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0:31

Good evening from Washington, D.C. I'm

0:33

Michael Steele, in

0:36

for Chris Hayes. As a real estate

0:38

developer, Donald Trump loved to put his

0:40

name on OPP, Other People's Buildings. Now

0:44

he's about to pull off a similar rebranding

0:46

on the Republican National Committee, and it's going to

0:49

end up pretty much like

0:51

his failed Atlantic City casino. After forcing one-time

0:53

ally Ronald McDaniel as

0:56

out as RNC chair, Trump endorsed

0:58

his own daughter-in-law for co-chair. Today,

1:01

Laura Trump spoke at CPAC, laying out

1:03

her plan. Ladies and gentlemen, I come

1:05

bearing good news here today, because

1:10

less than nine months away from changing

1:13

all that, we will see Donald J.

1:15

Trump elected as a 47-year-old. By

1:18

going all in on his capitulation to Trump, the

1:21

party of fiscal responsibility is making an

1:23

atrocious information Trump's

1:26

rise has led to a diminished Republican Party,

1:28

electorally, financially, and infidelity to conservative values.

1:33

Trump has led the Republican Party on an embarrassing losing

1:36

streak, despite promises the GOP would, quote,

1:39

get tired of winning. A

1:42

few things to keep in mind. The party is

1:44

losing money, ending last year with its lowest fundraising

1:46

totals in a decade. Laura

1:49

Trump has not ruled out paying her father-in-law's mounting

1:52

legal bills. Donald Trump is the

1:54

ultimate rhino. Yeah, that's what

1:57

he said. That's

2:00

right, he's a rhino, Republican in

2:02

name only, because as president, Trump

2:04

abandoned free trade, racked up huge

2:06

deficits, and cozied up to authoritarians.

2:09

And for nearly a decade, the Republican

2:11

Party has been consumed by

2:13

Trump's chaos, division, grifters, and

2:16

conspiracy theories. Now it

2:18

appears this once great party wants more

2:20

of the same. Yeah, so

2:22

much for winning. I'm

2:24

joined now by Sabrina Siddiqui, a White

2:27

House reporter for The Wall Street Journal,

2:29

McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The

2:31

Atlantic, and Lucy Caldwell, veteran Republican strategist

2:33

who served as campaign manager for former

2:36

Illinois Congressman and my buddy Joe Walsh.

2:39

Thank you all for being here. So Lucy, I want to

2:41

begin with you on this one. Could

2:43

you give us some sense, just some inkling of

2:46

a sense of how Donald

2:48

Trump managed this complete takeover of

2:50

the RNC now? And

2:52

what it says about the party currently

2:54

and going forward? Well,

2:58

Michael, of course, you know about this

3:00

better than anyone based on your own

3:02

record, and you know by your own

3:05

record that this is really something's gone

3:07

wrong. After Donald Trump became president, he

3:09

did something kind of unprecedented. He actually

3:11

went about systematically removing state party chairs

3:13

throughout the country, really shoring

3:15

up the committee to make sure that like

3:18

his base, he, it was full of loyalists.

3:20

I think it's easy in an episode like

3:22

this to lose sight of what it is

3:24

that a national party does. Does the Republican

3:26

National Committee do or what is it supposed

3:28

to do? It's supposed to recruit

3:30

candidates, you know, create

3:32

data and technology resources

3:35

for candidates. It's supposed to build up

3:37

volunteer bases. It's supposed to create infrastructure

3:39

to make it easier for candidates to

3:41

win, to recruit high quality candidates to

3:43

make them successful. In the Trump era,

3:45

we've seen that the Republican Committee is

3:47

focused on doing the opposite. And as

3:49

Laura Trump herself said this week, now

3:52

they're even contemplating paying Donald Trump's legal

3:54

bills. That would be, you know, sort

3:56

of in line with Trump doing things

3:58

like using campaign funds to pay. a quarter

4:00

of a million dollars a year to his

4:02

wife's hairstylist. So it's true that behind the

4:04

scenes maybe they have a slightly more serious

4:06

person in Michael Watley, who's the chair of

4:08

the North Carolina Republican Party, who is Trump's

4:10

pick for chair. But Lara Trump should be

4:12

nowhere near the co-chairship of the RNC. And

4:14

I never thought I would say this, but

4:17

I think her talent would actually be better

4:19

spent recording covers of Tom Petty songs,

4:21

and she's not very good at that either. Well,

4:23

there is that. Sabrina,

4:26

I think there are a couple of interesting

4:28

points here, particularly around the money piece. I

4:31

mean, given where the party is financially right

4:33

now, what have you discovered from your reporting

4:36

or learning from your reporting about whether

4:38

or not the party is actually going to go through

4:40

paying these bills? Can they really afford to pay the

4:42

bills and win elections? Well, the RNC

4:44

certainly does not have the money to pay

4:47

former President Trump's legal bills.

4:50

You know, one of the main problems

4:52

that they've had is that a lot of

4:54

donors have not actually been willing to cut

4:56

large checks to the RNC in part

4:58

because they don't want that money going

5:01

to former President Trump.

5:03

And so I don't think that Lara Trump's comments

5:05

are going to help with their

5:07

fundraising capabilities, at least with

5:09

a faction of Republican

5:12

donors, because that is a big concern,

5:14

that money is going

5:16

to be used for his

5:18

extensive legal bills rather than propping

5:20

up other Republican candidates and

5:22

just the broader pursuit, not

5:24

just of taking back the White

5:27

House, but also of gains

5:29

in Congress. But we've

5:31

seen this Trumpification of the entire

5:33

Republican political apparatus that's been really

5:35

years in the making. I mean,

5:38

you know, feel to Trump has actually

5:40

been a hallmark of the RNC, even under, you

5:42

know, it's soon to be

5:44

outgoing leadership. I mean, Ronald McDaniel really

5:46

took every possible step to appease former

5:50

President Trump. Now, candidate

5:52

Trump, it was just that, you know, she went on

5:54

withholding the debates, you know,

5:56

that was one of the sort of and didn't maybe do enough in

5:59

his. to go after

6:02

what he said was election fraud, and we all know it

6:04

was actually a lie and a free and fair election. So

6:07

I don't think that no matter

6:09

what the RNC says about paying or not paying

6:11

his legal bills or the Trump campaign suggesting that

6:14

they won't pay, use RNC, pay his legal bills,

6:16

I think we know that the RNC and all

6:18

of the Republican political

6:21

apparatus would very much be used to do whatever

6:23

Trump tells them to do. And

6:25

that's the thing, okay, that they're gonna do whatever Trump

6:27

tells them to do. And so

6:29

Sabrina's right in terms of the price

6:32

for loyalty to Trump is basically a

6:34

kick in the tush and goodbye, thank

6:36

you very much. But you do have

6:38

news of the teamsters out there who've

6:40

apparently their pack has made

6:43

its first significant donation to the RNC

6:45

in many, many years. Does

6:48

that mean the GOP may have

6:50

to, to Sabrina's point, go outside

6:53

the traditional bounds of raising

6:55

their money to find new

6:58

donors? Well, I

7:00

mean, look, if you think of the

7:02

RNC and the broader

7:05

Republican institution constellation

7:08

as being essentially now a part of

7:10

the Trump business, you have to think

7:12

about the way Trump has run his

7:14

businesses in the past, right? Which is

7:16

that he racks up enormous debt, he

7:18

often tries to find ways to stiff

7:20

his lenders. He is, you know, there

7:23

are bankruptcies, there are refusals to pay.

7:26

I think that if the, you know,

7:28

I do think Republicans in the RNC

7:30

especially are going to be searching for

7:32

new sources of revenue. But if I

7:34

were the teamster pack or another pack

7:36

that is kind of sitting

7:38

down for a meeting where I'm being

7:40

pitched on, you should really consider donating.

7:43

I'm looking at this and saying, well, what

7:45

am I giving money to? You know, what

7:47

am I getting in return? Because the way

7:50

that the Trump family has run their businesses

7:52

in the past, we just

7:54

talked about the one-way loyalty. I

7:57

would be very skeptical. of

8:00

expecting any kind of return on investment

8:03

donating to the RNC when it's becoming

8:05

increasingly just a part of the Trump

8:07

family business? Yeah, let's continue with that

8:10

thought given

8:12

what we saw at CPAC today, for example,

8:14

where you had a lot of folks

8:16

and a lot of energy, Lucy,

8:18

around this idea

8:21

of Trump, not just

8:23

securing the nomination but winning in November.

8:26

It really was a Trump convention in

8:28

so many ways where CPAC in the

8:30

past, back in the day when we, you

8:33

and I used to trace those halls, was

8:35

more about getting a cavalcade of up

8:37

and coming Republicans who were out there

8:39

talking about Reagan policies or Bush policies.

8:41

That's not what we're hearing in the

8:43

scene today. What does it say about

8:46

the conservative movement if

8:48

there is such a thing anymore? Well,

8:52

the conservative movement is a shell of

8:54

itself. And so even the term conservative

8:56

has stopped meaning much at all. You're

8:58

right about how CPAC is not what

9:00

it once was, but it's also not

9:02

even what it was a few years

9:04

ago. I mean, even this week, there

9:06

was news that CPAC is now not

9:09

gonna credential media that they think are

9:11

too left of center, right? Or that

9:13

aren't sort of like haven't adequately passed

9:15

the CPAC litmus test. Even just

9:17

a few years ago, even at the end

9:19

of, even in 2020, at the end of

9:21

Trump's term, CPAC was still an event

9:23

where you had a radio row, you had

9:26

NPR, had a booth, right? You had

9:28

liberal journalists, moderate journalists, centrist,

9:30

mainstream journalists. So I think it just

9:33

shows that this is just degrading so

9:35

fast. There is no bottom. We don't

9:37

even know what the bottom is yet.

9:39

And just as with CPAC, you see

9:42

that sort of on the other side,

9:44

the RNC is now going to install

9:46

the completely incompetent unqualified daughter-in-law who has

9:48

no experience in campaigns or politics whatsoever

9:51

other than being a Trump family

9:53

member as part of the leadership of the

9:55

RNC. So we don't know how bad this

9:57

could get, but we do know, I think...

10:00

get this point that there is no bottom. So buckle

10:02

up and we'll find out. That's right.

10:05

And Sabrina, that idea that CPAC

10:08

and probably other organs inside

10:10

what's left of the GOP are trying

10:13

to carve out this space where

10:15

they get the people to cover them

10:17

that they want to cover them the

10:19

way they want to be covered. So

10:22

the idea of independent journalists like yourself

10:24

and McKay coming to the table to

10:26

cover the news, seemingly

10:28

that's not what they want. You

10:30

guys are left to center because you're

10:33

not MAGA right. How does

10:35

the press adjust and adapt to

10:37

this emerging environment in this campaign

10:39

season where you probably have less

10:41

and less access? I mean,

10:43

access has been an increasing challenge for

10:45

the press more broadly for years now,

10:47

but you just continue and

10:49

go about covering the news and

10:52

covering both campaigns, both parties as

10:54

extensively as you can. I mean, with

10:57

respect to CPAC, I guess people have

10:59

now missed out on coverage of the

11:01

January 6th pinball machine that they had

11:03

at this year's convention. I

11:08

think what's illuminating though about events

11:10

like CPAC and why it's important

11:12

to have journalists inside the room

11:14

is it really does show how

11:16

what was once maybe the fringe

11:18

of the Republican Party,

11:21

how that has now actually become the mainstream.

11:23

And so when you're talking about CPAC

11:27

and it once was maybe a

11:29

launching pad for some of the

11:31

major Republican Party contenders, whether

11:33

it was an ongoing election or

11:35

a future campaign

11:38

cycle, now it really is just the

11:40

Trump show. And so I

11:43

think that is probably what the big takeaway is

11:45

from CPAC this year as

11:47

well as in recent years, and

11:49

especially after January 6th, it shows

11:51

that if there was ever going to be

11:53

any effort to desert him, that ship has

11:55

long since sailed. That's gone. And McKay, last

11:57

question to you. What

12:00

are we to look for? What are

12:02

you hearing and seeing out there right now, given

12:05

CPAC and all the other things that are going on?

12:07

As with South Carolina this weekend,

12:10

what do you think the general

12:12

mood among Republicans is going into, they

12:14

really have, they got this, right? They

12:16

really have this right now. Or do

12:18

they see this really being much more

12:20

of a battle once they fully engage

12:22

with Democrats? I mean, look,

12:25

I think that the problem that Republicans

12:27

who are not in the kind of

12:29

Trump cult, right, because there's the hardcore

12:31

Trump allies and there's everybody else. The

12:35

non-Trumpites, they're pretty

12:37

defeated from what I mean. I don't know if the conversations are

12:39

the same way for you. What

12:41

I'm gonna be looking for is, Trump,

12:44

his entire track record shows that he

12:46

is pretty bad at winning elections. He's

12:48

bad at beating Democrats. What he's good

12:51

at is beating Republicans. He's beat many

12:53

Republican primary funds when he wades into

12:55

congressional primaries, the candidates he endorses win,

12:58

but they often don't win in the

13:00

general. And so the question is, with

13:03

the ongoing Trumpification of Republican institutions, will

13:05

that change or will we see another

13:08

repeat of 2020, 2022,

13:11

2018 of Republicans lining up behind Trump

13:13

and following him into a series of

13:15

humiliating defeats? Well, Trump rhinos are like

13:18

that. They like to lose. Sabrina Siddiqui,

13:20

McKay Coppins, and Lucy Caldwell, thank you

13:22

all very, very much. Still

13:24

ahead, how the star witness for

13:26

the Republican impeachment effort ended up

13:28

back behind bars tonight after claiming

13:30

he got the Biden misinformation from

13:32

Russian intelligence. That's

13:35

next. The

13:39

star witness for the House Republican Impeachment

13:42

Inquiry into President Joe Biden is under

13:44

arrest again. This is Alexander

13:46

Smirnoff leaving court after first being arrested

13:48

for making false statements to the FBI.

13:51

This morning, he was taken back into custody

13:53

under fears of being a flight risk. Meanwhile,

13:56

the Republicans who were using his lies

13:59

to fuel their... silly goose chase,

14:01

including the head silly goose, James

14:03

Comer, are scrambling to act

14:05

like well, it's no big deal. Just

14:08

a week ago, the House Oversight Committee

14:10

website listed, quote, FBI form 1023 alleging

14:14

then Vice President Joe Biden engaged

14:16

in a bribery and extortion scheme

14:19

under key evidence. But if

14:21

you go to that website today, there is no

14:23

mention of that form. And that's

14:25

not the only notable deletion. We

14:29

know that White House staffers reported this

14:31

morning received subpoena letters on

14:34

this week saying you have to

14:36

come and testify for

14:38

this impeachment inquiry. One staffer told

14:40

me he received a letter and then 90

14:42

minutes later received a second. The second letter

14:44

says, hey, disregard the first, use this one

14:46

instead. He looked at them and said, well,

14:48

what's the difference between the two? It's because

14:50

all the references to Smirnoff in the first

14:52

letter had been stripped out. Carlos

14:57

Cabrilla is a former Republican congressman from the

14:59

great state of Florida. He joins me now.

15:01

Carlos is so good to see you, my

15:03

friend. So you've got Jim Jordan and James

15:05

Comer acting like, well, this informant thing is

15:07

no big deal. It's no big deal that

15:09

he's being arrested and charged with false statements.

15:11

None of it's a big deal. What

15:14

does this mean for rank and

15:16

file members facing reelection campaigns this

15:18

fall? How do they navigate what

15:20

is obvious a problem? Michael,

15:24

it's good to be with you. And this is

15:26

definitely a problem when you think about why Joe

15:28

Biden won the 2020 election. One

15:31

of the big reasons is that swing

15:33

voters in swing states all over the

15:35

country decided that they had had enough

15:37

of Donald Trump's scandals and controversies and

15:39

all the chaos. So they chose Joe

15:41

Biden because they wanted more normalcy. They

15:43

wanted more stability in government. Now what

15:45

congressional republic is trying to do is

15:48

they're trying to tell those swing voters like

15:50

there isn't really a difference between Donald Trump and

15:52

Joe Biden. They both have scandals. They both

15:54

have controversies. And while Democrats do have

15:58

The more challenges this time around. The

16:00

President signs. Certainly there's a big

16:02

difference between our anything President Biden

16:04

has, allegedly.and of course or everything

16:06

Donald Trump has done our most

16:08

prominent of his senses january Six.

16:10

So this really puts a dent

16:12

a big dent in it's not

16:15

just the case that Republicans trying

16:17

to build, but the political strategy

16:19

ahead of the Twenty Four like

16:21

since. And you mentioned some of

16:23

his rank and file members, some

16:25

of the swing district members. I

16:27

think you're gonna see some of

16:29

the. Swing district members in Biden districts

16:31

and districts at present by and wonder

16:34

held by Republicans. they're going to start

16:36

distancing themselves from in this investigation because

16:38

the more we find out of the

16:40

weaker it appears of the cases. But

16:42

it is not just the distancing as

16:44

the clarifying list take for example, Colorado

16:47

Republican Ten Bucks who was pretty critical

16:49

of this development last night. So let's

16:51

take a listen to what he had

16:53

to say. We.

16:56

Were warned at the time that

16:58

we received the or document outlining

17:00

this witness's testimony we were more

17:02

into bed or the credibility of

17:04

the statement was was not known

17:07

and yes of people are. My

17:09

colleagues went out and and talk

17:11

to the public about how this

17:13

was credible and how it was

17:15

damning and how are a proved

17:18

President Bidens at the time vice

17:20

President Biden? It's complicity in receiving

17:22

bribes as do it appears to

17:24

absolutely be false. And a

17:26

really undercut the the nature of

17:28

the charges. Suppose

17:31

they were warned about his credibility and

17:33

now he's been charged with why, right?

17:35

So here's what here we are: Soldered,

17:39

They go for it with impeachment. How does

17:41

this impeachment effort survive after something like this?

17:44

While the truth is that it's

17:47

going to be very difficult, I

17:49

mean, you saw how difficult it

17:51

was for Republicans to impeach secretary

17:53

my Yorkers on basically immigration, an

17:55

issue that actually unites all Republicans

17:58

are. But even then it's. The

18:00

Republican stepped out. Now republicans haven't even

18:02

thought smaller majority because democrats one that

18:04

swing district in Long Island. So with

18:07

people like ten bucks who are retiring

18:09

and who can actually express themselves with

18:11

sincerity or a barren also those it's

18:13

going to be very difficult for republicans

18:16

to move forward with the step. But

18:18

it's not just those members who are

18:20

aren't worried about any political consequences I

18:23

sent a lot of a swing district.

18:25

members are gonna say it's You know

18:27

what? This isn't good for us. This

18:29

doesn't. Make sense are districts voted for Joe

18:32

Biden last time. If we do this it

18:34

might me more. It might be more likely

18:36

that we lose south. This is a big

18:38

problem House republicans are having. Michael they through

18:40

all this might up a wall or to

18:42

try to tarnish present buttons image. Lot.

18:44

Of that money is coming off and they're starting to

18:47

look bad. Ah, that's

18:49

the best. Being polite. Vow

18:52

of Corolla By do so much by

18:55

further free status coming out. The two

18:57

men who wants a remake the Republican

18:59

house and they're very different ideas of

19:01

what that will look like coming up

19:04

next. The

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by visiting rescue.org/rebuild. Well,

20:14

Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida has

20:16

an ax to grind. The MAGA

20:18

loyalist who ousted the last Republican

20:20

speaker is reportedly still mad at

20:22

the party establishment over a congressional

20:24

ethics probe into allegations of his

20:26

sexual impropriety. Now that

20:29

puts him decidedly at odds with

20:31

the new Republican speaker, Mike Johnson.

20:33

According to a new report, the

20:35

far-right Christian nationalist used a recent

20:37

Republican weekend retreat as an opportunity

20:39

to deliver a sermon to his

20:41

Republican conference on the nation's supposed

20:44

declining moral and religious character. And

20:47

as one of my next guests

20:49

reports, Johnson's strain of MAGA Christianity

20:51

is ascendant in today's Republican

20:53

party. Heidi Presla is

20:55

an award-winning national investigative correspondent

20:57

for Politico. Her latest piece

20:59

is titled Trump allies prepare

21:02

to infuse Christian nationalism in

21:04

second administration. And Dexter

21:06

Filkins is Pulitzer Prize winning staff

21:08

writer at the New Yorker. His

21:10

latest piece is titled Matt Gaetz

21:12

chaos agenda. And they both join

21:14

me now. I'm excited to have

21:16

you guys here. So Dexter, let's

21:18

start with you on this

21:21

idea that Matt Gaetz

21:24

has about sort of doing the

21:26

CYA because of all these

21:28

investigations. Is

21:31

he mad at Mike Johnson at this point?

21:33

Is he concerned at this point? He

21:35

ousted the last guy. What do you see

21:37

Matt trying to do with this

21:40

situation given, you

21:43

know, what he wanted McCarthy to do, which

21:45

was squash that

21:47

investigation into his ethics? Well,

21:50

he denies that. He says he

21:52

was taking down, he wanted to take down McCarthy

21:54

because the budget deficit was too big. It's

21:57

still really big. It was when he was in office. when

22:00

he took down McCarthy, but there's not

22:02

a lot Johnson can do. I mean,

22:05

it's a House Ethics Commission investigation. Johnson

22:08

can't quash that, and he knows he can't, and

22:10

that's what McCarthy told Gates. I can't do this

22:12

for you. I won't do it. And

22:15

so that was sort of, that was

22:17

the context within which he took down

22:19

McCarthy. Was that the motive? It's unclear,

22:22

and we don't know yet what the House Ethics Commission

22:24

is going to do. So any day

22:26

now, we could find out whether

22:29

or not that goes anywhere, or it just kind

22:31

of ends. Is

22:34

that basically where we are? Well, it's pretty

22:36

similar. I mean, the worst that can happen to

22:38

him, the criminal investigation is over. It's done.

22:40

They didn't charge him. So the

22:42

worst that could happen would be kicked out of

22:44

Congress. It'd be like George Santos. So

22:46

on the other side,

22:49

Heidi, you've got the new speaker, Mike

22:52

Johnson, who's not afraid to wear his

22:54

Christianity on his sleeve, his collar, his

22:56

lapel, his head, wherever he can wear

22:59

it. How do

23:01

members react to that? How

23:03

are they responding to this

23:05

real strong infusion of Christian

23:07

nationalism into the body

23:10

politic of the House? I talk

23:12

with a lot of experts on this, and I've seen it

23:14

myself with my reporting, Michael, which is that the

23:17

base of the Republican Party

23:19

has shifted, right? Remember when Trump ran

23:21

in 2016, a lot of the mainline evangelicals

23:24

wanted nothing to do with the

23:27

divorced, you know,

23:29

real estate mogul who cheated on his wife

23:31

and with a porn star and all

23:33

of that, right? So what happened was

23:35

he was surrounded by this more extremist

23:37

element. You're going to hear words like

23:39

Christian nationalism, like the new apostolic

23:42

reformation. These are groups that

23:44

you should get very, very

23:47

schooled on because they have a lot of

23:49

power in Trump's circle. And the one thing

23:51

that unites all of them, because there's many

23:54

different groups orbiting Trump, but the thing that

23:56

re not unites them as Christian nationalists, not

23:59

Christians, by the way. because Christian nationalists

24:01

is very different, is that

24:03

they believe that our rights as Americans,

24:05

as all human beings, don't come from

24:08

any earthly authority. They don't come from Congress, they don't

24:10

come from the Supreme Court, they come from God. The

24:13

problem with that is that they are determining man,

24:16

men, there it is, men, are

24:18

determining what God is telling them. And

24:20

in the past, that so-called natural law

24:23

is, you know, it's a

24:25

pillar of Catholicism, for

24:27

instance, it's been used for good

24:29

in social justice campaigns. Martin Luther

24:31

King evoked it in talking about

24:33

civil rights, but now you have

24:35

an extremist element of conservative

24:37

Christians who say that this applies specifically

24:39

to issues including abortion, gay marriage, and

24:42

it's going much further than that, as

24:44

you see, for instance, with the ruling

24:46

in Alabama. This week, that judge

24:48

is connected to that Dominionist faction

24:52

in talking about a lot of

24:54

other issues, including surrogacy,

24:57

IVF, you know, sex

24:59

education in schools, there's a lot

25:02

in addition. And therein lies the rub-dexter, because

25:04

the men are the one who get to

25:06

decide what God thinks and

25:08

feels about these issues, you

25:10

know, surrogacy or IVF. You

25:14

report that Matt Gaetz wants to remake

25:16

the GOP in his image, apparently so

25:19

does Mike Johnson. What

25:22

image is that? What does that look

25:24

like? Well, it's a,

25:27

look, the party's changing, right?

25:30

Republicans used to be golfers and

25:32

bankers. Right. And

25:34

increasingly, it's not that at all. It's a

25:36

populist party. It's Trump and

25:39

it's Gaetz. And I think

25:41

Johnson fits into that. So there's conflict

25:43

there, but I think essentially they're allies.

25:46

They're gonna disagree on some things. And I don't,

25:49

you know, Gaetz is basically a libertarian. And

25:51

so that is

25:54

not entirely compatible with what Mike

25:56

Johnson believes, but, you

25:58

know, they have big goals. and

26:01

they want power. And so I think,

26:04

my guess is that they'll figure out a way to

26:06

make peace on most issues. Well, you

26:09

know, it's interesting, Heidi, as these two

26:11

men are trying to carve the GOP

26:14

into their image, you've

26:16

got the titular head of the

26:18

party, Donald Trump, who

26:21

is not a paragon of Christian virtue.

26:24

How do they reconcile that? What is,

26:27

is it just about, oh, he got us the

26:29

Supreme Court? Is it just about,

26:32

he advocates for the things that

26:35

we advocate, doesn't matter whether or

26:37

not he himself believes them, or

26:39

has any type of moral connection,

26:41

or even a theocratic

26:43

one, given what you were saying.

26:45

It really depends on the individual, but

26:47

let's talk, for instance, about his spiritual

26:50

advisor, Paula White, who was a White

26:52

House employee. She was his spiritual advisor.

26:54

She is connected to this Dominionist movement,

26:56

and a lot of those individuals

26:58

believe that Trump actually was put

27:00

here by God. He

27:03

even tweeted this video, you know,

27:05

that God gave us Trump,

27:07

that he is a serious-like person

27:10

who is imperfect vessel, who

27:12

is nevertheless here put on

27:14

earth to do God's

27:16

work, to put Christianity back at

27:18

the center of civic life. And

27:21

you see that manifesting, not

27:23

just in the courts, and we're seeing that, like

27:25

with the IVF ruling, with the Mipha

27:28

Prestone ruling, that is making its way to

27:30

the Supreme Court, but with Project 2025, which is

27:32

an agenda that's

27:35

being, very detailed agenda,

27:37

that's gonna be offered up to

27:39

President Trump, or if he wins

27:41

a second term, right? Former President

27:44

Trump, to work through the

27:46

Department of Health and Human Services, as well

27:48

as potentially the FDA, that would really kind

27:50

of bypass even the courts in Congress to

27:52

do things like revoke authorization

27:55

of the abortion pill, and then, and this

27:57

is the one that doesn't get enough info.

28:00

enough attention is the influencer campaign that's

28:02

taking place right now in

28:04

the GOP to convince young women to

28:07

ditch hormonal birth control, that they are

28:09

sicker and they are more

28:12

stressed out being working

28:14

women and that they should embrace

28:16

being healthier and more natural and

28:19

having large families and daycare

28:22

is not good for your kids either. All of

28:24

these things actually happened at a

28:26

Turning Point USA conference for young

28:28

women leaders. Amazing. Dexter,

28:31

what's next for Gates? You've

28:33

been covering this guy. He

28:35

wants to be Florida governor. Where's the

28:38

landscape for him? He wants to be a governor

28:40

of Florida. Yeah. So

28:42

Ron DeSantis has got two years left. I

28:44

think it's all kind of lining up. Gates'

28:46

father, Don, who was the president of the

28:48

Florida Senate, is coming back to run again.

28:51

So it's all kind of lining up for him. But

28:54

the question is the ethics commission. What

28:56

happens? You know, the way our politics are

28:58

in the United States, so

29:00

polarized, it's not

29:03

clear that even if, let's

29:05

say, he

29:07

gets expelled from Congress because of

29:09

what's in the ethics commission report.

29:12

It's not clear that that would stop him in

29:15

Florida. Where does the badge of honor, I

29:17

mean, and of course the deep state and

29:19

all the other sundry foes in Selin, Washington

29:22

would have been the reason for

29:24

that. What the Democrats still are shocked

29:26

by continuously is they think, my God,

29:28

like Trump, he's been indicted again. You

29:30

know, and Matt Gates, he's like done

29:32

these terrible things and they thrive on

29:34

that. That makes them stronger. They do.

29:36

And they make a good grift off

29:38

of it as well. Heidi Perzilla and

29:41

Dexter Filkins, thank you both so much

29:43

for being here thinking. Up

29:45

next, how Republicans are scrambling

29:48

to reassure voters after Alabama

29:50

endangers access to fertility treatment.

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for the love of home. At

31:03

least three fertility clinics in Alabama

31:05

have now paused in vitro fertilization,

31:08

or IVF, after the Alabama Supreme

31:10

Court ruled that frozen embryos in

31:12

a lab have the same rights

31:15

as children, the fallout sending shockwaves

31:17

throughout the state and sending Republican

31:19

politicians scrambling. You see,

31:22

IVF is extremely popular. I

31:24

mean extremely popular. As Kellyanne

31:26

Conway's own polling firm found,

31:30

86% of all voters support access to

31:32

IVF, including 78% of

31:36

self-identified pro-life advocates and

31:38

83% of evangelical Christians.

31:41

So it's no wonder Nikki Haley is

31:44

now desperately trying to backpedal after agreeing

31:46

with the Alabama Supreme Court ruling that

31:48

embryos are babies. Today, she

31:50

says IVF should still be available,

31:53

because if there's one place Republican politicians

31:55

do not want to be in an

31:58

election year, it's on the loose. side

32:00

of a very popular issue. Tarisette

32:02

Mayer worked as a GOP Communications Director

32:05

on Capitol Hill. She is now a

32:07

Senior Advisor for the Lincoln Project. She

32:09

joins me now. Kara, it is so

32:11

good to have you here tonight. I

32:14

want to play for you a little

32:16

bit of Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville on

32:19

that ruling. Do

32:21

you have a reaction to the Alabama Supreme

32:23

Court ruling on the fact that embryos are

32:25

children? Yeah, I was all for it. We need to

32:28

have more kids. We need to have an opportunity to

32:30

do that and I thought this was the right thing

32:32

to do. IVF is used to have more children

32:34

and right now IVF services are paused at some

32:36

of the clinics in Alabama. Aren't you concerned that

32:38

this could impact people who are trying to have

32:41

kids? Well, that's

32:43

for another conversation. I

32:46

think that conversation is now, Tara. How is

32:48

this Alabama ruling and the threat to IVF

32:51

roiling the Republican politics as you see it

32:53

right now? Well,

32:55

the idiocy of Senator Tuberville

32:57

is palpable and just

32:59

extraordinary at times. It's not the

33:01

only time he's sounded like an absolute moron

33:04

and he's paid for by the taxpayers of

33:06

Alabama. Listen, this

33:09

is another example of

33:12

a kryptonite issue for Republicans.

33:15

They know that the majority of

33:17

the American people are pro-choice and

33:20

the overwhelming majority of people

33:22

are pro IVF, including their

33:25

own constituents in the Republican

33:27

Party, including the evangelicals who

33:29

overwhelmingly support IVF. There

33:32

have been 8 million babies

33:35

born through IVF in

33:37

this country. So according to

33:39

this Alabama Supreme Court ruling, I

33:41

guess then all of those babies and

33:43

all of those families who have had

33:45

the gift of life thanks to this

33:48

technology should not have been born. And

33:50

all of those people who are looking forward

33:52

to having children that suffer from infertility, which

33:55

is over 6 million women

33:57

in this country, Beta

34:00

shouldn't have that opportunity. As this

34:02

is what public is do not want to

34:05

have this discussion. Because. If

34:07

I'm the democrats, I'm. Coming

34:09

out. And n showcasing

34:11

all the families in my

34:13

district. Or. State or

34:16

in a national election set a had

34:18

had successful idea pregnancies and tell and

34:20

say to that I challenge republicans to

34:22

say that these children shouldn't have adblock

34:25

as shouldn't have a an opportunity at

34:27

life. I mean this.

34:29

The extremism. Now is really

34:31

beginning I think to sink in

34:33

for some people, particularly women across

34:36

this country who feel as though

34:38

they are under attack and they

34:40

are. The rights of women in

34:42

this country. Are under attack

34:44

daily. And. The Republican party? Is that

34:46

the hell? Of it and you have

34:49

yesterday. Nikki Haley say that she

34:51

agreed with the Alabama Supreme Court's

34:53

that embryos are children but later

34:55

on trying to clarify her remarks

34:57

or and saying ivy of should

34:59

be available What are your thoughts

35:01

on or as an example of

35:03

to your point this is a

35:05

space republicans just don't wanna be

35:07

as. Well. Nikki

35:09

Haley flip flopping on an issue with having to

35:12

backpedal on then explain again as just another day.

35:14

That and and why. This is part of

35:16

the weakness of her candidacy. Com and

35:18

this is coming from someone who use. Artificial

35:20

reproductive technology. To

35:23

have her own child still say they are

35:25

they. These people are just unbelievable at

35:27

times and and I'm glad that we're We're

35:29

pointing this out. Obscene. Know that this

35:31

is not an issue they wanted argue.

35:33

see know that the idea of banning I

35:35

V F is out of the mainstream.

35:37

so see how the clarified still trying to

35:40

a cheater to republican primary voters who

35:42

are on the extreme out of the mainstream

35:44

on this and then realize oh, wait

35:46

a minute, that's but you know that's

35:48

not the right answer self. I need a

35:50

Tetons. I need to keep myself. I

35:52

honestly this and I clarified. look

35:56

republican strategists across the country now that

35:58

the abortion issue the women's rights issue

36:00

is a losing one for them. And

36:03

there are over a dozen states that have

36:05

abortion on the ballot this year for referendums.

36:08

And in those swing states where the

36:10

abortion issue comes up, places like Michigan,

36:13

Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, they do

36:15

not want to have women

36:18

coming out in large numbers,

36:20

particularly Republican women, pro-choice women,

36:22

and voting as single-issue voters

36:25

on this, because that could swing the election

36:27

for Democrats. Republicans know this.

36:29

Talia and Conway put that memo out trying

36:31

to tell them, hey guys, you don't want

36:33

this issue to run better. You don't

36:36

want to go here. It's a loser for us, and

36:38

it should be. Women's rights

36:40

should not be under attack in 2024. This

36:43

is not an episode of The Handmaid's Tale.

36:45

But if you empower these people and let

36:47

them get voted into office, it will

36:49

be. Go

36:51

ahead, Senator. Always bringing it. Appreciate

36:53

you. Thank you so much, Tara. Bring

36:56

up the Republican plan to win the next

36:58

election with a can of gold spray paint

37:00

and some sneakers that deeply

37:02

cynical ploy and a Fox

37:05

News blow light for

37:07

the ages. Next.

37:15

If you want to know what Trump

37:17

campaign staffers think about you, just watch

37:19

Fox News like this weekend when they

37:21

gushed over Donald Trump's new ploy for

37:23

money, a limited-edition series

37:25

of gaudy gold, $400 Trump sneakers.

37:30

And like they always do on Fox,

37:32

somebody said the quiet part out loud

37:34

on what the big sneaker strategy is

37:36

really all about. Even

37:39

the sneaker thing, I was on social media last

37:41

night. Very interesting. As

37:43

you see, black support eroding from

37:46

Joe Biden. This is connecting

37:48

with black America because they love sneakers. They're

37:50

into sneakers. They love the, you know, this

37:52

is a big deal, certainly in the inner

37:54

city. So when you have Trump roll

37:56

out his sneaker line, they're like, wait a minute,

37:59

this is cool. These reaching them

38:01

on a level that defies and

38:03

is above politics. The culture always

38:05

trumps politics and Trump understands culture

38:07

like no politician have ever seen.

38:12

Seriously. Why

38:14

didn't I think of this when I ran the

38:16

Rnc? See. Black.

38:19

Folks love Snickers! And.

38:21

We can paint them gold. This

38:24

can't miss. Trust

38:26

me, it's a big mess. And.

38:29

They ugly as hell. And

38:32

Zola Council watches a lot of

38:34

Fox says the President and Ceo

38:36

Seo of Media Matters for America

38:38

and he joins me. Now Four

38:41

Hundred Dollar kicks in the old.

38:44

Are they really the cynical over there at

38:46

Fox? Yeah Any of the same guy ah

38:49

about a year ago when from mugs are

38:51

came out said that black people can quote

38:53

relate to Donald Trump now and it was

38:55

actually going to increases black support because he

38:57

had quotes secret. Ah, the same

38:59

guy here, so eat them. Some ways.

39:01

this is not just a one off,

39:03

this is part of a pattern from

39:05

from him and and forces more broadly

39:07

I insist. Cel, You know the mugshot.

39:09

Yeah, I guess that works for us

39:11

to it's were used to seeing Fox

39:14

do these types of things, were used

39:16

to seeing them demonize minorities, and so

39:18

to play up the sort of racial

39:20

angle on these things. Ah, It

39:23

gets worse is time now. Seemingly a

39:25

bit odd is really sucks this stuff

39:27

in and just sort of. Tasted

39:30

and goes yeah, that's this a word. Black

39:32

people now follow Donna Top. And because they'll

39:34

get a pair of sneakers. Yes, we're because

39:36

they they tend to have it both as

39:39

most of the time to demonize impossible right

39:41

arm. So just a few weeks ago, they

39:43

actually blame the Seven Thirty Seven, the the

39:45

Boeing door the opt outs. They blame that

39:47

on bowling allowing too many black people to

39:49

work on airplanes. That was. Not just one

39:52

facet. So that was an entire day of bosses

39:54

conference and that was an argument that they meet

39:56

and the audience completely. Consumed it and that's

39:58

a reflection of what. status of every

40:00

day, but then they have these one-offs where

40:03

they actually get excited about the idea in

40:05

this false narrative that somehow

40:07

Trump is capturing all

40:10

sorts of people across the country that it's not just

40:12

limited to his mogg support base. So

40:14

here's some racist narratives. Fox passed along just

40:16

off the top of my head. Bertherism,

40:20

Obama phones, migrant caravans, stealing

40:22

jobs. They just

40:24

had to apologize for live broadcast showing the

40:26

guardian angels roughing up a guy. They

40:29

said it was a migrant who actually is

40:32

from the Bronx. What did I

40:34

miss? Most recently, it claims that

40:37

they are trying to secretly

40:39

replace the national anthem, that

40:41

that's a big part of it, that they've

40:43

been sort of... Oh, because we've seen a

40:45

national black anthem. And it's part of a

40:47

larger conspiracy to dilute white power. That's right.

40:50

It is a huge problem. And they're really worried

40:52

about this because they've heard it played a lot

40:54

more regularly and they think there's some conspiracy going

40:56

on. They tie them

40:58

into the larger white genocide, great

41:00

replacement theory and the Fox News

41:02

world. They're actually the henchmen

41:04

for the great powers, mostly Jewish people that are

41:06

actually helping bring in all the immigrants. They're helping

41:09

perpetuate this through their sports and their culture. So

41:11

those are the two big ones more recently that

41:13

you've missed at Fox. Somehow

41:15

it just, it amazes me that

41:17

people actually believe that seeing

41:20

the national black

41:22

anthem lift every voice and sing is

41:24

threatening to white

41:28

life here in America. I want to move

41:30

on a little bit further into the abyss

41:32

with the My Pillow guy. He

41:36

of election denying fame, Mike

41:39

Lindell used ads that

41:42

basically were

41:44

all over the network offering $5

41:46

million to anyone who could go

41:48

out there and disprove his

41:50

election fraud claims. Well guess what, he caught

41:52

the car. Someone

41:55

actually disproved His claims

41:57

and now he's doing the backstroke

41:59

and trying. They get a just to get him

42:01

off the hook. I'm. What's

42:03

wrong here? A hand in hand and what

42:05

does that say? That He thought he could

42:07

actually get away with the big lie like

42:09

that and in part of it is that

42:11

See got high on his own supply minute

42:13

there was a have a d bleeds to

42:15

degree that sea foods and he could manifest

42:17

as to enough resources and why wouldn't you

42:19

believe that he was spending. He was fox

42:21

a single largest advertiser for years, and a

42:23

result of that resisting force of Will See

42:25

was able to push all kinds of nonsensical

42:27

conspiracies into Connery, not just into force them

42:29

to the right wing echo chamber. so he

42:31

had have a track record of using. His money

42:34

and resources to manifest false narrative into reality. and

42:36

Trump was a conduit for that. So in this

42:38

instance he gets up and says nobody can prove

42:40

me wrong Five million dollars and he just assumes

42:42

that he can bluster and might as well. My

42:44

my, because right with the way through it lowest

42:46

take A Lawless and the Stolen Dell. And

42:51

a medieval down a barrier just attracted me

42:53

from a rubber of but i multi mill

42:55

I want to go on his. We have

42:57

to get rid of the electronic voting machines

43:00

that wrote a paper ballots and I do

43:02

want to see see my pillow my pillow

43:04

face all of you have we put our

43:07

bathrobes on sales Hundred percent us supreme at.

43:11

The Grifters always all it is. it is. no

43:13

matter how bad is it. Sad that A Drift admits

43:15

that seems to be the end game at the

43:17

end of the day. that's you know. I got this

43:19

audience and I'm gonna lie to them and they're going

43:22

to give me to any part of what's happening

43:24

is because the As A Book is what we talk

43:26

about, only become increasingly less commercially viable because it seem

43:28

as if they had to become a closed system just

43:30

like else zones rights. He tells people that there's

43:32

all this estrogen of the water and you have to

43:35

buy these eye drops to put into drinks. The tix

43:37

the as to that of it as a closed

43:39

system and the rest of the right wing media is

43:41

following. Suit windows as part of Apple's was

43:43

a yeah one. one part of it

43:45

might. I really appreciate think. Overall I

43:47

really appreciated Angelo Thera Zone. Thank you

43:49

so much for that. doesn't have for

43:51

me. This is all in on this

43:54

Saturday or this Thursday. Rather light on

43:56

Michael Steele. in for Chris Hayes. I'll

43:58

be back here as a Pm. Morrow

44:00

nice and then back on Msnbc for

44:02

the weekend at eight Am on Saturday

44:05

and Sunday with my cohost. The lease

44:07

Human in Days and someones and as

44:09

Thousand Tax Act knows, you don't look

44:11

forward to taxes. Tax Act doesn't even

44:14

look forward to Taxes and Tax Act

44:16

As a tax software company specifically Tax

44:18

Act whole thing is accepted. Things over.

44:21

Maybe Tax Act would end up teaching

44:23

kindergarten or leading fly fishing tours, but

44:25

that's a different story for a different

44:28

so. why don't we just agree that

44:30

taxes aren't fun, but you still have

44:32

to do them. Tax filing software can

44:34

help you do that.