0:04

Good evening from New York. I'm

0:06

Chris Hayes. Today, the U.S. military

0:08

began a long-expected military campaign in

0:11

Syria and Iraq against Iranian proxy

0:13

forces and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard

0:15

Corps, sometimes known as the Quds

0:17

Force. Those strikes were in

0:19

retaliation for that drone attack over the

0:21

weekend, which left three American Army reservists

0:23

dead and dozens more injured

0:25

in their base in Jordan. Those

0:28

strikes that killed Americans were themselves part

0:30

of a series of exchanges between various

0:32

militant groups backed by Iran and

0:34

U.S. forces that have followed the

0:36

October 7th Hamas attack in Israel

0:38

and Israel's subsequent counteroffensive in Gaza.

0:41

Right now, what you are seeing is footage

0:43

of one of today's strikes on

0:45

your screen. Per an Iraqi

0:47

security official, that that you're seeing get

0:50

hit there is a weapons warehouse in

0:52

western Iraq that belongs to an Iraqi

0:54

Shiite militia known as Khatib Hezbollah. According

0:58

to U.S. Central Command, quote, U.S. military

1:00

forces struck more than 85 targets,

1:03

which numerous aircraft, which include with

1:05

numerous aircraft to include long-range bombers

1:07

flown from the United States. The

1:10

airstrikes employed more than 125 precision munitions. The

1:14

facilities that were struck included

1:16

command and control operations, centers,

1:18

intelligence centers, rockets and missiles,

1:20

and unmanned aired vehicle storages

1:22

and logistics and munitions supply

1:24

chain facilities of militia groups

1:26

and their Iranian Revolutionary Guard

1:28

sponsors who facilitated attacks against

1:31

U.S. and coalition forces. In

1:34

a call with reporters, National Security

1:36

Council spokesman John Kirby provided more

1:38

details about those strikes. U.S.

1:42

military forces struck more than 85 targets

1:44

at seven facilities utilized by

1:47

Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps

1:50

and the militant groups that they sponsor. Three

1:53

of the facilities are in Iraq, four

1:55

of them are in Syria. Numerous

1:57

aircraft including B-1 bombers, dispatchers, and military forces.

2:00

United States were involved in this operation, firing

2:03

more than 125 precision-guided munitions over

2:06

the course of about 30 minutes. Target

2:09

facilities included command and control centers as

2:12

well as headquarters buildings and intelligence centers,

2:14

rocket, missile, and drone storage

2:17

facilities and logistics

2:19

and munitions supply chain facilities. A

2:22

statement President Joe Biden said, quote, our response

2:24

began today. It will continue at times and

2:26

places of our choosing. Secretary

2:28

of Defense Lloyd Austin went a

2:31

step further confirming, quote, the president

2:33

has directed additional actions to hold

2:35

the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and affiliate

2:37

militias accountable for their attacks on

2:39

U.S. and coalition forces. Austin

2:41

also echoed President Biden's sentiment the U.S. is

2:44

not seeking conflict in the Middle East, but

2:46

it is difficult to read today's strikes as anything

2:48

other than an escalation. Since

2:51

the October 7th Hamas attack and Israel's

2:53

subsequent bombardment and ground invasion into Gaza,

2:55

we have seen a series of conflicts

2:57

and skirmishes break out across

2:59

the wider Middle East. You see them there on the map.

3:02

That includes fire exchange between Israel and

3:04

Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon, Houthi rebels

3:06

in Yemen seizing commercial ships in

3:08

the Red Sea and U.S. strikes

3:10

in response, militia groups in Iraq

3:13

and Syria targeting American station there,

3:15

all of which culminated in

3:17

that fatal strike against American reservists in

3:19

Jordan over the weekend. It

3:22

was that last incident that President Biden

3:24

retaliated against today. It was among the

3:26

most drastic responses the U.S. could have

3:28

taken, save for striking targets within Iran

3:30

itself. And with more retaliatory

3:32

action confirmed to the future, there is of

3:34

course a risk of the conflict expanding further.

3:37

NBC News chief international correspondent Kirsimmons is

3:39

live in Earville, Iraq tonight with the

3:41

latest. Kir, what do you have? Well,

3:47

Chris, this was clearly an escalation by

3:49

the Biden administration. We haven't seen something

3:51

like this for years, but

3:53

it was also limited. So the strikes

3:55

and we're counting here because we haven't

3:58

been told exactly by the U.S. where

4:00

they took place. We are counting here

4:02

on regional reporting. The strikes appear from

4:04

that to have taken place in eastern

4:06

Syria along the border between Syria and

4:09

Iraq, along Anbar province to the place

4:11

where it meets the Jordanian border and

4:13

that Tower 22 where those

4:15

three US military

4:17

service men and women

4:19

were killed. Now, eastern Syria, Anbar

4:22

province, folks watching who know their

4:24

history will remember that those are

4:26

the kinds of places, particularly Anbar

4:28

province, for example, where the

4:30

US fought battles during the invasion

4:33

of Iraq and then, of course,

4:35

fought ISIS. So now, quite extraordinary,

4:37

isn't it, tonight to have the

4:39

US bombing Iranian-backed

4:41

militia in those same places. It

4:44

tells you something about US foreign

4:46

policy over the years. But now,

4:48

what we are seeing is clearly

4:50

an effort to send a message

4:53

to Tehran by targeting those Iranian-backed

4:55

militias and particularly, though, those in

4:58

areas closest to

5:00

Tower 22. They could have gone,

5:02

for example, to Iranian Revolutionary Guards

5:04

stations around Damascus airport. So far,

5:06

it doesn't appear they've done that.

5:08

They don't appear to have hit

5:10

high-value targets. So they've got

5:12

the... It is restricted, but it is

5:15

expiratory. And the question is going to be how

5:17

Iran responds now. Just to give you

5:20

a picture here in Iraq, in

5:23

Anbar province, they also have

5:25

hit, according to the popular

5:27

mobilization forces, a

5:29

site where they are. They are

5:31

also Iran-backed, but they're also connected to

5:33

the Iraqi government. And that just gives

5:36

you a picture, the Iraqi government, as

5:38

it would do, complaining tonight about its

5:40

sovereignty being violated. But the fact that

5:42

the US felt it needed to hit

5:44

this particular group connected to the Iraqi

5:47

army tells you something. This place,

5:49

this Iraq now, is both a

5:51

partner of the US and of

5:53

Iran. It looks in both directions.

5:55

And the challenge for the Biden

5:57

administration has been to have an

5:59

impact. without pushing Iraq closer

6:01

to Iran, which is exactly what Iran

6:03

wants, to push the U.S. out of

6:05

this region. Incredibly difficult judgments for the

6:07

Biden administration to make, and we'll see

6:10

what effect it's had as the days

6:12

play out, and we'll see what else

6:14

happens. Yeah, let me just follow

6:16

up on that, Kaira, as you are there in

6:18

Irbil, Iraq, in the north of Iraq, in the

6:20

Kurdish region there. It

6:23

is the case that the Shiite

6:25

majority of Iraq controls the government.

6:27

It is closely aligned with Iran,

6:29

and then there are a whole

6:31

bunch of militia groups that are

6:33

essentially allied with that government throughout

6:35

Iraq. The U.S. also maintains a

6:38

relationship with that government. Tonight, the

6:40

Iraqi government, and we're talking about

6:42

these strikes against Iran-backed militias, but

6:44

important to just stress this, they're

6:46

physically happening in the countries

6:48

of Syria and the sovereign nation of

6:50

Iraq. Tonight, Iraqi officials complaining about the

6:52

violation of their sovereignty, and

6:55

presumably some political ramifications, as you

6:57

noted, within Iraq tonight. That's

7:02

right, and as I say, that's the kind

7:04

of difficult calculation that the Biden administration would

7:07

have had to have made, Chris.

7:09

There is that risk, because remember that

7:11

what Iran's strategy is, is to put

7:13

pressure on Israel and try and push

7:15

the U.S. out of this region. So

7:17

if this has the impact on the

7:19

Iraqi government, that it becomes more determined

7:21

that it shouldn't have U.S. here, well,

7:23

that's playing into Iran's strategic

7:26

objectives. Another point to make, though,

7:28

too, I think, Chris, the

7:31

scale of this and the breadth of it,

7:33

although it is limited, will

7:35

put the spotlight on just

7:37

the extent to which Iran

7:39

has spread its tentacles here,

7:42

is embedded here, particularly in

7:44

Syria, and has got to

7:46

the point now where it is around Damascus,

7:48

closer and closer to the border with

7:50

Israel. And I think what we're really seeing

7:53

illuminated is one of these regional

7:55

challenges, which is about actually the

7:57

standoff between Iran and the U.S.

7:59

the U.S. and Iran and Israel. And

8:01

fundamentally, and I know you've talked about this

8:04

many times, the U.S. doesn't

8:06

seem to be seen from here. The

8:08

U.S. doesn't seem to be able to

8:10

decide whether it wants to confront Iran

8:12

or whether it wants to negotiate Iran,

8:14

what the best strategy is to try

8:17

to change Iran's strategic goals. And

8:19

I think there's a question tonight over whether

8:21

this action, substantial though it is, will move

8:23

the needle for Tehran. Great,

8:25

great reporting. As always, Keir Simmons,

8:28

so appreciative to have you reporting

8:30

live from here real or act

8:33

tonight. Thank you so much. Joining me

8:35

now is John Brennan, former director of the CIA.

8:38

And Mr. Brennan, I'd love for you to just

8:40

tell us your read

8:42

on the calculation, the very careful

8:45

calculation here tonight on these strikes

8:47

after the death of three Americans

8:49

in Jordan amidst

8:52

a series of back and forth strikes that have

8:54

happened prior to that. How

8:56

to think about what we're seeing tonight and

8:58

how that narrow calculation is being made. Well,

9:03

Chris, the Biden administration made a determination

9:05

that the recent attack against U.S. forces

9:07

in Jordan that resulted in three deaths

9:09

and over 50 wounded was

9:12

a tripwire that requires the

9:14

United States to push back

9:16

forcefully against these militias, these

9:19

proxy forces of Iran that have continued

9:21

to carry out these attacks against U.S.

9:23

presence in the region, whether it be

9:26

in Syria or Iraq, as well as

9:28

in Yemen against the targets in

9:30

the Red Sea. And so therefore,

9:32

there was a decision made that enough

9:35

is enough and that they need to severely

9:37

degrade the capabilities of these proxy

9:39

forces. Now these strikes to place

9:42

in areas of Syria and Iraq, they're basically

9:44

tribal areas. And the central governments

9:46

in Baghdad and Damascus really have

9:48

no control over these areas, which

9:50

has allowed Iran to be able to cultivate

9:53

these relationships with these tribes, giving them money,

9:55

giving them weapons, material, training, other types of

9:57

things, so that they're able to use these

10:00

tribes, these militias for their own purposes.

10:03

And so that's why if the

10:05

Iraqi government and the Syrian government are not going

10:07

to limit what these groups do and are not

10:09

going to prevent them from carrying out attacks against

10:11

US forces in the region, the United States has

10:14

to make these decisions on its own. Now,

10:16

I know that the Biden administration notified the Iraqi

10:18

government before they took strikes and

10:20

was very clear from the statement that

10:23

came out from Central Command today that

10:25

they were targeted against those elements that

10:27

were used to carry out the attack

10:29

against US forces in Jordan, but also

10:32

those where the Iranian Revolutionary

10:34

Guard Al-Quds force, which

10:36

is the component that has worked with

10:38

these groups over the course of time,

10:41

they were purposely targeted because it is

10:43

Iranian support for these

10:45

groups that allows and enables these

10:47

groups to carry out these strikes. The

10:51

groups you're talking about, there was some

10:54

discussion about, I guess my

10:56

question is, is there a calculation

10:58

on lethality here? Obviously the tripwire is

11:00

the loss of three American reservists

11:03

in that Tower 22 base in

11:05

Jordan. Is there a calculation

11:07

here, again, it's a sort of macabre

11:09

calculation of essentially life for

11:11

life, eye for eye, but what is

11:14

there a level of lethality intentionally

11:17

targeted as the means

11:19

of deterrence? Well,

11:22

I think it's more to degrade and to

11:24

take away the capability of these forces to

11:26

carry out these strikes. Yes, there

11:29

will be casualties. There will be individuals who will

11:31

be killed. There will be Iranians from members of

11:33

the Al-Quds force that are embedded with these forces.

11:35

But it's clear that I think the main

11:38

element within Iraq in this area

11:40

that is a proxy force of

11:42

Iran is Qatayib Hezbollah. And

11:44

it's been many years that Iran has been

11:47

able to develop relations with them and continues

11:49

to give them the capability to carry out

11:51

these attacks. So the Biden

11:53

administration, I think, central command was very,

11:55

very purposeful and careful in terms of

11:57

where they were targeting. The number of

11:59

strikes was not that... large, the number

12:02

of munitions used, clearly there was large

12:04

munitions that B-1 bombers came in to

12:06

destroy the capabilities to take away the

12:08

training places, the weapons depots, the

12:10

command and control centers, maybe the underground

12:13

tunnels where they store some of these

12:15

munitions and other materiel. So I

12:17

think what they're trying to do is degrade the

12:19

capabilities, take away the ability of these groups to

12:21

carry out these attacks. Yes, there will

12:23

be individuals that are killed, but it's not to

12:26

avenge the death of U.S. soldiers. It

12:28

is to mitigate the dangers and the

12:30

risks that these groups pose to our forces.

12:33

All right, former CIA Director John

12:35

Brennan, it's great to

12:37

have you on tonight. I appreciate it. Thanks,

12:40

Chris. Coming up, as

12:42

U.S. retaliates for the death of three service

12:44

members, Senator Tammy Baldwin and Congressman, sorry,

12:47

Senator Tammy Duckworth and Congressman Jason

12:50

Crow, both Iraq War veterans join

12:52

me next. On

12:55

the MSNBC podcast, How to Win

12:57

2024, political experts, former Senator Claire

12:59

McCaskill and Democratic strategist Jennifer Palmieri

13:01

examine the campaign strategies unfolding in

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2024, we have to be able

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13:57

Tonight, the United States launched. In

14:00

a statement about the operation, President Joe Biden delivered a

14:02

clear warning, quote, the

14:12

United States does not seek conflict in the Middle East or

14:15

anywhere else in the world. Let all

14:17

those who might seek to do us harm know this. If

14:20

you harm an American, we will respond. Earlier

14:23

today, President Biden joined the grieving families

14:25

of those fallen soldiers. The

14:27

most solemn ceremonies, the dignified transfer

14:30

of their remains. Sergeants

14:32

William Rivers, Kennedy Sanders and Brianna

14:34

Moffat were members of the Army

14:36

Reserve based at Fort Moore,

14:39

Georgia. A cousin described

14:41

46-year-old Rivers as a family man with a

14:43

heart of gold who loved serving his country,

14:46

he leaves behind a wife and a teenage son.

14:49

24-year-old Kennedy Sanders was a talented athlete

14:51

who coached middle school basketball when she

14:53

was not on military duty. Her

14:56

father Sean told NBC News he was very proud of

14:58

his daughter, but a bright future in front of her.

15:01

Brianna Moffat was proud to follow in her

15:03

mother's footsteps to join the military. Her parents

15:05

called her, quote, the light of everything. She

15:07

walked into a room and she commanded attention.

15:10

Moffat, seen there, was just 23 years old.

15:14

Senator Tammy Duckworth is in

15:16

the Army Services Committee, also retired

15:18

Army Lieutenant Colonel and Iraq War

15:20

veteran, and she joins me now.

15:23

Your reaction to the

15:26

news we're getting tonight about the scope

15:28

and targets of this

15:31

set of American strikes and retaliation for

15:33

what happened this weekend? I

15:37

thought it was a

15:39

good balance of showing

15:42

the might of the United States military and

15:44

what we can do. I mean, the breadth

15:46

of the number of targets, 85 of them,

15:49

the swiftness of the attack, it only

15:51

took 30 minutes. But

15:53

also with the President's very careful

15:56

statements saying that we do not

15:58

seek war in the Middle East. I think

16:00

it sent a strong message, but also said, okay, we don't

16:02

want war, but if you want to go to war,

16:04

this is what we got. And I

16:06

thought it was a nice balancing act on the part of

16:08

the president. I

16:10

wanted to get your

16:13

thoughts as someone who served in combat

16:15

in Iraq. In fact, if

16:17

I'm not mistaken, it was just about 20 years ago this

16:21

year that your helicopter were shot down

16:23

there while you were working

16:25

as a combat pilot. That

16:28

20 years later that we face

16:30

a situation in which that government is very

16:33

bound to Iran, that they're running back to

16:35

militias there, and that here we are in

16:37

the year 2024 striking

16:40

inside Iraq. Yeah,

16:42

and we only just voted

16:45

to repeal the AUMF, the Authorization for Use

16:47

of Military Force, last year that went all

16:49

the way back to the beginning of the

16:51

war, and we still have one that is

16:53

still in effect. So my

16:55

thoughts are really worried about what

16:58

some of my Republican colleagues, right

17:00

after the tragedy about three heroes

17:02

being killed, so many of my

17:04

Republican colleagues just made these really

17:07

inflammatory statements like take it to

17:09

Tehran, calling recklessly

17:11

for a retaliation. And I

17:13

certainly want to retaliate. I'm heartbroken that

17:15

our service members were killed and so

17:18

many were wounded, but also we have

17:20

to be careful that we don't escalate

17:22

ourselves into another war, another endless war.

17:25

That's right. This year is my 20th year since

17:27

I was wounded in Iraq, and it took 19

17:30

years for us to repeal the AUMF. So

17:32

we have to be very careful that as

17:34

we respond, we don't get ourselves into the

17:37

path with no off-ramp towards a war in

17:39

the Middle East yet again. The best thing

17:41

we can do to honor our service members is

17:43

to make sure we don't send them into harm's way in

17:46

a thoughtless manner. Do

17:49

you have thoughts about just where

17:51

we are in the broader trajectory of

17:53

the conflict there? Obviously,

17:55

there is longstanding context for the conflict,

17:57

of course, which is the aftermath,

18:00

the Iraq War, the sort of standing up

18:02

of a variety of Iranian proxies throughout the

18:04

region, which they call an axis of resistance.

18:08

And that's part of this context here. Part

18:11

of it is the closer context, of

18:13

course, of the Hamas attack on Israel,

18:15

October 7, and the ongoing Israeli counteroffensive,

18:18

and what that has done

18:21

to the region and how

18:23

that has incited some escalation

18:25

by a variety of those Iranian

18:27

groups. Well,

18:29

Iran has been backing all of these

18:32

groups all over. And I think what this shows

18:34

us is the breadth of their

18:36

involvement. And remember that it's not

18:38

just the terrorists that are carrying

18:40

out these groups, but Iran is

18:42

now backed as opposition leaders

18:44

who have been elected to the Iraqi parliament.

18:47

You know, when we helped the Iraqis write

18:49

the constitution and set up a new parliament

18:52

and their Supreme Court in Iraq after the war, I

18:55

don't think we ever dreamt that Iran would

18:58

actually be a proxy actor with

19:00

people elected to the Iraqi parliament.

19:03

It's absolutely astonishing. And I think where

19:05

we are right now is a

19:08

reaction to the ongoing efforts to

19:10

normalize relations between Israel and other

19:12

Middle Eastern nations. You have the

19:14

Abraham Accords, Saudi

19:16

Arabia and Israel were on the verge of

19:18

signing an agreement when Hamas attacked. I

19:21

think all of these things are connected. But

19:23

I think this retaliation tonight by the

19:26

president sent a very strong message to

19:28

Iran that enough is enough

19:30

and you need to call back some of these proxy groups. All

19:33

right, Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. Thank

19:36

you so much for making time for us. I appreciate it. My

19:39

pleasure. Congressman Jason Crowe is

19:41

a Democrat of Colorado who sits on the Foreign

19:43

Affairs Committee. He's a former Army Ranger who served

19:45

three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. And

19:48

he joins me now. Congressman, your

19:51

thoughts on the strikes that have been announced

19:53

tonight? Good

19:56

evening. I agree with Senator Duckworth that

19:58

this appears to be... a

20:01

good response that shows strength, shows

20:03

capability, and retaliates for the deploying

20:05

of our soldiers, but

20:08

also avoids de-escalation. So

20:10

that's the near-term analysis, but the

20:13

long-term analysis, also as Senator Duckworth

20:15

aptly pointed out, must be,

20:17

how does this serve our

20:20

longer-term interests? What is the endgame here? You

20:22

know, most of my adult life, we've been

20:24

fighting and have had conflict in the Middle

20:26

East. So we very clearly

20:28

need a different model. We've

20:30

been walking around carrying a hammer for the last

20:32

couple of decades. Every problem looks like a nail.

20:35

So what does a different model

20:37

look like that can actually de-escalate

20:39

and change the entire scenario

20:41

long-term for the Middle East? And that's the discussion

20:44

that's really important for Congress to be engaged in.

20:47

Let me ask you what that is. I mean, I

20:49

was struck tonight, you said, for most of your life,

20:52

I think we're around the same age, Congressman. I

20:54

remember the Gulf War was when I was 11 in 1990. I'm

20:59

44 now, so 33 years that some

21:01

sort of U.S. military activity directed at

21:03

Iraq has been happening, three-quarters of

21:06

my life. When you say changing

21:09

that model, what do you mean by that?

21:13

Well, you know, we, for a

21:15

very long time, have over-relied, this is

21:17

my opinion, we have over-relied a military

21:19

force. The problem with that,

21:22

and don't get me wrong, there is absolutely

21:24

a time and place to use military force.

21:27

I completely agree with the president

21:29

in these retaliation strikes that

21:33

are meant to re-establish deterrence. But

21:36

we continue to do this over and over

21:38

again. So let's look at

21:40

how do we readjust the proportion of

21:43

the various tools in our toolbox, humanitarian,

21:46

diplomatic, economic, and military.

21:48

How do we find a better

21:50

proportion, and how do we

21:52

leverage all of those tools to

21:55

better achieve an end that we frankly have not been able

21:57

to achieve? So my argument is, my thesis here is that

21:59

we can't do it. is we have not brought

22:01

the right proportion of those tools to bear. And

22:04

that's why we continue to have to use

22:06

military force over and over again here. Let

22:09

me follow up and ask about diplomatic

22:11

channels with Iran. Obviously, there's a number

22:13

of interesting diplomatic channels that have developed

22:15

recently. There's a

22:18

Qatari channel through which US

22:21

negotiators, including the director of CIA, William

22:25

Burns, has been involved in

22:27

negotiations with the Israelis

22:29

and Hamas representatives through the Qataris

22:31

for some kind of exchange

22:34

of cessation of hostilities for mass

22:36

release of hostages in Gaza.

22:42

There is no real Iran

22:44

channel of diplomacy active

22:47

right now. There was one that tried

22:49

to revive that nuclear deal the Trump

22:52

administration ripped up. There's some channel through

22:54

the Qataris, but do you think that's

22:56

something that's needed lacking?

23:00

Well, I'm almost always a proponent

23:02

of establishing some method of communication

23:05

to avoid misunderstanding. Because when you

23:07

have very large and

23:09

capable militaries that have significant capabilities

23:11

that are operating in close proximity

23:13

to one another, a very

23:16

easy way for this to go awry

23:18

is for actions to be misunderstood. And

23:21

that's why making sure that the

23:23

retaliatory strikes that the administration took

23:25

today were carefully calibrated

23:27

for strategic and were

23:29

surgical, because the misunderstanding is exactly

23:32

how this turns into a larger

23:34

Middle East conflict with very large

23:36

militaries fighting each other directly. And

23:38

where you have not a few

23:40

soldiers being killed, which is

23:42

a terrible tragedy in and of itself.

23:45

You have very large numbers of soldiers meeting

23:47

themselves in the battlefield, which is what we

23:49

want to avoid at all costs here, if

23:51

we can. Let me ask

23:53

you this, a slightly political

23:55

question or a question about your constituents

23:57

in your district. How, how...

24:00

The minors us for for the folks at

24:02

the he represent in in the third district.

24:04

our. First

24:06

very copper mine in I have the

24:08

honor of represent one of the most

24:11

diverse congressional districts in the nation. He.

24:13

Twenty percent of my constituents were born

24:16

outside of the United States. I have

24:18

one hundred and thirty languages spoken in

24:20

my community. You. Know have a

24:22

large Jewish community on a large Arab

24:24

community of a Palestinian diaspora us off

24:26

and engaging with these folks some weekly

24:28

as over the last couple of months

24:31

you engage with them all and on

24:33

the last couple years you've been doing

24:35

style or the last few months to

24:37

make sure that I'm listening to them

24:39

and hearing their concerns Me figure out

24:41

how. Are we can address this

24:44

because it's now lived experience at as

24:46

informed small work. Or they have

24:48

families and loved ones who are in harm's

24:50

way whether it be and Israel or in

24:52

Gaza. In I held a round

24:54

table a couple of months ago where some

24:56

of the Palestinian members of my community and

24:59

one gentleman told me that he lost fifty

25:01

members of his family. And. The last

25:03

couple of months is the number of one family.

25:06

It's truly. Headphones

25:08

My work to make sure that we are

25:10

putting humanity first For putting the protection of

25:12

civilians first. Norma One Army Ranger As your

25:15

three combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, what

25:17

am I learn? and that time. To.

25:19

That the protection of civilians and

25:21

conflict zones it is a mess

25:24

in the central North. And. South

25:26

Secondary is not a distraction we

25:28

can achieve Know mission. And

25:30

you can make nobody suffer from us.

25:32

Civilians are protected and that have already

25:34

at amazon a lot of work or

25:37

last couple years to. Further,

25:39

his ankle. Cars. And

25:41

Jason projects six district officer

25:43

I mess up their discover

25:45

sex district Colorado. I'm thanking us.

25:47

Our congressmen appreciate it. Thank

25:50

you. so much more on tonight

25:52

strikes in iraq and syria but first there's

25:55

also a big news on the trials and

25:57

entrepreneur timeline of his insurrection case that up

25:59

the Next. We

26:07

also have some breaking news tonight in

26:10

the many legal cases facing Donald Trump.

26:12

Judge Tanya Chutkin just formally canceled Trump's

26:14

election interference trial that had been scheduled

26:16

for March 4th, writing that, quote, the

26:19

court will set a new schedule if

26:21

and when the mandate is returned. The

26:24

mandate, of course, is the long awaited

26:26

decision by the appellate court on the

26:28

ex-presidents claim of absolute immunity from prosecution.

26:31

Until that ruling, which

26:33

we're still waiting for, we won't know when

26:35

or if the DC trial, arguably the

26:37

most important trial in

26:40

recent American history and certainly of the

26:42

four criminal cases against Trump, will happen.

26:45

Just the kind of delay he wants. Joining

26:47

me now, Harry Littman, former Deputy Assistant Attorney

26:49

General, the Department of Justice. Let's

26:52

just start with this. I mean, I think

26:54

this is just acknowledging what everyone knew to

26:56

be true and is essentially just a kind

26:58

of administrative move that would highlight the fact

27:00

that it's now been three or four

27:02

weeks, I think, and we still don't

27:04

have anything from the DC circuit. Yeah,

27:06

24 days. And yes,

27:08

it's administrative. The mandate is what one

27:10

needs for jurisdiction. So in that sense,

27:12

she says, not my case

27:15

anymore, but that if and

27:17

when, kind of, you know, sort of

27:19

wasps off the page. You can almost

27:21

tear a sigh of frustration with it.

27:23

You know, DC circuit, what about? Is

27:25

there an if here? Will I ever

27:27

see it again? So,

27:30

you know, yes, a kind of checking

27:32

of a box, but a little bit

27:34

almost frustrated and poignant. Yeah,

27:37

I got that too. I mean, I don't know. Maybe I'm reading into

27:39

it, but I thought the F and one was striking. Let's

27:42

talk about... You didn't need the if.

27:45

Yeah, that's right. She didn't have to

27:47

work if, yeah. So let's talk about

27:49

two other cases here. So one is

27:51

the there's another thing we're

27:54

waiting for, which is the ruling by

27:56

Judge Goren In New York State

27:58

Court, where there's a civil... Fraud trial

28:00

and we have a development there

28:02

which is that the the The

28:04

For Finance sheath on why Solberg

28:07

is in negotiations to plead guilty

28:09

to perjury for testimony. During.

28:11

The Civil Fraud trial was part of the

28:13

agreement he would have to me he lied

28:16

on the witness stand. In the recent Zone

28:18

fraud trial it would likely not require to

28:20

turn as far avast the potential agreement and

28:22

strengthen Brags Hand for the former Presidents trial

28:24

can deter other witnesses and mister from circle

28:27

from lying on the stand when he mechanists.

28:30

For he's become the human pit not

28:33

offer Donald Trump like the automate. Whatever

28:35

Trump touches dies right. There's a poignancy

28:37

to to it and and he's just

28:40

he just sits there and take sick

28:42

as he and he doesn't want to

28:44

cooperate. It's a pretty interesting I think

28:46

the perjury fiscal concern his testimony that

28:49

he didn't really care about the ten

28:51

thousand versus thirty thousand foot discrepancies in

28:53

the apartment is, but it's clear that

28:56

he said he did, so that's that's

28:58

not part of the of the case

29:00

that. Was is now being

29:02

pursued but prosecutors don't like perjury

29:05

very much and you know they

29:07

came after and by just what

29:09

a com leave really you know

29:11

defeated shell of a man seventy

29:13

six years old and just standing

29:16

there and and and having to

29:18

take it for his lifelong our

29:20

loyalty to said. Fred Trump

29:22

and Donald Trump Jr. Easy. Now he's

29:24

the ultimate kind of road kill here.

29:27

Yeah. So cigarette point and also and

29:29

but I'm sorry one more thing cause

29:31

of and and and or and said

29:33

the thirty First and you know that

29:35

fifth that fit two weeks later. That's

29:37

that's a long time. So I think

29:39

one can surmise that both this fact

29:42

and he doesn't know any more than

29:44

we do. They don't tell him and

29:46

the and the for da's office but

29:48

that that was over my plead guilty

29:50

and also the of report we got

29:52

from Judge Jones would set out all

29:54

these ongoing problems those may well figure

29:56

in anger and. Calculation of panel

29:58

the need. There for certain protections

30:01

and the like. So I think that's

30:03

the most likely explanation for why we're

30:05

going to more weeks at a finally

30:08

here on the Georgia case. of course,

30:10

allegations of impropriety leveraged in both the

30:12

press and also in a court filing

30:15

against disk tourney. Funny well as for

30:17

what what as. The. Opposing

30:19

counsel had contended was an improper

30:22

relationship with Nathan. Wade was an

30:24

attorney who's been an outsider. Harry

30:26

Bronze the office her filing today

30:29

Basically top line is yes, they

30:31

had a relationship. Know. It

30:33

is an improper doesn't rise to

30:35

any level of anything that should

30:38

affect. Her involvement in the case. What

30:40

do you think of her? filing? Hundred

30:42

percent true under Georgia law see needed

30:45

to do it. You know the law

30:47

of these kinds of scandals as get

30:49

it all out early. the three years

30:52

by now. they're sort of blood in

30:54

the water. You have one of these

30:56

Have you know, phony Baloney Special Investigative

30:58

Commissions in Georgia? No, no, no other

31:01

than Jim Jordan subpoenaed, heard a day

31:03

or Mcafee is gonna have a hearing

31:05

on the fifties and orderly. Even before

31:08

this, he started an evidentiary hearing. So.

31:10

What sort of evidence is it gonna take? That

31:12

could be a bit of a circus and this

31:14

could continue even though it should be the end

31:17

of it. There's no conflict here. Aka.

31:19

Heroin meant Thank you very much. Thank

31:22

you Chris of next much more in the Us

31:24

Military strikes Iraq and Syria. The wrong Iran has

31:26

played in the Middle East. will be right back.

31:29

Former. President Donald Trump is facing

31:31

ninety one indictment charges is he

31:34

remains the Republican front runner on

31:36

Msnbc podcast. Prosecuting Donald's veteran prosecutors

31:38

Andrew Weissmann and Mary Mccord break

31:40

down the biggest legal developments and

31:42

how they could. Also, the election

31:44

never had a presence. Contact

31:47

running for office he is using

31:50

the criminal cases or his own

31:52

campaigning search for prosecuting Donald Trump.

31:55

Where ever you get your podcast

31:57

new episodes every Tuesday for itself.

32:00

The creators Mike Judge and Zach Williams, a

32:02

new semi-animated Peacock original series, in

32:04

the know, follows Lauren Caspi, Public Radio's

32:07

third most popular host. Fabian, you had

32:09

the research for the first guest? This

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just says straight white woman. He's a

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well-meaning center-left bougouan nimrod and a stop-motion

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puppet. Showtime! The show

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features interviews with real human guests.

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Whoo! Hell yeah! Included Ben Wolfhard,

32:22

Tegan and Sarah. And Mike Tyson.

32:24

Hey, I like that. In the

32:26

know, he's streaming now only on

32:28

Peacock. The

32:34

U.S. military aircraft has struck more than 85 targets

32:37

in Syria and Iraq in retaliation for

32:39

the drone attack last weekend that killed three

32:42

American soldiers. This could be the beginning of

32:44

a long campaign in the

32:46

Middle East. The White House is

32:48

simultaneously trying to push through a

32:50

ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. President

32:53

Biden saying today that the retaliatory strikes,

32:55

quote, will continue at times and places

32:57

of our choosing. NBC News

32:59

foreign correspondent Matt Bradley is in Tel

33:02

Aviv for us tonight. Matt, of course,

33:04

the October 7th attack by

33:06

Hamas into Israel, the Israeli response, the kind

33:08

of sort of first

33:10

domino here for this round of

33:12

strikes and counter-strikes throughout the region.

33:14

There has been a lot of

33:16

negotiations happening, a lot of discussion

33:18

about a possible deal. The U.S.

33:20

sending CIA Director William Burns into

33:23

talks. What's the latest? How did

33:25

these strikes and escalation look from

33:27

that perspective there in Tel Aviv?

33:31

Yeah, I mean, the way that the

33:33

Israelis are going to look at this

33:35

is as the holistic approach that Iran

33:37

has been taking to the entire region.

33:39

And I think you guys have probably

33:41

spoken about this, the so-called axis of

33:43

resistance, all of these proxy groups and

33:46

in certain cases nations that are backed

33:48

by Iran. And we're talking about Hezbollah

33:50

in Lebanon, the Houthis in Yemen, these

33:52

popular mobilization forces in Iraq and Syria.

33:54

You know, and so Israel has

33:56

constantly been beating the drum, saying that

33:59

Iran is... The problem here live in

34:01

doing this relief The better part of

34:03

our generation of So and Hamas is

34:06

part of that. Hamas also benefits from

34:08

a Ronnie in large as. but when

34:10

it comes to these strikes now we're

34:13

about to see Anthony Blinken making his

34:15

next trip to the recent his fifth

34:17

trip is the Us Secretary of State's

34:20

isn't to be traveling all around here

34:22

in Israel, but also to American allies

34:24

like Egypt and Saudi Arabia countries that

34:26

are very very sympathetic to the Palestinian

34:29

cause. They are close. Us allies. All

34:31

of them, almost all of them

34:33

are inimical to arrive. They see

34:35

Iran now, perhaps more than ever,

34:37

as one of the primary threats.

34:39

Because remember that even when that

34:41

October Seventh Attack happened, we were

34:43

in the midst of a normalization

34:45

of diplomacy between Israel and the

34:47

rest of the Arab world. The

34:49

October Seventh attacks and Israel's counter

34:51

attacks and and incursion into the

34:53

Gaza Strip interrupted all of that.

34:55

But we're about to see Anthony

34:57

Blinken traveling around during his shuttle

34:59

diplomacy. Shoring up Us support among

35:01

Us allies who might be very frustrated

35:04

with us support for Israel. But really

35:06

what we're seeing in the beginning here

35:08

if the biden miss her son gets

35:10

its way is a redrawing and a

35:12

real lining of the Middle East in

35:14

the Us is favor from the ashes

35:16

of this complex in the Gaza Strip.

35:19

Chris. At. Bradley reporting Live

35:21

in Tel Aviv tonight thanks for One

35:23

Monsters and and B C News contributor

35:25

support on or off sense a ways

35:27

off his several books including The Ayatollahs

35:29

Democracy and Around Him Challenge and Bangkok's

35:31

A National Security Reporter a political. Her

35:34

latest pieces on how Us Intelligence officials

35:36

estimate Stefan does not have full control

35:38

of the proxy groups that have been

35:40

firing on Us soldiers and Robin Wright

35:42

is a contributing writer and com a

35:44

sneer at her skirt around the Middle

35:46

East for decades. Her latest article discusses

35:49

how tennis Middle East conflict. Are converging

35:51

into one big war. They. Have

35:53

joined me now! Robin. Let me just start with you

35:55

and just set some contacts here because I know this

35:57

is this a sort of an important part of this.

36:00

Contact we talked about Iranian proxy groups

36:02

are running influence route the region. Is.

36:05

A new spent time in. With.

36:07

These groups and with of Americans in these groups

36:09

such as this is all sort of. Aftermath

36:12

of the Iraq War right? Iraq and

36:14

Iran are mortal enemies. They fight one

36:16

of the bloodiest wars or of the

36:18

last fifty years. Of course, the U

36:20

S comes in. We get rid of

36:22

Saddam Hussein regime change. This creates a

36:24

power vacuum. And. The Shia majority

36:27

in Iraq rises to to power

36:29

in that government. The

36:31

Arab Spring, the subsequent Syrian or worse

36:33

produces kind of. Shoes

36:35

parts of the region that are

36:37

essentially. as cure some of the same

36:39

sort of outside of the reach of sent from governments.

36:43

On the ground, what does it look

36:45

like in these areas where precisely these

36:47

groups are operating? Well.

36:50

As much as since the Iraq invasion

36:52

is really going back forty years since

36:54

the birth of Hezbollah in Lebanon with

36:56

and Nineteen Eighty Two carried out of

36:58

military strikes as a lot largest loss

37:00

of Us military life in a single

37:02

incident since he will team and world

37:04

War Two. So one of the problem

37:06

is United States is playing the sword

37:08

game and ah, Iran is playing the

37:10

long game. Worth two hundred fifty years

37:12

old And it's twenty five hundred years

37:14

old. I it's willing to invest in

37:16

the long term to get the United

37:18

States to leave the entire regions and.

37:20

It is in power. these groups, some

37:22

of which operate in terms of their

37:24

own agenda, even as they share that

37:26

strategic goal of getting the Americans out.

37:28

Ah, but you know it's it's today's

37:31

looks like the Americans have responded a.

37:34

Extensively with you know, eighty Five strikes. But

37:36

the reality is the Iranians have been doing

37:38

a ragged malicious of the doing this for

37:41

a very long time at great cost to

37:43

American life to Merrick and allies. And the

37:45

question of the day is whose stronger in

37:47

the region? America and it's allies. Or

37:50

Iran and his allies. and I think that's unclear.

37:53

There was i'm from the mouse our

37:55

nose for athletes that the as a

37:57

defining access of of the region. until

38:00

fairly recently was this sort of

38:02

Sunni-Shia, Saudi Arabia-Iran conflict. And it's

38:05

sort of getting worse and worse. And you saw

38:07

Yemen as the sort of site of it between

38:09

the different proxies they were fighting. There

38:11

was somewhat remarkably a kind of Chinese-struck

38:13

deal between the two

38:16

that really did lower the tensions between those

38:18

two. And it was that axis of

38:20

conflict that Matt was recognizing that was sort of

38:22

creating a lot of these new alliances, the ideas

38:24

of the Gulf states recognizing Israel,

38:26

right? Like we have a shared

38:28

enemy in Iran and Iran incursion

38:30

encroachment. How does the

38:33

last several months change

38:35

all of that? Well I think, I mean, interestingly

38:39

the Chinese-brokered deal between Iran and

38:41

Saudi Arabia resulted in ambassadors being

38:44

exchanged, embassies being opened, and

38:47

much more cordial relations. Yeah, a

38:49

real restoration relation that had died.

38:51

Yeah, absolutely. I think

38:53

both Saudi Arabia and Iran recognize it's in

38:55

their interest to have relations. They're always going

38:57

to be at odds.

39:00

Competitors. Competitors, yeah. The

39:02

two most powerful nations outside of

39:04

Israel in the Middle East. But

39:07

I think that the last few

39:09

months have obviously shown that Iran's

39:12

power and influence

39:15

is much greater than what most

39:17

Americans would have thought before. And

39:23

Hamas is not controlled by Iran,

39:25

obviously. It

39:27

funds much of its budget, or some

39:29

of its budget. A lot of the rest of its

39:32

budget comes from Qatar. And

39:34

certainly gives weapons and

39:36

arms to Hamas and is generally

39:38

very supportive of Hamas. It

39:40

wasn't always that way during the Syrian

39:43

war. They were on opposite sides. But

39:46

so, and there's Sunni and Iran. So

39:48

it's a very complicated situation

39:51

with Hamas, much less complicated with

39:53

Hezbollah, which are directly really

39:55

controlled by Iran. They are part of the

39:57

Islamic Republic in many ways. And

39:59

Robin, you made this... Point that I want to

40:01

come back to just about that that that

40:03

that the killing of American marines in the

40:05

barracks and lemon on Tv free which was

40:07

a sort of. Horrible tragedy. Conclusion of

40:10

that of that eighty two were which there's

40:12

a lot of sort of. Interesting.

40:15

Historical residences I think now I'm and I want

40:17

to get your great reporting her Bank of Whom

40:19

and and Robin stay with me were much more.

40:21

Talk about Athens for free. Cell

40:27

with me to discuss. you are Strikes today

40:29

in the Middle East Happened a few hours

40:31

ago. What it means the reason who admires

40:33

our Banco and Robin Wright or no Us

40:35

turned you and your reporting because we have

40:37

strikes on according to Us government eighty five

40:39

I believe different targets. And

40:43

as. Your

40:45

reporting was about the fact that. One.

40:47

Of the challenges for Us Intelligence

40:49

was determining the degree to which

40:52

the actions taken by these Iranian

40:54

proxies, specifically those that hit that

40:56

base and Jordan were basically under

40:58

the sort of direct operational control

41:01

of the cuts worse, Iranian Revolutionary

41:03

Guard Corps, or. The

41:05

group was supported but they were sort of making this

41:07

on their own and and the question for Us intelligence

41:09

about. How. That would celebrate.

41:12

Today's actions. Get less and

41:14

in obviously the L. Now that these

41:16

groups are you know, well funded, funded

41:19

by or on a train and equip

41:21

fire on on specifically the put forth

41:23

by. You know we've heard senior officials

41:25

and the President himself. you know in

41:27

recent weeks. Saying. From

41:29

the podium in. The risk of

41:32

miscalculation here is incredibly high, and

41:34

that's a calculation that the administration

41:36

has been making themselves in. Thinking

41:39

about how to respond to these

41:41

attacks that we've seen in Iraq

41:43

and Syria and then again after

41:45

the Power Twenty Two incidents is

41:48

a calculation that that is important

41:50

to that response and figuring out

41:52

the extent to which the leadership

41:55

in Iran was for potentially involved

41:57

in a deal. Directly involved.

42:00

In some of these attacks, that

42:02

calculation has become so important for

42:04

intelligence officials, and given that President

42:06

Biden and his administration have been

42:08

so forth in their comments about

42:10

not wanting to widen this war.

42:13

Robin for I want to read for

42:15

your motor the Iraqi Army spokesperson of

42:17

course he strikes happening again in in

42:19

Syria and Iraq. Directed

42:21

at these groups that are associated

42:23

with with Iran backed by Iran

42:25

Iraq Rockies are saying be straight

42:27

constitute a violation of rocky sovereignty

42:30

and undermining of the efforts the

42:32

Rocky government, a threat that will

42:34

drag a rock and the region

42:36

unforeseen consequences the consequences of which

42:38

will be disastrous security and stability

42:40

in Iraq and the reason Having

42:42

written report about this. The. Stream

42:44

sort of cheek by jowl existence

42:46

of Us military and essentially Iranian

42:48

proxy forces in inside Iraq. How

42:51

do you read that statement? Will.

42:54

I think we've gotten to the point

42:56

at the Rockies are beginning to ask

42:58

for the United States leave and as

43:00

really at the end of the day

43:03

Iran sixteen plan. I did that in

43:05

Lebanon forcing the marines to go. The

43:07

Israelis are occupied Lebanon for eighteen years.

43:09

They with her tail between the legs

43:11

withdrew unilaterally with a lot peace deal

43:13

stance what we're seeing play out or

43:15

with Us forces now in Iraq and

43:17

Syria that. The

43:19

Iran and it's allies want to make

43:21

the United Sates so unpopular and so

43:23

threatened that they eventually pull out on

43:25

United States is trying to take a

43:28

strong sam. But remember willie of nine

43:30

hundred troops in Syria, twenty five hundred

43:32

and Iraq and I they are vulnerable.

43:34

Look, listen to what extent we have

43:36

to go in. It's.

43:38

Going. To.

43:40

Protect them and send a message to

43:42

government. So the danger is that we

43:45

may when the short term. To

43:48

the message playing out but we may find

43:50

that down the road not the to do

43:52

some future that we we are kind of

43:54

forced to withdraw because the is an their

43:56

their cooperation with us. Yes,

43:58

in the sort of this this question. about sort of

44:00

public opinion in the region, obviously, you know,

44:03

goes back to the aftermath of that October

44:05

7 attack and sustained Israeli

44:09

offensive in Gaza

44:11

and also public opinion in

44:13

Iraq after tonight's strikes, Humman,

44:15

where you can accomplish

44:18

a certain end militarily in

44:20

terms of deterrence, but there may be repercussions in

44:22

that respect. Oh, sure. I mean, we don't know

44:24

what the repercussions will be. First

44:26

of all, we don't know if there are any

44:28

Iranians killed, where Iran will

44:31

be forced or feel obliged

44:33

to have some sort of reaction that is beyond

44:35

just words. We don't know how many other kinds

44:37

of people, civilians have been killed. So we don't

44:40

really know what we, we won't know for a

44:42

few days what the next steps are going to

44:44

be. All right. All right. To unmodish to Aaron

44:46

Banco, Robin Wright. Thank you all. Thank you. That

44:49

does it for all in. You can catch

44:51

us every weeknight at eight o'clock on MSNBC.

44:53

Don't forget to like us on Facebook. That's

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