0:00

On Monday, after a very short

0:02

closure, the Kirtland Temple reopened its

0:04

doors for free public tours for

0:06

the first time since it was

0:08

purchased by the Church of Jesus

0:10

Christ of Latter-day Saints earlier this

0:13

month. The Kirtland Temple

0:15

is significant for many reasons, but

0:17

as we celebrate Holy Week this

0:19

week it is especially significant as

0:22

we remember that these words from

0:24

the Living Christ document are originally

0:26

from section 110 of the Doctrine

0:28

and Covenants, which is an account

0:30

of a vision received by Joseph Smith

0:32

and Oliver Cowdery in the Temple at

0:35

Kirtland, Ohio on April 3, Joseph

0:40

recorded, His eyes were as

0:42

a flame of fire, the hair of his

0:44

head was white like the pure snow, his

0:47

countenance shone above the brightness of the

0:49

sun, and his voice was as the

0:51

sound of the rushing of great waters.

0:54

Then the voice of Jehovah saying, I

0:57

am the first and the last, I am

0:59

he who liveth, I am he

1:01

who was slain, I am your advocate with

1:03

the Father. The Kirtland

1:05

Temple stands as a witness of the

1:08

reality of the Living Christ, and that

1:10

is one of the many reasons its

1:12

acquisition is so significant. Elder

1:15

Kyle S. McKay is an attorney

1:17

by trade, having practiced law in

1:20

Oregon and Utah. He was

1:22

sustained as a General Authority Seventy of the

1:24

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on

1:26

March 31, 2018. He

1:29

is currently the Church Historian and

1:31

Recorder and Executive Director of the

1:34

Church History Department. He also

1:36

serves on the Scriptures Committee. He

1:38

and his wife Jennifer are the parents

1:40

of nine children. This

1:47

is All In, an LDS living podcast where

1:49

we ask the question, what does it really

1:51

mean to be All In, the gospel of

1:54

Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and

1:56

I am honored to have Elder Kyle S.

1:58

McKay on the line with me today.

2:00

Elder McKay, welcome. Thank

2:02

you. Thanks for having me. Well,

2:05

I'm going to start out Elder McKay. I

2:07

wanted to give people a chance to get

2:10

to know you a little bit. And I

2:12

talked to a couple of people who know

2:14

you decently well before this interview. And I

2:16

found it interesting that every one of them

2:18

said, well, he's a cowboy. And so I

2:21

wanted to ask you, you're a cowboy at

2:23

heart, you enjoy horseback riding with your sons.

2:25

Tell me a little bit about the role

2:27

that that has played in your life and

2:29

how it shaped who you are as a

2:32

person. It's

2:34

a family activity. I want to

2:36

say it's part of my identity. It certainly doesn't

2:39

make its way to the top and

2:41

supplant any of the identities that

2:43

President Nelson has taught us about.

2:46

But it has, it has, it's not my

2:48

religion, but it has

2:50

provided experiences that have augmented

2:53

my religion. I grew

2:55

up on horseback with my

2:57

dad taking me in the mountains. And

3:00

I should clarify that mountains and horses

3:03

are not the same without the other. We

3:05

love to be in the mountains, but I'd much rather be

3:07

in the mountains on horseback and on foot. And

3:10

I love to be on horses, but I'd much rather be on

3:13

a horse in the mountains

3:15

than in an arena. So we've made it

3:17

a family experience. And it has each of

3:19

our children has owned a horse and trained

3:21

it and brought it up. And there

3:24

are people who have written books about

3:27

managing people based on

3:30

training horses. The

3:32

1% improvement that you heard even in a conference

3:34

talk, I think it was Elder Dunn who gave

3:37

it. Chris Cox is a

3:39

famous horse trainer uses that

3:41

principle. And that's where I first heard it. So

3:43

it's been, it's been a great

3:45

way to learn life lessons. My

3:48

dad, when he took us in the mountains, there

3:51

would be lesson after lesson after lesson. He's

3:53

very good at pulling

3:55

out a two sentence sermon

3:57

at and giving it based on the

4:00

formation of a rock or the angle of

4:02

a tree or erosion or the sky or

4:04

the clouds. And, and, uh,

4:06

I learned a lot from him and, uh,

4:09

I'm going one on one with God in

4:12

the mountains as well. So yes, it's a,

4:14

it's a treasured activity. I know other families

4:16

and other people have different activities that are

4:18

just as meaningful and this

4:21

happens to be ours. I

4:23

love that. Well, my understanding is that

4:25

when you were young, your

4:28

family lived in Bountiful, Utah.

4:30

And at the end of a summer, you

4:32

had spent in the mountains

4:34

or in a rural area. I'm not

4:37

totally sure. You decided that

4:39

you didn't really want to go

4:41

back to Bountiful. And somehow there

4:44

was an arrangement made with Elder Marlin

4:46

K. Jensen, who also was as a

4:48

former church historian. You two have that

4:50

in common now. I

4:53

was so curious when I read this story about

4:56

how that came to be, what it was like

4:58

for you, I think a lot of Elder Jensen.

5:00

So how did that come to be? And what

5:02

did you learn in that

5:04

time living with the Jetsons from

5:06

Elder Marlin K. Jensen? Thank

5:10

you. It's a, it's a treasured

5:12

experience in my life that

5:14

gets bigger. And

5:17

the older I get, I don't know

5:19

why Marlin and Kathy invited

5:21

me into their home, but here's, here's how it

5:24

happened and came to be. My

5:26

dad was born and raised in Huntsville, Utah,

5:29

and my ancestors settled

5:31

that valley. My great-grandmother, William Ina,

5:34

was the first white woman to settle in

5:37

that valley. And I've, my heart

5:39

has always been in Huntsville, Utah,

5:41

although my parents raised their

5:44

children in Bountiful. We spent weekends

5:46

and summers up there. And at

5:48

the end of the summer of 1974, where

5:50

my mother had rented the valley

5:55

house, which is an old hotel up

5:57

in Huntsville, and it's still a bed

5:59

and breakfast up there now. I

6:01

didn't want to come home. You're right. I just did

6:03

not I'm not coming home. I'm not going back to

6:05

bountiful Well, there wasn't a place for me to

6:07

stay and I think my parents were

6:09

sympathetic. So they they arranged something

6:12

I started school in bountiful, but then

6:14

they spoke with Marlin and I've been

6:16

working on their farm since

6:18

I was 11 or 12 years old and Marlin

6:21

and Kathy moved into their new home

6:24

in November of 74 and six

6:27

weeks later I moved in with them and I'll

6:32

always be Grateful

6:35

and even a little emotional as I

6:37

consider what they went through Deciding

6:40

to invite me they had

6:42

four young children. She just had a baby they

6:46

had a student living with them and Of

6:50

course the answer was no when my parents floated

6:52

the idea, but they made it a matter of

6:55

fasting and prayer and then

6:57

called at my parents and said send him up and

7:00

so I lived with them for a Good

7:05

chunk of my ninth grade year graduated from

7:07

junior high At Valley

7:09

junior high there in Huntsville and was registered

7:11

to go to the high school of Weber But

7:14

then came back down to bountiful and live with

7:17

my family Marlin Jensen is Outside

7:20

my parents has had a greater influence

7:22

on me than I think anyone Any

7:25

adult in my life that

7:28

he's just I don't know a person

7:30

like him He is so

7:33

genuine and and what you see outside

7:35

of his home or behind

7:37

the pulpit or in Interactions with

7:39

others is it is precisely the

7:41

way he is in his home. I've just never

7:43

seen that a difference

7:45

that sometimes We

7:48

struggle to be the same in and out, but it

7:50

was a profound experience for me I melt cows

7:53

with them and I got to sleep

7:55

in until 5

7:57

15 on school on school days,

8:01

Marlon milked and then on weekends I would

8:03

milk once with his brother and once with

8:05

him. He was a bishop at the time, very busy, but

8:08

I'll forever be grateful to them. I

8:13

love that the two of you now have

8:16

this experience of being called

8:18

as church historians and I

8:21

find it interesting, Elder McKay, that

8:23

you are an attorney, that you

8:25

were called to this historian calling.

8:28

Were you surprised by that call? Jenny

8:30

Reeder actually told me that there have

8:33

been a number of attorneys in that

8:35

calling, so this is not the first

8:37

time that's happened, but were you surprised by

8:39

that call and did you have a

8:41

previous interest in history? So

8:44

you're right about the string of attorneys. There

8:46

was a time, about a 16 year

8:49

period, when we did not have a

8:51

formal church historian. In 2005,

8:53

Elder Jensen, Marlon Jensen was sustained

8:57

as the

8:59

new church historian and the department,

9:01

if you will, was kind of

9:03

reconstituted. President

9:06

Hinckley did that and Elder

9:08

Jensen was an attorney and following him,

9:10

Steve Snow and the grand Curtis and

9:13

then I am the, was that

9:15

fourth? Now I'm the fourth attorney and I

9:18

don't think that's by design. I really do think

9:20

it's by coincidence. I

9:22

was not surprised by the call to

9:25

be church historian,

9:27

but I was initially surprised

9:30

by the assignment to be in the

9:32

church history department. So after

9:35

my first year as a general authority where

9:37

there's kind of a rotation, an

9:40

orientation, if you will, in

9:43

the assignment meeting, I was

9:46

assigned to be the assistant executive

9:49

director in the church history department.

9:52

And the way our department works, there's two general

9:55

authorities. One is the church historian

9:57

and the executive director and

9:59

the other is the assistant executive director, I

10:01

was assigned to be the

10:03

assistant executive director with the Graham Curtis as

10:06

the historian and executive director. In

10:10

that instant when I discovered and

10:12

saw my picture up on the screen

10:14

as the assistant executive director, I had

10:18

the thought that you could be in that department

10:21

or in that role for your entire time

10:23

as a general authority. So

10:26

that moment was more of a

10:28

surprise than actually becoming

10:30

the church historian after three years. It seemed

10:32

like a natural thing to do. So

10:35

the actual call itself was

10:37

not a huge surprise. It made sense because

10:40

of the three years I'd had

10:43

in the church history department, but

10:45

the initial assignment to the department did take me

10:47

off guard a little bit. I've

10:50

never had a focus

10:54

or a passion for history. I've been

10:56

curious about it, but

10:58

this calling has certainly piqued

11:00

my interest and I'm

11:03

scrambling. And in fact, one of

11:05

the things I try to do is

11:08

discipline myself so that I don't panic at

11:10

what I don't know. Fortunately,

11:13

I'm surrounded with brilliant people who

11:15

have lots of answers and I lean on them a

11:17

lot. As

11:20

a follow up to that, Elder McKay,

11:22

I'm curious, you said you try to

11:25

discipline yourself and not panic about what you

11:27

don't know. What does that look like? So

11:31

there's so much about church history. We

11:34

have such a rich history, such an

11:36

inspiring history. And I

11:39

want to know everything about everything. And

11:43

I just don't. But depending

11:45

on which office I'm sitting in, in the

11:48

moment, I can ask the person in that

11:50

office any question.

11:52

And I usually get answers. And I've

11:54

also begun to hold

11:56

what we call the school of

11:58

the elders, patterned after. what Joseph

12:01

established in Kirtland and in

12:03

independence. We

12:06

invite scholars in, mostly from our department,

12:08

but also from outside to teach us

12:10

about topics and segments of

12:12

church history and personalities. And

12:15

that's been very, very helpful. But

12:19

on any given day, I will wish that

12:22

I knew more about any given

12:24

subject. I love reading, particularly

12:27

the biographies of the

12:30

great people of the Restoration. Right now, I'm

12:32

reading a biography of George

12:34

Q. Cannon, but I'd

12:37

love to know them all much better. I

12:41

love the idea of bringing in

12:44

people that do know and seeking

12:46

to learn from them. I loved

12:49

in an interview that you did recently,

12:51

you talked about the privilege that it

12:53

is to work alongside church

12:56

historians who have devoted their

12:58

careers to this work. I wondered

13:00

what have you learned from

13:02

them and their dedication to kind

13:05

of uncovering the church's

13:07

history and helping all of

13:09

us better understand our heritage.

13:13

I've learned a few things and it's

13:15

been impressive. Most of them are PhDs.

13:18

They've just studied this for a long

13:20

time. And many of

13:23

them have an emphasis on

13:25

church history or some aspect of church history

13:28

for their doctoral dissertation. And

13:31

it's been wonderful to learn content

13:33

and subject matter from them. But

13:36

perhaps the thing that has been most meaningful

13:38

for me is that

13:40

they are devoted scholars. They

13:42

really are true to their

13:45

profession. And if it's not

13:47

accurate, if we can't document it, then

13:50

we won't say it or we'll say it in

13:52

a qualified manner saying, here's how we think it

13:54

is, but we can't say

13:56

for sure. So they're very cautious and very

13:58

true to their profession. but

14:01

they are also deeply

14:03

rooted in and true to their faith. And

14:06

that is a very impressive combination

14:09

to have somebody who can talk

14:11

about any sensitive topic of church

14:13

history and do so

14:16

in a manner that's candid,

14:18

but faith promoting and at the end of

14:21

the discussion, there's a witness

14:23

in the room. That's a

14:25

beautiful experience and they've given that to me

14:27

and I thank them for it. I

14:30

should also mention that in

14:32

addition to everything that we are

14:34

studying and going back to uncover

14:36

our history and try to re-piece

14:38

it because some of it is

14:40

fragmented, the most

14:42

important thing we do, I believe

14:44

in our department is to continue

14:46

to obey the commandment, there

14:48

shall be a record kept among you.

14:52

That was given on the first day that the

14:54

church was organized. And

14:57

the very first line of the first

14:59

revelation on the day the

15:01

church was organized was, behold, there shall be

15:03

a record kept among you. At that time,

15:05

there was no church history. There

15:08

wasn't anything to go research and write about

15:10

and preserve. If

15:12

there was, it was limited. But

15:15

the commandment is, look, I'm gonna do some things

15:17

here with you, keep track of

15:19

it, write it down. We're about to

15:21

make history. And so make sure

15:23

you preserve it. And that

15:26

mandate continues today. And

15:29

this office is to keep a regular

15:31

history of the church. And so what

15:33

is happening today is in its own

15:36

right as

15:38

historic as anything that has happened

15:41

since 1820 or 1830. I

15:45

love that. It reminds me of

15:48

President Nelson's expect miracles and also

15:50

the idea of the ongoing restoration.

15:52

And so that makes complete sense to

15:55

me. Elder McKay, I

15:57

know that there are some who find.

16:00

aspects of church history troublesome.

16:02

It's interesting, I mentioned Jenny Reeder

16:04

earlier and she has been a

16:06

dear friend of mine for several

16:08

years now. And there have been

16:10

a few times where people have

16:12

come to me with some concerns

16:14

and I'll say, Jenny, I need

16:16

your help in better understanding this.

16:19

I'm sure you've learned a ton

16:21

about church history in this capacity.

16:23

And I wonder how you approach

16:25

the tougher to understand parts of church

16:27

history and what might be your advice

16:30

and approaching those tougher

16:33

aspects. Thank you

16:35

for the question. Let me start

16:38

the response by saying there are

16:40

many things about my life and

16:43

probably I'm certain your life that

16:46

people would find troubling if

16:48

they're using your life or

16:50

my life as a gauge for the truthfulness of

16:52

this church. That's the

16:54

nature of humanity. We are all

16:56

human and we make errors. There's

16:59

a beautiful thing that I learned from one

17:01

of our scholars here, Keith

17:03

Erickson. We did a podcast a while

17:05

back and in response

17:08

to a question similar to

17:10

this, he made the

17:12

observation that in the

17:14

New Testament, there are lots

17:16

of things going on that

17:18

just aren't right. They're off

17:21

and he's talking about things

17:23

among the apostles, among

17:25

the church leaders of the day. The

17:27

apostles don't get along. Some

17:29

of them are vying for position or

17:31

recognition. One of them cuts off

17:33

ears, I guess, or at least he did once

17:37

and he denied Christ and

17:39

all sorts of things going

17:41

on that just aren't right.

17:44

But we don't get sidetracked by that

17:47

because right there in the center

17:50

of the New Testament is Jesus

17:52

Christ. And everything

17:54

that's happening on the

17:56

periphery is just that, peripheral.

18:00

Jesus Christ is the center and we

18:02

look to him and we see him

18:05

in the New Testament, especially the Gospels, and

18:08

what happens on the periphery just doesn't

18:10

matter, even though it's off. Well

18:13

in church history, and even in contemporary

18:16

times, there

18:19

can be a tendency to take Christ

18:21

out of the center and

18:23

make somebody else the center of

18:25

our focus. And when

18:28

you do that, then mistakes and

18:30

things that are off are going

18:32

to take on undue significance. So

18:35

the key is, keep

18:37

Christ in the center.

18:40

And everything that goes on

18:42

outside of him or around

18:45

him, including the actions and

18:47

the experiences of his chosen

18:49

leaders and in his church,

18:52

won't make a difference.

18:54

It won't knock you off course because

18:57

Jesus Christ is in the center and

19:00

you're focused on him. I

19:03

found that to be true. And I think in his

19:05

own way, the Lord said that when

19:07

he was talking to Oliver in the

19:10

sixth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, he's

19:12

talking to Oliver about Joseph. So

19:14

he says to Oliver Calgary, stand

19:17

by my servant Joseph

19:19

faithfully. In all things, in

19:22

all difficult circumstances, I'm paraphrasing here,

19:24

that he may be for the

19:26

word's sake. He

19:29

said admonish him in his faults and also

19:31

receive admonition of him. So

19:34

to me, that's the Lord and Oliver both

19:37

acknowledging, hey, the guy

19:39

we're working with isn't perfect. He's

19:41

going to make mistakes. But it's

19:44

important that you stand by him, Oliver, in

19:47

whatsoever difficult circumstances he may be

19:49

for the word's sake. He

19:52

will be in difficult circumstances for the word's

19:54

sake, but you stand by him for

19:57

the word's sake. And

19:59

if we do that, I think we'll be alright.

20:01

I've made the comment before it goes without

20:03

saying that Joseph Smith Had

20:06

was human and made mistakes. Well

20:09

if it goes without saying why do we keep saying

20:11

it? We

20:14

somehow feel compelled to say it or acknowledge

20:16

it and I guess that's alright, but This

20:19

is God's Church and no unhallowed

20:22

hand and no well-meaning hallowed

20:24

hand is going to knock it off

20:26

course Think that's

20:28

fantastic advice and I love your

20:31

perspective on that Elder

20:33

McKay is there any aspect of or

20:35

account in church history that is

20:38

maybe not as well known that

20:40

you have learned and that has

20:42

Had particular significance to you and

20:44

strengthening you in your life There

20:48

are several and maybe they were

20:50

just not well known to me

20:52

maybe others knew them but I I

20:54

have absolutely

20:58

fallen in love with Jane Elizabeth

21:00

Manning and And have

21:02

such respect for her. I Mentioned

21:06

her in a talk that I gave at BYU, Idaho But

21:10

here's a woman a black woman who

21:12

joins the church with a good number of

21:15

her family in Connecticut and is journeying

21:17

to Nauvoo and

21:20

is denied passage because of her color

21:22

and and so

21:25

she walks on what

21:27

eventually became bloodied feet in Bitter

21:31

cold weather makes it to Nauvoo Tells

21:34

this Joseph and Emma welcome her into their

21:36

home You're among friends

21:38

now Joseph marvels at her

21:40

faith saying to a friend What

21:43

do you think of that? Isn't that faith? and

21:46

Then she she lives with the Saints in

21:49

Nauvoo. She mourns the death of Joseph and

21:51

Hiram She comes to the Salt Lake Valley

21:53

early on in 46

21:55

or 47 is a beloved Saint

21:59

and mini minister here, but because

22:01

of her color and the restrictions in place

22:03

at the time was denied

22:07

the highest blessings of the temple. And

22:12

she loved the temple. She contributed to

22:14

the construction of the Salt Lake

22:16

Temple. And in

22:19

18… I forget

22:21

the exact year. I

22:25

think it was 1884. She

22:28

writes a letter to the president of the church

22:30

who at the time was John Taylor, and these

22:32

words just ring with me and stay with me.

22:35

And she says, God promised

22:38

Abraham that in his seed all

22:40

the nations of the earth should be

22:42

blessed. And as this

22:45

is the fullness of all dispensations,

22:49

is there no blessing for me? Those

22:52

words just tear at my heart. The

22:57

answer, of course, then and now

22:59

is yes, Jade. There is

23:01

a blessing for you. The highest

23:03

blessing is reserved for you.

23:05

There is no blessing that will be

23:07

denied you, but at the time, the

23:10

ordinances of the temple were not available

23:12

to her. And

23:14

yet she died with a firm

23:16

testimony in her heart and on

23:18

her lips, and I aspire to

23:20

her faith and love her story.

23:23

I also love a principle

23:26

that is learned in church

23:28

history, and it's repeated. And

23:30

it's repeated in your life and mine, and

23:33

it's something that is forefront

23:35

on my mind right now because of

23:37

the recent acquisition. But

23:40

it is this principle that God will speak

23:42

to you as you are in his scriptures.

23:45

If you want revelation, get yourself

23:47

into revelations. Many

23:49

of the revelations that we have in

23:52

the Doctrine and Covenants are a result

23:54

of Joseph being in the Bible as

23:57

part of his translation of the Bible. So

24:00

the Joseph Smith translation gives us translation

24:03

and clarity of the Bible, but it also gives

24:05

us several, many, sessions of

24:07

the Doctrine and Covenants where they

24:09

will pause and say, Whoa, what

24:12

meaneth this? Maybe the most noteworthy

24:15

is the 76 section, the

24:17

vision, the three degrees of glory, that

24:19

they pause while they're translating the

24:22

Bible and they

24:24

ask a question

24:26

regarding John chapter 5 verse 29. You

24:29

can see this in Living Color in section

24:31

138 with Joseph F. Smith. He's

24:33

pondering on broad topic, the atonement,

24:35

and then the Spirit just guides

24:38

him into 1 Peter chapter 3

24:40

and then this revelation verse upon

24:42

it. It's a beautiful principle

24:44

that is alive and well and available

24:46

in all of our lives. Thank

24:50

you so much for sharing both of those.

24:52

I love Jane Manning

24:54

James. I think that she

24:56

is remarkable. And so I love

24:58

that that was the first example

25:01

that came to your mind. My

25:03

predecessor, LeGrand Curtis,

25:05

is a direct descendant of Brigham Young. So

25:08

he had a statue of Brigham sitting on

25:10

a pedestal there in the office and I

25:12

inherited his office. And I

25:15

love Brigham and President Nelson. Our

25:17

President, Hinkley, loved Brigham Young, both

25:20

practical prophets. But

25:24

I'm there recently at

25:26

the dedication of some statues of it.

25:29

This is the place monument. There's a

25:31

statue of Jane. And

25:33

I've asked the sculptors

25:36

to make a miniature like,

25:38

I don't know, 18 inches or so.

25:40

And she's going to be in

25:42

my office. That's so cool.

25:45

That's awesome. Let

25:47

me shift now, Elder McKay, to

25:49

this recent acquisition that I feel

25:52

like is so significant. This is

25:54

something that church members have

25:56

waited a long time for. I remember years ago when

25:58

I was in the church. at the Deseret News,

26:01

we would, every conference, it was like, is this

26:03

going to be the one where they get the

26:05

Kirtland Temple? You said that

26:07

it was determined, I think that we

26:09

all expected that when

26:12

the Kirtland Temple was acquired by the

26:14

church, that it would be made

26:16

a functioning temple. And

26:19

you said it was determined that the Kirtland Temple

26:21

will be more effective as a historic site than

26:23

it would be as a temple. Can you tell

26:25

me a little bit more about why that is?

26:30

Yes. First of all, I

26:32

don't make those decisions. I can make recommendations.

26:35

And if I'm asked, that

26:37

would be my recommendation. This

26:40

was never a functioning temple in the

26:42

way we view them now. We

26:45

didn't perform the ordinances in that

26:47

temple that we do in

26:49

all of our current operating

26:52

temples. It's been described

26:54

as a restoration temple. There

26:56

are certain things that belong in the house of

26:59

the Lord. And some of

27:01

those things were

27:03

not found on the earth at the time, so we

27:05

need a temple so that they can get here. So

27:09

that temple was constructed, and

27:11

it's a beautiful outlay.

27:13

It's a humble temple. To

27:17

that temple comes Christ

27:19

himself, followed

27:21

by these three messengers who

27:24

restore keys and

27:27

dispensations and

27:29

things necessary in order to establish the

27:31

kingdom of God on earth. So

27:35

with the significance of the restoration

27:37

in mind, we're going to keep

27:39

this as a historic site. And

27:42

that decision was made by President Nelson in the first

27:44

presidency. And I'm delighted that

27:46

it was made. I honestly don't know how

27:49

it would be configured or whether

27:51

it could be configured into

27:53

an operating temple. It

27:56

was made to be just the way it is, and

27:58

I'm delighted that it will. stay

28:00

that way. We want to keep it

28:02

old. We want to keep it authentic. We want

28:04

to, we want it to be safe, but

28:07

we want that old temple to be with us and

28:09

to remind us of what happened. For

28:13

sure. Elder McKay, you said

28:15

that you didn't have what

28:18

we traditionally consider to be

28:20

pioneer ancestors, but that

28:22

the Kirtland Temple is an important

28:24

part of all of our heritage

28:26

as members of the church. I

28:29

especially appreciated this because I don't

28:31

have what many consider to be

28:33

pioneer ancestors. So why is it

28:35

that this acquisition,

28:37

that the Kirtland Temple in

28:39

particular is so important to our heritage

28:42

as members of the church? It's

28:46

what happened inside the temple that is so

28:48

important and the Lord needed

28:50

a temple to do that or to do

28:52

what He did there. And

28:54

so the keys that were restored there, the

28:56

keys of the gathering of Israel, neither

28:59

you nor I is in

29:02

this church unless

29:04

those keys are restored and the

29:06

missionary work goes forward. And

29:08

so in 1850 and then in 1860 when my

29:12

McKay ancestors were converted

29:14

in the highlands of Scotland, that

29:17

doesn't happen without the turning of

29:19

a key and the opening of the gospel

29:22

or the kingdom of God in that

29:25

nation. And your ancestors, the first to

29:27

come into the church, that doesn't

29:29

happen without those keys. And

29:32

then the binding of generations

29:35

and especially the binding of husband to

29:37

wife within the same

29:39

generation, that doesn't happen either without

29:42

the keys that were restored by

29:44

Elijah. And then

29:46

there's this beautiful dispensation of

29:48

the gospel of Abraham. And

29:52

no keys are mentioned, just

29:54

the dispensation of the gospel

29:56

of Abraham that Elias

29:59

brings. And in

30:01

our church, we sometimes limit

30:03

that word dispensation to

30:06

simply meaning a time period that

30:09

a prophet stands at the head of. Joseph

30:11

Smith stands at the head of

30:13

this dispensation, this time period. But

30:16

the word means more and in this

30:19

context, it doesn't

30:21

have its full meaning without the

30:23

other two definitions. One

30:25

is a special

30:28

permission or privilege,

30:30

which is certainly part of

30:32

the dispensation, the privilege of the gospel

30:35

of Abraham. Special privileges

30:37

were extended to him and anyone who's

30:39

going to be part of God's kingdom,

30:41

if you're Christ, you are Abraham's seed,

30:43

Paul said. And so

30:45

these privileges in the aggregate are

30:49

all that the Father hath. That's

30:51

pretty special. That is a dispensation.

30:54

The other meaning of that word dispensation

30:56

is a method

30:58

or order by which

31:00

God carries forth his purposes

31:02

among his people. And

31:04

certainly that is part of the

31:06

Abrahamic gospel and Abrahamic covenant. So

31:09

that was restored and without it, we don't

31:11

have this church and kingdom or the lofty

31:15

blessings that we talk about in our

31:17

church. Absolutely.

31:21

Well, and I

31:23

love the temple, Elder McKay. I know

31:25

that we

31:27

are just so blessed to have

31:30

temples on the earth today. At

31:32

the time that the Kirtland Temple

31:34

was built, there had been a

31:36

period of time without temples

31:38

on the earth. What they

31:40

knew of the temple was

31:42

they likely had read about

31:44

Solomon's temple. And when the

31:46

Book of Mormon was translated, they learned of Nephi's

31:48

temple. And you talked with

31:51

church news about a comparison between

31:53

what they built in Kirtland and

31:55

Solomon's temple or Nephi's temple. And

31:57

I found that super fascinating. mind

32:00

sharing just a little bit about that? Sure.

32:04

I, I

32:07

am moved by

32:09

what Solomon and his people were

32:11

able to do. And even before

32:13

Solomon, David gathered up contributions to

32:15

create this temple. He was never

32:17

able to build it. Although the

32:19

commandment to build it came prior to

32:21

Solomon. Uh, David gathered

32:24

up the donations and was quite pleased

32:27

with it. He was delighted at this

32:29

freewill offering that his people had made

32:31

in order to build the temple. And

32:33

then that was turned over to Solomon and he

32:35

hired others to help build this

32:38

temple that my goodness, the

32:40

description of it in, in

32:42

first Kings in from about

32:45

chapters five or six through the

32:47

dedication in chapter eight is just

32:50

exquisite. I don't know

32:53

that there's very much of the interior of

32:55

that temple that is not

32:57

overlaid with gold and

32:59

there's fine wood, fur and

33:01

cedar and all sorts of, of ornate

33:05

construction. And it really does

33:07

sound just marvelous. Nephi

33:10

says that he built a temple, uh,

33:14

after the manner of Solomon's temple,

33:16

but it wasn't as nice. I

33:19

mean, he, he admitted that because they

33:21

didn't have quite what Solomon had. I

33:24

find that interesting because in the previous

33:26

verse, Nephi talks about what

33:28

they did have and they had all

33:30

manner of wood. They had all

33:33

manner of ore and gold and

33:35

silver and copper and

33:37

just all sorts of things. And

33:39

certainly that must've been included in their temple.

33:42

And although it did not rise to

33:44

the level of Solomon's temple, it was

33:46

in Nephi's words, exceedingly fine.

33:50

And then there is the Kirtland temple. This

33:54

humble little temple that

33:56

we, we just did not have money

33:58

to build. We

34:01

did not have the resources, but we

34:03

gave what we had, just

34:05

like the people under

34:07

David's rule, where they gave this

34:10

free will offering, we

34:12

gave what we had. We did

34:14

not have as much from which

34:16

to give as David's people

34:18

did, but we gave what

34:20

we had. And in the end, it was

34:23

as David finally noted, simply giving

34:25

back to the Lord what he

34:27

had already given to us. We

34:30

give thee but thine own.

34:33

And it was humble. We

34:37

couldn't afford to build a frame building.

34:41

They had talked about maybe

34:43

a log structure. And

34:45

Joseph recoiled at that and said, we're going to

34:47

do better than that. And so it was

34:50

built of stone in order

34:52

to make it look a

34:55

little finer in appearance. They covered the

34:57

stone, the exterior with

34:59

plaster or stucco and

35:02

into that stucco when they're

35:05

broken China. And

35:07

most of it was not China

35:10

that they donated so that it could

35:12

be broken and included in the stucco

35:15

or the adobe. It

35:17

was already broken. That's

35:19

this is all we've got our

35:21

broken stuff. So let's put it in there and

35:23

it'll, it'll help give a little bit of a

35:26

shine or sheen to the exterior.

35:28

But and then you

35:30

go look at those walls now. And

35:32

there's there is a little just a

35:34

tiny bit of unevenness that you can

35:36

still detect, both interior

35:39

and exterior, but it was what

35:41

they could do. It

35:43

was it might have been a greater sacrifice

35:45

for them. It probably was than it was

35:47

for the people in King Solomon's time. And

35:50

the interesting thing is that the

35:52

Lord appeared in both places. He

35:54

appeared to accept Solomon's temple. He

35:56

appeared to accept the Kirtland temple.

35:58

That is the enough, all

36:01

I wanted was what you have, and

36:03

so thanks for giving it, and I accept

36:05

it, and I will come here, and I'll

36:07

manifest myself to my people here, and

36:10

they'll hear my voice here." And

36:12

then, of course, what was restored there

36:14

is foundational for the Restoration. I

36:20

love the way that you put that,

36:22

that the important thing was that the

36:24

Lord accepted it. I think

36:26

there's great significance in that for all of us. Mr.

36:30

McKay, how were women involved

36:32

in the construction of the Kirtland

36:35

Temple? In

36:37

much the same way they were involved

36:39

in the construction of the Nauvoo Temple.

36:42

This was, of course, the first temple. The

36:44

men were in the quarry, digging

36:47

out and chiseling the stones

36:49

and carrying them to the temple

36:51

and placing them. The sisters,

36:53

under the leadership of Emma, made

36:56

stockings and jackets

36:59

and, I assume, shirts as

37:01

well and clothing to support the

37:03

brethren. The

37:06

comment, the observation was made

37:08

that they were every bit as engaged

37:10

and busy as the men, and then

37:14

once it was finished, at least they had the

37:16

shell, then the women came into

37:19

the interior and let out. They

37:22

made the carpets. They made the curtains.

37:25

And Joseph observed that in

37:28

this, as in all things, and again,

37:30

I'm paraphrasing, the sisters have led out.

37:35

And we hear echoes of that even now

37:38

when the idea

37:41

of ministering was introduced, where we

37:43

retired home teaching and visiting teaching

37:46

and ministering was introduced. Our

37:50

senior leaders weren't

37:53

even subtle about saying that all we're

37:55

doing is trying to do what

37:57

the sisters have got the vision of. all

38:00

along and trying to minister

38:03

as they ministered. I might also mention

38:05

that this contribution that

38:07

the sisters made in Kirtland eventually

38:10

led to the same contribution in Nauvoo,

38:14

which was the foundational

38:18

act for the beginning

38:20

of Relief Society. And so we point

38:22

to Sarah Granger Kimball, who was a

38:25

teenager in Kirtland, and

38:27

then in Nauvoo, she starts this

38:31

practice of let's make shirts, let's help them

38:33

with whatever clothing we can so

38:36

that we can keep the workers on

38:38

site and we don't lose any because

38:40

they literally lose a shirt. So

38:43

they start that shirt making

38:45

and clothing making and providing those types

38:47

of things. And that was the beginning

38:50

of Relief Society in Nauvoo,

38:53

which was eventually organized in

38:56

the Red Brick store. But

38:58

it was initially talked about and

39:01

had its beginnings in Sarah Granger Kimball's

39:05

home that grew out of

39:08

this act of shirt making and clothing

39:10

providing for the Nauvoo

39:12

Temple, which is simply replicating

39:15

the same thing that happened in

39:17

Kirtland. So I think there's a

39:19

beautiful tie to the origins of

39:22

Relief Society and what

39:24

the sisters did in Kirtland. Well,

39:26

that's really interesting. I had never heard

39:29

that story. While we're on the

39:31

topic of the Relief Society, the

39:33

Red Brick store was also part

39:35

of this acquisition and that

39:38

is significant because the Relief Society,

39:40

as you mentioned, was organized there.

39:42

But I found it interesting that

39:44

what the church purchased is actually

39:46

just a rebuild of the Red

39:48

Brick store. Why was it

39:50

important for the church to acquire

39:52

something that's simply a replica? So

39:56

good question and maybe

39:58

its best answer. by

40:01

casting your mind upon a

40:03

vision of the Nauvoo Temple

40:06

that is in Nauvoo right now. It

40:09

is a replica and yet it means

40:11

so much because it is a

40:13

temple but also because it

40:15

is a replica of the Nauvoo

40:17

Temple. In

40:19

the same way what happened in

40:22

the Red Book Store is so

40:24

significant that the replica, the rebuilding

40:26

of that store, it takes on

40:29

special meaning. We're so grateful to

40:32

Community of Christ for what they did.

40:34

They built it on the

40:37

original foundation and did

40:39

a wonderful job. And

40:42

our historians, I'm not

40:44

a trained historian, but our

40:46

historians and archivists and conservators

40:49

are, they marvel and are

40:51

very complimentary of

40:54

what Community of

40:56

Christ did in that reconstruction and

40:58

how they did it. The

41:01

original building fell into disrepair and was

41:03

destroyed, I think, or cleared

41:05

in about 1890. And then in 1980 is

41:07

when Community of Christ rebuilt it. But you're

41:09

right, what

41:14

happened in the upper room of that little

41:16

store is very significant to us, including

41:20

the foundation of the Relief Society. Speaking

41:23

of the Community of Christ, my

41:26

understanding, other McKay, is that the

41:28

church didn't always have a great

41:31

relationship with the Community of

41:33

Christ Church, but then over

41:35

time this tremendous friendship has

41:37

been established and a mutual

41:40

respect. And that's kind of what

41:42

led to this acquisition. I

41:45

wondered how have you been inspired by

41:47

the relationship that the church has worked

41:49

to develop and that I'm sure the

41:51

Community of Christ has worked to develop

41:53

with us as Latter-day Saints? Thank

41:57

you. It has been inspiring to watch it. I,

41:59

I... I was not involved

42:03

intellectually at the time when there

42:05

might have been frosty relationships. Certainly,

42:08

it kind of became that way over

42:10

the years because of the

42:12

difference in religions and

42:14

religious views. There

42:17

was always a cordial relationship though

42:19

between people. And I

42:21

just think of, first of all, I think

42:23

of Joseph and Hiram. And then

42:26

the religions kind of split down those

42:28

lines with Hiram's

42:30

posterity coming to Salt

42:32

Lake City and being part of the Church

42:34

of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And Joseph's

42:37

posterity eventually becoming part of the

42:39

reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of

42:41

Latter-day Saints, now Community of

42:43

Christ. But Hiram and Joseph

42:45

were as tight as any two people,

42:48

any two brothers could be. Their

42:51

children, Joseph III from

42:54

Joseph Smith Jr. and Joseph

42:56

F. Smith from Hiram, were

42:59

also cordial and had

43:01

a strong familial bond. So

43:04

those relationships have lasted

43:06

over the years, but the religious differences

43:09

have on some level

43:11

created or did create

43:13

a frosty relationship that began

43:15

to thaw, we believe,

43:17

because of our shared heritage, including,

43:20

and maybe especially, the Kirtland

43:22

Temple and the sites in Nauvoo.

43:25

We both cherish those and hold

43:27

them dear. And so it

43:29

was through these

43:31

historic sites and historic

43:34

artifacts that there

43:36

began to be a thaw and

43:38

a mutual interest and a mutual

43:41

study and a mutual preservation for

43:45

years when they owned these, they

43:47

would invite us to help in preservation efforts.

43:51

For example, we assisted

43:54

in the preservation of the printer's

43:56

manuscript long before we were

43:58

able to purchase it. So

44:01

these types of things have gone on for a long time. Our

44:04

historian scholars have met

44:06

together and have enjoyed sharing information

44:08

and that has helped the Thaw.

44:11

Having said that, this is a

44:14

difficult time and I want to

44:16

highlight how this

44:18

relationship is now because

44:22

at the end of the day, it's

44:24

the people that caused the Thaw. The

44:30

transfer of these properties and

44:32

artifacts came

44:35

as a surprise to many of the

44:37

community of most of them and

44:40

it is deeply saddening

44:42

to them. I'm

44:44

learning this and trying to give

44:46

space. It was just deeply

44:49

saddening and some

44:52

of them have expressed frustration and even anger.

44:55

So I was in Kirtland last

44:58

week with Bishop Waddell and

45:01

saw a beautiful scene. I

45:04

saw a grieving local pastor

45:06

of Community of Christ who

45:10

had just lost something dear to

45:13

her and I

45:15

saw her with one of our

45:17

senior sister missionaries and

45:19

they already share a love for each

45:22

other. And here is

45:24

our sister missionary who has

45:26

great cause to rejoice and

45:29

is rejoicing because of

45:31

this acquisition that we've, as you say,

45:33

longed for for years. And

45:36

yes, she has such a profound

45:38

love and respect for her friend

45:40

in Community of Christ. I

45:43

watched them embrace and

45:46

I watched them both weep

45:48

together and mourn

45:51

together. So there's a beautiful lesson in

45:53

that even as institutionally

45:56

there are some

45:58

differences. And I

46:00

think this sweet woman from Community of

46:03

Christ, by her

46:05

own words, struggles with some

46:07

of the things that happen institutionally. She

46:10

is there embracing and

46:14

sharing love with our

46:17

member, our sister missionary. And it was a

46:19

beautiful sight and a beautiful example of mourning

46:22

with those who mourn, even if you're in

46:24

the middle of something that gives you great

46:26

cause to rejoice. Absolutely.

46:29

That's beautiful. Elder

46:31

McKay, I'm conscious of time, so I just

46:33

have two last questions for you. One

46:36

is, how has being involved in

46:38

this experience strengthened your testimony

46:40

of the Lord's concern and

46:43

awareness of His church today?

46:48

So it's been wonderful to have these documents

46:51

and artifacts and properties transferred

46:53

to us, but I

46:56

might expand your question just a little bit

46:58

to include not just

47:00

His church, but His children. Because

47:03

I've become so acutely aware of

47:05

His love for all of His

47:08

children, and in this case, not

47:10

just those within our church, but also

47:12

within Community of Christ. And

47:14

I have felt His love and concern

47:17

and compassion and gratitude

47:20

for Community of Christ. And

47:23

I have also felt His stirring

47:26

love for the

47:28

members of this church and

47:30

His plans, His

47:32

vision for what might

47:34

happen from here on out, to

47:36

be able to unleash the power

47:39

of the story of the

47:42

dedication and the love of God. And the

47:44

restoration that happened on April 3rd, 1836. And

47:48

that has all been wonderful

47:50

to see and envision. He

47:52

said in back-to-back verses in the Book

47:55

of Mormon, I'm able to do my own work,

47:58

and He's doing it. take

48:00

a child to work day and it is

48:02

a glorious privilege to be his child and

48:04

go to work with him and watch

48:06

him do it. It is a

48:08

glorious thing indeed. I

48:11

can only imagine the things that you

48:14

have experienced and felt as you have

48:16

been able to be be a part

48:18

of this and I appreciate

48:20

you sharing just a

48:22

glimpse into that with us today and

48:25

with me. So thank you so much

48:27

for taking the time. My last question

48:29

for you is what does it mean

48:31

to you to be all in the gospel

48:33

of Jesus Christ? I'm

48:36

going to borrow an experience

48:38

that was related in an

48:40

address given by Thomas Griffith. There

48:43

was an Italian immigrant

48:45

who came to America was

48:47

filling out papers somewhere and on

48:50

the form it said it asked him to

48:53

list his occupation and he

48:55

wrote, I

48:57

am a servant of God, I

49:00

mend shoes. To

49:02

me that describes that captures what

49:04

it means to be all in.

49:08

No matter what we do, no matter where we

49:10

go, we are always a

49:12

servant of God, a child of God,

49:14

a child of the covenant, a disciple

49:17

of Jesus Christ. And then I

49:19

think of examples of people who are all

49:21

in. Think of the saints

49:23

who built the Kirtland Temple. They

49:25

were all in. Think

49:28

of the saints, I have a strong

49:30

tie to the Martin and Willie companies.

49:33

They were all in. They gave their all,

49:35

even their lives. Joseph Smith

49:37

the prophet was all in

49:40

and Hiram was right there with

49:42

him. All in. To

49:45

be all in for me means

49:47

that you are immersed. You

49:50

have been baptized by fire.

49:54

You have been immersed in the

49:56

Spirit and you don't need

49:58

to know all things. But

50:01

it is important to know with

50:03

certainty the important things. And

50:06

that happens to all of us the way it

50:08

happened to Peter. Through

50:10

the gentle nudgings, the

50:12

quiet assurances of the spirit speaking

50:15

to your mind and to your heart, and

50:17

that will make you all in and that

50:20

will keep you all in. Eller

50:24

Okay, this has been so, so

50:27

enjoyable for me. I feel like I could

50:29

listen to you talk all day. So thank

50:31

you so much for spending some time with

50:33

me. Morgan, it has

50:35

been my privilege. I'm just thrilled with

50:37

what you do. And, and when I

50:40

say what you do, I mean, primarily,

50:43

your beautiful mothering of this

50:45

beautiful family that I have

50:47

met. And I

50:49

congratulate you and wish you all

50:51

the best. And I'm grateful to

50:53

be a fellow servant with you.

50:56

Thank you so much. A

51:00

huge thank you to Elder Kyle S.

51:02

McKay for joining us on this week's

51:04

episode. As always, we're grateful

51:06

to Derek Campbell of Mix It 6

51:08

Studios for his help with this episode, and

51:11

we're grateful to you for listening. We

51:13

hope you have a wonderful Easter and we

51:15

look forward to being with you again next

51:17

week.