0:06

Hey, what up. Welcome in.

0:07

I'm dog Gottlieb. This is all ball.

0:11

Look, I can dispense with the pleasant trees. Let's

0:13

just get to some of the stuff we've seen in college basketball.

0:16

A couple of things is in

0:18

this past week we've seen Arkansas takedown

0:21

Duke and Kansas beat

0:23

Yukon. The Kansas Yukon gap

0:25

was a great basketball game if

0:28

possible, and I know Yukon

0:31

fans will forever say, you know, we got screwed

0:33

in the officiating, and that happens when you're

0:35

in the fog. I don't think it was I

0:37

don't think the officiating was terrible. Hunter

0:41

Dickinson is a hard guy to officiate. He's

0:44

incredibly physical and he does

0:46

complain a lot, but he is

0:48

a very talented player. And big

0:51

guys in many ways are at a disadvantage in

0:54

terms of how the game is officiated these days,

0:57

especially guys a scoring a low post, because you can be so

0:59

physical the low post, and yet you can't be physical

1:01

out on the court or or

1:04

sometimes in screening situations. So

1:08

the first thing is that those are

1:10

two places, and I know there's others. I watched the

1:12

Xavier Houston game Xavier's always

1:15

an incredible place that

1:19

I know.

1:20

It's like chicken or the egg. But I'll give you

1:22

an example i've

1:25

done. I'm doing consulting work with Oklahoma

1:27

State this year.

1:28

And granted Oklahoma State has

1:30

not had the recent success of Arkansas,

1:32

definitely not had the success of Kansas,

1:35

but a one proud fan base.

1:37

You know, you end up having six seven

1:39

thousand people for creating a ranked team to

1:41

come in and play, and the difference

1:43

is or maybe you go

1:45

to any of these games. It's really weird

1:48

how fans are in most

1:50

places, not all places, the basketball places

1:53

it's not this way, but in most places it's

1:55

show me.

1:57

Now.

1:57

Look, I grant you that our

2:00

Arkansas getting Duke on their home floors

2:02

is pretty special night.

2:03

But like Arkansas, I have been struggling.

2:05

You know, they were

2:08

like a five hundred team, and

2:10

so to have your biggest

2:12

crowd ever in Fayetteville,

2:15

granted it's for Duke. In many

2:17

ways, that's the difference in winning and losing

2:19

games. And it's like, well, if

2:21

you'd win more, we'd show up more. But if

2:23

you show up more, we'd win more.

2:27

And I think there's a

2:29

lot of there's there's just truth

2:31

to that that are undeniable.

2:34

But let's let's dig in on a little bit of the meat.

2:36

What's wrong with Duke is Duke turn around and lost to

2:38

Georgia Tech two straight roadmans. First, there's

2:40

home and road in college basketball, and I

2:43

love the John shire is unlike his

2:46

predecessor Mike Rychevsky, But some of it

2:48

is a you know, it's at a conference scheduling, right,

2:50

that's the acc SEC

2:54

showdown, So they had to go on the road.

2:56

But you know how often like it's

2:58

a celebration for all that

3:00

Duke has accomplished when they go on the road and

3:02

they're the biggest game that team has

3:05

been in. Arkansas is a proud program, the

3:08

biggest program you could ever

3:10

see.

3:11

I mean, there's a couple of things. I think.

3:14

One probably still

3:16

playing too many guys and a lot of coaches

3:18

I speak with are

3:20

in that same boat where

3:24

you know, part of this, I'm sure is the portal

3:26

I'm not gonna lesten I'm being denial of how

3:28

things work in that you

3:31

just can't lose everybody every year, and

3:34

you make some promises and

3:37

I'm sure there's some nil

3:39

directed at a bunch of different players, and you're like,

3:41

look, we allocated resources

3:43

to this player. We have to at least see what he

3:45

can do. And so it causes

3:48

you. This is a lot like in AAU basketball

3:51

where you got payers and you got

3:53

players, you know, and you're like, well,

3:55

this kid came to practice that week and this kid's dad,

3:57

you know, face to the team ban and

3:59

this.

3:59

You know. Now it's

4:02

obviously different, but you know.

4:03

I when you're around these programs

4:06

enough, there is at least a

4:08

very small portion a portion of

4:11

hey, who do we take a look at and

4:14

in what situations?

4:15

At least a portion of it is some

4:18

of the nil stuff, the transfer portal stuff.

4:20

We don't want to lose everybody every year, and we

4:22

definitely don't want to lose half

4:24

of our team checking out because we're

4:26

only playing seven guys or six.

4:27

Guys to start the season. That

4:31

said, there's other reasons.

4:33

One is you don't really know what you have, and

4:35

whatever you think you have, you don't know what you have

4:37

until you play them in front of eighteen thousand people, because

4:40

people react differently in front

4:42

of eighteen thousand people than they

4:44

do and it's an empty practice gym

4:46

and you're going up against the team, you know, and

4:49

the ball screen coverage that you're very well

4:51

aware of.

4:51

How to manipulate.

4:54

But I think that part of the do thing

4:56

is you play too many guys. The

5:00

dude thing is you have some really young

5:02

players. I mean even

5:05

even you know Proctor has come back

5:07

for year two, like Philipowski's

5:10

a stud. Then those guys playing

5:12

a lot last year, but you

5:14

know Procter wasn't like he was playing thirty five minutes

5:16

and he's still only a sophomore and this is a much

5:18

bigger role. But I think

5:21

it's all the whirling pieces around that you're

5:23

trying to figure out. And

5:26

I thought Eric Musselman did a great job of

5:29

not guarding the non shooters

5:31

for Duke. And look,

5:35

on some level, you have to you have

5:37

to change how you play when teams play

5:39

kind of a one man zone with the shop

5:42

blocker. I mean that's having seen that

5:44

Creighton game up close against Oklahoma State

5:46

and I watched all the film leading up to it,

5:49

that's how they play right where they press

5:51

up on three

5:54

or four perimeter players force every

5:56

everything into the lane. And he got Ryan Kalkbrenner,

5:59

who's seven point one and does a great job of not

6:01

fowling in the lane, kind of

6:03

daring you to take and make mid range

6:05

jump shots or those little floater shots

6:08

in two on ones, and it's

6:10

those are the shots you don't necessarily

6:13

want to take when you're a coach. That's not

6:15

what we're that's not what you're shooting

6:17

for. So the first thing for Duke

6:19

is I think they're playing too many guys, and I think that will

6:22

work itself out. I do think that

6:25

that if you watched John Shire last year, he seemed

6:27

to figure out what he had by about this

6:29

time or into January, and

6:32

it is inorganic to have conference

6:34

play. You know, I used to really

6:36

hate I don't like conference play this time

6:38

of year, but

6:41

you almost wish that everybody had like a four.

6:43

Game conference stretch.

6:45

I'll give you a scheduling thought in

6:47

a moment, but anyway,

6:50

I working back to Duke playing

6:52

too many guys.

6:54

That's really kind of what it comes down to.

6:56

And you're at this point of the year where

6:59

once you kind of get to January, you're hoping

7:01

you're freshmen, the good ones.

7:04

They've evolved some, but you know

7:06

that the juniors and seniors

7:09

can kind of carry you.

7:10

But you have your juniors and seniors for

7:12

the most part, because they're not

7:14

as talented as guys that have

7:16

left. That makes any sense, I

7:20

mean, you look around the country and you'll notice

7:22

that some of the starting lineups are evolving where the younger

7:24

players are starting to take Oh why is that? Because

7:27

when they got there, they weren't ready and they're still

7:29

probably not ready now, but

7:32

they have a higher ceiling, or the thought is they have a

7:34

higher ceiling than the older players.

7:36

Now, some teams just have older players. They're going

7:39

to ride or die with them. I think that's what you have

7:41

from Creighton, for example. But

7:44

the Duke thing, a lot of it is playing to any pieces.

7:46

A lot of it is trying to figure out how it's really hard

7:48

to win with young guys and

7:51

people have you know, because we see Duke a

7:53

lot. They got them scouted and

7:57

you know, forever this has been an issue with Duke.

8:00

Duke and I don't

8:01

they don't play as much that way

8:04

defensively, but you know, there was probably

8:06

a ten year span there where Duke all

8:08

they did defensively was get up

8:11

the line and try and pressure you, and

8:13

it didn't matter who they were

8:15

playing against. That's

8:17

how they played right. That's

8:20

how they played up the line, pressuring

8:22

everything. Matter of fact, the twenty ten team that

8:25

won the national championship, that was the one team

8:27

you know, I'm always going

8:29

to be the guy. They called them alarmingly unathletic,

8:32

and the crazy part was that they

8:34

were alarmingly on athletic at that time.

8:37

Here's the contextup. But they played Arizona State,

8:39

who I think had James Harden in Madison Square

8:42

Garden and they got just carved

8:44

up by Arizona State. And they got

8:46

carved up because they were trying to pressure everywhere

8:48

defensively, and they

8:52

had Nolan Smith and John Shire then

8:55

Kyle Singler as well, so

8:57

you didn't It's not like.

8:58

You had the freakiest athletes

9:02

on Earth.

9:03

And when they changed their lineup and

9:05

put Brian Zubek in, they

9:07

played much more back

9:10

off the line, you know, help

9:12

oriented defense where they.

9:14

Just muled you on the glass and

9:16

with their size in a lane. Like

9:19

again, no one's ever gone like, yeah, you

9:21

know.

9:22

I mean the Duke guys have told me like, of course you were right,

9:25

but they didn't realize the

9:27

adjustment.

9:27

The coach k adjustment in style mid.

9:30

Season changed forever the trajectory

9:32

of that team, and Zubec became

9:34

a dominant big guy for them based upon

9:36

how they were playing. They couldn't play up the line with the guys they

9:38

were playing with. One of the reasons

9:41

that the Greg Paulis struggled

9:43

in his career. Greg paulso really good player,

9:46

really good player, but what he was was

9:49

a point guard who could really pressure, who

9:51

could pressure that way defensively. That's just not

9:54

who he was or will ever

9:56

be. The point is

9:58

that Duke always played one way. And one of

10:00

the things that coaches run into this time of the year

10:02

is because you haven't

10:05

self scouted in practice, right,

10:07

even when you play in scrimmages, secret

10:09

scrimmages, nobody doesn't guard guys,

10:12

And now you get into games and people get you completely

10:14

scouted.

10:15

Some people won't. We're not gonna guard.

10:16

We're not gonna go past, you know, the free throw line

10:18

to make him shoot where some guys

10:20

you know, we're going to change how he played ball, string coverings,

10:23

whatever. Well, that causes

10:26

everything you run you kind

10:28

of have to tweak and adjust to and it's

10:30

not easy. So I'd

10:32

say that's the other thing is now Dukes being scouted

10:34

and as

10:37

probably the most watched college basketball team or

10:39

one of the two or three buzz watch college boss people.

10:41

That's the adjustment they're going to have to make.

10:43

And then trying to integrate, you know, Caleb

10:45

Foster into that lineup, who obviously,

10:47

you know, we always have a guy who in the Champions

10:50

Classic as freshman, who makes a bunch of shots

10:52

and we get an unreal sense of who they are. I

10:55

love Caleb Foster. I saw him last year. He was you

10:59

know, those two Jeremy and Caleb Foster

11:01

were two dynamic guards in California.

11:04

And you know it's interesting, you know, Brownie James

11:06

is so high up on these draft

11:09

wars.

11:09

This makes no sense.

11:10

Those dud just dominated him, Caleb

11:14

specifically when he played against They played against four

11:16

times last year in high school. But both

11:18

of them are just freshmen and

11:21

you know, their reputation and their upside demand

11:23

minutes. But as freshmen you're going to be

11:25

super inconsistent, and

11:27

that's what they're running into. And now they're scouted

11:30

as well. So

11:32

Purdue loses again to

11:34

Northwestern, and look,

11:36

you can lose in conference play on the road. Welsh

11:39

Ryan is what

11:41

a cool place. I mean, just like

11:43

historically, I hope people understand,

11:45

and I know it's been open for a while now,

11:49

but I hope people understand that was the worst

11:52

gym. It was a gym, worst

11:54

gym in the Big Ten by a mile.

11:57

All the other teams in the Big Ten, I'm

12:00

trying to think of that, they've all made kind of the same.

12:03

You know, Breslian is really good, but

12:06

you know, you look at what Penn State did where

12:10

they reck Hall was like perfect

12:13

college basketball venue. Now

12:15

they play in the Price Jordan Center.

12:17

They've done it for twenty years. It's

12:20

just cavernous. It doesn't make any

12:22

sense. You know, Wisconsin's

12:25

place, the Coal Center is big,

12:27

and they don't lose there often, but there's no

12:29

real atmosphere there.

12:31

Ohio State's shotten Steen Center

12:33

or.

12:33

Whatever, Like it's just a big it's

12:35

like a bad NBA arena. Where

12:38

what Northwestern did was they gutted

12:40

the inside and kept

12:42

it at seven thousand seats and

12:44

they just made it an incredible venue.

12:47

And I can't.

12:48

Implore college

12:51

administrators enough and like, look, a

12:53

lot of schools don't have this opportunity.

12:55

But oklahom State's per for example, right like that

12:58

place is awesome.

12:59

It's thirteen. It's too damn big. You

13:02

know.

13:02

It's not just that Oklahoma

13:05

State hasn't been as good. It's also

13:07

that there's the thunder who wasn't there. But just

13:10

like seven thousand seats its great,

13:13

A Pactorina is great.

13:15

You know.

13:16

And I

13:19

think Northwestern is the best remodel.

13:22

They're an SMU. Those are the two best

13:24

remodels. Where they took a

13:27

small gym and instead

13:29

of falling in love with hey, we

13:31

can put a couple of more thousand seats or

13:33

build some new kind of NBA

13:36

style place where we can get concerts in

13:38

and whatever, and

13:40

they do it. They do those things obviously, sometimes

13:42

either to get into a tournament bid or to get

13:45

to make more money off

13:47

concerts forever. The

13:52

ones that just keep it the stops New Mexico

13:55

even they went down I think four thousand

13:57

seats back when they redid the pit.

13:59

But wels Ryan is awesome. But

14:02

the warning sign it has for

14:04

Purdue is kind.

14:05

Of we think that the only way

14:07

to beat them is with small

14:11

What was with really athletic guards getting

14:13

after Braden Smith and

14:15

with

14:18

with five men who can shoot, who

14:20

can shoot threes and drag Zach Edy out because

14:22

that's what they've lost. You know, the last two years

14:24

in the tournament is to low majors,

14:27

but Northwestern's ability

14:29

to beat Purdue granted at home two consecutive

14:32

years. How the Cats

14:34

play, You could be happier

14:37

Chris Collins. Everyone I know,

14:39

everyone I know in Evanston

14:42

last year was like, and

14:45

we're gonna have to fire Chris Collins and he's an awesome

14:48

dude, Like, well, so why

14:50

do you have to fire him?

14:51

Like, well, I just program's kind of stuck

14:53

in not really

14:55

doing anything.

14:56

And then of course they go to the NCAA tournament and remember

14:58

before he got there, they've never been to an NCAH. But

15:01

I just I'm not sure I really understood

15:03

that whole thing. But they play beautiful

15:05

basketball in terms of the consistency

15:08

of their movement within all the actions

15:10

that they run.

15:11

And look, they they really

15:14

attacked Zach Edy.

15:15

And Zach Edy, you know, he fouled out like pretty

15:18

much every big guy that Northwestern

15:20

had, and yet they just kept

15:22

coming at him and changing

15:24

their coverages and trying to limit

15:27

his pain touches. And they're really quick

15:29

and you know, forcing him off the block, and

15:32

you know, when he's not two to four feet away,

15:35

it's a different game, and.

15:36

He does struggle to move out of his zone.

15:40

That was an amazing play they ran for

15:42

him, them to win the game or

15:45

just send the ball game to overtime.

15:46

And they just threw it up to him.

15:47

And he's just bigger than everybody

15:49

catches and lays it in with like zero point six seconds

15:52

ago.

15:53

But I again, the point is not.

15:55

That that Northwestern

15:58

can win a home game again it's the number

16:00

one ranked team in the country, or that they have produced

16:02

number it's more how do they do it?

16:05

And they did it a different way.

16:06

Yes, they some of their fives can

16:09

step out and shoot, and they're

16:11

you know those big ten teams, they're all loaded

16:13

up with you know, two or three

16:16

six foot ten dudes, so he can throw multiple

16:18

bodies at him. But I thought it was

16:20

the movement, the actions, you

16:23

know, not just getting caught up. So many teams

16:25

they say, hey, we want to attack Zach Edy

16:27

on a ball screen, so they put them on a ball screen, you

16:30

know, right the start of every possession.

16:32

Whereas what Northwestern does is, you

16:34

know, they really moved around, coming some slight of

16:36

hand stuff and then they get Boo booie kind

16:38

of in that two on one where

16:41

he's you know, coming downhill and

16:43

he's got a great floater game, really

16:45

good in those middies, and you

16:47

know, just a volume of attacks on a big guy,

16:50

and I think some of that wears him out on the offensive

16:52

end as well. And then you know, like,

16:54

look, Braden Smith is good, but

16:56

there are times in which he still looks like a sophomore.

16:59

They don't don't really have They

17:01

don't have a wing who

17:03

can go get you a bucket.

17:04

They're not built that way.

17:08

And you know they're a good

17:10

team that that Purdue

17:13

continues to be a good team that doesn't have an NBA

17:15

player.

17:16

Can will Zach you be playing the NBA? Probably?

17:20

Yeah, I mean he'll make it. He'll make a ton overseas.

17:24

Will you play in the NBA? Probably,

17:26

But you're like, what does that matter? Well, when you

17:29

have a guy who can just all things

17:31

are going bad and break you down, and maybe not even.

17:33

An NBA player, like like Boo Boo.

17:35

He's not an NBA player, but he's

17:37

one of those stud college players who can

17:39

just end the game. Hey, I'm just gonna get you a bucket,

17:42

and they don't don't.

17:43

Really built that way, really

17:45

built that way.

17:47

So I still like Purdue and

17:49

I think they can win a national championship because

17:51

I don't think this is a year in which the top teams

17:54

have a lot of those guys, or especially

17:56

have an older guy like that. But

17:58

you can see that some of the same old

18:01

Purdue issues peak their head out

18:03

at inopportune moments. So

18:06

my guest today is Jason Belzer.

18:08

Jason, I'll tell you about his company, all the things that

18:10

he does, but it's a perfect time to have men

18:12

since he truly is an

18:15

expert in the nil space

18:18

as well as the college coaching kind

18:20

of space.

18:21

He's a former student athlete.

18:22

And he's the

18:25

founder of Ady University.

18:27

He's a professor of strategy

18:30

as well and sports law at

18:32

Rutgers University, and he's also the director of

18:35

the Jewish Coaches Association.

18:38

Let's welcome in. He's Jason Belzer.

18:40

Fox Sports Radio has the best sports

18:42

talk lineup in the nation. Catch all

18:44

of our shows at foxsports Radio dot

18:46

com and within the iHeartRadio

18:49

app. Search FSR to listen

18:51

live.

18:55

Jason, your let's start

18:57

with your background in hoops for

18:59

the last ten years you've done.

19:01

What So?

19:04

I have been a attorney

19:06

in college sports for almost

19:08

seventeen years now, and I

19:11

represent a whole bunch of college basketball

19:13

coaches, both on the men's

19:15

and women's side. Helped start the College

19:18

Insider Tournament and then build

19:20

a media company called Athletic

19:22

Director d one Ticker, which

19:26

helped me build relationships with

19:28

administrators and coaches and all

19:31

the important people in college athletics.

19:34

You went to law school ware Rutgers

19:36

played football. Ruers went to law school or Rutgers.

19:39

What was Rutgers football like? When you played there?

19:43

We were the worst team in the country.

19:45

We were literally at

19:47

the time, I believe there was one hundred and twenty FBS

19:49

schools and we were one twenty.

19:52

My recruiting tip to Rutgers.

19:53

When I was in high school, we lost to West Virginia

19:56

eighty to seven, Which

19:58

is did you go there? Because

20:01

it was really the only chance I had to play

20:04

Division I football. Plus it

20:06

was a school that was forty minutes down the road from

20:08

where I grew up, So

20:11

or at least FBS football now,

20:13

we got really good, really fast, And

20:16

I wasn't really contributing much to that.

20:19

But it was, you know,

20:22

it was a great opportunity to engage and

20:24

be part of a you know, a big time

20:26

football program, even

20:29

though we weren't very good at least initially.

20:32

So you're going to law school, was

20:34

it always your intention to go into some

20:37

sort of sports law, some from a sports focus.

20:40

Yeah.

20:40

I mean I knew when I was an undergrad that I wanted

20:42

to be an agent, and I actually wanted

20:44

to be an agent representing student athletes,

20:47

but you couldn't.

20:48

Do that back then.

20:48

So I said, I'm going to do the next best thing, and

20:51

I'm going to be an agent that represents college

20:53

coaches. And I literally

20:55

just started code calling and emailing

20:57

people.

20:58

You know.

20:58

I was reaching out to Rick

21:00

Patino and you

21:03

know, lud Olson and anybody

21:05

else that was coaching at the time, trying to get them

21:07

to let me represent them.

21:08

I was a twenty one year old kid, and

21:11

eventually I caught on.

21:13

I got some people to join, and you

21:16

know, that's where I got involved very

21:18

early on.

21:19

In the Jewish Coaches Association.

21:22

And started working with some young

21:24

Jewish coaches like Josh Passner, who

21:27

literally just became head coach at

21:30

Memphis at the time, and

21:32

you know, the rest is history on that end. But

21:36

even throughout that time, I've always

21:38

been a tremendous advocate for

21:41

student athletes and NIL rights.

21:44

I was I am like a walking

21:46

oxymoron. I'm the guy that is

21:48

helping coaches make millions of dollars and

21:50

then at the same time realizing that some of this

21:53

money should be shared with the student athletes,

21:55

which is why as NIL started

21:58

to become more of a reality, I

22:00

knew that I was maybe the best positioned

22:02

person on the entire planet to

22:04

help the industry through what was going to

22:06

be a very tumultuous time

22:09

that we are in. And everything that I predicted

22:12

has happened, and everything that I

22:14

believe will happen is

22:16

unfolding here, and we are

22:18

seeing this before our eyes. We're

22:21

going to be at revenue share in some capacity within

22:23

the next twelve to eighteen months,

22:26

no question.

22:26

Do you think what

22:29

about the schools where there isn't

22:31

the revenue.

22:33

I don't think it matters.

22:34

I think you're going to have a subset about

22:37

forty schools that are

22:39

going to make a decision that that is the route

22:41

that they're going to want to go. That decision

22:43

will be predicated on a

22:45

few factors. Number One, Either

22:48

they will make the decision themselves, the

22:50

decision will be made for them through the court

22:53

system through one of these employment or

22:55

NLRB cases, or

22:57

the decision will be partially predicated

22:59

on what Congress passes.

23:01

I have no.

23:07

I am not going to rely on Congress to

23:09

do anything. They can't even

23:12

get a budget pass, much less save college

23:15

athletics. And so there's

23:18

no question that these conversations

23:20

already happening. I can tell you

23:22

that they're happening because I'm involved in some of them.

23:24

About what does this new model look like? We

23:27

as an organization, my company

23:29

Student Athlete NIL now works with more

23:31

than forty different institutions. We

23:34

are the largest mover of money

23:36

in NIL as it relates

23:38

to rosters than anybody else. We have over

23:41

a thousand student athletes under contract.

23:44

And so this the groundwork

23:46

is there, and we are moving

23:50

violently towards a new

23:52

era in whatever

23:54

looks like the semi professionalization of

23:56

college sports, even though it's pretty much been

23:58

semi pro two.

24:00

Or three years. We'll just have some structure

24:02

around it.

24:04

Okay, So in your mind, what

24:07

does it look like in.

24:09

The ultimate and easiest structure

24:13

it would be to have these institutions

24:16

that choose to want to participate in this

24:19

to agree upon a

24:21

revenue share. We would start with football,

24:24

potentially basketball, but football is a much

24:26

bigger piece where there is some

24:28

sort of guaranteed minimum compensation

24:31

for every athlete on the roster. I

24:33

suspect that, based on what we

24:35

are seeing in the SEC Conference that

24:38

that number will be an estimated

24:40

eight to ten million dollars for

24:42

football, meaning that you're looking at

24:45

about one hundred thousand dollars for each

24:47

student athlete. That

24:50

football and maybe basketball

24:52

is split off into a professional

24:55

organization that is licensed

24:57

underneath the existing athletic departm,

25:00

so it could be Michigan Football

25:03

LLC or whatever you want to call it. When

25:06

that happens, the student athletes

25:08

are likely to be deemed employees unless

25:10

there's some sort of safe harbor position that

25:13

is provided by you know, maybe Senator

25:15

Cruz or whoever else if the legislation gets

25:17

through. But by splitting

25:20

it off, what it does is that

25:22

it creates a scenario where Title nine

25:24

no longer applies because

25:26

if my athletes are employees, it

25:29

doesn't matter. And what ends up happening then,

25:31

is that I can choose to keep

25:33

my women's teams. I can likely choose

25:36

to gut them to save money if I need

25:38

to, which will happen to some capacity. But

25:41

I don't have to play this nonsense Title nine

25:43

game. If these athletes are actually

25:46

generating revenue, and

25:48

then the big question becomes, what happens

25:50

to all of the other sports, what happens to women's

25:52

sports, what happens to Olympic sports. The

25:55

reason why SEC

25:57

schools and we work with the number of them,

25:59

and we're paying a number of their payrolls

26:03

are trying to drive eight, nine, ten

26:05

million dollars a year into their collectives

26:07

is because they know this is happening. It's

26:10

going to be here in the next twelve to twenty

26:12

four months, and so they are literally

26:15

trying to wean themselves off

26:17

of that money today. They are

26:19

saying, if we're going to have to operate

26:21

in a revenue share world

26:24

in two years or one year, why

26:27

are we not trying to figure out how to operate

26:29

with ten million dollars less in our budgets

26:31

today? And let's just allocate those

26:33

dollars to the student athletes

26:36

right now. The problem

26:38

is that there are schools within the

26:40

SEC less so than

26:43

SEC, and more so in the Big Ten that

26:45

don't have that type of money. And

26:48

so while the revenues are similar

26:51

for both conferences, I

26:53

can tell you that Ruckers and Purdue

26:55

and Northwestern and Maryland,

26:58

they don't have the same capacity as Ohio

27:01

State and Michigan. Everybody knows that they're not paying

27:03

the same numbers for nil and

27:05

that's not too different from what's happening in the SEC.

27:07

I mean Mississippi State, you

27:09

know, South Carolina. Are they as competitive

27:12

with LSU and Alabama?

27:13

They're not.

27:15

So Okay.

27:17

The picture you're paying, though, means,

27:20

as you said, and this is a very realistic

27:22

picture, is whenever

27:25

you pump something up like football,

27:27

something's going to fall short, like women's sports.

27:31

How does that work? I mean, I understand you're talking

27:33

about legally splitting them off, but the reality

27:36

is that so much of this has been created

27:38

so that there's equal opportunity, and I

27:41

just wonder how that plays out in

27:44

Congress and in the courts.

27:46

So how I will give you the

27:48

solution, but I have some questions

27:51

for you. First, Doug, Yeah, how can

27:53

Congress force any

27:56

entity to do something? Where's the

27:58

money going to come from. It's going to be

28:00

too late by that point.

28:01

Right.

28:02

Well, here, here's where where does the money

28:04

come from? Is this?

28:06

As you know and I know, states

28:09

give far less to their

28:12

land grant universities for sports, if anything,

28:14

then they ever have previously. But

28:16

that doesn't stop them from giving money

28:19

and giving benefits as well

28:21

to other areas of the school. So

28:24

that's the that's the threat. Right, If you

28:26

don't do it our way, then

28:28

you get no funding.

28:30

So the University of Arizona that is

28:32

facing a massive budget crisis

28:35

is now a sudden going to have to come up with

28:37

the next their five million dollars ten million

28:39

dollars to continue to fund their

28:41

women's programs because Congres said,

28:44

so that's going to be a disaster.

28:46

I will tell you what will happen. You may

28:48

very well be right, Doug, Like, let's play

28:51

that out one hundred percent certainty it happens, what

28:54

will then happen and

28:56

this is the likely outcome for all of this is

28:58

that you will have a private equity firm come in,

29:01

and a private equity firm will come and say

29:03

I will give you I

29:06

will Arizona, whoever, I will

29:08

give you one hundred million. I will give you two hundred

29:10

million dollars, five hundred

29:12

million dollars.

29:13

What is Ohio State football worth? What is

29:15

Texas football worth? Billions?

29:18

Right? I will give you X

29:20

number of dollars as an annuity.

29:25

For whatever percentage twenty

29:27

five thirty percent of your future

29:29

revenue. You take that two

29:32

three hundred million dollars and

29:34

then that money and its interest, you

29:36

know you will make you ten percent on that will

29:39

pay for your women's programs moving forward,

29:42

and we're good. Right, So the

29:44

school will be forced to sell off and

29:47

Doug take the University of Arizona as

29:49

an example, because it's low hanging fruit here. You

29:52

don't think that the president and the

29:54

board of trustees of that university,

29:57

facing an existential crisis wouldn't

29:59

take five hundred million

30:02

dollars right now to sell off fifty

30:04

percent of their athletics program

30:07

to save the university.

30:09

Of course they would.

30:10

I mean, what is the endowment of Arizona

30:12

a billion, billion and a half. You're

30:14

gonna get fifty percent of your endowment

30:17

for a portion of your athletics team.

30:20

They're gonna sell it tomorrow. Rutgers

30:23

operates at a twenty five million dollar loss

30:26

every year.

30:27

If they can go raise five hundred million dollars,

30:30

then the university's endowment is a billion dollars.

30:32

They will sell that tomorrow and it solves

30:34

all their problems. And as

30:37

an alum, you know, if Oklahoma

30:39

State puts out a shingle and says, hey, we're gonna go

30:41

do this, You're gonna go put your money in

30:44

Doug.

30:44

Right, so am I? Everybody will? Everyone

30:46

wants to be an owner.

30:47

You know what the ironic thing is, that's

30:49

essentially what we're doing with the collectives anyway. Right,

30:52

you're just not actually getting an ownership stake unless

30:55

you invest into my company.

30:56

But that's getting You're getting an

30:58

ownership stake of a player, but

31:01

you're not getting any return on it.

31:03

Right, That's the only turn.

31:04

On what you're seeing.

31:05

Sure, what about what

31:07

happens with the donation game? Does

31:09

that totally go away?

31:11

Well, it's all going to go in house regardless.

31:13

I mean it's already moved in house

31:15

in some capacities.

31:17

We have many mechanisms that.

31:18

We work with universities to be able

31:20

to manage cash flow. I

31:23

mean we are in the transfer portal, we're

31:25

in day two and

31:27

by our estimations this there

31:30

will be about four hundred million

31:32

dollars that will change

31:34

hands over the next forty

31:38

five to sixty days.

31:39

In terms of contracts.

31:41

We will control the largest proportion of

31:43

that because of the number of universities that we represent.

31:47

But this will also be the biggest

31:49

nil exchange ever

31:52

because the reality is that we probably go to rev

31:54

share and a lot of that will be absorbed

31:56

in house, right, and then donors just

31:58

you know, Doug, You'll keep going Oklahoma State, and then

32:00

Oklahoma State will sign its revshare contract

32:03

with the football and basketball teams, and

32:05

the donor money will just flow into this university

32:07

and be one bucket of the revenue share. There

32:11

is so much more opportunity for real nil

32:13

though that schools are taking are not taking

32:15

advantage of the majority of them are not because

32:18

they have poor infrastructure set at the place to

32:20

drive this type of revenue.

32:22

When you say real nil, what do you mean?

32:24

I mean real endorsement marketing

32:27

potential? I mean, you know, I'll

32:29

give an example, Doug. I know you may not want to hear

32:31

it, but we work with the University of Oklahoma, and

32:33

I would say that Crimson and Cream is

32:35

kicking the butt of whatever Oklahoma

32:38

State has going on, because we are

32:40

writing, we are running a high,

32:43

you know, functioning, professionalized operation

32:46

where we are generating.

32:47

We have generated in excess of.

32:50

Two and a half million dollars

32:52

in real nil, non

32:55

donor money for ou student

32:57

athletes over the last thirteen

33:00

months that we've been operating at Oklahoma.

33:03

What has Oklahoma State been able

33:05

to generate for their athletes in that same

33:07

time, not touching donor money,

33:10

not a whole lot, right, real nil

33:12

right endorsements, trading cards,

33:17

marketing appearances, television commercials,

33:19

membership programs, all

33:22

of those different things. There is

33:24

more money in nil than

33:26

there is in multimedia rights because

33:29

you're not beholden to just one

33:32

partner. You don't have to just be an exclusive

33:34

partner of Hal Smith. You

33:36

can go work with McDonald's and everybody

33:39

else. That's just part of it, right,

33:41

and so there's real nil value. That's

33:43

what our focus is is an organization. Sure,

33:45

we're running money from donors, but

33:47

at the end of the day, we want to build a

33:50

billion dollar industry that

33:52

is based on real nil transactions

33:54

and the power of the student athlete is an influencer.

33:57

Who's the what school or are

34:00

the most advanced in the real ail.

34:03

There are a handful. Again, I would say

34:05

Oklahoma LSU

34:08

has done a fantastic job. Not on the

34:10

collective side, They've done an awful

34:12

job on their collective. They've done a great

34:15

job in helping provide marketing opportunities

34:17

for their student athletes. USC

34:20

has done an okay job, again not on the collective

34:22

side.

34:22

On real nil.

34:24

Tennessee has done a pretty good job because

34:26

of Spire. The

34:28

difference is that we are a sports marketing

34:30

company, right. We employ full time salespeople,

34:33

we employ full time business developers.

34:36

The vast majority of schools are just operating

34:38

collectives, or they have collectives

34:41

that are being operated by part time donors

34:43

and alumni, and then internally

34:46

they have people that aren't real revenue generators.

34:49

That's also the problem. Doug College

34:51

athletics has been based on a ecosystem

34:54

of money that comes from donors. Right,

34:57

That's why it doesn't stay.

35:00

He's Texas A and m to go fire Jimbo

35:02

Fisher and have to go you know, loan.

35:04

There another seventy five million dollars in money

35:06

through their nonprofit status

35:08

athletics department to go pay it off from donors.

35:11

These people are not thinking about what the bottom

35:13

line is, how do we drive real,

35:16

real revenue to our student

35:18

athletes? And so there

35:20

has been a very very small amount of money

35:23

that has come through. Nebraska probably has

35:25

done a good job because Blake Lawrence

35:27

has started Open Doors is from Nebraska

35:29

and he's dedicated a lot of his time to doing

35:32

that. Oregon because of Division

35:34

Street and what Phil Knight has been able to do there.

35:37

But outside that, most institutions

35:39

are not doing very much at all when it comes

35:41

to monetizing the real value

35:43

of what a student athlete is, mostly

35:45

because their hands off.

35:46

They don't want to deal with it.

35:47

And that's why ads rather

35:49

retire than go figure out this nil thing.

35:54

That's it for Part one, Okay,

35:56

part two. What are the downsides?

36:00

Well, the downsides what about women's athletics

36:03

and will college

36:05

athletes actually sit out if they can't

36:07

get the deal they want when it's collectively

36:09

bargained for?

36:11

And we'll get to that in the next episode. I'm Doug Gottlieb.

36:13

This is all ball