0:00

This week on notes from America, meet a

0:02

climate scientist who happens to be an evangelical.

0:04

How her faith and work intersect, plus

0:07

actor Omar Eps on his new novel, which

0:09

imagines a world that did not address

0:11

the climate crisis in time. Listen now wherever

0:13

you get your podcasts. Alison

0:18

support it, WNYC

0:21

Stewart.

0:32

A

0:32

review in the LA Times says the series 'Welcome

0:34

to Chippendales' is a quote, engrossing trip

0:37

back in time to CD80s LA.

0:40

So let's get in time machine and travel back

0:42

to a time of wide lapels and spandex.

0:44

and Southern California when a small

0:46

struggling night club tried something new.

0:49

Barely clad male dancers aimed

0:51

at getting hot and bothered women to spend their

0:53

money on a night out in an atmosphere that

0:55

felt and appeared safe. The

0:57

dancers had costumes and storylines.

1:00

They bumped and grinded their way through.

1:03

The man behind the concept which he named

1:05

Chippendales' wasn't a fist raising

1:07

feminist in it for a female empowerment

1:10

or particularly liberal minded. He

1:12

was a focused immigrant from India with

1:14

aspirations of great wealth and celebrity.

1:16

His name was Shomen Banerjee. he

1:19

would change it to Steve. He became

1:21

very rich when shipping dales exploded.

1:23

The brand expanded in the US and then we did

1:25

international. There were tours. There was merch.

1:28

like the best selling calendar featuring

1:30

the men of chip But Banner

1:32

g's obsessive pursuit of

1:34

more of more and more

1:36

intersected with a dark jealous

1:39

coupled with some very bad financial decisions

1:41

he set in motion a string of violent and fatal

1:43

acts. 'Welcome to Chippendales' drops

1:46

today on Hulu. Actor and comedian

1:48

Kumail, Nanjiani, plays Benerjee. He's also

1:50

the show's executive producer And Camille

1:52

is in studio with me right now. So

1:54

nice to see you in person.

1:55

Oh, thank you for having me.

1:57

You know, the last time we're in the show, It

1:59

was obviously remote. You were talking about your podcast

2:01

with with your wife staying in with Emily

2:03

Kumail. It was during lockdown on

2:06

phone, obviously. when

2:08

you look back, what did that podcast

2:10

mean to you?

2:11

I don't know

2:13

what it means to I mean, there's no way for

2:15

me to know what what it meant to anybody

2:17

listening to it. really

2:19

honestly helped me and Emily

2:23

realize the value of

2:25

communicating with each other in a very

2:29

deep and intentional way. Sometimes,

2:31

I think, you know, it's easy to York go

2:34

on autopilot with everything. Mhmm.

2:36

And I think that overall was

2:38

what I learned from lock down was

2:40

to be intentional about everything, how I

2:42

spend my day, the things I do,

2:45

and just with checking in with how

2:47

are you doing? Like, really having,

2:49

like, that conversation

2:52

with her and telling her how I

2:54

feel, wasn't something we

2:56

were really doing regularly? And now

2:58

we do do it regularly. So

2:59

it sounds like it's one of those things that comes out

3:02

of out of COVID that you'll continue

3:04

to do in your life. Actually, I don't want

3:06

to say good things came out of COVID,

3:08

but people had certain realizations.

3:10

Yeah. And I that that

3:12

was definitely one of my realizations. Well,

3:14

all of them were around ruled

3:16

around the same thing, which is just being more

3:18

aware and intentional about my life. I

3:20

felt like sometimes I was just sort of

3:23

pulled around by You know, it

3:25

was that thing that you have where you thought of

3:27

as lockdown goes down, you're like, what

3:29

was I doing with my life before

3:31

lockdown? I have no idea my day is a nice for

3:33

full, but I have no idea what I was doing. So now,

3:36

I realized prioritizing time with

3:38

Emily and time doing nothing

3:40

and having the privilege to sort of be able

3:42

to do that. It's valuable to

3:44

me. Howard Bauchner:

3:45

What impact has it had on the

3:48

choices you make professionally?

3:50

really big impact. You

3:53

know, when you're sort of struggling for a lot

3:55

of years to get small

3:57

parts and things and you don't have the

3:59

luxury of saying no. When

4:01

people first start asking you to do

4:03

stuff, you're so excited that you just sort of

4:05

say yes everything. It's sort of like who am

4:07

I to say no to this? They worked so hard on

4:09

it. So because of that,

4:11

after the big sick, which was sort of our

4:13

first real success on

4:15

our not on our own, but, you

4:17

know, that I could say

4:20

was, like, where

4:22

I really got to play something I hadn't

4:24

gotten to play -- Mhmm. -- some version of

4:26

myself.

4:27

I I did some things that

4:29

I don't regret doing,

4:31

but that I wouldn't choose to do now.

4:33

the

4:34

And so I've sort of been, again,

4:36

more intentional about choices. I have not

4:39

again, it's privilege, but I haven't worked

4:41

as much since then. I've really only

4:43

done I did Star

4:45

Wars -- Mhmm. -- and I did this. Mhmm.

4:48

and and I know what my next thing

4:50

is, but that's not for another couple months. So

4:52

just being a little trying

4:55

to not be so desperate

4:56

about, you know, grabbing onto

4:58

anything that comes my way.

4:59

Also, that idea of you really you hear

5:02

it, and it's trite, but there's truth in it,

5:04

quality over quantity.

5:05

I think so. I feel

5:07

like, you know, I wanna only do

5:09

things that at least have a chance

5:11

of being great. Making something great

5:13

is so difficult. And

5:16

sometimes you're like, oh,

5:17

you nobody even

5:18

nobody's even trying to make this great.

5:21

because you even if you try to make something

5:23

great, you're gonna fail most

5:25

of the time. And so at

5:27

least try to put myself in positions where

5:29

I'm aligned with things that you

5:31

know, the best version of is something that I

5:33

can be proud of.

5:34

My guess is Camille Nanjiani. The

5:36

name of the new Hulu series is welcome

5:38

to Chippendales' it drops

5:40

today, November twenty second. It

5:42

was reported that you originally passed on

5:44

this role?

5:45

Yeah. So it was a movie.

5:47

It was right after the big it came out,

5:49

I actually met Rob Siegel, who's the creator

5:51

of this show, and he had a movie script

5:53

before that or of

5:56

of the same story. So this is what year? this

5:58

would have been twenty seventeen. Twenty seventeen. Okay.

6:00

We met at the New York

6:02

premiere of the Big Sick, actually. And he said,

6:04

I have this script I want you to

6:06

do true story,

6:08

the guy who started Chippendales' an

6:10

Indian immigrant, and the story

6:12

involves, you know, lot of crimes,

6:15

murder, all this stuff. I had no idea about

6:17

any of this. I read the script. I really liked

6:19

it. But at that point, my head was kind

6:21

of spinning. My life had sort of changed very

6:23

quickly. And another thing

6:25

that happens when there's

6:27

like a new sort of comedy person in

6:29

Hollywood that can be in a movie, suddenly

6:31

they dust off every comedy

6:33

script that hasn't been made for the last twenty

6:35

years. And then you're gonna wedge you into it? Yes.

6:37

So I you'll see, like, oh, it was

6:39

first for Jim Carrey, then it was for Will Ferrell,

6:41

then it was for Jason's Day because then it was and

6:43

then now it's for me, you know. And you could see,

6:46

like, oh, I could see all the different rerights

6:48

that they had done to try and get it to

6:50

sound like those various people. And so

6:52

my head was spinning a little bit. I didn't know what I

6:54

wanted to do next. And honestly, I was

6:56

intimidated by the script. I'd never

6:59

the basic was the first time I'd done any

7:01

dramatic York, and this

7:03

was completely dramatic. Mhmm. And I

7:05

was still a little scared to do something

7:07

that didn't have a lot of comedy

7:09

in it. That was still sort of my wheelhouse,

7:11

what I felt comfortable doing. I

7:13

didn't know how to play a character like

7:15

this, and so I said no.

7:18

What changed your mind?

7:19

He came back to me five

7:21

years later. It was a mini series now.

7:24

And I just realized that, you

7:26

know, sometimes when I make decisions,

7:28

I can't tell if it's because

7:31

I don't want to do something or if it's

7:33

because of fear. I just can't

7:35

tell. And you wanna you know,

7:37

fear shouldn't be the motivator to not

7:39

do something. The other thing is but

7:41

but sometimes I can convince myself. Like, I'll be

7:43

scared and I'll find other reasons to not do it,

7:45

intellectual reasons. So

7:47

when he came back to me, I had, like,

7:49

three or four conversations with him. Again,

7:51

I I realized now I was scared.

7:54

Mhmm. And then the fourth conversation we

7:56

had, he said, I'm just gonna talk you through

7:58

every episode. Tell you what

8:00

happens in every episode. And

8:02

he sort of spoke for forty five minutes,

8:05

and I kept interrupting him to be like, that's

8:07

that happened. That really happened. by

8:09

the end, you know, when he talked to me about the eighth

8:11

episode, I was like, oh, it

8:14

is fair because the story is

8:16

too good. This project too exciting. I

8:18

never get a chance to play something like this, you

8:20

know, if it wasn't if

8:22

this wasn't a true story, this partner would not

8:24

have come to me. It would have gone to someone

8:26

white, you know. And so I

8:28

was like, oh, the reason that I'm

8:30

being hesitant now is because I'm intimidated

8:32

by it. And that's not a good reason. So I

8:34

said, yes. And that I said yes,

8:36

and I'll figure out how to do it later.

8:38

There's also the the barometer

8:41

of if you saw someone else do it and you'd be

8:43

incredibly jealous, you know that

8:44

you should you really

8:45

wanted to do it. Definitely. Definitely.

8:47

Yes. And, you know, I always look to

8:49

I sort of looked at the, like, my heroes,

8:52

the reasons that the people that

8:54

made me get into comedy and

8:56

see what decisions they made. So

8:58

I was think of Robin Williams. You know,

9:00

I when you think of someone who Stewart, I've

9:02

as a stand up comedian and then ended up doing

9:05

dramatic work at a very high level. I don't think

9:07

anybody beats what he did. And he did

9:09

some really, really dark roles,

9:11

you know. And

9:13

so I was like, okay. I kinda

9:15

have to at least try to

9:17

following the footsteps as the people

9:19

that I look up to. So I was like,

9:21

okay. Yeah. III have to do I have to

9:23

I have to I have to give this a shot.

9:25

When you started doing your research

9:27

on Steve Banerjee and

9:29

entails, there's a their book, the the series

9:31

is based after a book, Dudley Dantz, The

9:33

Chip and Dale Murders. What kind

9:36

of research did you do? Were you able

9:38

to get close to anybody who was

9:40

close to Steve, energy in any way?

9:42

No, because most of the

9:44

people who were close to Steve, energy are

9:46

not with us anymore. And

9:48

for me, you know, I did some research. There's

9:50

actually not a lot of stuff on Steve directly.

9:52

We know what he did. Mhmm.

9:54

Bad stuff. We know what people say

9:56

about him, but what people say about

9:58

him is different. Some people loved him.

10:00

Some people hated him. Some people were scared of him.

10:02

Some people thought he was harmless. Mhmm. And

10:04

that was actually good insight into me into how

10:06

to play the character. I mean, we're all different

10:08

things to different people. But this guy,

10:10

specifically, I think, was

10:13

was was was different things to

10:15

different people. And so I realized,

10:17

okay, he's not someone who's

10:19

pure evil all the time.

10:22

There's a part of him in

10:24

there that comes out and

10:26

does evil. But, really,

10:28

he's that's not all

10:30

of him. And then my job

10:32

was just to sort of look at the script and

10:34

create the character as

10:36

written because there's really

10:38

no way to recreate that

10:40

real guy, you know. And I'm not playing someone like

10:42

Elvis who people know. So I think

10:44

I had a lot lot more freedom.

10:46

But my goal was how do I have someone

10:48

in the beginning who if

10:50

they did the things that they do later, if

10:52

they did them in the beginning, you wouldn't believe it.

10:54

and then they do it later and it feels inevitable,

10:57

but it still feels like the same guy.

10:59

Mhmm. So that was sort of that was sort of

11:01

the challenge for me. How do I make someone

11:03

who changes that much. But really, it's the ways

11:05

that they don't change that lead them to do the things

11:07

they do. So where is Steve Bannergy when we

11:09

first meet him? We first meet him is

11:12

working at a gas station. and he's

11:14

been saving up a ton of

11:16

money to sort of go off on his own and

11:18

he his dream is to start a backgammon

11:20

club. because he's red. Mhmm. You know,

11:22

there's no backgamma club in LA. So he's like,

11:24

clearly, there should be a backgamma club in

11:26

LA. So eighties. It's it's such a

11:28

weird. Yeah. It's such a weird way

11:30

too. He had all these weird ideas. So he

11:32

opened this

11:33

backgammon

11:34

club. He called it destiny two.

11:36

That's real. He called it destiny two.

11:39

because he peep he wanted it to seem

11:41

like a sequel because people would be like, oh,

11:43

destiny one was so busy to open a new

11:45

location. They were They're getting

11:47

packed with backgammon players day and

11:49

night. We had to expand. So he

11:51

had all these sort of ideas that

11:53

kinda make sense in a certain kind of way,

11:55

but practically don't really make any

11:57

sense. So he had been saving

11:59

up a bunch of money and when the show starts, he gets

12:01

offered a promotion by his boss to sort

12:03

of manage seven gas stations.

12:06

And that's when he decides, no. I'm gonna go off on

12:08

my own and open follow my dreams

12:10

by opening backgammon club. Well,

12:11

let's listen to this clip from welcome to and

12:14

Dale. That moment when he tells his boss,

12:16

when Steve Energy tells his boss,

12:18

what he plans to do This

12:20

is Camille Nongiani as Steve Energy,

12:22

and welcome to

12:24

I greatly appreciate your offer.

12:30

Whatever, freighter can't accept. What?

12:34

I've been meaning to speak with you about this for some

12:36

time now, sir. I have made the

12:38

decision to leave. But

12:40

what will you do? How much money

12:42

have you saved? As of Monday,

12:44

forty four thousand dollars? forty

12:46

four thousand dollars. How is that possible?

12:49

Actually, it's forty four thousand one hundred

12:51

and fifty five dollars. I rounded down because

12:53

I didn't want to brag. But You pay me two

12:55

point six zero dollars an hour, multiply that

12:57

by seventy hours a week, fifty two weeks a year

12:59

by five years. That comes to fifty two thousand

13:01

dollars, of which I have managed to save

13:03

ninety percent. Ninety. I

13:06

have no social life to speak us.

13:08

All I do is sleep and work.

13:11

For food, I eat

13:13

expired. sand which is from the station. If

13:15

you have forty four thousand dollars,

13:17

that's nearly enough to own your own gas

13:19

station. That's true. So

13:22

why not just work with me

13:23

for a few more years up? I

13:24

do not want a gas station. What do

13:27

you mean you don't want a gas station with

13:29

me? That was my dream

13:31

when I came

13:31

here, but that was seven years

13:34

ago. My goals

13:36

have changed.

13:37

I

13:40

have changed. As

13:41

female Kumail and welcome to chip and Chippendales',

13:44

what's changed about him in those seven

13:45

years? as you

13:46

were portraying him. because we this isn't this isn't

13:49

really on in the series, but clearly you have a

13:51

backstory.

13:51

Yeah. I think he's

13:53

learned. I think he's fallen into the trap

13:55

of aspiring

13:57

to a very specific kind

14:00

of American success, which is a

14:02

very white success.

14:04

Mhmm. We see in

14:06

that clip that he's staring at these pictures

14:08

that he's posted on his wall of Hugh

14:10

Heffner and all these other sort of

14:12

all white fabulous people with expensive

14:14

watches and suits and cars.

14:16

And to him, that's

14:18

become what successes. You know, it's a very

14:20

narrow definition of success.

14:22

It's it's it's financial success, but

14:24

it's also sort of it's very

14:26

white. And so he's

14:28

realized that what he wants do. He's

14:30

not gonna get by managing

14:32

gas stations, you know. He needs to aim

14:34

higher. And so that's

14:36

what's changed. He's sort of bought

14:38

into this this very

14:40

specific version of the American dream

14:42

that isn't really available to very

14:44

many people and it certainly is not available

14:46

to him.

14:46

and there's a very let's find you just the

14:48

watches because there's a detail in one of the episodes. He

14:51

decides to work with someone when he spies

14:53

that he is wearing a Rolex or what he

14:55

thinks is a Rolex. And that that

14:57

check some box for Steve. Like, yes, I'll work

14:59

with you because you can wear York a

15:01

Rolex.

15:01

That's exactly right. The way he thinks

15:04

people work is he he to

15:06

him success is not even as

15:08

important as other people thinking he's

15:10

successful. So he's very into the

15:12

the the the signifiers, the success,

15:14

like watches and stuff. So the way he

15:16

thinks people judge him is how he judges

15:19

other people. So if someone's

15:21

someone's wearing a Rolex, they're they're

15:23

they're worthy, you know. To him, I think,

15:26

material success is

15:28

moral. if you're

15:31

successful, you're a good person. I

15:33

think his morality is

15:36

material success. I think there are people

15:38

like that in America. I think policy. And I

15:40

thought I won't be on Musk. Yeah.

15:42

Well, I'm not gonna

15:43

I'm just saying it's the

15:45

way some

15:45

people in America see

15:48

wealthy people as being inherently more

15:50

worthy of

15:52

of love and appreciation. We've seen that. Like,

15:54

oh, if they're rich, they must be a

15:56

good person. I lot of

15:58

people don't, like, articulate it like

16:00

that, but I think it's true. I think we've seen that

16:02

with people that

16:04

we've voted for, you know,

16:06

oh, they have, like, gold toilet,

16:08

so they must be they must

16:10

be good people. I think we have I think that

16:12

math is part of our psyche.

16:14

My guess is Kumail The

16:16

name of the show is a welcome to Chippendales'.

16:18

We'll talk more with Camille about the rest of

16:21

the cast. some of the

16:23

controversy within the

16:25

show. This

16:25

is all of it.

16:35

You're listening to all of it on WNYC. Alison

16:38

Stewart. My guest is Camille We are

16:40

talking about his new series. Welcome 'Welcome and

16:42

dales, which drops today

16:44

on Hulu. So the

16:46

cast, you have a lot impressive cast

16:48

around you. playing Nick De Noya, the

16:50

Bain of Entergy's Existence Partner

16:52

in the beginning. Business Partner is Murray Bartlett,

16:54

who just won an Emmy for the White Lotus,

16:57

Tony Award winner, Annaly

16:59

Ashford. A lot of people in New York know her. She plays

17:01

your wife, Juliet Lewis. She's had this

17:03

breakout year with yellow jackets and a sort of a

17:05

Genx icon. What is something

17:07

you learned from working with this particular

17:09

cast that you think you'll take forward?

17:11

I

17:11

mean, I genuinely learned different

17:13

things from all of I really did.

17:15

It was such joy to work with this cast

17:17

and Robin De Jesus, who shows

17:19

up a little bit later in the season. It's fantastic.

17:21

Andrew Reynolds too. Also, you know, they're all

17:24

Broadway royalty. So

17:26

from Annaly, I learned if you wanna

17:29

get specific every take of hers is different.

17:31

She doesn't plan anything.

17:33

I'm sure she's done prep and stuff. And if I've,

17:35

like, sort of, peeked at her notes,

17:37

and I've learned specific stuff from that. So

17:39

if, for instance, if there's an emotional scene where

17:41

she needs to be sad,

17:43

she will write down if the

17:46

scenes if she's not able to get there, she'll write down

17:48

ten personal substitutions,

17:51

emotional substitutions from her

17:54

actual life. but that's only a

17:56

safety net. Ideally, she

17:58

just wants to do the scene and get

17:59

there through the scene and the character not

18:02

having to pull from her real life,

18:04

you know. but every scene is

18:06

absolutely different and she's very

18:08

loose. So that's what I learned from her.

18:10

With Murray, you know, his prep for

18:12

scenes is so good the way he gets into

18:14

the emotion of a scene before we start

18:16

rolling. He'll sort of talk to

18:18

himself. He'll pace around. And

18:20

I used to not do that because I would like it feels

18:22

so, like, uncool to

18:24

do that, you know. Performative kind

18:26

of Yeah. but I think

18:28

you have to do that stuff. And and, you know, I was doing something I

18:31

was shooting in a scene in episode seven, and

18:33

I was like, oh, I learned this technique from

18:35

Murray back in episode two.

18:37

and Juliet is just so

18:39

present on camera in a way

18:41

that feels. It's almost dangerous. Where

18:43

sometimes you do a scene with her and you're

18:45

like, oh, it feels like in this

18:47

moment, there's kinda no safety net

18:50

for you. You're really like going

18:52

there. You're really living that moment.

18:54

So I was really, you know, picked up so

18:56

much from all these people. And they're also I

18:58

found theater people are generally a lot more

19:01

collaborative. I come from the world of

19:03

comedy. Mhmm. inherently a little more

19:05

competitive. You know, when you're doing

19:07

stand up, even with your friends, you're like, oh, I

19:09

wanna, like, blow them off the

19:11

stage. Do working with Broadway people. it's

19:14

blissfully collaborative. It's it was

19:16

so good. I could I've never done this. I could

19:18

really go to, like, Annaly or Murray and

19:20

say, hey, I'm having trouble with this scene. Do you

19:22

wanna, like, help me -- Yeah. -- help

19:24

me figure it out. We just sit on the

19:26

floor and figure it out. So

19:28

I've learned this way is much better for

19:30

my work and much better for my mental health. Does

19:32

it made you

19:33

think about doing stage work?

19:35

It has, you know, so Annaly is

19:38

always and Matt Chapman who directed the first two episodes

19:40

and he was the creative director of the Gaffin

19:42

until recently. They've both

19:44

been talking to me to be like, hey, you

19:46

need to you need to get on stage. need to get on

19:48

stage. Again, I'm a little

19:50

intimidated by it. What is

19:51

something you under stand

19:53

about dramatic acting now that you've

19:56

had a role where you are the

19:58

lead. This is it. This is this is

19:59

your show. I

20:02

think the biggest thing that I had to

20:05

unlearn was comedy is so much about

20:07

rhythm and pace. You

20:09

really sort of have to, like boom boom

20:11

boom boom boom, you know, It's

20:13

all about timing. It's

20:15

about what you're saying, where I feel like

20:17

drama, you can really take

20:19

your time with it. And for

20:21

me, I had to unlearn that training

20:23

of, like, just really get to the

20:25

line. If if it takes you a while to get to

20:27

the line, that's okay. and

20:29

sort of the magic is in the

20:32

pauses too when you're when you're

20:34

not when you're not doing

20:36

it. And with comedy, there's like a

20:38

sort of a target you're trying to hit.

20:40

There's like a best version of

20:42

the joke. Drum is

20:44

not like that. there are many

20:47

different amazing versions. You could do

20:49

a take where, you know,

20:51

it's a combative scene where you

20:53

start laughing. And that can be really good

20:55

too, or it take where you suddenly get really

20:57

sad. That can be really good too. So

20:59

I've learned really to let

21:01

go of preparation or

21:03

any kind of version of the scene in my head.

21:05

I think dramatic work is

21:07

best when you're really surprising yourself.

21:09

you think about someone like Steve

21:12

Matargy, did you recognize

21:14

him at all? Did

21:16

you recognize Have you met

21:18

people in your life who were like

21:20

him? I

21:20

mean, I've certainly met

21:23

people who who

21:27

equate moral success

21:29

and material success, they think it's the same

21:31

thing. So that aspect of it

21:33

is based on people I know in

21:35

Hollywood, you know. and experienced that

21:37

myself since I've been more

21:39

successful. People treat me as more of

21:41

a person, as a more as a more

21:43

valid human being. So

21:45

I certainly experience that. I know people who

21:47

think like that to that part of that from

21:49

him. And then I think he's

21:51

someone who is who is deeply

21:53

uncomfortable with himself who deeply

21:55

doesn't really like himself. There's a

21:57

lot of self loading there. I mean, he changes his

21:59

name to a white American name,

22:02

you know. think it's more than that. I

22:04

think it's beyond a race

22:06

thing. I think he's deeply, deeply

22:10

not fond of himself. And I've

22:12

certainly had times in my life where I

22:14

where I felt that, you know, when I was

22:16

younger.

22:16

In the story,

22:19

the real story of of the

22:21

Chippendales' and dales, franchise and all the murders and

22:23

all the violence around it, it the crux

22:25

of the story is this relationship with

22:27

Nick DeNoya, his business relationship, and

22:29

Nick getting a lot of the credit. for

22:31

chippendale. He comes in. He's like choreographer. It really is

22:34

both of theirs. But each of them

22:36

seems to feel like incredible

22:38

ownership. of of the franchise

22:40

and of the of the

22:43

enterprise. When you think

22:45

about what the actual source

22:47

of tensions. When you take away the money and you

22:49

take away the fame, what do you

22:51

think was at least to how you made

22:54

Steve a real complex layered person?

22:56

What was the actual conflict

22:58

between these two men? I

22:59

think I can only speak from

23:01

Steve's perspective. I think Nick

23:03

is everything Steve wants to be, but

23:05

he knows he can never be. Steve

23:08

doesn't like himself. Nick

23:10

does like himself. A lot. Yeah.

23:12

He likes himself a lot. He's very comfortable

23:14

in his body. Steve is not comfortable in

23:16

his he's very stiff. Nick is very fluid.

23:19

Nick is very in touch with his sexuality.

23:21

I think Steve is completely out

23:23

of touch with his sexuality. At least

23:25

until, you know, he meets Irene. Nick

23:28

is very, very artistic. Steve

23:30

does not understand art at all. He

23:32

doesn't have an artistic bone in his body.

23:35

So I think when he sees

23:37

Nick. Nick is popular. Nick is

23:39

charismatic. People like Nick, you know,

23:41

Nick controls a room. Steve doesn't.

23:44

Steve doesn't have the respect that Nick

23:46

that comes naturally for Nick, you know. So

23:48

I think it's all that stuff. The stuff that

23:50

comes very very difficult for Steve

23:52

is very easy for Nick, and I think he

23:54

resents that. He knows he'll never be

23:57

that. Does

23:58

Steve feel justified? in

24:00

what he does and all of the bad acts

24:02

he does. Yes,

24:03

absolutely. I think for Steve,

24:06

the way he approaches relationships, there's

24:09

a math to it. And the math is, you

24:11

know, it's all to him. It's all

24:13

causing effect. Like, you started it. You

24:15

did this thing. You tried to take

24:17

my club. So what I'm doing back to

24:19

you is not my fault because you were the

24:21

one who did the bad thing. I'm just

24:23

reacting to what you did. I

24:25

think I think to him, it's completely justified.

24:27

In fact, I really that's how I kind

24:29

of felt as I was you know, you sort of

24:31

do a lot of intellectual work before

24:33

you start shooting. And when you start shooting, you sort

24:36

of let go of all that intellectual work and

24:38

just hopefully feel as the

24:40

characters through the world through their

24:42

eyes and and and and kinda like

24:44

really, you know, you'd really like in their

24:46

skin. And so I did the whole

24:48

season and I really felt justified

24:51

in in all these decisions. And it wasn't

24:53

until I saw, like, the

24:55

early edits of episode seven and eight

24:57

that I was like, oh, he's

24:59

He's a bad guy. He's a bad dude. Yeah. That's

25:01

when I I got, like, really angry

25:03

at him. Mhmm. And I got, like,

25:05

in sort of frustrated at what he

25:07

was doing. And I didn't feel that when I was shooting

25:10

it. How do you feel

25:11

about playing villains now? Not you've got a

25:13

taste of villainy.

25:15

I would love to do more of it. It's exhausting.

25:17

It's really exhausting. But

25:19

it's also really it was really,

25:21

really fun to play someone like that.

25:24

you know, the trick is to to turn

25:26

that emotion off after the

25:28

scene. That that was, you know,

25:30

that takes some some training that

25:32

takes some practice. Like, if you're really, like,

25:35

angry in a scene, your body doesn't know the

25:37

difference between you being angry in a

25:39

scene or outside of a scene. So when you yell

25:41

cut your heart still going, you

25:43

know, your head still feels hot, that kind of

25:45

stuff. Yeah. There are a couple of scenes where you

25:47

rage. Yeah. I rage. I

25:49

rage. And those are, like, sort of thrilling to do in the

25:51

moment. But ultimately, I

25:54

realize anger

25:56

begets anger. you know, I used to think

25:58

like, oh, blow our steam, you'll feel better.

26:00

I don't think that's always true. I think the

26:02

angrier you are, the angrier you

26:04

are. And it certainly felt that

26:06

doing this show too a little bit. Like, when I was

26:08

angry in a scene afterwards, I wasn't like,

26:10

oh, I feel relaxed. I was just sort of

26:12

in that mode. You see that on social media.

26:15

Right? like, people get angry, and when they

26:17

get angry, they just keep getting angry

26:19

and and angrier. So the it's not

26:21

like a release valve where suddenly you're like,

26:23

okay, I'm better now. I mean, obviously speaking

26:26

mind -- Mhmm. -- you know, has

26:28

value. And I think there's justified anger.

26:30

You know, I think there's, like, good

26:32

anger. But that kind of the anger that Steve displays,

26:35

it's just destructive to the people around him,

26:37

but also really to himself.

26:38

Is there any

26:41

project that you think you may get to do

26:43

or have a chance of making great

26:45

that you know has come from

26:47

your success in the big sick? and

26:49

the eternals, and welcome to Chip

26:51

and Dale. Some projects you've been sort of like

26:53

thinking about are subject to be thinking about.

26:55

I really wanna make something about

26:57

this.

26:57

Yeah. There's a couple of things. I don't wanna say

26:59

say them to Outlook, but one is

27:01

based on another true story

27:03

of another of a Pakistani

27:05

immigrant. I think that

27:07

story Alison fascinating. It's also said in the seventies,

27:10

actually, that I really wanna

27:12

do. And then there are a couple of, you

27:14

know, really aspirational sort

27:16

of bigger franchisee

27:18

things that I'm like, oh, I love

27:20

this thing. I would love to be a part of

27:22

it. You know, there are some people that are like, if they love

27:24

something, they're like, I just wanna enjoy it.

27:26

I'm not like that. I wanna be in it, you

27:28

know. I mean, coach yeah. I wanna be a part of

27:30

it. I'm like, I know this thing in my bones. I think

27:32

I I think I could do this really well.

27:35

I think For me, the goal is I wanna be in the things

27:37

that I love, and I want them to be a

27:39

little bit better because I'm in them. I don't

27:41

wanna just do like a walk on cameo or

27:43

something. I wanna be

27:44

like a part of it. Wanna let

27:45

you know that Camille Kumail will be

27:47

in person at the ninety second Stewart

27:50

on December eighth at

27:53

eight PM wanted to give you

27:55

a shout out for that. Thank you so much for

27:57

coming in. Really lovely to see you. Oh, thank

27:59

you so much for having me.

27:59

This is great. This is all

28:02

of it.