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code WELCOME at bluenile.com for $50 off.

0:27

off. Tonight

0:32

on All In. I don't

0:34

care Andrew Jackson or anybody else. Nobody's

0:36

been treated like Trump in terms

0:39

of badly. The criminal defendant

0:41

candidate appears before the judge he

0:43

appointed. The fact

0:45

that she's even holding this hearing is a

0:47

facilitation of the delay, stall and ignore tactics

0:49

that we've seen from Trump all along in

0:51

this case and his other ones. What

0:54

today's hearing means for the Trump trials? The

0:58

only things that Donald Trump's arguments today

1:00

merit are an eye roll and a

1:03

swift denial. Then how

1:05

a magga delusion is officially taking hold

1:07

of the RNC. People

1:09

say, well, let's be like the Democrats

1:11

and vote early and ballot harvest and

1:13

all this. No, you lose your country.

1:16

And as Republicans keep threatening reproductive rights

1:18

across the country, a historic show of

1:21

support for women in the form of

1:23

a Planned Parenthood visit. When

1:25

we talk about a clinic

1:28

such as this, it is absolutely about

1:30

health care and reproductive health care. And

1:33

All In starts right now. Good

1:39

evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. Donald

1:42

Trump spent the afternoon where he spends many

1:44

afternoons these days in court. He

1:46

attended a procedural hearing in Florida

1:48

as part of one of the

1:50

federal criminal cases against him. Specifically,

1:52

the one where prosecutors accuse him

1:55

of stealing highly classified government secrets

1:57

and then many times willfully obstructing

1:59

the court. by hiding

2:01

the stolen documents from the government and

2:03

repeatedly lying about it. Now,

2:06

this case, I will admit, has receded a little bit

2:08

from public memory, in large

2:11

part, I think, because of the rather glacial

2:13

pace at which it's moving. And that is

2:15

thanks to one Judge Aileen Cannon. Judge

2:18

Cannon was plucked from obscurity by Donald Trump. He

2:21

elevated her to a lifetime appointment on

2:23

the federal bench when she was just

2:25

39. Cannon was confirmed by the Senate

2:27

in that brief lame-guck session after Trump

2:29

lost the 2020 election. She

2:32

is now the one presiding over the documents case.

2:35

She has done her best to slow the speed of

2:37

the case down to a crawl. But

2:39

it's worth keeping the details in this federal indictment front of mind,

2:42

because they really are truly damning. Every

2:44

time I go back to them, I'm like, oh, my word. That

2:48

is, in fact, why one key witness

2:50

in the case came forward just this

2:52

week, to basically circumvent Judge Cannon's delay

2:54

tactics and share what he knows directly

2:56

with the American people ahead of November's

2:58

election. Brian Butler, a

3:01

multi-decade employee of Mar-a-Lago, says

3:03

he unwittingly helped Trump's co-defendant,

3:06

Waltin Nada, move boxes

3:08

of classified documents to the ex-president's

3:10

plane. On the same day, Trump

3:13

was supposed to meet with federal

3:15

prosecutors about those documents at Mar-a-Lago.

3:19

You noticed that he had thought— Yeah,

3:21

they were the boxes that were in

3:23

the indictment, the white banker's boxes. That's

3:26

what I remember loading. And did you

3:28

have any idea at the time that there

3:30

was potentially U.S. national

3:32

security secrets in this box? No clue. I

3:34

had no clue. I mean, we were

3:36

just taking them out of the escalade, piling them

3:39

up. I remember they were all stacked on top

3:41

of each other, and then we're lifting them up

3:43

to the pilot. Again, Trump

3:45

is meeting at Mar-a-Lago with the

3:47

FBI about the documents they say

3:49

he has as Butler

3:52

and Nada are loading said documents

3:54

onto a plane. Butler

3:57

also recounted Trump's attempted cover-up of his plane.

4:00

crimes in the form of a conversation with

4:02

another Trump ally at Mar-a-Lago. I

4:05

remember him saying, hey, by the way, Walt's

4:07

coming tomorrow. Oh, cool. That's great. I was

4:10

like, okay. It wasn't until the following day

4:13

when we're out walking, he's like, hey, by the

4:15

way, it's a secret. Don't tell anybody

4:17

Walt's coming. And why?

4:21

Well, he needs me to, he needs me

4:23

to find something out before he gets here.

4:25

Oh, what's that? He needs me to, you

4:27

know, how long the camera footage is saved

4:29

at Mar-a-Lago. And I'm like, well,

4:31

that's odd. Why do you need the camera footage?

4:33

Why do you need to know how long it's

4:36

saved? And his response was, I think they're looking

4:38

for somebody that was there. I

4:40

think the American people have the right to

4:42

know the facts that this is not a

4:44

witch hunt. That

4:46

claim from the ex-president, this is all big witch

4:48

hunt, is effectively what is argued, is

4:51

lawyers argued in court today. They

4:53

tried to get the case dismissed this afternoon using

4:55

some torture legal logic, including a claim the law

4:58

was, quote, unconstitutionally vague.

5:01

Now, judge Cannon ultimately rejected that particular

5:03

argument today, choosing instead to basically kick

5:05

the question down the road. It was

5:07

sort of not really resolved. But

5:10

in some senses, that's beside the point as we

5:12

keep hammering day after day on this program. Trump's

5:15

main goal is simply to run up the

5:17

clock. And crucially, Cannon did not give any

5:19

update today on when she might actually bring

5:21

this case to trial. That's

5:23

really the crux of the whole issue. Because

5:26

Donald Trump is facing serious legal jeopardy. Both

5:28

federal indictments against him are incredibly damning.

5:30

But even with access to money from

5:32

small dollar donors, now possibly the Republican

5:34

National Committee, the legal bills are going

5:36

to continue to pile up. And

5:39

even with the best representation available, the

5:41

ex-president's best bet was never seeking an acquittal

5:43

by a jury of his peers. The

5:46

evidence against him is simply too strong for

5:48

that. No, his best strategy was

5:51

to simply find ways to delay all the

5:53

cases against him until November, when he could

5:55

potentially get elected president and then as president,

5:57

at least regards the federal cases. Order

6:00

his own Justice Department to abandon the

6:02

pending cases against him. And

6:06

that seemed like a wild strategy

6:08

play. But in all

6:10

honesty, it looks like he might actually get away with it. I

6:13

mean, look, sometimes, oftentimes delays happen

6:16

in the judicial system, even when judges are acting in

6:18

good faith. We saw an

6:20

example today when the Manhattan District Attorney's Office

6:22

moved to delay its looming case against Trump

6:24

for procedural reasons. That's

6:27

the case for the ex-president is accused of bribing a

6:29

porn star ahead of a 2016 election to

6:32

keep quiet, but fair they apparently had while

6:34

his wife Melania was at home taking care

6:36

of their newborn son. This

6:38

money was paid just weeks before

6:40

the election. It was

6:42

supposed to go to trial in a matter

6:44

of days, but both sides have now agreed

6:46

to push that date back in response to

6:48

tens of thousands of pages of discovery material

6:51

that was recently made available by federal prosecutors

6:53

to New York prosecutors. Trump's office

6:55

has asked for just a one month delay. Trump's

6:57

lawyers have predictably asked for three months. We've

7:01

also seen a delay in the Fulton

7:03

County, Georgia racketeering case against Trump over

7:05

potentially inappropriate relationship District Attorney Fonnie Wills

7:07

had with one of her prosecutors and

7:09

whether the relationship constitutes a conflict of

7:11

interest. Either

7:13

of those delays are ideal, but they're sort

7:16

of different in scope and motivation from the

7:18

other more weaponized delay tactics that we've seen

7:20

in these federal cases. Delay

7:22

tactics aided and abetted by members of

7:24

judiciary who, oh, by the way, Donald

7:26

Trump handpicked for their jobs. Like

7:29

the Supreme Court of the United States with its

7:32

extreme six member MAGA majority, three

7:34

of whom owe their lifetime tenure to the

7:36

ex-president. They have bent

7:38

over backwards to appease Trump's desire for delay

7:40

by sitting on his bogus immunity appeal for

7:42

weeks before then scheduling order arguments for literally

7:45

the latest date that they are allowed, the

7:47

last day of oral arguments. It's

7:50

all a part of what looks to all the world, at least at this

7:52

point, like a flagrant bid

7:54

to push Trump's federal January six trial

7:56

until after the election. That

7:59

brings us back to. judge Alien, Canada, and Florida.

8:01

Through the luck of the draw, randomly, she was

8:04

assigned to Trump's documents case. At

8:06

every single moment where she could choose between expedition

8:08

or delay, she is more or less always chosen

8:10

to delay. Now

8:13

is when the rubber really hits the road because she's eventually

8:15

going to have to actually set a real trial date. We'll

8:17

see if she chooses the most obvious form of favor

8:20

for the guy who gave her the job she currently

8:22

holds and could very well promote her more in the

8:24

future, delaying his trial until after

8:26

the election. It's entirely

8:28

possible. That's why one

8:30

conservative commentator gloated that Trump hit the

8:32

quote, inside straight. He needed to avoid

8:35

legal accountability before the election. It's

8:37

true. He was dealt a good

8:39

hand. It's looking like it was only because he

8:41

hired the dealers. Lisa

8:44

Rubin's a former litigator and MSNBC legal

8:46

correspondent. Timidai Ganga Williams is a former

8:48

federal prosecutor who served as a senior

8:50

investigative counsel of the January 6th committee,

8:52

and they join me now. Let's talk

8:54

about the goings on in

8:57

Florida today, Judge Eileen Connan. Donald

8:59

Trump in the room, which

9:02

by the way, there's some part of me that

9:04

he's there to remind her who appointed her and

9:06

who he is, although he also showed up in

9:08

New York stuff. So who knows? Well, it's double-sided,

9:10

right? I think Trump shows up to remind

9:12

the people who favor him, and he shows

9:14

up to try and intimidate the people who

9:16

don't. When he had discovered

9:19

that it didn't work with some of those

9:21

people, he stopped showing up as frequently, for

9:23

example, with Judge Ingraham. But with Eileen Connan,

9:25

this is not the first time that he

9:27

showed up, and he will continue to show

9:29

up because it draws the supporters out in

9:31

the streets, and it reminds her what might

9:33

await her if she continues playing

9:35

his cards right. The hearing today was

9:37

on motions to dismiss, if I'm not

9:40

mistaken, one of which was

9:42

essentially that the charges were unconstitutionally vague. Is

9:44

that right? Yeah. So

9:46

a defendant has a constitutional right to understand

9:48

what he's being charged with. And if a

9:51

statute is too vague, meaning you can't tell

9:53

what conduct is being prohibited, that's

9:55

unconstitutional. And what Trump was arguing today

9:57

is that the Espionage Act was on

10:00

unconstitutional because it was too vague. Now

10:02

that is a frivolous motion, right? That's the kind

10:04

of motion that Judge Cannon could have taken on

10:06

what we call the papers, read

10:08

the briefing and decided without an entire hearing

10:10

that she did today. Judges do

10:13

that all the time, frankly, what she should have done

10:15

here. So her coming out and

10:17

then issuing this order right

10:20

afterwards and dismissing that, which was obviously

10:22

a pre-written order that was ready to

10:24

go, I think further shows that

10:26

she could have decided this immediately and moved

10:28

this along quickly and chose not. So this

10:30

is an example of taking the longer route,

10:32

which it's like you've got the maps program

10:36

pulled up and like you can take the quick route,

10:38

you can take the longer route, she took the longer

10:40

route. She took the scenic route, basically, exactly. I want

10:42

to illustrate how scenic it is,

10:44

Chris, because she didn't just say,

10:47

I'm dismissing your motion. She said,

10:49

I'm dismissing it without prejudice, which

10:51

means they can't take

10:53

an appeal from it. And

10:55

she's kicking the can just further down the

10:57

road. She's not saying the question about unconstitutional

11:00

vagueness of the Espionage Act is resolved. She's

11:02

saying, I still have questions about this. They

11:04

might be better resolved at a later stage

11:06

in the proceedings. So your motion is denied

11:08

without prejudice. You can renew it at a

11:11

later date. So that's keeping the

11:13

door open for more delay. Correct. It

11:15

allows the former president to bring this up

11:17

later, perhaps near Joei instructions, which

11:19

is what she noted. He still has options. And

11:21

just to be clear, the Espionage Act has passed

11:23

under Woodrow Wilson in the run up to World

11:25

War I. It is, subsidentally on the merits, I

11:28

think a deeply flawed piece of legislation. I

11:30

would say a bad piece of legislation in many respects.

11:33

But the reason I bring this up

11:35

is, unlike a claim to presidential immunity

11:37

in a fairly novel circumstance, the unconstitutionality

11:39

of the Espionage Act is not some

11:41

novel new argument that you have to like

11:44

wrestle with. People have been

11:46

charged and sentenced under the willful retention prong

11:48

of the Espionage Act for decades.

11:51

Over and over again. Right. And

11:53

remember that she's a trial judge. So she doesn't have the

11:55

authority here to be making new law. This

11:57

is not an appellate court. This is not the Supreme Court. she's

12:00

bound by a higher court precedent. So the

12:02

realistic mess that she was going to come

12:04

out with an entire new framework for the

12:07

Internet was unlikely for that reason as well.

12:09

So again, I try to

12:11

keep checking myself here because I don't want

12:13

to fall into the pattern that

12:16

I think Trump and others fall into, which is

12:18

to view all judicial appointments as flatly partisan. It's

12:20

all will to power. There's no such thing as

12:22

law. I think it's a dangerous way to view

12:24

things, although maybe descriptively

12:27

accurate, we'll see. I

12:30

guess I'm trying to like it does seem to me every

12:32

time that I've looked at a canon decision, a fair-minded

12:35

observer would say at the very minimum,

12:37

she is not moving this quickly. She

12:40

does not seem to be spurred by

12:42

any urgency on time. No. And

12:45

even the way she structured the motions to

12:47

dismiss in the first place show that she

12:49

has an interest or at least

12:51

a willingness to sort of elongate this proceedings.

12:53

Trump has seven motions to dismiss. She let

12:56

him paper them all separately. Some judges might

12:58

say, hey, you can put in a consolidated

13:00

brief. Maybe he gets to be 50 pages.

13:03

She's got seven 25 page motions from him

13:05

and responses from the government and replies from

13:07

him. This was the first

13:10

hearing on his motions to dismiss. She heard

13:12

two of them today. We got five

13:14

more to go. Some of them implicate classified information.

13:16

Chris, this is going to go on for some

13:18

time. And in the meantime, she still hasn't set

13:20

a trial date and you could take a bunch

13:22

of different views on why that is. One

13:25

might be she hopes that the Supreme Court

13:27

will. While she's moving through these other motions

13:29

to dismiss, sort of save her and enter

13:32

an opinion on presidential immunity that allows Trump

13:34

to continue to advance that defense in this

13:36

case. One of those pending motions to dismiss

13:38

is on this. But a more charitable view

13:41

is she understands that her case is the

13:43

least trial ready. She does not want

13:45

to accept a summer trial of this case if

13:48

it essentially means that Judge Chutkin in the

13:50

event the Supreme Court goes the other way,

13:52

loses the opportunity to try that case. I

13:54

think she would be very soundly

13:57

criticized for that if she did. Let's

14:00

talk about New York. I am so

14:02

I again, all this stuff about the clock

14:04

is it's so weird because we're getting this

14:07

window to judicial system that is always moving

14:09

very slowly. Right. I

14:11

mean, that's just the way the American judicial system works,

14:13

particularly with people with a lot of money for lawyers

14:15

and can afford a lot of process. So

14:18

today we got word that there's going

14:20

to be an up to 30 day

14:22

delay that has been agreed to by

14:24

Alvin Bragg's office DAs because

14:27

of late

14:30

a late turnover. This is why it's interesting to

14:32

me as a former federal prosecutor. The U.S. attorney's

14:34

office gave them materials like three days ago and

14:36

now they have to go through it. Well,

14:39

so the thing to recognize is

14:41

that different offices operate independently of

14:43

each other. Well, clearly. Right. This

14:46

is a more extreme example here. But

14:48

you know what happens that when an

14:50

office here like Dave Ragg's gets information,

14:52

even it's from an external agency or

14:55

prosecutor's office, he now has obligations under

14:57

the law to whether it's Brady, whether

14:59

it's impeachment evidence, the variety

15:01

of discovery obligations, even if

15:03

it gets it the day of the

15:05

trial, it doesn't absolve in responsibility. So

15:07

whatever decisions that were made by the

15:09

federal prosecutors here, which frankly would be

15:11

surprising and shocking if those are the

15:14

facts that they basically waited on a

15:16

document dump on him. And as I

15:18

understand, perhaps gave it to the former

15:20

president's team and the federal case separately.

15:22

I think it's really, really a bad look for the Department

15:24

of Justice. And frankly, I think Alvin Bragg here is not

15:27

the one at fault. And

15:29

in Alvin Bragg's defense, you know, one of

15:32

the things Trump says about all of these

15:34

cases is it represents collusion between the Biden

15:36

Justice Department and these DAs, whether it be

15:38

Fani Willis, Alvin Bragg or the attorney general

15:40

of New York, just James. He's even

15:42

looked at E.J. Carroll, who's just a private plaintiff in

15:45

this, right? It's all part of some grand conspiracy. But

15:47

by the way, if the Biden Justice

15:49

Department were colluding with D.A. Bragg, what

15:51

happened today would have never happened. Alvin

15:53

Bragg is saying in this filing today, look, I

15:56

asked the U.S. Attorney's Office for all this stuff

15:58

last year. They gave me a subset of

16:00

what I asked for, I promptly turned it

16:02

over to Trump. Trump then waited until January,

16:05

issued a subpoena of his own, and lo

16:07

and behold, very recently gets back, it's now

16:09

hundreds of thousands of pages of documents, including

16:11

some of the very same stuff I asked

16:13

for and didn't get. I can't explain this,

16:15

but because I can't, I'll agree to a

16:18

30-day adjournment. Let me just read from the

16:20

NBC reporting on this for some of those details. Trump had

16:22

requested a 90-day delay in the trial after

16:24

U.S. Attorney's Office of Manhattan provided 73,000 pages

16:27

of discovery since March 4th. Bragg said his office's

16:29

initial review of those documents were largely irrelevant to

16:31

the subject matter of the case, except for 172

16:33

pages of witness statements. The

16:36

district attorney said the U.S. Attorney's Office on Wednesday

16:38

had produced about 31,000 pages of

16:40

additional records to both prosecutors and Trump's

16:43

lawyers and indicated an additional production would

16:45

follow by next week. I

16:47

mean, that's wild, just dumping thousands of

16:49

documents. This came after Trump

16:51

issued that subpoena mid-January for additional materials

16:53

for federal prosecutors. This will

16:55

delay this trial, it looks like, right? We're going

16:57

to get the month delay. Well, we'll see. I

16:59

mean, but I think Judge Marchon will probably agree, given

17:01

that both parties agree at least on that. But

17:04

the trial nonetheless will probably go forward, right,

17:06

Tim? I think so. And frankly, Judge

17:10

Marchon, I think is how you say his name, he's

17:12

the one judge we've seen who really is not playing

17:14

games here. I mean, he has kept tight control over

17:16

his courtroom and his courtroom calendar. I mean, Judge Huckman

17:18

as well has, but she lost some of the ability

17:20

to. So I think, frankly, he's not going to push

17:22

this three months out. We'll keep this on the timeline.

17:24

Let me just say from the cynical point of view,

17:26

again, I don't want to be too cynical here, but

17:29

in the case of Judge Huckman, like, you

17:31

know, the Trump legal team, like a heat seeking

17:33

missile has sort of like landed away until they've

17:35

got to a court with their own people on

17:37

it. And then things slow down. It's like, that's

17:40

what's happened in both federal court cases. It's

17:42

like, you go until you find the judge

17:44

that you appointed, and then things slow down.

17:46

Which is why I think Judge Kennan is sort of like brilliant

17:50

In a not positive way by just by

17:52

denying the motion today without prejudice, because she

17:54

knows that the 11th Circuit is watching her.

17:57

And To your point about not casting people

17:59

as. Trump judges or Obama

18:01

Judges Touch can and has been smackdown

18:03

twice now by the Eleventh Circuit's the

18:05

last time where they said that her

18:07

special master process was totally unwarranted with

18:10

by a three judge panel consisting of

18:12

three judges appointed by Republican presidents to

18:14

my former just for President Trump self.

18:16

I take that. With. Some

18:18

confidence in the rule of law with some confidence

18:20

in judges no matter who they are appointed by.

18:23

but alien, Canada's not a firing. Lot of my

18:25

confidence right? Now. We saruman into the

18:27

dog. annoying like you both screwing up.

18:29

Why bother trying to win the presidency

18:31

when you tried to steal it will

18:33

be Trump during completed as hostile takeover

18:35

the Republican party. What it means for

18:37

the future of our democracy. Next. On

18:43

one level, you can see Donald Trump's relationship

18:45

to democracy and self governance seems pretty straightforward.

18:47

doesn't care about them? Because

18:50

he doesn't like to lose, right cities lost

18:52

a democratic elections, he's desperate for criminal a

18:54

new lease, so it's sort of instrumental

18:56

for him. No. Democracy know losing,

18:58

no problem. I. Think

19:00

it's actually deeper than that. Deeper than

19:02

a kind of instruments. Oh well. whatever

19:04

works best. I think it's opposing. Democracy

19:07

isn't just convenient for him. it's actually

19:09

a fixed. Strongly.

19:11

Held ideological bullies, You

19:13

can see that all the time in his constant

19:15

praise of dictators. Scooter.

19:17

Have a good relationship with food. See

19:20

all these people. they have lots of

19:22

nuclear weapons and zebra young goon as

19:24

a good relationship with these are tough

19:26

smart guys. Tough. Smart guys. He

19:28

always says that he had were bombed the

19:30

other day, says he's a boss and says

19:32

goes he likes it. He likes the idea

19:34

of a strong man whose top with his

19:36

people. He prefers dictatorships democracies as a fixed

19:38

sensible. And. Not just on day one. But.

19:41

Again, cel that's all very rhetorical. New

19:44

one and couple example this antagonism to

19:46

democracy in practice. Just.

19:48

Look at what's going on at

19:50

the Republican National Committee for Trump.

19:52

the presumptive nominee is purging the

19:54

party and we making it came

19:56

his eminence. actual

19:58

republican election expert said at odds

20:00

with Trump for years because

20:03

he tells Republican voters and Trump voters

20:05

that mail-in voting is rigged. Remember this,

20:07

right? Spent months saying it. Remember back

20:09

in November 2020, after

20:11

Joe Biden won and Donald Trump denied the result,

20:13

there were still those two critical

20:15

Senate runoff elections in Georgia that

20:18

would determine party control of

20:20

the Senate. And RNC Chairwoman

20:22

Ronnie McDaniel was confronted with

20:24

the real world effect of

20:26

Trump's election lies. The team are

20:28

switching the vote and we could go

20:30

there in crazy numbers and

20:33

they should have won, but then there's

20:35

still... Yeah, we have to... We didn't

20:37

see that in the audit, so we've got to just... That's

20:40

evidence I haven't seen, so I will wait

20:42

and see on that. How are we

20:44

going to use money and work when

20:47

it's already decided? It's not

20:49

decided. This is the key. It's

20:51

not decided. If you lose your faith

20:53

and you don't vote and people walk

20:55

away, that will decide it. It's

20:58

not rigged. I promise you, please vote. Remember

21:01

Democrats swept both of those Senate seats. So

21:04

the RNC realized they had a problem on their

21:06

hand. This bizarre vendetta Trump had specifically

21:09

against mail-in voting, which wasn't what the gentleman

21:11

there was referencing, but mail-in voting in particular

21:13

was really hurting them. Because

21:15

as Ronald McDaniel tried in vain to tell

21:18

those Georgia Republicans, mail-in balloting is

21:20

an incredibly useful way to bank votes. You

21:23

never know what's going to happen on election day. You certainly

21:25

don't want to wait for the last second and then, I

21:27

don't know, there's a blizzard and the weather's bad, or there's

21:29

an emergency, or voters get out of

21:31

work before... Can't get out of work before the polls

21:34

close. Not only that, but

21:36

this is crucial. As a major party organizer,

21:39

if you bank those votes early, if the people

21:41

that you know are voting for you vote early,

21:43

then you have a smaller, what's called voter universe

21:45

to deal with on election day to go contact

21:48

those voters and turn them out. It is an

21:50

efficient way to campaign democratically. It's just smart, good

21:52

tactics. It's not a partisan

21:54

or ideological issue at all, which

21:57

is why after the 2020 debacle, The

22:00

RNC launched the Bank Your Vote

22:02

campaign to, as they put it,

22:04

get our voters to vote by mail or

22:06

early in person and ballot harvest where permitted.

22:10

All things the last Republican president

22:12

said were corrupt and fraudulent, wrongly.

22:15

But now, Donald Trump could be the next Republican

22:17

president and his people taken over

22:20

the RNC. Guess what he's doing as part of

22:22

his remodeling over the RNC? The

22:25

much-heralded Bank Your Vote program aimed at

22:27

getting Republicans to vote early will shift

22:29

to a Grow the Vote program focused

22:31

more on expanding the party's outreach to

22:33

less likely Trump voters, according to The

22:35

Washington Post. Which, okay, voter

22:37

outreach is good, I guess. But also,

22:39

this is key, Trump's top

22:41

campaign aide at the RNC

22:44

also installed Christina Bob, a

22:46

former OAN reporter and an

22:48

ardent 2020 election denier, as,

22:51

listen for the title, Senior

22:53

Council for Election Integrity. So

22:58

to recap here, instead of making Republicans

23:00

comfortable with early mail-in voting, they're killing

23:02

that idea, and with the naming of

23:04

Bob to the senior role appear to be going all in

23:06

on election integrity, which

23:08

means suing election officials and

23:10

challenging voter access. The

23:13

new institutional ethos is less Party

23:15

of Lincoln and more My Pillow

23:17

Guy. People

23:19

say, well, let's be like the Democrats and

23:22

vote early and ballot harvest and all this.

23:25

No, you lose your country. That's

23:27

where all the crime is, is in the early

23:29

voting and stuff. No, that's

23:32

not. You're wrong. But that's

23:34

what Donald Trump wants. Remember, he was

23:36

complaining about the election being rigged ad nauseam

23:39

before he even lost it in 2020. Remember

23:41

that? And here's the party

23:43

he now runs making an affirmative choice backed up

23:45

by money and manpower and

23:47

logistics, a choice to put their

23:49

effort into trying to suppress

23:52

the vote, election integrity, stop

23:54

people from voting, putting up hurdles

23:56

rather than the effort they had

23:58

in place to... just straightforwardly

24:01

win more votes. Make

24:04

it easier for your people to vote. That's

24:07

what they're committed to. Because

24:09

Donald Trump hates the idea

24:11

of people choosing their leader. You

24:14

would prefer it if the leader could choose his people.

24:18

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24:20

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25:25

It's becoming glaringly apparent that Donald

25:27

Trump absolutely crushed Joe Biden in

25:30

the election. We've learned enough about

25:32

the Dominion machine and software to

25:34

know that it is intentionally hackable,

25:36

fixable. It monitors the spread of

25:38

votes to alert of the needed

25:40

additional votes. all

26:00

classified material he took from the White House following

26:02

his defeat, that turned out to be not true.

26:06

Now the Republican National Committee has hired Christina

26:08

Bob as its special counsel, that woman, special

26:11

counsel for election integrity. Michelle

26:13

Goldberg is an opinion columnist in the New York Times.

26:16

Munder Jones is a former Democratic congressman of New

26:18

York who is now running for the seat held

26:20

by Republican Congressman Mike Lawler. They join me now.

26:22

Good to have you here. Michelle, I was just,

26:25

I was so sort of struck by this reporting

26:27

about the mail-in vote thing being shut down. Because

26:30

again, it's like this is really, I can't stress

26:33

this enough, it's not an ideological issue. It's

26:35

like some people make the coffee the night before, some make it

26:37

in the morning. Doesn't mean anything

26:39

about it. Where are your views on anything? It's

26:42

so, such a tell to me they're shutting it down.

26:45

Yeah, because I think that this is

26:47

something that's common to a lot

26:49

of dictators, kind of totalitarian tyrants,

26:52

in that they insist on trying

26:54

to mold reality to their own

26:56

whims and presuppositions. We saw this

26:58

on the first day of Donald

27:00

Trump's presidency when he made Sean

27:02

Spicer go out and say those

27:04

were the biggest crowds anybody ever

27:06

saw, right? We thought, we remember

27:08

when Donald Trump changed the

27:11

weather map too, because he

27:13

had said it was going to

27:15

hit Alabama. And so, and I think

27:17

that this is quite similar. Donald Trump

27:19

has said over and over again, that

27:21

mail-in voting is fraudulent, is the reason

27:23

that the 2020 election was stolen

27:26

from him. And so the rest

27:28

of the party kind of has to

27:30

pretend as if that is the case. Even

27:32

when it's being done to the detriment

27:35

of their electoral chances. I mean, well,

27:37

there's a lot of things being done. I

27:39

mean, I would imagine, I don't know, I'm

27:41

not a Republican, I would imagine gutting the

27:43

RNC a few months before the election is

27:45

to the detriment of their electoral chances. And

27:48

all of these Republican parties that have filled

27:50

themselves up with Trumpists and devolved into infighting

27:52

and in some cases, gotten your bankruptcy is

27:54

also not good for their electoral chances. But

27:56

you know, field teams is the leader, Trump's

27:58

back. that. You

28:02

run races and you

28:04

know the importance of voter mobilization voter

28:06

turnout and also how useful voting ahead

28:08

of election day is for a campaign

28:11

because you've got a list. You

28:13

know, a lot of cases you just you kind of

28:15

know a big bunch of voters. Oh, we got to

28:17

go talk to this person. Oh, they already voted. Yeah,

28:19

that that helps. These

28:21

guys are not interested in legitimately winning

28:23

elections, right? They are laying the groundwork

28:26

to overturn the national. So

28:28

while they're putting in the effort now, like it's

28:30

like I want to be like, dude, you're it's

28:32

a neck and neck race. You're pulling up right

28:34

now. Like, just try to win it the

28:38

right way. Well, it's why it's so

28:40

important that there be a democratic house,

28:42

for example, in January of

28:44

next year to certify a hopefully free

28:46

and fair election. And we have no

28:48

reason to believe the election won't be

28:50

for us other than the nonsense that

28:52

Donald Trump and his Republican supporters in

28:55

Congress are pushing about voting

28:57

by mail, for example, one of

28:59

the crazy inversions that's now happened. I want

29:01

to get both of your thoughts on this

29:03

from different perspectives. For the 20 years that

29:05

I've covered politics, okay, it's basically

29:07

always been this Democrats have a lot of

29:10

marginal voters. And I don't mean I mean

29:12

marginal a sense of they sometimes vote, they

29:14

sometimes don't. They don't maybe they vote in

29:16

the left presidential not in midterms. And

29:18

they need an operation that identifies those voters and

29:20

gets on turnout. We are seeing a

29:23

real inversion happen. If you look at all the polling,

29:25

the people, the least regular voters

29:27

are the people that are most Biden

29:30

is most losing to Trump. And

29:32

the people who are the most stalwart are the one or

29:34

the groups that are holding the most steady. This is a

29:36

real inversion that's happening for the first time. How

29:38

do you think that changes

29:41

everyone's calculations? I'm not sure that

29:43

it is changing everyone's calculations. I mean, again,

29:45

you would think that it would create the

29:47

sort of incentives that you were talking about

29:49

earlier to bank your voters early. So like making

29:52

easier to vote, you think it would change the

29:54

partisan balance of the whole thing? Well, I'm not

29:56

sure how much Donald Trump has internalized the

29:58

fact that that

30:02

kind of greater voter turnout could actually

30:04

benefit him. I don't think

30:06

the Republican party as a whole has

30:08

internalized that. And on the flip side,

30:10

it's also the reason that Democrats shouldn't

30:13

take too much comfort from the fact

30:15

that we keep, or that they keep

30:17

doing better than the polls suggesting these

30:19

special elections. Right, because as it's become

30:21

a more educated, upper middle class party,

30:24

the most conscientious people, the

30:26

people who are gonna vote in

30:28

a special election off your primary,

30:30

those people are often Democrats, but

30:33

you need people who are only,

30:36

the people, for example, who in polls

30:38

don't know who is responsible, don't know

30:40

which candidate is responsible for Roe versus

30:42

Wade getting overturned. Those are

30:44

the candidates that Trump needs. Relatedly,

30:47

this is the natural consequence of a

30:49

party that knows it cannot appeal to

30:51

a majority of voters based on its

30:53

policy agenda, right? I mean, imagine if

30:56

Republicans like my opponent, Mike Lawler, ran on

30:58

their opposition to the Inflation Reduction Act. This

31:00

is legislation that will cap the cost of

31:02

prescription drugs so that in next year, no

31:04

one on Medicare is gonna pay more than

31:06

$2,000 annually out of

31:09

pocket for their prescriptions. So literally, their

31:11

agenda is to raise the price of

31:13

prescription drugs for America's seniors. They can't

31:16

run on stuff like that. They have to make it. He's not gonna

31:18

run on that either. No, I mean, I'm

31:20

asking. Like, voted against the Inflation Reduction Act, there's a

31:22

universe, or there's districts where you could say you did

31:24

that, right? Or oppose it as a candidate in this

31:26

case. But the fact is, they would rather work to

31:30

overturn an election or make

31:32

it harder for people to access the ballot than

31:34

to campaign in a way that actually

31:36

appeals to the American people because their

31:39

economic agenda in particular is deeply unpopular.

31:41

And we see that also when it comes

31:43

to social issues. This IVF ruling in Alabama

31:45

is scaring the hell out of people, including

31:48

my opponent, right? But it relies on the-

31:50

I got scared of our Mike Lawler. Overturning

31:52

Roe v. Wade. I mean, it is the

31:54

same legal reasoning. So they can't run away

31:56

from something that they're on the record supporting.

31:58

Yeah, I mean, what I finally- interesting

32:00

here is that I do think these sort

32:02

of shifts in the coalition haven't sunk into

32:04

people in the different party

32:06

apparatuses, but I also do think it speaks to first

32:09

principles matter. Like I do

32:12

think Democrats as a matter of first principle really

32:14

believe in voter access. Oh yeah. I think Republicans

32:16

like as a matter of first principle increasingly don't.

32:18

And so you get what you get, Michelle Goldberg

32:20

and Mount D'Argo, and thank you both. Still

32:23

to come as Republicans continue their assault

32:25

on women's rights, Vice President Harris makes

32:27

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33:02

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33:07

America, it's Ted from Consumer Cellular, the guy in

33:09

the orange sweater, and this is your wake-up call.

33:11

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33:13

the perfect time to switch and save. For a

33:15

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33:17

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33:34

details. If

33:37

you've been paying attention to polling and

33:40

the primary results, you know a consistent

33:42

theme is just how strong of an

33:44

appeal Donald Trump holds for self-identified evangelical

33:46

Christians. The thing about

33:49

elections is that they are one at the

33:51

margins and a deeper look at exit polling

33:53

shows Trump's performance with evangelicals actually declined between

33:55

2016 and 2020. In

33:58

2016, he won a $20,000 prize. 80%

34:01

of the evangelical vote with just 16% voting for Hillary Clinton. By

34:03

2020, Trump was only winning 76%

34:08

of evangelicals with 24% voted

34:10

for Joe Biden. That is a sizable

34:12

shift, especially since evangelicals made up

34:14

slightly more of the 2020 electorate than 2016. It

34:16

really matters what Trump's

34:20

margins are with those voters, particularly

34:22

in tightly contested swing states. There

34:25

doesn't seem to be a ton of Democratic

34:27

outreach directed at trying to win over those

34:29

gettable evangelicals, which is where Pastor Doug Padgett

34:32

comes in. He's an evangelical

34:34

Christian pastor, founder of the group Vote

34:36

Common Good, and goes around to all

34:39

sorts of events, including outside Trump rallies

34:41

and right-wing border protests and evangelical gatherings.

34:44

His pitch is pretty simple. Voting for

34:46

Donald Trump is not a requirement to

34:48

be aligned with your faith. I

34:50

got a chance to sit down to talk to him

34:52

in the latest episode of my podcast. Why is this

34:54

happening? We know

34:57

there's a lot of people who are heartbroken by

34:59

the kind of experience that they're having right now,

35:01

where they're having to choose between their faith that's

35:03

meaningful to them and a political identity that that

35:06

was wedded together. They didn't even know the two

35:08

came as a package deal. We like

35:10

to say it's like pulling into a Wendy's drive-through and you

35:12

just order the number two and it comes with the fries.

35:15

So you said yes to your

35:17

faith and you didn't know it came with a side

35:19

dish of being a Republican for the rest of your

35:21

life. I remember sitting on my couch on

35:23

election night in 2016 and feeling

35:26

like something has changed

35:28

for me. I cannot keep moving in

35:30

the evangelical spaces. Even though I was

35:32

in the progressive evangelical spaces and inclusive

35:35

evangelical spaces, I could

35:37

no longer say to myself that

35:39

that community that was necessary

35:41

for Donald Trump's success in the

35:44

in the campaign was a different community

35:46

than me. Low Common Good is a direct response to

35:49

that. It's trying to seek an answer to that question.

35:51

So we've spent a lot of time and a lot

35:53

of time talking with voters. We travel the country. We

35:55

meet with people. We meet with pastors. We do trainings.

35:58

We've been all over this all over this country. question. It

36:01

was a really, really fascinating conversation. It's

36:03

available now. You can scan

36:06

that QR code on your screen

36:08

or just search for Chris Hayes

36:10

wherever you get your podcasts to

36:13

give it a listen. Today,

36:18

Vice President Kamala Harris toured a planned

36:20

parenthood facility in St. Paul, Minnesota. It

36:22

is believed to be the first time

36:24

that a sitting vice president or president

36:26

has visited a clinic

36:28

that provides abortion services. At

36:31

a concern about anti-abortion protests, the vice

36:33

president's office did not release the location

36:35

of the clinic in advance of her

36:37

visit. She spoke after the

36:39

tour saying she met with about two

36:41

dozen healthcare workers who were, quote, providing

36:43

healthcare in a safe place that gives

36:45

people dignity. She also said

36:47

she specifically chose to go to

36:49

the Twin Cities because in the

36:52

aftermath of the Supreme Court's dog's

36:54

ruling overturning Roe v. Wade, Minnesota

36:56

has protected abortion rights affirmatively and

36:58

been providing care to an influx of

37:00

patients from out of state as other

37:02

states around it have restricted access. Please

37:06

do understand that when we talk

37:09

about a clinic such as this,

37:11

it is absolutely about healthcare and

37:13

reproductive healthcare. So everyone get

37:15

ready for the language, uterus. That

37:21

part of the body needs a lot of medical care

37:23

from time to time. If

37:27

you like fibroids, we

37:29

can handle this. Breast

37:32

cancer screening, contraceptive

37:36

care, that

37:39

is the kind of work that happens here

37:42

in addition, of course, to abortion care. So

37:45

to have laws in states that

37:47

have caused clinics like this to

37:50

shut down so

37:52

that women have no access within any

37:55

reasonable distance of where they live

37:57

to get this vital care. that

38:01

is necessary to address their health

38:03

needs and concerns. How

38:06

dare. These elected

38:08

leaders believe they are in

38:11

a better position to tell women

38:13

what they need, to tell

38:15

women what is in their best interest. We

38:18

have to be a nation that trusts women.

38:22

Minitamaraju is the President and CEO of Reproductive Freedom

38:25

for all and she joins me now. It's nice

38:27

to have you here in studio. I

38:29

was, you know, it was striking to

38:31

me when this visit was announced and then everyone sort of

38:33

did a little bit of the research and the math to

38:36

be like, oh has this happened before? It's

38:38

never happened before. What

38:40

does it mean? What's the significance of it happening

38:43

today? You know, you talked

38:45

about the security issues, right? You know, I worked at Planned

38:47

Parenthood in Texas from the beginning of my career and

38:50

we would have to walk through throngs

38:52

of protesters, death threats

38:54

to our providers. We had doctors

38:56

wearing bulletproof vests to go to work. This

38:58

was pre-dots. This was like in the

39:01

heart of some of the most intense sites post

39:03

Planned Parenthood to be Casey. So

39:05

when the restrictions became really outrageous.

39:07

So that's why you don't

39:09

often see folks go. That's interesting. So

39:12

I think it's important to remember that... Just

39:14

like the security situation that abortion clinics across

39:16

the country has been so bad

39:18

and so scary and so difficult. Right?

39:20

The death of George Tiller. So... That's a

39:22

Kansas OBGYN who was killed by

39:26

anti-abortion extremists. Right. So that's

39:28

the context I think for this and it's important

39:31

for your viewers to remember the history

39:33

here. But what Kamala Harris did today

39:35

was so critical because post-dobs, you know,

39:37

we've done a great job of telling

39:40

the stories of the patients, Kate Cox,

39:42

Amanda Zierowski, Brittany Watts. But we haven't

39:44

necessarily dug into the impact on providers

39:47

and providers being criminalized, being

39:49

prosecuted, being threatened, creating like

39:52

reproductive healthcare deserts in critical parts

39:54

of the country. This is the

39:56

other story and it really, really

39:58

makes the American public... angry. And

40:00

it's important that she went to a

40:03

Planned Parenthood specifically, and she raised

40:05

the alarm. One of the

40:07

things that's so striking about this insane

40:10

patchwork that the Supreme Court has visited

40:12

upon us is

40:14

that you've now got different

40:16

rights at the most core level from

40:18

state to state. Right. Totally. And

40:21

so there's a number of ramifications of that.

40:23

One of the things, you

40:25

know, that the vice president is highlighting

40:27

today is that North and South Dakota, which are next

40:29

to Minnesota, are

40:32

states that have banned abortion. That's right. Those

40:34

are states, but again, we're free citizens in a country

40:36

where you can move state to state, although there is

40:39

legislation moving in states to try to stop that.

40:41

Maybe not for abortion. Maybe if you're not an

40:44

abortion provider. So that's why California, New York,

40:46

other states are looking into these shield laws

40:48

to protect providers and doctors who are licensed

40:50

in one state and need to provide care

40:52

in another. So the

40:54

licensing question is, there was an article yesterday, I believe

40:57

I read, and I guess it's an obvious point that

40:59

I hadn't quite thought of, which is medical

41:01

education happens across this country in different states.

41:03

That's right. This is a key part

41:06

of women's reproductive health and

41:08

a key thing for doctors to learn

41:10

how to do. I've talked to medical

41:12

students who have said that they changed

41:14

their plans for residency, for training, because

41:16

they can't get the training to do

41:19

critical care. You literally can't learn how

41:21

to do this care in 20, however

41:23

many states. Even before jobs, and I

41:25

know you've covered this, there were already

41:27

impacts on hospitals and teaching hospitals,

41:30

Catholic hospitals prohibiting their students

41:32

from learning this care. So there's been an all

41:34

out attack and it's worse now. You

41:36

are from Texas. You just said you got your start

41:39

there. I was really struck by this ruling that came

41:41

down from the Fifth Circuit. So

41:43

the Fifth Circuit is notorious as

41:45

the most aggressively right-wing court in

41:47

the nation, is particularly aggressive on

41:50

issues of reproductive choice. A father

41:53

who has sued

41:55

to stop federally

41:59

funded... clinics for providing contraception to

42:01

his teenage daughters. Now, he stipulates in

42:04

his filing they haven't tried to get

42:06

contraception. He has no stated injury. It's

42:08

all hypothetical. Someday it might happen. And

42:12

the Fifth Circuit has ruled in his favor. In

42:15

part, yes. In part, a district court

42:17

correctly reasoned the father alleges injuries to

42:19

his religious exercises and parental rights that

42:21

have perennially been honored by American courts.

42:24

For example, he claims the policy burdens

42:26

his right to exercise his Christian belief

42:28

his minor children should abstain from premarital

42:30

sex. They

42:32

want to restrict access to contraception.

42:34

They keep saying out of one side of

42:37

their mouth they don't. And then

42:39

when you look at what conservatives are doing

42:41

in the courts and how they're proceeding, they

42:43

do. It gets weirder. So this comes out

42:45

of Judge Matthew Kaczmarek's court. He's

42:47

the guy, the Missy Pristone case

42:49

is going to Supreme Court next week, the

42:51

medication abortion, fact or abortion ban. Then it

42:53

goes to the Fifth Circuit and the judge

42:55

who ruled is the same judge as the

42:57

Hobby Lobby case. And

42:59

Jonathan Mitchell, the attorney, is a notorious

43:02

Trump crony. So it's all of the

43:04

things you cover. It's all of Project

43:06

2025 encapsulated in one crazy case. Well, and

43:08

they're doing the exact same thing they do in the

43:10

Pristone. That's right. If yours remember,

43:12

you've got Amarillo,

43:15

Texas has one district judge. You find

43:17

a reason to file there. A Trump

43:19

organization there. You create an organization. Then

43:21

you get Judge Kaczmarek. You know what

43:23

he's going to do. It's

43:25

like throwing the ball up to a guy who's going to

43:27

dunk it. It's just very easy. You put it up there.

43:29

He grabs it, he puts it through. And this is now

43:31

happening on this. This is separate from

43:33

the Pristone. That's right. And the Pristone, the oral arguments

43:35

are in a couple of weeks, March 26. And

43:38

this is why it's so important to be looking

43:41

at what the Biden administration and the Senate Democrats

43:43

are doing on judicial nominees and why it's so

43:45

critical that they're pushing them through and how interconnected

43:47

that process is with reproductive

43:49

rights. It also highlights the latitude

43:52

the next administration is going to

43:54

have on the levers of the

43:56

federal government independent of congressional input

43:58

to either expand or restrict. the

44:00

access women have both to reproductive services

44:02

and to contraception and to methadrostene, things

44:04

like that. Yes, and the Title 10

44:07

case is all about what the Becerra

44:09

HHS did to expand access for kids.

44:12

So it's all connected and it's important

44:14

to remember that's the contrast. Manita Maraju,

44:16

thank you very much. That

44:19

does it for All In. You can catch

44:21

us every weeknight at 8 o'clock on MSNBC.

44:23

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