0:00

Tonight on All

0:03

In. I actually called him after you guys reported something.

0:05

I said, did I hit somebody? Chaos

0:08

and violence on the Hill. It

0:10

was a clean shot to the kidneys and I turned

0:12

back and there was Kevin. As

0:14

the MAGA Congress keeps sprawling. You

0:18

look like a smurf here just going

0:20

around and all this stuff. And the Republican

0:22

frontrunner keeps advertising fascism.

0:25

I am not going to comment on candidates

0:28

and their campaign messaging. Tonight, what

0:30

on earth is going on here? His

0:33

statements are fiction at best. Fiction?

0:35

I read them. What? Answer

0:38

the question, please. Then

0:40

an emergency hearing for a protective order

0:42

in Georgia as witness videos

0:45

keep leaking.

0:46

He said the boss

0:48

is not going to leave under any circumstances. We

0:50

are just going to stay in power. And

0:52

the incredible scene from the march in Washington. As

0:55

the calls to rescue hostages grows

0:57

and the destruction in Gaza continues.

1:00

When All In starts right now.

1:07

Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. It

1:09

was a chaotic and oddly violent day

1:12

on Capitol Hill. Where Republicans' dysfunction,

1:14

stunts and anger are becoming more and more extreme. Now,

1:17

ironically,

1:18

this all happened amidst what should be a real

1:21

success for House Republicans. Their

1:23

new speaker, Mike Johnson, Louisiana, just

1:25

managed to pass a continuing resolution

1:28

funding the government until early next

1:30

year. That avoids a looming shutdown.

1:33

That's good, you'd think.

1:34

But crucially, more Democrats

1:37

voted for that measure than members

1:39

of Johnson's own party. As Jake Sherman

1:41

of Punchbowl News put it, Democrats saved

1:43

him. Dangerous territory for Republican

1:46

speaker, see McCarthy, comma, Kevin.

1:49

Mike Johnson learned pretty quickly the

1:51

lesson that the only way to keep the government functioning, something

1:54

we've been saying throughout, right, is

1:56

to basically ignore part of his own caucus

1:58

and to work with Democrats.

2:00

And that decision today, and the kind

2:02

of oddly anticlimactic vote

2:04

in Congress along the lines we all knew it would

2:06

happen, that may have something to do with

2:09

the rage that emerged all over

2:11

Capitol Hill today in an environment that Speaker

2:13

Johnson himself described as a quote, pressure

2:15

cooker. And the first and most

2:17

notable incident involved Mike Johnson's

2:20

predecessor. Remember that guy? That's the former

2:22

Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, turfed out over

2:25

a month ago. This morning,

2:27

in clear view of at least one report, McCarthy

2:31

appears to have assaulted a

2:33

member of his own GOP conference. NPR

2:36

congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales

2:39

posted this firsthand account, quote, have

2:41

never seen this on Capitol Hill while

2:44

talking to Congressman Tim Burchette

2:46

after the Republican conference meeting. Former

2:48

Speaker McCarthy walked by with his detail

2:51

and McCarthy shoved Burchette. Burchette

2:54

launched, launched towards me. I

2:57

thought it was a joke. It was not. And

2:59

a chase ensued. Grisales

3:01

also recorded the audio of the interaction, which

3:03

I'm going to play you in full. Before I do

3:05

that, a warning. All of the clips,

3:08

lowlights that are going to play you from the Hill today are

3:10

just so, so cringy.

3:13

There, you're going to want to turn away at

3:16

first, but it's also just such

3:18

a wild window. And what's going on there? I

3:20

think you will not want to take your eyes and ears off

3:22

them. So this is what happened when Kevin

3:24

McCarthy exited that meeting and encountered

3:26

Tim Burchette of Tennessee in the hallway.

3:30

Yeah,

3:31

I think it went all right. Sorry,

3:37

Kevin. Didn't

3:39

mean to help. Why'd you elbow me in the back,

3:41

Kevin? Hey,

3:43

Kevin, you got any guts? Jerk.

3:48

No. No. No.

3:51

I'm going to talk to the answer. I didn't know. You

3:54

think?

4:02

What kind of

4:05

chicken move is that? You're

4:15

pathetic, man. You are so pathetic.

4:20

What a jerk. You

4:25

need security, Gavin. You're

4:29

a good

4:30

guy. Short

4:34

while later, Burchitt

4:37

explained that what happened in more detail, telling

4:39

reporters he believed the assault was intentional.

4:43

I was staying in the Hollywood interview

4:46

with her, and Kevin and Kirk, he walked by,

4:48

he elbowed me and the kidneys, and

4:50

he walked by. And

4:53

I kind of called me off guard and he

4:56

didn't get shot. I shot a kid and

4:58

it was a little different than anywhere

5:00

else. And so I moved forward. I

5:04

fell forward. I understand on purpose, man, what

5:06

purpose was it? 435 members

5:11

of Congress. I remember when he

5:13

did it. I remember

5:15

when he called me out. He

5:18

didn't see any cameras. He didn't think he'd actually

5:21

pay attention. Now,

5:24

for his part, McCarthy denied the whole thing, claiming

5:27

it was a tight area where they may have bumped

5:29

shoulders by accident. Did

5:31

you elbow him? Okay. No, I did not

5:33

elbow him. No, I would not elbow him. I would not

5:35

hit him in the kidney. HC5, you're

5:37

all down there, right? Not a very big hallway. So

5:40

I'm walking out. You could talk to Bruce

5:42

Westman. Because I should call him after you guys are 47.

5:45

Did I hit somebody? Bruce

5:47

Westman, I walk it out. I guess a

5:50

reporter was interviewing Burchard or something.

5:52

I guess our shoulders hit because Burchard runs up to me after. I didn't

5:54

know what he was talking about. So before his accident, I

5:56

did not run and hit the guy. I didn't hit

5:59

him. He punched him.

5:59

shooting things like that. He didn't shut up. No.

6:03

But reporters who witnessed that said it looked like there was plenty of

6:05

room for you to walk and that you intentionally hit

6:07

him. There is, okay, not a place.

6:09

Show me a reporter who saw that. Ask Bruce

6:11

Westerman. Okay, well ask Bruce Westerman. No, I did not go

6:14

up. If

6:16

I would hit somebody, they would know I did. He

6:18

said he was in pain. Oh,

6:21

come on now. Three

6:24

cents. Okay. Now, that

6:26

explanation was met with quite a bit of skepticism, especially

6:29

in light of the recent accusation by former

6:31

Republican Congressman Adam Kinziger that

6:33

McCarthy shoved him on two occasions.

6:36

Just take a second to think about how insane

6:38

this is. Ted McCarthy is alleged

6:41

to and in view of a reporter appears

6:43

to have like elbowed

6:46

in the kidney a colleague he

6:48

was mad at. That is

6:51

a wild thing to do. A grown man

6:54

in a workplace. Can

6:56

you imagine doing that in your place of work? Never.

7:00

Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida never wanted to see

7:02

a news cycle go by without joining it.

7:05

File this request for a House Ethics Committee investigation

7:08

into kidney punchgate today.

7:12

Then on the other side of Capitol Hill, we're

7:14

not done here.

7:15

We almost saw another confrontation come

7:17

to blow. This one took place in the middle of

7:20

a health education, labor and pension committee

7:22

hearing. When Republican Senator Mark

7:24

Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma brought

7:27

up his online beef with the

7:29

witness, the president of Teamsters

7:31

Labor Union, Sean O'Brien, Chairman

7:34

Bernie Sanders had to step in.

7:37

For Ted's sake, he's self-made. What

7:39

a clown.

7:40

Fraud

7:41

always has been, always

7:43

will be. Quit the

7:45

tough guy act and these Senate hearings.

7:48

You know where to find me. Any place,

7:50

any time, cowboy. So

7:54

this is a time, this is a place. You

7:56

want to run your mouth. We can be two consenting

7:58

adults. We can finish it here. Okay, that's fine.

8:00

Perfect. You want to do it now? I'd love to do it right

8:03

now. Well, stand your butt up, Dan. You stand your butt

8:05

up. Oh, hold on. Oh, stop it. Is

8:07

that your solution? I'll be called. Sit down.

8:09

Sit down, Eric. Sit down. Okay. You don't know you're a United

8:12

States senator. Sit down. Okay. Sit

8:14

down, please. You're

8:16

a United States senator. Sit

8:20

down. Sit down. You're a United States senator. That

8:23

senator, by the way, former mixed martial arts fighter,

8:25

refused to back down. He kept trying

8:28

to set a place and time for

8:30

the physical altercation between the two men.

8:32

You said anytime,

8:35

any place. What's your question? Accept

8:37

the challenge. What challenge? You

8:39

said anytime, any place. I'm accepting yours. So why

8:41

don't you come back? What challenge? April 30th.

8:44

How about we do it for a charity at

8:46

the Smoking Guns and Tulsa Oklahoma? What

8:49

could we do about physical confrontations

8:51

here? You want to fight me? What do you say by anytime,

8:53

any place? Let's have coffee. Discuss our differences.

8:57

Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Well, let's say I don't have coffee. Let's

8:59

do it. All right. I'd love to. It's funny how you're

9:01

back. Okay. I don't back on anything. You did.

9:03

The other one. You're a 100th senator. It

9:06

should be the most influential people in this country

9:08

making changes. You're focused

9:09

on. Okay. You're focused

9:11

on debate. That's not even relevant. You're

9:13

an embarrassed.

9:15

When he was asked about the wisdom of using violence

9:18

to solve the dispute, Mullen pointed into the long

9:20

history of fighting in the nation's capital.

9:23

Yeah, but what about, I mean, just the idea that fighting

9:26

as a way to solve a problem. Is that kind

9:28

of, are you concerned that that's the way

9:30

the conversation is happening here on Capitol Hill? People

9:33

have been fighting for a long time. I mean, go back

9:35

to the 1800s, they said canines. It was

9:37

legal to do duels. If you have a

9:39

difference, you have a difference. I didn't start it. I

9:41

didn't tweet at him. I didn't go after him. I have no

9:43

beef with a guy. I mean, I don't even

9:45

know the last time I've gotten a street fight. I used to get paid

9:47

to fight. I'm not, I'm not looking at what I

9:49

have. What victory is it for me to beat

9:52

up O'Brien? That would be

9:54

a shock, right? But

9:56

he said it and I just simply

9:59

responded. But if he wants to call it off and we

10:01

just go have a cup of coffee, fine, let's say I don't have a cup of coffee.

10:04

I have no part fill in. It's not personal to me.

10:06

He just challenged me and I accepted the challenge. To

10:09

be clear, Mullen is not wrong about the history

10:11

of violence on the House floor. There's an

10:13

incredible book about this came out a few years ago, but the

10:15

caning he referred to, which is the infamous

10:18

caning of Charles Sumner, the abolitionist

10:20

senator from Massachusetts who was beaten

10:23

near death by a pro-slavery

10:26

advocate from the House on the floor of the Senate

10:29

is widely considered to be like the turning

10:31

point of no return past

10:33

which a war between the states and the

10:36

Civil War was inevitable.

10:38

Believe it or not,

10:40

what I played you there with Mark Wayne

10:42

Mullen and Sean O'Brien was not even

10:45

the only hearing where we saw

10:47

a Republican member of Congress up

10:49

on the day his microphone explode today. No,

10:51

there's another one all same day. I'm just

10:53

giving you today's recap, okay?

10:55

This Tuesday, House Oversight Committee

10:58

chairman James Comer could not contain his

11:00

anger when he was confronted by Democratic

11:03

Congressman Jared Moskowitz about a report

11:05

that Comer made a $200,000

11:08

business deal with his brother. Now that

11:10

comes amidst Comer's accusations about President

11:12

Biden's business dealing with his own brother James

11:15

when crucially Biden was out

11:17

of office.

11:20

Ever loan my brother money, don't

11:23

have an LLC, but

11:26

you and Goldman who is Mr.

11:28

Trust Fund continue to

11:30

try to— Proclaiming my time. No, I'm

11:32

not going to give you your time back. We can stop

11:34

the clock. You all continue

11:37

to—you look like a smurf here just going

11:40

around and all this stuff. Now look— Mr.

11:42

Chairman, you have— No, no, I want to say something. No,

11:44

no, hold on. If we're not on time, we can— You just

11:46

disinformated. You dispelled. You dispelled.

11:49

You discomended something. You're

11:51

doing stuff with your brother. The American

11:53

people have the same question. Why should they

11:55

believe you? Why should they believe you? Why should they believe

11:57

you? Because there's a different rule—

12:00

for the president, there's a different rule for you. Why

12:02

didn't they believe what you're saying, Mr. Chairman?

12:04

Why? Now, all

12:07

this is kind of the ridiculousness

12:09

we come to expect from Republican members

12:11

of this Congress. On

12:13

a deeper level, though, these incidents really highlight the fact

12:15

that the Republican Party, congressional

12:18

Republican Party specifically, don't have really

12:20

unifying governing vision. There's

12:23

no projects they're engaged

12:25

in other than like being the praetorian

12:28

guard for Donald Trump's takeover

12:31

of the US government. But there's no project they're

12:33

doing together. There's nothing that really binds them together.

12:35

Crucially also, this is a wonder that

12:38

it is the party whose de facto leader endorses,

12:41

cultivates political violence, the rhetoric that

12:43

led to a violent coup on the Capitol. He

12:46

makes like cute jokes about

12:48

it when Nancy Pelosi's husband

12:50

gets savagely assaulted. That's like a

12:52

punchline for him.

12:54

That's the political movement that they're part of.

12:57

So it's disconcerting to see members

12:59

of that party actually assaulting

13:02

apparently other members of Congress less than three

13:04

years later. Joining

13:06

me now is Congressman Jared Moskowitz, Democrat of Florida

13:09

and member of the Oversight Committee. You

13:11

know, I got to say, like I've

13:13

covered Congress for a few decades.

13:16

I've been in a lot of congressional hearings. There's like always

13:18

a fair amount of posturing and performance.

13:21

That's just, you

13:23

know, that's politics. It's fine. It's partly

13:25

showmanship. It does seem like weirdly

13:27

more unhinged over there than usual. Is that

13:31

a correct perception? Thanks,

13:35

Chris. Thanks for having me. Yeah, no, that's a pretty

13:37

good observation. It's been

13:40

going on for the last 10 months. Obviously,

13:42

it's devolved since January 6th. It's devolved

13:45

since Donald Trump continues to

13:47

lower the bar day in and day

13:49

out. And they repeat it. It's

13:51

continued behavior. I mean, listen,

13:55

if the chairman is listening, I think

13:57

he needs a mental health day. You

14:00

know, he just, you know,

14:02

they have to spin the skin as these Republicans,

14:04

they like to dish it out. But man, they

14:06

just cannot take it. You know, he's

14:08

been going on TV day in and day out

14:10

talking about the brother and the president

14:13

and they do business together when it wasn't an office, by

14:15

the way. And as soon as there's an article written

14:18

that the chairman is doing the exact same thing, all

14:20

I did was ask the chairman to explain it. And

14:23

he just totally lost it. I needed Bernie

14:25

Sanders to be like, sit down Mr. Chairman,

14:28

you know, and put him in

14:30

his seat. But

14:32

yeah, look, you saw it. I mean, he's been running

14:34

hearings all year. His own

14:36

witnesses, you know, have

14:38

said that there's nothing there on Joe Biden, there's

14:41

nothing for impeachment. And yet they want to

14:43

continue this day in and day out.

14:45

So I'm glad the chairman exposed himself today.

14:47

Well, it also feels like this impeachment

14:50

push again, to the extent there's a unifying project,

14:52

it's to get Donald Trump elected. I think that

14:55

is fair to say. And they're doing everything they can to do

14:57

that. And one of the things they want to do is impeach

14:59

or sully Joe Biden to that end.

15:02

I did sort of see some fascinating reporting that in

15:04

a meeting with Republican House

15:07

moderates, which is to say frontline members who are in Biden

15:09

districts, that Mike Johnson was open to their

15:11

argument that because Biden's number polling

15:13

numbers weren't as strong, there was less need

15:16

to impeach Joe Biden, which seemed to me like a

15:18

little bit of a tell. Well,

15:21

they don't have the votes. So first of all, they don't have the

15:23

votes for impeachment. If they had the votes for impeachment,

15:26

they would have called impeachment. Don't think for a second

15:28

that Donald Trump doesn't want Joe Biden

15:31

impeached. Donald Trump has two impeachments.

15:33

He had 50% of all impeachments

15:35

in American history. He has four indictments.

15:38

He has 100% of all the presidential

15:40

indictments. Okay. It federal

15:42

indictments. And so, you know, at the end of the day, they'd

15:45

love to run the score up on Joe Biden

15:47

falsely, but they don't have the votes. So

15:49

now they're coming up with this argument, well, we'll

15:51

continue to prosecute it in the media

15:54

with all the misinformation they're

15:56

putting out. And Comer goes on TV

15:58

every day as the... chief propagandist

16:01

for Donald Trump and all this Joe Biden

16:03

stuff. And so that's their strategy

16:05

right now because they don't have the votes. And so, look, Marjorie

16:08

Taylor Greene tries to impeach my orchids. They didn't

16:10

have the votes for that. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene filed

16:13

articles of impeachment the very first week

16:15

Joe Biden was in office. Right. And

16:18

so, you know, it just goes to show you

16:20

how disarray they are in because

16:23

all day, every day they go on TV and they

16:25

sell the American people, they sell that echo chamber

16:28

that Joe Biden should be impeached, but they don't have

16:30

the votes. And it's

16:32

interesting too, because it's on the day that they don't

16:34

have the votes along party line

16:37

to keep the government funded. Right. Like when

16:39

you look at what are the substance things that Congress has to

16:41

do? What's the number one power the article one branch

16:43

of Congress has in the US constitution, the power

16:45

of the purse funding the government. That's its primary

16:48

central power in this whole thing. Right. You

16:51

passed, you know, basically a clean

16:53

CR day, continuing resolution without any

16:55

kind of crazy right wing poison pills,

16:57

as Democrats had asked, as had been worked out between

16:59

Joe Biden, Kevin McCarthy and Senate leadership.

17:02

Right. You passed it today with

17:05

more democratic votes and Republican votes. It's like,

17:07

no wonder they're so frustrated. That's the

17:10

one thing that is actually the thing of governing

17:12

the country. Like they, A, don't seem to have interest

17:14

in and B, don't have the party line votes

17:16

to unilaterally drive

17:19

the way they want to. Look,

17:22

they're great at being in the minority and they're doing everything

17:24

they can do to get back there. Back there. Okay. You know,

17:26

they just want to be the, yeah, they want, they want to be

17:29

the party of no. Uh,

17:32

and, and they're showing how, how

17:34

good they can be, uh, at being the party of no. I mean,

17:37

literally what speaker Johnson did today

17:39

is exactly what Kevin McCarthy did just a couple of weeks

17:41

ago and they filed a motion to vacate. So I don't know

17:44

the, is the house freedom caucus now going to file a motion

17:46

to vacate by the way, the

17:48

house freedom caucus. By the way, the house freedom caucus literally

17:51

asked for this latter approach to the CR

17:54

speaker. Johnson said, fine, I'll give

17:56

it to you. And they go out and 80 of

17:58

them vote against it. And so they

18:01

cannot govern without the Democrats. I

18:03

mean, that is crystal clear. They

18:05

can't solve the debt ceiling issue without the

18:08

Democrats. They can't keep the government open with

18:10

the Democrats. They can't fund Israel without

18:12

the Democrats. They can't do anything

18:14

without the Democrats. And so here's the good news.

18:17

The good news is in 12 months, they're gonna

18:19

have a wonderful opportunity to do

18:21

a lot with the Democrats in the House when

18:23

they're back in the minority. You shall see

18:25

Congressman Jared Moskowitz. Thank you very much, sir. Thanks,

18:29

Chris. Coming up, Donald Trump pays

18:32

homage to the dictators of the past, the

18:34

deeply unnerving rhetoric from

18:36

the life of the Republican presidential nominee, what it means

18:38

to the state of American democracy next. Over

18:44

the last week, there have been a series of reports, credible

18:46

and well-sourced, about the unapologetically

18:49

authoritarian vision and plans

18:52

for the ex-president's potential second

18:54

term. Trump reportedly wants

18:56

to invoke the Insurrection Act on day one

18:58

of his presidency, vastly expanding his

19:00

own executive authority, also

19:02

the deployment of US military

19:05

personnel against US citizens. He

19:07

wants to purge the federal civil service of anyone

19:09

deemed insufficiently loyal to the MAGA movement.

19:12

He wants to explicitly and intentionally

19:14

weaponize the Department of Justice, get

19:17

rid of the sort of firewall between the White

19:19

House and political prosecutions, so

19:21

that he could use it to prosecute his perceived

19:23

political enemies. He is also

19:26

pledging a chilling new immigration plan

19:28

that includes mass deportations of millions upon

19:30

millions and detention camps, rounding

19:33

people up, putting them in the camps. That

19:36

sounds like a utterly paranoid

19:39

vision of a fascist dictatorship. It's

19:41

what Team Trump is telling the world it wants

19:44

to do. And Donald Trump

19:46

himself is being specific about his aims, holding

19:48

a rally on Veterans Day where he echoed the language

19:50

of Hitler and Mussolini. Quote,

19:53

we will root out the communists, Marxist fascists

19:55

and the radical left thugs that live like

19:57

vermin within the confines of our country.

20:01

Ruth Ben-Gaud is a professor of history and Italian

20:03

studies in New York University, author of the book Strong

20:05

Men from Mussolini to the present. She joins

20:07

me now. It's good to have you here. You know, certain

20:09

things you see, like if you see like a bunch of people

20:12

like

20:13

marching,

20:15

you know, in sort of like paramilitary uniforms

20:17

down the street and they're like waving a banner and they've

20:19

got some huge picture of

20:21

some leader, like you just know what you're looking

20:24

at, even if someone gave it to you from like a country where you

20:26

didn't actually know the politics.

20:28

If someone says to you, there's this political leader

20:30

who's vowing to purge the communists and

20:32

leftists who are like vermin within

20:35

the confines of the nation, you

20:37

just know immediately that's fascist

20:40

rhetoric.

20:41

Absolutely. And everything

20:43

about that speech was drawn actually

20:45

from the history of fascism because fascism

20:47

started as a decentralized

20:51

militia movement in Italy. And

20:53

in both Italy and Germany, their first

20:56

people were the nucleus with veterans

20:58

who wanted to bring the war home and

21:00

they turned their weapons and their hatred on their

21:02

own population on leftists.

21:04

And Hitler started talking about Jews as

21:06

parasites and as early

21:09

as 1920 and Mussolini actually talked

21:12

about having to kill rats

21:15

and who are bringing Bolshevism from

21:17

the east. So dehumanizing your

21:19

targets is an integral part of

21:21

fascist rhetoric.

21:22

And it's not just the rhetoric, right? There are

21:24

these sort of audacious plans,

21:26

at this point, they're plans. One of them

21:29

is to use the Insurrection Act,

21:31

which is a pretty bad law

21:33

in many ways. The US government, an

21:35

old law, his allies have begun mapping

21:38

out specific plans for using the federal government

21:40

to punish critics and opponents. Should he win a

21:42

second term, the former president naming individuals

21:44

he wants to investigate or prosecute, his

21:46

associates drafting plans to potentially invoke

21:49

the Insurrection Act on his first day in office

21:51

to allow him to deploy the military

21:53

against civil demonstrations?

21:55

Yeah, this is all the authoritarian playbook.

21:58

And as you know, Chris, I'm going to start with you.

21:59

I've been writing about Trump and warning people

22:02

since 2016. And

22:04

my book Strongman, he's in it. He's

22:06

at the end of a century of authoritarian

22:09

history that starts with Mussolini. And

22:11

so all of these things he wants to do

22:13

are from some chapter of that

22:16

long history. Yeah.

22:18

And he's always been honest about how much he admired. He talks

22:20

about Xi Jinping in China. He

22:22

likes that model much better. Like he's always

22:24

contemptuous democracy. He likes Strongman. He

22:28

likes North Korea as a model of

22:30

government. He's not shy about this. Here's

22:32

my question for you. It seems to me pretty

22:34

clear that a lot of this this reporting

22:36

is coming from Trump's people. And there's

22:39

a little bit of it has a kind of like braggadocious

22:42

feel to it like a sigh of like you lived

22:44

you're going to say you're first up against the wall

22:46

when he gets reelected. And I'm

22:48

balancing the desire to take seriously

22:51

these plans, which are deeply unnerving and

22:53

un-American and also feeling like

22:55

they're trying to make

22:57

themselves seem scary. Yeah.

23:00

But that's what fascists do, too. And

23:02

in all of my research, every time

23:05

these people come to power or before they

23:07

come to power, when they come on the scene, they

23:09

tell us who they are and what they're going to do.

23:12

And people don't want to listen. Perhaps

23:15

it's too upsetting. They don't want to take them seriously.

23:17

So people thought Mussolini was just some

23:20

kind of like, you know, blusterer.

23:23

And we take them we don't take them

23:25

seriously at our peril. And often it's when

23:27

it's too late. People wake up

23:30

and say, oh, I should have listened when

23:32

Trump said he could shoot someone and

23:34

not lose any followers in January 2016. Back

23:38

then, he was telling us he was sympathetic

23:40

to violence, capable of violence personally,

23:42

and he would be loved for

23:44

all of this. And he is loved

23:47

for this. And he's been trying to reeducate

23:50

Americans since 2016 to feel that violence

23:54

is patriotic and justified.

23:56

And that's now he's been very successful with the narrative

23:58

of January 6th.

23:59

Yes. And of course. we have to be clear here that like

24:02

to the degree this was a more theoretical

24:04

conversation before January 6th,

24:07

it's not one after, right? I mean like this

24:09

debate about like where does he fit in this line? Like he

24:12

really did try a coup. He really did whip up

24:14

a violent mob and the Capitol tried to

24:16

cop to try to sack it.

24:18

He really did try to install

24:20

himself against the will of the people. So all

24:22

of this conversation, which you and I have talked about since 2016,

24:26

post January 6th when he's saying I'm going to pardon them and he signed

24:28

the backpacks of people, that

24:30

alone tells you what the intention

24:32

is. Absolutely. And by the way, Mussolini

24:35

was the first but not the last authoritarian

24:37

to pardon the thugs who helped

24:39

him get to power because if you're having

24:41

an autocratic government, you need lawless

24:44

people and criminals in your ranks. And

24:46

so pardoning not only indents people to

24:48

you and they need to have people loyal

24:50

to them, but it frees up the law,

24:53

the worst elements in society for government

24:55

service. Pinochet in Chile,

24:57

the dictator, he also built pardoned human

25:00

rights abusers. So when Trump started talking about

25:02

pardons, I was like, oh, that's checking off

25:04

the list.

25:05

Yeah. Thank you so much for joining

25:07

us. I appreciate it. Still

25:09

had the newest evidence that Donald Trump never intended

25:12

to leave the White House.

25:14

I said to him, I thought that

25:16

the

25:18

claims and the ability

25:20

to challenge the election

25:22

results was essentially over because he said

25:25

to me, and I kind of excited to, well, we

25:27

don't care. And we're not going to leave.

25:30

The latest on the leaked testimony that triggered an emergency

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27:04

There are leaked tapes of all four of the

27:07

original co-defendants in Donald Trump's RICO

27:09

trial who pled guilty this fall talking

27:11

to prosecutors from Fulton County, Georgia as

27:14

part of those plea agreements. Some

27:16

of the interviews were first obtained by ABC News

27:18

later by The Washington Post. Former

27:20

Trump attorney Jenna Ellis talked about a conversation

27:23

she had with Trump advisor Dan

27:25

Scavino in December 2020. And

27:28

attorney Sidney Powell recalled what some of

27:30

Trump's top White House staff told

27:32

the then president that same month. I

27:36

emphasized him. I thought that the

27:39

claims and the ability

27:41

to challenge the election

27:44

results was essentially over because he said

27:46

to me and I was kind of excited to, well, we

27:48

don't care and we're not going to leave. And

27:51

I said, what do you mean? And he said, well,

27:53

the boss meeting was a Trump and everyone

27:55

understood the boss. That's

27:57

what we all call him. that

28:00

the bus is not going to leave

28:02

under any circumstances. We are just going to stay

28:04

in power.

28:05

And I said to him, well,

28:06

it doesn't work that way, he realized,

28:08

and he said, we don't care. Ms. Powell, were you ever

28:10

around when someone, anyone,

28:14

told Donald

28:16

Trump that he had lost the election? Oh, yeah.

28:19

Who?

28:20

Pat Cipollone, Eric Kirschman,

28:22

Derek Lyons, all thought he'd lost.

28:24

What was President Trump's

28:27

reaction when, I

28:29

guess this cadre of advisors would say,

28:31

you lost. It

28:33

was like, well, they

28:36

would say that and then they'd walk out. And

28:38

he'd go, see, this is what I deal with all

28:40

the women. Today, Fulton

28:43

County District Attorney, Fonny Willis denied

28:45

that her office had anything to do with the leaked tapes, which

28:47

had been turned over to some of the other defendants

28:49

as part of the discovery process.

28:52

My team and the

28:54

particular case that those got out, we had already

28:56

filed to have a protective order

28:58

where discovery in the case would not

29:00

get out. So surprising,

29:03

no, disappointing, yes. In

29:05

fact,

29:05

today from here, I made

29:08

sure I wasn't late for this event, but I was with

29:10

my team making sure that an emergency motion

29:13

got filed so that that motion we had already filed

29:16

gets heard immediately, because

29:18

it, I think it's, I'm

29:20

not happy that it was released.

29:23

D.A. Willis also renewed her motion for protective

29:26

order today, as she alluded to there, saying, the release

29:28

of these confidential video recordings is clearly

29:30

intended to intimidate witnesses in this

29:32

case. A hearing on that filing

29:35

for protective order now scheduled for tomorrow, or

29:37

take a look at what it all means for the case against Donald

29:39

Trump and the potential cooperation

29:41

of other witnesses with MSNBC legal

29:43

analyst, Lisa Rubin, next.

29:48

What was President Trump's

29:51

reaction when, I guess

29:53

this cadre of advisors wouldn't say,

29:55

you lost? It

29:57

was like, well, they... He

30:00

would say that and then they'd walk out and

30:02

he'd go, see, this is what I deal with all of

30:04

them. Former Trump

30:06

attorney Sidney Powell is one of the four former

30:09

defendants in the Georgia Rico case who have

30:11

already pleaded guilty and

30:13

he spoke to prosecutors as part of their plea

30:16

agreements. The Washington Post obtained

30:18

tapes of all four, including attorney

30:20

Kenneth Chesbrough and reports that

30:22

his statement of prosecutors could provide evidence that

30:24

Trump was aware of the fake elector

30:26

plan. Chesbrough disclosed that he previously

30:29

unreported White House meeting, he briefed Trump

30:31

on election challenges in Arizona and summarized

30:34

a memo in which he offered advice on assembling

30:36

alternate slates of electors, key

30:38

battlegrounds to cast ballots for Trump despite

30:41

Biden's victories in those states. Joining

30:43

me now is MSNBC legal analyst Lisa

30:46

Rubin. Let's start on that because as someone

30:48

who has spent a lot of time on the facts around January

30:50

6th, lead up to it, the coup, I

30:53

think, and I might be wrong because it's an enormous

30:56

amount of information. We have never had

30:58

Chesbrough in the room with Donald Trump directly

31:01

telling him anything until

31:03

that.

31:04

That's correct. And that for me was the biggest

31:06

revelation of all of this, that

31:09

Chesbrough was in the room with Trump. The date

31:11

of the meeting is, of course, two days after

31:14

all of the electors, fake and otherwise,

31:17

are convening. So that work is

31:19

already behind Chesbrough at that point. He's

31:21

already directed everything

31:23

from the past releases to the forms

31:26

that these fake electors are supposed to assign to

31:28

each of the different states. But the other

31:30

thing I found so interesting was not only was he

31:32

in the room with Trump, but when asked who

31:34

he coordinated his activities with, who was

31:36

the person he said he communicated with the most?

31:39

It's not Rudy. It's not John Eastman. It's

31:42

Boris. Right. And you

31:44

and I have talked many times about the fact that Boris

31:46

has really escaped being a central

31:48

figure here. He's not charged in the Fulton

31:50

County indictment. He is allegedly

31:53

one of the co-conspirators in the D.C. federal

31:55

election interference case, but reported only

31:57

by the New York Times.

31:59

Unconfirmed

32:01

by NBC News and any

32:03

other outlet as far as I know. So,

32:05

Chesbrough is basically putting Boris

32:08

at the center as

32:10

the connective tissue between

32:13

the functionaries who are carrying out the fake-elector

32:15

plot and Trump is also

32:18

a really interesting feature of the

32:20

profit that he gave to Fulton County investigators.

32:22

And this is of course Boris Epstein who is a, I

32:25

guess technically is an attorney, right? He's

32:27

a lawyer.

32:27

He is a attorney who is apparently functioning

32:29

as sort of a coordinating counsel.

32:31

Yes, I'm going to ask about who's quarterbacking

32:33

this. Chesbrough said, oh, that was Boris,

32:36

which was interesting. Jenna Ellis also,

32:38

I mean, nothing quite new

32:40

there, although I think it probably

32:42

helps in pushing back on an advice of counsel

32:44

defense maybe.

32:47

Yeah, I think it, well, to what extent

32:49

Jenna Ellis said those things

32:52

that she said to Scavino to Trump,

32:55

I think it still remains to be seen.

32:57

However, the other thing that really struck

32:59

me about that conversation that Jenna Ellis says

33:02

took place on December 19th. He's not leaving.

33:04

That he's not leaving and that the

33:06

we in terms of the people backing up

33:09

the boss included not only Scavino

33:11

but Meadows. That was the tail end of

33:13

that statement. Yep. Right. But

33:16

the other thing that strikes me about it is Jenna Ellis's behavior

33:19

after that date and evidenced by her

33:21

own tweets is not reflective of a person

33:23

who thought that Trump should leave office

33:26

gracefully. Rather, she's urging

33:28

people and urging Donald Trump himself

33:30

not to concede the election. Right? On

33:33

December 28th, she's putting pressure.

33:35

December 28th, 2020, President Trump should never concede the election.

33:37

January 5th, one day before the 6th, more than 100 state

33:39

legislators asked Pence to delay certification

33:42

electoral votes. Right.

33:43

So if this is the same Jenna Ellis who

33:45

allegedly told Dan Scavino, what

33:47

do you mean he's not leaving? That's

33:49

not the way it's supposed to work. That's not

33:51

the way loyal Jenna Ellis was

33:53

behaving in public as evidenced

33:56

by her social media posts. And finally, in

33:58

terms of, I mean, it was, it was wild.

33:59

to get these videos. I don't think anyone

34:02

was expecting it. Clearly, Fannie Will is not happy.

34:04

Protective order, there's an addendum to it in the end

34:06

which seems to flag exactly where

34:09

they came from.

34:10

Yes, and you know Harrison Floyd's lawyer

34:12

is taking responsibility in an email

34:14

responding to Steve Saddle, the former

34:17

president's lawyer, basically saying, everybody

34:19

should tell us on the record whether they did

34:21

this or not. It didn't come from us. We're concerned

34:24

about it. DA's office says, definitely

34:26

didn't come from us. And then

34:28

Harrison Floyd's lawyer, it came from Harrison Floyd's team.

34:31

And then they claiming it's a typo. I'm not really

34:33

sure but why Harrison Floyd benefits from this?

34:36

Not clear to me. He's an agent of chaos. We should

34:38

stay focused on

34:39

him. He was the PR

34:41

rep who was involved in one of the more bizarre

34:44

subplots in all this, which was the menacing

34:47

emissary sent to Ruby Freeman and Shay

34:49

Moss to try to convince them to

34:51

lie about their involvement

34:54

and cop to some big election stealing

34:56

threat in a police officers, in

34:59

a police precinct down in Georgia. Truly a bizarre

35:01

part of this. And tragic. And tragic. And he's

35:03

also one of the indicted co-defendants here.

35:06

Lisa Rubin is always a pleasure. Thank you. Still

35:08

to come as American politicians from both parties

35:10

show support for Israel, the enduring

35:12

loss by Gazans and Israelis. Next.

35:20

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36:21

Tens

36:23

of thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of

36:25

Washington in support of Israel today, five

36:28

weeks after the deadly October 7th attacks

36:30

by Hamas. In a bipartisan

36:32

show of solidarity, both the Republican Speaker

36:34

of the House and the Democratic House Minority Leader

36:37

struck a similar tone in their remarks.

36:41

Our commitment to Israel's security

36:43

is ironclad. And

36:45

let me be clear,

36:47

Israel has an absolute right

36:49

to defend itself against

36:51

Hamas terror. Israel

36:54

will cease their counteroffensive when

36:56

Hamas ceases to be a threat to

36:58

the Jewish state.

37:02

March also featured as a speaker a prominent

37:04

Christian minister named John Hagee, whose

37:06

past statements, including one about Hitler, the Jews,

37:08

and Israel, were deemed so offensive that the late

37:11

Senator John McCain refused his endorsement

37:13

for president in 2008. March

37:15

had three main goals, according to its organizers,

37:17

to rally for Israel, to stand against

37:19

anti-Semitism, and to show support for the

37:22

hundreds of hostages still in Hamas

37:24

custody. Today, Lester Holt sat

37:26

down with family members of those hostages. One

37:29

woman recounted the story of her three-year-old

37:31

grandniece, Abigail, who is currently

37:34

being held hostage.

37:36

Abigail is the youngest of three kids. And

37:39

on the 7th of October, her mother was murdered

37:41

in their house, my niece. The

37:44

two kids that were there, a six- and 10-year-old, were

37:46

spared. We don't know how

37:48

and why, but after their mother was

37:50

murdered, they ran outside and they found their father,

37:53

who had Abigail, and they told

37:55

him what happened. And they all ran,

37:57

and Abigail was in her father's arms.

38:00

And as they ran, a terrorist shot

38:03

him and killed him, and

38:05

he fell onto Abigail. And

38:08

the kids, the six and ten-year-old,

38:10

the six-year-old covered her eyes.

38:12

She

38:12

thought she was going to be shot.

38:15

And when she took her hands down and she saw her

38:17

father was dead and she looked at this terrorist

38:20

in the eyes, and

38:22

she just ran. They ran.

38:25

Right now, the government of Qatar is helping to

38:27

broker a plan to release about 80

38:29

women and children still being held

38:32

hostage. Today, President Joe Biden

38:34

said he believes that deal is going to happen, although we

38:36

should note that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

38:38

has downplayed talk of one. Now,

38:41

this all comes as the situation in Gaza

38:43

grows ever more dire for the people that live

38:45

there. Much of northern Gaza

38:48

has been rendered uninhabitable by the

38:50

bombardment. Israeli newspaper Haaretz

38:52

reports today that entire neighborhoods had been destroyed

38:55

and that much of the region will be unlivable

38:57

for months, if not for years. Over

38:59

the last few days, tens of thousands of

39:01

Gazans have fled from the north to the south, many

39:04

of them on foot through what the Israeli military

39:06

is calling a humanitarian corridor.

39:09

They

39:09

include one mother, captured by a journalist,

39:12

pulling her two young kids in car

39:14

seats, reportedly, for more than eight

39:16

miles.

39:17

In just the last hour, the Israeli military

39:19

announced that it is right now carrying out a military

39:22

operation against Hamas at Al-Shifa

39:24

Hospital. That's a large complex

39:26

and the largest hospital in the north. It's the largest

39:28

in Gaza. Now, over the past few days, there have

39:30

been reports of multiple explosions in the hospital.

39:33

Israeli government blamed the explosions on misfired

39:35

Palestinian rockets, but an analysis from

39:37

the New York Times determined that at least three projectiles

39:40

that hit the area were in fact Israeli munitions.

39:43

Both the Israeli and the US government say

39:45

Shifa is harboring Hamas agents,

39:48

something representatives of the hospital have denied.

39:51

But now, due to a lack of power, that hospital

39:53

with about 1,500 patients has been

39:55

rendered effectively non-function.

39:58

Over the weekend, newborn infants at Shifa

39:59

were removed from incumputators and put

40:02

in an operating room that still had some power.

40:04

According

40:04

to the United Nations, there is now only one

40:07

functioning hospital in all of Northern Cows. Prior

40:10

to the attack, NBC News reporter Ross Sanchez

40:12

reported on the dire conditions at Chifa, which

40:14

also serves as a makeshift refugee camp,

40:17

with the director of hospitals saying about 7,000 people

40:20

are simply seeking shelter inside.

40:23

Without power, water, or basic medical supplies,

40:25

staff at El Chifa Hospital tell NBC

40:28

News they buried 80 people today

40:30

in a mass grave. In nearby

40:32

streets, other Palestinians lie where they

40:34

were killed, and

40:37

as fighting rages all around the hospital,

40:40

time

40:42

is running out for dozens of premature

40:44

babies whose incubators can't run

40:46

without power. How are you

40:49

caring for these little babies? Okay,

40:51

we cover them from below and

40:53

from above, so to cover them to

40:55

keep the bridge.

40:57

Still, the destruction so wide and dire that a representative

41:00

from the Gaza Health Ministry says they can no longer keep

41:02

the accurate toll of the dead. Despite

41:04

past comments to the contrary from the White House,

41:06

including the president, The Wall Street Journal recently

41:08

reported that the US and its intelligence agencies

41:10

and officials, growing confident that previously

41:13

reported death tolls from Gaza, from the Gaza

41:15

Health Ministry, which is run by Hamas, which

41:18

have topped 11,000, are largely accurate.

41:22

The sheer scope of death, misery,

41:24

and destruction over the last five weeks is

41:26

so enormous that it is utterly

41:29

impossible to process. So I

41:31

wanted to end tonight by memorializing just two

41:34

individuals, two people who lost their lives. First,

41:37

Dr. Hamam Allo, he's a renowned

41:39

Palestinian physician from SIPA Hospital. In

41:42

an interview last month, Dr. Allo made clear that

41:44

his top priority was the well-being of

41:47

his patients.

41:49

The Israeli military has dropped thousands

41:51

of pamphlets warning people where

41:53

you are in northern Gaza to

41:56

leave. Why don't

41:58

you go with your family?

41:59

And

42:03

if I go, who treats my patients? We

42:06

are not animals. We have the

42:09

right to

42:11

receive total health

42:13

care. Do you think I went to medical

42:15

school and for my postgraduate degrees

42:17

for a total of 14

42:19

years? So I think only about

42:22

my life and not my patients.

42:25

Dr. Alo was killed in an airstrike

42:27

at his family's home over the weekend along with his brother

42:29

and father. We also learned

42:31

in the last few days of the death of Vivian Silver,

42:34

an Israeli peace activist who dedicated

42:36

basically her whole life to ending violence, so

42:39

fostering a peaceful coexistence between

42:41

Palestinians in Gaza specifically

42:43

and Jews in southern Israel across the border

42:45

of that fence. Silver was initially

42:48

believed to be taken hostage in the October 7

42:50

attack. Her body was, weeks

42:53

later, found and finally identified.

42:55

Last month, her son shared his memories

42:58

of her with Ali Velshi. She

43:01

was obsessed with peace. You know,

43:04

violence was always

43:06

wrong in her mind. So

43:09

she would say now, even though

43:12

our communities are wiped out, all

43:15

my friends lost.

43:19

Either I lost my friends

43:21

or they lost their parents. She

43:24

would say we don't need more dead

43:26

babies. We need to

43:28

stop the violence now. And

43:31

we all listened to the message of peace that

43:33

Vivian Silver had for the region and

43:35

for the world.

43:37

We have common interests

43:40

and it is in all of our interests

43:42

to promote peace and

43:45

to break the decades

43:48

long paradigm that says

43:50

only war will bring

43:53

peace. We

43:55

know that's not true. Vivian

43:58

Silver, may her memory be a blessing.

44:00

That does it for All In. You can catch us every

44:02

weeknight at 8 o'clock on MSNBC. Don't forget

44:04

to like us on Facebook. That's facebook.com

44:07

slash All In with

44:08

Chris. I'm MSNBC's

44:10

Ali Velshi. A book banning epidemic is

44:12

infiltrating our classrooms with 1,500 titles

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banned last year alone. Each

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week on my podcast, Velshi Banned Book

44:20

Club, a different author joins me to discuss

44:22

their banned book, like Margaret Atwood, Laurie

44:24

Halse Anderson, and many more. Using books,

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that's how we share our wisdom, our values,

44:30

that's how we take our country to the place

44:32

it should be in. Listen to Velshi Banned Book

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Club now wherever you get your podcasts.

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All episodes available now.