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0:17

TONIGHT ON

0:19

ALL IF THE DEVASTATION THIS

0:21

VIOLENCE ACT HAS in our community

0:24

cannot be measured.

0:25

This club was

0:27

a safe

0:29

haven in our community.

0:31

Police identified victims of a mass

0:33

murder at a Colorado drag show tonight.

0:36

What we know about the shooter's motive

0:38

and why it wasn't hard to see this coming.

0:40

There was so much hate in visceral

0:43

spread about our LGBTQ communities,

0:45

especially our trans community that I

0:47

CAN'T SAY THAT THAT DIDN'T HAVE AN IMPACT

0:49

ON THIS. Reporter:

0:50

AND WHAT WE'RE LEARNING ARE THE MAN WHO JUST

0:52

Took OVER THE TRUMP INVESTIGATION Congressman

0:55

Adam Schiff on the new special counsel,

0:57

and what he expects from Kevin McCarthy? I

1:00

suspect he will do whatever merger Taylor Green

1:02

wants him to do. as primary hopefuls

1:05

gather for their first unofficial campaign

1:07

event, what could be the biggest flaw

1:09

in their plan to stop Donald Trump?

1:12

I may never again trouble. Why? Because

1:14

I want to win? But all in

1:16

starts right now.

1:22

Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes tonight.

1:24

Police have released the names of the five victims

1:26

in Saturday's shooting at Club Q.

1:29

an LGBTQ nightclub in

1:31

Colorado Springs. Daniel Aston,

1:33

Ashley Paw, Kelly Loving,

1:36

Derek

1:36

Rump, Raymond

1:37

Green Vance. Officials

1:39

say the tragedy could have been

1:41

far far worse. If not for the heroic

1:44

actions, the guy named Richard Fierro

1:46

an army veteran who was at the club with his

1:48

family taking him the drag show

1:51

at

1:51

the time of the attack. Yarrow

1:52

who served in Iraq and Afghan candidates Afghanistan

1:55

says he went into combat mode as

1:57

he rushed across the venue to successfully

2:00

disarm the shooter.

2:01

This

2:02

evening, the mayor of Colorado Springs

2:04

praised Guillermo for his service.

2:07

I

2:07

had the opportunity before I came here

2:09

today to talk to Richard Fierro,

2:12

identified as one of the two heroes

2:14

that subdued the

2:18

suspect in this case And in my

2:20

opinion, I think the opinion of everyone involved

2:22

saved a lot of lives. I have never

2:25

encountered a person who had engaged

2:27

in such heroic actions that was

2:29

so humble about it.

2:31

He simply said to me, I was trying

2:33

to protect my family.

2:36

a shooter who's in custody has been charged

2:38

with five counts of first degree murder, five

2:40

counts of bias motivated crime causing

2:42

bodily injury.

2:44

Department of Justice is also investigating

2:46

whether federal charges are warranted.

2:48

Now, this attack exists within

2:50

a number of contexts, including clearly,

2:53

the crisis of mass shootings in this country spurred

2:56

on by easy access to weapons war.

2:58

We know this shooter used in AR fifteen

3:01

style semi automatic rifle, the same

3:03

type of gun used in numerous other

3:05

deadly incidents of mass violence

3:07

and atrocities like this one. also

3:10

can't ignore the fact that this attack comes during a particularly

3:12

fraught and dangerous moment of the gay and trans

3:14

community. Here's the last

3:16

post on ClubQ's Facebook page

3:18

prior to the shooting, it was this advertisement for

3:21

an upcoming all ages drag brunch,

3:23

which was scheduled for Sunday.

3:25

the morning after the shooting. Now,

3:27

in recent months, drag events, particularly all

3:29

hayes events like that, likebranches, story

3:32

hours of public libraries. have

3:34

become a point of obsession for

3:36

right wing forces seeking to demonize LGBTQ

3:39

folks and falsely accuse them of to

3:42

indoctrinate. straight children. And

3:44

this has led to an increase in intimidation,

3:47

threats of violence. Back in June,

3:49

one example, members of the far right group, known as the

3:51

Proud Boys, stormed a drag story

3:53

hour in California where they hurled

3:56

homophobic and transphobic slurs at those

3:58

in attendance. Sheriff's office

3:59

described the right wing agitators as,

4:02

quote, extremely aggressive with a threatening

4:04

violent demeanor causing people to fear

4:06

for their safety. And just a few

4:08

weeks ago, Proud Boys talked to drag brunch

4:10

at a North Carolina Brewery with one

4:12

of the events organizers saying, quote, the press

4:14

albums were very hostile, openly harassing

4:17

patrons as they entered and exited the brewery.

4:19

They were calling them groomers, pedophiles,

4:21

and trying to intimidate everyone. the

4:24

Proud Boys came to fight. These

4:26

are just two examples. Absolutely took

4:28

the iceberg. The rights fix

4:30

station with gay and transcommunities is

4:33

becoming increasingly reckless. Earlier

4:35

this year, Florida governor Rhonda Sanders has

4:37

infamously signed into law what critics have

4:39

called the don't SAGE GABIL, WHICH PRESENTS

4:41

PREVENTS, SOME TEACHERS FROM BEING

4:43

DISCUSSING THE EXCUSTANCE OF GAY AND TRANSFOLKS

4:46

AND SOME CASES COULD FORCE

4:48

SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS TO OUT trans students.

4:51

Last month, dozens of House Republicans

4:53

introduced a national version of that

4:55

law, which is actually worse if

4:57

you'll believe it, manages to be even more draconian

5:00

than the Florida law and more reckless, wide

5:02

open. And it seems very likely

5:04

Republicans will hold a vote on that

5:06

bill when they formally retake the house

5:08

in January. And in the run up

5:10

to the midterm elections, anti trans rhetoric

5:12

in particular was constantly used

5:14

by right wing politicians, Republicans, for

5:17

all kinds of different offices, Republicans even tried

5:19

to unsuccessfully fear monger against

5:21

Michigan's referendum in shining abortion

5:23

rights, by falsely claiming the

5:25

bill would lead to the forced sterilization

5:27

of children. The

5:29

Michigan ballot proposal passed overwhelmingly.

5:32

Republicans vastly underperformed in the midterms

5:34

after going all in on anti trans

5:36

issues. That has

5:37

not stopped them. THEY ARE

5:39

STILL AT IT, TAKING ISSUE WITH

5:41

TRANS PEOPLE EXISTING AT ALL.

5:43

DONALD TRUMP DECATED A SIGNIFICANT

5:45

AMOUNT OF TIME IN HIS THIRD PRESIDENTIAL ANNOUNSEMENT

5:48

SPEECH TO ANTI TRANS BROADSIDE. THE

5:50

TRUMP HANDPICK CANDIDATE FOR SENATE AND

5:52

GEORGIA HERShell Walker

5:53

TRYING TO CLOSE OUT HIS RACE IN THE RUN

5:55

OFF is making trans women participating

5:58

in sports as one of his closing arguments.

5:59

Top issue for

6:01

Georgia voters about who you want to send to the

6:04

senate. ahead of next month's runoff election.

6:06

Howard Bauchner: And it's important to note,

6:08

however, this is not just elected officials and political

6:10

candidates. Many cases, these politicians are taking

6:12

their cues from right wing media. Those

6:14

incidents at Dragon events I mentioned a few

6:16

moments ago, they happened within the

6:18

context of conservative media personalities

6:20

fear mongering against queer folks.

6:23

New York Times and unquote, events

6:25

featuring performers in drag have received disapproving

6:27

coverage of some of the most prominent voices on the political.

6:29

Right? including the Fox News host Tucker

6:31

Carlson and Jesse Waters who frequently claim

6:33

the events are dangerous for children. Tucker

6:36

in particular seems fixated on

6:38

this antiqueer panic. In addition to

6:40

his dire tribes against drag shows, he's platformed

6:43

anti trans activists, used particularly vicious

6:45

and extreme rhetoric to attack children's

6:47

hospitals for providing Trans

6:49

Youth and Medical Care. Just as an

6:51

example in one segment of his primetime

6:53

show, he put up the faces

6:55

of a Tennessee hospital's Board of

6:57

Directors and read their names aloud

6:59

to his audience. Now in this climate,

7:01

you may not be surprised to hear that threats

7:03

against these hospitals that

7:05

have this kind of care on the rise Boston

7:07

Children's, we reported on this. Boston

7:09

Children's Hospital receiving its third

7:11

bomb threat just last week. And

7:14

again, to be clear, no one is responsible

7:17

for this weekend's horrific attack,

7:19

but the shooter himself. But as

7:21

one Colorado State legislator reminded

7:23

colleague Katie Turbot, it happened within

7:25

the context of this anti LGBTQ

7:27

hysteria. The

7:29

rhetoric, the awful visceral

7:32

rhetoric that has been spread

7:34

for years quite frankly in this

7:36

community, but also especially a lot lately

7:39

in the past election that we had just

7:41

a few days ago, even there was so

7:44

much hate and visceral spread about

7:46

our LGBTQ communities, especially our

7:48

trans community that I can't

7:50

say that that didn't have an impact on

7:52

this. Howard Bauchner: That

7:52

radically is such tragedy feeling

7:55

shocking, but sadly not

7:57

exactly surprising. Chase

7:59

Tranjos and Deputy Director for Trans Gender Justice,

8:01

the VFCU Sericate Ellis is president and

8:03

CEO of Glad, the world's largest LGBT

8:05

media advocacy organization. Both join me now.

8:07

It's great to have you both here at the table, although under

8:09

awful awful circumstances.

8:13

First of all, that there's this profound

8:15

sense of mourning. I thought that

8:18

the tributes we started to hear

8:20

about the folks that worked there and

8:22

what a amazing welcoming safe space it

8:24

was are sort of testament to what is

8:27

taken away when violence like this happens?

8:29

Howard Bauchner:

8:29

Yeah, I mean, I think this occurred

8:32

at just after midnight on Trans Day

8:34

of Remember So here we have a

8:36

day dedicated to honoring the

8:38

lives of trans people who

8:40

are killed in acts of violence. two

8:42

of the five victims are openly

8:44

trans

8:44

individuals. One

8:46

of the bartenders was a trans man

8:48

who is being described by friends

8:50

as this person who was

8:52

irreverent in his joy. And he has

8:54

a picture on his Instagram of himself

8:56

after he had top surgery celebrating

8:58

the embodiment that he felt, the very

9:00

thing that we are seeing being demonized, not

9:03

just in the right wing media, by the way, but also

9:05

in the center left media. And that is

9:07

contributing to this climate in

9:09

which people

9:09

are emboldened to enact violence on

9:11

the trans community and on the entire

9:13

LGBTQ community. Yeah. It was just a but

9:15

bartender, I was reading his Twitter feed, and

9:17

he was about how the that place saved his life. q.

9:19

Like this play I found this place. I love these

9:21

people here. This place saved my life, and

9:23

he was one of the people that was killed.

9:25

Yeah, we have

9:26

a team that's on the ground actually in

9:28

Colorado Springs. And when I'm hearing

9:30

back is that the community is just

9:32

so open and welcoming allies

9:35

and the LGBTQ community.

9:37

I want to add one more dot because I

9:39

thought you did a beautiful job of connecting

9:41

all these dots of the

9:43

story line of where this rhetoric

9:45

is coming from and the impact that it's

9:47

having. I think when you look at the

9:49

latest study that says fifty

9:51

one percent of rise

9:53

in anti LGBTQ crimes

9:56

this past year. A study

9:58

that we do at Glad shows that

9:59

seventy one percent of

10:02

the LGBTQ community in the

10:04

past year feels discriminated against.

10:06

And to the drag shows we're about to

10:08

release a report that

10:10

shows nearly a hundred and

10:12

twenty five attacks

10:14

or threats to drag

10:17

shows across this country since

10:19

June. of

10:20

this year? Of this year. I I have to say,

10:22

I mean, this is the this is the inescapable context. This is

10:24

in particular. So I wanna talk about politicians, but I

10:26

wanna talk about this for a second, Chase. Because I think it

10:28

honestly and and maybe I have naive or or

10:30

wasn't paying attention. But if you went to be in twenty

10:32

twenty and said, a

10:35

year and a half from now, a big thing

10:37

on the right is gonna be like whipping

10:39

up folks, to go outside,

10:41

drag a brunches and

10:44

scream at people. And her I I would hayes been

10:46

like, what what? It

10:48

it really I mean, It

10:50

seems I don't know. It seems

10:52

so awful, but it also seems so

10:54

strange to me. But I guess it's

10:56

not strange.

10:56

I mean, I think it's a both and

10:59

situation. I think that if you

11:01

trace the rhetoric going back to twenty sixteen and

11:03

you and I have talked about this back when we saw

11:05

the rise in anti trans bathroom bills, part

11:07

of what we were seeing was this obsession

11:10

with

11:10

anything that was gender deviance at all. And

11:12

if you go

11:12

back, you know, fifty, seventy five

11:15

years, The origin of a lot of this was in the form

11:17

of criminal cross dressing laws. And now

11:19

we're sort of back full circle where

11:21

we're criminalizing the public

11:23

expression of gender variance at

11:25

all. And so it went from bathrooms to locker

11:27

rooms to sports now

11:29

to drag and medical care. And

11:31

this idea of the sort

11:33

of enemy converting

11:36

people into these gender deviance when, of

11:38

course, we've been here all along. Yeah.

11:39

I mean, drag is probably one of the oldest

11:42

traditions in the canon that

11:44

exists and children have been exposed to it for it.

11:46

Literally, millennia, so the Ivy just has a point of

11:48

historical fact. It's like a ludicrous

11:50

obsession to be like, oh, the the the the

11:52

brave majority day.

11:52

Also, too, going back to the the sort of it's been

11:55

around forever. The laws that we're now seeing

11:57

that proposed to criminalize drag are so

11:59

broadly written that they

11:59

would criminalize

12:00

Shakespeare. Well, that yeah. Exactly. You

12:02

know, it's it's that's that's where we're

12:03

at. There's also, I think, you know, Chase and I have

12:05

talked about before, you know, I think the sense of

12:08

there's there's obviously been this focus

12:10

on trans folks and trans bodies and trans

12:12

healthcare in the bathrooms. Right? Mhmm. I do think

12:14

there was a certain set of gay

12:16

and lesbian folks,

12:18

cis folks who are like,

12:20

that's awful and I'm like with,

12:23

you know, trans

12:24

folks, but also like they you

12:26

know, we won on marriage. We

12:28

sort of had this incredibly successful

12:30

set of social and legal victories.

12:33

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE I KNOW FEEL LIKE

12:35

THAT IS AT RISK RIGHT NOW?

12:37

WELL, I WANT TO

12:39

PULL BACK ON THAT A LITTLE. WE WANT MARIA

12:41

TO QUALITY THROUGH A supreme court that

12:43

we know now is hostile. So that's on

12:45

the line. And then we've only

12:47

have employment protections.

12:50

They're kind of peace together,

12:52

state by state, and then at the federal

12:54

or through the supreme court as

12:56

well. And that's at risk as

12:58

well. So III hesitate to say

13:00

that we have a lot of protections as gay

13:02

and lesbian. Much and and

13:04

trans folks obviously have a lot

13:06

less than that even. So we

13:08

haven't been able to pass the Equality

13:10

Act. We haven't been able

13:12

yet to codify marriage

13:14

equality. We have a long way to

13:16

go. what we have had on

13:18

our side in terms of gay and lesbian.

13:20

It's an accepting society.

13:23

When nine out of ten Americans say they

13:25

know someone who's gay or lesbian,

13:27

and that they it's a family member or a

13:29

friend that makes a much more

13:31

accepting society. Three out of

13:33

ten Americans say they know someone

13:35

who's trans. So that

13:37

gap right there is where all these

13:39

politicians are filling in with the

13:41

rhetoric. And you Chase,

13:42

you wrote something after because I I had sort of written

13:44

about and said on night. You know, one of the things

13:46

I found sort of cheering honestly of that

13:49

result was I had watched

13:51

them obsess over trans folks.

13:53

During the campaign, I felt like there was somewhat

13:55

a repudiation of that at the polls like

13:57

Michigan, you know, that was this is this is gonna carry us

13:59

over. But you made the point that look, in the

14:01

places where where Republicans particularly can

14:03

hold power. Some of

14:05

the most rapidly anti trans politicians won

14:07

reelection paving the way for another year of

14:09

anti trans bills in state. slazors in a

14:11

national landscape of anti trans rhetoric and the

14:13

lead up to twenty twenty four presidential

14:15

election. And it strikes me one of the things

14:17

that's important to consider that your piece made

14:19

me think of is the extent

14:21

this is Redmi for the base it is,

14:23

but they also believe it. Like they're pursuing a

14:25

project -- Yeah. -- which

14:25

is that they think this is deviant and these

14:28

people need to be marginalized. Yeah. I

14:30

mean, absolutely. We've seen hundreds of anti

14:32

transbills introduced every

14:33

year, and in fact, more and more are

14:35

passing. We're now a situation where ALABAMA

14:38

MADE IT A FELONY TO PROVIDE

14:40

MEDICALLY SUPPORTED BY EVERY

14:42

MAJOR MEDICAL ASSOCIATION IN THE UNITED

14:44

STATES HEALTH CARE. We're in a situation

14:46

now where Texas governor Abbott, who

14:48

was reelected, had his

14:50

executive order that mandated to the

14:52

agency to investigate the

14:54

provision of this medically accepted care as child

14:56

abuse. And now coming into

14:58

twenty twenty three, Texas is very likely to

15:00

try to pass that statutory and we will

15:02

see that across the country. So we're in a situation where

15:05

these bills are passing. And of course,

15:07

people do believe it. I am personally

15:09

called a groomer every single

15:11

day. this idea that just by

15:13

existing and being visible, that we are

15:15

encouraging other people to be like us

15:17

when the reality is that our

15:19

existence and our visible existence just

15:21

like the bartender at ClubQ

15:24

helps people feel like it's

15:26

okay to be who they are.

15:27

Yeah. For sure. And I would just add

15:29

to that. But the one thing that we haven't talked

15:31

about is social

15:32

media's play in all

15:33

of this. Because that's an organizing

15:36

tool. That's where they're finding out about

15:38

the drag shows and organizing to

15:40

show up. That's where they're

15:42

building out extremism and

15:44

and grooming people, actually.

15:47

to for extremism. So

15:49

I think that we have to hold

15:51

the social media platforms accountable,

15:53

and we need government to

15:55

also hold them accountable. Chase

15:56

Strengeo, surrogate Ellis. Thank you so

15:59

much for coming down. I really, really appreciate it.

16:01

Thank you. Coming up, he's taking

16:03

over the major investigation of Donald Trump.

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Who is Jack smith, an

16:07

in-depth look at the new special counsel.

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17:11

Throughout

17:12

his career, Jack Smith has built

17:14

a reputation as an impartial

17:16

and determined prosecutor who

17:18

leads teams with energy and focus

17:21

follow the facts wherever they

17:23

lead. As

17:24

special counsel, he will

17:25

exercise independent, prosecutorial

17:28

judgment decide whether charges

17:30

should be brought. Mister Smith

17:32

is the right choice to complete these matters

17:34

in an evenhanded

17:36

and urgent manner. The

17:39

announcement of a special counsel overseeing

17:41

multiple Trump investigations was an

17:43

assignment editor's dream. Who is this

17:45

largely unknown character? this

17:47

massively compelling and important story. Of course,

17:49

The New York Times knew that. And so this weekend, we

17:51

got our answer in the form of a Jack Smith

17:54

profile reported by Charlie Savage

17:56

and Al Foyer. In the first paragraph,

17:58

the article we've read the story of

17:59

Jacksman's twenty ten appointment

18:02

to leave the public integrity unit of the justice department,

18:04

and the authority caused when he made

18:06

the decision to close a series

18:09

of investigations into several members of

18:11

Congress without charges.

18:13

Joining me now

18:13

tell us about that story. What else he found

18:15

in his profile, Washington correspondent?

18:17

Post Surprise winning journalist, Charlie Savage. Charlie's great

18:19

to have you, and this was exactly what I was

18:21

looking for. Thank you for writing it. Tell us

18:24

first that story about that decision

18:26

that you that you use in the profile?

18:29

Sure.

18:29

So at the very beginning of

18:31

the Obama administration, the

18:33

public integrity section of the

18:35

justice department was in turmoil. At the end

18:38

of two thousand and eight, it had brought a

18:40

prosecution against Ted Stevens, the Republican

18:42

senator of Alaska, who

18:44

was convicted and lost his reelection. And then

18:46

during sentencing, it turned out they

18:48

had not given the evidence evidence

18:50

that would have helped his

18:53

cause to the defense. The case collapsed.

18:56

Attorney general holder throughout the

18:58

case. The head of that section was under

19:00

investigation. He had to be reassigned. and

19:02

it was a gigantic mess. So the

19:04

head of the criminal division calls

19:06

back from Europe, Jack Smith,

19:08

who is they are prosecuting war

19:10

crimes in the Hague And then need you to

19:12

take over this this section, which

19:15

is internally, he comes back. And one of the first things he

19:17

does is he looks at all the cases that

19:19

have been pending about against

19:21

as many as eight members of Congress

19:23

of both parties for various corruption

19:26

allegations, and

19:26

he recommends closing all

19:28

of those investigations without charges.

19:31

which makes everyone think this the

19:33

this section has lost its nerve

19:36

after this disastrous Ted

19:38

Stevens. debacle.

19:40

I was then covering the justice department for the

19:42

New York Times, and I went in and interviewed him

19:44

then, not knowing, of course, he would now be

19:46

in this role a decade later and

19:48

say, what are you doing? You close all these

19:51

investigations. People say you guys

19:53

had lost your nerve, and he denied it. He said,

19:55

look, one of my first things I needed to

19:57

do was look at everything that

19:59

was pending that I inherited, if

20:02

stuff was stale. The

20:04

facts weren't there. It was just lingering. It's not

20:06

fair to keep it going. We had to shut it down and make

20:08

the tough decision. But it doesn't mean that I

20:10

don't have a nerve. No one who knows me

20:12

knows that I do not have

20:14

aggression when it comes to bringing hayes. And

20:16

I'm not gonna be like, well, I know this person did

20:18

it, but I'm not gonna bring the case anyway

20:20

because we might lose, we might look that

20:22

That's not me, he said. And so if we're stepping into

20:24

this complete political calderm

20:26

that he is in as of

20:29

Friday when Merrick Garland makes

20:31

him the Trump special counsel. We'll

20:33

see exactly what kind of fortitude he

20:35

has because nothing is like what is

20:37

about to happen to him. Yeah.

20:39

I mean, the first thought I had when I saw the announcement, right, was

20:42

like, that's quite a job. That's

20:43

quite a job. And part

20:45

of the what what hayes

20:48

Smith, particularly interesting, I think, is is his time abroad. If

20:50

you can talk a little bit about that because that's, you

20:52

know, there are a lot of very

20:54

decorated prosecutors that'll move in and out of

20:56

government that ask perspective hayes work is

20:59

quite distinct, jumps out in his

21:01

bio, clearly something he loves. He's done multiple

21:03

times. How do you think that plays

21:05

a role in where he's

21:07

coming from? Well, so what

21:07

you're referring to is he served two

21:10

stints as a war crimes

21:12

prosecutor before international courts in

21:14

the Hague. right before he took that

21:16

job, I just talked about it in twenty ten. He spent

21:18

several years at the International Criminal

21:20

Court. And then more recently,

21:23

From twenty eighteen to now, he's been at a different

21:25

court in the Hayiga special court that's

21:27

working on war crimes from the Kosovo war.

21:31

And so this is not someone who

21:33

wants to go to a fancy

21:36

corporate law firm where he can

21:38

command thousand dollars an hour fees

21:40

and get wealthy. He is someone who

21:42

clearly wants the big

21:45

cases and war crimes cases

21:47

are some of the most difficult there are

21:49

because of the difficulty in

21:51

gathering evidence in battlefield

21:53

scenarios and witnesses and so

21:55

forth. It's not like just investigating

21:57

a crime on the streets of New York or

21:59

Chicago. And it's

22:01

also a place where your own life could

22:04

be threat because you were dealing with

22:05

global

22:06

bad actors here, not just random

22:09

criminals. But it's something that he clearly

22:11

felt a calling to do and has

22:13

done twice, again showing

22:15

this is someone who has

22:17

perhaps more nerve than

22:19

the average prosecutor. And quickly here, you

22:22

note this case, which is particularly relevant.

22:24

He would helped oversee the prosecution of Jeffrey

22:26

A. Sterling, former CIA officer was

22:28

convicted of mishandling national security secrets

22:30

and obstruction of justice. Sterling was

22:32

convicted in twenty fifteen of the espionage act and

22:34

an obstruction statute. Notably both

22:37

of these, those are potential charges

22:39

at the center of the investigation mister Trump's handling

22:41

of government documents. That does seem

22:43

quite directly relevant

22:46

experience at least as pertains to Mar

22:48

a Lago. That that's

22:49

true. Both of those charges that are

22:52

raised by the holding

22:54

of documents marked as classified

22:56

and refusal to return them back even

22:58

after being peanut for them. One of

23:00

the two major cases that he's been

23:02

handed that involved former president

23:04

Trump along, of course, with the events that

23:06

culminated in the January six riot.

23:08

So that is a case. because that's the case where journalists

23:10

are a little leery of Jack Smith because

23:12

as part of that case, he

23:14

was submitting the colleague of mine at

23:16

the New York Times testify about

23:18

his sourcing and the

23:21

Justice Department won a a legal battle to

23:23

establish that judges don't have a

23:25

right to quash subpoenas to reporters.

23:27

So we that's certainly not something that makes us stand up in

23:29

cheer from a vantage point of press freedom rights,

23:31

but it does show a certain aggression.

23:34

And I would say the other case, I would throw before

23:36

readers here because I'm sure he's readers

23:39

bureaus. I'm sure he's gonna be attacked

23:41

by Trump world. Oh, you you

23:43

must be you know, just a a liberal ideologue or something

23:45

if you're investigating Trump is he is the

23:47

guy who oversaw the prosecution of

23:49

John Edwards, the former Democratic

23:51

senator in two thousand four vice presidential

23:54

nominee. That was the case, of course,

23:56

that did not

23:57

work, that collapsed. But it

23:59

it it

23:59

shows maybe in his defense

24:02

then that he's aggressioned in, is gonna go

24:04

after hard cases even if they're not a

24:06

hundred percent there. Alright.

24:08

Two cases to think about.

24:09

Charlie Savage, thank you so much. Appreciate

24:12

that. Still

24:13

ahead, House Republicans say they will use their

24:15

narrow lead to punish Democrats. What

24:18

does that mean for the people who investigated Donald

24:20

Trump, former impeachment manager Adam Schiff

24:22

joins me next?

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25:16

It's

25:18

clear that House Republican leader,

25:20

Kevin Carthy has made a whole lot of promises in his quest

25:22

to become speaker, including to congresswoman

25:24

Marjorie Taylor Green of Georgia, who is

25:26

now whipping votes for him.

25:28

You remember

25:29

that green was stripped of hurt two

25:31

committee seats last year after it came

25:33

to light she had endorsed violence against Speaker

25:35

of the House Nancy Pelosi. You see back in

25:38

twenty nineteen, Green had liked a Facebook comment that

25:40

suggested, quote, a bullet to the head would

25:42

be quicker to remove Pelosi.

25:44

She also trafficked in

25:46

insane far right lies, including particularly

25:49

an anti Semitic one that get

25:51

this. The California wildfires

25:53

were a false flag started by a

25:56

space laser on behalf of the Roth

25:58

Childs and then governor Jerry

26:00

Brown. So, of course, the far right

26:02

extremist in the house are now scheming for

26:04

revenge, and Kevin McCarthy is pledging

26:06

to give it to them by removing

26:08

tit for tat as he views it.

26:11

Democratic three Democratic House members from their

26:13

committees.

26:14

Eric Schwab will cannot

26:16

get a security clearance in the public

26:18

sector. Why would we ever

26:20

give them security clearance and the secrets to

26:22

America. So I will not allow him to be

26:24

on intel. You have Adam

26:26

Schiff who had lied to the American public

26:28

time and again, we will not allow him to be

26:30

on the intel committee either. And

26:32

you look congresswoman Omar, her

26:34

anti Semitic comments that have gone forward.

26:36

We're not gonna her to be on foreign

26:39

affairs. Joining me out, one of

26:41

those people, congressman Adam Schiff,

26:43

Democrat of California, who's the chairman of the

26:45

intelligence committee, a member of the

26:47

January sixth, committee. Chairman, you're accused

26:49

of lying time and time against the

26:51

American people, which is apparently disqualifying

26:53

for being on a committee,

26:56

which I'm not sure about that. I've covered a

26:58

lot of politicians, and I

27:00

don't think that dings you, but I would like to get

27:02

your response.

27:04

Well, by lying what Kevin McCarthy is referring to

27:06

is telling the truth about Donald Trump and

27:08

holding to look into account

27:10

impeaching and leading that trial.

27:13

being a member of the January sixth

27:15

committee. But look, you

27:17

know, notwithstanding the bogus rationalization,

27:19

this is about

27:22

satisfying lowest elements

27:24

of his conference, the larger Taylor Greens,

27:26

who want to payback, the

27:28

GOSARS,

27:28

the Matt

27:30

Gazes, And this is

27:31

what it's gonna be over

27:33

the next two years, which is Kevin

27:35

McCarthy can't become speaker

27:37

without the QAnon tocus in

27:39

his conference. He will do what Margaret

27:42

Tillegrene tells him to do. And this is just

27:44

the beginning. And it's a

27:45

tragic American people. I mean, you know,

27:48

whether I say as German teller, I

27:50

don't. It's not the

27:52

tragedy. The tragedy is, there

27:53

are some

27:54

serious things we need to deal with as a

27:56

country And

27:57

in addition to these sort of petty

27:59

attacks on

27:59

people who have held Trump accountable, they're

28:02

threatening default on the nation's

28:05

credit their threatening government

28:07

shutdowns if we don't cut Social Security

28:09

Medicare. They want to

28:11

investigate Anthony Fauci. I mean,

28:13

it's absurd But we're gonna

28:15

see that if a public conference

28:17

is in the same asylum and it looks a

28:19

lot like one, the lunatics

28:21

are taken over. You

28:22

have this, as I said, last

28:24

week voters rejected extremist Republicans in the

28:27

ballot box. Yet despite that clear

28:29

repudiation Republicans are plowing full steam ahead

28:31

with their conspiracy theory agenda, a political sideshow for the

28:33

QAnon base. They are so dangerously

28:35

out of touch. I wanna I wanna ask about

28:37

what what this what this means for

28:39

governing. there

28:41

are things the house has to

28:43

do to keep

28:44

the government running. Right? Raising

28:46

the debt

28:46

ceiling, which you mentioned, which they're

28:49

already saying, but also passing appropriations bills

28:51

on a timely matter to keep the gun.

28:53

Are you confident

28:54

that McCarthy can

28:57

majority to deliver at that threshold

28:59

level? Or are those

29:00

gonna be tough big

29:04

catastrophes?

29:04

know catastrophe

29:06

No.

29:06

I'm not at all confident that he can

29:09

do even the bare minimum of the

29:11

job. You know, it's one

29:13

thing if you have a large majority and you

29:15

can sorta say, well, I can

29:17

afford to ignore the the crazies like

29:19

Marjure Tail Green. It's another

29:20

area if you have just a handful that

29:23

are keeping you in the speakers' chair. And

29:25

they're crazy. And you have to

29:27

go along with crazy in order to hayes do that,

29:29

to keep that job. Anna

29:32

crazy. You want you to shut down the government, then you have

29:34

to shut down the government. It's why

29:36

John Vayner walked away from the job. It's

29:38

what I called Ryan. left the

29:40

job and and, you

29:42

know, Kevin McCarthy is

29:44

nothing if not morally flexible,

29:48

malleable, And,

29:48

you know, he will do

29:51

whatever he's told to do by

29:53

Trump and by these extreme elements of this conference,

29:56

but that that will get in the way of just basic

29:58

governance. Yeah. And

29:59

and, you know, the American people

30:02

want the government to work, and and

30:04

I just don't see their

30:06

abilities, even govern their own, let alone

30:08

govern the chamber. Howard Bauchner:

30:10

I wanna ask about

30:12

the January sixth committee and and

30:15

and that speeding towards its

30:17

conclusion. One of the big

30:19

outstanding questions, of course, is about testimony from

30:21

two individuals, vice president, then vice

30:23

chairman, Mike Pence and the former president Donald Trump. Donald Trump has been

30:25

subpoenaed, and he is challenging that

30:27

subpoena. Mike Pence, who was

30:29

invited and was in negotiations as

30:31

far as I understand it, just

30:33

came out with a book. He's trying to sell

30:35

that book everywhere that he can go and basically

30:37

is saying, if you want my testimony, you

30:39

gotta pay the twenty five bucks for it.

30:41

but the committee doesn't get it. Here's here's how

30:43

he described his decision that you don't

30:45

get to talk to him. Take a listen.

30:48

I never stood in the way of

30:51

senior members of my team cooperating with the

30:53

committee and testifying. But

30:56

Congress has no right to my testimony. You're closing the

30:58

door on that entire time. I'm closing

31:00

the door on that. Why do

31:03

why do you think he's wrong when he

31:05

says climate Congress has no right to his

31:07

testimony. because it's you

31:09

know, and it's based most basic.

31:11

It's not about what Congress has

31:12

a right to. Indeed, we do have a right to

31:15

his testimony. Yes. What

31:16

is his responsibility to the public

31:18

and to the country?

31:20

A former presidents have come and testified

31:23

before congress certainly a former vice

31:25

president can. But as you

31:27

say, no, it's more important for him to sell

31:29

his book. It's really basically

31:31

follow following the John Bolton

31:33

model. I can't come in to testify

31:35

before Congress for some

31:38

fictitious reason, but I can put it all in a book

31:40

and and make money from it. You

31:42

know, look, we have to

31:44

view everything like Pence says and

31:46

does right now through the prism

31:48

of two things he wants to

31:50

run for president he doesn't wanna alienate

31:53

the Trump base anymore than he has

31:55

to. And this is his way of of

31:57

walking that line. But

31:58

it it really is

32:00

it disservice with the country? And for

32:02

him to pray this as

32:04

some kind of a sanctuitous decision

32:07

that they have no right to my testimony. It doesn't, of course,

32:09

answer the question. Does

32:11

he have

32:11

a responsibility to the country? Certainly,

32:14

if he wanted to testify, he

32:16

could and

32:17

he is withholding that from the American

32:20

people. Yeah. And to the extent there's any privilege that's

32:22

in puncture by the fact he wrote a book about it.

32:24

He does seem to be planning a twenty twenty four

32:26

run on the platform of,

32:28

with the exception of the whole hanging mic, Pence,

32:30

but I'm with Trump all the way, congressman

32:32

leadership. Thank you very much.

32:34

Thank you.

32:35

Still

32:35

to come after the Red Wave

32:38

failed to arrive, some Republicans are blaming the

32:40

Supreme Court's abortion decision.

32:42

why Donald Trump won't even say

32:44

that word next.

32:55

Five months since the conservative majority in the

32:57

Supreme Court overturned Roe versus

32:59

Wade, ending the constitutional right to an

33:01

abortion in this country, Republicans are

33:03

facing the aftermath. They are seeing

33:05

their position, which is that abortion should be

33:07

outlawed or criminalized, rejected, over

33:09

and over from coast to coast. The backlash

33:11

began just weeks after that decision came down

33:13

at the end of June. Kansas

33:16

voters overwhelmingly rejected

33:18

an amendment to their constitution that would have allowed

33:20

the legislature to ban abortion.

33:22

That vote was fifty nine to forty one

33:24

in a very red state.

33:26

and it's

33:27

in shockways for the Republican Party.

33:29

This

33:29

month, abortion rights are on the ballot in

33:32

several more states. California,

33:34

Montana, Michigan, Kentucky,

33:36

and Vermont, and it was a clean sweep for

33:38

reproductive rights in all five

33:41

states. Albertian writes activists

33:43

and other States want to follow suit with their

33:45

own ballot measures, including in

33:47

Ohio, where a current so

33:49

called heartbeat ban went into effect the

33:51

same day row was overturned. The

33:54

executive director of Procho's Ohio says of

33:56

the proposed ballot initiative, quote,

33:58

it's a when, it's not an

34:00

if. Now Republicans in the state of

34:02

Ohio again conservative state, state

34:04

that Trump won by eight points are

34:06

obviously worried about putting their deeply

34:08

unpopular position on abortion up for

34:10

a vote to the people. SO THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE

34:12

IT HARDER FOR THE OTHER SIDE TO

34:14

WIN.

34:15

Reporter: SECRETARY OF STATE

34:17

FRANKLA ROSE AND HER public

34:19

and representative Brian Stewart are proposing what they call the

34:21

Ohio Constitution Protection Amendment. The amendment

34:23

would make it so a citizen

34:25

initiated constitutional amendment

34:28

on any ballot would have to pass by sixty percent of

34:30

the vote rather than the current simple

34:32

majority. If you don't think

34:34

that your idea is broadly popular

34:37

enough to muster sixty percent vote

34:39

of the people than than maybe you should not consider bringing it to the

34:42

ballot. Now, okay.

34:43

You're, like,

34:44

you're tracking this. Right?

34:47

Protortgage activists say we want to put a

34:49

ballot initiative constitutional amendment on the state. It's happening

34:51

in other states. The Republican secretary, St.

34:53

Frank Maduro hayes, you know what?

34:55

I've been thinking. Let's make it harder to pass one of

34:57

those. Now, Larose claims the proposal has no

35:00

connection at all to any

35:02

potential ballot measure

35:04

on abortion. But he wants to put

35:06

the amendment up for a vote during the primary in May, likely before

35:08

an abortion initiative would make it onto

35:12

the ballot. And here's the best part

35:14

of this. Their own plan to make it harder to pass future constitutional

35:16

amendments would require just a simple

35:19

majority to pass. So if you

35:21

can get fifty plus one, maybe you can

35:24

stop the people of Ohio from actually

35:26

governing themselves where abortion is concerned,

35:28

which is the point it is all

35:30

very transparent. But, Ohio

35:32

Republicans are certainly not the only ones who understand

35:34

they are on the wrong side of this issue.

35:36

They will not say what they really think.

35:39

The

35:39

man who ultimately delivered that Supreme Court

35:41

decision on abortion, the

35:43

criminalization banning of abortion in

35:45

thirteen states, the possibility of a national

35:47

abortion ban. Donald Trump, that man, will not say a word about it,

35:49

now that he's back on the presidential campaign

35:52

trail. That's

35:54

next.

35:56

Over the

35:59

weekend, we saw

36:00

the first event, believe it or not, of

36:02

the twenty twenty four Republican presidential

36:06

primary. It was the Republican Jewish

36:08

Coalition annual meeting in Las

36:10

Vegas. There were nearly a dozen

36:12

speakers, all of whom are clearly interested

36:14

in running for president,

36:16

including Donald Trump who was there

36:18

remotely. There were as far as I could tell two

36:20

big takeaways from that event. The first

36:22

is that All the non Trump folks do understand they eventually will have

36:24

to go after Donald Trump, many of them using the

36:26

event to take some jobs at the

36:28

ex president.

36:30

Joe

36:31

Biden turns eighty years old tomorrow. Happy

36:34

birthday, mister president, but it's time

36:36

for

36:38

a younger generation to lead across the board. What

36:40

is really required as we present the

36:42

conservative case, as we make the argument.

36:46

which is what matters. We make the argument and win the argument and we

36:48

don't simply rail against the machine that

36:50

we don't simply go on Fox

36:52

News or send tweets. We keep

36:56

losing and losing and losing.

36:58

And the fact of the matter

36:59

is the reason

37:02

we're losing is

37:04

because Donald Trump

37:06

has put

37:07

himself

37:09

before everybody else. Christy

37:11

distinguishing himself there by at least summoning

37:13

the courage to say the name of the

37:15

man. The other big takeaway from that

37:17

event, the

37:18

one that I'm pretty obsessed with, and everyone in,

37:20

I think, in Republican politics is, is that

37:22

the field's too big, which

37:24

could mean a repeat of twenty sixteen.

37:26

The Associated Press flashed back to that election's seventeen candidate primary,

37:28

which, quote, allowed Trump to become

37:31

the party's presidential nominee despite

37:34

winning just thirty five percent or less of the vote in each of three

37:36

opening primary contests. And if

37:38

that does happen again, that means the

37:40

boar divided

37:42

the field the more Trump

37:44

brand loyalty matters. And that is the

37:46

one thing the ex president has actually been good

37:48

at. The showrunner cop writes, the New

37:50

Yorker, quote, its talent lies not

37:52

in organizational leadership when shepherding a novel concept from its inception to a place of prominence

37:55

rather in marketing. And

37:58

joining me now is Jalani Cobb, staff writer from New Yorker

37:59

and Dean of the Columbia

38:02

University School of Journal. Great to have

38:04

you here. Good

38:06

evening. You you read about the sort of enduring power

38:08

of Trumpism. You write this. You said Trump did

38:10

not single handedly inject the

38:12

strains of Orange's racism, Nativeism, belligerence, and a durable

38:14

sympathy for anti democratic behavior into

38:16

the Republican Party. There's no reason to

38:18

believe that his absence would cause him

38:20

to evaporate. It

38:22

strikes me that part of his challenge is that because everyone is so

38:24

much like him now, it's harder

38:26

for him to distinguish himself. Sure.

38:30

You know, although they have their own problems

38:32

because you you remember when John

38:34

Huntsman thought that he could just easily

38:36

separate himself from Barack

38:38

Obama and then run against

38:40

Obama. Well, you know, the people who you're talking

38:42

about here have all been closely tied to

38:44

Trump. If not in

38:46

his cabinet, And how do you justify then going after him?

38:48

And how hollow does that sound? You

38:50

know? And at the

38:52

same time, Trump is

38:53

performing a trick that the audience has seen

38:56

before. You know, magic tricks work

38:58

once the first time the crowd

39:00

sees them. And so it it places this kind of

39:02

conundrum in terms of like how this law will shake

39:04

out. There is this this

39:06

collective

39:06

action problem, which they have the first time

39:08

around. and it's wild

39:10

to watch it again. Right? Feeding through.

39:12

I really I was, like, looking at the reports

39:14

and I heard you say, and I was, like, hey, hayes,

39:17

can we We get

39:18

in a room here. Could I figure this out? But it really does feel

39:20

it's a real groundhog's day

39:22

sensation. Sure. Getting in right now. So

39:24

so the the smoke filled rooms came

39:27

about for a reason. Yes. That's right. They

39:29

came about because people realized that, you

39:31

know, conventions could get away from them. They could wind up

39:33

with candidates that were

39:36

completely unelectable. you can wind up with all

39:38

kinds of political disasters in those ways. And if you recall

39:40

in two thousand sixteen, the Republicans

39:42

were selling this as a virtue.

39:45

they were saying, look, our process

39:47

is completely open. We're not trying to

39:49

shepherd any favorite son or favorite daughter

39:52

candidates the way the democrats

39:54

are. And we see how that turned out. And they and

39:56

and the smoke filled room

39:57

also solves that coordination problem. So it's

39:59

what political

39:59

parties for years

40:02

have done. Sure. Which was the self coordination process. Right.

40:04

That's that's what they do. I mean, the

40:06

reasons that people have political bosses

40:08

is that

40:10

kinda need is might even be a boss. That has said that machine politics

40:12

are great or any of those other kind of things,

40:14

but I'm saying that there is a political

40:18

sluggish. Right? There's a logic to to why

40:20

that exists.

40:22

The the other thing

40:23

that I keep thinking about as

40:25

I watch them plunge the country back

40:27

into this, is how

40:28

much this could have been avoided -- Mhmm.

40:30

-- which is if Mitch McConnell

40:33

comes out in

40:35

that second impeachment says, I voting to convict Donald Trump,

40:37

and I'm whipping

40:38

for it. There would have been

40:40

for

40:41

unbelievable history

40:43

on X and anger in their public base. But

40:45

they could hayes convicted him and under the

40:47

US constitution stopped him from

40:49

running again. And whatever anger would have, I think, dissipated, and they

40:51

would just not have this problem now. Sure. But I

40:54

think it's all, like, the entire Trump

40:56

phenomenon has been the

40:58

kind of short term

41:00

pain versus dealing with the

41:02

kind of long term prospect. There's not

41:04

been very much long term thinking associated

41:06

with it. especially if you look at the fact that they lost

41:08

in the midterms in twenty

41:10

eighteen, lost in twenty

41:12

twenty, lost in twenty twenty two, it's

41:14

not until

41:16

the third election that people began to actually say, okay, maybe

41:18

the price for this is too high. And

41:20

so the the fact of it is, like, you know,

41:22

the reason it was easy to get the predictions wrong

41:25

in this midterm cycle, was that nobody

41:27

was expecting people to actually feel that

41:29

there were any consequences regardless

41:31

of how the Republican party, you know,

41:33

fared in that election. You're you're the head

41:35

of a journalism school right now at a moment

41:37

of crucial moment of crisis for American

41:40

democracy or testing. And I

41:42

think there's this question right after the midterms or

41:44

most of the candidates sort of slunk away.

41:46

Some

41:47

gave gracious concessions, some

41:49

gave passive aggressive ones. Terry Lake

41:51

is the exception in Arizona. She is essentially trying

41:53

to rerun Trump. She's videos we're

41:55

gonna fight, etcetera. What

41:58

do you think of the status of of democracy

41:59

and Trumpism? And particularly late as this sort

42:02

of emissary here, testing

42:04

whether

42:04

that has legs that's in

42:07

someone

42:07

other than Donald Trump? Sure. So I I

42:09

think the thing is that irrespective

42:12

of what you might think about him, you know,

42:14

politically or what he stood for, Trump

42:16

possessed a certain kind of

42:18

charisma, malignant charisma,

42:20

you know, as it may be. But

42:22

but a certain kind of question. Right? The kind of flare to be able to do the things

42:25

that he did. He was a salesman for

42:27

all of those years. So simply

42:29

being belligerent and and simply being

42:32

antagonistic toward various ethnic

42:34

groups or or various religions and whatever.

42:36

That that's not the entirety of

42:39

the Trump sauce. And so I think that's why

42:41

people haven't succeeded with it. People kept trying to replicate

42:43

it, but no one has really done it the way

42:45

that he's done it. And so that end of itself

42:47

doesn't mean the threat to democracy is over. It

42:49

just means you don't get to replicate Trump

42:51

in that way. Yeah.

42:53

It's it's such an important point. It is also, I think, what

42:56

Carrie Lake sticks out. Right? Because she does have this

42:58

background as a TV presenter because she is

43:00

obviously an

43:02

effective communicator. far more effective than many of the other replacement level

43:04

from quantities. Right. And and

43:06

why I think this this turn that

43:08

she's taken us is such an important test and

43:10

so dangerous.

43:12

Right? Do people rally behind this because there's an appetite for this?

43:14

Or does she go down as a as a loser? You

43:16

know? And I think that's really an open question. So

43:19

Well, here's the thing though. Right? We're talking about

43:21

individual candidates. What happens if you have

43:23

a rogue legislature? Yeah.

43:26

That's that's the more dangerous

43:28

proposition. You're like, individual candidate

43:30

that doesn't want to concede, that's bad, you

43:32

know, that's bad form, you know, eventually there may

43:34

be even a backlash for that person, politically,

43:37

But what do you do if a handful of

43:39

people in a swing state decide that

43:41

they don't want the election to go the

43:43

way they actually win? Johnny Cobb of the Columbia University School

43:45

of Journalism and the New Yorker among

43:47

other illustrious associations. Great to have.

43:49

Yep. Thank you. That does

43:51

it for all in. You can catch us every week

43:53

night at eight o'clock on MSNBC. Don't forget to like

43:55

us on Facebook. That's facebook dot com

43:58

slash all in with Chris.

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