Drum roll, please… we are so excited to share this inspiring conversation with Michelle Cassandra Johnson and Tema Okun. From the very beginning of this podcast, we’ve named Michelle’s work throughout and, of course, our longtime listeners will also recall our early interview with Michelle on episode 5 (linked below). Since that initial conversation, we’ve dreamt of having Michelle back on with her dear friend and colleague, Tema Okun.

You might know Tema’s name from the now-somewhat-famous-in-certain-circles resource, the Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture article (also linked below)—for many, a guiding document outlining the insidious ways white supremacy shows up in our cultural narratives, practices, and norms. Tema’s work has been pivotal, for decades, and recently gained increased attention amidst the BLM uprising of 2020. As many white folks “go back to sleep” in the aftermath of that uprising, Tema’s role as a decades-long facilitator of anti-racism work models something significant: what it looks like for white folks to show up over and over again, over long periods of time, and the practice of centering love, compassion, and humanity in our efforts to challenge and dismantle systemic and cultural racism.

This conversation is an invitation to do just that—to stay in relationship, to understand our roles, and to work across lines of difference to create collective liberation.

Tune in, ya’ll.

Tema and Michelle discuss…

- Visions for the future of this work and reflections on its evolution

- The importance of not leaving anyone behind

- What it looks like for white folks to get out of the way

- Challenging individualism and ego

- The complexities of lineages, legacies, and accreditation in social justice praxis

- Cross-difference relationship

- Boundaries as a form of self and collective-care

…and so much more…

Connect with Michelle & Tema:

Michelle’s website

Michelle’s Instagram

Join Michelle on Patreon

Tema’s website

Tema’s Instagram

Tema’s book, The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race And Racism To People Who Don't Want To Know

Resources Mentioned:

ALL THE F*CK IN Episode 5: Remembering to Dream with Michelle C. Johnson

Prepping for the Apocalypse Means Building Community podcast episode

Original Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture article, written by Tema and colleagues

Revised White Supremacy Culture Characteristics / new website from Tema

Finding Refuge podcast episode with Tema

Dismantling Racism Works, dRworks

Michelle’s next book, We Heal Together

Be sure to subscribe on Apple or Spotify, and leave us 5-star rating and review on Apple to help other folks find us.

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+ CLICK HERE TO ACCESS A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS RECORDING

Thanks to Son of Nun and DJ Mentos for the music. You can find their work at sonofnun.bandcamp.com and djmentos.com.