0:55

Hello and thanks again for listening to another

0:57

episode of All Better . I'm

1:00

your host , joe Van Wee . Today's

1:03

guest is my friend , elaine Donnelly

1:06

. Elaine and I

1:08

discuss today her entry

1:10

into recovery in 1987

1:13

, the end of an

1:15

addiction that began in the 60s

1:17

and 70s . We also discuss

1:20

that period of history distinctly

1:22

under a term called cultural amnesia

1:25

. We're about two

1:28

decades seeing political civil

1:30

rights leaders assassinated at

1:32

a frequency of every three

1:35

to four years , some

1:37

of these televised , captured

1:40

by a form of media , what

1:42

that does to a person's security

1:44

and how we forget what violence

1:47

looks like Monthly

1:49

or daily , or the words of violence

1:51

being used in a political context . We

1:55

talk about many other things . I'm

1:58

very excited for you to

2:00

meet Elaine here

2:09

with Elaine Donnelly , and she's already

2:11

lying . She's lying about breakfast

2:13

. She asked her what she ate for breakfast

2:15

for a sound check , and she said a Nutri-Crain

2:17

bar .

2:19

That was a lie .

2:20

I love liars . Elaine

2:23

, thanks for coming on .

2:25

Joe , thanks for having me . I really

2:27

, really am honored .

2:29

Yeah , not yet . I'm just doing

2:31

a weird podcast . Who knows what we're going to say . That's

2:33

it . It could

2:35

ruin the rest of your life .

2:37

I don't think you're that powerful .

2:39

No , I don't think so . My dog

2:41

thought I was pretty slick , but that was it .

2:45

That's why we love dogs .

2:46

I haven't seen you in a while and we're trying

2:48

to figure it out . When you arrived

2:50

, I

2:53

remember I used to see you every day downtown

2:55

and we get to catch up . We

2:58

have a history of doing a

3:00

couple projects together with

3:02

arts and arts alive .

3:06

And children Joe .

3:07

And children , yeah .

3:09

And you were in school South Indian media and you were wonderful

3:11

with them .

3:12

It was fun .

3:14

And your staff .

3:16

Yeah .

3:16

Tim Calvin being one of them .

3:18

It was Tim Calvin Lindsey Barris

3:20

and Dave Grigliano who

3:23

I missed dearly . They live in Asheville

3:25

.

3:26

Oh okay .

3:30

Well , I guess I would have to go back

3:32

my first memory of meeting you . I

3:34

was probably a teenager and

3:36

I was dropped off to alcohol

3:38

and A&A

3:41

and around the recovery community

3:43

of that time and

3:45

I think that was kind of my first run-ins

3:47

with you . But

3:50

I thought maybe we can talk about you today

3:52

. A little background and

3:55

the time you spent in your career , what

3:57

do you think ?

3:58

Oh yeah , oh yeah , it's

4:01

all an open book , joe . Yeah

4:03

, it really is

4:05

. What year did you get

4:07

dropped off ? 1994. , so

4:10

yeah , I had been there for a while . I

4:13

got sober in January of 86

4:15

. Wow yeah .

4:17

Were you part of the Marworth crew ? The people that

4:20

went through Marworth .

4:20

No , as my first sponsor used to say

4:23

, kiss my ring . I never went to a rehab

4:25

. Kiss my ring , kiss

4:27

my ring , yeah no , I was like

4:29

the primordial slime that

4:31

came right underneath the door . I was

4:34

. I

4:36

had given up on life . I

4:38

didn't want to be alive . I

4:41

had no place else to go . The

4:44

only reason I went to AA was everybody

4:47

else was going . That was because

4:49

I was only with people that

4:51

were very , very ill , and

4:54

it turns out I was probably

4:56

as ill or more ill than any of them

4:58

and it took me longer to get there because

5:01

of it . In 86

5:03

, I was so

5:05

alone and you

5:08

know , a little information goes

5:10

a long way . So I

5:12

knew that suicide

5:16

, you

5:18

know , when someone in a family

5:21

dies by suicide it

5:23

kind of becomes a part of the dropdown

5:26

menu of options for , you

5:28

know , resolutions and with

5:30

problems . There

5:33

wasn't any reason at all that I could ever think

5:35

of from my two children to die by

5:38

suicide , but

5:40

so I couldn't , for their sake

5:42

, my last decent

5:44

act as a mother , I think that was what

5:47

that was . So I used to

5:49

lay in bed and pray to a God that I hated

5:52

. I loathed for putting

5:54

me in this position , which is ridiculous

5:56

. But you know that's where I was at that time , and

5:59

begging him to let me die . You

6:01

know , if you're going to make me suffer this

6:04

way , at least let me stop

6:06

suffering at one point or another . And of course

6:08

, he didn't take

6:10

my option for that either , and

6:12

so I was dropped off at AA .

6:14

Yeah , how old

6:16

would you say you were ? I was 32 . Don't

6:19

want to live your mother addictions

6:22

. It's not even a refuge

6:24

. I would assume , any more of the way you're speaking , that

6:26

whatever you're using wasn't

6:28

even causing any temporary relief

6:30

.

6:31

No , I wasn't getting any relief at all and

6:34

, yeah , I

6:36

had stopped getting any kind of you

6:39

know high from anything , from

6:42

any substance and

6:44

, um , you know , I was just

6:46

my emotions were all over

6:48

the place . My behavior was driving

6:51

those emotions . My behavior was an

6:53

abomination to everybody around

6:55

me . You know , people were people

6:58

that cared about me , were confronting

7:00

me . I mean , I had people you

7:02

know were very , very blunt and very

7:04

honest and well , this is really painful

7:06

to talk about . No , you know , it doesn't

7:08

matter how long you're sober or how

7:11

many times you've talked about it when you

7:13

reflect on how much

7:15

pain you put into the world . I

7:18

don't know that you could ever put

7:21

enough love into the world to compensate

7:23

for that , you know . But that's the

7:25

solution , isn't it ? So

7:27

I , yeah , I was so forlorn

7:30

, I was so , I felt so

7:33

forsaken . I did not see

7:35

the , the

7:38

comments and confrontations

7:40

and consequences of that . People

7:42

were um , metting out to me

7:44

to be commensurate with what

7:47

I was doing . I could be . I

7:49

couldn't see it all . The only thing I could

7:51

do was be mad at them and hate

7:53

them and hate God , and I hated

7:55

everything .

7:56

Wow , that's a lot of pain .

7:57

Yes , it was a lot of pain

8:00

.

8:00

Joe , it's . There's something that shines out to me . I

8:02

was raised Catholic and I were

8:05

you . Did you rate ? Were you raised Catholic

8:07

?

8:08

or Christian , it's , patrick , it's . Oh

8:10

yeah , my

8:12

dad went to mass every day .

8:14

Well , there's two paradoxes , I think , that

8:16

is common to people with not

8:19

only addiction but a Catholic background

8:21

or any kind of Christian , messianic

8:24

background . At

8:26

no point did it seem to stop believing

8:29

in God and what you said . But you

8:31

also think he's the cause of

8:33

. There is no way to reconcile this . He

8:35

either created everything or

8:37

somehow he is like just you

8:40

know . You can't blame him for

8:42

anything . I don't know where that

8:44

this makes sense . And

8:47

to still

8:49

have that that there's a boss of the universe

8:51

. And here you

8:53

are as a conscious person and

8:55

your entire life has been just now

8:58

whittled down to the existence

9:00

of pain and you can't escape it . And

9:02

instead of knowing there's

9:05

a way out , you've already reconciled there's no way out

9:07

at 32 . I'm stuck in pain

9:09

. Please really leave me of consciousness . Yeah

9:11

, that's that's intense . And

9:16

then the other paradox that kind of jumped

9:18

out at me that we could talk

9:20

about is like all right , I've caused

9:22

pain and I have to

9:25

that you . There's

9:27

no way to put back the love that

9:30

into the world to kind of compensate for

9:32

this or that it could . There's

9:35

, there's , there's a weird absurdity , philosophically

9:38

at this rate , that what

9:40

is love if there is no pain ? I

9:43

don't think the human mind could , you can't make

9:45

a plane of understanding in your

9:47

mind to understand , unless there

9:49

are opposites .

9:51

Oh , we're definitely a world of dualities

9:54

black and white , in and out , up and down

9:56

, tall and short , et cetera , a male and

9:58

female , and it's , yeah

10:00

, it's so , that's our understanding

10:03

. That's the only understanding

10:05

that I had . Well , now am I , you know

10:07

, 30, ? How

10:09

many years ? Is it 37 years ? I don't even

10:12

know .

10:12

I have a calculator .

10:13

Yeah , 86 to somebody out

10:16

there . Do the math . That's listening . You

10:19

know , in that number of years

10:21

I have questioned

10:25

a lot of that and thought about

10:27

that and you know um

10:29

debated that , and

10:33

so I have more answers that

10:35

I'm comfortable with now than I did then . But

10:37

no , I don't , you know I . So

10:40

my , my dad was my

10:42

hero . Um , like I said , he he

10:44

was . He really was one of

10:47

the people , along with my grandparents

10:49

, who , uh , really saved

10:51

me , and when I what ? What I mean

10:54

by that is he was the one who

10:56

used to say you're

10:58

a good girl , I know that you'll do the right

11:00

thing , and he was

11:02

, would always built .

11:03

Did he say that to you as an adult

11:05

? A good girl .

11:07

Um , it was mostly in my teen

11:10

years when the going got

11:12

rough , and then I , with my mom . My

11:14

mom was very strong

11:16

woman . She really

11:18

wasn't . She was very fearful , but she came

11:20

on , her demeanor was

11:23

very powerful , she was like a dragon

11:25

. And so , uh , we

11:27

, we , and she was an alcoholic . So

11:30

, um , you know , she didn't have very

11:32

many coping skills . My mother loved me

11:34

and she was loyal to me and , you

11:36

know , blah , blah , blah , on

11:38

and on , um , you know , I , I

11:41

, I love her and I miss her every single day . But

11:43

we went after each other like

11:45

two Tyrannosaurus rexism . And there

11:47

was my dad in the middle , and so

11:50

he was blamed by my mother

11:52

for siding with me , and then he would

11:54

get me in the car . I was crying

11:56

and he was dropping me off at a friend's house

11:58

. You know the typical scenario

12:00

. And I'm telling me that I was a good

12:02

girl . You know your mother don't listen

12:04

to her . So , and my grandparents

12:07

were , were very supportive . Um

12:09

, I lost one , one grandmother

12:11

, when I was , uh , just

12:13

12 , I had just turned 12 . And

12:16

I was very close to her , but I had two that were

12:18

left , and both of them , my

12:21

father's mother and my mother's

12:23

father both told me that the reason

12:25

my mother treated me the way she did was because

12:27

she drank too much , and

12:29

I didn't believe them . I thought , oh , they just

12:32

love me , you know , I don't think

12:34

she drank too much . Well

12:36

, she had our disease . I mean

12:39

there was , you know . You

12:42

know , I mean I have my theory about some of

12:44

the pain that my mother endured and

12:46

the lack of experience she had and the

12:48

lack of help . And you know , one

12:51

thing led to another . But you know , as

12:53

the case may be , she

12:55

drank and she drank , and she drank

12:57

and she drank , and

13:00

and we were very

13:02

different people to begin with and

13:05

I , you know , she perceived that as letting

13:07

her down and

13:09

I did the same thing . I mean it was , you

13:12

know , it was a bad scene

13:14

, but you know , in the end see , that's

13:16

the point that I was making is , after all

13:19

of these years , I can say this

13:21

is my mother , this is who my mother was . I

13:23

mean , I have friends from my childhood . We

13:26

still laugh about Julie . You know

13:28

what I mean . We have Julie's

13:30

stories . Remember when Julie this , remember

13:32

when Julie that , but I loved her

13:34

. I mean she . You know I stir

13:36

my pots of soup with her

13:38

wooden spoon and you know

13:40

and I know who she was , and

13:43

I also know right now how

13:45

afraid she was and how she

13:47

had no solutions .

13:49

And when was the first time you considered

13:52

that what she had was fear ? That

13:54

was that , was that . Were you able to articulate

13:57

that in your twenties , like in the seventies , like

14:00

no ? Did it come after your own ?

14:02

After I was sober after I was sober and

14:04

I understood what fear was . You

14:06

know , after I sifted through uh

14:09

, what's the difference between anger and ? And

14:11

where does that come from ? Oh , it's fear . Uh

14:15

, you know all of the insecure . To me

14:17

, everything boils down to fear

14:19

, and you can put

14:21

it into different um cubicles

14:24

, but it's fear .

14:26

I wish you would have told me that , elaine , when I was

14:28

16 . You would have saved me .

14:29

I'm sorry , joe , I would have done

14:31

that if I had only known it's 36

14:34

years 36

14:36

.

14:36

Okay , here's the math . I did

14:38

20 , 23 minus 1,900

14:41

.

14:44

I knew at the day , I celebrated it , just I

14:46

lose track of it 36

14:48

years yeah . Wow yeah , so

14:51

I've been sober longer than I was

14:53

alive when I got sober Interesting

14:56

.

14:56

It is , and

14:59

I wanted to talk , maybe after

15:02

what I heard you say , because I could relate

15:04

to this , and I still do , now that

15:06

I have two kids . I feel

15:08

like I'm understanding my dad more

15:10

and more now that he's dead .

15:12

Yes .

15:13

And the more and more I get older , and

15:15

this , this couldn't have been any

15:17

way accessible to me without time or

15:20

just the luck of staying alive longer

15:22

.

15:23

Now , that's the paradox of the ages

15:25

. I'm watching it with my

15:27

children and my grandchildren

15:30

. Um , you know , there's still

15:32

10 and seven , but I

15:34

, um , I know that

15:36

they won't know what I know until

15:38

they're my age

15:40

and you

15:43

know you're not going to know anything more

15:45

than you know . It's I , I and I

15:47

try , you know , I try to use

15:49

words to , like you

15:51

know , introduce concepts and ideas

15:54

, but we have to have experience

15:56

wed with that .

15:57

Yeah , it's weird . We're a gen , we're a generational

16:00

species . Um , and I , you

16:02

don't think of that way all day , you

16:04

don't think of yourself that way . Um

16:08

, and just out of the the

16:10

average understanding that most

16:12

people don't know their great great grandfather's name . Like

16:15

like it's not top of mind , even if

16:17

you did know or may know Um

16:20

, so that he wasn't even remembered and

16:22

he's what produced me . Yes

16:24

, and it takes this

16:26

long to know someone . Now that we

16:28

could live this long to 80

16:30

. Um , it's

16:32

just strange that it just doesn't

16:35

seem , uh , it

16:37

seems new to the newest part of the brain . It

16:40

takes this long to know a person . That that complexity

16:42

, that I'm still getting to know someone

16:44

. They're dead and they're living in my head . Yeah

16:47

, um , that's why I need recovery

16:49

for that . I have such a dynamic thing

16:51

going down in my head . I know you do . Oh

16:53

, yeah , I have another life in there . That's just

16:56

like inaccessible . Um , were

16:58

you a hippie in the seventies ? Were

17:01

you attracted to the movement ?

17:02

It's been , it's been rumored , yeah , yeah

17:05

, yes , I

17:07

mean black armed bands , army jackets . I mean my , you know

17:09

my , my mother's became my mother , um

17:11

, lost her brother

17:13

, uh , parachuting into Normandy

17:16

on D day . He was with the 82nd airborne

17:18

and I had no appreciation . There it

17:20

is , there's the age thing . I had no

17:22

appreciation for that at all . I

17:25

knew the Vietnam war was wrong and

17:27

I was pursuing that idea and

17:30

I was arrogant as hell about

17:32

it . Um , and my father

17:35

was , everybody was a veteran . But you

17:37

know , for baby boomers , Every that

17:39

whole generation above us , there wasn't a

17:41

. You know , my mother used

17:43

to say to me well , you're , you know your father , uh

17:46

, he was really older than the draft but he

17:49

joined because someone in the

17:51

family had to represent us . And you

17:54

know , your uncle couldn't go because he was married

17:56

and he only had one eye , um

17:59

, and so

18:02

that was kind of whispered like . We won't

18:04

speak of that . But I want you to know what

18:06

the story is . Uncle

18:08

Jack didn't go , it's not because of

18:10

shame , it was because of

18:12

, but , um , I had no

18:14

appreciation of that . So I flaunted my

18:17

, you know , um , you know , anti

18:19

war , anti government . You know

18:21

, I had no appreciation , appreciation

18:24

of of LBJ and

18:26

all of the things that he did do for this country

18:29

in terms of , like , civil rights , and you

18:31

know all . All I could , all

18:33

I knew , was that the war escalated

18:36

. Um , I had no understanding

18:38

about what Nixon had done in regard to

18:40

the war and how he you know .

18:42

Paul's in that . Yeah , it's still good to be that

18:44

active , even ignorant , I guess , because

18:46

there's a voice being and and

18:49

change comes this way . Change , if

18:51

I could look back in hindsight of what I read

18:53

about the sixties in

18:56

comparison to how I grew up

18:58

and what you're saying , this

19:00

disconnection of ideas

19:02

, what the stakes were , um

19:05

, how visible corruption was

19:07

, and and this unjust war of Vietnam

19:09

versus this noble experience

19:12

of having to fight in Europe

19:14

at the stake of the entire planet . It's

19:17

succumbing to fascist ideas . Um

19:20

, it's still . There's

19:23

still something to be said about

19:25

P 18 to 24 . 25

19:27

year olds , still

19:29

voicing something that still changes

19:31

, something that even the

19:33

world war two or the boomers just

19:35

took for granted , a structure that

19:38

was like you can't change that part of it , and

19:41

it takes this blind air against . Sometimes

19:43

maybe there is a benefit to to that

19:45

kind of bravado .

19:46

Well , of course there is I think it's the

19:48

yin and the yang of every generation right

19:51

To push back against what

19:53

is and that

19:55

changes , you know . Look

19:57

at what we're going through right now .

19:59

That's a mirror .

20:01

And I think the hope that I have

20:03

one of the hopes that I have is that

20:05

um , people

20:07

, young people , um , are

20:10

going to rise up and they

20:12

are strong in number and

20:15

if they educate

20:17

themselves and are aware of what's

20:19

happening in the world , they will

20:21

come forward with their thoughts and their ideas

20:24

, even when they're in conflict with

20:26

each other , with each other , um

20:28

, they can come

20:30

to some kind of resolve about what

20:33

our core values are

20:35

. And so that brings

20:37

me back to so Elaine Donnelly

20:39

and you know 1986

22:32

decides to get sober . And

22:35

the question is what came first , the chicken or

22:37

the egg ? So if I wasn't that

22:39

person that was so adamant

22:41

about life and living it to its fullest

22:44

and having it the right way

22:46

and being a part of that , um

22:48

, you know how

22:51

did that affect my decision to get sober

22:53

? What did I ultimately decide

22:56

? I'm not giving up on life because

22:58

that's not who I am

23:00

. I mean not that I verbalize

23:02

that to myself , but , um

23:04

, you do , when you talk to people , you can kind

23:06

of find out what's yeah , I

23:09

just I didn't stop breathing , I didn't

23:11

, you know I , I could

23:13

have driven off the road by

23:15

, but you know I , I think

23:17

every generation has the

23:19

possibility to um rejuvenate

23:23

our planet .

23:25

When you said that , I remember hearing stories

23:27

that what came to mind first

23:29

and foremost was the visuals of Vietnam

23:31

and what they could have looked like for Scranton

23:33

, and I've seen pictures , uh , from

23:36

the , the paper , the

23:38

times , and then talking to friends

23:40

that are older , that , if

23:43

I'm not mistaken , hundreds

23:45

of coffins within that period

23:47

, uh , hundreds of funerals of

23:49

young guys from Scranton . Well

23:52

, and I don't . Well , here's the thing .

23:54

I'm not , no , because I'm not from Scranton

23:56

. Oh no , no , I was . I was

23:58

born in the Bronx , so I'm Yankees

24:00

fan .

24:01

That's right .

24:03

And last year I had , you know Well , the

24:05

Bronx . You were in the Bronx . I know , and

24:07

then I . so my story

24:10

is that I was then at

24:12

the at at at

24:14

13 months old , I was here in there

24:16

, and I literally

24:18

mean I was here in there for

24:20

the first 13 months of my life and then

24:22

, because I was given up for adoption on day

24:24

one . So , foster

24:27

homes , another home , I don't know , I don't know

24:29

, it's all closed in . Anyway

24:32

, I ended up in Newburgh , new York

24:34

, which is right on 84 . Yeah , that's beautiful

24:36

, oh , it's there's . You know

24:38

, a part of my heart will always be in

24:40

the Hudson Valley . Yeah , it's

24:43

, it's , it's . You know , there's so many things

24:45

I could tell you to go visit .

24:46

It's magical .

24:47

Yeah , we'll talk later . I'll

24:49

tell , I'll give you a whole playlist of your places to go , but anyway

24:52

, you know . So that

24:54

helped mold me on . 60 miles outside

24:56

of New York . I'm getting New York city

24:58

news but we there wasn't any local news

25:01

, so we had a larger

25:04

world vision , I think .

25:06

Yeah , I think so .

25:06

Yeah .

25:07

It's an artist town too . I mean , there's .

25:09

Yes .

25:10

Yeah .

25:11

And we and racial issues . We

25:14

were part of the Great Migration and

25:16

you know a very

25:18

strong John

25:20

Birch society which was very conservative

25:22

. So there were riots in my high school

25:25

. Wow and

25:27

the oh . The first one was my junior year

25:29

at about , but I this is civil during civil

25:32

rights . Yes , we had

25:34

civil rights , women's rights , gay rights

25:36

. You know , I had friends that were gay

25:38

, that were in the club and then , and

25:40

then I got to watch them suffer

25:43

with HIV and die , you know . So

25:45

the baby boomers went through , you

25:47

know , just a wave

25:49

, you know , like in , you

25:52

know it was more like a the sea during a

25:54

storm . One wave after

25:56

another , after another , yeah , but

25:59

, but being enmeshed in caring

26:01

about the world and caring about those issues

26:03

, it was the groundwork to everything

26:06

else . So I , I cared

26:08

just as much about being a mother , yeah

26:10

, and I cared just as much about

26:12

becoming sober , which I think ultimately

26:15

helped me . You know , I

26:17

chose my path , but , yeah

26:20

, it was an interesting time to grow

26:22

up . And so one

26:26

little funny story was did

26:28

I go to Woodstock ? No

26:30

, but everybody , well , yes and no

26:32

, everybody that was going to Woodstock

26:34

, right , had to come . If they were coming

26:36

from the South , or they were coming from

26:40

the West , or they were coming , they , everybody had to

26:42

converge in Newberg , and

26:44

so there were half a million , well

26:46

, except from the North , when , if they were coming down

26:48

from the North . So , yeah

26:50

, a half a million kids of the throughway was

26:52

, which you know was runs right through

26:54

Newberg . Yeah , that was shut and

26:58

so we were taking back roads

27:00

, we being my girlfriend and I and her

27:02

family . She had

27:04

her family . I was blessed enough

27:06

to spend so much time with their family and

27:09

that was another saving grace . Yeah

27:11

, the universe put a lot of people

27:13

in my life , but anyway , we were on our way to the

27:15

Catskills where they had some land

27:18

and a cabin and , you know , no running

27:20

water and no , it was it

27:22

was . We called it camp . So

27:25

we were on our way to camp and we're

27:27

thinking ourselves what are all these people

27:30

along the side of the road ? We were at Yarsgarh's

27:32

farm , the

27:35

. The farm had been closed off , so

27:37

everybody was parked along the street . So

27:39

there we were and my friend Barbara and

27:41

I were like we should be , we should

27:43

get out of the car .

27:45

Yeah .

27:45

We were just shy , a year or two

27:48

, of being recalcitrant enough

27:50

to go on our own and let the chips

27:52

fall . Well , she was . She

27:54

was a better person than me . She wouldn't have gone into

27:57

fighters but I would have been up there . But

27:59

yeah , I was at Yarsgarh's

28:01

farm during Woodstock and

28:04

but never , you

28:07

know , really went in .

28:08

That's phenomenal . I just

28:10

heard a story . It went up in the stock . You wouldn't

28:12

believe it . Leo Vernetti I've

28:14

known him my whole life .

28:16

Remember we were , we were there , we were told

28:18

me was at Woodstock .

28:19

I said how did I miss this ? He

28:21

said he got stuck on a mound . He's wearing

28:23

a jacket plaid jacket slacks

28:26

. He showed up as a square , took

28:28

20 minutes to get off a mountain which

28:31

he goes back 40 years later . It was

28:33

a mound . I said someone gave

28:35

him mescaline and it took him 30 minutes to walk

28:37

off this mound . He was screaming for

28:39

help .

28:40

Yeah , yeah , yeah

28:43

.

28:43

So this is my favorite

28:45

period of American history because

28:48

so much is packed in of

28:50

where we're at now and

28:54

that's both sides of our political

28:56

spectrum . How it was formed

28:58

from just what you were describing

29:01

LBJ sacrificing

29:04

pretty much the Democratic Party in

29:06

the South permanently for the next

29:09

40 years and it became Republican because

29:12

of civil rights , and he knew

29:14

this . It wasn't like an unintended consequence

29:17

.

29:18

And a president from the South .

29:20

Yeah .

29:21

You know , he was a Texan and

29:23

he knew what was coming .

29:25

And you know as many

29:27

things as you could point to him and say they're

29:30

very ugly . He

29:32

was a master politician and

29:34

it might have took that guy's

29:37

personality to finish the civil

29:39

rights moment .

29:40

Well , and I you know it's funny

29:42

, who's to know ? Because John

29:45

Kennedy and Robert Kennedy as

29:48

his attorney general , really laid the

29:50

groundwork , I mean , they

29:52

built the framework .

29:53

Yeah .

29:54

And then LBJ put the sides up on

29:57

it . But you

29:59

know my generation also got

30:01

to see . You know John

30:03

murdered and Robert

30:05

murdered and Martin .

30:07

Luther King murdered . Malcolm X murdered .

30:09

Malcolm X .

30:10

John Lennon .

30:13

John Lennon was 1980 , but it was

30:15

, they were , and it was a cumulative

30:18

effect . Because I remember getting

30:20

up in the morning . Well

30:22

, I mean , I remember everything about JFK

30:25

, like everybody does . You know . I

30:27

remember the intersection I was at with

30:30

my mother and grandmother who was sick at the

30:32

time and hearing that JFK

30:35

had passed , and you

30:37

know so I remember all that . But by the time

30:40

and then Martin , and then

30:42

by the time Robert

30:44

Kennedy was assassinated

30:47

, I got up in the morning and my

30:49

mother said to me I

30:52

just heard on the radio that Robert

30:55

Kennedy was murdered

30:57

. And I looked at her and

30:59

I turned . I remember doing this , I

31:04

couldn't verbalize anything . I

31:08

looked at her and then I turned around , I

31:10

went in brings tears

31:12

now and I just sobbed how

31:16

many heroes could

31:18

we have possibly lost ? You

31:21

know , like the whole world was coming

31:23

down . And yet it wasn't . Because here we

31:25

are , here we are .

31:29

We landed on this topic and I was . I'm

31:31

watching yesterday . You know political rhetoric

31:33

getting violent

31:35

and here

31:37

you are . You've lived through a generation . Every three

31:40

, four years , key leaders

31:43

of many movements were

31:45

assassinated and these are recorded

31:47

visually . How

31:52

do you convey to someone that's in

31:54

their 40s and below like this

31:57

language could kill ? And

32:00

we're not even seeing that . We're seeing just weird

32:02

pockets of violent

32:04

explosions in schools

32:06

and so but to see a leader

32:08

assassinated on television you

32:11

live through that . What

32:14

does your sense of stability and

32:16

hope feel like by the time you reach 1980

32:19

, with that culture being

32:21

what you're walking out of Like ? What does that fucking

32:23

feel like ?

32:23

Well , you know , I . So

32:27

there's enough baby boomers still left that

32:29

we keep telling the tale . And

32:32

I think repeating

32:34

what we

32:36

personally experienced is

32:39

cannot fall in deaf ears

32:41

in terms of , you know , hate

32:44

cannot outweigh love . You know

32:46

, I mean , it's so simple , right , so

32:48

silly . Actually , you know the Beatles , all you need is

32:50

love . And well , that's not all you need

32:52

, but it's certainly a good start , isn't

32:54

it ?

32:55

I take a health plan with that .

32:58

Seriously , yeah , but

33:01

I think it goes back to

33:03

what I said before , which is allowing

33:06

young people to see the history

33:08

, the , as you said before

33:11

, the linear history of

33:13

you know the

33:15

generations , and

33:18

then , looking at their own generation

33:20

, those two young men in

33:22

Tennessee

33:25

that were kicked

33:28

out of the you know legislature , and then one is

33:30

in and one is out . This is three

33:32

weeks ago .

33:33

Oh well , this was you know it started .

33:36

It started months ago and then they were taken

33:38

back in , reappointed

33:41

and then the other one was just kicked back out and

33:43

there was a woman that was also . But

33:46

my point is , when I listen

33:49

to those young men talk , it

33:51

makes me feel like we are going

33:53

to be okay , even if

33:55

you don't agree with them . That's great . They

33:58

are not talking about being

34:02

angry . They're not talking

34:04

about revenge . They're not

34:06

talking about you know what

34:11

they are . Let me talk about what they are talking about . What

34:13

they are talking about is

34:15

doing the right thing , providing

34:18

for everybody , raising people up , listening

34:20

to their ideas . You

34:22

don't have to agree with them , but

34:24

you have to engage , and

34:26

you know I mean . There's

34:30

nothing better than a good debate .

34:32

No , and the best argument can always

34:34

win yes , truth

34:36

, truth . Truth always has a better chance , higher

34:40

probabilities of winning in an argument , a

34:42

nonviolent inner . I always

34:44

see history myself

34:46

and I have to see it this way because

34:49

I'm sitting slanting towards less than I am

34:51

Less violence , more

34:53

isolated violence , and

34:57

that's just a trend , that and I

34:59

see more liberties , I see more autonomy

35:01

, just if you just took a metric

35:03

, in the last 400 years , like 500 years ago

35:05

, both of our families were under the rule

35:08

of whatever noble was

35:10

in charge of the property .

35:11

That is , that's right .

35:12

What the fuck Right ? Who's in

35:14

charge of like ? Listen my great .

35:16

well , okay , so now that I've said I was adopted

35:18

, I can talk about my two families

35:21

. Right , I talked about the one that raised me

35:23

, the one that I lived in

35:25

their culture and they supported

35:27

me , and what . But my ? You

35:30

know my DNA , you know I stand on the

35:32

shoulders of those people too , and

35:35

you know so . My grandmother , mary

35:39

McCabe , came here in 1916

35:42

and alone and

35:44

poor , and it did not end well for her . But

35:47

the point that I'm making is you know they

35:50

had struggles too , and you know they

35:52

were taking Hard

35:54

, hard struggles , hard struggles .

35:57

And a lower lifespan . Yes , they didn't get

35:59

the 20 extra years we have to get at something done

36:01

. No , I

36:04

don't think . I don't think it's easily accessible

36:06

to your brain when you're considering periods

36:09

of history . You're talking about half the

36:11

lifespan we have now . Oh yeah , Pre

36:13

1900 , half the lifespan .

36:18

Was the average lifespan .

36:19

Yeah , I

36:21

want to . Let's wrap up how you , your

36:24

recovery . You know , came to birth and

36:27

I think you painted a great

36:29

picture of culture . You can't

36:31

separate yourself from culture . You're

36:33

in it , Right . It's the software you download

36:36

to your head . It

36:38

becomes part of your behavior . And the culture you got

36:40

to experience in

36:43

the first 30 years of your life was unstable . Even

36:46

though it's in the United States

36:48

, the sense of security seemed to

36:51

always be jeopardized in the last three years , every three

36:53

years , with

36:56

either an assassination , a war , a

37:00

political upset , a changing of the guard , women's

37:04

rights going up , they come down . That brings

37:06

you to 1986 . And here's

37:08

a person that had hope 10 years earlier , was

37:11

part of something that was real , a thing

37:13

that would change , change

37:17

the structure of how people view

37:19

power . That seems to be gone right From

37:24

. How did your addiction end and when did you

37:26

start to have hope ?

37:31

So you

37:35

know , there is , I think , a mental health component

37:38

to addiction

37:40

which is , you know , at the

37:43

bedrock of who we are selfish

37:45

and self-centered , so-

37:48

.

37:49

Makes for a good economy .

37:53

It does . Yeah , we are very

37:55

good consumers of

37:58

a lot of things , but

38:00

you know . So here's

38:03

what I have to say about it . I

38:05

thought I was just a part of a social

38:07

order that was going to change the world , the

38:11

whole thing that I was missing , that I

38:14

found in recovery

38:16

, and

38:18

I don't think I was going to move forward

38:20

without the help of a number

38:22

of people , you know , having my back and

38:24

pushing me forward the recovering community

38:27

. Is that the

38:29

biggest journey , right , the biggest

38:31

responsibility , the

38:34

only way that we're all going to keep moving

38:36

forward , is for us to look inward

38:38

, and I hadn't done

38:40

that . I was just a part of a surge

38:43

, you know , I

38:45

was just a part of , like , I was a boomer

38:47

, I was , you know , we were , you

38:50

know sex , drugs and rock and roll . And

38:56

this is , I think you know , goes back to

38:58

the age thing where I

39:00

, you know , I got to the age

39:03

where I thought to myself I've

39:05

looked all around me and nothing's going

39:07

on here . This is getting worse , never

39:10

have an eye looked for an answer , and

39:14

in the rooms where

39:18

people with the same problems

39:21

sit , somebody

39:25

suggested that I look inward . Just

39:29

take account for what you

39:31

have done and how that looks

39:33

, and then the whole puzzle

39:36

piece came together .

39:38

Isn't that that's a hard venture . I

39:40

just want to put it under my microscope

39:43

to your demographic Spending

39:47

10 years saying this is the problem , this

39:49

is the violence that preceded us , this system

39:51

, a patriarch system

39:54

. And now you're here

39:56

. You are at the end of an addiction

39:58

and someone's saying , no , look

40:01

in , is it ? Is that difficult

40:03

when you're coming ? Did you

40:05

meet other hippies or people that

40:07

were a part of that 10 years ? It's hard to say , okay , where's

40:10

your blame ? Where do you go

40:12

in and get empowered

40:14

by looking at ?

40:16

Well , and I don't know whether I don't think

40:18

this is just my generation

40:20

, because research will show you

40:22

that most people begin

40:24

to resolve their issues in the thirties . You

40:28

have that makes you know , that's just right . That's just

40:30

the research . You know we spend

40:32

the teenage years being , you know , kind

40:34

of amoebas we're . You know

40:37

, in our twenties we're all over the

40:39

place . That you know .

40:40

My 10th class reunion was

40:42

just you know In a medical

40:44

book , you could be treated by a pediatrician

40:46

until you're 26 .

40:47

There you go . I know , and

40:49

some of the brain research is showing , you know you're not

40:51

. Your brain isn't done maturing until you're 30

40:54

. So it all makes sense right . So

40:56

now we're into our thirties , we've

40:58

made enough mistakes that we , you know we

41:00

can look around . You

41:03

know , if you're totally successful

41:05

, you get to sort out what was your success

41:08

and what did your family hand you , and

41:10

that in and of itself can be shocking . You

41:12

know , oh , yeah , okay , so

41:14

I don't have this car because I earned

41:17

it .

41:18

You know my dad , you know you didn't build

41:20

it either , exactly .

41:22

So you know I , we , we , we begin to reconcile

41:24

all of that . But you know , I , I think

41:26

there were , of course , a number of

41:28

of people my age that were

41:31

getting sober at the same time

41:33

, and we and so I

41:35

remember Joe the thought

41:37

about well , these are the people that I

41:39

like hanging around with anyway .

41:41

Yeah .

41:42

And so that helped . I mean , that was

41:44

, you know . There were the serious

41:47

soul searching , you know kind

41:49

of unquenchable

41:52

thirst for deep

41:54

, deep questions that I was . And

41:56

then there was the frivolous thought about like these

41:58

, these silly people

42:01

are the ones that I always gravitated

42:03

to , and so they're

42:05

what . There they were , the seekers . Yeah

42:08

, Well , the seekers , but you know the

42:10

people that couldn't climb down off the molehill

42:12

because , they thought it was a mountain . You

42:15

know , I mean all those people here

42:17

they are , they were still trying

42:19

to climb down off the molehill , thinking

42:21

it's a mountain , and

42:23

we got to do it together .

42:25

So , and I don't think that's different

42:27

than any other generation of people

42:29

coming , you know , and so you

42:32

remind me of an old cliche I liked in early

42:34

A when I first came around from that molehill was

42:37

hey kid , don't pole vault over rabbit

42:39

shit .

42:42

I never heard that , but I like it .

42:47

So sobriety is produced in this mixture

42:49

of you know , friendly faces

42:52

, people you could connect with , some

42:55

step work and just

42:57

engaging the community in the 80s , when

43:00

did things form a

43:04

career or what you wanted to do

43:06

to find meaning

43:08

and work ? How did that evolve ?

43:12

So my

43:15

career was dedicated to children

43:17

. That's how it

43:19

began . I

43:24

always had the feeling that if

43:27

children were nurtured and loved

43:29

and respected , they would be okay . And

43:32

so that's how I started

43:34

with after school programs and

43:36

just

43:39

loving these kids and getting them what they

43:41

needed to the best of my

43:44

ability . And I worked

43:46

for uh , at the time it was EOTC

43:48

, now it's outreach and it is a loving

43:51

kind .

43:53

You know , wonderful you know , you

43:55

know I'm on the board . Oh

43:57

, you're on the board . Well , first board member

43:59

, they got a board . Welcome aboard .

44:03

I forgot to tell you . Well , and last night

44:05

was their mighty oak dinner . And

44:08

one of the children from my

44:10

earliest days with them , uh

44:13

, who is now except ? Has accepted

44:15

a position as an anchor woman ? Um

44:18

, yeah , I know , uh , not locally

44:20

. She's going to be out in the Western like

44:23

state college and beyond . But

44:25

you know , went through prep , went through college

44:27

, got a master's degree , like has a , lived

44:29

here , did this and she's beautiful

44:32

and fabulous and smart and uh

44:34

, what does that feel like when ?

44:35

you see that .

44:36

Well , I , I mean , I loved her then and

44:39

, um , you know , I and I love , and I love her . Now

44:41

. This is , this is the you know the

44:43

the first day I met , um , this

44:45

young woman Chantel is her name , chantel

44:48

Calhoun I , I , I . She

44:51

deserves to have her name out there , cause she's a

44:53

star and there's many stars , um

44:56

, and that's the point , right ? So , uh

44:58

, the first day I met her she's you

45:00

know she said I have to do a book

45:02

report . Well , um

45:04

, what's the book report on Rosa

45:07

Parks ? I said , okay , well , tell me what the book said

45:09

. Well , I didn't read the book . I said

45:11

, well , okay , you didn't read the book

45:13

, so you have to read the book . We can't write

45:15

the report without . I'll help you write the report

45:18

. You have to read the book . When

45:20

? When is the report to ? Tomorrow ? So

45:24

that was the first day I met

45:26

her . And um , she

45:28

has just flown

45:30

over the clouds ever since

45:33

. You know , once , once she got started

45:35

, she just never stopped . I mean

45:37

, she's had adversity in her life , well

45:39

, like we all have , and um

45:42

has risen above at all . So

45:44

, anyway , that was my beginning . Now I'm

45:46

going to get to the root of your question , which is

45:48

um , you know . So tell me about

45:50

your recovery and , um

45:52

, and the work that you

45:54

did . So you know , the grants ran

45:57

out and they my job was

45:59

changing , and they called me into

46:01

the office and said what

46:04

do you think about doing some work with

46:06

the treatment

46:08

court , with the drug court , it

46:10

was called at the time . Um , I

46:13

said well , and I knew what

46:15

that meant we don't have any money to pay

46:17

you unless you do this . So we're giving you

46:19

the courtesy of asking , but it really doesn't

46:21

matter what you . So I said

46:23

, well , I don't want to do that . And now

46:25

you have to hear this joke because you're going to love

46:27

this part of my story . I already do . Um

46:30

, I . I said I don't want

46:32

to do it . I said , well , can

46:35

can we ask you why ? And

46:37

I said I don't like those women . Those

46:43

women hurt their children . I

46:45

love their children

46:48

. Who they are hurting ? I

46:50

have no interest in reaching my hand

46:52

out to them . I don't

46:54

like them and I don't wanna spend time

46:56

with them , and you know my work

46:58

well enough to know that , if not

47:01

you , I was this . This is directed

47:03

to my supervisor . You know my

47:05

work well enough to know that if I

47:07

have to do this work and I believe I

47:09

will then I will do the best

47:11

that I can for those women , but I don't

47:13

wanna do it . Well

47:16

, go ahead and think about it , elaine , and

47:18

we'll talk about it . So

47:21

you know , joe . You

47:24

know the next thing ? I know I'm sitting

47:26

in the treatment court and two

47:30

weeks later I'm sitting in my

47:32

office listening to some woman tell me

47:34

probably some egregious thing that

47:37

happened to her , some profound

47:39

experience

47:41

that she had in her life . And

47:44

I looked at her and I thought

47:46

and I can't give you the background

47:48

of this , I can only tell you what was happening

47:50

there was a woman talking to

47:52

me and I'm looking at her and

47:55

my thought was this you're

47:57

one of the kids . Where

48:01

did I think the children were

48:03

going to go ? Where

48:06

did I think they were going ? Here's where

48:08

they're going to my office . I've

48:12

just jumped the line a little bit

48:14

and I'm catching them

48:16

, you know , and hugging

48:18

them as adults .

48:19

Once they weren't defended .

48:22

That was it , and I thought this

48:24

is where I was supposed to be . All of that

48:26

was practice .

48:28

It's full circle to how

48:31

you came to understand your mom , your

48:33

grandmother , these women You're

48:37

so easily and desperately wanna

48:39

judge and know you're different and

48:42

you can't . I'm not saying , but

48:44

you look at it . What causes that

48:46

kind of person to harm

48:48

what would seem innocent as a person ? That

48:52

?

48:52

their childhood was stolen . They're sick themselves

48:54

. It's a you know that whole multi-generational

48:57

thing , but it's true . But let me say

48:59

this too who was it

49:01

that the universe was looking out for in that situation

49:04

? The woman who stood in the office

49:06

and said I don't like them , those

49:10

women , blah , blah , blah . They

49:13

did this . You

49:15

know , I'm one

49:18

of them . I had completely

49:20

separated myself from the herd . I had forgotten

49:22

who I was . I had forgotten

49:24

somebody picked me up .

49:26

How long were you sober when that moment of

49:28

your life , of realization happened ?

49:32

So I probably have been with the well

49:34

, I

49:37

think the judge and I decided I'd been doing

49:39

working with the court for about 20

49:41

years . So 20 years

49:43

, yeah , so it was probably more

49:45

than that now , but what

49:47

?

49:47

you're saying to me is exciting , because life

49:50

could get cynical

49:52

again , even in sobriety . You don't have to relapse

49:54

If we have little revelations

49:57

that are that simple . That I am you .

49:59

Yes , I am you Well here's the thing we

50:02

say all these little quippy things about

50:04

. You know , oh , we don't have to have

50:06

a drink to have a relapse , we don't have to have a

50:08

drug to have a relapse , and

50:10

yet we miss in each other all

50:12

the time the things

50:14

that are really happening . I

50:16

didn't know , I did not use again

50:19

, I never had a drink or a drug , I

50:21

never , you know . But here's the thing , Joe

50:24

, I was lost , I

50:26

was lost and I was getting more lost

50:28

.

50:29

I never knew .

50:30

Well , I didn't either . Which is more

50:32

for no , you didn't know that I was a relapsing . No

50:35

, that much .

50:36

I think , well , I can't . You were a little

50:38

goofy .

50:39

You know , I mean it's a technical term , but I

50:41

think you get the gist of it .

50:43

Yeah .

50:44

There's Joe . He's goofy . I

50:46

did a lot of praying for you , Joe . Thank you , I

50:48

did Thank you .

50:50

I needed it . I felt

50:52

really alone and it was a

50:54

lot of it could be looked back to as

50:56

manufactured . But

50:58

right before things started to get really just

51:01

dark in my head , it

51:04

was right after I spent time with you . Not

51:06

that you're the cause of it . I

51:08

have broad shoulders though , but

51:11

I think all the people interesting

51:14

, kind , loving people that

51:16

have the insight that you do , that

51:20

I was able to be around in my teenage

51:22

years . I don't think

51:24

I would have the resiliency even when things got dark again

51:26

, sober or drunk

51:28

, like I

51:30

can't fall into a total pit , because

51:32

you guys live in my head

51:34

as characters . You evolve

51:37

, people stay with you . You're one of those

51:39

people that I know is out there fighting

51:42

a noble fight , cares about morals , cares

51:44

about who you are , and

51:46

even when we get lost , you could wake back up

51:48

.

51:50

Well , and you know , we think we know what's going on

51:52

in the world , but you don't

51:54

have any idea how many times on a Saturday

51:56

night somebody would say hey , has

51:59

anybody seen Jovan we recently

52:01

? How's he doing ? Does anybody know how he's

52:03

doing ? Oh well , he this , that

52:05

the other thing . So along

52:07

the time that I haven't seen you , I've heard

52:09

all about you . Like , what I'm saying

52:12

to you is you are thrown into

52:14

a pool of people who , as

52:17

loose as it may be , at

52:19

the fringe right of your life , are

52:21

still people who are holding that

52:24

, that together and

52:26

yeah , and have your back , are

52:29

there . You know , people are . We

52:31

cheer each other on and it's

52:33

not always face to face , Jo , but

52:35

it is constant and

52:38

never ending . When you hear about somebody

52:40

that's floundering or

52:42

faltering or has fallen to

52:46

any extent , the only

52:48

response anybody I've ever heard I

52:50

mean I'm there was

52:52

probably a few people that you know that's

52:54

not true but overwhelmingly

52:56

the response is love . Yeah

52:59

, and that brings us back

53:01

to full circle .

53:03

Makes one feel silly sometimes when I my

53:05

mind is straight and I thought

53:07

this source of gratitude . The

53:09

last two years I've heard stories of

53:12

really high acuity

53:15

, of serious trauma , people

53:17

who did not even have the circumstance

53:19

even what my problems

53:21

are yours . I've heard people that didn't even

53:24

have the probability of a

53:26

chance or the people of support they could find

53:28

just in their community , and

53:30

to me it's not like shame on me

53:33

forever , it's more of holy God

53:35

. Let this always be a source of gratitude

53:37

. Some people don't even are

53:41

12 step communities beyond probabilities

53:43

or good results

53:45

because of the people that are in our community

53:47

here . That's not everywhere .

53:49

This grant's not everywhere . You

53:52

know , I just listened , speaking of podcasts

53:54

, to a podcast with

53:56

Norman Lear and who

53:59

is 93 years old or was

54:01

at the time , I think it's a recent podcast

54:03

. Anyway , there's

54:07

many things I could say about that podcast in

54:09

Norman Lear , but what I will

54:11

say is it was

54:13

over Winfrey , that was the interviewer

54:16

, and she said to him you

54:19

know he had established I'm

54:21

a Jew but I've never been religious . You

54:24

know , we've never had an organized thing . So

54:26

she said to him how would you define

54:29

a spiritual

54:31

experience with God

54:34

? And he said one

54:37

word gratitude . Yeah

54:39

, it's almost like

54:41

my husband , you know

54:43

, with his one word saying connectedness

54:46

. You know , I don't know

54:48

that you can have gratitude

54:50

for life

54:53

and for people and for who

54:55

you are and what you have and

54:57

the solutions that are

54:59

available that you don't see yet

55:01

, and not connect

55:04

with the higher power , even if it's all

55:06

of the people that are contributing to

55:08

your life .

55:09

No , no , it's

55:11

. That's the gift that lingers

55:13

from desperation . Is that

55:15

it's my source of gratitude ? I

55:18

was just telling one of the guys here you

55:21

know . You said having struggled with a job and

55:24

just only three months ago he

55:26

didn't have a job and wasn't going to get hired by anyone because

55:29

of his background . I

55:31

said dig deep , don't let go of that day . Like

55:34

I go to a hospital bed

55:36

all the time , like when

55:39

some trivial thing is about to ruin my day . I'm

55:42

telling myself a story of why things are going on and why things are going

55:44

to be awful all day . I go back

55:46

to thinking man , I wanted to just

55:48

die outside . If I was going to die , can I

55:50

just die on the sidewalk ? I want to breathe

55:52

air . That's

55:55

an endless source of gratitude because that

55:57

time has passed the pain of its past

55:59

, but I could visualize

56:03

it in such detail that the gratitude

56:05

that comes from that is real and

56:08

it's always accessible . Any

56:10

multitude of symptoms .

56:13

The only reason it's not accessible is

56:15

because we won't let it come through

56:17

.

56:18

Yeah , no , and you have to manufacture

56:20

your problems then . So the problem happened

56:22

where your perceived one will happen . You

56:25

have to keep telling yourself how

56:27

that problem is going to happen . That's

56:30

not a rubber band or a

56:32

muscle reflex . That's

56:34

you hypnotizing

56:36

yourself . That's me hypnotizing . My

56:40

practice is step 11 , let's me kind of break

56:42

that . It's a practice every morning . I'm

56:44

not going to a waterfall , my meditations

56:46

or anything like that . I don't relate to those meditations

56:49

, I'm just watching . Holy

56:51

shit , why am I thinking about this ? There

56:53

I go planning again . Now I'm telling

56:55

a story . I haven't seen this person in 10

56:57

years . I'm finishing a conversation with them

56:59

while I'm getting in my car to go

57:01

to work . This is fucking psychosis

57:04

. Yeah , yeah , this

57:06

is that's where I think addiction

57:09

can really go rampant on someone

57:11

If you don't see . That's where it is

57:13

, that's where it lives . It's this , it's

57:15

this dialogue I have .

57:16

It's internal . Yeah that's the thing , right

57:19

, that we were talking about before , which is the

57:21

you know the final frontier . To go

57:24

back to Star Wars , you know not

57:27

Star Wars , star Trek , I'll

57:29

talk Star Wars , yeah , yeah

57:31

, well , I love Star Wars , but anyway

57:33

, you know , the final frontier

57:35

is is just that it's going

57:38

, it's going inward .

57:39

Yeah , the cosmos is in there . Yeah

57:41

, al Watzo , he said that he goes . You got

57:43

a magnificent telescope

57:45

. You see another galaxy , a drama

57:48

. He goes . Oh , you're seeing what's

57:50

in your head . You

57:52

can go anywhere , man , the

57:55

cosmos is in there , that's right , yeah

57:57

, yeah , I think a lot of interesting

57:59

things at science right now are thinking there's

58:03

a more complex relationship between a

58:05

conscious mind , a human brain , like

58:07

in my brain , and my

58:10

relationship to the world . And

58:12

there's something that's just not

58:14

sensible about it that

58:17

you're rendering parts of reality Like

58:19

like the fact that you just don't see your nose

58:21

all day , like this

58:23

is a revision of reality , like

58:25

so you're , you're editing

58:28

, I caught . You're not taking in raw

58:30

, objective truth ever . So how

58:32

do we even access what's true

58:34

or in reality ? I always

58:36

relate that to addiction

58:38

. I know the , the addicts I and

58:40

alcoholics I relate

58:43

to know a fraud's being committed and

58:45

in the fraud , in the sense that you

58:48

described , god is somehow

58:50

this paradox . I need his help , but

58:52

he's hurting me . There's

58:54

something not clear , but I can

58:56

understand things without articulating

58:59

them when I've let what you

59:01

said connectivity happen . I

59:03

can't always describe why I'm changing or

59:06

why my beliefs are changing , but

59:09

I know something's changed to me , right

59:12

Like I'm open to stuff .

59:13

Well , and you know , one of the questions

59:16

that that I've had to grapple with is

59:18

why do I value my brain more than

59:20

my heart ? Why do I

59:22

feel like I have to understand this

59:24

and explain this in words

59:27

, when this may be

59:29

far more complicated than

59:31

anything my brain can produce ? So

59:34

I need to sometimes fall

59:37

back on something that I can't

59:39

use words to explain

59:42

.

59:42

Yeah , yeah . The

59:44

instance that

59:47

it seems where the stakes are so

59:49

high for me and what you just explained , is when

59:51

I would have a head full of acid and

59:53

I would get this panic that someone's going to stop at the house

59:56

. Oh my God , I would just realize I started tripping

59:58

on a Tuesday morning and I didn't go to

1:00:00

work seeing if this would wake me up . And

1:00:02

I'm like , what if someone rings the bell ? I'm

1:00:04

so tripped out . I know I'm not crazy , I know

1:00:06

I'm tripping , but if I talk

1:00:08

to someone they might call Look

1:00:12

to have some psychiatric intervention on me . How

1:00:15

am I going to defend myself ? Because

1:00:17

I don't think at this point I could prove that I'm not crazy , even

1:00:20

though internally I knew I wasn't . I knew

1:00:23

I wasn't . That's when I could

1:00:25

feel it . It's like this really emotional

1:00:27

roller coaster that communication

1:00:30

is so subtle for , for sanity

1:00:32

and norms and to share a

1:00:35

sense of community . I think that's the

1:00:37

warmest part of a . I

1:00:39

found my freaks . I joined the circus

1:00:41

that I knew I belonged to .

1:00:43

Yeah , yeah , and I mean and I think

1:00:45

you know you were talking about

1:00:47

your two children , and so when you

1:00:49

sit down and talk to them , the

1:00:55

how profound a

1:00:58

child is is

1:01:00

also beyond words . You

1:01:04

know , what is it about

1:01:06

? A baby or a toddler or

1:01:08

, you know , a preschooler or

1:01:11

you know ? Or my 10-year-old granddaughter

1:01:13

? What is it about children

1:01:15

that makes them so

1:01:18

magnetic , that

1:01:20

makes them so above

1:01:24

and beyond everybody else ? They

1:01:26

will grab the attention of a crowd and

1:01:31

this has nothing to do with

1:01:33

their philosophy or

1:01:36

the truth of the universe . It has

1:01:38

everything to do with . We

1:01:40

have beauty in this

1:01:42

place and

1:01:44

it's right before our eyes and we

1:01:46

don't need to explain it .

1:01:49

And I think that's- and I'm looking

1:01:51

at my phone . No

1:01:54

, you're right . I mean , I get that

1:01:56

.

1:01:56

That's it . I watch it all the time . People

1:01:58

going down the street on their phone and they

1:02:00

have the most gorgeous human being walking

1:02:03

next to them that thinks like

1:02:05

your dog did , that thinks everything

1:02:08

of them .

1:02:09

No , I have to put safeguards

1:02:11

because I'll miss the plot . Like the war

1:02:13

for my attention or anyone's attention

1:02:16

is the war now . Like

1:02:18

that is the new oil attention

1:02:21

, and

1:02:23

I can miss the plot . Like

1:02:26

the baby boomer dad who wanted to get ahead somewhere

1:02:28

, stayed , burned the midnight oil

1:02:30

to get the life for the kids . You

1:02:33

miss the plot . Yeah , I

1:02:35

mean , I'm not going to With

1:02:38

that kind of ideas in line

1:02:40

, how

1:02:43

would you summarize the most fulfilling parts

1:02:45

of your career and

1:02:47

ending a career ?

1:02:53

I think the most rewarding

1:02:55

, you said the most fulfilling .

1:02:59

You had Chantel . I guess that would be some of

1:03:01

it , right , you know so

1:03:03

it just happened last night , yes

1:03:05

, and

1:03:11

realizing that they're not two

1:03:13

separate things .

1:03:14

People like to talk about their career and then their life

1:03:16

, just

1:03:19

like people like to talk about their career and

1:03:21

their personal life and their family

1:03:23

life . You

1:03:26

can't separate these things , no

1:03:28

they're just arbitrary . And then they try to put

1:03:30

friends over here and you know material

1:03:33

things over here . Like we like

1:03:35

to segment things . When

1:03:37

you're making a cake , things

1:03:39

are only segmented until they go into

1:03:41

the bowl and then that's

1:03:44

what makes it's the mixture of everything

1:03:46

that makes the cake . So what

1:03:48

I'm figuring out now at this

1:03:51

age well

1:03:53

, I guess building on what

1:03:55

I already knew is a better way of saying it is

1:03:57

that it's never been separated

1:04:00

. It's always been a

1:04:03

juggle about where does my

1:04:05

attention belong right now

1:04:07

, not where does

1:04:09

my attention need to be , or doesn't

1:04:12

what part don't shouldn't

1:04:14

I be paying attention to ? What's the

1:04:16

professional separate ? You

1:04:18

know separation that I have to put

1:04:20

here . What you know it's always

1:04:23

been . How do I mix this

1:04:25

all together to create

1:04:27

a meaningful life that I'm proud

1:04:29

of ? Like what will my legacy

1:04:31

be ?

1:04:33

You said , it is always my goal

1:04:35

and I always fall short of it . How

1:04:37

do you an anxious

1:04:40

guy , I get repetitive in my head

1:04:42

for plans if I start to really overbook

1:04:44

things and

1:04:47

it starts to be really hard to

1:04:49

be present , because now I want to solve the problem

1:04:51

that I just walked away from . Now I have to go do

1:04:53

something else being

1:04:56

present . What are some tips and tricks that

1:04:58

you use that just

1:05:00

you walk into a room , whatever

1:05:03

you came or left from , say the work to

1:05:05

family , and it's lingering on

1:05:08

you . How would you center yourself

1:05:10

and say , no , I'm going to be in this room ?

1:05:14

So , first of all , allow me to say that

1:05:16

I don't do life

1:05:19

perfectly , and so sometimes

1:05:21

I drag that garbage

1:05:23

right through the door with me , you

1:05:26

know ? So there's that and then

1:05:28

that's- . So that's the beginning , right ? That's

1:05:30

the beginning of saying you know

1:05:32

? Geez well , okay , I did that

1:05:34

. I'm not here Like

1:05:37

the acknowledgement of the situation

1:05:39

. the openness about- yeah , it's

1:05:42

not like somebody's got the market

1:05:44

on this . Somebody's going to write a book , and

1:05:46

geez , I wish it was me . I wish

1:05:48

I had put it to paper first

1:05:51

, like there's always

1:05:53

going to be a compilation

1:05:55

of things that happen . And you

1:05:58

said it before when you said I

1:06:00

can't go to a waterfall . That

1:06:02

doesn't work for me . All those images I

1:06:05

have to be thinking about , oh gee

1:06:07

, why am I thinking about that person and

1:06:09

who is it ? When yesterday happened , oh

1:06:11

, so now I'm thinking about yesterday was

1:06:13

and I believe

1:06:16

that that's

1:06:18

everybody's valid . And to say

1:06:20

that to yourself is to say you

1:06:22

know , joe , you started off that question by saying

1:06:25

you know I don't really

1:06:27

ever achieve this or that's

1:06:29

not the word you but you first

1:06:31

you disqualified yourself from

1:06:34

knowing that you

1:06:36

are fully participatory , but

1:06:38

not every second . So

1:06:41

you say you go home to your wife and you know

1:06:43

, and I know my husband , he

1:06:46

tunes me out , I tune him out , and

1:06:50

then I get mad at him , like I never do

1:06:52

it . You know what I mean . Are

1:06:55

you listening to me , jim ? Do

1:06:57

you hear what- . You know what I mean . Like

1:06:59

I do the same thing . It's

1:07:02

that compassion that we have to have for

1:07:04

each other . It's the you know , it's

1:07:07

forgiving yourself , it's just acknowledging

1:07:10

. This is just a human thing

1:07:12

we're doing here . Can

1:07:14

we do the best we can ?

1:07:16

And start over . And start- just keep starting

1:07:18

over .

1:07:19

That's exactly what I was going to say next yes

1:07:21

that's exactly what I was going to say .

1:07:23

Yeah . Yeah , it's a lot of starting over . I

1:07:25

want to be always non-resistant

1:07:28

to starting over , because when I I

1:07:30

want to keep finishing a story in my head , I get

1:07:32

sick , I get sick . I'll finish

1:07:34

in like an argument or a

1:07:37

challenge for my wife going

1:07:39

to work . Oh , why didn't I think it

1:07:41

I'm like start over , just let

1:07:43

go . Let go Listen and let

1:07:45

go yeah .

1:07:47

Sometimes it's just a matter of going and I hate

1:07:49

this , I hate this . It

1:07:51

really is sometimes a matter of me going

1:07:53

back and saying , you know what ? I was just a real jerk

1:07:56

. Yeah , I hate that . Yeah

1:07:58

, me too . I don't do that part well in

1:08:00

my life . I would much rather be

1:08:02

giving advice .

1:08:03

I would much rather start over right at the moment

1:08:06

to call my sponsor and

1:08:08

tell him something , that

1:08:11

there's a men's involved or

1:08:13

. I don't like writing resentments

1:08:15

, I will . I still

1:08:17

like that practice . It

1:08:20

makes sense to me . It commits me

1:08:22

to another person that I'm not embarrassed

1:08:24

of what like my life's , what

1:08:26

exposed to what we're

1:08:28

a community . I was like I want someone

1:08:30

to know , I want to change something

1:08:33

about myself , like a reflex I have . So

1:08:35

is there anything I should have asked you that I

1:08:38

didn't get to ?

1:08:39

I don't think so . I think we

1:08:41

can look at this as an ongoing conversation

1:08:45

. So whether it's five years

1:08:47

from now or- .

1:08:49

You're coming back . Yeah yeah , we

1:08:51

talked about the sixties again .

1:08:53

You're real specific the

1:08:55

sixties and the seventies yeah .

1:08:59

My favorite quote was remember Bruce , and

1:09:01

I just saw him dumpster Bruce

1:09:03

. I haven't seen him in a while . Flamin'

1:09:06

hippie now he's kind of very conservative

1:09:09

. But he said his favorite quote from the seventies

1:09:11

why change dicks in the middle of a screw

1:09:13

? Vote for Nixon in 72 . There

1:09:18

you have it . That's the first guy , matt and I . That's

1:09:20

what he was telling me . He had

1:09:22

all the hippie regalia .

1:09:24

And so I voted for McGovern . And

1:09:27

what did he take one state .

1:09:29

Yeah .

1:09:29

Now , there you have it .

1:09:30

Yeah , well

1:09:33

, till next time .

1:09:35

Thank you so much , joe . Thanks for coming . This has really

1:09:37

really been fun it's fun right . So

1:09:39

when I asked , when my granddaughter asked me again if

1:09:41

you have had celebrities on

1:09:43

, I'm going to say yes , yes , yes

1:09:47

, as a matter of fact , a spectacular one

1:09:49

Wonderful woman from Newark .

1:09:51

Wait and hear her story .

1:09:54

Thanks , joe .

1:09:59

I'd like to thank you for listening to another

1:10:01

episode of All Better

1:10:04

to find us on allbetterfm

1:10:07

, or listen

1:10:09

to us on Apple Podcasts , spotify

1:10:12

, google Podcast Stitcher , iheartradio

1:10:14

and Alexa . Well

1:10:18

, thanks to our producer , john Edwards

1:10:20

. An engineering company , 5.7.0

1:10:23

Drone . Please

1:10:25

like or subscribe to us on YouTube , facebook

1:10:28

, instagram or Twitter and

1:10:30

, if you're not , on social media you're

1:10:33

awesome . Looking

1:10:36

forward to seeing you again . And remember

1:10:38

, just because you're sober doesn't

1:10:41

mean you're right .