0:01

Hello and welcome to another episode of

0:03

All the Hacks, a show about upgrading

0:05

your life, money and travel. I'm your

0:08

host, Chris Hutchins, and if you want

0:10

to create new and improved habits or

0:12

become a super communicator, then stay tuned

0:14

because this episode is amazing for that.

0:17

Now in 2024, I'm sure I'm not alone

0:19

in trying to create some new habits. For

0:21

me, it's mostly been around sleep, diet

0:24

and exercise, which is why I am

0:26

so excited for this episode because I'm

0:28

going to be delving into the intricacies

0:30

of habit formation and learning how to

0:33

effectively create, change and redirect habits with

0:35

one of the most knowledgeable people in

0:37

the world on this topic, Charles Duhigg,

0:39

author of New York time bestselling book,

0:41

The Power of Habit. We're

0:44

going to cover everything from the timeline to

0:46

build a habit, the five cues that form

0:48

a habit, the significance of keystone habits as

0:50

well as your environment and so much more.

0:53

We'll also talk about some of

0:55

his latest research on how to

0:57

use the science of conversation and

0:59

connection to train ourselves to build

1:01

great communication habits that can help

1:03

us become what he calls super

1:05

communicators. There is so much

1:07

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Terms and conditions apply. Charles

2:42

welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. Thank

2:44

you for having me on. This is a real treat

2:46

for me. Yeah I'm excited. One of the key principles

2:49

of the power of habit is that habits can be

2:51

changed if we understand how

2:53

they work. In the book you explain how

2:55

they work through the habit loop but I'm

2:58

wondering if you could walk us through the

3:00

elements of a habit loop and how habits

3:02

actually become habits. Absolutely. So there's a part

3:04

of our brain known as the basal ganglia

3:06

that literally every animal on earth has that

3:09

exists almost solely to make habits because

3:11

creating habits is critical to

3:14

evolution and what the basal ganglia

3:16

does is it takes these components of a

3:18

habit and sort of puts them together and

3:20

every habit has three parts. There's a cue

3:22

which is like a spark or the signal

3:24

that's a habit should start. There's a routine

3:26

which is the behavior itself what we usually

3:28

think of as a habit and then finally

3:30

there's a reward. Every habit that

3:32

you have produces a reward whether you're aware of

3:34

it or not. That's how it becomes a habit

3:37

and according to studies about 40 to 45 percent

3:39

of what we do every day is in fact

3:41

a habit. So for instance the first

3:43

time you tried to back your car out of the driveway

3:46

into the street you really had to concentrate on it right.

3:48

You had to like figure out like what's going on the

3:50

rearview mirror and make sure you're not hitting the wall but

3:52

by now you can almost do it automatically on

3:55

autopilot and you can think about other things while

3:57

you're doing it and that's because it's

3:59

become a habit. And if we could see inside

4:01

your brain when you got into the street, there

4:03

would be this little reward sensation that you're not

4:05

even aware of, but that your brain

4:07

notices and says to itself, oh,

4:10

I should make this pattern, this

4:12

Q routine reward into something that

4:14

happens automatically. And that's how

4:16

every animal has learned to evolve because otherwise,

4:18

every time we pass an apple or a

4:20

rock on the ground, we would have to

4:22

try and remember whether it tasted good last

4:24

time. And so in the

4:26

driveway example would be just successfully

4:28

parking be the reward? So

4:30

what happens is, is that your brain

4:33

anticipates a certain outcome and a certain

4:35

reward sensation that's learned to associate with

4:37

that. And when you achieve that

4:39

outcome, you get the reward sensation. Now if

4:41

you don't get the reward sensation, then what

4:43

happens in your brain is the exact same

4:46

thing that happens, its technical name is depression.

4:49

That when you anticipate a reward and

4:51

you don't get that reward, what we

4:53

see is a neurological pattern that's called

4:56

depressive. And so that's why for

4:58

instance, you might not be hungry, but if you walk past

5:00

the break room and you see some donuts in there, suddenly

5:03

you start craving a donut. Even though before

5:05

you weren't even thinking about them, because

5:07

it's triggered this habit inside your head of,

5:10

if I go pick up a donut and I

5:13

eat it, then the reward sensation is I get

5:15

this small like hit of endorphins associated with carbohydrates

5:17

and sugar. And so when

5:19

your brain anticipates that habit and doesn't get

5:21

it, it creates craving. The donut habit is

5:23

one that I both share and think I

5:26

would put in the less desirable

5:28

habit camp. Oh yeah, me too.

5:30

How do we make sure we're forming good

5:33

habits or are there good and bad

5:35

habits? No, to your brain

5:37

they're indistinguishable. Your brain is a machine

5:39

that just looks to make things easier.

5:41

Your brain always wants to work less.

5:44

So if it can find a reliable pattern, oh if I

5:46

see this thing and then I do this thing, I get

5:48

this reward, it will make that into a habit.

5:51

The truth is, whether it's a bad

5:53

habit or a good habit is kind of up to

5:55

you, right? And a difference from person to person. Like,

5:58

if I have a glass of wine, when I get

6:00

home from work, that's a habit that I really enjoy.

6:02

For someone else, that's a disastrous habit, right? That's something

6:04

that impacts them. And I should say I don't actually

6:06

have a glass of wine when I get home from

6:09

work because otherwise I'm too tired the next morning. But

6:11

the point being that there is a such thing as

6:13

a good habit or a bad habit in a state

6:15

of nature. There's just habits and we

6:17

have to decide which of them we want

6:19

to encourage and which of them we want

6:21

to discourage. And I guess the question there

6:23

is, okay, so now I've identified these habits.

6:26

We go two paths, ones that we have that we

6:28

don't want, what's the path there? And ones that

6:30

we want to create, what do we do? So

6:32

maybe pick which direction to start. The

6:34

easiest one to start with is how do we create

6:37

a habit? And there's a number of studies in the

6:39

power of habit, there's a number of stories of people

6:41

who create habits in their lives or their companies or

6:43

their societies. And one of my

6:45

favorite examples of this is that there was

6:47

this German healthcare plan that asked about a

6:49

thousand of its members to come to this

6:52

meeting. And so for about 40 minutes

6:54

at the meeting, they lecture everyone on

6:56

the importance of exercise. And it's a

6:58

good lecture, exercise is important. Then they

7:00

tell about a third of the room,

7:02

okay, we want you to stick around,

7:04

everyone else can leave. So two thirds

7:06

of the room they leave, the

7:08

third of the room that stuck around, they

7:10

get an extra like 10 minute lecture. And

7:12

in this lecture, the scientists say, okay, look,

7:15

what we want you to do is we want you

7:17

to choose a queue for exercise, like decide right now what

7:19

the queue is, like you're going to put your shoes next

7:21

to your bed, or you're going to call your friend and

7:23

meet them at the gym every Wednesday night, something

7:26

that will trigger the exercise habit. And

7:29

then go exercise. And when you're done exercising, we

7:31

want you to give yourself a piece of chocolate

7:33

right away. First of all, they're

7:35

German, so they love chocolate, right? But most of

7:37

us, you know, we'll go and we'll hit the

7:39

gym, and then like an hour later, an hour

7:41

and a half later, we'll have a piece of

7:44

chocolate. And we'll pretend like they're not related to

7:46

each other, right? Like we're not giving ourselves permission

7:48

to eat chocolate. But what they said is, look,

7:50

give yourself that reward right away. Make your brain

7:52

notice the reward you get from exercise. So

7:55

six months later, they tracked down everyone in that room,

7:57

everyone who didn't get that special additional

8:00

10 minute lecture, about anywhere

8:02

from 13 to 18% of them are exercising. That's

8:05

about what you would see in any population. The

8:08

folks who just got this 10 minute additional lecture who

8:10

came up with a habit loop for themselves, they are

8:12

exercising at a rate of 24 to 25%. And

8:15

that's huge. It's almost double. Yeah. It's

8:18

a big, big increase. The reason why this

8:20

is important is because it points to how we can

8:23

create habits. We create habits

8:25

by just deciding on a cue and

8:27

a reward that we can associate with

8:29

them. And then reinforcing that

8:31

cue and reward with the behavior over

8:34

and over and over again until it takes hold. It

8:37

can't be completely random, right? It can't be that

8:39

like the cue for having a great conversation with

8:41

my kid or asking my kid about their day

8:43

is when I go check the mail. Although actually

8:46

that could work. But the

8:48

point is the cue and the reward should be

8:50

somehow related to the behavior itself. But

8:52

most of the time when people think about habits, they focus

8:54

on the behavior. And what we've learned

8:56

is that it's focusing on the cue and the

8:58

reward that can yield the biggest dividends. How long

9:00

does it take for that link to happen? I'm

9:02

sure if it's set your shoes out and get

9:05

a chocolate, is it just the first time you

9:07

do it? Now, boom, set my

9:09

shoes out next time it's easy or? It depends

9:11

from person to person and habit to habit, right?

9:13

If you want to create a habit involving something

9:15

really painful, it's probably going to take a while.

9:18

If you want to create a habit of just eating

9:20

ice cream, like when I get home from work, I

9:22

eat ice cream, then you could probably do that in

9:24

a day, right? It's not going to take a lot

9:27

of... Now exercise is a good example because exercise

9:29

is a little bit painful and

9:31

eating chocolate is a little bit good. And

9:34

so what we find is that there's

9:36

no formula about when that habit will

9:39

pick hold. But we can say that

9:41

every time you do it, the neural

9:43

pathways associated with that loop will become

9:45

slightly thicker. And at some point,

9:47

you'll just start doing the behavior without even hardly

9:49

thinking about it. It could

9:51

be a week or a year or

9:54

a really various person, probably not a

9:56

year. In studies, even the hardest habits

9:58

become habitual in a... least three months

10:01

and oftentimes much, much faster. So like

10:03

30, 90 days for

10:05

something hard, if you're still going

10:07

and it's not working, what do you think the

10:10

most likely thing someone was doing wrong was? Well,

10:12

if they're trying to build this habit, they might

10:14

not be reinforcing it in a stable environment, right?

10:16

So like stability is a huge part of how

10:18

that habit develops. So for instance, one of the

10:21

things that they found is if you want to

10:23

quit smoking, the best time to quit smoking is

10:25

when you're on vacation because all your normal cues

10:27

have been disrupted. And so there's nothing

10:29

to remind you to smoke and so it's easier to quit.

10:32

So if you're someone who's trying to build an

10:35

exercise habit, but you're moving from hotel to hotel

10:37

every three days and you're waking up at different

10:39

times of the day and some

10:41

days there's a gym nearby and some days

10:43

there isn't and the reward you're giving

10:46

yourself is one day you give yourself a reward of

10:48

a smoothie and then the next day the reward is

10:50

a long shower and then the next day the reward

10:52

is a piece of chocolate. You really

10:54

want to get like a lot of stability

10:56

in that pattern because it's the stability in

10:58

the stable pattern that the basal ganglia pays

11:00

attention to and learns from. Okay. And

11:03

going back to the very beginning you talked about, well, we all

11:05

have habits. We know that the rock isn't something that we want

11:07

to eat like an apple might be. I

11:09

have to assume that exercise, there was

11:11

some habit around it already. It wasn't

11:13

that I just created this new exercise

11:16

habit I've exercised before. Am I actually

11:18

changing an old habit or how do

11:20

you compare that? So if you

11:22

had an exercise habit, you might be changing it. Take

11:24

me for instance, I was not an athlete in high

11:27

school and I really wasn't an athlete after high school

11:29

either and then I decided

11:31

that I wanted to run for health

11:34

and I built a habit around training for

11:36

half marathons. In fact, I went for

11:38

a run this morning. I did five vials and I hardly

11:40

even think about it when I do it. So

11:43

that's creating a habit. Now

11:45

it could be that for some people they already have

11:47

existing habits and they want to reinforce them or they

11:49

want to redirect them. Maybe I used

11:51

to run 10Ks and now I want to run longer

11:53

distances for a half marathon. So am I building a

11:55

new habit or am I changing an old habit? It's

11:57

probably a combination of both. But most of

11:59

the time when we talk about... changing a habit, what

12:02

people are really talking about is that they

12:04

want to extinguish a habit, right? I'm a

12:06

smoker and I want to stop smoking. I

12:08

overeat or I procrastinate and

12:11

I want to start procrastinating. That's

12:13

when people begin thinking about changing habits and oftentimes their

12:15

first step is not to say I want to change

12:18

the habit, their first step is to say I want

12:20

to extinguish this habit. The problem is

12:22

once you have a neural pathway associated with

12:24

that habit, that neural pathway is always going

12:26

to be there. Anne Graybiel who's a researcher

12:29

at MIT did a series of

12:31

experiments where she would have rats run through

12:33

mazes for rewards until it became a habit

12:35

and then she would remove the rat from

12:38

the maze for like three years and

12:41

if she dropped the rat in the maze and the cue

12:43

was stable then the rat would be able

12:45

to go through the maze like that. The

12:47

habit would take over. These neural

12:49

pathways once they are created they stick around

12:51

so rather than trying to extinguish a habit,

12:53

rather than trying to break a bad habit,

12:56

the way that we should think about it is that

12:58

we should think about it as I want to change

13:00

this habit and what that means is recognize

13:03

what the cue is, recognize

13:05

what the reward is and

13:07

find a new behavior that corresponds to

13:09

that old cue and that delivers something

13:11

similar to that old reward. Let's

13:13

take an example that I think you just briefly mentioned that

13:15

I know I can relate to and

13:17

probably many people which is we grew up in

13:19

the clean plate cub household and now it's just

13:21

a habit that like I have to finish all

13:23

the food to the point that it like if

13:25

there's crumbs on the table I'm kind of like

13:27

well somebody's got to eat that little crumb and

13:29

it doesn't make any sense. How

13:32

do I redirect that habit to something else?

13:34

Okay so let's diagnose this because this is

13:36

something you feel like you do right now.

13:38

I would say I'm like on the

13:40

road to recovery but by no mechanism

13:42

and I'd rather be farther. Okay so

13:45

let me ask you let's diagnose what the cue is there.

13:48

You're sitting at dinner, you're full,

13:50

you're not hungry anymore and you

13:52

see your kid has that plate of

13:54

like veggie dinosaurs or something like that

13:56

right. What for you is the cue?

13:58

When do you find yourself over? eating? I

14:01

mean, usually it's that I don't know how much I'm

14:03

processing this. It's like I'm done but there's still some

14:05

food on my plate and I'm like, oh, I don't

14:07

want it to go to waste. Like I'm a frugal

14:10

person and the strategy in the past that doesn't work

14:12

in all scenarios to your point about stability is I

14:14

would like, oh, I've got this piece

14:16

of bread. I'll just like rub it on the ground and

14:18

then it's like, you know, I try to

14:20

but like, you know, you're at a nice restaurant. You're

14:22

not going to be doing that. You don't want to

14:24

show your kids like, oh, when I daddy's done with

14:26

food, he pours a glass of milk all over his

14:28

steak. So okay, for you what

14:31

I'm hearing is that the cue oftentimes is

14:33

seeing a piece of food that

14:36

you know will be thrown away if it's not

14:38

consumed and that this triggers for you some sort

14:40

of frugality and things. That's very normal. Most

14:43

people when they talk about this habit, most of what

14:45

they talk about is boredom. For them, the cue is

14:47

boredom. I'm sitting at the table. I'm already

14:49

done eating. I'm waiting for other people to finish.

14:51

I'm kind of bored. The

14:53

novelty of another piece of food appeals

14:55

to me. But whatever it is,

14:58

there is some trigger. There is some cue.

15:00

And then we know what the behavior is. We know what the routine

15:02

is. You pick up the food and you eat it. Now

15:05

the question is, what reward is it delivering to

15:07

you? When you eat that piece

15:09

of food that you know you don't need, how

15:12

do you feel? Like, I shouldn't have eaten it.

15:14

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sort

15:16

of a little bit regretful, right? Or at least an hour later, I

15:18

do. In the moment, there might be a reward of like, oh

15:21

good, dang, I didn't waste any food tonight. Or

15:23

sometimes, you know, if I'm diagnosing myself

15:26

here, sometimes it's the food was very good.

15:29

I'm not really eating it. It's like the donut, right?

15:31

Like, I'm not eating the donut because I'm hungry. It

15:33

just tastes good. And so if dinner tastes good, I

15:35

want to finish it. I mean, and you can test

15:38

this, right? Like put some really disgusting food on your

15:40

table and see if you pick at it even after

15:42

you're done eating. And my guess is no. My

15:45

guess is what you're picking up is you're

15:47

picking up like the steak that tastes yummy

15:49

or you know, the sweet fruit or a

15:51

piece of dessert. There's probably

15:53

some type of immediate reward that you're

15:55

getting that's actually taste sensation, some feeling

15:57

of pleasure. So okay, so if

15:59

we know the cue is and the way that

16:01

we figure this out is we run experiments, right? Just

16:03

talking about it oftentimes won't yield what the right cue

16:05

and the right reward are that's actually happening but you

16:08

can run little experiments to figure it out. But

16:10

once we figure that out, once we say, okay, look, for

16:12

Chris, the cue is that when he's sitting at

16:15

the dinner table and he sees a piece of

16:17

food that's not going to get eaten, it triggers

16:19

this need for frugality, this need not to waste.

16:22

And the reward is that actually usually

16:25

the food is pretty tasty. And

16:27

so as a result, this frugality gives

16:29

him a little feeling of satiation because

16:32

you eat something yummy. If

16:34

we figured out that that is in fact the cue

16:36

and the reward, then let's find a new behavior that

16:38

corresponds to that cue and deliver something similar to that

16:40

old reward. So it could be

16:43

that for instance, when you see

16:45

that food on the table, you know that you're

16:47

going to have an instinctive frugality. So

16:49

maybe you have like a Tupperware that you just

16:51

put all the old food into that sits in

16:54

the refrigerator, right? Because that way it's not going

16:56

to get thrown away, at least not immediately. And

16:59

let's say that on that table, we

17:01

also have some healthy but sweet things

17:04

to eat. Instead of eating the dessert,

17:06

you have a slice of apple. Instead

17:08

of having the fattening steak, you have

17:10

a small orange. If

17:12

you put those in your environment so that you

17:15

can deliver that same reward, I want taste sensation,

17:17

I want that satiation, but I can

17:19

get it from this healthier choice rather than the

17:21

unhealthy choice, then you'll eventually latch

17:23

on to that. Because you're not

17:25

trying to deny yourself that reward, you're just

17:27

trying to find a better alternative for it.

17:29

I'm thinking of like, you know, those little

17:32

tiny Andes mints, I don't even like them.

17:34

But I'm just like, you know, some small

17:36

little thing. It could very well be that

17:38

oftentimes when it comes to food, what we're

17:40

looking for is we're literally looking for some

17:42

type of taste. And one bite

17:44

is as good as 10 bites. So

17:46

like a little mint will often do the trick if

17:48

in fact, you like the taste of

17:50

that mint, right? If it feels tasty. Oh, yeah, I

17:52

don't really like Andes. Maybe it's like an M&M or

17:54

something. Yeah, that's probably not gonna work for you. So

17:56

it's about redirecting nine. killing

18:00

because you just can't turn the habit off. It's

18:02

really hard to kill it and the truth of

18:04

the matter is that oftentimes figuring out what that

18:06

Q and reward is, is the hard part. There

18:10

is nothing I love more than learning something

18:12

I enjoy is actually so good for you

18:14

and nothing showcases that better than Puerh tea.

18:16

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notion.com/all the hacks. So

21:12

in the power of habit, I tell the story of this cookie habit

21:14

I had every afternoon when I was working

21:17

in the New York Times, like 330, I'd go up

21:19

to the cafeteria and I'd get a cookie. I actually

21:21

put up signs on my desk that say, do not

21:23

have a cookie or do not eat a cookie. And

21:25

I would somehow just ignore them because it was a habit, right?

21:28

I just would get up and get a cookie without even looking

21:30

at the sign. And so I

21:32

decided to try and figure out like, what is the cue and

21:34

what's the reward here? And oftentimes the

21:36

cues and rewards, they are tricky to figure

21:38

out at first. So the cue

21:40

is actually pretty easy because I found the urge

21:42

to have a cookie always hit me between about

21:44

315 and 345 in the afternoon. It

21:47

was clearly a time of day. And there's

21:50

five general cues that most cues fall into these

21:52

five categories. It's a time of

21:54

day, a particular place, the presence of certain other

21:56

people, a certain emotion or

21:59

a behavior that's become ritualized. So

22:01

for me, it was the time of day and that was pretty easy

22:03

to figure out. But then I have to

22:05

figure out what the reward of the cookie is. And

22:07

at first I thought, the reward is it's a cookie,

22:09

right? A cookie tastes really yummy. And I told researchers

22:12

this and they were like, oh no my friend, you

22:14

do not understand what's going on here. There's thousands

22:17

of possible rewards that you could be acting on.

22:19

So you need to experiment and figure them out.

22:21

Is it in fact that I just want this

22:23

taste sensation? So the next day, when

22:25

I get up to get a cookie, instead I get an

22:27

apple and I eat the sweet apple. And I

22:30

see, does that make my craving for a cookie go away?

22:32

And the answer was no. And

22:34

then the next day I try something else. Like the next

22:36

day I'm like, oh maybe the reward is I just need

22:38

a break from work. So instead of going up to the

22:40

cafeteria, I like walk around the building on the outside and

22:43

kind of stretch my legs. But still the craving is there.

22:46

And eventually what I figured out is, the reason I

22:48

was going to get that cookie was because when I

22:50

got the cookie, inevitably in the cafeteria, I would see

22:52

some of my friends. And I would sit

22:54

there and gossip with them for like 15

22:56

minutes while I was eating the cookie. And that

22:58

was the reward. It was a social reward. Once

23:00

I understood what the cue and the reward was

23:02

through these experiments, I was able to reprogram the

23:04

behavior. And now, 3.30 in the afternoon, I'm not

23:06

at the New York Times anymore, so it's a

23:08

little bit different. But at 3.30 in the afternoon,

23:10

what I would do is I would stand up,

23:13

I would look around the newsroom for someone else

23:15

that I like to talk to. I'd go over

23:17

and I'd gossip with them for 10 or 15

23:19

minutes. And then I'd go back

23:21

to my desk. And the cookie urge was totally

23:23

gone because it turns out

23:26

it wasn't about the cookie. It was a

23:28

vehicle for another reward. Wow. Okay. So in

23:30

that case, the time was there.

23:32

That wasn't the challenge. It was trying to alleviate

23:34

the cookie. What about circumstances

23:36

where there are other kind

23:39

of competing factors? So going back to working out,

23:41

it's like, oh, I want to wake up early

23:43

to work out. It's like, you've got to wake

23:45

up early. Then you've got to actually do the

23:47

workout. And there's multiple actions that need to happen

23:49

in a row. What Happens there?

23:51

Well, I Mean, first of all, we need rewards for

23:53

each because you're talking about multiple habits. You're talking about

23:55

a habit of waking up early. You're talking about a

23:57

habit of getting to the gym. You're talking about a

23:59

habit of. Working hard at the gym and so

24:01

you need to give yourself a reward for each of

24:03

those. But the first thing you need to do is

24:05

figure out. Is this actually a habit of

24:08

surrealistic? for athletic, If you hate wake you up

24:10

in the morning, you should not try an exercise

24:12

in the morning. At least not at first. The

24:14

fact: one of the things that we know about

24:16

exercise habits is the best way to do them

24:19

is to make them as easy as possible. So

24:21

in a lot of the Habit labs when they're

24:23

trying to inculcate an exercise habits, what they'll do

24:25

is I'll tell people what we want you to

24:27

do for the first week as we just want

24:29

you to put on your workout clothes and then

24:32

don't work out even to stay home and watch

24:34

Tv if you want. And then

24:36

in the second week we want you to run half

24:38

a mile. And inevitably what

24:40

happens is that people put on their workout

24:42

clothes for what day one day to by

24:44

day three, they feel pretty stupid putting on

24:46

workout clothes that working out. So they go

24:48

for a half a mile run and they

24:50

do that for a couple more days and

24:52

then there was a half a mile run.

24:54

Isn't actually that hard when I just run

24:56

a mile tomorrow and eventual he they develop

24:58

an exercise how. but that really works. The

25:00

don't have to build the full habit at

25:02

once I know is my lesson here exactly.

25:04

And what's most important is. If.

25:06

In fact that someone who never weeks up

25:09

early and to be thought of exercise in

25:11

the morning seems to quarterly unappealing then also

25:13

on look exercise in the afternoon exercise whenever

25:15

you feel like you would most one exercise

25:18

set that as the time of day when

25:20

you exercise and then eventually we'll see exercise

25:22

becomes a habit. then you can start playing

25:24

with the timing habits right? That's exactly what

25:26

happened with these. I heated exercising the morning

25:29

so I started running after work. And.

25:31

Eventually running after we're kind of became a habit and and

25:33

I was like oh now I can shifted to the morning.

25:36

Because. now i have something new to focus on

25:38

this the extras i started taking care of it's

25:40

the waking up early parts that i need to

25:42

really work on my have i was just bad

25:44

traditional wake up early in the morning and then

25:46

get caught up on all the things before you

25:48

get out a bad and he was literally just

25:51

put the phone on the other half of the

25:53

room and by the time you've gotten up now

25:55

it's like we're now i'm out of bed that's

25:57

exactly right you're basically hacking yourself from zero packing

25:59

your own habits or your own behaviors

26:01

because you recognize that when we're

26:03

in the grip of a habit, and this is why habits are

26:05

so powerful, we actually stop thinking.

26:08

That's what makes habits valuable is that I

26:11

don't have to think about how to walk. I

26:13

don't have to think about the route home. I don't have

26:15

to think about whether I should eat that thing on

26:17

the ground because I just let my habits do it for

26:20

me. So I can use my brain for

26:22

other things. And when the basal

26:24

ganglia takes over, your neural work associated

26:26

with that behavior goes down. So

26:29

you actually are kind of thoughtless when

26:32

you're in the grip of a habit. And by putting your

26:34

phone across the room, you're disturbing

26:36

the stability of that behavior

26:39

and you're forcing yourself to think a

26:41

little bit more rather than just go

26:43

on autopilot. And I would argue based

26:45

on my knowledge of your

26:47

work, just getting up

26:49

early, that habit of I'm now out of

26:51

bed felt like a keystone habit for me

26:53

because now it makes it easy to work

26:55

out. It makes it easy to prepare

26:57

something healthy for breakfast because I have some time.

27:00

Am I correctly using keystone habits

27:02

in that manner? And

27:04

how do they play a role in all of

27:06

this? So some habits seem to set up this

27:08

chain reaction that change a number of other behaviors

27:10

as well. And we refer

27:12

to those as keystone habits because when

27:15

a keystone habit changes, it tends to

27:17

have this magnified effect on other types

27:19

of behaviors. Now

27:21

what's interesting is keystone habits are

27:24

different for different people. A lot of it

27:26

has to do with your self-image. So let me ask

27:28

you a question. You said that for you waking up

27:30

in the morning as a keystone habit and I believe

27:32

that's true because it sounds like your workouts and how

27:34

you eat and how you sort of structure your days

27:36

is set by that. If

27:38

I went back 10 or 15 years,

27:40

were you a morning person? Probably not.

27:42

No. What about in college?

27:44

Think back to college. Like it's a Saturday morning

27:46

in college. How late would you sleep? It's a

27:48

good question. I was never someone who was like

27:50

on either extreme. Okay. You know,

27:52

I was never – I remember I had roommates. I was never like

27:55

the one that they all woke up and they're like, come on, come

27:57

on. We're trying to go do this stuff. But I was probably not

27:59

the one that woke up super early. early. So

28:01

I don't know if I had one extreme there.

28:04

That's totally fine. And my guess is, if

28:06

I described to you someone who wakes

28:08

up early, would you think that that's

28:11

a responsible person? Like, is that a good thing or

28:13

is that a bad thing? It's funny, I was just

28:15

watching a video of another All the Hacks guest, Sahlil

28:17

Bloom, and he gets a lot of flack for saying

28:19

he's like, I don't know anyone that

28:21

wakes up at 5am and doesn't like get a

28:23

lot done in their life. And he's like, I'm

28:25

not saying you can't sleep in. I'm saying the

28:27

people who wake up at 5 seem

28:30

to do a lot of stuff in their life.

28:32

Yeah. And so I guess that leaves me thinking

28:34

waking up at 5 is a good habit to

28:36

have. So there's a stereotype in

28:38

your head about people who wake up early

28:40

are people who get things done. They're like

28:43

doers. Now, by the way, there's very little

28:45

evidence supporting that, but it's a cultural norm

28:47

that a lot of us grab on to.

28:49

So the reason why waking up early for

28:51

you is a keystone habit is because it

28:54

basically helps you change your self image

28:57

when you do it. It's

28:59

something that's hard for you. It's not

29:01

natural. It's something that you associate with

29:03

positive behavior. And so when you do

29:06

that, you start to see yourself a

29:08

little bit differently. And our self image is

29:10

kind of an interesting thing, particularly in

29:12

psychology, there's these things known as revealed

29:14

preferences and stated preferences. And

29:16

so oftentimes, we will state what a preference

29:18

is. I want to wake up early. I

29:20

want to eat healthy. But what

29:23

our brain pays attention to is our revealed

29:25

preferences. If I say I want to wake

29:27

up early, and I wake up at nine

29:29

o'clock every day for four days in a

29:31

row, my brain basically thinks I'm a liar,

29:33

and I don't actually want to wake up

29:35

early. My near conscious self image becomes based

29:37

on my behavior rather than on what

29:39

I say I want. And when you

29:41

wake up early in the morning, the reason is probably a keystone

29:43

habit for you is because it slightly changes

29:46

how you see yourself when you wake up early,

29:48

and you're out of bed. There's part

29:50

of your brain that's saying, you know what,

29:52

I'm the type of person who can get

29:54

out of bed at 530 or six o'clock.

29:56

Like that kind of person, they don't procrastinate.

29:58

That's the kind of person who like gets

30:01

stuff done right away. And it

30:03

sets off this cascade of other behaviors

30:05

that you draw on as

30:07

being something that your self-image

30:09

appreciates. And eventually you do it

30:11

enough and you start waking up early

30:13

automatically because you genuinely think that you are a

30:15

person who wakes up early. It's funny that we're

30:17

talking about this because the habit of waking up

30:20

early is like two days old and

30:24

this morning was like the only successful version of

30:26

it. And the habit of waking up early is

30:28

actually really straightforward for me. It's just go to

30:31

bed early. If I go to bed at nine

30:33

o'clock, waking up at five o'clock is really easy.

30:35

But if I went to bed at 11, it

30:37

would be impossible. But the key here is that

30:39

the habit of going to bed at nine o'clock,

30:42

the reward is not waking up at five

30:44

o'clock because that's not a reward for you.

30:46

You don't associate pleasure with waking up at

30:48

five o'clock. If you want to build

30:50

that habit of going to bed at nine o'clock, you

30:53

need to incorporate some rewards into going to bed at

30:55

nine o'clock, independent of what time you wake up. I

30:58

think I get a lot of stress in the morning when it's like

31:00

I wake up and there's a few things I want to do, but

31:03

then the kids are up and there's stuff to do. So like

31:05

I want to wake up early. Like today I woke up at

31:07

like, I set the alarm for 5.09, don't ask me

31:09

why. And I think I woke up at like 5.05. And

31:12

it felt great. It felt like I could

31:14

wake up at this early hour without

31:17

it feeling like a drag. Tonight,

31:19

I am so excited to go to bed at nine o'clock

31:21

because it means that I can do this thing that I

31:24

want to do without a

31:26

lot of effort. So what's interesting there

31:28

is one of the things that we

31:30

know about rewards is that when we

31:32

decide a reward is rewarding, it becomes

31:34

more rewarding. So think about

31:36

getting grades. Like there's nothing in your

31:38

biology that says getting an A is

31:40

something that you should want. Why would

31:42

a normal human care about what letter

31:45

they get on a report card? Except

31:47

that your parents told you getting A's

31:49

means you're smart and you're good and

31:51

you're going to be successful. So we

31:53

come to associate the reward of an

31:55

A on a report card with a

31:58

positive feeling. But it's the deciding. the

32:00

reward is rewarding that makes it actually even more

32:02

rewarding. And so when you woke up this morning

32:04

at 5.09 and you felt great and you've been

32:06

thinking about it all day and you're like, I

32:08

could do this every day, this is fantastic. The

32:11

act of deciding that you felt great, the act of

32:13

deciding that this is a good thing, it makes it

32:16

more of a reward for you when you go to

32:18

bed at 9 o'clock. So I take back what I

32:20

said before, perhaps for you waking up at 5 a.m.

32:22

and feeling okay about it is in fact the reward.

32:25

Although my guess is also that if this is going to

32:27

become a consistent behavior more than two days, you're

32:29

going to need to give yourself some rewards when you

32:31

go to bed and you fall asleep, which are

32:34

things like you're going to need to like have

32:36

the room set the way that you want it.

32:38

You're going to need to take a couple of

32:40

minutes and congratulate yourself on getting into bed at

32:42

9 o'clock. That's why people use this lavender spray

32:44

because we know that lavender is associated with an

32:47

easy reward sensation and so when they spritz their

32:49

pillow with lavender spray and then they lay down

32:51

on it, the scent gives them a reward sensation.

32:54

My guess is that if you build more of those, it's going to be

32:56

easier and easier to go to bed at 9 o'clock. Which

32:58

by the way, 9 o'clock is pretty early. Like

33:00

I agree. My

33:03

wife goes to bed at 9.15 and I make fun of her

33:05

for it. I mean I would have made fun

33:07

of myself four days ago. But

33:10

I found that the more I think about

33:12

sleep, the things that I do from 9

33:14

to 11 when I go to

33:17

sleep late are not things that are

33:19

promoting good sleep and 75% of the

33:21

time are not ways that

33:23

I would spend two of my 24 hours

33:25

if I were making good decisions.

33:28

And so in a way, some of the reward of

33:30

if I set my phone away from the bed and

33:33

I get in bed at 9 o'clock, some

33:35

of the reward for me is like I know

33:37

better use the two hours than if I stay

33:39

up two hours later and wake up two hours

33:41

later. I think that's really smart and I think

33:43

a huge part of this is learning about yourself,

33:46

right? Paying attention to yourself

33:48

as a science experiment. So for me, it's

33:50

email. If I start trying to return emails

33:52

at 9.30 or 10, it'll take me forever

33:55

and like I'll just be frustrated. But

33:57

if I wake up and I hit the email first thing at 5.30 or so, I'm

33:59

like, I'm going to in the morning, I

34:01

like breeze through them. It's like magic.

34:04

And so part of it is just learning. It's not like

34:06

I'm a morning person. It's not like I like waking up

34:09

at the time. In all things being equal, I probably wouldn't

34:11

choose to do emails because they're kind of boring. But

34:13

if we see ourselves as an ongoing experiment and

34:16

we conduct experiments in our own life, we tend

34:18

to learn a lot about ourselves. I like this.

34:20

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So please consider supporting those who support

37:37

us. One habit related thing we haven't

37:39

talked about is habit

37:41

stacking, which I've heard a lot

37:43

about and I've heard the best way to build

37:45

new habits is to stack them on top of

37:47

other habits you already have. And what does the

37:50

Data or the science actually say about trying

37:52

to say, oh, I'm not flossing, but I

37:54

can brush my teeth, so do them together.

37:56

This is basically a phrase that's been made

37:58

up. So It's habit style. Lacking is

38:00

not something that there's like scientific evidence

38:02

of. Whether his scientific evidence of is

38:04

that if you create an environment in

38:06

which a habit is easier than you're

38:08

more likely to do it. So take

38:11

the teeth brushing example. If I'm in

38:13

the habit of rushing my teeth and

38:15

I make that a queue for floss

38:17

and. Then. It might make forcing a

38:19

little bit easier because I'm already in the

38:21

bathroom at the Floss right next to the

38:23

toothbrush right now. The true the matter is

38:25

so that just deciding I'm in a staffing

38:27

habits does not mean that fluffing becomes as

38:29

easy as brushing your teeth. And. So

38:32

for many people it doesn't. But in general

38:34

when were thinking about habits, sacking earth in

38:36

your hands, and habits, what we should do

38:38

is we should look for environments that allow

38:40

that habit to occur with the least amount

38:42

of friction. And so that's why

38:44

this idea of stalking becomes popular is

38:46

because once I'm already at the gym,

38:48

I'm already in my workout clothes. I

38:50

have a habit of going in and

38:52

using the machines. The. Treadmills right

38:54

there so building up running habit is a lot

38:57

easier then if I try and do it at

38:59

home where I'd have to change my clothes and

39:01

after you'll find a place to run. So.

39:03

The key is that necessarily the sacking except that

39:06

if the second gives you access to an environment

39:08

where they have, it becomes easier than you're more

39:10

likely to do it and then eventually it'll become

39:12

a habit. And I guess earlier you said most

39:15

people don't think about the queue and the reward.

39:17

Stalking forces you to think of the queue also

39:19

so your cat as max your third of the

39:21

way they're sure. I mean look, I'll be honest

39:24

with you, this stalking idea has come up a

39:26

number of times and like every time we talked

39:28

academics about it they're like to do doesn't make

39:30

any sense, Like it's basically selling a concept of

39:33

habits that. Is not with the science tells

39:35

us but if it helps you figure out

39:37

Susan Rewards of it helps you find environments

39:39

for habits become more likely than it's great.

39:41

I like it as in one other thing

39:43

is is somewhat tangential to habits. By when

39:45

I think about all the things I have

39:47

to do, I feel like you're someone who

39:49

has an opinion at least on how to

39:51

organize your tasks, What you need to do

39:53

been productive, setting goals to do less and

39:55

all that is. So there's a lot of

39:57

research has been done on like how the

39:59

right to do list the right way and

40:01

one of the big insights is that all

40:03

of us have what's known as a cognitive

40:05

need for closure. So. About

40:08

twenty percent of people when they're reading a

40:10

to do list, they will put something on

40:12

that list that they have already completed. Because.

40:15

It makes them feel so good to like.

40:17

Check it off for hates six and if

40:19

you think about it, that's ridiculous. That's like

40:21

the opposite of a to school has had

40:24

to do with is not supposed to be

40:26

things that you've already done just to engage

40:28

in some emotional management. So what we know

40:30

is that if you look at a to

40:32

do list, there's going be this impulse to

40:34

find some of the easiest quit of things

40:36

to do stir. The problem is that might

40:38

not be the most important are the most

40:40

impactful things to do. And so.

40:43

What? We should do is we should kind of have to

40:45

us. one is a memory list. When I think of a

40:47

task that I want to do, I put it on the

40:49

memory list and then I put the memory list to the

40:52

side. Spit it. Let's me. I don't distort my brain. a

40:54

concert on a piece of paper. My. To do

40:56

with. Should. Optimal. We only

40:58

have at most three things on it because

41:00

every night what I should decide is for

41:02

the next day's what's the most important thing

41:04

I can get done and if I happen

41:06

to get that thing done that's number one

41:08

of the list. Then I got the such

41:10

up really important thing to get done tomorrow

41:12

and then maybe this third thing is something

41:14

that I want to think about tomorrow night

41:16

to see if a deserves to be in

41:18

the number one slot the next day to

41:20

see where things you put on your to

41:22

do list given thought to putting the most

41:24

important things on that to do list. The

41:27

more successful you're gonna be. Because. The

41:29

problem is if you have fifteen things on a

41:31

to do list and one of them is go

41:33

wash the car and another one is right. The

41:35

Memo: That's gonna change my company. You're.

41:38

Going to go wash the car first because it's easier

41:40

and more fun and you can get it done within

41:42

minutes whereas writing a memo the to change your company

41:44

that can take a long time so you're going to

41:46

keep putting it off as long as there's other things

41:48

on their to do list that you can distract yourself

41:50

with. And. What about when there are things

41:52

that are small like and a register? Our daughter

41:54

for a preschool next year and it's gonna take.

41:57

Twenty. Minutes to argument aside and add the thing to

41:59

the card and. The need for happen tomorrow,

42:01

but it's not going to take that much

42:03

time. Do. I use one of my

42:05

three slots for tomorrow for a little things know.

42:07

So there's times in my day where I pull

42:10

up the memory list and I'm like look I

42:12

just need a break from work right? My most

42:14

important task to days to get this article done.

42:16

That number one of my to do list but

42:18

I've worked on it for two hours and I

42:20

need half an hour off and that's when I

42:22

bought that memory list and I'm like how can

42:25

I procrastinate in a useful way Oh I can

42:27

go and my daughter's website with Booking Travel For

42:29

some reason I don't know why I love to

42:31

book travel and makes me feel really good to

42:33

like miss my plane tickets and like book my

42:35

car. That's how I procrastinate is I have a

42:38

list of like tickets i need a books the

42:40

and that doesn't want me to do with his

42:42

was certainly are not the most important things are

42:44

done today. it's as for a trip that amount

42:46

of and for three months but when I do

42:48

need a break rather than watching to talk I

42:51

pull up my memory listener just look to see

42:53

as or something easy I can just get done

42:55

right away. The point is I'm telling myself this

42:57

is the most important thing to do today. Don't

42:59

let those other little shores get in the way

43:01

of the most important thing. I wonder if I've

43:03

inadvertently created. This without knowing their. The.

43:06

Way I set up my tasks is

43:08

I have a bunch of columns with

43:10

the most important one dark what I'm

43:12

doing now. What's. Up next and

43:14

like a backlog. Yes, and I don't

43:16

commingle the next three things with the

43:18

backlog. and when the next three things

43:20

are gone, I go hunt through the

43:22

backlog, which maybe it's kind of like

43:24

a memory list and move it over

43:26

so it doesn't have to necessarily be

43:28

completely separate. but the idea is separate

43:31

the next few things from all the

43:33

things. That's exactly right that is accurate

43:35

in the doesn't mean that he shouldn't

43:37

have a memory strikers other Israel for

43:39

get some stuff. Yeah, but it does

43:41

mean the you have to do lists.

43:43

That isn't about everything you want to get

43:45

done is helping you focus on the most

43:47

important things to get done right now or

43:49

and I got now. Before we get started.

43:52

We're time I habits and we're talking about

43:54

communicating a goal of a lot of ours

43:56

as as a crowd anaemic like but to

43:58

spend more time with people, let's get back

44:00

and acted And he made his comment that

44:02

so much of communication is actually habit. Yeah,

44:04

and I imagine that's what led you to

44:07

this new book. And I'm curious how you

44:09

think about communication, a habit tied into each

44:11

other. So that my new book, Super Communicators

44:13

was just came out. it's about the science

44:15

of conversation and connection I can to it.

44:17

Actually in the wake of the power of

44:19

habits, I would get all these emails from

44:21

people when they would say things like the

44:24

ideas in the book really helps me stop

44:26

drinking or helps me stop procrastinating or help

44:28

to start exercising and that's and great. That

44:30

makes unsuccessful. but there's all these other people

44:32

that I interact with the i'm reliant on

44:34

them for my success and they have bad

44:36

habits to tell me how going to force

44:38

them to change their habits and of course

44:40

the answer is you can for them to

44:42

scenes or habits but it turns out that

44:45

most of what we do every day is

44:47

dependent on other people. We work in teams,

44:49

we have families, The. Ability to

44:51

coordinate with other people is really

44:53

important success, and that's not about

44:55

habit formation. That's. About communication.

44:58

Break. His Communications: How we coordinates. Now a

45:00

lot of our conversations and a lot of

45:02

our communications become habitual. We fall into bad

45:04

habits. Effects: This is actually one of the

45:06

things that started me on this book. Super

45:08

Communicators is that Icelanders as bad Habit with

45:10

my wife were like I would come home

45:12

from work and I'd have a tough day

45:14

and I'd complain about my day and see

45:16

very reasonably. Would suggest the solution. Cities of

45:18

the Lights Oh you know, why don't stick

45:20

your boss to lunch meeting? Get to know

45:23

I'm a little bit better. And.

45:25

I instead of being able to hear what

45:27

she was proposing, I wouldn't even get even

45:29

more upset, right? I'd say like, where'd you

45:31

listening to me I'd swansea like support me

45:33

and have my back to be outraged Somebody's

45:35

house. And. This was a habit. This is

45:37

a pattern that we had fallen into. Your

45:39

We've been married twenty years now, so it's not like we're

45:41

new to each other. And so I called

45:43

up all these researchers asking what's going on in

45:45

that would they said oh look what you're missing

45:47

here as you're missing what we've learned the last

45:49

decade and is called a golden age of communication

45:51

that we're living through. which is that we think

45:53

about a discussion as being about one thing. But.

45:56

Insects. Every discussion is made up

45:58

of different kinds of conversations. And

46:00

most of them fall into one of three

46:02

buckets. There's practical conversations I can solve your

46:04

problem with like a plan together. There's.

46:06

Emotional conversations where I tell you how

46:09

I'm feeling and I don't want you

46:11

to solve my feelings. I want you

46:13

to empathize or once you relate. And.

46:16

Then their social conversations but as about how

46:18

we relate to each other and we really

46:20

to society particularly for of social identities that

46:22

are influencing how are speaking in here. And.

46:26

It's own. When you came home, you were having

46:28

an emotional conversations and your wife was having a

46:30

practical conversation. What we know is if you're not

46:32

having the same kind of conversation, say moments. You.

46:34

Can't really hear each other and you can't really

46:37

connect. And. Learning to

46:39

do that is all about building

46:41

the right communication habits With her.

46:43

I habitually notice what kind of

46:46

conversations going on here, whether I

46:48

habitually ask questions, whether I habitually

46:50

to listen closely and show someone

46:52

that I'm listening to them, When

46:54

your to homo sapiens. Are super

46:57

powered is communication. That's what makes

46:59

our species so successful. In.

47:02

Our brains are designed to build Greek

47:04

musician habits if we know the right

47:06

inputs to get it. If

47:08

we know how to train ourselves to have

47:11

the right habits. Then they become instincts.

47:13

So much of what you said resonates in our

47:15

household. Sometimes the roles are reversed and I'm defaulting.

47:17

the practical yes And I would be remiss if

47:19

I didn't mention a video that I'm sure you've

47:22

seen about a nail and if you haven't I

47:24

will send it here by. Dad is bothering with

47:26

a nail in her head and see trying to

47:28

have an emotional conversation and her husband is trying

47:30

to have a very practical conversation is for hitter

47:32

remove the nail. So here's an interesting thing smith

47:35

our relationship. It also happens a lot that that

47:37

I'm the practical one of my wife is having

47:39

in a more emotional com says it's there's been

47:41

a lot of studies. That have looked at

47:43

whether the that actually is true and it

47:46

turns out that there's basically no gender differences.

47:48

It's just that we notice the gender difference

47:50

when if it's the right category in our

47:52

had. Also. That's. Often.

47:55

Times we fall back on a communication

47:57

style that were most comfortable with sorts

47:59

of. Ritual for us, and often

48:01

times for men that's explaining things in

48:03

a practical way. That. Does

48:06

not mean that were necessarily having a practical

48:08

conversation. Like. If I'm talking about money

48:10

with my wife and I'm like we gotta do this,

48:12

We gotta do that. We gotta have a budget. It's

48:14

not actually Fractals conversations, it's it. I'm

48:17

having an emotional conversation, but I don't

48:19

have the vocabulary for those emotions and

48:21

so I fall back on my habits.

48:23

And my habits are very budget oriented,

48:25

A worse planning oriented. But.

48:27

I'm still having an emotional conversations so sometimes

48:29

we have to divorce what's actually happening with

48:31

conversations From what kinds of words are each

48:33

person using and where do we have started?

48:35

Is it more about taking incessant of ourselves?

48:37

Where do we go? So here's the single

48:39

best habits. So there are these people who

48:41

are super communicators And a super communicator looming.

48:44

Sort of the same With that is like

48:46

if I was to ask you this question

48:48

if you had a bad day. And.

48:50

You wanted to call someone who you know would make you feel

48:52

better. Does. The person you would

48:54

call to be Poppins Your Minds problem with

48:56

Yahoo is it probably either my wife's or

48:58

a friend that I've known since high school.

49:00

So for you, your wife and that friends,

49:02

they are super communicators for you. and your

49:05

probably super communicator for that. They probably call

49:07

you because they know that you're going to

49:09

listen to them. They know that you're going

49:11

to us, appreciate and support them. They know

49:13

that you're going to match them. Now.

49:16

There are some people who can do this with

49:18

almost anyone. they can connect with actually almost anyone

49:20

they want to. And what's the most amazing part

49:22

is is hop hard. Anyone can learn to become

49:24

super communicator. What we found a said it's just

49:26

a set of skills as some people learn and

49:29

practice until they become habit. And

49:31

the reason why that's important is because there

49:33

are these characteristics of super communicators that all

49:36

of us can learn from. And

49:38

one of those obvious one is asking questions.

49:40

says. Consistent super communicators. They tend

49:42

to ask ten to twenty times as

49:45

many questions as the average person. And

49:47

some of those questions you don't even registers

49:49

questions as a things like a which is

49:51

it about that are like oh, it's the

49:54

next, like they're inviting us into the conversation.

49:56

But. Then some of the questions they ask or what are

49:58

known as deep questions. And this is the

50:01

single best habits the someone can form. Is

50:03

to ask the questions and what's interesting

50:05

about it is the deep question. Often

50:08

doesn't appear deep, it doesn't appear overly

50:10

interests. That he course he'll be a simple

50:12

same someone like would he do for living So I'm

50:14

a lawyer or really what made you decide go to

50:16

law school. When. You love about pricing, the

50:18

law, What's. The best kiss you

50:20

ever settled. When. I ask

50:23

questions. What I'm doing is I'm asking

50:25

them about their values, their beliefs, or

50:27

their experiences. Instead. Of asking

50:29

about the sax otherwise. I'm. Asking

50:31

them how they feel about your life. And

50:34

what they're going to tell me in response to

50:36

something meaningful. And it's gonna tell me what kind

50:38

of mindset there. And if they're an emotional mindset

50:41

or practical mindset, or a social mindset, And

50:43

I'm going to be able to use that to

50:45

match them and invite them to match me so

50:47

we're having some kind of conversation the same time.

50:50

To the best communication how did you can develop his.

50:53

Get into the habit where you ask the

50:55

questions and it's really easy to do. I

50:57

do it almost automatically were thinking about and

50:59

so when you get that response have you

51:01

know what can a conversation they're having. Oh

51:03

I mean it's pretty obvious vs someone wide you

51:06

decide to go to law school and in fact,

51:08

studies have shown this. There. Was a

51:10

guy who participate in the study who was a

51:12

lawyer and they they ask him why did say

51:14

law school they awesome this multiple times with multiple

51:16

different questioners. And sometimes you would

51:18

answer the question by saying like I really wanted a stable

51:20

job and I knew if I had a law degrees I'd

51:23

be able to provide for my family. That's

51:25

pretty practical right? The guys that are practical frame

51:27

of mind split the same guy. When asked the

51:29

same question a couple days later by the from

51:32

person he said well you know part of it

51:34

as of civility thing but like when I was

51:36

young a saw uncle get arrested and I thought

51:38

it would really unfair. And. So I

51:40

always wanted to fight for the underdog. Guys

51:43

out in practical mindset. Right now he's an

51:45

emotional mindset or perhaps a social mindset, right?

51:47

depending on what he says next Than when

51:50

I asked more questions, how he reveals himself,

51:52

And. All you have to do is listen. And.

51:55

You can figure out. Is this person

51:57

talking to me? about how they feel about things? Are they

51:59

talking to me? About practical facts of things,

52:01

Are they talking to me? About how they

52:03

interact with other people's. It's not hard

52:05

to do. We all have an interior sense

52:08

of which conversations happening. We just have to

52:10

put ourselves in a position where we can

52:12

ask questions that elicit from this other person.

52:15

What's going on have had their head, how

52:17

they see themselves and they to the world

52:19

and then we just have to make a

52:21

point of listening to what they say and

52:23

ask yourself what kind of question is actually

52:25

happening and then is the intent to have

52:27

a deeper better communication conversation with them to

52:29

match their style. The intent is to connect

52:31

with them and often times the way that

52:33

we can act as through matching with in

52:35

psychology this enormous amounts in principle in with

52:37

a matching principles as as. If

52:40

you're not having the same kind of conversation

52:42

at the same moment, you'll fail to connect

52:44

with each other. Now, that doesn't mean I

52:46

have to be a slave to your desires'

52:48

rights simply because you want have an emotional

52:50

conversations. That does that mean I have to

52:52

have an extended emotional conversation? I could invite

52:54

you to get into a popsicle mindset, and

52:56

in fact, that's exactly what happens sick my

52:58

wife and I, for instance. Now we have

53:00

this new habits that when I start complaining

53:02

after work, she oftentimes ask me. To.

53:05

Want me to help you solve this problem for you

53:07

Just need to vent to get this of a purchase.

53:09

And. I really appreciate her asking and I might say

53:12

I just need to vent. And then

53:14

so listen to me that for thirty or

53:16

forty five seconds. So. Match me

53:18

and then she might say it's I told

53:20

him Search your feelings. It's really really hard

53:22

as seems unfair. Would. Be

53:24

okay if we talk about ways to improve

53:27

it. She's. Inviting me to

53:29

match her. and every discussion has all

53:31

three conversations, and that oftentimes we might

53:33

go from emotional to practical to social

53:35

and back to practical and and emotional

53:38

again. But. As long as

53:40

we're moving through those different kinds of conversations

53:42

together, we will sure each other. With.

53:44

Dangerous is when I move into an

53:47

emotional conversation and you move into a

53:49

practical conversation. Then. We're speaking different

53:51

languages, were not really sure each other. Can you

53:53

double quick? a little more on the social side.

53:55

I feel like that's one of the three. Like

53:57

that, I'm like I don't feel like I totally

53:59

grasp. Well. Okay, so here's a good example.

54:01

So where did you grow up? Outside Dc in

54:04

Virginia? Okay, into that shape you like. If you

54:06

had grown up in California, a few had grown

54:08

up in Mississippi. Do you think you'd be a

54:10

fundamentally different personnel? fundamentally the as strong to script

54:12

or would you be a different person? Now they

54:14

have a different yeah for sure. Okay Okay so

54:16

it sounds like growing up and D C that

54:18

seats your identity a little bit. Know a me

54:20

ask you this if you look back on your

54:23

life, when did you change the most? If there

54:25

was one period where from here one to your

54:27

three, or four, you kind of change a lot.

54:29

When would that be. Tight. I think in

54:31

high school? okay and what was your high

54:33

school like was at a competitive place. I

54:35

was a boarding school but I think it

54:37

is so I that elicits a lot of

54:40

thing for a lot of people but I

54:42

think it's pretty high school. I was like

54:44

a skater kid and then in boarding school

54:46

icao like found other people like me I

54:48

became I got a little bit of a

54:50

math and computer nerd and I gave his

54:52

is Chris Kyle like changing and can as

54:55

yeah built a little bit more independence in

54:57

entrepreneurial spirit. Whenever I talk about the history

54:59

of. Being. My God

55:01

life Hacker an entrepreneur it's him to all kind

55:03

of come up around that time and so I

55:05

like to. The asking you about was what was

55:07

it like in high school You suddenly just told

55:09

me so much right? what was it like in

55:12

Haskell the deep questions and you told me all

55:14

the stuff about yourself that like you went through

55:16

transformation that you're sensitive about, the fact that some

55:18

people think the boarding school has issues around it

55:20

that you admire kind of entrepreneurship and the hustler

55:22

mentality. So I've learned a lot about you and

55:24

if this was real conversation when I would do

55:26

is I would tell you about where I grew

55:28

up right? Said tell you about Albuquerque, New Mexico.

55:31

And to Valley High School and how

55:33

that influenced me and the reason why

55:35

this is a social conversations is because

55:37

we're not second up. Plans were nothing

55:39

about emotions were talking about is how

55:41

we see ourselves based on how we

55:43

think society sees us and based on

55:45

how society influenced us. right? The

55:47

fact that you grew up in why should

55:49

he sees the that has meaning for you

55:52

compare to growing up in California means that

55:54

there's something about Ccs that you feel like

55:56

is he reflected or not reflected who you

55:58

are. The. Targets. A boarding school

56:00

in that Like you say, like I went to

56:03

boarding school in. For some people that my race

56:05

misused, that means that like you're very conscious of

56:07

the fact that there's some people who I hear

56:09

boarding school and think oh like privileged yuppie kid

56:12

and the you know that that's not true you

56:14

wanna help people with no I went to boarding

56:16

school in is really meaningful which was really important

56:18

in my development as a good person. That.

56:21

Was her social conversations? because what we're talking

56:24

about his were talking about how we see

56:26

ourselves in the context of society and how

56:28

see others. Not the place

56:30

where this becomes really important is think

56:32

about discussing topics of identity. Like.

56:34

Race or gender Or

56:37

religion Or politics. Often

56:39

we go into that conversations and were

56:41

hyper aware of our own i didn't

56:44

see and others identities. And.

56:46

The problem is that when we are

56:48

hyper aware of those things, when we're

56:50

having a social conversations and we're pretending

56:52

it's not a social conversations, were talking

56:55

about policing and your are Black Biden

56:57

voter and I'm a white Trump voter.

56:59

And. We don't acknowledge these differences. His

57:02

social identity differences. These differences between

57:04

us. Then. We're not really having

57:06

a conversation. Now. I can

57:08

feel dangerous introduces, right? but there's a

57:10

way to do with that. Actually, study

57:12

shows the right way to do it,

57:14

which is. Instead. Of just

57:17

acknowledging one identity. Invite people

57:19

to describe all of their i don't it's is

57:21

asking open ended question about how they grew up

57:23

or or whatever. The question is. Yeah, it could

57:25

be asking open and question about how they grew

57:27

up so they can define themselves for you. They

57:29

can tell you the fact that they're black, whether

57:31

that and influences how they see themselves or or

57:34

doesn't fit. You can also just acknowledge it and

57:36

safety. In fact, I've had this conversation before When

57:38

we're talking about policing is to say to someone.

57:41

As a black man, I imagine you have some really.

57:43

Different. Perspectives on the police in question, but

57:46

I know you're also a lawyer. And

57:48

so you probably think about it from a

57:50

law enforcement perspective and I know that's like

57:52

me. your appearance, And. So you probably

57:54

worry about your kids in different ways and I

57:56

have to worry about my kids is I'm just

57:58

wondering like. You think about policing

58:01

given that you were all these different hats

58:03

think about are different. that conversation isn't saying.

58:05

As a black man, what do you think

58:08

about policing? Yeah, very different because when we

58:10

focus on just one identity, What?

58:12

We do is we oftentimes push

58:14

other people and ourselves into the

58:16

stereotype. that identity. But.

58:18

When we have knowledge which is what is obviously

58:20

true, which is that none of us have just

58:22

one identity all of us have. Dozens,

58:24

hundreds of identity use. When we acknowledge

58:27

those different identities, we escape that trap

58:29

of the stereotype. We give someone the

58:31

space to say to let me explain

58:33

to you how I see myself in

58:36

the context of i know that society

58:38

has all these preconceptions about the color

58:40

of your skin or the works the

58:42

you do or where the went to

58:45

boarding school or not. Let me explain

58:47

to how I see myself. Because.

58:50

Our see myself as probably little bit different

58:52

than how I think society sees me on

58:54

the solitary issue. The make sense neuro makes

58:56

total sense. I'm begging now. Okay, I want

58:59

to be a super communicator. Okay, I've got

59:01

a pass, right? So mit more deeper questions,

59:03

listening, matching and inviting people, other types of

59:05

conversations, Acknowledging identities. Are there

59:07

any other major components? Yeah, so there's

59:09

one of the thing it's missing from

59:11

this and and you mentioned listening. But

59:13

there's a certain kind of listening that's

59:15

really important, particularly when we're in conflict

59:17

with someone or when we're having an

59:20

argument or we just disagree about. like

59:22

anything. And what happens

59:24

is that when we're talking to people,

59:26

Pythagorean are talking to people in conflict.

59:28

There. Is this part of our brain

59:30

the become suspicious and a suspicion? Is

59:33

this? I. Don't think this person's

59:35

listening to me. I think they're waiting

59:37

their turn to speak, were hyper attuned

59:39

to picking up when other people aren't

59:41

actually listening to us. And so what

59:43

we have to do was we to

59:45

prove that we're listening, particularly if there's

59:47

distrust and we think they might be

59:50

suspicious of us. And the way that

59:52

we prove were listening is by what

59:54

we say after they finished speaking. And

59:56

there's this Texas to Harvard, Stanford, all

59:58

of the place called Looping. Understanding with

1:00:00

been shown to be the most powerful way

1:00:02

to do this. and it's pretty simple, right?

1:00:05

Step one is ask someone a question. preferably

1:00:07

deep question. Step. To is less

1:00:09

know what they say and then shrine

1:00:11

repeat back in your own words what

1:00:13

you just heard them say. And.

1:00:16

Then sept three and this is a when people

1:00:18

was forget his ask if you got it right

1:00:20

There's a reason why that's so powerful is twofold.

1:00:22

First. Off I'm proving to that I'm listening to

1:00:24

you. You can't suspect I'm just waiting my turn to

1:00:27

speak. Because. I've shown you that I've listened

1:00:29

to you, have shown you that and processing what you're

1:00:31

saying. But. The second thing is really

1:00:33

beneficial is the benefit for me as was. Which.

1:00:36

Is. Sometimes we get our own way

1:00:38

listening, right? Somebody says something we disagree with and

1:00:40

we start arguing with them and are hadn't. So

1:00:42

now we're not actually listening to them, were just

1:00:44

waiting to make our arguments. But.

1:00:46

If my assignment in a conversation is.

1:00:48

I. Have to pay attention well enough to repeat back to you

1:00:51

what you're saying to me. I'm. Kind

1:00:53

of hacking myself, interesting myself into listening

1:00:55

more closely. Knit really powerful

1:00:57

that's low as missing component of being

1:00:59

a supercomputer. One of the things that

1:01:01

I think to people who I feel

1:01:03

like might be super communicators. I feel

1:01:05

like they do all of these things

1:01:07

well. but they're also just generally like

1:01:09

good conversationalist. It's like even when there's

1:01:11

no agenda, they keep a conversation going.

1:01:13

Is that just asking more questions? What

1:01:15

are the habits you can build? Blimey

1:01:17

A You. You're probably pretty good conversationalist,

1:01:19

right? Yep, conversations have been castle time

1:01:21

when you hit a point when there's

1:01:23

a silence. Would he do so in

1:01:26

a conversation like this? It happens rarely, only

1:01:28

because I've done some research I have about a

1:01:30

topic I want to talk about. I have a

1:01:32

little bit of an agenda and I don't know

1:01:34

the person that well. When it's

1:01:36

a good friend. You. Know

1:01:38

it has happened. Actually three four months ago

1:01:41

we've had au pairs and we called our

1:01:43

obe hair who's in Spain and we talked

1:01:45

to her and we get to this point

1:01:47

where as like. We. Both want to

1:01:49

stay connected but like we've gotten the life update

1:01:51

from each other and we are kind of at

1:01:54

this weird impasse and I like all I could

1:01:56

think about was. I know some

1:01:58

people that no matter the conversation, In it

1:02:00

would always just free flow and feel

1:02:02

like you could talk forever and and

1:02:04

the moment I acknowledge like. Something.

1:02:07

About this conversation is missing that. So.

1:02:10

My guess is that you when you see really like

1:02:12

updates. My guess is that you're asking each other about

1:02:14

the facts of your life. right? You're asking

1:02:16

them like this, oh are you back home like

1:02:19

were you living now with your job But that's

1:02:21

where the deep questions become really powerful because of

1:02:23

your to ask. So like what do you make

1:02:25

of being home with would you feel like you've

1:02:28

learned about it. And Euro pair

1:02:30

answers that question. Is.

1:02:32

Pretty natural for you to kind of build on.

1:02:34

That said like when you are no pair you

1:02:36

learned that like you're a more responsible person than

1:02:38

you thought you were. I remember like when I

1:02:40

was in college I had the same experience that

1:02:42

when on this trip were like I ended up

1:02:44

being much more responsible than are worried I would

1:02:46

be in. That's actually changed everything for me. And.

1:02:49

I'm just wondering like you're going forward, are you

1:02:51

going to use out For how do you think

1:02:53

I've seen a change how you do things when

1:02:55

we as easy questions, when we ask people how

1:02:58

they feel better was that's what these conversations are

1:03:00

doing. And. Most importantly, they're not

1:03:02

only asking you that question. They.

1:03:04

Are answering it themselves So it's the most

1:03:06

natural thing to do is to say like

1:03:08

hey, like tell me how you feel about

1:03:11

high school? like what was it like. And.

1:03:13

They tell you that's a deep question. Then.

1:03:15

The most natural thing to do is the so it's oh

1:03:17

that's interesting. Like my high school was really similar. Like the

1:03:19

way I feel about it was x and y and Z.

1:03:22

That's. When a conversation starts becoming this ping

1:03:24

pong right? The thing that we pass back

1:03:27

and forward because if you're asking about facts

1:03:29

like did you make it home okay, how's

1:03:31

your mom doing? Did you get a job?

1:03:33

What's your job? Does. Are dead

1:03:35

ends? But. When yes someone how they feel

1:03:37

about their license at the facts realize. You're.

1:03:40

Inviting them to open up in it's easy for

1:03:42

you to open up in return. and once you

1:03:44

open up to each other, that's what a great

1:03:46

conversation is. The people whom you love talking to.

1:03:49

You. Love talking to them. says. It

1:03:51

feels authentic and it feels intimate that

1:03:53

feels like you can share things about

1:03:55

yourself and they share things about themselves.

1:03:57

Having evaluate a lot of this study,

1:03:59

this. What are coming to a

1:04:01

magic in the benefits in life that

1:04:03

come from this skill? Oh my gosh,

1:04:06

everything give you. Think about it again.

1:04:08

Communication is our superpowers. the species people

1:04:10

who are really good at communication. They.

1:04:13

Tend to do better than everyone else

1:04:15

and not just like in Successor, not

1:04:17

like just great managers. are there people

1:04:19

who are invited and opportunities as everyone

1:04:21

likes having them around since I see

1:04:23

so they. Are

1:04:26

healthier as they get older. There's a single

1:04:28

the. It's a Harvard study of adult developments,

1:04:30

which is what it's called. Now it's had

1:04:32

not the over the years, but it's the

1:04:34

largest longitudinal study that we have of happiness,

1:04:36

bicycles, And. What they found is that

1:04:38

there's only one thing the term ends. If you'll

1:04:41

be happy and healthy, eat at age sixty five.

1:04:43

And. That is if you have at least

1:04:46

a handful, at least one, preferably two

1:04:48

or three. Strong. Meaningful

1:04:50

relationships with another person. That doesn't mean that

1:04:52

you started them at forty, five, right? That

1:04:54

means you started them way earlier. Connecting

1:04:56

with other people, Is. What

1:04:59

makes us happy? our brains of of

1:05:01

falls to present. In connection

1:05:03

with other people leads to. More

1:05:05

opportunities and leads to the other people

1:05:08

liking us more. Interesting us more. It.

1:05:10

Leads to liking interesting ourselves.

1:05:14

If there's one thing you can work on in

1:05:16

life, The. Things would see the

1:05:18

greatest dividends is learning how to be a

1:05:20

super communicator. Because. Everything else

1:05:22

you wanted to. Depends on

1:05:24

your ability to communicate with other people.

1:05:27

To. Connect with them and to be able to

1:05:29

work together. Awesome! What would

1:05:31

you say that as a loop full

1:05:33

circle? The habit someone listening to gotta

1:05:35

put into action today or tomorrow to

1:05:37

start their journey to become a super

1:05:39

communique. So here's the habit. Let me

1:05:41

explain with the goal isn't Also with

1:05:44

the habit is. The

1:05:46

goal is to get yourself to a

1:05:48

place where you understand instinctual a that

1:05:50

the point of every conversation is not

1:05:52

convince someone or something. It's not even

1:05:54

a silly to find a common ground. The.

1:05:56

Goal of a conversation is to

1:05:58

understand each other. I

1:06:01

want to understand you and I want to

1:06:03

help you understand me. If we've

1:06:05

achieved that understanding than a conversation has

1:06:07

been success. And. So does number

1:06:09

of habits and help us get there. But

1:06:11

the biggest one is simply asking those questions

1:06:14

what you will find in this the did

1:06:16

It is unequivocal, honest. People. Who

1:06:18

are successful? People who are super communicators? People who

1:06:20

are successful than telling a places. If

1:06:23

you count the number of questions they

1:06:25

ask, it's like a power lot different

1:06:27

than the average person. They just ask

1:06:29

a lot of questions because when you

1:06:31

ask questions. It. Feels like you're

1:06:33

getting invited into a discuss if you want

1:06:35

to share something with a purse. And

1:06:38

when they show use of they're listening to

1:06:40

you and they offer something about themselves, engage

1:06:42

in reciprocal vulnerability or reciprocal authenticity. Then.

1:06:45

You feel close to them. Useless. You trust

1:06:47

them. So. There's lots of

1:06:49

different things that the book explains. You can do. But.

1:06:52

If he could only do one thing: It.

1:06:54

Would be that into the habit of asking deep

1:06:56

questions and if someone will say this I'm thinking

1:06:58

guess I want to be the person ask questions.

1:07:01

Like. Did they genuinely want to ask

1:07:03

more questions? And I find that it's

1:07:06

like in the moment it's hard. like

1:07:08

they've got these habits of how they

1:07:10

communicated. They need a break? How would

1:07:12

you apply cause some of the lessons

1:07:15

of habit to the circumstances? For someone

1:07:17

who's trying to change their natural conversational

1:07:19

style, So the first thing as

1:07:21

recognize that a deep question is literally just

1:07:23

asking someone like would you make a bat.

1:07:26

That's an easy question always fall back on.

1:07:28

somebody says oh I just went to the

1:07:30

to see you to at the smear. oh

1:07:33

really what's you make a that like what

1:07:35

was that like that's a habit A fallback

1:07:37

question they when can use but you can

1:07:39

also just practice it on your own even

1:07:41

without of the people. There is a city

1:07:43

that was done by some Harvard Business School

1:07:45

professors were their students were going to have

1:07:47

conversations with strangers and they told them beforehand

1:07:49

right down three topics on an index cards

1:07:51

that you can discuss and they were dumb

1:07:53

topics. A different seven seconds for them to

1:07:55

do. This was like Tv. Show last night in

1:07:57

the game this weekend and we're going on because.

1:08:00

Then. Another. Job there are not

1:08:02

going to the card in your pocket. He just scribbled on.

1:08:04

And go have your conversations. And.

1:08:07

People found that in general they did not

1:08:09

actually talk about the things that they had

1:08:11

written down. But. Almost everyone felt

1:08:13

so much less anxious about the conversations

1:08:15

because they had something fall back on.

1:08:19

And. So part of it is just before you go

1:08:21

into conversations. If you know this is gonna be

1:08:23

tough conversation if you know that you have a habit

1:08:25

where you tend to talk too much and listen not

1:08:27

enough. Just aside some general question

1:08:30

like what do you make of that.

1:08:32

The. You're going to ask whenever you

1:08:34

can. And. Eventually gonna be a

1:08:36

habit and eventually you're gonna do it without even thinking

1:08:39

about it. I like it. I'm gonna make a

1:08:41

list of like three things I keep in a know

1:08:43

the here again a guy my that have them. I

1:08:45

feel the last worried about anything I got that had

1:08:47

to take a look at about before so thank you

1:08:50

for sharing it. It's just come out Where do

1:08:52

you want people to go other than to buy the

1:08:54

book or to learn more are where should we send

1:08:56

them? They can buy the book on Amazon or

1:08:58

Audible or Barnes and Noble anywhere. They buy books Your

1:09:00

local bookstore as I say great place to buy it

1:09:02

and if you want to get in contact with me.

1:09:05

if he just google. Me Charles do his and

1:09:07

the only Charles Do hit on earth are

1:09:09

you can Google The Power of Habit or

1:09:11

Super Communicators and my website will come up

1:09:13

in. I'll mention that actually on my website

1:09:16

I have my email address which is Charles

1:09:18

Charles Do his.com and I read and respond

1:09:20

to every single email I get from a

1:09:22

reader listener. Because. I figure if you

1:09:24

take the time to like put your thoughts

1:09:26

together for me that I should respond to

1:09:28

those and it has like twenty thousand emails

1:09:30

and we've responded to so far as over

1:09:32

the last number of years. But.

1:09:34

I would love to hear from folks about how

1:09:37

they communicate with a sounds to be successful and

1:09:39

I promise you I will read it and will

1:09:41

read back. Judging by the number of people who

1:09:43

reach out I feel confident in his community. Reading

1:09:45

our dear anybody of you know how that the

1:09:47

how did I was a good I want to

1:09:49

hear Tell me if you think I did a

1:09:52

good job communicating and and by the way it's

1:09:54

Chris You are a great communicator. Like you are

1:09:56

super communicator. You do it that really wonderful job

1:09:58

of keeping the conversation going. In a spirit

1:10:00

of continual development, there are moments in my

1:10:02

life when I'm not as prepared as I

1:10:04

am for an interview where I still feel

1:10:06

like I can make progress and so now

1:10:08

I'm still putting some of the things in

1:10:10

a book and action as well. So I

1:10:13

think no matter where we are, even super

1:10:15

communicators can improve. I totally agree. I totally

1:10:17

agree. This is great! Thank you so much

1:10:19

for joining me today! Thank you for having

1:10:21

me on This has been really really fun.

1:10:23

I really appreciate. Wow!

1:10:26

I feel like I learned so much today

1:10:28

and I am excited to start creating. More

1:10:30

positive healthy habits in my life and

1:10:32

become a super communicator And I hope

1:10:34

you feel the same If you do,

1:10:36

please consider one tiny Easy Action that

1:10:38

has such a huge impact on my

1:10:40

life and this podcast and that's just

1:10:42

clicking the follow or subscribe button and

1:10:44

your podcast app if you haven't already.

1:10:46

Also, if you enjoyed this episode, please

1:10:48

share with a friend, colleague, or family

1:10:50

member or really any when you think

1:10:52

might benefit from it. Thank you so

1:10:55

much in advance. That's it for this

1:10:57

week. I will see you next week.

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