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lower. That's shopify.com/ Tech. Hello

1:15

everyone and welcome to our report. Here's what's

1:17

coming up. I

1:23

would also like to be able to use some of

1:25

my cash to get elected. The Trump conundrum. I

1:27

speak to Anthony Scaramucci, his

1:30

former defender and short-lived spokesman, about

1:32

the evolution of MAGA and how to

1:34

stand up for democracy. Then, I get

1:36

quite nervous and I get a bit

1:39

more sweary when I'm nervous. Wicked Little

1:41

Letters movie star Olivia Colman and director

1:43

Thea Sharrock on the power of language

1:45

and the real-life scandal that gripped a

1:48

nation. Thus, asking

1:50

about the facts of someone's life can often be

1:52

a dead end. Asking how

1:54

they feel about their life invites

1:56

them to say something meaningful and real.

2:00

author Charles Dooley talks to

2:02

Walter Isaacson about how to

2:04

have a great conversation. Welcome

2:26

to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour

2:28

in London. President Biden has given

2:30

an Oval Office address about the

2:33

Baltimore Bridge that was struck by

2:35

a cargo ship and collapsed. Search

2:37

and rescue is still going on and

2:40

some people remain unaccounted for. Here's what

2:42

Biden had to say. People

2:44

of Baltimore want to say, we're with

2:46

you. We're going to stay with you

2:48

as long as it takes. And like

2:50

the governor said, you're Maryland tough, you're Baltimore

2:52

strong, and we're going to get through this

2:55

together. And I promise we're not leaving. Indeed,

2:58

the president vowed that federal funds

3:00

would pay for the whole rebuild.

3:03

Getting that bridge and the port and

3:05

those dependent jobs back up and running

3:07

is crucial for President Biden. It goes

3:09

to the heart of the economy as

3:12

well. Meantime, his opponent in the

3:14

upcoming presidential race, the former president Donald

3:16

Trump spends much of his time in

3:18

court defending himself against a

3:21

series of criminal charges, fines,

3:23

and upcoming trials. Trump

3:25

made history, of course, when he

3:27

became the first U.S. president to

3:29

be impeached twice, and now he's

3:32

making history again, becoming the first

3:34

former president to be criminally

3:36

prosecuted. On April 15th, Trump

3:38

is set to face trial in Manhattan on

3:41

charges of paying hush money to

3:43

cover up an affair with Stephanie

3:45

Clifford, a.k.a. Stormy Daniels. Clue to

3:47

form, Trump says he's the victim

3:50

of persecution, using those lines to get

3:52

the mag of faithful to fork over

3:54

their cash for his campaign and his

3:56

defense. Trump faces three other

3:59

criminal indictments. including over attempts

4:01

to overturn the 2020 election. But

4:04

for now, only the Manhattan hush money case

4:07

looks set to go to trial before

4:09

November. Anthony Scaramucci was

4:11

once a dedicated Trump supporter and

4:13

spent a notorious 11 days as

4:16

the White House communications director. But

4:18

since 2019, he's opposed the

4:20

former president's reelection and he's now

4:23

joining us from Las Vegas. Anthony

4:26

Scaramucci, welcome to the program. You

4:28

know, we want to talk

4:30

to you because it's important for,

4:32

I think, everybody in the United

4:35

States and watching around the world to

4:37

try to understand how to

4:39

inform their own thinking about

4:41

a potential second

4:44

Trump presidency. And

4:46

since you were there for a good, good

4:48

long time, we thought we'd start by

4:50

asking you based on what he has

4:53

already done in office. But first, I

4:55

want to start with the trials. As

4:57

we mentioned, what's just happened, he was given

4:59

a bit of a lifeline yesterday. The amount

5:01

of bond that he was told, like nearly

5:04

half a billion dollars was reduced. On the

5:06

other hand, he was told that a court

5:08

date on a different charges would actually

5:10

be coming on April 15th. So

5:13

where do you think he stands politically

5:15

and, you know, with his

5:17

faithful right now? Well,

5:21

I think with his faithful, he's quite strong.

5:23

I just think if you look at the

5:25

data and the numbers, they may

5:27

be louder than before, but they're smaller.

5:29

And if you go to the

5:31

rallies, you'll see that the rallies are smaller. And

5:34

if you look at registrations in

5:36

the Republican Party, Christiana, they're down.

5:39

So the combination of those two things do

5:41

not fold well for the president. As

5:44

it relates to his mindset, you

5:46

know, he'll take one day at a time.

5:48

He's a very good compartmentalizer, but

5:51

this is wreaking havoc on him because

5:53

he's got the money he's got to put

5:55

up. It's not clear that he has

5:57

that money. Of course, when he says he has it,

6:00

that's probably... tell that he doesn't have it. And

6:03

then he's got the criminal proceeding coming up,

6:05

and he knows that his former lawyer,

6:07

Michael Cohen, went to jail for

6:09

that very same fact set. So

6:12

that's going to be a difficult case for him as

6:14

well. And last

6:16

but not least, he's not raising money. And

6:19

so President Biden has a surplus

6:22

differential of about $45 million right

6:24

now. And

6:26

although Mr. Trump does have a

6:28

small cadre of billionaires that are

6:30

going to support him, he doesn't

6:33

have the widespread net that,

6:35

say, a Governor Mitt Romney had in 2012, or George

6:38

W. Bush had, say, in 2000 or 2004. He

6:44

don't Trump, as I said, uses

6:46

these trials and these charges and

6:48

these indictments to say that he

6:50

is the victim. He is the

6:53

persecuted by political opponents.

6:55

And that obviously fires up his base.

6:58

Just explain to us, is there a precedent?

7:00

Well, we know there's not a precedent

7:02

for impeached presidents and those facing criminal

7:05

charges. But in terms of money and

7:08

euro finance here, is

7:11

it allowed to use campaign

7:14

donations and the like to, for

7:16

instance, help with legal bills? So

7:21

the way that would work in the United States

7:23

is that you would have to put it in

7:26

the president's political action committee. And

7:28

so he now has his daughter-in-law

7:31

taking charge of the RNC. And

7:34

in the fine print, when you're sending money

7:36

to the RNC, it says, well,

7:38

the first stop for that money is going to

7:40

be the president's political action committee. And

7:42

it may be used for his legal

7:45

fees. And so as long as

7:47

you're disclosing what the money is

7:50

going to be used for, in the United States,

7:52

you can use the money for those reasons.

7:54

And of course, what Mr. Trump

7:56

did after the election, he lied

7:58

about the election results. He had

8:00

a very large group of people in

8:02

the US believing in election denialism, including

8:06

his friend, Romney McDaniel.

8:09

And what he did was he raised a ton of money

8:12

off of that big lie. And

8:14

he's used a lot of that money for his

8:16

current legal fees on these four different

8:18

cases. So you can use

8:20

the money. But the danger

8:23

for him, and I think he knows this, his

8:25

Facebook ads are down about 85%. His

8:27

Instagram ads are virtually nonexistent.

8:31

And if he doesn't get up on the

8:33

airwaves and in social media and scale, he's

8:36

not going to reach enough people to

8:39

beat President Biden. And so remember, this

8:41

will be down to a few swing

8:43

states. President Biden will

8:45

win the popular vote. Mr. Trump has never

8:47

won that. But it'll be a

8:49

battle in three or four swing states. And

8:51

without the advertising, it's going to be very

8:53

hard for him. So people

8:56

certainly abroad anyway who are looking on and

8:58

who like to read the American tea leaves

9:00

say, well, look at the swing states. In

9:02

some of them, his polls are higher than

9:05

President Biden. And they say,

9:07

wow, look at how convincingly he

9:09

won all the primaries and the

9:11

caucuses leading up to him being

9:13

the official candidate. What would

9:15

you say about that in terms

9:18

of a general election? Well,

9:22

three things. I think he's ahead in the

9:24

polls because he's had way more media exposure

9:26

than President Biden. He just went

9:28

through the primary season for the Republicans.

9:31

And of course, the incumbent president didn't

9:33

have to do that. The

9:35

second thing I would say is if you

9:37

really analyze that data, there's

9:39

approximately 25%

9:42

of the Republicans that voted for

9:44

Nikki Haley when they exited

9:47

the polls and they were asked, well, would you

9:49

vote for Mr. Trump? That

9:51

number was a negative. The

9:54

word was a negative. And so the point being,

9:57

if you don't get the crossover vote,

9:59

You. Really can't win the presidency. Us

10:02

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton did

10:04

not get that crossover vote for

10:06

Bernie Sanders of Iraq. Obama did

10:08

just that. Crossover. Vote from

10:11

Sen. Clinton and so. Are

10:13

and of course Mister Trump got

10:15

that cross both from the his

10:17

fellow republicans in Twenty sixteen. But

10:19

I think that theories. Several.

10:21

Things that are going to happen as we get towards

10:23

the fall. There's a very large group of us. That.

10:25

Of work for the or the President

10:27

is sort of like a Trump Recovery

10:30

you did if you well it includes

10:32

people like secretary. as for General Millie

10:34

or a General John Salley. Built.

10:36

Bar there's a whole host of us. John

10:38

Bolton. Who. Are going to

10:40

go out there and passionately explain to the

10:43

American people the systemic danger of Mister Trump.

10:45

On I think that. The. Problem The

10:47

European Sab with all of this. Is

10:50

that Europeans in general have

10:52

more hereditary memory. Of

10:54

the scourge of Fascism and the

10:56

destruction. That Fascism. Caused

10:59

on the Continent. Of course,

11:01

the United States are We have waited that

11:03

Franklin Delano Roosevelt was able to put down

11:05

the first. America. First movement.

11:08

Which. Was led by people like Charles

11:10

Lindbergh and Father Kaufman Cetera, It's

11:12

a we don't have the hereditary

11:14

memory. We don't have the field

11:16

trip going to places which were

11:18

destroyed. As a result of

11:21

Fascists leaders declaring war on

11:23

Western liberal democracies. Are and

11:25

I think it's a little bit of a problem

11:27

for the country or but again they'll be a

11:29

very large group of us com the fall. Out

11:32

on the airwaves on the

11:34

campaign, explaining to people, With.

11:36

Systemic danger that down from

11:39

represents. The. The institutions of

11:41

the democracy. And basically to

11:43

the fabric of America, the checks

11:45

and balances system. That. Of need

11:47

people free in this country by a

11:50

large very cross is. Really? Interesting that

11:52

you mention those. Individuals yourself included. Simple:

11:54

Gonna do this because I was going

11:56

to ask you, i'm. In

11:58

the first administration. There were

12:01

a lot of accomplished individuals

12:03

who were put in very

12:06

important cabinet positions. And

12:08

people thought, well, you know, at least I

12:10

hate to say this, there were adults in

12:12

the room and they were able to put

12:14

the, you know, put the brakes on any

12:17

kind of completely crazy behavior. Do

12:19

you think a, are

12:21

there those people and would, would a

12:23

president Trump choose that kind

12:25

of, you know, character to

12:28

be his main cabinet officials in a

12:30

second term? So

12:33

I'm a little bit of a contrarian on this.

12:35

I don't, I don't buy into the punditry argument

12:38

that he's just going to pick loyalists. First

12:40

of all, these aren't well-resuméed

12:43

people, these loyalists. And

12:46

secondarily, Mr. Trump has always been a

12:48

status seeker and he's

12:50

somebody that will want resumes in

12:53

his cabinet. And unfortunately, if he, if he

12:55

does win, and I predict that he won't,

12:58

there will be people that will be gravitated

13:00

to the American government, much the way many

13:03

of us were, where we thought there was

13:05

a call to service to serve the American

13:07

people and not realizing

13:09

the full insanity that Mr. Trump

13:11

represented. So people will do

13:14

that. Obviously, Kevin McCarthy is flying around

13:16

with him on the Trump plane. He

13:18

could potentially be his chief of staff,

13:20

John Paulson, who is a hedge

13:23

fund billionaire, has been

13:25

cited to be potentially the treasury, the

13:27

secretary, secretary of the treasury. So I,

13:30

I don't buy the argument that he'll just be

13:32

loyalist. Mr. Trump doesn't have that

13:34

type of personality. He'll bring in people that

13:36

he thinks are well-resuméed. Okay. Well,

13:39

let's then talk about issues for a moment.

13:41

I will get to you and, and, and

13:44

what you learned in those, in

13:46

the campaign and in those 11 days in the Oval

13:48

Office. But you

13:50

know, let's just go to foreign policy. So

13:52

if I remember rightly when I was covering

13:54

the first term, his, his only term,

13:58

He basically promised to solve the. Israel

14:00

Palestinian. Conflict with the deal of

14:02

the century Ce Said he would end

14:04

the Ayatollahs regime in Iran. By pulling

14:06

out of the nuclear deal and applying maximum

14:09

precious course, None of that happens. He now

14:11

says he could settle the Ukraine was

14:13

in twenty four hours. Nobody as she

14:16

believes. As possible on does

14:18

he have a worldview? That

14:20

shapes of foreign policy and and

14:23

how do you think? People.

14:25

Who saw what happened last summer? Let's not

14:27

even go into Nato. We've we've gone over

14:29

that many, many times. He threatens the sanctity.

14:31

Of Nato's questions, the idea of all

14:34

for One and one for all Article

14:36

Five. Will.

14:39

Either he does have a worldview you

14:41

left out that he was gonna balanced

14:43

budget for years, but he he puts

14:45

seven twenty trillion dollars. On. Top

14:48

of the other budget deficits.

14:50

His worldview or thankfully is

14:52

now well articulated by him.

14:55

About the shrub world view and his acolytes.

14:57

the ban is to bring the United States

14:59

back to the Eighty Nine. To.

15:01

Wallet off. From. The

15:03

rest of the global civilization,

15:05

both physically and metaphorically. And.

15:08

To disavow the David Ricardo

15:10

principle of global trade. And

15:12

so Mister Trump would like to see something like

15:14

what was going on of us. In

15:16

eighty ninety were ninety seven percent of

15:18

the goods and services. That. Were

15:21

manufactured in the Us were consumed

15:23

by Americans. Are you'll have

15:25

a very strong anti immigration stands as

15:27

well. Ah, And it'll be

15:29

a disaster for the global community. Author might

15:31

be a long term. Exacerbate.

15:34

Disaster for the American people are the

15:36

good news is he couldn't really accomplish

15:38

that. and four years. But. The

15:40

real fear is if you know the

15:42

man. He. Will do everything he

15:45

can to expand executive powers. He's.

15:47

Got a very strong team of people

15:49

working for him on his campaign that

15:51

believe in the expansion. Of what

15:54

they're calling unitary executive power. and

15:56

so this is something that we have to fight

15:58

against is really understand the marvel

16:01

of the American Republican system

16:03

are these wonderful checks and balances and

16:05

the separation of powers in

16:08

our Constitution. Mr. Trump deplores that.

16:10

He doesn't really understand it, but

16:12

he'll go after that, and that's why we have to stop

16:14

him. Again, I want to take

16:16

it back to foreign policy because he made

16:18

very grandiose gestures. Not only I remember the

16:21

Helsinki presser in which he seemed to side,

16:23

well, he did side with

16:25

President Putin's view of the

16:27

world against his own intelligence

16:29

community, but he also notoriously

16:31

attacked verbally at the UN Kim

16:33

Jong-un of North Korea, and then went

16:35

to three meetings with him in which

16:37

he promised that the two of them

16:39

had a lovely bromance that was going

16:41

to end the Korean Peninsula

16:44

conflict. But I spoke to, and of

16:46

course didn't happen, the former South

16:49

Korea foreign minister told me that

16:51

the Hanoi summit and all those, you know,

16:53

in 2019 or whatever, she said it was

16:56

a debacle, and this is why. Here's what

16:59

she said. The

17:01

president has tremendous desire,

17:03

intention to do something, but there

17:06

was very little backup at the

17:08

working level. And this is, you

17:11

know, this is the typical Trump

17:13

leadership on these issues. Will, but

17:15

very little follow-up and support from

17:18

the working level. So that's a

17:20

huge lesson when we ever go

17:23

back to a phase of engagement with

17:25

North Korea. So I

17:27

found that quite extraordinary for a chief diplomat

17:29

of a country to say that about a

17:32

former US president. And it's possible that the

17:34

North Korea, I mean, intelligence types in

17:36

the US say this could be another

17:38

major problem. They have nuclear weapons. What

17:43

happens if Trump inserts himself into

17:45

Israel, Palestine or North

17:47

Korea in a second term? What

17:49

do you think would come of it? Well,

17:52

well, well, let's take them separately

17:54

on the North Korean issue. I

17:56

think the State Department has ultimately

17:58

been right. 60 or 70 years

18:01

of this type of engagement that

18:03

we've had with North Korea is the best

18:05

that we could do. And I don't think

18:07

if he tries to re-engage with

18:09

the North Korean dictator that anything positive is going

18:12

to come out of it. The

18:14

Israeli-Palestinian issue, I think,

18:16

is more tender and way more sensitive.

18:19

But remember, Mr. Trump loves Vladimir

18:21

Putin. He speaks about

18:23

him in these grandiose terms.

18:26

He wants to be part of the

18:29

axis of autocracy, which is why he's

18:31

always praising these dictators. We

18:33

have to remember that the Putin regime is very

18:35

close to the Iranians. And

18:37

the Iranians, as you know and I

18:40

know, they have in their constitution the

18:42

exportation of their revolution, but they also

18:44

want to wipe Israel off the map.

18:47

And so his buddy Putin has an

18:49

OZ from the Iranians. And

18:51

Mr. Trump is very, very transactional. All the

18:53

stuff that he said about Israel in the

18:55

past, it's not impossible for

18:58

him to back a truck over

19:00

the Israeli nation or the Israeli

19:02

people. And I think people have

19:04

to understand that about him. He turns on

19:06

everybody. And so this is

19:08

a very dangerous thing. He

19:11

would be horrible for Israel, particularly

19:13

because of this relationship that he wants to

19:15

have with Putin and the

19:17

OZ that Putin has to Iran. So

19:20

I would be very, very worried about this

19:22

from a national security perspective. And

19:25

back to a domestic perspective, and it's a

19:27

big one, it appears that President Trump and

19:29

the Republicans miscalculated when essentially

19:32

by stacking the court they

19:35

caused the reverse of Roe

19:37

versus Wade. And American women and girls

19:39

and many men have voted

19:41

many times against that. Now President

19:43

Trump is talking about how he

19:45

might come down on a national abortion

19:48

ban around 15 weeks. Where

19:51

do you think that issue will land him

19:53

in November? So

19:58

I think this is good news for the

20:00

Democrats. and for the Biden administration, I

20:02

think the dye has already been cast about

20:05

how Republicans feel about this. And no

20:07

matter what Mr. Trump says about the

20:10

IVF situation or the

20:12

abortion situation, I

20:14

believe this suburban families, not

20:16

just women, but men and

20:18

women, are gonna come out and

20:20

cast their votes against him. And

20:23

this will be one of the central reasons. And so look

20:26

at what happened in the midterms. President Biden

20:28

had a much better showing than people had

20:31

anticipated. He outdid President

20:34

Obama and certainly Donald Trump. And

20:38

so for me, I think this is a core

20:40

critical issue that we have to

20:42

explain to the American people going forward. And

20:45

this is the good news about this

20:47

extremism in the Republican Party. It will

20:50

catch up to them in November. I've

20:52

got 30 seconds. I didn't ask you about your

20:54

experience. What about your experience in the White House

20:57

that makes you think this now?

20:59

15 seconds. Just

21:03

the guy's crazy. I don't have enough time

21:05

to explain it all, Christiana. You would need

21:07

a phone book of all the things that

21:09

he's done, but he's crazy. And

21:11

you don't need a leader like that on the global

21:13

stage again. And we're gonna work very, very hard to

21:15

make sure that doesn't happen. Anthony

21:17

Scaramucci, thank you so much for joining us. Hi,

21:24

this is Andy Katz. This is a post of

21:26

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21:28

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21:30

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21:32

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you just said, done. Always

22:30

drive safely. They

23:00

drop, they run as fast as

23:02

they can. It's

23:04

the rush of a people so desperate,

23:06

so hungry, who would

23:08

do anything to feed their children, now

23:10

on the brink of starvation. This

23:13

is what survival in Gaza has come

23:15

to, fighting for food. That

23:19

little bit of aid that makes it into

23:21

the north, where man-made famine now looms.

23:24

People chase parachutes that fell into

23:27

these choppy waters. There's

23:29

desperation that drives them into the sea.

23:32

What they're about to see next is disturbing.

23:35

It's the reality of a war growing more

23:37

cruel by the day. The

23:39

fastest the city emerged with boxes

23:42

of American issues and is ready to eat.

23:45

Others didn't make it out alive. People

23:48

gather around the thin frail body of a man

23:50

who drowned trying to reach that age.

23:53

Twelve people drowned, according to

23:55

paramedics. The

23:57

parachutes fell into the water of Mohammed.

24:00

says, but people want to eat. They

24:02

went into the water and drowned. The

24:04

current was so strong they didn't know

24:06

how to swim. It's

24:09

what you do when you have nothing left to

24:11

lose. A

24:13

man goes in swimming to get food

24:15

for his children. He returns dead. This

24:18

man says, bring us aid

24:20

through the land crossings. Our children are

24:22

dying. We are dying. What are you

24:24

doing? Where is the world? The

24:27

world has been piling up life-saving aid

24:30

into trucks stuck at land crossings,

24:32

seemingly powerless in the face

24:34

of Israel that's accused of using starvation

24:36

as a weapon in this war, a

24:39

charge it denies. It was

24:41

in the international community to resort to

24:43

dropping aid from the sky. Several

24:45

countries carried out aid drops on this day,

24:48

deliveries that have been criticized for

24:50

being ineffective and sufficient and unsafe.

24:55

Earlier this month, another air drop

24:57

disaster, when a parachute failed and

24:59

aid packages came crashing down, killing

25:02

at least five people. It's

25:06

a war that's testing humanity. And

25:08

many say this is what failure

25:10

looks like. Ramana

25:15

Karadzhe reporting there. Now, long

25:18

before Twitter trolls and online hate

25:20

campaigns, there was pen and paper.

25:23

And though the tech may have been a little

25:25

bit more rudimentary, people could be just as

25:27

vicious. And that is the inspiration behind

25:29

a string of anonymous poison pen

25:32

letters and a new comedy called

25:34

Wicked Little Letters. It brings a real

25:36

life scandal that rocked the sleepy town

25:38

of Little Hampton on the English coast

25:41

in the 1920s to the big screen

25:43

now. Here's a clip. The

25:47

mystery of the obscene Little Hampton

25:50

letters is causing widespread distress across

25:52

the nation. It's

26:00

a whodunit, I recently talked

26:02

about it with the Oscar-winning

26:04

star of the film, Olivia

26:21

Colman and director Thea Sharrock.

26:24

Welcome to you both and thanks for being

26:26

on with us. So Olivia

26:29

Colman, you have

26:31

been in our lives with

26:34

many, many iconic roles, you know,

26:36

the Queen and many Queens and

26:38

it's been incredible, Oscars and all the rest of

26:40

it. This is a little film about

26:42

little letters. What inspired you,

26:45

what drew you to this script? I

26:48

just thought it would be fun, quite

26:51

simply. You know,

26:53

sort of sometimes you do a lot

26:56

of heavy work and then something like comes along and you're like,

26:59

yes, that's what I'd like to do now. And

27:01

it was in the UK, which is a plus, so I didn't

27:03

have to be away from my family. And

27:06

I had never heard of this story and to

27:08

find out that it's true, I just, I enjoyed

27:11

it so much and I think that is basically what

27:14

it was. Okay, I'm going

27:16

to get to the story in a moment, but see

27:18

it for you as the director. How did you get

27:20

introduced to it? What made you turn this into a

27:22

movie? Well,

27:25

I was lucky enough to receive

27:28

it, not

27:31

knowing anything about it, except

27:33

for Olivia was already playing the

27:35

lead. So I had no

27:37

idea what the genre was. I

27:39

had no idea it was based on a true

27:41

story. I didn't really know what to expect, but

27:45

I read it with Olivia both in mind

27:47

and I could hear her voice, which was

27:49

a great start. I

27:51

had no expectations of it being anything like

27:53

as funny as it is, which for

27:56

a director to laugh out loud on your

27:58

first reading is pure joy. And

28:00

then to discover after that that it was based on

28:02

a true story. And

28:05

the sort of crazy mishaps that happened

28:07

within it, as

28:09

well as, probably

28:11

the thing that drew me to it most

28:13

of all was A, the comedy, but also

28:15

there's room for fantastic

28:18

performances. In prison, Rosemary,

28:20

and there's some kindred spirits. In prison. No, no,

28:22

not the mergers or the rapists. I'm thinking more

28:24

the drunks and the queers maybe. Just

28:27

trying to find a bright side. The

28:29

unraveling of who this woman

28:31

is. In

28:34

fact, all the characters were already so

28:36

well. Well,

28:38

they were obviously based on real people, but Johnny

28:40

Sweet, the writer, had done the most beautiful job

28:43

of creating both a comedy and

28:45

also a drama. There are incredibly

28:47

intimate vulnerable moments

28:51

inside, you

28:53

know, great moments of comedy. And then on top

28:55

of all of that for it to be real.

28:58

For me, it was a no-brainer. Let's just talk a

29:00

little bit about the storyline. So, Olivia,

29:03

you play a kind of a buttoned

29:05

up lady of the era in

29:07

the seaside town. This very

29:10

gregarious Irish young girl

29:12

comes to the town played by Jesse

29:14

Buckley. You become friends and then you're

29:16

dealing with a string of poisonous horrible

29:18

letters that are being directed to you. And

29:21

it's about who did it. So

29:23

it's pretty hilarious. And there's quite a lot

29:25

of big scenes

29:27

of sort of female confrontations that we

29:29

don't generally see in movies, especially if

29:31

not of that time. Tell us a

29:34

little bit about that. Yes. So

29:38

Edith Swan, who I play on

29:40

the face of it, is pious

29:43

Christian, sort of the perfect woman

29:46

of that time and very

29:48

well behaved, lives still with her parents

29:50

and still weirdly sleeps in the

29:52

same room as her parents. Oh, that's weird. Weird. And

29:55

then Jesse Buckley, who I

29:58

play on the face of, She plays Rose

30:01

Goodlee, who in that

30:03

period, everybody looked at as

30:07

a shocking example of womanhood and an

30:09

unmarried mother. But

30:11

these two women become friends. They sort of

30:13

see each other because we find out that

30:15

behind closed doors, Edith is not having a

30:18

nice time. And

30:20

it's not a particularly loving

30:22

household. And

30:25

this friendship sort of starts

30:27

up, but then something happens,

30:29

which I'm not sure what happened.

30:32

Yeah, yeah. Spoilers, we don't want

30:34

to do spoilers. Okay, I'm going to take it

30:36

from there because this investigation then starts when you

30:38

start getting these poison letters. Those are the

30:40

wicked little letters of the title. And

30:43

Rose, Jessie Buckley, gets

30:45

arrested because she is

30:47

thought to have done this. I

30:50

want to play one of the clips. You

30:52

did it. You did it. You did it.

30:55

You charging her? Under libel, not a small offence. No,

30:57

it isn't. What's the evidence? Motive,

30:59

timeline. You let me out of here. I'm

31:01

exaggerating. Stop. I'm

31:06

taking the f*** out of

31:08

here. Similarities

31:14

in the language. Mm-hmm.

31:18

So I can see you both laughing as you're

31:20

listening and remembering. And I mean, so much of

31:23

it was bleep that we can't figure out

31:25

what the heck is going on. Was there

31:27

a lot of that on set? Are

31:29

you all pretty potty

31:31

mouthed and you were allowed to

31:33

deliver? Shall we tell

31:35

the truth? Yeah, go on, Thea. Olivia's

31:38

incredibly potty mouthed. Is she? So

31:40

Jessie doesn't... Spoilers wouldn't melt in your mouth. And actually...

31:43

Thank you. Um, no,

31:45

we all are. We

31:48

all are. We all like it.

31:50

Proudly. Yeah. Yeah. I

31:53

think it's a nice seasoning of language. And isn't it a bit restrictive

31:55

when you go to try to promote this thing and you

31:57

can't really show? Any

32:00

scenes or talk in that vernacular? Well,

32:04

that's why we don't do lives, Telly. I

32:09

get quite nervous and I get a bit

32:11

more sweary when I'm nervous. I'm really trying

32:13

not to say anything bad now. You're doing

32:15

really well. I really am. You're doing really

32:17

well. Amazing. But I know that

32:19

you can bleep it out. I'm so sorry. What

32:22

are your favorite swear words? Oh,

32:24

now, you see... Can we say it? American

32:26

audiences really aren't keen on my favorite word.

32:29

No. Can you imagine

32:31

what my favorite word is? I'm not going to

32:33

say it. I will be lambasted and pilloried. Well,

32:37

I do maintain that it's actually quite a cultured word

32:39

because Chaucer did use it. Yeah, ******** is my favorite.

32:42

Oh, okay. Well, we'll be bleeping that. Thea,

32:45

do you have one? Yeah, I thought you might. Well,

32:47

I like to counterbalance, so I go

32:49

with bollocks. Okay. I think we can

32:51

keep that one. That's not

32:53

too bad. Okay, thank you. Yeah,

32:56

sorry. See you wins, Olivia. You're

32:58

clean out of luck. I'm going

33:00

to play another scene. It's you

33:02

and Rose outside the houses.

33:04

Here goes it. See

33:12

you, see you, see you, see you, see you, see you. I

33:15

mean it. She was a good lady, your mother. How

33:19

have you been getting on? Oh,

33:21

I've been feeling grand. Thank you. How

33:24

about you? I'm a wee

33:27

bit preoccupied. Yes,

33:29

I see they trumpet me in Parliament. And

33:32

there's a range of opinions. Where

33:35

did you learn to read? A

33:37

local priest taught me. Nissi

33:40

said he was a priest. I asked me to look to

33:42

Morocco in the end. He

33:44

was a fine tutor of letters. How

33:47

about yourself? I

33:49

used to help my father with the sign writing. From

33:52

a very early age. I did all the ones for Glinson's

33:54

Dairy when I was only eight. Oh,

34:01

would you return my patty pants before the

34:03

trial next week? Just

34:06

in case I don't see you for a long while afterwards.

34:18

So we're obviously not going to do a spoiler

34:20

alert. We're not going to say who is

34:22

the writer of these poisonous letters. But

34:24

more seriously, you know, you do play

34:26

women of a certain era, both of you in

34:28

that film. And Olivia, you played

34:30

women throughout many, many eras. You know,

34:33

your roles have been very emblematic and

34:35

iconic. What are

34:38

you saying, I guess, or what is the film

34:40

saying about women of that era and

34:42

the progress? Well,

34:44

I think there's an assumption that women in the

34:46

1920s wouldn't have fawn. I

34:52

love the fact my mum said to me when I was a

34:54

teenager, every generation

34:56

thinks they've invented sex. And

34:58

I think we feel similarly about bad language. But

35:01

there was a huge increase in swearing after the First

35:03

World War, apparently. I think the sort of experiences

35:07

that happened, people thought,

35:11

I need some kind of a release. And so

35:14

language, what am

35:16

I trying to say, language? Well,

35:19

there was also a massive increase in

35:21

poison pen letters, which is where this

35:23

whole thing... It was a release of

35:25

abstractions. Absolutely. So whether it was spoken

35:27

or written, that's where this story came

35:29

from. Yeah. And, Fia, in fact, and

35:31

we sort of said blithely that before

35:33

there was Twitter and trolling and social media,

35:35

there were poison pen letters. So

35:38

this also is very relevant to

35:40

today. Yes.

35:43

Yeah. The obvious comparisons

35:45

are that 100 years

35:47

ago, poison pen letters were happening, which hurt

35:49

people. And there were prison sentences handed

35:51

out. 100 years later, you'd hope

35:53

that we'd have learnt from that. Turns out we haven't.

35:55

And for anything, we've got much worse. And

35:58

there seems to be no repercussions. And

36:00

it's so much easier. That's the big thing. If

36:03

you want to say something, hurt

36:05

somebody, offend somebody, you can

36:07

do it publicly and you can do it in a

36:09

second and it can go out across

36:11

the world. So, you

36:13

know, advancement

36:16

in one sense and what

36:18

feels like no lessons learned

36:20

at all in another, but perhaps that's

36:22

humanity and it's just the way we

36:24

are. And Theo, you began your career

36:26

with amazing theatre here in the UK

36:29

and I wonder whether you see in what

36:31

you've done, not just from where you started

36:33

but where you are now, whether

36:36

roles for women are beginning

36:38

to be taken as seriously as they should

36:40

because women, are they

36:42

considered now big box office draws?

36:46

I would say yes. And actually,

36:48

research suggests that they've always been

36:50

big box office draws, because they

36:52

have chosen to say, don't get me

36:54

started on the pay disparity, but male actors

36:56

get paid more because they used to say

36:58

they draw in the audiences and actually that

37:00

hasn't been true for decades. But

37:03

they still like to use that as a reason to

37:05

not pay women as much as their male counterparts. Yeah.

37:08

In our industry. So that's easier because I want

37:10

to know what, yeah, tell me, do you have

37:12

a pay disparity? I mean, you're an Oscar winning

37:14

actress, Olivia. I'm very aware

37:17

that if I was Oliver Coleman, I'd

37:19

be earning a f*** up a lot more than I

37:21

am. And I'm not saying I'm absolutely

37:24

yes. I'm aware of, I

37:27

know of one pay disparity, which is a 12,000% difference. I

37:31

know, I'll put that that later. Oh,

37:33

gosh. Yes. Do the math. I know. So,

37:35

Thea, on that note, obviously,

37:38

Barbie was the biggest grossing movie

37:40

of the year. And

37:42

yeah, all women all the time, plus the

37:44

fabulous Ken. Do you think that empowers

37:46

people like you to go out with

37:49

these with more of these kinds of scripts?

37:52

I really hope so. And I do.

37:55

I feel as though that there has definitely

37:57

been a change. I would say looking back

37:59

over the. the last 10, 15 years,

38:01

certainly in theatre and in film now

38:04

too, without question, and TV.

38:06

I think you

38:09

come across many more women in

38:13

powerful positions, in decision

38:15

making positions, as

38:17

well as in the creative side of

38:19

things. So for sure, when I was

38:22

kind of growing up within the industry,

38:25

there were hardly ever, I never

38:27

really came across many female

38:29

directors who were also mothers.

38:32

I came across various women who had chosen to

38:34

have children and then felt they couldn't carry on

38:37

with their job, or women who

38:39

had chosen not to have children in order

38:41

to keep going with their job. So that's one

38:43

of the major things that I feel has shifted

38:45

hugely. Well look, on that

38:47

note, Thea Sharrock, Olivia Colman, thank you both

38:49

so much for joining us. Wicked little letters.

38:52

Thank you very much. Thanks for having us.

38:56

And that film is out now in

38:58

the UK, releases in the United States

39:00

this Friday. Well,

39:06

whether it's explicative filled letter writing or

39:08

the kind of political campaigning we discussed

39:11

earlier in the programme, there's one

39:13

skill they both require and that is

39:15

effective communication. Of course, throughout

39:17

history and still today, it's a

39:20

tool of the powerful for both good

39:22

and bad. But it's also crucial

39:24

in all of our daily lives,

39:26

in the workplace, in our personal

39:28

relationships, and more than ever online.

39:30

So how can we communicate better

39:32

and make that a force for

39:34

positive change? Author Charles

39:36

Duhigg explores this question in his

39:38

new book, Super Communicators. And here

39:40

he is speaking to Walter Isaacson.

39:45

Thank you, Christiane and Charles Duhigg.

39:47

Welcome to the show. Thank

39:49

you for having me. So this

39:52

book Super Communicators, it's all about how

39:54

to have a great conversation, how to

39:56

convince people. Tell me, what

39:58

is the point of a conversation? It's

40:01

a great question. The point of a conversation

40:03

is to understand each other, right? It's not

40:05

to convince you that I'm right and you're

40:07

wrong or that you should like me or

40:09

think I'm smart. The point of a conversation

40:11

and a conversation is a success if

40:13

I understand how you see the world and I'm

40:15

able to speak in a way that you understand

40:18

how I see the world. And that means that

40:20

we could walk away from that conversation disagreeing with

40:22

each other and it's still a success. But

40:25

what you talk about is that a conversation

40:27

must make a connection. What do you mean

40:29

by that? What we know about when we

40:32

have conversations is that our

40:34

neural activity becomes similar. And

40:37

that makes sense because when I describe an

40:39

emotion to you or an idea, you actually

40:41

experience that emotion or that idea a little

40:43

bit. Within psychology and neurology,

40:45

this is known as neural entrainment and it's

40:47

a core of how we communicate with each

40:50

other. And so when we make that connection,

40:52

when we have a great conversation, when

40:54

we feel like we're on the same

40:56

wavelength, it feels wonderful because our brains

40:58

have evolved to crave that kind of

41:00

communication connection. You say that

41:02

people are hardwired and some people are

41:04

really hardwired to do these connections. You

41:07

and I have covered a lot of people in

41:09

the tech industry and other things. There are a

41:11

lot of people we know who are not hardwired.

41:13

I mean, even the smartest of them, maybe Elon

41:15

Musk, Bill Gates, I could pick a couple right

41:18

there. Are there certain people

41:20

are hardwired and what can you do if

41:22

you're not hardwired for this? So

41:24

we're actually all hardwired for this, right?

41:26

Even Elon Musk and Bill Gates, even

41:28

those folks who can seem awkward when

41:31

in an unfamiliar setting,

41:35

they are hardwired for conversation and connection as

41:37

much as any of us. So

41:39

consistent super communicators. There was a study done

41:41

asking them if they were always good at

41:43

communication. And what they said was, no, when I

41:45

was in high school, I was unpopular. So

41:47

I had to pay attention to how other

41:49

kids communicated with each other

41:51

or my parents got divorced and I had to

41:54

play a peacemaker between them. And what

41:56

they're really saying is there was a time in my life

41:58

when I had to think about communication. communication. And thinking

42:00

about communication made me better at it. It

42:02

made me recognize that there were these skills

42:04

that would help me connect with other people.

42:07

And whether it's Bill Gates or Elon

42:09

Musk or Barack Obama or Bill Clinton,

42:12

all of those people at times

42:14

have been super communicators because

42:17

they thought deeply about how communication

42:19

ought to occur. And when

42:21

we stop thinking about it, when we let ourselves

42:23

relax and we stop having

42:25

dialogues and just start monologuing, stop

42:27

listening and stop asking questions, we

42:30

can become a bad communicator again. But if

42:33

we understand the skills that make us better

42:35

at communication, if we think deeply about those

42:37

skills, that will

42:40

make us a super communicator regardless of who we are.

42:42

Okay, let's talk about those skills. As you

42:45

say, each of us can develop. Name

42:47

a couple of skills and how people should

42:49

try to develop them. The first is this

42:52

thing known as the matching principle of communication.

42:54

And there's a story in the book about

42:56

this CIA officer who is

42:58

just terrible at his job. He's terrible

43:00

at recruiting overseas spies until he figures

43:02

out how to match people. And matching

43:05

comes from what researchers have discovered that we

43:07

tend to think of a discussion as being

43:09

about one thing, but actually every discussion is

43:11

made up of multiple kinds of

43:14

conversations. And those kinds of

43:16

conversations tend to fall into one of three buckets.

43:18

There's practical conversations where we're talking about plans or

43:20

solving problems. There's emotional conversations where I

43:22

tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want

43:24

you to solve my feelings. I want you to

43:26

empathize. And there's social conversations, which is

43:28

about how we relate to each other. And

43:31

very often, super communicators know that

43:33

you have to be having the same kind

43:35

of conversation at the same time in order

43:38

to connect. So if I come home and

43:40

I start complaining about my day to my wife and I'm having

43:42

an emotional conversation, and she responds with practical advice and says,

43:44

why don't you take your boss out to lunch and get

43:46

to know him a little bit better? That's not going to

43:48

solve the problem for me. In fact, I'm not going to

43:50

be able to hear what she's saying. It's

43:53

only when we're having the same kind of

43:55

conversation, when we match each other, that we'll

43:57

really be able to communicate and then we

44:00

can move from emotional to practical. practical to

44:02

social, back to emotional together. You talk about

44:04

how a CIA spy recruiter figured

44:06

this out. I think his name's Jim Lawler in

44:09

the book. Tell me that

44:11

story. So Jim Lawler is

44:13

this wonderful guy who at 30 years

44:15

old, he was sent overseas by the

44:17

CIA for his first assignment, which was

44:19

to go recruit spies in Europe. And

44:21

he was terrible at it. He kept, he would, he

44:23

would go to these embassy parties and try and buddy

44:25

up to people and they would say things like, I

44:28

know that you're trying to recruit me as a spy.

44:30

I'm going to report you to the authorities if you

44:32

don't stop right now. Now eventually

44:34

there was this woman who came to town

44:36

who worked for her foreign ministry in the

44:38

Middle Eastern country. And so

44:40

Lawler goes up and he introduces herself and he

44:42

gets to know her. He befriends her. And

44:44

eventually he says, I'm working for the CIA.

44:46

Will you work with me? And

44:48

she, she panics. She says, no, look in my

44:50

country, they murder people for that. I can't participate

44:52

in this at all. So

44:55

Lawler goes and he tells his bosses, I tried to recruit this

44:57

woman and it didn't work. And they say,

44:59

look, you're going to get fired, my friend. You

45:01

got to recruit someone. You've been here for almost a

45:03

year. So he convinces this woman

45:05

Yasmin to have one more dinner with him. And

45:08

instead of trying to make arguments to her, instead of trying to,

45:11

to, to charm her or win her over,

45:13

he just decides, look, this is pointless.

45:15

It's not going to work. I'm just going to be as

45:17

honest as I can be. And he

45:19

starts telling her how disappointed he is in himself,

45:21

how, how he understands that she's about to

45:23

go home. And she feels like she's, she's

45:26

wasting her life because he feels like he's wasting his

45:28

life. All he ever wanted to do was

45:31

be a CIA officer. And here he is terrible

45:33

at it. And it's at that

45:35

moment that Yasmin is able to hear what he's saying.

45:38

And she says, I can help you. I

45:41

can become an asset for you. And she ended up

45:43

being the best resource in the Middle East over the

45:45

next 20 years. But Lawler was

45:47

only able to recruit her. She was only able to hear

45:49

what Lawler was saying when he was

45:51

authentic and honest. And when he engaged

45:54

in this reciprocal vulnerability, when

45:56

she shared something about himself, he shared something true

45:59

about himself. And in doing so, they

46:01

were able to forge a connection. And

46:03

this is true for all of us. All

46:05

of us have an instinct towards reciprocal vulnerability.

46:09

When we are vulnerable ourselves, when we hear

46:11

other people's vulnerability, we trust each

46:13

other more, we like each other more, and

46:15

we end up communicating much, much better. Tell

46:17

me how this grew out of your own

46:19

experience. So

46:22

I was made a manager at the New York Times

46:24

at one point, and I thought that I would be

46:26

a great manager because I've had managers my whole life.

46:28

I went to a fancy business school and got an

46:31

MBA. And I

46:33

was okay at the logistics part, but

46:35

I was terrible at the communication part, just

46:37

awful at it. And the same

46:39

thing would happen at home. I would come home and I

46:42

would talk to my wife and I would complain about my

46:44

day and she would suggest some practical

46:46

advice. And instead of hearing her, I would

46:48

get even more upset and say, why aren't

46:50

you supporting me? You're supposed

46:52

to be outraged on my behalf. And what I

46:54

realized is that I

46:56

was not having conversations. I

46:59

was not listening to the other person. I

47:01

was monologuing, right? I was waiting my

47:03

turn to speak. And one

47:05

of the things that we know about conversations

47:07

is that when we ask questions, when we

47:09

ask a special kind of question known as

47:11

a deep question, it tends

47:13

to change a monologue into a dialogue

47:16

because we really listen to the other

47:18

person. And when

47:21

we prove that we're listening, they become more willing to

47:23

listen to us. And so it's

47:25

transformed how I communicate. When I come home now

47:27

and I start complaining, my wife will often say,

47:29

do you want me to listen to you or

47:31

do you want me to help you solve this

47:33

problem together? And it feels wonderful to

47:36

have her ask that. And I try

47:38

and do the same thing. You talk about

47:40

asking the deep question as I can transform

47:42

a conversation. Give me an example what you

47:44

mean by that. A deep question is something

47:47

that asks about our values, our beliefs, our

47:49

experiences. And that can sound kind of intimidating,

47:51

but it's actually as easy as if you

47:53

bump into someone and they're a doctor. Instead

47:55

of asking them, oh, where do you practice

47:57

medicine? Asking, oh, where? What

48:00

made you decide to go to medical school? What

48:02

do you love about practicing medicine? When

48:04

you ask those questions, what you're really asking is,

48:07

tell me who you actually are. Tell

48:09

me something about yourself, about what you care

48:11

about. In general, the principle is,

48:14

asking about the facts of someone's life can often

48:16

be a dead end. Asking how

48:18

they feel about their life invites

48:21

them to say something meaningful and real.

48:24

And they've actually started teaching this in schools

48:26

to teachers. When teachers encounter

48:28

a student who's having a problem, they'll often say

48:30

to them, do you want me to help

48:33

you? Do you want me to hear you? Or

48:36

do you want me to hug you? And

48:38

what they're really asking there is, what kind of

48:40

conversation do you need to have right now? And

48:44

tell me who you are. Tell me what's important

48:46

to you. Because when we get

48:48

asked those deep questions, that's when

48:50

we open up and we start having a

48:52

real conversation. In your book, you have a

48:54

whole lot of wonderful tales and anecdotes, whether

48:56

it be on spies or police. But you

48:59

also have a lot of neuroscience. And you

49:01

say we're in a golden age of

49:03

this neuroscience. Tell me what the

49:05

neuroscience taught you. When we're having

49:08

a conversation, like this conversation right now, what's interesting is

49:10

neither of us are aware of it, but

49:13

our breath, our breath rate has started to

49:15

match each other. Our heart rate is similar.

49:18

And more importantly, what's happening inside

49:20

our brains becomes more and more

49:22

similar. We become what's

49:24

known as neurally entrained. And

49:27

this neural entrainment, it feels wonderful.

49:30

That's why having a great conversation feels so

49:33

good. And what we know is

49:35

that the more entrained we become, the more our

49:37

thoughts become similar, the more

49:39

we can understand each other, the more we

49:41

hear each other. And

49:43

that makes sense because when I explain to

49:46

you what I'm feeling or what I'm thinking,

49:48

and you experience that emotion a little bit

49:50

yourself, or you experience that idea, that

49:54

connection is at the core

49:56

of communication. That's what we

49:58

mean when we say, connected and I communicated

50:01

with that person. We were on the same wavelength.

50:04

And it's actually hardwired into our brains, not

50:06

only to be able to achieve this entrainment,

50:08

but to crave it, to want it. You

50:11

know, the US Surgeon General said that being lonely is

50:13

the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

50:15

And 15 cigarettes is a lot of

50:17

cigarettes. When we are

50:19

connected to other people, when we are entrained

50:21

with them, when we ask some

50:24

questions and we reveal vulnerable things about

50:26

ourselves, when we're authentic together, that

50:28

is when we feel a real

50:31

connection to someone else. That's

50:33

how we become happy and healthy and

50:35

successful in life. I loved

50:37

your previous book, The Power of Habit.

50:39

And I saw some connections between the

50:42

two. Explain what the themes are that

50:44

transfer from the power of habit to

50:46

this book. Yeah, absolutely. And

50:48

thank you for that. And the power of

50:50

habit is really about how we form habits,

50:52

how habits exist within our brains. And

50:55

it's very self-focused. I realized after I wrote The

50:58

Power of Habit, I get emails from

51:00

people who would say, look, this is great.

51:02

It helps me improve my habits. But I've got

51:04

this boss who's driving me crazy. How do I

51:06

change his habits or her habits? And

51:08

of course, the answer is we do

51:10

that through conversation. We do that through

51:13

communication. So what I realized

51:15

is that when we

51:17

talk about conversation communication, when we

51:19

identify these people who are super

51:21

communicators and can connect with almost

51:23

anyone, the reason why

51:25

they're so good at this is not only because they

51:27

think a little bit more about communication, it's

51:30

also because they've allowed those

51:32

communication skills to become habits. And

51:35

our brains are predisposed to make these into habits.

51:37

That's one of the things that The Power of

51:40

Habit tells us is that particularly when it comes

51:42

to communication, because communication is a superpower for homo

51:44

sapiens, we have this ability

51:46

to take these skills around communication and

51:48

make them habits very, very easily. The

51:51

key is that we have to recognize which skills are

51:53

important and we have to practice them. And

51:56

when we practice them, we find that the

51:58

world opens up in ways.

52:01

You say that super communicating

52:03

or communicating is this

52:05

great skill of homo sapiens, which

52:07

sets us apart. And indeed, it's

52:09

what causes us to be a

52:11

social animal, to form societies. And

52:13

yet nowadays, our politics, our societies

52:15

are so torn apart and fraught.

52:17

What can we learn from your

52:19

book that could help our politics

52:21

now? Yeah, it's a great question.

52:23

And there's a chapter in the

52:25

book about this experiment that was

52:27

done, where they brought together gun

52:30

rights advocates and gun control

52:32

activists. And they wanted

52:35

to see if they could just have civil

52:37

conversations. And before the

52:39

conversation started, they taught them this one

52:41

particular skill known as looping for understanding.

52:43

That's really useful in conflict conversations and

52:45

has three steps. The first

52:47

step is ask a question, preferably a

52:49

deep question. The second step is once

52:52

that person has replied, repeat back in

52:54

your own words, what you heard them

52:56

say. And the third step is, ask

52:58

if you got it right. Now,

53:01

the reason why this is so powerful is because it

53:03

proves that we're listening. And you're

53:05

right, we are living in a world right now that seems polarized

53:08

and divided. And it seems like you go

53:10

online and people are just screaming at each

53:12

other rather than having conversations. But

53:15

there is a way around that,

53:18

which is that when we prove to each other that

53:20

we are listening, when we prove to each other that

53:22

we want to understand that my goal is not to

53:25

convince you that you're wrong. And I'm right. My goal

53:27

is to understand how you see the world and explain

53:29

to you how I see the world. That's

53:32

when all of a sudden, we can start making

53:34

those breakthroughs. And the thing is, we

53:36

have been doing this for centuries. If

53:39

you think about the United States and the

53:41

Constitutional Convention, this nation was

53:44

born in people who hated each other,

53:46

coming together for months and having these

53:48

fights and these arguments, but also listening

53:50

to each other, listening well enough that

53:52

they could write a constitution together. We

53:55

are at our best when

53:57

we want to communicate with each other, when we want

53:59

to. to communicate with people who believe different

54:01

things. And part of that

54:04

communication means not only explaining how I feel, but

54:06

asking questions and listening to how you feel.

54:09

And as long as we remember that, as

54:12

a nation and as a world, we will be

54:14

okay. Facebook and other social

54:16

media were invented, they said, to

54:18

connect us, to bring us connections.

54:21

And yet, I now feel

54:23

that maybe the problems we're having, that

54:26

social media isn't great at this notion

54:28

of connection. How do you think it's

54:30

effective? What you're written about? It's interesting

54:32

that that experiment I mentioned with the

54:34

gun control advocates and the gun rights

54:36

folks, they had a

54:38

great conversation face to face. And then they

54:40

went back and they continue the conversation on

54:42

Facebook. And within 45 minutes, people

54:44

were calling each other jack move it did not

54:46

see right and all fell apart once they went

54:48

online. And the reason why is

54:51

because oftentimes we forget

54:53

that different forms of communication have different

54:55

rules. In fact, when telephones

54:57

first became popular about 100 years ago,

55:00

there were all these studies that said, oh, people will never be

55:03

able to have real conversations on the phone because you can't see

55:05

each other. And what's interesting is

55:07

that at the time, they were right. If

55:09

you look at early transcripts of telephone conversations,

55:12

people use them like telegrams, they've sent each

55:14

other shopping lists and stock orders. But

55:17

of course, nowadays, we can have some of

55:19

our most meaningful conversations via the telephone. And

55:21

it's because we've learned the rules of telephones

55:23

without being aware of it. When we talk

55:26

on the phone, we over

55:28

enunciate our words a little bit, we put more

55:30

emotion into our voice, because we know that the

55:32

other person can't see us. These

55:34

are instincts that we've learned in using the

55:36

technology. And digital conversations

55:39

are similar. When I look at

55:41

my teenage kids, they have

55:43

no problem communicating online. In fact, they

55:45

have some of the most meaningful conversations

55:47

via text and emojis. But

55:50

for those of us who grew up in

55:52

a slightly different world, the

55:54

key is to remind ourselves that different forms

55:56

of communication have different rules. If I'm talking

55:58

to you on I can't assume

56:00

it's the same as if we're talking face to

56:02

face. If I'm sending you a text, that's different

56:04

from sending you an email. That's different from giving

56:06

you a call. And

56:09

when we remind ourselves that different forms of communication

56:11

have different rules, it becomes fairly

56:13

obvious what we ought to do in each

56:16

form of communication. We should be more

56:18

polite in emails. We should be less

56:20

sarcastic. We are

56:22

going to make it through this period. And

56:24

digital communication is with us to stay. And

56:27

it's going to get healthier and healthier and healthier. That

56:30

we think and we remind ourselves

56:33

that different forms of communication require different

56:35

skills and different rules. And

56:37

the more we observe and respect us. Charles

56:40

Doog, thank you so much for joining us.

56:42

Thank you for having me. And

56:46

finally tonight, a landmark more than 140

56:48

years in the making. Barcelona's

56:52

La Sagrada Familia, or

56:54

Holy Family, is one of

56:56

the world's great wonders despite never

56:58

actually being finished. A constant

57:00

work in progress. It was designed

57:03

by the legendary Catalan architect

57:05

Gaudi. But by the time of his

57:07

death in 1926, only

57:09

a quarter of the building had

57:12

been completed, slowed down by civil

57:14

war and all sorts of historic

57:16

bureaucratic building codes. Now, officials are

57:19

saying that in 2026, 144

57:22

years since construction began in 1882,

57:26

the Basilica will finally be completed.

57:29

I guess great things do come to those

57:31

who wait. That's it for now.

57:33

If you ever miss our show, you can find

57:35

the latest episodes shortly after it airs on our

57:37

podcast. Remember, you can always catch us

57:40

online on our website and all over social

57:42

media. Thank you for watching and goodbye

57:44

from London. Hi,

57:53

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