0:06

Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottliebs is

0:08

all ball man. Are you gonna love

0:10

our guest? His name

0:13

is John Higgins? Your life?

0:14

Really you got John Higgins? Yep?

0:17

John Higgins was up until

0:19

this year, one of the

0:21

most known, most respected, and

0:24

frankly most employed

0:27

officials in college basketball.

0:29

You knew him because he had his golden

0:33

sandy blonde brown hair.

0:35

He wore different pants than what seemed like

0:37

the rest of college basketball's

0:40

officials. He had a flash and a flamboyance,

0:42

and he was completely unafraid

0:45

to stare down a coach or to make a hard

0:47

call on the road.

0:48

John Niggins is my guest. This is gonna be fun.

0:50

By the way, we do ask about the pants, we

0:52

do ask about the hair, and there's

0:55

incredible stories in.

0:56

This two part discussion.

1:00

But I want to throw this out because we're coming on

1:02

the back of Draymond Green

1:04

and turning around and punching Nurkic

1:07

in a game which he was ejected, and now I'm likely to

1:09

be suspended. Maybe by the time this is this

1:11

dropsy, he's been suspended. It's

1:13

interesting, like you do need a guy

1:16

on your team that everybody

1:18

on the other team wants to fight. I

1:20

always use the Jorge Gutierrez argument,

1:23

I or him him as the as the example,

1:25

Jorgey Gutier is my brother Greg, who's

1:28

an assistant with the women's at Santaye State. But he was with

1:30

the men for eight years. He left and went to cal Berkeley.

1:33

He went into Finley Prep. And

1:37

I could let my brother tell the story, but I'll tell

1:39

it instead. So Todd Simon, who's now the head coach

1:41

of Bowling Grave, was the head coach at Finley Prep, and

1:44

he rolls in freshly into the Pac ten

1:47

at Cow and back then it

1:49

was hard to recruit at a Pac ten level when you're

1:52

in at Santae State. Even though Santay State was

1:54

growing in popularity, it won the league and

1:56

was starting to sell out the arena. So

1:58

he's watching all these that Friendly Prep

2:01

had at the time, and he turns

2:03

to Todd says, who should we go after?

2:06

He said, the kid with the ponytail and

2:08

the kid with the ponytail's names who or you get to hear?

2:10

As he'd come from he'd

2:13

come from Mexico the year before, gone to

2:15

a prep school in Denver, lived with six other

2:17

kids in a one bedroom apartment and

2:19

then transferred to Findley Prep. He shot

2:21

with two hands. His body wasn't

2:24

sculpted. He wasn't an above the rim player.

2:26

But Todd Simon said, hey man, when we have a

2:28

competition, when we play, his team always wins.

2:32

He's a tough, bad m effort.

2:33

And oh yeah, by the way, somebody the

2:35

other team wants to fight him every game. So

2:38

my brother offered him a scholarship. By

2:40

his senior year, he was Pack ten Player of the Year. And you know

2:42

what, in four years of cow there wasn't a game he played.

2:44

That's somebody the other team didn't want to fight him. And

2:47

he played in the NBA, and I believe he's playing now in Mexico.

2:49

You have to have those guys, but

2:51

Draymond takes it to another level. And

2:54

that other level is only the true

2:57

Like this guy is a psycho. I

2:59

don't think the all psychos, you

3:01

know, but Jason Sutherland was a guy who was kind

3:03

of a psycho. Played for Missouri and

3:06

you guys remember him. Sure, there's

3:08

lots of junk yard dogs out there

3:11

and guys that borderline on dirty. I

3:13

remember Chris Kingsbury as son. Now

3:15

I think plays at IOWA, and I don't

3:17

think he was. He got caught punching

3:20

a dude when he wasn't looking. Coming off of the screen.

3:23

Kingsbury's number was fourteen, he

3:25

told me, and I think everybody know it was because he loves

3:27

seven and seven. By the way, seven and seven

3:29

refreshing drink Kevin had in a while. Anyway,

3:33

here's what I like you to do. You want to participate

3:35

in all ball, why don't you tweet

3:37

at me at Gottlieb Show or hit me on Instagram. We

3:39

post this on your favorite college

3:42

basketball or NBA Bad Guy and

3:45

my bad guy. He hasn't been able to play. Anybody

3:48

can have a guy that sits on the end of the bench and does

3:50

him play. But when you have a guy that plays

3:52

that strikes a little bit of fear into the heart of your

3:54

own team and a lot of fear in the heart of the other

3:57

team, it ends up working for you. Draymond's

3:59

probab is as he starts to age. Now

4:02

the theatrics become more grandiose because

4:04

he thinks it covers the fact ad I'm played

4:06

nearly as well anymore. One last fighting,

4:09

One last fighting story, My first

4:12

year playing overseas, I played in Russia and

4:15

we had a couple of Russian guys at the end of our bench

4:17

that didn't play that much, and one of

4:19

them was about six ' five and pretty strong lifted.

4:22

We lifted every day, but he was always in the height room.

4:25

And we played against Sessca Moscow

4:28

and our best player was named Sergate Chikulkin,

4:31

and Chica was He

4:33

looked like powder, he remember, powder, shaved

4:36

head, pale skin, kind

4:39

of had a weird shot, but man could he shoot

4:41

score. He was the best Russian player that year

4:43

in the Russian legue. We won the Russian League and we're

4:45

playing Sasca in our home gym

4:47

in perm, Russia, and towards

4:50

the end of the game, Chica came open and a guy

4:52

and shot faked Joven lane

4:55

and it wasn't Roy Rodgers on their team,

4:57

Rushy Laruez on the other team and Andre Kerlink

5:00

was our team, but it was another thing

5:02

Russian named corner Koff who

5:04

had played in Portland that just leveled him.

5:07

For the buzzer sounds and

5:10

we go to center court and do the you

5:12

know, clapping and put our hands up and thank

5:14

the crowd and our president of

5:16

our team comes down from you've

5:19

seen Rocky was a Rocky or

5:22

where they're in Russia, And you know back

5:24

then the Soviet Union guys just sit up at the top of these

5:26

big chairs. Well those places

5:28

still exist in the arenas, only instead

5:30

of leaders of Soviet Union and the party, it's

5:33

your.

5:33

Owner of the team.

5:33

So he comes down from on high and

5:36

says something to one of the guys at been off our bench, the six

5:38

to five kind of a ripped up dude, big muscular

5:40

guy. Our team goes one way

5:42

and our locker of their team goes to another way, and he's kind

5:44

of mulling around the court, and eventually I see him

5:46

go into the other team's locker room. Well

5:49

out the rest of the room is a friend of mine. I see him after

5:51

the game. He's like, craziest thing ever.

5:53

We're in a shower. That guy comes in fully closed

5:56

and knocks out My teammate

5:58

punches him a couple of times, knocks around, gets wet

6:00

in the shower.

6:01

Walks right out, walks to your locker room.

6:03

I was like, you want to hear something crazier When he got in

6:05

our locker room, the president of the team

6:07

gave him.

6:07

A five thousand dollars bonus in cash.

6:11

So tough guys do have a role, but

6:13

there's a time in which you step out of your role and it's

6:15

a little too much.

6:17

Trayvon Green's well passed that a little too much.

6:19

You would have.

6:19

Thought Jordan Poole would level them

6:21

off in understanding your ruin last year's team, But I

6:24

think he's just showing the frustration so in fact that this

6:26

year's team is worse, not better. Let's

6:29

get to part one. Here's John Higgins, who I

6:31

love to say. I call him friend, and

6:34

the more you listen to him, I think the more you like him

6:40

your basketball journey.

6:42

If I said, hey, close your

6:44

eyes and your first

6:46

memory as a kid

6:49

of playing basketball, it's where.

6:53

Playing basketball? It was that where

6:57

my dad taught and coached high

6:59

school bastoketball in Omaha, Nebraska was

7:01

at a little jim called Cathedral High

7:03

School. That's where I remember

7:06

starting to play basketballs a little kindergartener

7:08

because my older all my older brothers and

7:10

sisters were played and my

7:12

my dad was a coach there. That's where I

7:14

that's where I remember starting

7:16

my basketball career.

7:18

What was your dad like as a coach.

7:21

He hated referees, I

7:23

mean with a passion. My

7:27

dad was brutal on referees.

7:29

I mean brutal. I mean it was, it

7:32

was. He was a big man. He was six or five and about

7:34

two seventy five, big

7:36

man for back in those days. And uh

7:39

he was, he was. They were.

7:41

All the referees were scared to death of my dad.

7:43

I know that.

7:45

That's amazing.

7:46

So so is your career U

7:49

making making good with referees or is it all fuck

7:51

you to your dad?

7:52

Like what what?

7:54

No? No, it was making good. It was good. You know.

7:57

The funny thing is that, you know, when when

7:59

he got out of high school retired

8:01

all that stuff, he was the observer

8:03

at Creighton games. So he would help back

8:06

when they were in the Missouri Valley. He would help the

8:08

U the Missouri Valley

8:10

Conference, Eddie Jackson and Boom er Bin

8:13

with the observing officials and he would

8:15

grade him and that kind of stuff, and uh

8:17

so he got to learn at least my side a little

8:20

bit. However,

8:22

when I first started back when you played,

8:24

and he

8:27

used to go to games with me and he would

8:29

just torture me on the way home. I said, I

8:32

was tell my dad, dad, if you're going to

8:34

come with me, you got to be on my team now,

8:36

not on the coaches team. It

8:39

was brutal. He was really tough on referees.

8:42

It really was so okay.

8:44

So you grew up in Omahon, Debraska. What

8:46

was what was your high school crew? Like?

8:49

Oh, I was at I was an all state

8:51

basketball player, but I wasn't good enough

8:54

to be in a Division one. I played at University

8:56

of Basket Carney. Uh

8:58

And I was just a average player

9:01

at best. And

9:04

you know, we always had really good

9:06

teams. Joey went to the national tournament and

9:08

did really well, and that was an ANI back

9:11

then. That was the Division two back

9:14

when ANI I thought was pretty good.

9:16

Yeah, that was really good.

9:18

But that's been, that's been. You know, that's back

9:20

when Jack Sickman, those kind of

9:22

guys that Terry Porter played. It was kind

9:24

of by the way I guarded him and

9:26

I held him to forty and his average was like forty

9:28

six in the national tournament.

9:31

I might I think I might have had six points, but

9:33

he had forty. So I felt good about it. Uh.

9:37

Uh, I was just

9:39

an average player best and uh and

9:42

you know kind of how I got into officiating is

9:44

because the guys back then they had freshman

9:47

teams and

9:49

the reference didn't show up for a

9:51

junior college game versus star freshman

9:53

team. And our coach said, hey, twenty five

9:55

bucks and uh

9:58

and I and I twenty

10:00

five dollars. Back then, there's a lot of beer

10:02

money in your college. Now

10:04

you raised my hand. That's how I first started getting into

10:07

refereeing.

10:08

Well, first, what is where the Nebraska

10:10

Curry? Where is that in

10:12

the state.

10:14

It's about the middle of the state. It's from Omaha.

10:16

It's about two and a half hours

10:18

by car west of Omaha

10:21

between here and Denver basically.

10:24

And

10:27

how many people live.

10:28

In the town twenty five thousand.

10:31

And how many people go to the school?

10:34

Oh, there's probably seven or eight thousand right now.

10:37

Good time? Was it a good time? Oh?

10:39

We had a great time. It was a lot of fun, a lot

10:41

of fun.

10:42

Who is your coach?

10:44

Jerry Heezier? He

10:46

was a long time Well, he was a great coach.

10:49

He was an outstanding coach. He's very

10:51

he was very straight narrowed,

10:55

like no nonsense kind of a

10:57

guy. But he

10:59

was a great coach. And we went to I think we went

11:01

to the NAI National tournam at ten twelve years

11:03

in a row.

11:07

So so you what year is this

11:09

when you all of a sudden happened upon you

11:11

know, substitute refereeing for

11:13

for him for twenty five bucks.

11:16

So that was like eighty three eighty four.

11:19

Yeah, okay, so you get done

11:21

playing in what year?

11:23

Eighty four?

11:25

So you've done playing? What's your plan?

11:28

My plan? Well, I was coming back to Omaha

11:30

and I, uh, actually I was going to teach

11:33

and I didn't. That wasn't that

11:35

was a very good option. I did some things

11:39

that might were My dad was at school student

11:41

teaching that kind of stuff, and it

11:44

was like, yeah, this isn't. This

11:46

isn't for me. So I went into

11:48

and in the summers, uh to backtrack

11:51

into high school. Any even my college summers,

11:54

I was in the me and

11:56

my best friend did siding

11:58

and roofing for his own and

12:02

and and I thought, shoot, I could do that. So I went to

12:04

work for a company called pace Setter Windows and Doors.

12:06

So I sold the windows and doors for

12:09

six months and I'm like, this is ridiculous. The guy

12:11

come chasing me down the street up out

12:13

the front doors that I could do this myself. So

12:16

uh, we we started ourselves.

12:18

And then six months later he graduated from a Nebraska

12:21

mall and he moved to Chicago, and I

12:23

bought us tools for one thousand dollars and

12:26

or his half of the tools, and the

12:28

rest is history. Now we've we've we've

12:30

grown our business to uh decent

12:32

size.

12:33

So so come about your business to do windows? Windows?

12:35

Doors? What's it called?

12:37

Now? We know? We we we do. We're

12:39

a roofing, sighting, gutter company. So we

12:41

do all kinds of commercial residential roofing,

12:44

siding, and guttering. Uh. We've

12:47

uh we we travel. We don't just do it in

12:50

Nebraska, we do it in all other parts of

12:52

the country too. Uh. It's on high

12:54

end houses and in some

12:56

commercial properties.

12:57

So how long have you all

12:59

have you had this?

13:01

Eighty? I

13:04

eighty six. We started it. Yeah,

13:06

the incorporated in eighty seven. So

13:09

then we all we have a property business also

13:11

where we own and manage our own rental

13:14

properties.

13:15

When you say, well, it's you and who.

13:18

My family, my wife and kids.

13:21

Now my oldest son is thirty two and

13:23

he's he's uh, he's

13:25

going to be taking over the business here when whenever

13:28

I want to get out. I guess I don't

13:30

know. I think I'm out now because

13:32

they don't they don't care if I'm in the office

13:34

or not.

13:39

Okay, So you're starting this business.

13:42

When did you start the path becoming

13:45

one of the most renowned referees in college

13:47

basketball?

13:49

When did that path start?

13:50

Well, they happen. Well, buddy of mine named

13:52

Paul Caster got me into he refereed.

13:54

You.

13:54

I know that he was a big a guy, Missouri

13:57

Valley guy.

13:59

Uh.

13:59

He got me into it in a buddy

14:01

of mine ndarians. Although we

14:04

used to I used to work cyo basketball,

14:06

you know, third fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade,

14:09

and then I got within the year I

14:11

get into the high school level. The uh

14:15

you know, with my dad's people

14:18

that he knew. And and then my buddy

14:20

Paul Caster got me involved in the high school

14:22

guy. And next year, the next thing you know, I'm

14:24

working freshman JV in high

14:27

school and salling

14:29

year I worked my first

14:31

metro game. I thought it was the biggest thing in the world.

14:33

It was, you know, the large class in

14:36

Omaha for basketball, and

14:38

and

14:41

and I from was from the rest of

14:43

that.

14:43

Had your dad retired at this time?

14:47

Uh? Yeah, he had he is not coaching basketball

14:49

at this time. No, he was a athletic director

14:51

at another Catholic high school here

14:54

in town. Like we all went to our Catholic

14:56

high school. I had eight

14:59

brothers and sisters. Uh, and we

15:01

all went to the same high school, so

15:03

we uh. But at

15:05

that time my dad went to Ron Colleague

15:07

Catholic, where he was the athletic character.

15:10

So he wasn't all over. I did work

15:12

games at Rong College, Catholic, and I did work

15:14

a game where he was

15:16

Actually I think he was a coach at

15:19

Ron Collie and

15:21

my sister was a coach at Cathedral,

15:24

and it was it and I

15:26

think I don't want to I'm not sure if we teed him

15:29

or tee his assistantur teed a player. He

15:31

was still pissed off of me. Oh

15:33

my god, it was brutal. My

15:36

sister Cecilia was a coach for the

15:38

at Cathedral for a year or two

15:41

aroun colleague or one of them vice

15:43

versa. I'm not sure which was, but it was. That

15:46

was not fun.

15:47

That's that's amazing.

15:48

Okay, So late April actually I started, remember

15:50

do you remember Bruce Benedict. I

15:53

worked I worked Bruce benedict

15:55

first of basketball game ever officiated

15:58

was with me at a junior high game,

16:02

or not junior high game, JV

16:05

game at Cathedral High School

16:07

where I went to school. It's closed now, but

16:10

Bruce Bendedict started his little basketball

16:12

career after baseball. Actually it was

16:15

just when he was finishing up in baseball, in professional

16:18

baseball.

16:20

That's crazy.

16:22

Wait, so eight brothers and sisters, what's

16:24

the what's the age gap?

16:26

Like, how many I'm

16:28

second to the youngest, So I have my

16:30

oldest brother is seven,

16:33

the one

16:37

seventy one or seventy seventy one, like

16:40

it happened in ten years. My mom dad

16:42

had a lot of kids quickly.

16:44

So how many of your brothers and sisters

16:46

did you play basketball with in high school?

16:50

None of them. My sisters were too. My

16:52

oldest brother was a senior when I was a freshman,

16:55

and he was actually he was an All American. Got drafted

16:57

by Golden State Warriors back then. He

17:00

went to Carne also and back

17:02

of the day Joe Barry Carroll back when

17:04

they had ten rounds. He was at

17:06

he was the last pick in the tenth round and

17:10

he was close from evidently close to making the team. He

17:12

played in Iceland places like that.

17:16

Fox Sports Radio has the best sports

17:18

talk lineup in the nation. Catch all

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of our shows at Foxsports Radio dot

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com and within the iHeartRadio

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app search FSR to listen

17:27

live.

17:28

So you start your rep in high school

17:30

games. You have your sighting company

17:32

at the time, did

17:35

you how do you advance? Is it going

17:37

to camps?

17:39

So first

17:41

first, first thing Paul Caster told

17:43

me said, you got to go to this referee camp is

17:47

the Missouri Valley Referee Camp in

17:49

Saint Louis. And I and this is when they were just

17:51

starting three man. I had no clue

17:54

how to work three man, zero clue. I

17:56

went to this camp and they were just telling me where to go

17:58

and and David phil was

18:00

the boss uh back in the Missouri

18:02

Valley Conference dase uh in. Davy

18:05

Phillips was a Major League baseball empire

18:08

if you remember that name or not. He

18:11

uh he was out of Saint Louis

18:13

and he uh they so he put

18:15

me to this camp, and I did the camp, and I got

18:17

I went home and back then we

18:20

had the you know, the recordings on the on

18:22

the you don't have cell phones

18:24

and all that stuff. But there

18:26

was a tape digital tape thing.

18:28

So there was my

18:31

my girlfriend at the time, wasn't my wife

18:33

yet she said some guy named Davy

18:35

Fields co bullshit. He filled

18:38

call. There's no way called because I felt

18:41

like I you know, I refereed, I mean

18:43

did the place, but I had no idea positioning

18:45

mechanics, that kind of stuff. He goes,

18:47

No, he called. I'm like, okay, So I called.

18:50

I actually called the back and

18:53

and he hired me. And I was in the eighty

18:55

seven eighty eight uh

18:58

that year, and then I were two

19:00

or three years for Davy and

19:02

then Davey Phillips quit and

19:05

took the old was it the Great Midwest

19:07

or the Great Midwest

19:09

back then when Louisville and Cincinnati,

19:12

when that league was tough, I

19:14

mean really hard. So he took that. He

19:16

took that job. And boomer bin came off the floor.

19:18

You remember Jim boomer Bain refereed you.

19:20

I'm sure, I

19:23

mean he was on every big national game there

19:25

was.

19:26

Uh. He uh.

19:28

He took the job, and then I and I

19:30

then uh and every year up to then I

19:32

only worked two three games and then

19:34

the one the one year his first year,

19:37

a guy couldn't make a game at Northern

19:40

Iowa and

19:42

uh, so he had me

19:44

up there.

19:45

He called.

19:46

He was frankly trying to call around, and I got to

19:48

the I'm like, yeah, i'll get there. At a high school game,

19:51

I'll get there. So I drive

19:53

up there. It's about four hours and

19:56

I ended up whacking up coach and

20:00

and he thought I did unbelievable. And boer

20:02

Bang was a stickler on bench de korm

20:04

player to Orham. Next thing I know,

20:06

I work. He gives me three maybe four more

20:09

games. And I worked the Valley Term at that year, first

20:11

first time he's ever had. He didn't know my name. He

20:13

just called me big guy, Hey, big guy.

20:16

Uh.

20:17

And then I worked the Valley term. The

20:19

next year. I got hired in the Big Eight and

20:21

wow from a guy my named John Erickson. Yeah,

20:24

and then I went from there.

20:26

So you're ref in the Big Eight. This is late eighties,

20:29

early ninety Yeah.

20:31

What do you make a game?

20:32

By the way, Oh, my first check from

20:34

the Missouri val was three hundred and twenty five

20:36

dollars. I thought I died went to

20:38

heaven. I thought, shoot, that's twenty five

20:41

thirty back high school games and

20:43

I worked one college game for that. I was. My

20:45

first game was at Drake and the old Bets

20:47

Audi touring.

20:49

So you're in the Big eight, go ahead,

20:51

yeah, okay, So this is Billy

20:53

Tubbs. Is that Oklahoma?

20:55

Oh?

20:55

My god, Norm Stewart Stewart

20:58

is that Missouri? H

21:00

Coach Sutton first? He had coach ham Lem.

21:02

Hamilton letter

21:04

Hamilton first and coach Sutton. Yeah.

21:07

Uh, the guy the crazy Joe

21:09

from Colorado.

21:12

Johnny Or from Iowa State Joe Harrington,

21:15

Johnny Orr, Roy

21:18

Williams or No.

21:20

Oh, but I think it was that Nebraska. Wow.

21:24

Who was Larry Brown? Then Larry

21:26

Brown's last year? Then Roy

21:28

Williams. Okay,

21:32

so what are you?

21:34

What's what's the first big, big

21:36

A game you remember doing?

21:39

Iowa State Missouri was

21:41

the first big one that I ever worked.

21:43

And it was with I don't remember a guy by named

21:45

ron Zetcher. Remember

21:47

ron Zetcher from Saint Louis had real big ears

21:50

and yes to go like this with his hair,

21:52

and he had real deep in set eyes. Iowa

21:55

State Missouri, and

21:58

and I was a young guy, and I can't I

22:00

think our other guy was Billy Westbrook

22:03

out of Saint Louis. And

22:05

I'm getting my ass eating out by both

22:07

coaches. Finally Zecher went over

22:10

to uh, Norm Stewart

22:12

knocked that ship off, Norm, otherwise,

22:15

this ship is gonna go in the tank. Leave that young

22:17

kid alone. I'll give him credit. I'll

22:20

give him credit. He didn't. He knocked it off

22:22

and it was up. And now you remember those days I

22:24

was staate a Missouri. Was a hard, hard game with

22:26

the Antlers in the one end. Yes, I

22:28

mean they I'm sure they tortured you when

22:30

they were when you played and came in there

22:32

was brutal. I mean that was they were nasty,

22:35

brutal people, hot dogs and ship coming

22:37

on the floor. I mean it was brutal.

22:40

And they're right on top of you.

22:41

So what did the Antlers have on you?

22:45

Oh they called me pretty boy and

22:48

West Coast boy and Hollywood

22:51

and all that, you know, all the all

22:53

the ship today I get through.

22:56

You do have really good hair. And

22:58

I'm sure back then the hair was it

23:00

was even more of it.

23:01

It was even Oh yeah, there was more of

23:03

it. Yeah, it was not so high. It wasn't

23:06

so high up high for it kind of like you and I got

23:11

and I caught a lot of shit about that, that's for sure.

23:16

That older crew, the Johnny Ors,

23:18

the Billy Tubbs, the Norm Stewart. It was

23:21

actually a sweetheart when

23:23

when the games games not going.

23:25

On, all of them were

23:27

and they you know what they most of them now

23:30

are They were the greatest guys in the world when the

23:32

games aren't going on. I mean they were like

23:34

night and day. I was, it

23:36

was funny. I was, I did I

23:39

put the referees together for so

23:41

called challenge. And Steve

23:44

Barnes which is longtime assistant with Larry

23:46

Stacey and those guys when he was a head coach.

23:48

I mean, this guy he was

23:51

always angry, always had the worst angry

23:53

face in the world, and he was an

23:55

asshole in the sideline. Said what now

23:57

he's just the nicest man in the world to me. Uh,

24:01

It's just it's amazing how different

24:03

well they you know, coaches are

24:05

different. I mean they think with their heart instead

24:08

of their brains when it comes to you

24:10

know, when light ball action happens. But

24:12

outside of the court, they're just like we are. They're

24:14

just there's they're there any different

24:17

than than we are. But yeah, they're

24:19

but outside the court, like uh, Norm

24:22

Steers were really good guy Eddie said was a wonderful

24:24

man. I mean, all

24:26

those guys were They're good guys off the court,

24:28

just they're just fighting for their teams. They're fighting for

24:30

their big bait check. They're getting.

24:32

You mentioned bench to Koram and

24:35

and you know how you manage that eighties

24:38

early nineties, you guys let a

24:40

lot more stuff go than you let go now.

24:44

Oh yeah, yeah, I think that

24:46

was the same thing. I think, Doug. I think

24:48

that was partly because remember

24:50

the NBA back then, I

24:53

mean it was very similar to I mean they

24:55

let I mean they let that there

24:57

were there were wars back then. Now

25:00

you touch a guy uh in some in

25:02

some parts of it and it's a fall,

25:04

and that's kind of they want the freedom of movement

25:07

and that kind of stuff that back then

25:09

the coaches said a lot more than they they

25:12

say now, I think, And

25:14

that's partly because, I

25:16

mean there were mandated by

25:18

the n c Double A or or and

25:20

by our leagues that you know, the bench

25:22

decorum is is part of sportsman.

25:25

You know, they want the sportsmanship part of it being

25:29

good.

25:32

Well, so did your

25:34

girlfriend, now wife, did she come into

25:36

these games?

25:39

She would go to the high school games. Yeah,

25:41

she would go to the high school games.

25:43

Why why would you subject yourself

25:45

to that?

25:46

Oh, that's a good question, That's a really

25:48

good question. She

25:52

is funny. She she didn't know anything about

25:54

basketball, didn't She's not much of a sports

25:57

person, but she is.

25:58

Now.

25:59

Now while you're doing all this, remember this

26:02

is Kansas come up national championship.

26:04

I remember in the year they went won the national

26:07

championship, Oklahoma lost in

26:09

the final four.

26:10

Like this is peak Big eight.

26:14

Eddie Sutton probably coaches, I mean the

26:17

offensively not very well, but defensively

26:19

he is. I mean, you guys have scored fifty points

26:21

in a game, and it was slow

26:23

down style basketball, but it was done

26:25

the right way. But

26:28

I was I love, I love how Johnny order

26:31

I love I mean, I liked their style too.

26:33

They got up and down and

26:35

it was just a different it was totally different

26:37

basketball. It

26:40

seemed to be back then than it is now. First

26:45

time he officiated in the fog, it

26:48

was I don't know what year

26:50

was. I think it was probably.

26:53

Ninety three,

26:56

in ninety three, ninety ninety

26:59

three, somewhere in that ballpark, and

27:01

it was It's one of those feelings that

27:03

you just walk in, You're.

27:04

Like, oh god, you're in this big, this shrine

27:06

of basketball, and

27:09

that's it doesn't matter. And they were playing

27:11

like anti

27:13

high school. It was as like the exhibition

27:16

type game and they're going to beat them by a hunter. But it still

27:19

felt the same. It's like back

27:21

when you guys had a rolling in Oklahoma

27:23

State. I mean, that place is full every

27:25

single night, and it felt the

27:27

same. It was big.

27:30

It was big to me, I know that.

27:32

Uh.

27:32

And it's still a special place to play. I mean,

27:34

I don't know if you've been to Grand

27:37

Canyon or not, but that place is rocking

27:39

and rolling.

27:40

So my my brother was an assistant

27:42

there with the women for the last

27:45

up until this over the last three years,

27:48

and so even for the women,

27:50

they'll put one thousand people.

27:52

Or so into that place.

27:54

It's crazy. It's crazy, and I

27:56

mean, did you watch it last night?

27:57

Yes, it was insane.

27:59

I watched it. I

28:02

was there in person when they played. Was

28:05

oh u t Arlington and

28:08

that place is crazy, which

28:10

is absolutely crazy. And they got they got a rolling,

28:13

and you know they're there. They may be different than

28:15

other other teams at that level,

28:17

so I think they have in I own money.

28:19

They have a million dollars in I own

28:21

money.

28:23

Do they really? Holy

28:26

smokes? Wow, wow

28:29

crazy. That's a great environment, Cameron,

28:31

indoor is a great environment. Obviously, back

28:35

in the back in the day the Oklahoma

28:38

State when it was the

28:40

roof was lowered, that was a.

28:41

Great It was incredible. Okay, So

28:44

what's it like. You're

28:46

still pretty young doing it right,

28:48

and like,

28:52

look, you're evaluated by the.

28:53

Guy who hires you.

28:55

But these coaches at

28:58

it now and especially at the time, are gigantic

29:01

personalities, you know, Roy Williams,

29:04

Eddy Sutton, Norm.

29:05

Stewart, et cetera.

29:07

What what is that like as a younger

29:09

guy where you know that

29:12

they're gonna call about you if

29:14

they think you didn't do them right.

29:16

What's that experience like?

29:17

Because that's the the prevailing wisdom

29:20

of the college basketball coaches, especially

29:23

the younger ones, is Hey, they're all

29:25

scared of the older guys because

29:27

the older guys know their bosses and

29:30

you know, they feel like they got a bad, bad

29:32

shake of the officiating.

29:34

Well, then they're they're going to.

29:36

Ah, I'm not gonna be working you know, the

29:38

bigger games, and I want advance. What what's

29:40

the real experience like starting

29:43

for when you're a young guy, before.

29:45

You became an old when the older.

29:46

Guys, I would probably

29:49

say that when I you know,

29:51

when I first started. For me, when you

29:53

get the big games and what experienced

29:55

the referees like high Tower and Wilmer

29:58

and O'Neill and guys like that,

30:00

it was it was extremely Uh,

30:03

you're scared to death gonna work the

30:05

the Roy Williams

30:07

and and Johnny Orr and

30:09

Norman Stewart's and aye, you're you're originally

30:12

scared to death. Hold on

30:14

one second, could you please our dog

30:16

is he's okay? Now? Anyway,

30:20

you're scared to death. But you

30:22

know you had to earn your stripes, uh,

30:25

with the other with the older referees,

30:28

and if you if you showed

30:30

some courage with them,

30:33

most of those guys like

30:35

that and and would would

30:37

would back you with your supervisor. So

30:41

and I get that now being the boss of the guys

30:43

out west, I get the you know, the

30:46

you know, a top referee would say, Hey,

30:48

that guy's got courage, he's got he's got balls,

30:50

he can he'll take care of business. You know. One

30:54

thing I always said, Yeah, the coach may not

30:56

like me, but he'll respect me, and he'll know I'll

30:59

take I'll I'll take John

31:01

Higgins on the road any day of the week because

31:03

he's not going to be intimidated by the crowd or

31:05

the coach. And that's hard

31:07

that Once you learn that as

31:09

a young official, Uh, that

31:12

gives you more and more confidence that you

31:14

know you belong and you could do the

31:17

job and

31:20

no matter what an environment you're in and what coach

31:22

it is.

31:24

So how do you do that? How do you find that balance?

31:26

You want to make the right call, but

31:29

you also want to have you

31:31

know, as you said, like balls and the

31:34

toughness to be like you know what I

31:36

mean, It's like you want to be

31:38

defiant. I guess

31:41

here's the question. How do you balance

31:43

the emotion? Like, like I said, you want to

31:46

show that you belong, that you're not scared. On the other

31:48

hand, you still want to call the game.

31:50

Like what what are you talking

31:52

to yourself? What's the message to yourself? How

31:54

do you stand up and do your job and

31:56

do it right without going too

31:58

far one way or.

31:59

Too far the other?

32:01

Probably be really focused on what

32:03

you're doing and do your job well and make the right

32:05

calls and believe in what you do

32:09

uh, you know, and

32:11

then not everybody has that part

32:14

of it. And when I say that it

32:17

and it's a factor that you know, there's

32:19

the great basketball players have that. It can't

32:22

you can't teach that it part. You can't teach

32:24

that judgment part. If you got good

32:26

judgment as an official, you'll probably

32:28

doesn't matter what your mechanics are like or what have

32:31

you, you'll be you

32:33

all the chance to be pretty good. If you don't

32:36

have that good judgment, doesn't

32:38

matter what you're if you have courage and that stuff.

32:40

You have bad judgment, you get all your plays wrong, You're

32:43

not gonna doesn't matter you whack guys,

32:45

They're gonna they're gonna fire you because you got bad

32:47

judgment. That you have to have both.

32:49

You have to have courage. You have to have good judgment

32:52

to be a really good referee. And you have to have you

32:54

know, I always say, you've gotta have to be you

32:57

have to have a little bit of pricking you to be a good referee,

32:59

otherwise you'll get you will get tortured

33:01

out there.

33:02

Sure, No, you have to have I mean, honestly, to

33:04

be a to be a pack of a player, you got to have a

33:07

little brick in.

33:07

You right, exactly. Absolutely,

33:09

Look at all the great players of all time, they

33:12

had that that you know that, Okay,

33:15

you're doing this, I'm gonna kick your ass. I'm gonna

33:17

shove it right down your throat.

33:19

Yes, yes, absolutely,

33:22

So when people talk about mechanics,

33:25

hey, when officials talking about mechanics, some of it's

33:27

positioning.

33:28

But what else is it?

33:29

What goes into the mechanics officienta

33:31

game properly?

33:34

Oh, it's where you stand, It's

33:37

it's how you look. It's how you lift your your

33:39

fist, how confident you look when you

33:41

you put your fist up, your hand up, you

33:44

know, just just a lot of it

33:46

has to do with positioning, on

33:49

how you rotate in your within your position.

33:52

Uh, there's a there, there's a lot that goes into

33:54

the mechanics part of it. Uh, because

33:58

you could be one step to the left, one step

34:00

to the right, are and you're being the

34:02

wrong spot on certain plays.

34:04

So you know, we're taught a

34:07

lot of different positioning things

34:09

for mechanics. Still, but it's you

34:11

can tell if the guy's comfortable in his in

34:14

his body and his mechanics, you

34:17

know, with what you know, he's got the fist

34:19

up the right way, he's pointing the right direction. You know that

34:22

kind of stuff. But you can tell by

34:24

his confidence if he's sure or not on his calls

34:26

to buy his mechanics, how he how he

34:29

how he, how he presents to the table, how he

34:31

walks out to the table, runs out whatever

34:33

to the table. That's what I'm talking about. When you

34:36

have when the guy's confident, has good mechanics.

34:39

When uh, it's also you're also part of

34:41

a team, right, so you have to work Oh

34:43

yeah, work together? What what's that dynamic

34:46

like when you guys get to the gym

34:49

and you first meet guys and

34:51

and remember early on you knew

34:53

of these guys, but you didn't know him nearly as well.

34:56

What's it like in trying to figure out, Okay, how am

34:58

I going to work.

34:59

With this guy?

35:02

Well, a lot of it has to do with you

35:05

know, it depends whoever the crew

35:07

chief is is a big deal on

35:10

who you

35:13

know, how good your game is going to go. If you've got a good

35:15

crew chief, it's a good communicator

35:18

with with your other officials here, you one,

35:20

you two, Uh, you have a chance

35:22

to have a good game if you're if you're

35:25

not a good communicator and and

35:28

you know, not well respected by your you one

35:30

you too. You can see a game like that

35:32

that's that could go down the hill really

35:34

fast? Uh you

35:37

could? You know, all the best officials are really good

35:39

communicators and really good teachers

35:42

and have good pregames in your

35:44

locker room. And that's a big part of it, especially

35:46

for a young guys. I tell young guys

35:49

just listen, listen what the what the crew

35:51

chiefs got to say? Uh, and

35:53

and do what they tell you to do, and you'll probably

35:55

be okay and work

35:58

as a crew.

36:03

That's it for part one with John Higgins. Part two

36:05

You're going to love, including why

36:07

get out? And what now? And

36:09

what would you fix about the game? Reminded

36:12

the Doug Gottlief shows three to five Eastern. We

36:14

also have a stay available daily

36:17

and podcast forms type in Doug Gotlief you can check it

36:19

out in the meantime. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug

36:21

gotlie This is all ball