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Welcome to All Power to the Developing, a podcast of the Eastside Institute,

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where social justice, human development, and community building come together.

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This is where you will meet activists, artists, teachers, scholars,

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helpers, and healers while bringing creativity, hope, and possibility to individuals

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and communities all over the world.

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Music.

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Hello, everyone. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to All Power to the Developing.

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This is your host, Desiree Wandon, Des for short. I hope everyone is doing good today.

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Today, I'm honored to have two guests from Cape Town, South Africa,

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Karin Hendricks and Fakmida Ling.

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They are among the leaders, many of them women, of Sisi Ghulhaus,

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a long-abandoned hospital that was taken over by housing activists seven years ago.

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And today is a vibrant, self-governing community of more than a thousand formerly homeless people.

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Karin and Fakmira, welcome to All Power to Developing. How are you doing?

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Good day, Jason. Good day to the listeners. Thank you for having us. Hi, everyone.

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Nice to be here and thank you so much for having us here today. day.

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Yes, yes. Thank you so much for you two being here with us, zooming in all the way from South Africa.

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This is going to be such a great episode to learn a lot about the amazing work

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going out at Sissy Gould House. Before we get into Sissy Gould House and what it is, I think I want to speak

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a little bit about the political atmosphere that led into this type of crisis

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in South Africa. And I think that kind of starts a little with apartheid.

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So can you kind of give us a little overview of how apartheid has taken South

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Africa and maybe add into that, you know, your personal history as two women

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that were living in South Africa when this was occurring?

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Yeah, so living in Cape Town,

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particularly if you come from a poor or working class and black background or

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family, has its challenges,

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as far as life challenges. And we love the experience of this inequality still today.

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Day, even though in 1994, when we moved into a democracy, we had so much hope

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that there would be equality as well as equity.

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But to date, that hasn't really happened.

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Everything is on paper. We have one of the greatest constitutions on paper,

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but yet we are still living in squalor and people are still not being treated

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in a just and fair manner because of their class,

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their race, and the fact that we are not wealthy and we do not have money.

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So that is still, those were one of the norms of apartheid where people were

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classed and classified because of the color of their skin and also because of their class situation.

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And that defines where we are right now.

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We are supposed to be at the crossroads. We were supposed to be crossing over in 1994,

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but to date we still face the same inequalities of housing injustice,

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hunger, poverty, and so much more in South Africa.

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Thank you. You said, Karin, you said in 1994, when you switched over to democracy,

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there was thought that things would change.

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What exactly was going on in that time period of 1994?

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Can you describe a little bit about how it was and what was the thought of what

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it would be after this time period? So there was a hope that, and I'd like to make reference to our constitution,

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that in section 26 of the constitution, for example, the constitution speaks

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about the right to housing, that everyone has the right to housing.

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And in Cape Town, Cape Town has the biggest affordability crisis,

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housing affordability crisis.

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And in Cape Town alone, or in the Western Cape, there are more than 600,000

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people who are waiting for housing.

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And it cannot be that these were the promises that were made by a democratic

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government or in a new dawn or a new democracy.

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And 30 years later, we have not yet realized those promises.

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The same, I would like to add to what Corinne has just said here nowadays.

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You see, with the apartheid era,

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our families were forcefully removed from a place called District 6,

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which is a very prominent piece of land,

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very close to the mountain, to the sea, to,

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All the privilege, I don't like to use the word privilege, but all of these

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were taken away from them that time when they were forcefully removed.

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And for me, I was born and raised in Cape Town.

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The same thing is happening to us that has happened to our parents and grandparents at the time.

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They were also taken from these prominent areas and spaces and thrown on the outskirts.

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Why? We still don't know. As Karen said, it is because we don't have six-figure bank balances.

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We don't have the right color scheme. We are not seen as prominent figures.

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That is why we get treated in this manner. And up until today,

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where those people were removed, nothing or little development has taken place in part of those areas.

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And the place where we are, where I was born in, my children were born in,

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and we were raised in this Woodstock area.

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The same is happening here now. It's just that the word apartheid has changed to gentrification.

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It's the same thing happening over and

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over again when nelson mandela

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was released from prison he

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came into presidency in 1994 right

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so we had hope we had new visions we we were thinking change is gonna come 30

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years down the line what changes has come where we are stuck where we were were

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right then, 30 years back.

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And we are still in the struggle, especially this housing struggle.

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And the areas that we were born in, our government don't see us.

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In this environment. We are not good and fit to be in this environment and hence

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our struggle and hence this is also how we ended up in Sasegoo House.

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That was the old Woodstock Day Hospital that we renamed to Sasegoo House.

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I am one of 14 families that has been evicted from a road called out of the

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road and in a three-year struggle, a court struggle, we lost our case.

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And I can tell you, it was a fight and a half.

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Then we were given options like a place called Wolveravie, which is 45 kilometers out of the city.

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And this is where we stay. This is where we were born in.

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And then another option was a place called Likis Rator.

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Door and the third option was a place called

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peace and if you go into detail

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and look at what these places look like where they want to put us we did our

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own survey hence us moving and taking over this space that has been empty for

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almost 40 years it has not been operational it was just just standing there.

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So we started Reclaim the City in 2016.

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2017, we moved into the Woodstock Day Hospital, and we made it our home.

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We turned it into the homes of many others as time went on.

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We are there now going in for seven years.

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And we renamed, as you said before, our home is called Sasi Kuaus.

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Lots of promises there yeah yeah

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thank you so much for everything that you just

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gave there in terms of the background and

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the political situation and also you know just the brutality that that people

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have faced from the government so you're facing this apartheid you're facing

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this kind of lynching so to speak through legislation that is just displacing many people.

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Where where are these movements coming

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up from are you are you you just

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said here fuck me bug meter you said that you among

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15 families and then car and you spoke a little some how did these movements

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initially get started did it just get started out of people in the communities

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coming together to band together or were different people from different areas

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coming together and unifying to form these movements that initially took on apartheid.

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That is exactly what happened. You know, without parents and grandparents,

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they didn't have a leg to stand on, sort of.

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They were just thrown in the deep end, and they just had to take what was thrown

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at them, hence them being forcefully removed from their homes at that time.

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But now, with us, it's a different scenario.

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We are not going to take anything thrown at us just sitting down.

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And for me, I am a kindergarten teacher.

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I was not even politically bound or politically inclined to do anything until

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I was evicted from my home.

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And then all of these just sort of the thinking back and the reoccurrence of

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events and things like that. So that just angered me along the way and thinking that this is what my parents

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had to endure and accept. But we, this generation, is not going to just sit back and take everything being thrown at us.

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We are not going to do that. And we didn't do that.

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And we started the social movement, Reclaim the City.

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And that is exactly what it says. Yes, we are reclaiming what is ours.

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We are reclaiming the city because we have a slogan that says,

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yeah, the city works for us.

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But with us, the city does not work for us. It works for certain individuals.

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So with that said, our movement is based on community members of people being

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evicted from their homes, of people who were faced with eviction.

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Hence, Ringling the City was born. Yes.

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And Karan, for you, I mean, you just said that you were a kindergarten teacher,

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not so politically inclined, and this just woke you up.

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Karan, where were you in your political life, in your personal life,

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when a lot of this was happening? Yes, I'd like to believe, and I think I came here wearing my T-shirt today,

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that the personal is political. And it is so, because of our love experience.

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And also, you know, when, so in Cape Town, there is a housing backlog, right?

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Because of housing and affordability and because of the spatial planning,

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the apartheid spatial planning that still exists today.

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But this very housing backlog has also pushed people like ourselves towards

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housing self-provisioning or self-provisioning housing because the state at all levels do not,

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they actually lack the will to provide housing.

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And this is what we have seen over the years that we have now been occupying this building.

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But in the interim, while occupying the abandoned building, we have also been

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called all kinds of names. We've been called queue hijackers, we've been called queue jumpers,

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boarding hijackers, criminals and the thing is, the one thing that the state

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has missed, the state at all levels has missed,

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is that we have actually transformed an abandoned building into a home for more

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than a thousand residents who would otherwise have been left homeless,

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whose dignity has actually been taken away from them.

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And so on that basis, we are very serious about the labour that is involved

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involved in leading in these occupations, in coordinating in the occupation,

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in the daily, daily challenges that we face in the occupation as leaders of

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the community and occupiers too. We too are occupiers.

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And so, hence, we say that the personal is political because these are the very

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challenges that we live all the time. We face it, and we are faced with

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a state that does not want to take accountability for their own failures.

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For the lack of providing people with homes, a backlog of over 345,000,

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I speak under correction, a backlog of that.

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And yet we are sitting here with public parcels of vacant land that is being

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sold off to private developers.

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At a pittance of what the actual land is actually worth.

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And this is what really bugs me.

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And we would like to think that we are not the problem.

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We are the solution because we have provided these families with homes where

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the city failed to do that.

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And it is written in our constitution, chapter 3, bullet 26.

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Nobody is to be left homeless or displaced,

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no one it is our constitutional right to have a roof over our heads and these

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people have failed in all avenues,

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in all spheres they have failed into doing this so we took initiative and we

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created for ourselves and we stepped up we took people from the street.

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And we placed them in Sasi Kulaus.

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And this now became a problem for the city, who up until today does not have

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a plan in place to give these people the backlog I'm talking about.

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Me, myself, I am on that list, awaiting almost 20 years. I mean, really now?

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Use that public vacant land. They don't want to develop on there.

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They want to develop at a price, at a profit.

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Now, our slogan says, land for people, not for profit.

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Stop selling our land to private developers without meaningful engaging with us as if we do not exist.

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We are the people we need to be communicated to and engaged with before you

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take your decisions, before you go and do whatever you want to do out there as a prophet.

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Say to your people, because your slogan clearly says.

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The city works for you. The city is definitely not working for us. Yes, yes.

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Sounds like they're working against you. Yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely. I would like to speak about the initiative that you guys did take.

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Sisi Gouhal was originally the Woodstock Hospital, which was abandoned.

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Could you speak a little bit about that? If you know any history about that

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hospital, what did that hospital mean to that community and why was it initially abandoned, if you know?

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You want to go? So once again, I think Fagmida also touched on gentrification.

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Okay. And so this is the kind of state that we live in, a state that prioritizes

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profit over people and people's lives.

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And during the time when

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this hospital was abandoned or the space was abandoned

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it was obviously said that they could

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no longer afford to uphold the facility

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but also the reason that

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the the the hospital had been at the time the hospital was one of the sites

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the abandoned sites of public land that was promised and it was earmarked for

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affordable housing or for social housing.

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And that too did not happen. And the only reason that this space then,

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the moment we went to occupy the space,

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it was at that time that the municipality or the city of Cape Town then earmarked

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the actual site for affordable housing for families.

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But even though they did that, they could not have done that without pressure from us.

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So up to the point that it was earmarked for affordable housing,

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we were the ones who put pressure on them.

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Reclaim the City movement put pressure on the city,

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not to sell off the land to private developers, but rather to transform it into

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a housing development for poor and working class families,

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those who needed to access the city and the opportunities of the city.

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You know, this Woodstock Day Hospital was a community hospital where we as children

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were taken to when we were ill,

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when we need to have our injections, our immunizations, when we had to have an emergency.

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My mother was hospitalized in that very hospital more than once because she was a heart patient.

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So in that facility, we often frequented there when we felt ill or otherwise,

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and it was later developed also into like a dispensary where you could go and collect your meds from.

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So the one side just sort of fell away.

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Why? We don't know. But before we walked in there, it was already vacant for more than 14 years.

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So little did I think that this hospital that I frequented as a child was going

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to become my home one day. The thought never crossed my mind. And even now, if we move into certain sections,

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like the section where I moved in, we renamed that section Albert Road.

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Because that is the place where we were evicted from.

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So that space there, it just brought back many memories because as a child,

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I walked those passages going to visit my mom who was hospitalized.

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My sister's child was born there at some time. Somebody else is living in that

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cubicle where her child was born in.

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You know so when the memories and us living there at this point it just it speaks

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to each other this hospital not only is our home today but it also is.

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It has memories it it it brings back memories childhood memories and it makes

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it even more personal at that yes yes i think we're going to pause really quick

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to take a commercial break, when we come back from the commercial break we're going to learn a little bit

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more about the occupancy the challenges of going inside of a building and making

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it a home we're also going to talk a little bit about the political situation

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today in south africa and where these two women are today and where their work is today.

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This is All Power to the Developing, and we'll be right back after this short commercial break.

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Music.

22:40

Hi, I'm Melissa Meyer, Associate Director of the Eastside Institute.

22:45

Welcome to All Power to the Developing. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation.

22:50

In each episode, we introduce you to some amazing performance activists,

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Music.

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We hope you're one of them. Thanks for your support. And now back to our conversation.

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All power to the developing and we are back with our two guests, Karin and Mokmita.

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So we are now Now at the stage where many things have taken place,

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communities have been destroyed, people have been displaced.

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But you guys have made the decision that we are going to occupy the former Woodstock

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Hospital and we are going to turn this abandoned building into a home for people

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and call it Sissy Ghoul House. What were some of that those initial challenges of, you know,

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because I haven't put up a drywall before.

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I mean, I've done some some construction projects over my time.

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But to go into a building now dealing with structural issues,

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now dealing with electrical, now dealing with preservation of food, right?

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So there's so many things to really think about.

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So I really want to go there with you. What were some of those challenges of

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initially going into that space and turning it into what you've turned it into?

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Yeah, so the building had fallen into disrepair.

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I mean, when we first moved in there, the building was full with debris, with rats.

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The building had fallen into disrepair. It was vandalized. It was abandoned.

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But from the people in our community then who moved in there,

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they were the ones who then started to, I'll use the word fund,

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fund the repair of the building.

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And this was done through those residents who were artisans,

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who come from the poorer end of the working class, who are bricklayers, plumbers,

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electricians, and initially a lot of them who have done building work.

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They were in and amongst those families who were displaced.

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And that is where the repair to the building then started.

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And also, the repair to the building then continued with a monthly contribution,

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maintenance contribution, where each family or each household or head of household

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would then pay 50 rand a contribution toward the repair to the building.

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And in that way, the building then was transformed from its skeleton,

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from its vandala skeleton, into a home for more than a thousand people.

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When we moved in there, yeah, this was a derelict piece of public.

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You can just imagine, it's just a petit. We didn't take the before and after

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pictures, then would have given you a quiet atmosphere.

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A clear picture of what we moved into at the time.

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The place was full of dead birds, dead rats.

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The water was kneeling and the water already turned green because it was stagnated

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into certain parts of that building. The building was dark.

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Some places were cordoned off. It was barricaded with burglar doors and gates.

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Gates and where we moved

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into we before the contribution structure

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started we had to put our hands into

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our pockets and do everything ourselves hence

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we did you we reinstalled the electricity we turned back on the water we cleaned

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out that place for almost a month before we could could actually start moving into certain areas.

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And I was one of the families that moved in last in the section that I managed called Albert Road.

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And before people were put into rooms and things like that, because now we had

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to navigate our way through the space here.

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Remember, this was an old hospital. So we have our x-ray section,

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we have surgery section, We have the sensory section.

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So the section where I am staying was the old x-ray section, for instance.

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So you can just imagine every window being barred closed because where you take

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your x-rays, everything has to be dark. So I literally moved into a dark space that I had to put light in and things

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like that. So, each section of that hospital told its story.

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So, when people moved in and conformed the space into their homes,

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you would never say that we joke about it today.

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If you want to get to me, you go through the x-ray section.

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Then they will know which way to go to get to me.

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And another family lived where all the surgeries took place.

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They will just direct them to the surgery passage.

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No things like that. Today we joke about it, but when we moved in, it was not a joke at all.

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It was peer pressure.

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It was fear. It was anger. It was all sorts of emotions that were just infused with each other.

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Today we can sit off, sort of relax, but relax in the sense of relaxing because

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our fight is far from over, is far from over.

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And even if we are seven years in that space there.

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Still, the city is not giving up their tactics and their ways to get us out of that space.

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But not even they have something in plan for us other than those atrocious places

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that they want us to move to.

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And, you know, when we moved into this space, we too didn't know what the heck

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we are going to do here. But as we moved on, we had our meetings on a Tuesday and a Wednesday.

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And with this, we collected, we had a kitty box.

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If you come to the, whatever you could throw in there.

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And then as the weeks go on, we could offer you a cup of soup when you come to a meeting.

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We could offer you a cup of coffee from that kitty money that we put that box there.

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So things like that. And when we were really into the swing of things,

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we started to create structures and mandated certain comrades and they were

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mandated to do certain things.

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Hence, we ended up with a structure like our elderly structure.

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We had a youth structure. We had a safety task team structure.

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We had a maintenance, and those were all structures comprising of the people

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living in the space there. We made turns sitting at the gates, watching the gates, It's seeing that no

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element or unsavory character walk into those gates.

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And that is what we started.

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And up until today, we are working with that structure.

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And it worked for us then, and it is still working for us now.

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With our elderly structure, Karin and myself, we were on that structure with

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other monitors and leaders and like,

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You know, our elderly, these were people that were thrown out by their own children,

31:42

that were displaced by or put into a shelter all on their own.

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We took them and we sort of let them move and took them under our wing,

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but they were our elders. So we took it upon ourselves and became responsible for them in some sort, if I may put it like that.

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So this is what the city didn't want.

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They didn't want to see us succeed in this manner that we were managing the

32:15

space that they left there for more than 14 years.

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Going into derelict and just leaving that space there until they could find

32:27

another buyer for that particular space.

32:30

You know, when I talk about this, it just emotions flare up again because at

32:39

this government who is failing us on a daily basis,

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failing us and not eradicating or getting rid of this apartheid mindset of them.

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It is as clear as present day life, the way we are being treated.

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You are in a certain class.

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You are, you know, it's just, it's just very sad. Yeah, absolutely.

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It's just very sad. Absolutely.

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I can tell you that much. I want to speak a little bit about the emotional impact.

33:14

Because you spoke about the structural challenges and what it takes.

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But I really want to speak about the emotional challenges and what it takes.

33:21

You know, you're coming out of apartheid, people are being abused,

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beaten, displaced, literally being, you know, castrated, lynched out of society.

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How are you guys able to just have this resilience to continue this movement throughout all of this?

33:39

And then now having to deal with structural issues altogether, building all of this.

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How is it for everyone, you two emotionally, and then the emotional support

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that the community gives to each other to maintain this movement?

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That is of utmost importance. I'm going to give over to Karin,

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but I just want to say, just put in my two cents.

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For us, we don't see color.

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We don't see creed. We don't see religion. We see people.

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We see the need. That is what we see.

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And that is what we work with. These are people with different difficulties

34:24

and problems that they were faced with.

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And we became sort of one because our fight was the same.

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Our fight was the same. So we became one.

34:39

When we came together and lived in Sisi Kool House, it wasn't easy.

34:46

It wasn't easy at all. It came with all sorts of challenges.

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We had people who moved in there, who vandalized the place on a daily basis,

34:59

making it difficult for us to manage it in a proper and decent and dignified way.

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There are these elements that just made things difficult for us.

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That is but one of the challenges.

35:14

There were many others. When people died, for instance, with no families,

35:20

we had to take charge and see that that individual is buried in a dignified

35:27

manner and not just discarded,

35:29

you know, because this is a destitute case. We became a family.

35:36

We became one. And that is how we still stand today. I'm going to give over to Karin now so

35:43

that she can talk about the emotional aspects.

35:47

Both of us, we have also faced personal challenges.

35:53

Very sad situations on a personal level as well.

35:57

But through it all, we just had to just go on and do what we were mandated to

36:05

do, which is help our fellow people, our community.

36:12

We created a community when we moved into that space there.

36:18

Yeah. Yeah, so just echoing some more of the emotions and the sentiment that

36:28

was brought through by Fahmida,

36:32

you know, the occupation consists of mainly women, single women-led households.

36:40

And being one of those single women-led households, it really wasn't easy.

36:49

To navigate our way through this process of occupying.

36:59

But through it all, and I think this

37:02

is where we reach the point that we say enough is enough because there was that

37:10

point in time that we then saw the occupation as the only housing opportunity.

37:20

As a movement fighting for people's dignity, not our own dignity only,

37:26

we were fighting for people's dignity. As women, we have pushed through these seven years and built a community.

37:39

And right now, we are even imagining and dreaming about what the future of this

37:51

space or this community holds for each and every person who lives there.

37:57

And so, yes, it is emotional because it's our lived experience.

38:03

It's our lived experience as women. We live in a democratic country,

38:07

in a democratic dispensation, where women's rights should be equal to everyone else's rights.

38:14

But yet, when you look at the amount of people that are homeless,

38:19

when you look at the amount of people who are destitute, it would be women and their families.

38:24

When you look at the amount of people occupying and fighting for their dignity,

38:29

it is women who are at the forefront of fighting for people's dignity.

38:35

Yet, we still have a state that fails and does not recognize the rights of women.

38:43

And hence, I think going to go and do activism in health equity.

38:51

And people's social well-being and fighting for our dignity has been so important

38:59

for myself personally because of this lived experience.

39:05

And it's things that we face on a daily basis.

39:08

So it's not the two of us sitting here telling some fairy tale or some story.

39:14

We will not even try and romanticize what occupations are about.

39:20

But this is the hard labour, the labour of women and men fighting for dignity,

39:29

fighting to have a roof over their families' heads.

39:33

It is the hard labour that went into this occupation.

39:38

And it is prone to make us emotional.

39:41

It is prone that we would take it

39:44

personal because to us we say that

39:47

where people live where we live matters

39:50

we want to be close to the social opportunities

39:54

and amenities and economic opportunities of our city we have the right to that

40:00

we are citizens of Cape Town and we do have the right to our dignity we do have

40:07

the right to be close to economic and social social opportunities.

40:12

I mean, when I'm thinking back to COVID-19 and how we had to navigate our way

40:18

through COVID, living in a building that's occupied with more than a thousand

40:23

people and people living so close to one another,

40:26

we learned quite a lot during COVID. We learned from our experiences.

40:31

And the one thing that really still today stands out for me was,

40:37

and it's a lesson that we learned during COVID.

40:41

And as a woman, I take this lesson very seriously and I do apply it to how I

40:47

lead in the occupation itself and how I lead in the movement.

40:50

And that is that when COVID-19 started globally, the UN Rapporteur for Housing

40:59

distinctly made a statement to say that.

41:04

The right to access housing or adequate housing.

41:08

If people do not have that right during a pandemic, you are just as good as being dead.

41:15

Dead and buried. And it is at that juncture that we also then saw really the

41:21

strong need to have a home.

41:23

The strong need to have a roof over our heads and to fight and defend this roof over our heads.

41:31

And so we do so also by resisting. Any form of eviction or displacement.

41:39

And we also support tenants who don't live in the occupation,

41:43

tenants who live in the communities, the surrounding communities and in the inner city.

41:49

We support them when they are going through an eviction or when they are being displaced.

41:55

And the kind of support that we render to them is

41:59

to have what we call people's assemblies or advice assemblies where we get together

42:05

with tenants and occupiers and together we actually teach one another what the

42:11

law says about evictions and we also teach one another our rights.

42:16

So it's an each one teach one process and we see there also how people's power

42:23

is more important than those people who are in power.

42:28

And we also go and we monitor the courts. We monitor how the courts actually allow for evictions.

42:35

But we also know that in our constitution, it's cited that magistrates or judges

42:43

do have an inquisitorial duty toward tenants or towards evictees.

42:50

And so that inquisitorial duty is to make sure that the person is provided with

42:58

alternative accommodation. Where this alternative accommodation should be is another story.

43:06

And so that is the unjust part of things.

43:08

But we have the right to hold judges to account or the judicial system to account

43:17

for rendering people homeless according to our constitution.

43:21

No one should be rendered homeless. And so those are some of the activities

43:27

or campaigns that we have also embarked on from the very beginning of our movement,

43:34

was to say that we are a movement fighting for affordable housing in well-located areas,

43:42

close to economic and social opportunities, and resisting unjust evictions and displacement.

43:50

And so those would be the two values that makes up our movement Reclaim the City.

44:00

And Reclaim the City are the movement who has gone and occupied abandoned state buildings.

44:10

So there's more than one reclaimed city occupation. There is the Sisigu house,

44:16

which is the space that we live in.

44:19

But then there's also the Amatkasrada house on the waterfront,

44:23

on prime property, which was an old nurse's home, that also has been occupied by reclaimed city.

44:32

City and that is what makes up

44:35

this movement of the landless and of

44:38

the homeless resisting being pushed out of our city thank you and when it comes

44:46

to city goal house i just i'm just finishing quick on that um on this point

44:50

because my emotions really get triggered when we speak about what does it mean for us.

44:58

So what does it mean for Karen, for example, after almost seven years living

45:05

in an occupation, leading in an occupation, leading in a movement, fighting for.

45:11

Housing or fighting to have roof over one's head,

45:15

fighting for our dignity, community fighting for our

45:18

citizenship because as citizens

45:21

we do have the right to engage and

45:24

to be engaged with and and

45:27

as communities and so so what does

45:30

it mean for Karin what it means for me is

45:33

that there is this

45:37

building this specific building that we have

45:40

occupied has now become our hope and that we will defend this space and we will

45:48

also push and campaign for affordable housing on this space and in this space.

45:58

And we do so with our internal structures.

46:02

As Fahmida had already pointed out, we do have internal structures.

46:07

And on many of these internal structures, it is led by us as women.

46:13

And we pursue it. But we don't only just pursue what we are doing. We are also building a movement.

46:20

We are building a movement of women. We are building a movement of young people.

46:24

And we are also building people's hope.

46:28

We are building the hope of those who have been failed and those who have been let down by the state.

46:36

And that is our elderly people who may die waiting for housing.

46:41

Many have died waiting for housing and it cannot be that way and one thing that

46:48

we always do say in ending is.

46:51

We cannot live in a housing waiting list or database. We need to live in homes because we need to live.

46:58

And so everything about living in a space matters to us.

47:06

But where that space is particularly does matter to us.

47:10

And who we are also matters.

47:13

Nothing about us without us.

47:17

That is what we always say. For me, personally, and on the political side,

47:23

you know, when we moved into this space, we were labeled so many things.

47:29

We were labeled hapless criminals.

47:33

We were labeled drug headless. We were labeled alcohol sellers.

47:39

We were labeled, you name it, we were labeled all of that. Yet we want to get

47:47

away from this narrative. But the government is not giving, they're not changing their minds about that.

47:57

Because we have even invited them on several occasions to come and see how we

48:03

live, how we live in that space that we created into our homes. but they don't want to.

48:10

They're not interested because they don't want to see a success story.

48:16

They don't want to see that. They want to see destruction.

48:20

That is what they want to see. So for me, political is really personal.

48:28

And where people love should matter. And I'm going to end off with that.

48:34

Thank you, Karin and Fagmida, for everything that you have shared throughout this episode.

48:41

I would like to ask one or two more questions to leave us off.

48:45

Throughout this episode, you've described what we call non-growing knowing.

48:52

Living in this uncertainty and still pushing forward with your people.

48:59

As i sit here in new york city we have

49:02

a housing crisis we have a what we're

49:05

calling a migrant crisis the more and

49:07

more people i speak to in the states and europe and different places

49:11

all over the world there's this term the

49:14

housing crisis the housing crisis we see

49:17

buildings being built every day but somehow no one

49:20

has anywhere to live what is

49:23

a message of of of that you

49:26

could give to other people around the world that are also fighting that are

49:30

also because you know you you two have shown so much resilience so much urgency

49:35

fighting through this major struggle of both mental and physical what is some

49:42

encouraging messages that you can give to other,

49:44

revolutionaries around the world that may want to work in this field of land

49:49

housing and health of equity or maybe other injustices that they're dealing with?

49:55

I think I can go first on this one. Don't give up. Don't give up.

50:00

I want to say that first and foremost.

50:03

You know, with this housing struggle,

50:07

you know, it really gets to a point where I'm asking,

50:15

asking why should we fight for

50:19

something that is supposed to be constitutionally due to us, number one.

50:27

Our parents and parents and parents and grandparents have been fighting the same struggle.

50:36

Why do we need to fight for something that is so relatively important for you as a person?

50:46

Why do we still... Our fight is like a rubber. It's a never-ending fight.

50:54

Our parents have fought. We are fighting now what our children also fight,

51:00

with something as simple as a roof over our heads.

51:05

And we are not asking here for mansions. We're not asking for palaces.

51:11

We are simply asking for a place to call home.

51:16

Simple. Why do we have to fight? But I want to encourage others.

51:21

The fight is far from over.

51:26

But I want to say this, don't give up. I know people out there has long gone

51:34

given up hope of being put into a space where they can go home.

51:41

We felt sort of like that at some point too, even with our court case.

51:46

We felt like that when we lost our court case.

51:50

But all is not lost. That is what I want to say. All is not lost.

51:57

Even though it may seem that there's no light at the end of the tunnel,

52:03

some light is going to shine up there.

52:07

So don't give up hope and don't give up fighting for what is constitutionally your right.

52:17

Yeah, I mean, despite, so this is a global thing, right?

52:23

Absolutely. And then despite us and many other activist movements and communities

52:31

and even individual struggles to have a home, it's about having a home.

52:38

So despite all of that, despite our efforts,

52:41

right, the states have not been actors in trying to assist and support communities.

52:54

That is the common picture that I grasp from all of this.

53:01

And so my question in ending and my statement in ending here to encourage others

53:08

who are facing the same battle, It's a battle and it's a struggle for dignity,

53:15

is that who then are we waiting for?

53:19

And the answer to that is very simple, since there are no state actors supporting us.

53:27

I would say to everyone out there who feels that as if they cannot move forward with their struggle.

53:36

I want to say that the struggle continues and we are the ones that we have been waiting for.

53:46

We are the solution and not the problem.

53:50

We are the ones that we have been waiting. Aluta, continue up.

53:56

The struggle continues. Don't give up. Absolutely. And if people would like to learn more about you two,

54:03

learn more about your work, learn more about the political movements and community

54:08

movements in South Africa that are fighting against land housing and health equity,

54:13

where could people go to find out a little bit more about you two and more about Sisi Go Health? health?

54:19

Reclaim the city.ca.za. So they could go on to Reclaim the City's website,

54:28

which is Reclaim the City, co.za, or alternatively,

54:34

they could email Reclaim the City at Reclaim the City.01.org.za.

54:44

Yes, yes. And we're going to have that in the description section for you,

54:48

for anyone that would like to stay in contact and learn about the amazing work going on in Cape Town.