0:00

Welcome back to season three of the, all at once podcast.

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We are people who carry much like all of humanity all at once.

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We wanna give God the glory and remind you that we don't expect you to agree

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with everything that we say or any, any of our own beliefs.

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So take what is good and beneficial for you and leave what isn't

0:21

I'm Kelly and with us today is a familiar voice. Sarah,

0:25

and we also have a new co-host D hello, D.

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Hello. So Dara George is our new co-host for season three.

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She's also my soulmate. We have been best friends.

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Since what grade did we meet there?

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I feel like sixth, sixth or seventh.

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Sixth, or I think we met in sixth grade, but it was when we were both in theater in seventh grade that we correct really

0:52

were like, oh my gosh, we're the same human mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, when,

0:57

when Sarah and I were talking about season three and centering black voices,

1:02

we knew that we couldn't do that without

1:07

bringing a person of color to the decision making table and creating

1:11

space for that in every capacity for us,

1:17

I immediately wanted dare to be a cohost actually,

1:21

before I ever started a podcast, all at once podcast, I was like, Hey,

1:25

D we should just have a podcast. I don't know how to do that.

1:27

But we were on a subway station in New York <laugh> and I was like,

1:31

I feel like if we could be really good if we were on a podcast together and, um,

1:35

now we are, so that's a really, really special thing.

1:38

Full circle. Yeah. Yeah. So D tell me a little bit about why you're excited to be here,

1:45

kind of how this has come to be for you.

1:50

Uh, first of all, thank you for inviting me. I'm honored.

1:55

It is so funny thinking about that conversation that we had in New York,

1:58

however many years ago. And you did it, I'm just so proud of you.

2:03

I just wanna take a second to say that, like you have a whole podcast.

2:07

That's awesome. Like, I feel very fancy right now with my mic and everything.

2:11

So just wanted to say that first of all. Um, yeah, I mean,

2:15

you're my person, you're, you know, my best friend and I'm sure we'll talk more about that as we go, but, um,

2:21

super excited and just really happy to, um,

2:26

to share my story. I think, you know,

2:28

I I'm someone who didn't really recognize my

2:33

blackness, I guess, um, until I was, I was, you know, an adult.

2:37

And I think part of that was because I, I never,

2:42

I never heard other people's stories or experiences. I just assumed, oh,

2:45

this is normal, you know, to, to constantly be fitting into white spaces. And,

2:49

and so when I realized that that was not normal, um, you know, I, I, I thought,

2:54

you know, this is something that needs to be shared. And so that's,

2:56

I'm excited to be here and just be a part of, of what you're doing. Kelly,

2:59

I'm super excited, um, for this whole season. And just,

3:02

couldn't be more proud of you. So thank you for, including me.

3:06

You're so sweet. Um, well.

3:09

I wanna know more about how you two met and how you became friends.

3:14

Can you tell us about that? Where do we even start? <laugh>.

3:20

Think the best story of us.

3:23

I think the moment we became soulmates was we were in theater.

3:26

It was eighth grade year. We were in miracle.

3:29

Worker. I was Helen Keller. She was Annie Sullivan. I had no lines.

3:33

I had a really easy job. <laugh> actually, I had one line. It was Wawa, uh,

3:37

for those two <laugh> I feel insensitive for laughing so hard at that, but Aw,

3:45

it was funny <laugh> um, but we in the play,

3:50

we actually fought our, our theater teacher, Rachel Schaumberg,

3:53

what's her name is her name. Um,

3:56

she had us actually hit each other and wrestle and like spit food in each

4:00

other's faces. And I guess I was the one spitting food in your face.

4:04

You didn't spit food in my face <laugh> um,

4:07

but we were wrestling and I had this black sweater on

4:12

and Dara had braces cuz every eighth grader did.

4:16

And she got like stuck to my sweater and

4:21

I just remember we stopped dress rehearsal or whatever we were doing rehearsal

4:25

and we were just like stuck. Stuck, help, help us. <laugh>.

4:29

Um, I think that's when we became soulmates.

4:32

I mean, yeah. You know, we had to slap each other around, uh, we wrestled a lot.

4:38

I will never forget that because we were so in the scene and that honestly was

4:42

probably one of the best takes we had of that scene. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I'm over you and I'm like trying to move and I'm like,

4:46

why can't I move what my head's not moving. And then I just remember yelling braces, braces, braces,

4:52

and then everyone's dying. And I'm like, are you guys gonna help us or no?

4:55

Like <laugh>. Are you just gonna laugh? Or yeah, like we actually on prices.

5:00

Yeah. <Laugh>. I remember to, um,

5:05

I think one of the first times I slept over at your house in junior high,

5:10

one of my first earliest memories of me being white and you

5:15

being black was I didn't pack shampoo.

5:19

And I assumed that you would just have shampoo in your bathroom.

5:24

Like all my friends and I remember going to take a shower and you didn't have

5:28

shampoo. And I was like, I don't, I don't know what to do.

5:30

I don't know what to do without shampoo <laugh>. And that is when I learned that your hair is different than my hair

5:37

and your, the way you care for your hair is different for the way that I care is different

5:41

from how I care for my hair. And that kind of started this long haul of

5:48

deconstruction of colonialism and my belief system of what is good

5:53

and right. And, and not, and because your family was also staunch Democrats.

6:00

Yeah. And my family of origin that I grew up in was not.

6:06

<Laugh> no <laugh>.

6:09

Surprise. Um, you know, and I just

6:16

sitting in churches and hearing that Democrats were evil and

6:20

that, um, you know, the, the, to be most Christlike was to be a Republican.

6:25

And I just, I, I honestly, I,

6:28

I thought about you a lot every time that I thought about that,

6:31

because I was like, well, well, dare love Jesus. And D's wonderful.

6:34

And that doesn't match with, with what I'm seeing in D yeah.

6:40

Yeah. I mean, I remember that very vividly, you know, we,

6:44

we grew up in a small-ish town in Texas and very,

6:48

very right leaning and getting that messaging constantly, you know of, you know,

6:53

if you're a Democrat, you're going to hell or you don't love God. Right. And I,

6:57

you know, I'm raised in this environment, my dad was slash still is <laugh> very strong Democrat, also a Christian.

7:04

And so hearing that, you know, if, if you, if you didn't vote for George Bush,

7:08

you ain't a Christian. It's like, no, I disagree. But,

7:12

but that was, that was really hard for me because I was surrounded by that.

7:16

And like, I mean, to this day, I don't really necessarily consider myself a Democrat.

7:20

I definitely am not a Republican, but it's that whole, like.

7:23

The I'm I'm nodding my head. I realize people can't see me, but I'm not.

7:26

<Laugh> she's like, yes, girl preach. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know,

7:29

it's not mutually exclusive. Right. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

7:31

So it's yeah. It's just it interesting experience to say the least.

7:38

Yeah. Yeah. I really quickly, before we move on, went to shout out our sponsor,

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our title sponsor is Alan and Beth Stanfield.

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They have been our platinum sponsor since our podcast inception.

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And so I just wanna thank them for their support.

7:53

And also if you have any Realty needs in the area,

7:55

please reach out to Alan and Beth Stanfield. They're wonderful.

7:58

And actually good humans. So thankful for them. Well,

8:02

dare I am so glad that you were just willing to join us and jump in here

8:06

because, um, you know, we need your voice and it's just really important. I,

8:13

I remember when Kelly told me that you might be willing to join. I,

8:18

I felt like I kind of kept bugging her. It was like, what has she said?

8:21

Has she said yes yet? Like, is she gonna help? Is she gonna do this?

8:24

So I've just been really excited to have you join in with this. Um,

8:29

and we touched on this a little bit, or you touched on this just a minute ago,

8:32

a little bit. Uh, but why does this work matter to you?

8:37

Why is this important to you? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, when Kelly first asked me, I, I almost said no,

8:44

and not because I wasn't passionate about it, but because I was like,

8:48

am I qualified to talk about this? You know, I like,

8:51

is it okay for me to share this? Because I, I think a lot of us, um,

8:55

women in general specifically, um, you know,

8:58

grow up and are kind of told to like stifle our emotions and, oh,

9:02

it's not that bad focus on the positives. Right. Um,

9:05

and there's an added level of complexity as a black woman. Um, and so,

9:09

so what's, what's really important to me is,

9:11

is normalizing sharing experiences and learning from each other.

9:17

I think a lot of times, you know, I, I don't have to talk about how divided we are as a country and as a, you know,

9:22

the world, but we forget that we're all humans and we're all just doing our best,

9:27

trying to navigate through life. And so I think things like this where we're,

9:30

we're elevating black voices and we're hearing from people of color and we have

9:34

allies who are willing to listen and not just jump to we'll focus on the

9:39

positives. Like everything's gonna be okay. Slavery was so long ago,

9:42

all of that stuff. So it's really important,

9:44

not only for other black women and people of color in general, but for me,

9:49

it's even more important for people who are not of color to hear this.

9:53

And like from a real human, oh, that's actually a lived experience.

9:58

I should probably think about how I've interacted in similar scenarios.

10:02

You know? So that's why I'm super excited to be a part of it.

10:06

I just watched this documentary, uh, it's called black,

10:09

white and us mm-hmm <affirmative> and, um,

10:12

it's a part of this training that I'm going through. And at the end of it,

10:17

the guy who kind of put everything together, he was a,

10:19

he's a white parent who adopted to black children.

10:24

And his whole work is about transracial adoption and

10:28

understanding how to be a white parent to black children in a predominantly

10:31

white area. Yeah. And he approached a black author to write his book and

10:38

he said, you know, tell me, tell me what, what do I need to do? What,

10:41

how do I fix this? Yeah. How can I learn?

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And the black author's response was believe me.

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And that was really powerful. So I just asked our listeners as we interview people of color this season,

10:56

and as D really takes on a lot of the weight of

11:01

this, um, being the only person of color who's a cohost here.

11:07

Um, I just asked that that you would be willing to believe her just as you've were

11:11

willing to believe me when I shared my abuse story. And as you believe, Sarah,

11:16

and Sarah's abuse story, let us believe the people that we're interviewing and start to

11:23

really learn from them. So on that note,

11:28

D you were not adopted into a transracial family. You had black,

11:33

you have black parents and a black brother, but your family was surrounded by whiteness. You were in, in suburbia,

11:39

in Houston, where most of your peers and friend groups were

11:45

white. What was that like?

11:48

And what was it like to gain awareness of your blackness as you grew up?

11:52

I was thinking about this question. And even the fact that it just sounds so funny now,

11:58

like gaining awareness of my blackness, right? Like, imagine I'm like, Hey,

12:02

when did you gain awareness of your whiteness? Like, that's so it's such a weird concept, but it's, it's the reality. Right?

12:07

So when I was really young, you know,

12:11

we went to a black Baptist church and I actually was ostracized by my black

12:16

peers quite a bit. And that had a lasting impact on me. You know,

12:21

it was, oh, you talk like a white girl, you do this, you do that. And I'm like,

12:24

how do you talk like a color, first of all, no,

12:27

that's a whole different conversation. But, but so being surrounded by whiteness was normal and comfortable for me.

12:34

You know, even though I experienced what I now know are microaggressions,

12:38

you know, I felt like I could fit in and I didn't have to, you know,

12:42

try to be something that I wasn't. Um, but you know, it was,

12:46

it was little things. I played softball, which is a predominantly white sport.

12:50

And so, you know, all of my friends were white and you know, it definitely,

12:55

you know, playing in Texas, you experience some racism, some,

12:58

some not so fun comments from parents.

13:01

And I remember specifically one time I was doing a,

13:05

a base running competition. Um, you just like each one girl from each team did it and, you know, I won,

13:11

but you know, <laugh> as a great story. Um, but yeah, so this girl she's,

13:16

oh, what a monster, this girl was, she was just so rude. And, uh,

13:20

and so to discount my athletic ability, it was, oh, well, all y'all are fast.

13:25

I will never forget that. I will never forget that. And I literally, I, I, it,

13:30

I was so stunned. It's like that TikTok sound that's like the woman was too spun stunned to speak.

13:35

<laugh> like, I had no idea what to do. I was just like, did she,

13:39

what did she did that just happen? And so I remember telling my coaches who,

13:43

who are white women and they were ready to fight. They were like, where is she?

13:46

Let me at her. So it was things like that, that kind of accumulated over time.

13:50

And it wasn't until I went to college and was the,

13:53

not only the only black player on my team,

13:55

I was the only black player in the conference. And there's like eight teams.

13:59

Like that's a lot of, of white people <laugh>, you know? And so I was,

14:04

I would always make jokes about it, but there was,

14:06

there was a lot of things that happened that weren't okay, that,

14:09

that made me feel othered. And so that was what I really started to realize that I was different.

14:14

And it wasn't until I started working in the tech space within the last five

14:19

years that I started being okay with my blackness and,

14:23

and celebrating my blackness. I mean, the listeners can't see,

14:26

but my office I've got, you know, black women imagery everywhere.

14:30

I've got a black and dope sign behind me, but I didn't get to that point until I started working in the tech space.

14:35

And I worked for a company that was very supportive of being your authentic self

14:39

and had a lot of resources. And I built community and I got black friends for the first time,

14:44

really in my life. I, now I have more than I can count on more than one hand,

14:49

how many black friends I have and that's insane, you know? So that was,

14:53

uh, that's kind of how I, I got to the point now where, you know, I am like,

14:58

yeah, I love being black, black being black is dope as hell. You know,

15:01

mm-hmm <affirmative> so it took a while to get there though. And I think, you know, just to reiterate how trauma works,

15:08

because experiencing racism is a, is a trauma.

15:11

And I don't know, a black person who has not experienced racism yeah.

15:16

In the us and like me, you know, I,

15:20

until I had my adult brain looking back at my childhood,

15:23

I didn't know that what happened to me as a child was abuse. Yeah.

15:26

I didn't know that I lived through trauma until my adult brain,

15:31

which develops, I think at 25, when you're looking back over your life, uh,

15:37

you can see, oh, that wasn't normal. Yeah. Oh, that, that was racism.

15:42

Oh, that is not how parents should treat their children. Oh,

15:47

that's not how teachers should speak to one another or to their students in

15:52

their classroom. Like, oh,

15:54

that's an appropriate behavior from an adult to a child. Oh,

15:58

that's what happened to me. And I think we forget that a lot of people, especially, you know,

16:05

I'm an educator. And so a lot of people work in who I work around and in education, in general,

16:09

any, any kind of industry where you're servicing young people,

16:14

we forget that young people often don't know that what

16:19

they're experiencing is wrong or traumatic or abuse.

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So they don't even know to talk about it. They don't know to bring it up.

16:25

And so if, when they come back to us in their twenties and say,

16:28

this happened to me, we need to listen and believe them because it,

16:33

it they're likely telling the truth. And they just didn't know like me and I relate to that. And I,

16:38

and I hear that in D's story, as she looks back,

16:41

as you look back in your life and you're like, oh,

16:45

that's what that was. Yeah. And you've been carrying that for a long time.

16:51

I have a follow up question related to that. Sure. Um, so, you know,

16:56

as you're gaining this awareness, as you're noticing things or reflecting back on things that happened,

17:03

did you ever, uh, have moments where you felt like you were invalidated by people around you

17:09

or by society when you started to kind of recognize these things or maybe

17:14

even speak up about them or like where you were not believed.

17:19

A hundred percent? I love this question. Uh, yes.

17:23

So one example specifically, uh,

17:26

usually I am not very active on Facebook at all. Um,

17:30

other than posting pictures of my kids. Right. But when George Floyd was murdered, um, you know, I,

17:37

I think it was just that in addition to all of the trauma from the pandemic and

17:41

everything, it was just a lot. And I got to the point where I was like, no,

17:43

I like, I need to say something. I want to share my story.

17:46

And so I remember very specifically, I, I,

17:49

I put together a post where I was talking about, you know,

17:52

some of my lived experiences with racism, um, as well as what I was feeling,

17:57

you know? And so I kind of laid out, you know, I'm feeling sad because of this,

18:01

I'm feeling angry because of this I'm feeling guilty because I don't have to

18:04

worry about my white husband not coming home to me.

18:07

If he gets pulled over versus my family and friends who don't have that luxury

18:11

and someone who was very close to me, a close family member commented,

18:17

uh, not a person of color white man.

18:19

And essentially it was just dripping and talks of positivity and completely

18:24

invalidating my experience. It was it word for word?

18:29

It was don't don't think about the people who hate,

18:31

think about the people who love and, you know, all of this stuff.

18:34

And it just basically like, oh, it's okay. Like just, just don't think about it.

18:37

Just be happy, you know, it's like, okay, cool.

18:39

Let me like flip the happy switch and just erase racism, you know? And so,

18:44

so that was really hard. And, you know, it was someone who's close with,

18:48

you know, on my husband's side of the family. So he had to have that conversation, but it was like,

18:52

I'm opening up and sharing, not something I ran, you know, on Google.

18:57

I literally lived this experience like, and this is how I'm feeling.

19:01

And so for you to just say, just think about those who love. Well,

19:05

it's hard not to think about those who hate when they're killing people who look

19:09

like me and who look like my children, you know? So that, that was very,

19:14

that was very hard to deal with. You know, we've moved past it since then,

19:17

but it was really challenging. Mm. I imagine that happens more than just in that one isolated,

19:26

uh, time. I'm sure it happens frequently. If you,

19:30

if you say anything about what's happening for you or how you're feeling or your

19:33

experience, I can only imagine that's just an additional level of trauma to deal with.

19:41

Yeah. As you're processing. Yeah. That's exactly right. And the,

19:46

the hardest part of it is it should not be people

19:51

of color who are responsible for shedding light on these things.

19:55

But when we do it in spite of that, even though it's traumatic,

19:59

and that's the response that you get, it's just such a kick in the gut. I,

20:03

or this is sort of funny, sort of not, but in that same time period,

20:07

one of my posts was laying out like this happened to me and that was racist.

20:11

And that happened to me and very specific to an experience of a black woman

20:16

growing up in Texas. And I remember so vividly this girl who, I,

20:20

I probably haven't talked to her since we were 10 years old. Like no joke,

20:23

like went to school with her. I don't even know. I hope she's doing well.

20:26

I don't even remember her name <laugh> but like, so she comments and she's basically, you know, saying, oh,

20:33

I'm so sorry you experienced that. But, and I was like, oh, Jesus, help me.

20:37

Here we go. She's like, but I've experienced the same things. I'm like, oh,

20:41

you have, you've had people call you the N word. Have you like, no,

20:46

you haven't. Uh, so I was like, that just was mind boggling to me.

20:50

It's like, you can't let somebody else have the mic for two seconds and you have to jump in

20:55

and say, oh, I've experienced that too. Like, no, you haven't fam you haven't.

21:00

It's different. It's different. It's crazy. It's really different this year,

21:03

being back in the classroom, that's like, what's, you know,

21:05

right in front of my eyes that I can't see is this, um,

21:09

we all have heard the word toxic positivity, but what that looks like is we can't improve like that

21:15

to love a system or to celebrate a country or to celebrate a school.

21:19

You have to, you have to propagate it. Like you have to always be positive for that system or country

21:26

or organization when that's not what love looks like.

21:30

If we all love our kids, if we just told them they were great all the time and never disciplined them or,

21:36

or gave them boundaries, oh my God, they'd be little. Well,

21:40

they already are kind of terrorists, but they'd be like actual terrorists <laugh> um,

21:43

they would grow up into terrible human beings. And so like,

21:48

when that happens, when you're gaslit is what that is. Right. So when, when,

21:51

when we share our experiences and we're like, Hey, you know,

21:54

this organization might be a little bit racist or sexist,

21:59

or might be contributing to the trauma cycle in young people's lives or

22:05

whatever it is. When we bring that up, we wanna keep that happy world syndrome that married to M talked about in season

22:11

two. We don't want to acknowledge that a system or an organization or a country can

22:15

get better. We want things to stay the same.

22:18

And that's not what love looks like. That is not what,

22:22

what goodness is like. Again,

22:25

I just go back to my kids if I wasn't loving them and raising them into kind

22:29

wonderful human beings, that would, that would be problematic.

22:34

And so I just think we have to get move away from this idea that if we criticize

22:39

a system or if we share our experience, that is negative. That,

22:43

that isn't good. That is good. That's how we improve.

22:46

And that's how we make things better for everybody.

22:49

And that's the goal is to make the world a better place for the next generation.

22:52

And so I'm like, let's go, let's, let's burn those bridges because yeah.

22:57

How else are we gonna make the world a better place? Yeah. And it's also just, it's such a privileged perspective, right?

23:04

Just think about the good, well, I don't have that privilege.

23:09

I have actual children who are black,

23:12

who I need to think about when they're, you know,

23:14

how they're gonna be perceived in the world and what they're gonna be taught.

23:18

And, you know, especially there's the add of complexity of them being biracial.

23:21

And I wanna make sure that they stay close to, you know, their culture,

23:24

but it's just such a privilege to be able to say, oh, just don't think about it.

23:27

Well, you can do that cuz it doesn't impact you. But it impacts me, you know.

23:32

That, that, that, um, documentary was telling about, talked about that too.

23:35

They were like these white families who adopted black kids,

23:38

they said one of the things they realized, they were like, they,

23:40

they they've always been passionate about ending racism and anti-racist work

23:44

and, and being advocates for social justice.

23:48

But it wasn't until there was a black human in their lives,

23:51

in their homes that they realized they don't ever get a break from it. Yep.

23:54

And that's when they realized that that's what it is like to be black in

23:57

America. You don't get a break.

23:59

And so to be able to take a break is a privilege to be able to put it, take,

24:03

take that hat off of anti-racist work and of, and of thinking about racism.

24:08

I is a privilege. And so I'm glad that you brought that up,

24:10

like just to be able to say, oh,

24:12

well just think of the positive is an extremely privileged and ignorant

24:16

perspective. Yeah. I think too, as we think about how we respond,

24:21

when people share their experiences, love is meeting them in the messiness and in the pain of that

24:30

and being willing to be uncomfortable and being willing to sort of

24:36

take on a little bit of that grief with them, the toxic positivity is,

24:41

is gas lighting. It's not helpful in that moment.

24:45

Yeah. And I, I think it's all rooted in being willing to be uncomfortable.

24:51

Yeah. Because it, that response of, you know, just, oh, don't be sad.

24:56

Don't think about the bad things. That's because you don't wanna be uncomfortable. That's right. It's okay.

25:00

To be sad. It's okay to talk about hard things. That's a good thing.

25:05

That's a productive thing. It's not about your comfort. Right. So mm-hmm.

25:09

<Affirmative> and on that note, D if,

25:12

if we are presenting things or ever saying things that

25:17

you think feel is off or think is off,

25:21

be a disruptor here too. I have no problem with that. <laugh>.

25:25

So I kind of wanna talk about some stereotypes that are placed on black women.

25:29

Uh, some problems that come with that I'd love for us to also just ki,

25:33

so D's gonna be a cohost for all of these. So we'll learn more about her the whole season, but I really want to narrow in,

25:39

on some of her own specific experiences related to mental health and being a

25:43

black woman in America in the tech industry.

25:46

So if you could just talk a little bit about some of those stereotypes and,

25:49

and the problems that arise from that. Yeah, absolutely. I think that the biggest challenge for me,

25:56

and I'm glad I went through it, cuz it it's what kind of set me on my journey of discovering my own mental

26:01

health, um, problems and solutions is this whole narrative around the strong black

26:07

woman, right? Like it's something that I think has,

26:11

has good intent, but ends up doing more harm than good. And,

26:14

and the reason I say that is, you know,

26:18

black women are often praised for how strong we are, how resilient we are,

26:21

you know, we deal with problems, you know, very well. And in a workplace,

26:26

in a professional setting, like at home as a mother, it's always like,

26:31

you got this you're super strong. And so when you hear that constantly reiterated,

26:36

it starts to no longer be a compliment.

26:38

And it starts to just feel like a lot of pressure. But, um,

26:43

no, it's really hard. And then I think like as a mother and,

26:46

and I actually had this conversation with my husband, so, you know,

26:49

my husband is white and um, we have,

26:51

we have two beautiful baby girls and you know, he he's,

26:55

his love language is words of affirmation. So he's always telling me, oh,

26:58

you're so you're so strong. You're such a good mom. You're this,

27:01

you're that and the other, but the year so strong started to be a little bit triggering because I realized

27:07

I was taking on way more than I should have been. I was,

27:10

I was just trying to do it all, you know, be this, you know,

27:14

perfect Pinterest working mom. And like I'm constantly being told how strong I am. So I'm thinking, dang,

27:20

like I can't take a break cuz everything is gonna fall apart. If I do, you know,

27:24

which is not true. So I, I think that's another reason why this is really important for me,

27:29

especially within, you know, the mental health space for people of color and,

27:33

and black mothers, especially nobody talks about this stuff. You know,

27:38

we talk about how hard it is to be a para, but we don't talk about all of those nuances and how damaging this whole

27:44

societal construct of the strong black woman is. So I'm very open with,

27:47

with my story and hopes that it'll help, you know,

27:50

others going through the same thing. I'm really glad you are,

27:53

as you were kind of starting to realize kind of the mental health struggles that

27:57

come with those stigmas and societal expectations. Were there any, um,

28:02

kind of stigmas about seeking mental healthcare for you or

28:07

for you personally, or do you, do you notice stigmas about mental healthcare among black women

28:14

in general? I think black people in general, you know, there's this whole, you know,

28:20

black people don't go to therapy. They go to the barbershop thing, which is,

28:24

is funny, but it's not funny because yeah, you know, this is a,

28:27

this is a normal thing. If you broke your arm,

28:31

I'm pretty sure you would go get professional, help for that. Right. Like,

28:35

right. That's never questioned, but when it comes to matters of the mind, it's,

28:39

you know, it's either, you know, whatever, you'll be fine. Just, you know,

28:41

talk it out, think about the positives or even even worse is, oh,

28:45

you just need to pray more like, you know, you just, just, you know,

28:49

go to church, give it to the Lord. And it's like, the Lord made really smart people who are doctors and therapists and

28:55

psychiatrists and counselors like that is for a reason.

29:00

And that it's not just like, you can't just like choose to not be anxious.

29:04

You know? I always love what I tell people. I have anxiety and they're like, oh,

29:06

what are you anxious about? And I'm like, life friend. I don't know, like.

29:11

My husband, he asks that. And like,

29:14

we've been on this mental health journey for a long time. Yeah.

29:17

But every time I'm like, when are you gonna learn? Like, there's not like a,

29:21

a thing. Yeah. Like I just, my throat is closing up and I might throw up and I'm not exactly sure why I

29:26

just, I just need a minute. Okay. Yeah. And it's, it's just so, and it's, it's it, you know,

29:31

it's comes from a good place, but like you asking me what I'm anxious about is spinning me up more to

29:38

have more anxiety because I don't know how to express it to, to you.

29:41

And I don't think I should have to. Um, so, so yeah, but anyway,

29:45

so growing up in the black community and you know, in the,

29:48

in the church community, it was like, oh, you don't have anything to be depressed about. You know,

29:51

you don't have anything to be anxious about. Just, just pray about it.

29:54

And I had to unlearn that and it was really difficult, but it changed my life.

29:58

You know, I go to therapy biweekly. I, I take antidepressants,

30:02

which I think there's such a stigma against that. But like if I had high blood pressure, I would take medicine.

30:08

I just got some chemicals that are a little off of my head.

30:10

That's not a bad thing. It's just, it is what it is, you know? So yeah.

30:14

Yeah. I, um, I'm glad you brought that up because that's something that I also wanted to talk

30:18

about. I was ashamed to talk about it in the last couple seasons, um,

30:23

about the medication that I take and I don't know why I didn't wanna be,

30:28

well, I know why I didn't wanna be forthright with it because there is a stigma.

30:31

<laugh>, that's exactly what we're talking about. Right. Surrounding people who take antidepressants or any type of medicine for

30:38

anxiety or depression. But, um, I wasn't prepared to,

30:43

to share this story, but I'm gonna go ahead and share it. Um, so after you,

30:48

you all know that after my second was born, just like D same thing happened,

30:51

like something with that push on that second baby. Yeah. That you're like,

30:54

holy crap. Yeah. I gotta deal with some stuff. Um,

30:58

and I was on antidepressants after my second was born for a

31:03

little under a year. And then I got off of them and I was doing pretty well. Um,

31:09

and then the summer of COVID when the whole world was super locked down,

31:13

shut down, it was July. And, um,

31:17

my brother tried to commit suicide and

31:22

the responsibility of his life was placed on to me

31:27

by my parents. And it's a long story.

31:32

I won't share all the details of that, but it was extremely traumatic. And

31:38

after all of that died down, I went back to my OB gen.

31:43

My OB gen is my prescriber of my antidepressants. And I said,

31:48

I am engaging in a lot of unhealthy behaviors. Yeah. I'm eating more,

31:53

I'm drinking more, I'm zoning out more. I'm getting angrier at my kids.

31:58

I am not well. And I know that I'm not well, and I need,

32:02

I need a lifeline and I was still going to therapy and I needed something

32:07

more. And so I asked to be placed back onto the medication that I was on.

32:11

She goes, you know, Kelly, I shared her my life story basically about my trauma for my childhood.

32:16

And then what happened with my brother. And she goes, you know, some people have a one trauma that was a long time ago

32:25

that they get lots of support from the people who are around them.

32:28

When that trauma happened, they get apologies. They get, um, acceptance healing,

32:33

loads of support. And that's great. You don't have that. You,

32:38

you have a trauma from your childhood, um,

32:42

that continues to be played out regularly in your life.

32:47

And that is different and no person can handle

32:52

that on their own. And that's exactly what antidepressants are for is to help people who

32:58

are going through trauma and have faced trauma and are continually facing

33:03

their trauma. And it, it is helpful.

33:08

I am so grateful for antidepressants.

33:14

Same girl. And I'm so proud of you. Thank you. That feels like a weight off of my shoulders.

33:21

<Laugh>, I'm hugging you from afar.

33:25

So D what ideas do you have about how to combat those social

33:30

pressures and stigmas in the black community about seeking mental health help?

33:36

I think it starts with normalizing it,

33:38

talking about it among the black community sharing, you know,

33:43

sharing stories. And it's a, it's a hard thing to do.

33:45

It took me a really long time to get the,

33:47

to this point where I'm as open as I am about it. So I,

33:51

I think for those who are willing, you know,

33:54

share your story in whatever way feels right to you,

33:57

whether it's at your next Bible study group or, you know,

34:01

in a Facebook post, whatever. Um, or if, you know,

34:04

people are coming to you and asking you, you know, feel,

34:07

feel okay with sharing that. And I think, I mean,

34:12

therapy is I will push that on anyone and everyone. I, I realize that that is,

34:16

that is a privilege to be able to access therapy. So that's not lost on me,

34:21

but I feel like any opportunity to,

34:23

to engage in that and to find a therapist is just life changing.

34:28

But I think on a broader level, we kind of touched on this earlier for people who are not within the black

34:35

community, just listening to our stories and not necessarily just about

34:42

mental health, but like, you know, experiencing racism, experiencing racism, um,

34:47

because that all ties into mental health and, and listening with the intent of,

34:52

of understanding and not with the intent of answering Kelly,

34:56

you do an amazing job at this. And it's one of the million reasons why I love you so much is anytime I'm going

35:01

through something, it doesn't matter what it is.

35:04

Anytime I'm going through something, your first response is something along the lines of, that's a really hard thing.

35:10

How do you, how does that make you feel? What, what are you thinking right now?

35:13

Because the, the normal reaction that I get with other folks is, uh, dang,

35:20

I'm sorry, that sucks. But like, why, why don't you do this? Or, you know,

35:23

why don't you do that? And it's like, let's not jump to solutions. Let's,

35:28

let's take a step back and let's just listen and UN and acknowledge.

35:32

That's a really hard thing. That's a really, I was gonna say shitty,

35:36

that's a really, really crappy situation that you're going through.

35:39

That must be so hard. And so even those little things,

35:42

just even if you're faking it at first, fake it till you make it fam you know,

35:47

like it just, it goes a long way because people,

35:50

regardless of ethnicity, whatever people just wanna be heard,

35:55

they don't want necessarily you to just jump to solutions. So I,

36:00

I think that's, that's a really good start.

36:02

That makes so much sense. Um, something that,

36:06

because my master's program is for counseling,

36:09

something that has really just been hammered into us from the beginning is the

36:14

power of that relationship and the power,

36:17

the healing power of just listening.

36:21

And so it just kind of makes me think about how impactful

36:25

it would be if we increased on a societal and a cultural level,

36:31

the ability to listen to others and just be there with them and

36:36

hear their experiences, how healing that would be. Yeah. And on that note,

36:41

I, you know, this season, we're centering black voices,

36:45

and I we've talked a little bit about some of your experiences with racism,

36:49

but would you be willing to share the earliest memory

36:55

of racism in your life?

36:58

Of course, um, man, I think I must have been,

37:04

I think I, I was very young. I was seven or eight years old and I,

37:08

I don't remember specifically saying that was racist,

37:12

but I knew it wasn't right. So I'll never forget this.

37:16

We were at Deerbrook mall, shout out to my humble folks. Um,

37:20

and I was in line at corn dog seven,

37:23

which now like every time I say that I'm like, that is so country, like only,

37:28

only in humble would there be a restaurant called corn dog seven.

37:32

So I'm in line. I'm like, I'm so excited because you know,

37:35

my dad gave me my own money and like I was being a big girl and I was gonna

37:39

order my food. And so I get to, I get to the front of the line. It's my turn in.

37:42

Someone cuts in front of me, white man, white woman. I can't remember.

37:45

I remember they didn't look like me and the, the cashier was a,

37:50

a young white woman girl, probably like late teens. And so I was, you know,

37:55

upset because someone had cut in front of me. And so my dad saw what happened and Kelly, Kelly knows this about my dad. He's,

38:01

he's calmed down since then, but he's a little passionate. Uh, and he's,

38:04

he's very much a Papa bear. So <laugh>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> um.

38:08

He's a bit, he mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah.

38:11

<Laugh>, she's like, yep. Uhhuh, uh, plus one. So,

38:15

so he comes up and, you know, he's, he is calm and you just like is saying, Hey,

38:19

like, you know, my daughter was next and the girl caught a huge attitude with him.

38:25

I don't remember what was said. I just remember it was,

38:28

it was very nasty and very cutting. And so, you know, my,

38:32

my dad got upset and started to get a little bit animated and then the mall

38:36

security came over and I will never forget being that young. You know,

38:41

I don't know the difference between a police detective and a mall security guy.

38:45

Right. Like in my head, I'm like, my daddy's going to jail.

38:48

Like something bad is gonna happen because here's this, you know,

38:52

here comes this big, bad black man, you know, yelling at this poor,

38:55

innocent white girl, when really, I mean, she was being a Boch, like, you know,

38:59

like it, you know, it's fine, but, you know,

39:02

and it was a very long conversation. I just was so scared.

39:05

And I remember going home that night and,

39:08

and I don't even know if my dad remembers this, but I was asking him like, well,

39:12

why did they only yell at you, daddy? Why didn't they yell at the girl?

39:15

She wasn't being very nice. And I, I don't remember what his answer was. I,

39:20

and as a parent, I don't know what my answer would've been. You know,

39:24

that was my, my earliest and most prominent,

39:29

I think, memory of racism. And the first moment of we are,

39:33

we don't look like everybody else. And that wasn't fair that we got treated that way. Like I don't,

39:38

I don't understand. So. Thank you for sharing that with us. Of course. I'm so sorry. I,

39:46

I know that wasn't the only thing, but so as you start to reflect on all these, um,

39:53

experiences as an adult,

39:56

as you remember all of these things that happened when you were a kid

40:00

growing up, um, how does it impact you? Now?

40:05

My therapist hears a lot from me, so that's number one.

40:11

Um, but you know, what's interesting. So my therapist is a white woman and she I'm

40:17

obsessed with her. She, um, she actually helped me to kind of,

40:22

I guess, I don't know if deconstruct is the right word,

40:24

but just kind of break down my experiences that I didn't realize were trauma

40:29

and realize how they impacted me in my adult life. So, you know,

40:34

I was sharing with her that there was a period of time where I would get anxiety

40:37

when my in-laws were coming over. Cuz I wanted to like,

40:40

make sure the house was super clean and you know,

40:42

make sure everything looked perfect and pristine. And I was like, they're,

40:45

they're chilled people. I don't know why I get like that. And she was like,

40:47

well, probably because of the dynamic of you being a black woman,

40:51

your in-laws are white, you know that there are more

40:57

pressure is put on black women. And so you you're overcompensating for that.

41:03

And you know, and, and another instance was what I was telling her, you know,

41:06

how I get anxiety when I take my kids to the doctor.

41:09

And I don't know why part of that is because one of myo was really young.

41:12

She went to the NICU. So there's a little bit of, of PS PTSD there. Um,

41:17

but she was like, well, like, you know, black women have S called on them at a rate of, I don't even know, like four,

41:23

five times, you know, that of their, their non-black peers. And so, you know,

41:28

you feel this need to, to, you know,

41:31

tell the doctor all the right things you're doing and you're feeding them the

41:34

right things. And you're giving them the right vitamins, cuz you know,

41:36

you don't want anyone to question you as a mother. And I was like, dang girl,

41:40

you smart. You're right. Cause I didn't realize, I, I didn't realize. And Kelly,

41:45

I think you touched on this earlier. We don't realize how,

41:48

how much of an impact, those kind of isolated incidents are on you as an adult

41:54

and it, it, you carry it with you. And so that was just really freeing for me,

41:58

realizing that and letting go of some of that, you know.

42:01

Once you know what the, it is, it, it frees us.

42:06

So I know I'm feeling anxious when I go through this,

42:08

but I don't know what it's about. Yeah. I don't know what, what, what it,

42:11

what is it that is making me anxious? I don't know. Yeah.

42:14

But I know that what I'm feeling, but I don't know what it's toward. Yeah.

42:18

And once you frame that and develop some language around it,

42:22

it loses its power over you. Yeah, absolutely.

42:27

So thinking about all the roles you have in all the places and the many

42:32

different hats that you wear, how far

42:37

is the reach of racism into all of these different areas of life that you

42:42

live? That's a good question. That's a deep question. Um, I mean,

42:48

it's, it's, it's just present in every, in every aspect of my life.

42:52

I will say though, from a personal life perspective, I'm very,

42:59

I'm friends with a lot of people, but I'm, I'm very careful more so now that I have children, um,

43:04

who I include in my circle. And so, you know, I've got, I mean,

43:09

got a best friend, who's an ally and is leading a podcast, you know,

43:13

talking about centering black voices. Right. So I'm, I'm very,

43:16

I'm very careful about that. And so that doesn't mean I never experienced racism, but in my personal life,

43:22

it's, it's kind of background noise, to be honest. Um,

43:26

just because I started cutting toxic PE people outta my life, which 10 outta 10,

43:31

highly recommend if you haven't done. Um,

43:35

the election helped with that. I was like black delete byebye. Um,

43:39

so that was super helpful. I think, you know, I,

43:42

I love working in the tech space. I've, I've worked in corporate environments where I felt like, I,

43:47

I think I said this before. I felt like I had to be much more filtered.

43:51

I think in the tech space it's better, but it's still not perfect.

43:56

You know? And I, there is a huge diversity problem within the tech space.

43:59

And so sometimes how that manifests for me is constantly being the

44:04

black voice, constantly being like, Hey guys, diversity, Hey guys,

44:09

that's racist. Like, you know, I've, I've been in meetings with folks who are like three levels above me and have

44:15

called them out for the fact that they've only hired white dudes on their team.

44:19

You know? And, and I, I remember I had one meeting where I said, you know,

44:23

we need to review our hiring practices because our leadership team does not

44:27

represent the diversity of the folks who report to us. And,

44:31

and if I can be really vulnerable, you know,

44:33

being in leadership meetings and constantly being in rooms where no one else

44:37

looks like me is exhausting. And that was, I mean,

44:40

it was kind of like a clutching your pearls kind of moment. Everyone was like,

44:43

oh my gosh, because it's not top of mind for everybody.

44:46

So I think for like in a, preferr prefer, uh, professional space,

44:50

that's how it has kind of impacted me the most is feeling that pressure of

44:55

being the black voice, making sure that,

44:58

that we are considering diversity in everything we do.

45:00

And it shouldn't be my job, but it ends up being that, you know,

45:03

and that's just something that I have to kind of navigate.

45:06

Yeah. And which also that's a call to action for white folks in the room at those

45:11

places. And in the decision making tables is to change that again. Yeah.

45:14

You accept responsibility for, and the opportunities you have. You know,

45:19

I think about the people who have power to hire people and

45:23

that's great privilege. You have to leverage to represent the people you serve.

45:28

Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, um, just have hope and, and do the hard work to,

45:33

to make your organization better. For sure.

45:36

Can I just actually add one more thing, one more thought there,

45:39

I think another piece, even if you don't necessarily have hiring power is just being an ally,

45:45

but being an ally vocally, because I've had situations where I've had a conversation like that,

45:49

and I see people nodding their heads or someone will, you know,

45:52

shoot me a ping on the side and say, oh my gosh. Yes, you're so right.

45:55

But it's like, say that, speak up, you know,

45:57

say that in the room so that it's not always coming from the person of color.

46:01

That's a true ally is saying the hard things, you know,

46:06

be the Kelly that's, that's the TLDR of, of this is be the Kelly.

46:11

That's the synopsis, cuz it's hard. I mean,

46:13

it's hard for me as a black person to speak up.

46:16

I can imagine that as a white person who is not in that community,

46:20

like that's difficult to speak up against your peers and your family and your

46:23

friends, but that's how you can truly make a change, you know?

46:27

And it's costly. Yeah. And I, you know, the,

46:30

what led to losing a lifelong friend and mentor

46:35

their whole family. Yeah. Was me speaking out about George Floyd's death was when I finally

46:42

said enough is enough, my black friends are dying at an alarming rate due to police abusing their

46:48

power. Yep. Enough is enough black lives matter. Yep.

46:52

And it was that time that led to the loss

46:56

of some really deep friendships. And whenever, you know, they, they,

47:01

they had words whenever I talked about my abuse, but it,

47:04

it grew louder and worse and more severe when I talked out,

47:08

it spoke out about racism. Yeah. And that right there showed me how systemic racism works.

47:15

You know, like I'm not black.

47:18

And just me speaking out and saying that my black lives,

47:21

my black friends' lives matter to me and should matter to all of us all lives

47:25

can't matter until black lives matter. That alone makes them so uncomfortable. They can't have a relationship with me.

47:33

Wow. Yeah. Um, but we need more people willing to risk the that because as again,

47:38

my friend Cindy says the more people who are willing to risk those

47:41

relationships, those people who are hateful and who are doing the harm will have less places to

47:47

hide. And that's how we eradicate racism. Absolutely.

47:52

No, not hiding it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, again, I wanna thank you,

47:57

Kelly and Sarah for including me. I,

48:01

I meant it when I said I feel honored to be a part of this and I'm really

48:04

excited to be a co-host and hear from other folks over the

48:09

course of the season. I think it's gonna be really impactful across the board,

48:13

not just for people of color, but for allies as well. So I'm stoked.

48:18

Thank you so much for joining in, um,

48:21

on the podcast with us and just for being willing to share your experience,

48:26

um, as we learn and explore all of this, this season,

48:33

this is so exciting to me. I can't believe this is real.

48:36

All of my favorite people are involved and I just like can't believe it that

48:42

I I'm just amazed that this is something that I get to do. Uh, what a gift.

48:48

Thank you so much to all the people behind the scenes who work to support us.

48:52

Producer Janice street, marketing director, Robin Boen, social media manager,

48:56

Molly Bayes, and editor, Audra bridges. Thank you for all.

48:59

You've done to support and amplify our voices. Thanks for listening.