody

28:47

cares in one song, but no, it was like $100 an

28:50

episode. And I was like,

28:52

yeah, ad revenue is hopefully that much per episode.

28:55

Like we can't, you know, it's not worth it. So no,

28:57

it would be insurmountable. But on top of that,

29:00

once the Truman, there's this point where in successive

29:03

media where once you get so successful,

29:06

now everybody owes you something. It's

29:08

not about, oh, we don't wanna license

29:10

that. It's about they should pay us to play

29:13

their music. Like when I did

29:15

my first television series that did syndication,

29:18

I was taught all about Greeking, you know, hiding labels

29:20

and hiding those things. And I asked, I was like,

29:22

is it, you know, you mean because we don't wanna get sued for

29:25

trademark or whatever. And they're like, oh, no, no, no. If a

29:27

Coca-Cola is in the background of a scene, like they

29:29

put it in the world. So they

29:32

really can't win an argument unless you slander

29:34

it. It's screw them. They

29:36

should be paying to have their logo in here.

29:38

It's spite. We cover up the car

29:40

logos because what if when it's airing, Toyota

29:43

pays. And then they're like, why are we seeing a Dodge

29:45

Ram logo? Why is there a big Dodge Ram

29:47

logo in the shot? You know what, what's funny is I

29:49

actually feel that way if not that anybody

29:51

would ever see this, but if you ever see me on the street,

29:54

you will notice that there's nothing I wear that has a brand

29:56

name on it. And it's because I like,

29:58

it just really, I. hate it when I see

30:02

on me, I don't care. I don't care. Other people dress

30:04

however you want. You're an adult, I support you.

30:06

But for me, like I don't want glasses

30:08

that say Gucci or anything on them, because I'm like,

30:11

if I'm if I'm advertising your product, you should

30:13

be paying me I'm not going to pay you for

30:16

the of the ability

30:18

to show I can afford your product. That to me is very odd.

30:20

So I intentionally get products that

30:22

don't have labels on them. I don't like it. Because

30:25

I just anyway, that's a side note. Oh,

30:27

sure. But I understand that. Yeah. Because then he makes you think

30:29

of Wayne's role when he's wearing only Adidas

30:32

everything. Yeah, hat, the shirt, gloves,

30:34

the feet. Yeah. Yeah. Can I

30:36

give you the weirdest deepest cut that

30:38

I found in this entire film? I'm dying for

30:41

it. So when he's when he's on the boat, the

30:44

towards the end of the film, he has escaped,

30:46

he successfully escaped, they've messed

30:49

with the circadian rhythm of everybody that lives in the

30:51

dome, because the sun has been brought up. Like,

30:54

like it's, it's, you know, 3am and the midnight

30:56

sun is showing full like full noon.

30:59

People are always like bring up the sun and they're like, they're

31:01

like for him. They've tried to kill him on you

31:03

know, in the boat, like Christophe basically was like,

31:06

I am okay with him dying, because that will complete

31:08

my artistic vision. I would rather do that. All

31:10

this stuff has happened. The boat he's on is 139. That's

31:13

like you see these numbers 139. I looked

31:16

up, this could be complete heat

31:18

and bullshit, but I looked up Psalm 139.

31:29

You have searched me, Lord, and you know me, you

31:31

know, with when I sit and when I rise, you

31:34

perceive my thoughts from afar, you

31:36

discern my going out and my lying

31:39

down, you are familiar with all my

31:41

ways. Such knowledge is too wonderful

31:43

for me, too lofty for me to attain.

31:46

Where can I go from your spirit? Where

31:48

can I flee from your presence? If

31:50

I go up to the heavens, you are there. If

31:53

I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

31:55

If I rise on the wings of the dawn,

31:58

if I settle on the far

31:59

side, you are there.

31:59

side of the sea, even

32:02

there your hand will guide me, your

32:04

right hand will hold me fast. If

32:06

I'll say, surely the darkness will

32:08

hide me and the light become night around

32:10

me, even the darkness will not be dark

32:12

to you. The night will shineth like

32:14

the day where darkness is as light

32:17

to you." That's

32:20

a pretty big coincidence, if that's a coincidence.

32:22

I mean... It's kind of on the nose, right?

32:24

Like I feel like it's very

32:26

specific to this kind of God as panopticon

32:29

character. Oh yeah. I mean, in

32:31

this movie, so as an atheist, personally

32:34

being an atheist, I found the movie makes a

32:37

lot of points of the moral

32:39

problems I have with the concept of a personal God.

32:42

I generally don't believe because I'm a big science

32:45

person. I think that if you have faith, that's your thing.

32:48

But I'm not into faith so much. But

32:50

I've always said, I don't know, if there was a personal

32:52

God, a thought process

32:55

about why I should suffer and why I

32:57

should fall and why I should lose,

33:01

I would take it personally. I don't want to take probability

33:03

personally. I like the concept that

33:05

sometimes bad things just happen and

33:07

you got to have a stiff upper lip and you got to go through

33:09

it. That

33:12

I find more comforting than the idea, like, listen,

33:14

a guy in the sky said, you

33:16

need cancer, okay? And

33:19

he loves you. And an odd thing

33:21

is, like, this sounds like my high school girlfriend. She did not

33:23

love me. She did not make those kinds of

33:25

decisions well for me. She just wanted to hurt

33:27

me for whatever reason. So it's like, he's

33:29

kind of God and he's kind of, he's

33:32

got that sociopathicness. It's like, I

33:34

mean, you've written a bunch of stories

33:36

and stuff. Do you ever have moments where you think, like, man,

33:39

I'm glad this character isn't real that I'm

33:41

putting them through? Because to make it interesting, they have

33:43

to suffer a little bit. It's fascinating

33:46

you should bring that up. I don't think that the Truman

33:48

Show was written as a religious exegesis. I

33:50

think if it's a commentary on anything, it's probably

33:52

a commentary on media and consumerism.

33:55

But it is rife with religious imagery.

33:58

I direct everybody back to Psalm 139. which

34:00

I think was intentional based on how spot on it is.

34:02

Oh, definitely. From a religious perspective,

34:06

hello folks, today I will be playing the part of the Buddhist,

34:08

and Enrique will be playing the part of the atheist.

34:11

I used to be Eastern Orthodox

34:13

Christian, and for me, losing that

34:16

monotheism or that theism in general

34:18

was very traumatic. It's very traumatic to go from,

34:20

I believe there's a point to all

34:22

of this, and there's a higher power that's orchestrating

34:25

all of it to, oh shit, it's just chaos

34:27

and infinity and a screaming void, what

34:30

I find fascinating is this show

34:33

is the opposite, where we don't know

34:35

anything about the religious proclivities of the islander

34:37

Truman, presumably it's something very

34:41

broadly acceptable. He's a Methodist or Presbyterian

34:43

or something. I'd be very surprised. All the same though,

34:45

he is going from, I thought my life was

34:48

unscrutinized and random

34:50

to, actually there is a higher power

34:53

that is directly involved in all of my shit,

34:55

that is watching me and orchestrating events specifically

34:58

to my life, and it's terrifying. It's

35:00

terrifying to go from, I am

35:03

anonymous and nothing has any purpose

35:05

and that's fine, to no, there

35:07

is a higher power and it is all orchestrated

35:10

around you, and it's very scary. It's almost

35:12

like an atheist fever dream to go,

35:15

there's a higher power and I didn't want one.

35:17

Yeah, and it also feeds like

35:19

if you were schizophrenic. You're

35:22

like, I swear everybody watches me when

35:24

I go into a place. I

35:26

swear the world is just for me. Yeah,

35:28

no, I think it's one of those funny things where this

35:32

perfectly fits a narcissist. I imagine taking

35:35

like an Eric Cartman character and going, I

35:38

want to tell you the world is entirely about

35:40

you, everybody is watching you, you're the most important

35:42

person, and he'd be like, I already knew this, yes, agreed.

35:45

Yeah, I have

35:47

all of this. Yeah, there's that,

35:50

there's almost like Gnosticism

35:53

built in here, so like Gnosticism, in

35:56

my experience Gnosticism means whatever you want

35:58

it to mean when you just don't. want,

36:00

you don't like, you like the idea of a god, but you

36:02

don't like the specific Christian narrative, then you just go with

36:04

a Gnostics thought, whatever I currently think, blah,

36:07

blah, blah, blah, blah. That said though, like one of the strains

36:09

of Gnosticism is that God

36:11

is kind

36:14

of distant and has been eclipsed by the demiurge.

36:16

So like imagine that God creates

36:19

the universe and Satan takes

36:22

over Earth, he's the lieutenant in charge

36:24

of Earth, and he purports

36:26

to be God. And so there's a real God in

36:29

the distance, and there's a false God who

36:31

has created an elaborate fake world

36:33

that we live in. And that part

36:35

of the theology of the Gnostics is you've got

36:37

to get past the false God to get to the real

36:39

God. So there is this like artifice

36:42

that the false God has created, and that is

36:45

Christoph. Christoph is the demiurge. He is

36:47

the false God that has created everything. And

36:49

I think that like, I don't think the movie is pushing any

36:51

kind of a necessarily atheist

36:54

bent. I think that that's what I got out of it

36:56

personally. Yeah. Because I think there's a, I

36:58

mean, I'm a big believer that like the moment

37:00

the art leaves the page or gets released or published

37:05

or whatever, no longer matters what the creator

37:07

was necessarily. That's just trivia. What the creator

37:10

intended was this. But anyway, what I actually got

37:12

from it was this, it becomes ours.

37:15

Sure. And like, I'll throw in the Buddhist

37:17

slant on this. In the life

37:19

of the Buddha, the Buddha

37:22

is a prince living in India and his

37:24

father wants to protect him from the travails of

37:26

life. So he spends his childhood in a walled

37:28

garden inside the palace where

37:30

he is kept from all of the pain and misery

37:33

of the world. And it's not until he leaves

37:35

it that he happens to chance upon human suffering and is

37:37

deeply disturbed. He didn't know that aging existed.

37:40

He didn't realize that poverty existed.

37:42

And so I look at this and my Buddhist brand

37:44

goes, oh, this is like the

37:47

Buddha has been locked in the palace. Like

37:49

he's been insulated from human suffering and he's

37:52

getting his awakening to

37:54

the human suffering towards the end. And he finally leaves

37:56

the palace and confronts it. So if you

37:58

were going to make this into a Buddhist exegesis, This would be

38:00

part one and part two would be Jim

38:03

Carrey becomes like an extreme Ascetic

38:06

who like starves himself and then part

38:08

three He realizes that you can let go

38:10

of suffering by not craving things so on and so forth

38:12

But there is there like I don't think

38:14

they came up with that at all by the way But I know I

38:16

projected audience it's out of the out of the stable

38:19

and besides the real true Buddha is played by Keanu

38:21

Reeves So yes,

38:24

it's actually a good telling of the of the Siddhartha

38:26

story. Wait, I have not what is this? Oh You

38:29

didn't know that Keanu Reeves literally played Siddhartha.

38:32

No, I thought you were like alluding to the matrix or something

38:36

Was that movie I think was called little Buddha Okay,

38:39

and then you should watch it. It was it's a pretty

38:41

I will check that out it's a yeah,

38:43

it's a 1993 film and it's Keanu Reeves

38:46

plays Siddhartha and

38:49

basically, it's about how it's this concept that like

38:51

the the Buddha has died and Now

38:54

they're looking for the reincarnation and they think we found

38:56

him in this little white boy So

38:59

now they are kindly explaining

39:01

to little white boy the story of Buddha to

39:03

see if maybe it's him And it's

39:06

a really sweet movie. It was like very Sun

39:08

Dancy right at the beginning of like that

39:10

art film era But yeah in the

39:12

in the flashbacks to the story It's totally

39:14

Keanu Reeves and he does a really good job

39:17

in my opinion I think you should definitely check

39:19

that out. You'd enjoy the hell out of it I will check

39:21

that out before I lose track of

39:23

all the religious strains we could do I think one that is very

39:26

salient to the Truman Show is the Parable

39:30

of Plato's cave In

39:33

Plato's cave everybody is in

39:35

a cave they're chained to the wall and Everything

39:38

that they understand about reality is the shadows

39:40

that they see on the wall they understand basically life

39:42

is a bunch of shadow puppets and that's what they understand

39:44

and Somebody is able to get out

39:46

of his shackles and get out of the cave and

39:49

see This incredibly vivid

39:51

world that is at first blinding and then

39:53

goes back down and is like guys you got to get

39:56

unshackled I need like you are not understanding

39:58

reality you are understanding this vague

40:01

approximation of reality that's warped based

40:03

on all of this. And so we've got a touch of that, except

40:05

in this one, everybody got left out,

40:07

everybody left the cave but one guy. And

40:10

it's an inverted Plato's cave. Everybody's coming

40:12

back in going, no, no, no, that's reality. You're good.

40:15

You don't need to, don't think about this. You don't want to leave the cave. The

40:17

cave is just fine. And it begs this kind of deeper question

40:19

that Christoph poses to Truman, which

40:22

is essentially, I

40:24

Christoph am telling you it is better to

40:26

be happy and ignorant than to know

40:28

the truth and be sad and suffer. And

40:31

Truman says, fuck you, I would

40:33

rather know the essence of reality. I

40:35

don't want to live in a velvet prison. I

40:37

want to live in reality even if that means that I get

40:39

colds and I stub my toe. And it kind

40:42

of begs this deeper truth of like, what

40:45

is that relationship between happiness and ignorance

40:47

versus truth and suffering? How much

40:50

suffering are you really willing to entail

40:52

in order to get to the truth? And what is its benefit to

40:54

you? Well, and Truman never got to experience,

40:57

never got to really experience love. They

40:59

forced his love interest on him. And there's

41:02

a whole other thing of like the weird quasi

41:04

prostitution of that actress. I

41:07

mean, she has to have sex with him and

41:09

live with him. But like there's clearly something-

41:11

At one point they allude to like trying for a baby

41:13

before he's been written out of the script. They're

41:16

going to have a baby in it. And I really

41:18

think that when I think about what

41:20

Christ, when Christoph says like, we're going to have her leave

41:23

him and we're going to introduce a new love interest.

41:25

It's like, well, yeah, it'd be easy if you destroy

41:27

him emotionally in every way and potentially financially

41:30

they can have it be a nasty divorce. He could have

41:32

to live in a one bedroom apartment. That's sweet,

41:34

sweet kids. Like that is must

41:36

see television. You could have all

41:39

that happen and then he meets a woman and it's way

41:41

easier for him to fall in love with her because

41:43

she shows up and is literally the

41:46

opposite of her in every way because she's

41:48

written to be the opposite of her

41:50

in every single way. So the

41:53

idea of never

41:55

knowing truth is so deeply offensive

41:57

to me. The idea of having somebody else-

42:00

not get the opportunity to know truth is so

42:02

deeply offensive. Yeah, I think that's

42:04

the thing. Yeah, it's that that that withholding

42:07

it from somebody else. I'm a bit of a coward

42:09

Enrique. And so like I could

42:12

like like if I don't know, like an

42:14

angel comes down and is like you want to open that I'm

42:16

telling you, I'm telling you right now you don't want to know

42:18

what's in it. It's gonna bring you nothing but sadness.

42:21

It's like, let me just say this, you think right

42:23

now the universe is a series of probabilistic

42:25

nothings. It is a screaming void.

42:28

And if you open that you will net like it will

42:30

eradicate any hope you have I'd be like, you

42:32

keep that box. I don't think I'm gonna open that box. I don't

42:34

need to know that right? But also I don't know that like,

42:36

but if it was like, yeah, we're gonna basically

42:39

lock a guy in an apartment and not let him know that France

42:41

exists because we think it's funny very different situation.

42:43

Oh, that sounds nice actually. No,

42:46

but that's a really

42:48

interesting point because I if I was told

42:50

that I would be like, well, we'll see what I think

42:53

because I'm just I have this weird belief

42:55

that I that my opinion it will

42:57

be my own. Hmm. I've

43:00

always had like my when I don't

43:02

I'm a so my day job is directing like

43:04

low budget features. And they vary

43:07

from like Christian or not Christian, but like comedy movies,

43:09

Christmas movies, horror movies,

43:11

dramas, whatever. But when I write them myself,

43:13

they're always very dark. Like even

43:15

if it's a like the like I did a movie

43:17

about a talking dog and it was incredibly dark. I mean,

43:21

it's funny. And in the end, everybody's happy. Airboat

43:23

the revenge. Exactly. But

43:25

it's about like loss and pain. And

43:28

I wrote it this little kid movie,

43:30

after my best friend had committed suicide. And

43:34

literally, when I was writing the outline for

43:36

the actual scenes, there was a mother daughter

43:38

scene. And in the outline, I literally just put, put

43:41

your thoughts about him. Like, that's all

43:43

I put in mind the notes to myself. Because then you know,

43:45

when you write the dialogue, you have to fill in the meat.

43:48

So I like so my attitude

43:50

will be like, I'm going to be the judge if I can handle that

43:53

or not, I might be able to make it pretty funny. I might

43:55

be able to make it endearing later, like I might be I

43:57

might be happier than you think. What do you even know? Are those wings

43:59

even real? You kind of look, I don't know, you white

44:01

people say a lot of things. That would be my, that

44:05

would be my go-to, but I can appreciate

44:07

that, that level of cowardice as well. Well,

44:09

it's kind of, you know what? Like years ago when I got

44:11

my start in television, um, I was working

44:14

on a show called the independence and one, and

44:16

ISIS was a big thing at that time. And,

44:19

uh, uh, there had just been a beheading. ISIS

44:21

had done a video where like we would show the

44:23

beginning of it on the show where there's 10 captives

44:26

on a horizon and there's guys with knives to their

44:28

throats, uh, and, uh, they

44:31

had like, like, apparently it's like

44:33

not, not just split the throat, but like sawed it off with

44:35

a, with a serrated edge. And they had all

44:37

this Matt Welch, who was the host on the show had watched

44:40

it. And, uh, like just told

44:42

me, he's like, you don't want to watch that. You're not going

44:44

to get that out of your head. Um, like if you

44:46

watch that, you can't unsee it. And I was like, fair

44:49

point. I don't want to watch that. I know what happened.

44:51

I don't need to know any more details to it. So occasionally

44:53

things like that are like, there might be a film where

44:56

somebody's like, he can like, I know you

44:58

very well, this film, you're really not going to enjoy,

45:01

and I think like, you're not like coming

45:03

out of the pandemic. I was not in a good head space. And

45:05

there were a couple of shows that my friends were like,

45:08

this is a show you would love in about three

45:10

years. This is not a show you should watch right

45:13

now. And I'd be like, all right. And

45:15

that's a fair thing too. You know, now

45:17

if you were going to rally

45:19

against ISIS as a leader, maybe

45:22

you needed to see that reality so that you could have that

45:24

full blown guttural. But, but

45:26

if you're going to comment about it on a TV show, it's like, and

45:29

they beheaded a bunch of people and it was awful. And you're like, get

45:31

it, got it. Horrible beheadings are bad. Already

45:33

new. Onboard. There's also just the simplicity

45:36

thing of like, I am still making the

45:38

choice for myself. I am still, I

45:40

am given the choice. Do you want to know this truth?

45:42

Do you want to see this thing? And I go, no, I don't think I'll

45:44

be happier for it. That's very different than, do

45:47

you want to restrict this truth from somebody else? Or better

45:49

yet, do you want them to not even know that the option

45:51

is there for them and take that agency

45:53

away from them, which is all Truman's universe.

45:56

And a lot of the, a lot of the like

45:59

social engineering. that's really heavy-handed

46:01

in the Truman Show feels almost like the Supreme

46:04

Court came up with it or Congress

46:06

came up with it, you know, like the way they tell you

46:08

not to smoke cigarettes, but they try not to say don't

46:10

smoke cigarettes. They're just saying like, look, we're

46:12

not saying don't smoke cigarettes, but like your lung, here's

46:14

what your lung will look like. And you're like, yeah, and

46:17

they're like, and it's right on the packaging, but we are not saying

46:19

we want you to have a choice. Oh,

46:22

okay. So I love this. This is like,

46:24

like if Cass Sunstein were evil

46:27

at all powerful, the the

46:29

the famous author of nudge, so like

46:31

anybody unfamiliar with this, like Cass Sunstein, very

46:34

big on like opt

46:36

in, opt out stuff. Like I the other day,

46:38

I had to get my driver's license renewed. And I was listening

46:40

to the guy before me, where the

46:43

person that was about to take his photo, when are you an organ

46:45

donor? And he went no, and she went okay, and just kept moving

46:47

on. What Cass Sunstein would say is, you

46:50

want to have everybody be an organ donor automatically,

46:52

and they check a box if they don't want to be so they have the

46:55

option, they totally have the ability to leave.

46:57

But the default state is you're an organ donor, and you're

46:59

gonna you're gonna triple the amount of organ donors, which I'm

47:01

fine with. My editor

47:04

Eric thinks this is the most vile manipulative

47:07

drivel in the world. He hates it. The

47:09

Truman Show will probably give him nightmares. This

47:12

is his idea of Cass Sunstein, or

47:15

who I like again, but like, like this is my mind,

47:17

this is dark Cass Sunstein for Eric, I think it

47:19

would all be the same thing. And you're right,

47:21

it is this nudge taken to the

47:24

nth degree of, okay, we're not gonna

47:26

like, lock you up if you do this thing,

47:28

but we're gonna put so many hurdles

47:30

in front of you that you really, really, really

47:32

have to want to do it if you're gonna do it. Well, and

47:34

there's that moment when they flash back to him as a little

47:37

kid. And he says, I want to be an explorer

47:39

like Christopher Columbus, and they both teacher

47:41

pulls the map down and goes, everything's been discovered,

47:43

it would be a waste of your time and your whole life. Nobody

47:46

does that anymore. Who cares? Isn't the weather nice?

47:48

Yeah, yeah. Dude, that's a

47:50

child that you're just like stomping on

47:53

any like hope in their eyes.

47:55

Well, like, because I do

47:57

feel like the media is a big element of this.

47:59

It's not. It's not just the, I

48:01

think that the prima facie big thing

48:03

is look at what, how

48:06

unhinged and amoral

48:09

a media complex

48:12

can get in the pursuit of ratings. That's kind of

48:14

the first and foremost, but the secondary element

48:16

that I find much more insidious is the sort

48:18

of sense of like manufactured

48:20

consent, a la Noam Chomsky, this

48:22

idea of we're going to create false

48:25

dichotomies for you. We're going to have

48:27

controlled opposition. We're going

48:29

to have a, we're going to give you the sense

48:31

of agency by, by doing what adults

48:34

do with little kids of like, you could

48:36

either have broccoli or you can have carrots. Which one

48:38

would you like? We're not going to say you can eat whatever

48:40

you want or you could, you could have, you know,

48:42

a candy bar or carrot. We're going to, we're going to pretend

48:45

that you have more agency than you've got by

48:47

controlling the choices so that you feel as though

48:49

you're not in a cage. You want to be on the north side

48:51

of the cage or the south side of the cage. You're still in a cage,

48:54

right? And like that sense of like, we're manipulating

48:57

the world in order to deprive

48:59

you of agency without your knowledge or consent.

49:02

That is the deeply insidious part to me. Yeah,

49:04

absolutely. And, and, and the reality

49:06

of, of, of that is so clear

49:08

though, as the movie progresses, Truman

49:10

basically goes insane. One of my

49:12

favorite moments in the whole film is

49:14

when they're showing the control room. And

49:17

like you were saying, Christophe kind of is like,

49:19

let him drown. Like that would be better. And

49:22

there's literally that moment where

49:25

Paul Giannatt says, I think it was, yeah,

49:27

it says, he's just like Giannatt,

49:29

he's like, he's, he's like, he's going to drown

49:32

and he doesn't even care. He doesn't even

49:34

care. He's like, that's, that's his reaction.

49:36

He's like, I won't do it. And then he hits the button for him.

49:38

And I'm like, that is why it's so hellish

49:41

is yeah, he does not even care. He

49:43

would rather drown than live a constant

49:46

lie for his own benefit. And air quotes,

49:48

like, cause the whole lie is so that he can

49:51

have an interesting life. But the fact

49:53

is what makes our lives interesting is

49:55

not always what we like about our lives. You

49:58

know, we, we, we. We continue

50:00

to move forward no matter what happens to

50:02

us. So at some point when life is good,

50:05

it's like, well, the horrible

50:07

thing that happened to me or to a loved one

50:09

or whatever, that is a part of my past. So I guess

50:11

it's in some way tied to where I am now. And

50:14

it's hard to reconcile those thoughts, but

50:16

the idea that all of a sudden they were not in any

50:18

way even vaguely random, that they were chosen

50:21

bit by bit so that you would

50:23

use a friggin' specific

50:25

fabric softener. That's

50:29

where I can see, like, you know, I think I'll drown too.

50:31

I think, you know what, let me get on that

50:33

boat and drown with you, man. That's

50:36

just hell. That's such hell.

50:39

As a side note, you bring up Paul Giamatti,

50:41

who plays the, I don't know, the assistant director

50:44

or something, some guy on set. One

50:46

of the things I also noticed in this run is when

50:49

Truman starts to go crazy, that is to say

50:51

he becomes aware of the intense disconnect

50:53

between reality as told and reality

50:56

as understood, and that begins to

50:58

manifest. You look at Paul Giamatti, he's

51:00

drinking a coffee, reading the classifieds in

51:02

the booth, which

51:05

is to say he's looking at, like, employment ads.

51:07

Like he's aware of the writings on the wall and he's starting to

51:09

check that out. But, like, they don't say anything about it. It's

51:12

just the artifice is beginning to crumble. And

51:14

also I think that the people who work there, you notice

51:17

that there's not that many people working

51:20

in the moon, you know, where

51:22

all the control is happening. I think that's

51:24

because it's a cult atmosphere. I think

51:27

that everybody who works directly with Kristoff

51:29

is addicted to continuing

51:32

the program just like he is. I think that that's

51:34

a really important thing because when I look at them, it's

51:36

like, yeah, there's only like seven people working up there. They

51:38

all wear the same kind of clothes. You

51:41

know, they're all wearing like black turtle necks and stuff. They're

51:43

all wearing the Steve Jobs profit look. Yes.

51:46

And I feel like Giamatti might have been a character who literally like

51:48

every week he'd be like, I don't know if I can

51:51

live with that decision. Like, but you know what? I'm

51:53

working for another place to work because

51:55

I don't love the decisions we're making. And then he just keeps

51:57

executing the decisions they're making and going, yeah, yeah,

51:59

yeah. But it's just because I

52:01

got to get my mortgage low enough. That

52:04

was kind of the sense I got from him was that he was

52:06

like, he wanted to resist,

52:08

but he's trapped too. Which

52:11

by the way is a recurrent feature

52:13

of working in entertainment and working in news.

52:17

I started off on the independence fine

52:19

show. Nothing bad to say about the independence. It

52:21

was on Fox Business. Financial

52:23

network, pretty good. On the same

52:26

floor as Fox News, I have a lot of problems

52:28

with Fox News then and now. Like

52:31

most of the production staff was apolitical. They were

52:34

just like, look, I got a gig as a video

52:36

operator. But then you started getting into

52:38

the right side of it. It's like,

52:41

okay, to what extent can

52:43

I get my hands dirty here and be

52:45

ethical about this at night? Yeah,

52:48

that happens. I think you're right about the cold

52:50

atmosphere too. I probably brought this up on

52:52

the show before. If I do, I apologize to

52:55

listeners. One of my friends from college,

52:57

Kerry, had been a contestant in

52:59

The Bachelor. And

53:03

horrible. The story she described

53:05

to me. I've never watched The Bachelor,

53:07

but they've got one guy and like a harem

53:09

that he chooses in between, I guess.

53:13

What Kerry told me was that you couldn't have

53:15

your phone with you because the last thing they wanted

53:17

you to do was be able to call your mom

53:20

and have your mom shatter the illusion of this artifice

53:22

and go like, honey, this is just a fun thing

53:24

you're doing. You're going to be there for a week. It's

53:27

so unlikely this is going to be the man you marry.

53:29

This is just an opportunity to be on camera and

53:32

have a fun time. It doesn't matter. If you're not

53:34

having fun, just leave. It's fine. If you're not having

53:36

fun, just don't participate. They'll cut you out on your – the

53:38

last thing they want is anybody

53:40

in that person's deep emotional

53:42

space to be able to put things in perspective.

53:44

So you can't have any contact with the outside world. They

53:47

would never give them adequate

53:49

food. They'd give them appetizers, but they would

53:51

never give them an actual meal because they didn't

53:53

want them to be sated

53:56

enough to make good decisions. We're constantly

53:58

giving them alcohol and – most insidiously,

54:01

rather than saying, would you want another drink or handing

54:03

you a drink, they would just fill up your drink without telling you. So

54:05

you'd just be standing there, they'd come by, they'd fill up your wine,

54:07

so you couldn't really keep track of how much you had to drink.

54:10

So you watch people in reality television when they go absolutely

54:12

nuts. Oh, the other bit, this is the fun bit. This is like

54:14

the Viet Cong torture tactic bit. When she

54:16

would try to go to sleep, and she'd

54:19

like leave set and go to her hotel

54:21

room, within 10 minutes, somebody would knock on the door

54:23

and go, hey, Carrie, we think we're gonna need you in a few

54:25

minutes, can you come back down again? So they would very

54:27

intentionally deprive all of the women of sleep. So

54:30

they are, let's take a checklist here. They're deprived

54:32

of sleep, they have no contact with the outside

54:34

world, they're not given adequate nutrition and they're

54:36

given alcohol. No shit they go

54:39

nuts on camera. Like when you watch somebody on a reality

54:41

television show going absolutely crazy, this is

54:43

very intentional to put them in a state

54:46

where they go nuts. They probably wouldn't

54:48

do that in their day to day life. My

54:50

experience, I've worked a few reality gigs.

54:53

We were actually told by producers, not

54:55

anything that was particularly insidious, but just like basic

54:57

psychology, we were told, look, the best stuff

54:59

you're gonna get is at the end of a 13 hour day.

55:03

Because we get their ego, their ego will

55:05

be depleted. People put up shields

55:08

to maintain what they want the

55:10

world to see, even celebrities. They

55:12

want the world to see something. But after about 14

55:15

hours of just constantly doing stuff

55:17

and being awake and being aware and being on

55:19

camera, they start to be real enough that

55:21

we can harvest something interesting. Even

55:24

if it's not something sensational, even

55:27

if it's just good dialogue between two people,

55:30

it's like all of a sudden, oh wow, they're talking about something that isn't just like

55:32

the weather football or how great they are. And

55:35

that's, I mean, all

55:37

media is an element of manipulation.

55:39

When you're working with actors, I

55:42

like actors overall, but sometimes,

55:45

the amount of validation they need, the amount of

55:47

hand holding they need, because they'll be

55:49

like, I didn't really like that line reading. You're

55:51

like, no, no, no, you're like the best I've ever seen in my life.

55:54

And they're like, really? I'm like, yeah, and the

55:56

reason they believe you when you say something like that, is because they

55:58

want you to say that.

55:59

You know, it's just kind of, so that's the other

56:02

weird

56:03

element of like Truman Show is like everybody

56:06

else, I'm sure Christoph

56:08

has to like convince to stay every now and

56:10

then because they're like, look, I want to leave the show. Like

56:12

my best friend isn't my best friend. I never see

56:14

my family. He's like, but think about how

56:16

happy everyone is. Think

56:19

about how happy Truman is to have. Even

56:21

how much joy you bring to other people. Like

56:23

if you want to leave, I'm sure you could do a bunch of commercials.

56:26

Like if you want to just do like, you know, crest stuff

56:29

and like maybe you could get a bit part on

56:31

a sitcom till you age out

56:34

or you could stay here and you

56:36

could, you know, actually like do something

56:38

amazing that's different than all other

56:41

entertainment in all of human history and you could

56:43

be a part, people will be writing books, but they're writing books

56:45

about you now. Yeah. And

56:47

I also want to mention another thing I caught when

56:49

he was talking to his best friend was he mentioned like that,

56:52

you know, he was like Truman, I get it. Like everybody wants to be somebody.

56:54

I mean, we all sit on the can and pretend we're being interviewed

56:57

on Sea Haven tonight. And I was like, there's

56:59

no national show about famous

57:01

people. It's Sea Haven tonight, a town

57:03

with like what? A thousand people in

57:06

it or something? Like

57:08

the level of layers of

57:11

keep him away, keep

57:13

the show interesting is really

57:16

truly devious and like it's

57:18

amazing and a bit depressing. I know that the original

57:21

concept was a lot sadder. It

57:23

was more sci-fi, wasn't it? Like they were. Yeah,

57:26

it was like a facsimile

57:28

of New York City and it was somebody who had just, who was like 18

57:31

years old. So they were like going through adolescence

57:33

and becoming more like pissed off

57:35

that they felt like the world wasn't real, but it actually

57:38

wasn't real. So that

57:40

was my understanding of like how it went. But Peter

57:43

Weir wanted Jim Carrey so bad. He was like, I think

57:45

we should go with more of a midlife crisis kind of thing,

57:47

which I think was really smart too. Because

57:49

the audience was that age. The

57:51

ideal audience for that movie was that age anyway,

57:54

let alone that Jim Carrey was, you know, in his thirties

57:56

at that time. So I like

57:59

the way they. I like that you're right. Like, it's

58:01

not a hilarious movie, but

58:03

it's a funny, heavy movie.

58:07

It's got just enough sugar to get the medicine

58:09

to go down real good. And at the

58:11

end of it, you feel good because it ends in a really

58:13

feel-good way. And that's the thing I love

58:15

the most is at the end, everyone

58:17

who's obsessed with watching the show cheers

58:19

that he got to be happy,

58:22

and they don't mind that they can't watch him anymore.

58:26

And when people in the moon, about half of them are

58:28

livid because it's over, because

58:30

they were not omniscient and omnipresent. They

58:33

were just pulling strings. And

58:35

every time Christophe had to make a decision in a hurry, it

58:38

was so trite and hacky.

58:40

Like he found out when- Amnesia. Yeah,

58:43

yeah, amnesia. His dad has amnesia. And people

58:45

were like, amazing. And all I'm thinking is like, that's as the world

58:48

turns stuff, man. Like that's not impressive.

58:50

You know, like, oh, you don't want him

58:52

to, you don't want him to want to be on boats and see a drown

58:55

his dad. That's

58:59

not genius. That's just trauma

59:01

mining. Tell

59:04

you what, I think

59:06

I've got to go ahead and wrap up the episode because

59:08

my dog is once again singing

59:10

to ambulances. That howl means

59:13

the show is about over. But

59:15

I've loved talking to you about this. You're really, really great to talk

59:17

to movies about, and I love the Truman Show. But noting

59:19

that my dog, who is now cancer

59:21

free- Congratulations, by the way. Thank

59:24

you very much, is singing to ambulances.

59:26

I am aware that your dog is similarly

59:28

going through cancer treatment. So who is your

59:31

dog? What is happening there, Enrique? So

59:33

my dog, Chicano, he's an 11 year old rescue.

59:35

I adopted him when he was six. And

59:38

he was diagnosed with cancer about

59:40

a year and four months ago. And

59:43

we cut it out and we thought we had it beat. And

59:46

then it came back and we cut it out and we thought

59:48

we had it beat because it was an a different part of his body. And

59:50

then we realized that it was systemic. He had cancer

59:53

in his system. No tumors. We'd

59:55

removed the tumors, but they were just going to keep coming back. So

59:57

we had to do full chemotherapy.

1:00:00

As of two weeks ago, he is actually

1:00:03

in remission. Finally. We spent a year a year

1:00:05

of Medications and chemo

1:00:08

and surgeries and he's fine.

1:00:10

He's good. He's sleeping on my foot right now

1:00:12

as I'm talking to you He is out cold. He's

1:00:14

wearing Halloween pajamas to cover up his

1:00:16

bald spot from his last surgery So

1:00:19

he's he's living it up. And

1:00:21

the only thing that sucked was that we spent Cancer

1:00:26

is very expensive is what I've learned this last.

1:00:29

Yes, our Oncologist

1:00:31

actually said she was like look chemo is not that hard

1:00:33

on the dog. He'll be sleepy She was like the hardest

1:00:35

thing this is that about this is going to be paying for

1:00:37

it and she was dead serious She was like trying to get

1:00:40

me ready. She was like, it's really expensive so

1:00:44

But worth it. The big thing was we

1:00:46

knew it was treatable much like, you know, Wallace's

1:00:48

young, dude My dudes older, but

1:00:51

we caught it really early So that

1:00:53

was what kept me going and kept me, you know

1:00:55

filling up the care credit cards was

1:00:58

was I was like Hey, we know we can do this Like

1:01:00

we know it'll be successful if we just keep going and going

1:01:02

and going so he's in remission

1:01:04

now But yeah, I am looking for help. I Would

1:01:07

not turn down a little help paying off those credit

1:01:09

cards. We've actually raised almost half the cost

1:01:12

already That's one and so we set

1:01:14

up a go fund me It's you

1:01:16

can find it very easily at help Chicano

1:01:19

calm Chicano CH I

1:01:21

CA no dot-com and Anything

1:01:24

is hugely appreciated But

1:01:27

he's doing he's doing awesome I mean,

1:01:29

he's literally been he licked my foot once while we

1:01:31

were talking and I managed not to scream so so

1:01:35

he's his old self now and And

1:01:38

yeah I knew when when because I emailed you the

1:01:40

moment I heard that Wallace had cancer

1:01:42

because we've been we've been through six months in

1:01:44

at that point right and and you you Came

1:01:47

in and we're like, hey, here's some stuff you could do. Here's

1:01:49

some things to look into Specifically like

1:01:51

on credit cards and things because you'd already gone through

1:01:54

all of it Yeah, and and when

1:01:56

we started we didn't know where where was gonna

1:01:58

end like we were hoping maybe it only be eight And

1:02:00

then we were hoping maybe it only be 10 total

1:02:03

cuz you know, you know Cuz I mean every time you went in

1:02:05

I'm sure every time you went in because you did a

1:02:07

radiation treatment I remember correctly and

1:02:09

that which is which is a lot of work

1:02:12

I mean, yeah, because it's like what five days at a time

1:02:14

and then you're off for two or is it four days at a time? Or yes,

1:02:16

it was my it was it was Monday through Friday I

1:02:19

would take Wallace in in the morning for radiation treatment

1:02:22

and and and that

1:02:24

was like three weeks or a month Yeah

1:02:26

of doing that it was a very it was a and then

1:02:29

we also did the tumor removal Of

1:02:31

course all of that which was horrible It's

1:02:33

like it was on his leg and he's a pup It

1:02:35

was on his leg and also like like Wallace's

1:02:37

a he's a rescue that was in the

1:02:39

shelter for eight months before I got him And it clearly

1:02:41

traumatized him So like when I when I leave town

1:02:44

I I now hire people to come into my house or

1:02:46

walk him or whatever Because I tried boarding him and

1:02:48

he would literally get night terrors For

1:02:50

like weeks after I would come back. He'd wake

1:02:52

up at 3 a.m And like have like

1:02:54

a weird fit where he didn't know where he was So it's

1:02:57

clearly traumatizing him So when I when I took him

1:02:59

off to get the the tumor removed from

1:03:01

his perspective anytime I drop him off at a place

1:03:03

that smells like dogs where he doesn't know where he

1:03:05

is is very scary and then he woke Up and

1:03:07

he was in pain. He had a cone It was uh, yeah

1:03:10

I took him home and he just he went into the backyard and just sat

1:03:12

in the middle with a stuffed animal and cried it Was horrible

1:03:15

however on on a happy

1:03:18

note What Wallace

1:03:20

is fine now, he's he's got

1:03:22

this odd Gray

1:03:25

patch on his elbow where the the the

1:03:27

radiation treatment sort of prematurely Aged

1:03:30

the hair But the cancer

1:03:32

is gone He is cancer-free and I was very very fortunate

1:03:35

in that my audience stepped up and

1:03:37

helped me pay for Wallace's cancer treatments,

1:03:39

which is in part why I was happy to talk to you Enrique

1:03:42

because Man I'd be a dick

1:03:44

if I took all that money to help my dog

1:03:47

and then didn't help you out. So Gang,

1:03:50

this is one of our own Enrique's been on the

1:03:52

program multiple times He's a friend of mine a friend of

1:03:54

the show and if you go to help Chicano

1:03:57

comm you can help him pay what is a massive

1:04:00

cancer bill for his dog and uh... i

1:04:02

encourage you guys to be generous but if

1:04:05

if you're like i'm not gonna give him a hundred dollars

1:04:07

about like if if you were going to tip me

1:04:10

the show if you were going to go that was pretty good show

1:04:12

i give he can five dollars what you give that to enrique

1:04:14

to help his dog with cancer you go to help chicago

1:04:17

dot com and help him pay off those medical

1:04:19

costs thank you for from the bottom i

1:04:21

heart thank you very much all right uh...

1:04:24

my pleasure man and uh... i'm i'm sure

1:04:26

the people are gonna help you out on that happy

1:04:28

notes to it sounds like your dog is doing well and

1:04:30

you're just dealing with the the uh... financial

1:04:33

though they're large financial implications of all of this

1:04:35

but your dog is still play the piano it's

1:04:37

still a good look at the very top of these

1:04:40

still by a plane all the things that

1:04:42

your dog love to do the amra and

1:04:45

uh... i'm fairly confident that neither of us

1:04:47

are living in a weird panopticon entertainment

1:04:49

bubble uh... because i for one

1:04:51

and struggling to get sufficient internet

1:04:54

insufficient attention to all of my

1:04:56

endeavors but i thought it's your show interesting

1:04:59

you can never have too many letters are all this

1:05:01

it won't be good enough this week of the show

1:05:03

he's got a gamble to try to get

1:05:06

more listeners by advertising on a recent

1:05:08

tb fails but i don't want

1:05:10

to cover it like a coach i

1:05:12

got the heat show again to see what he does

1:05:16

uh... what about by that i thought was going to talk

1:05:18

to you it's a lot of fun and yeah i've got a

1:05:20

good excuse what's true but you're going to come out all

1:05:23

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1:05:27

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1:07:59

Thank you Eric.

1:07:59

Stipe who edited today's program and

1:08:02

thanks as well to Nick Spurdudi for another

1:08:04

fun adventure in intergalactic vagabonding.

1:08:08

Until next time, Tallyho!