0:03

hello everyone and welcome to amanpour

0:05

here's what's coming up

0:08

i

0:08

i you to know how sad i am ,

0:11

giving the best job in

0:13

the world finally

0:14

a a

0:17

bite

0:19

the bullet but vows to stay on,

0:22

as i take anita, we look at the

0:24

british prime minister's tenure and the

0:26

utter chaos and dysfunction in

0:28

his way, then reaction

0:30

from finnish president salary

0:32

jaffa met with your son

0:34

and we get the latest on finland fit

0:36

to join nato

0:38

the fact that some historians simon

0:40

schama unconstitutional experts

0:42

catherine

0:43

and written looks towards the future

0:45

without forest

1:03

come to the program everyone i'm christian

1:05

i'm on for in london in the end it

1:07

took nearly sixty government resignations

1:10

more personal scandal than we can

1:12

count and a painful amount of drama

1:14

and dysfunction but the moment finally

1:16

came today when british prime minister

1:19

boris johnson announced he would step down

1:21

except he wants to stay on

1:23

until his successor is chosen which

1:25

could be months from now here's part

1:27

of his resignation with no out

1:29

the beach

1:32

that

1:32

new leader i say whether

1:35

you see maybe i say i will give you as much

1:37

support as i can and

1:40

to you the british public

1:44

i know that there will be many people who are

1:47

relief and quite

1:50

a few would also be disappointed the

1:52

i want you to know how sad i am the

1:55

beginning the best job the

1:57

world them the break

2:01

so you saw him gesturing to the

2:03

the people who were booing at the end of downing

2:05

street that's he painted his legacy

2:08

so in terms of getting brexit dumped

2:10

the kobe vaccine roll out and

2:13

britain's support for ukraine but

2:15

johnson's nearly three years in office

2:17

will no doubt be remembered by the tsunami

2:19

of self inflicted crises actually

2:22

breaking the law over the gate and

2:24

is many attempts to cling to power

2:27

the prime minister's position became untenable

2:29

this morning as even some of the

2:31

ministers he appointed just hours

2:33

earlier also quit in

2:36

the words of the british historian

2:37

we seldom in three hundred

2:40

years and sixty five prime minister's

2:42

know premiership has ever gone down

2:44

in flames like this one so

2:47

joining me now from

2:47

that we should to discuss his spectacular

2:50

downfall is alice to birds

2:52

he was a conservative member

2:53

parliament and he served on the board johnson

2:55

at the foreign office as about

2:58

welcome back to our program you know we've told

3:00

many times over many

3:02

of the johnson crises and

3:04

over the years he's been in office what

3:07

do you think was the final straw

3:09

that broke the camel's back

3:14

we haven't a christian and thank you very much

3:16

for asking me on again

3:18

i think the final straw or at

3:21

came over the weekend

3:22

when it became obvious that ministers

3:25

will be asked to give

3:27

an explanation all the

3:29

events surrounding the appointment

3:32

of a deputy chief with who had been

3:34

caught with a serious indiscretion

3:36

last week in london the

3:39

been appointed by the prime minister as

3:41

it's it would seem unwisely ministers

3:44

were asked to give an explanation of how this has

3:46

happened which turned out frankly

3:48

just to be not true that

3:51

their explanations got more and more

3:53

seeming ridiculous ultimately

3:55

to be contradicted by a very

3:58

rare intervention in bars

4:00

johnson's former cd

4:02

a permanent secretary at the foreign

4:04

and commonwealth office which clearly

4:06

refuted what number ten was saying

4:09

the ministers took the view that they have been

4:12

out the having to

4:14

follow a line on too many

4:16

occasions which turned out ultimately

4:19

to be untrue there is a pretty

4:21

was being affected and in

4:23

the words of the health secretary resigned

4:26

enough was enough

4:27

oh elsa he just mention how

4:29

this all came to light and i noted that you i see

4:31

so we're minister when boris johnson was foreign

4:34

that was the any of this in the atmosphere

4:36

wind when you with as it's the senior

4:39

civil servants

4:40

from the foreign ministry's who's divulge

4:42

the

4:43

well let's , clear

4:45

and is is that their their scales

4:48

it's difficulty and and and

4:51

problem so far as chances that

4:53

the bars on some have on some critical

4:55

style which is quite different

4:57

in a uk context is well known

5:00

and as in classic shakespearean tragedy

5:03

the things which matches the

5:05

a hero or also potentially the

5:07

things that can bring you down there

5:09

are some some attitude to life

5:12

into politics was a

5:14

much more relaxed in

5:16

interpretation of what he had to do in

5:18

office than many other politicians

5:21

would have given you at so one

5:23

it was foreign secretary at his

5:25

charisma ah he's as

5:27

in his personality the

5:29

determination to be to be funny

5:32

as to make people laugh to be

5:34

liked was very strong there

5:37

are places where it was inappropriate

5:39

and he was as ticked off

5:41

for making a speech about libya for

5:43

example i worried use their and

5:45

an unfortunate expression at

5:48

which related to some the tragedies of deaths

5:50

in libya at a party conference it

5:52

was a terrorist snus at about

5:55

his attitude ultimately

5:57

i think that was the undoing it was a

5:59

carelessness the lack of attention to detail

6:02

and it was a feeling that he could get away with

6:04

things that other people can get away with because

6:07

he always had and that sense

6:09

getting away with things was what made

6:11

him run the popular with people on the street

6:14

who passed and like all stuffy dry

6:16

politicians and rather liked this different

6:18

characters and they were right to like it

6:21

a a it it has professional flows

6:24

if you're not good on detail if

6:26

you think your version can stand any

6:28

scrutiny because really that's

6:30

what matters and nobody will burrow into it too

6:32

much and it will all be forgotten tomorrow

6:35

sooner or later you will find yourself

6:37

in a position when that is no longer true

6:40

so given all that you've just said

6:42

what do you make of his speech because honestly

6:44

it was quite incredible to hear that speed

6:47

there was just simply no apparent

6:50

self reflection or self recognition

6:53

of what actually had cause this

6:55

semi pretty much blamed everybody eats

6:57

and

6:58

you know talked about the heard which were

7:00

his own heard people who

7:01

he had appointed on

7:04

and he said them for the brakes as it

7:06

is i some kind of acts of god said

7:08

that this happened

7:10

yeah i think you've you've characterize

7:12

it very well it's it's not unusual

7:15

and it's not unfair for a

7:17

, minister was leading to set

7:19

out at this very early stage

7:22

the things which he he'll see believe

7:24

they have rights and he can point to the

7:26

vaccine added romance

7:28

in relation to kobe what's been done in ukraine

7:31

and and things like that but

7:33

you're right listening to it the main

7:35

thing that was missing was any sense

7:37

of recognition of what has

7:39

happened to him that have some

7:41

responsibility them himself

7:44

and i suspect over the next couple

7:47

of weeks as people do their analysis this

7:49

will come out again and again whatever

7:51

happened it was never his responsibility

7:54

it was never felt it was always

7:57

there was some other extraneous cause

7:59

of the blamed and if he got too close

8:01

to home it was dissembling an

8:04

erratic moving on and and that

8:06

was there in the speech i'm sure he will respect

8:08

to give a more considered a

8:10

approaches at some other stage

8:12

and talk about it's barely for me

8:15

that wearing that fault was that there was

8:17

no sense that he had done

8:19

anything wrong and ultimately that

8:21

was one of the things that counted very much against

8:24

him among special on college

8:26

what were you are very generous person to say you're sure

8:28

that some more reflection will come down the line i

8:30

wonder also about the facts are

8:32

of really

8:33

the on how long he's going to stay in of is

8:35

he clearly said i'm going

8:37

but not going or not yet and here

8:39

is his

8:40

you know that part of the speech and will talk about

8:42

it

8:46

he did not have the will

8:48

of , parliamentary conservative parties

8:51

that there should be a new leader of

8:53

that party that for a new privatise

8:56

i'd i'd agree with the great britain the tab

8:58

and of our back when said said

9:01

the process of choosing that new leader

9:03

said beginner and the timetable

9:06

will be announced next week and

9:08

i've of today pointed today tablet to serve

9:10

as i will as an annuity that is in place

9:14

the us about you know that has caused a whole

9:16

storm on social media within the party

9:18

and within our analysts and no less

9:21

of former prime

9:22

after a tory prime minister john

9:24

major us has written to brady

9:26

specifically say on

9:28

the man the boris johnson quotes are

9:30

this cannot stand he has to

9:32

leave now for the good of the country and

9:35

protects a potential

9:36

the good at a party

9:37

so what comes next in your view does

9:39

he stay time

9:42

i think it'll be very difficult thing

9:44

to say i entirely agree with

9:46

with john mason assessment and that of many

9:48

other experts in britain today and

9:51

it may be some self protection of boris johnson

9:54

the accepting that he's got to go but

9:56

singing on to some speights

9:59

out what i'm feeling that he's in charge

10:02

to the next two or three months overseeing

10:04

the process i don't believe that's

10:06

where the conservative party wants

10:08

to be i don't believe that's what parliament would

10:10

accept he has not lost his

10:12

role because of some policy disputes

10:14

and com os second best in

10:17

a contest overlap you've

10:19

lost it because colleagues have lost their

10:21

faith immutability tell

10:23

the truth and he said in his integrity

10:25

and that's what they have said in their messages

10:28

and in that notes of resignation and then

10:30

that speeches now it seems

10:32

to me not quotable in

10:34

that position he could then command

10:36

any authority because if

10:38

he's caretaker prime minister he still

10:40

could he still prime minister he would still

10:43

have to take life or death decisions he

10:45

would still be the person who would have to makes the

10:47

ultimate decision in relation to or

10:49

any sort of hostile action taken against the united

10:51

kingdom he's a personal would have to tell

10:54

the paper written what to do in

10:56

a difficult circumstances if they were

10:58

called upon to make said the sacrifices he

11:00

doesn't have the credibility to do that i

11:03

think it's a misjudgment on his part what i would

11:05

expect that happens is that will be further

11:07

reflection in the civil service

11:09

and amongst parliamentarians he and

11:12

his cabinet and they will say you can't

11:14

do this we need an interim prime minister

11:17

at at one who is not better stands

11:19

leadership to oversee this thank you

11:21

bar is the offer but it's just not

11:23

going to work i'm not going to be a at not

11:25

going to be credible

11:26

well this new cabinet who he touted and

11:28

it appears that he's busy are a point

11:30

he has released a letter basically

11:33

saying the johnson will not make

11:35

any major

11:36

policy or physical changes before

11:38

he goes so

11:39

so that addresses some of what you said

11:41

they'll people do not want arm

11:44

apparently his own party

11:46

the public by the way you know seven and

11:48

ten bridge

11:48

the adults don't want him where he is

11:50

his popularity has sunk within his own party

11:53

and is losing local election

11:56

it is not good enough

11:58

to say i'll say i i

12:00

won't make any major guidance as

12:02

the as you know better than many

12:05

others a a a in

12:07

in your journalistic field is the four o'clock

12:09

in the morning phone call kill

12:11

the person who would get there is something

12:14

happened then where is that his authority

12:16

you can't say as prime minister i'll do

12:18

fifty percent of the job and i went to the difficult

12:21

stuff that that can't be done you're under

12:23

prime minister you're not a my senses

12:25

that much of this will be

12:27

attracted to him on a way

12:29

of deflecting some of the pain of

12:32

losing the job and knowing somewhere

12:34

inside use that you've been responsible

12:36

for this and that must be a terrible feeling

12:39

in the reflection of it in this

12:41

way i don't think will work and

12:43

those around him and the british a

12:46

constitution as reflected in senior civil

12:48

servants who have ended in a very important

12:50

role to play somebody somewhere is gotta

12:52

say promise that this doesn't doesn't

12:54

work ultimately is the cabinet decide

12:57

not to serve him i'd say

12:59

we we will just not sit round your cabinet table

13:01

then as we saw last night ultimately

13:04

that will decide it's i think they got to be very

13:06

clear that rascal to happen i

13:08

don't think the public of britain will wear this

13:10

and i didn't think his opponents in palm the

13:12

the the and the labour party

13:14

another opponents eight same i'm left

13:17

with and said he thought he get away with this as

13:19

a hammer way of this day after day simply

13:22

cannot see it being a worthwhile range

13:24

and just some mention the

13:26

the party are a quick snap

13:28

poll has been done with shows the

13:30

kids dharma would beat every single

13:32

one of those who's been mooted as the next potential

13:35

party leader in an election if it

13:37

was held now except for rishi

13:40

soon i see and the chancellor

13:42

who along with such said his job it's

13:45

fruit precipitated this latest exodus

13:47

i'm chaos you about foreign policy obviously

13:49

it's present it has issued a statement

13:52

reiterating america's close cooperation

13:54

and friendships with britain

13:57

all we've heard from the former us abreast

13:59

the negotiator michel barnier that they

14:02

hope that there the a more constructive

14:04

post boris johnson relationship

14:07

ah with the next uk

14:09

premiere even if is this a conservative

14:12

premise and premier who believes in breaks

14:14

i'm we've also heard from other

14:16

know to me as alinsky and i

14:17

i say that because boris johnson

14:20

clung to his support

14:22

for

14:22

crane as one of the reasons to stay

14:24

and pass basically what he did was

14:26

call him a good friend say that he was

14:28

saddened

14:29

the lead to see boris johnson go

14:31

said to reiterate that he felt

14:34

the support from britain will

14:36

continue to just tell us how that

14:38

works on the international stage the foreign

14:40

policy

14:44

they will be in a fairly changed

14:46

and as president lewinsky

14:48

is right to i had found it

14:50

boris johnson's friend but if you notice

14:52

statements and while thanking him

14:55

he recognizes that it's the state to save

14:57

relationship that's important and

14:59

the world has been done by ben wallace

15:02

the defense secretary who's always said

15:04

the movie one of the candidates to go forward

15:06

and others as makes

15:08

, very clear that not relationship will go on

15:11

without boris johnson and

15:13

as far as the other relationships are concerned the

15:16

united states again it can be

15:18

absolutely certain that the relationship

15:21

a friendship between the two countries

15:23

will be just the solid no matter who is that

15:26

said the in the past the united kingdom and

15:29

as far as the and emphasize

15:31

the european situations consents that's

15:33

more delicate that a says the party will

15:35

be thinking very carefully who they want

15:37

to lead my son

15:40

at the at the leader the conservative party

15:43

will have endorsed frets it in one

15:45

way or another even if they did not necessary

15:47

but for the first place but it's absolutely

15:50

certain that that's where the country want someone

15:52

to be but someone who is at

15:54

more and more ready to

15:57

cut a deal wants to see a future

15:59

with european the union well the job

16:01

i'm leaving has been gun is not problems

16:03

by a good relationship in a good working relationship

16:06

not threatened by concessions that will

16:08

be welcome to the european union's it's a question

16:11

of whether a made that debate

16:13

in the conservative party that view

16:15

will hold sway when there are others in

16:17

the conservative party was still want the

16:19

hardest attitudes been displayed

16:22

towards the european union that will be

16:24

one of three cutting edge issues that

16:26

we will see in the debate is that was to

16:28

become the next week

16:30

oh interesting alice about thank you so much for

16:32

joining us

16:36

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17:06

unless

17:08

go now to downing street for more from correspondent

17:10

nick robert

17:11

and nick a you know we talked about

17:13

and you just put out is to birds say it is

17:15

pretty much untenable for him to

17:17

on for these three months or however

17:20

many before there's a leadership call com

17:22

a conference and contests are you

17:24

hearing and picking up any more on that

17:27

not the point you raise our about

17:29

was how what came out of that very very short

17:31

cabinet session gets to exactly

17:33

that that that this number ten

17:35

is still trying to frame this as boris

17:38

johnson a safe pair of hands no

17:40

change , policies no change to

17:42

direction of the government no significant

17:45

shift everything that defense mandated

17:47

by the public is what apply to deliver on so

17:49

the message coming from that cabinet

17:51

meeting really frames it around leave

17:54

boris johnson and office for longer as

17:56

caretaker prime minister has

17:58

also strike as and and when it

18:00

read out which

18:02

, gets to the sort of

18:05

of boris johnson the person the character

18:07

and the nature of how ten downing

18:10

street is trying to trying the

18:12

situation at the moment saying that they were

18:14

tribune paid her boris johnson by cabinet

18:17

members for everything that his a t that

18:19

it you know the high points of his career what

18:21

were mentioned as all of as

18:23

seems sort of out of

18:25

context from what you would normally have

18:27

for my cabinets essence but i think

18:29

one of the other pieces of information to drop in

18:31

the last half an hour or so that

18:34

dominic raab the deputy prime minister

18:36

has said that he has not interested

18:39

in running for the leadership of

18:41

the conservative party's that's interesting

18:44

because it clears the way potentially for

18:46

him to become caretaker prime

18:48

minister five and mechanism as i'm

18:50

quite clear but that's an

18:52

indication that he

18:55

is setting himself aside and to

18:57

be a potential say they her of hands

19:00

to take over from boris johnson

19:01

so you were talking about the legacy and how

19:04

these cabinet members were burnishing it let us give

19:06

boris johnson a few seconds to tout

19:08

his own legacy and lets plays

19:09

part of his resignation speech

19:13

the reason i have fought so hard

19:16

in the last few days to continue to

19:18

deliver that mandate in person was

19:20

not just because i wanted to do

19:23

so that because i felt it was

19:25

my job my duty

19:28

my obligation to you to

19:30

continue to do what we promised the

19:32

twenty nineteen and of course

19:34

i'm immensely proud of the

19:36

achievements of this government's from getting

19:38

breast cancer settling our relations or

19:41

with the codes goods for over half

19:43

a century

19:44

reclaiming

19:45

the power for this country can make

19:48

it so laws in parliament's guess

19:50

we just saw through the pandemic delivering

19:53

the fastest vaccine realized in europe

19:55

the fastest exit from lockdown

19:58

and the last few

20:00

leading the west in standing up to pigeons

20:02

aggression in ukraine

20:05

sony there's a lot in there but what really

20:07

matters to the british people is this terrible

20:10

cost of living crisis that's going

20:12

on around the world as well

20:14

and that's just read what the economist or said

20:16

britain now has the highest inflation

20:18

rate in the g seven and is hit

20:21

a forty year heights and the gdp

20:23

growth in the decade leading up to

20:25

the global financial crisis on

20:27

is is is really bad

20:29

yeah in britain is the slowest growth i'm

20:31

of the g seven into prediction

20:34

for twenty twenty three so what

20:36

really is his agassi

20:39

ah but what part of it it of course is going to

20:41

be breaks it that's what he would point to and there

20:43

will be economists who point to the figures as you've

20:45

just spoken about that and say yes let's

20:47

compare the uk now to our were

20:49

france's were germany as were italy as

20:51

all members of the g seven that who's

20:54

economies are not doing a sadly

20:56

or projects who to do as badly as the uk

20:58

and those economists may well make the

21:00

planes that were britain still within the european

21:03

union it wouldn't be suffering in this case

21:05

so there will be for boris johnson this

21:07

legacy of delivering for the hardliners in his

21:09

party's rec said that will be for the rest

21:11

the country a legacy perhaps of a poorer

21:14

and weaker economy and the chances

21:16

of that being course corrected

21:19

by a new prime minister seem

21:21

unlikely partly because has taken

21:23

the party so far to the right he's

21:25

sort of didn't censor the hardline ah

21:28

rights as a party the rule hardline pro

21:30

breaks it is to win the urge to

21:32

become prime minister and it certainly seems

21:34

listening to some of those who who

21:37

who are putting their names in the ring to become prime

21:39

minister again they would do

21:41

the same thing they would reach to the rights

21:43

of the parties for support so

21:46

where we hear from the iris two shots at a me

21:48

whole martin said he hopes that

21:50

urge the uk is hope they will will

21:52

deal with a northern ireland protocols in a

21:54

soft a way that

21:57

seems unlikely so speaking to the economy

22:00

going forward currently the

22:02

uk is on a trajectory

22:04

for a trade war potential trade war with

22:06

the european union that would be another

22:08

way the economy with suffer if a prime

22:10

minister picks up and runs were boris johnson

22:13

leaves off right right right is also

22:15

serious nick robinson thank you so much

22:17

and of course what he was referring to as well as that's

22:19

in a good friday agreement with the united states

22:22

does not want to see interfered with

22:24

and that's all wrapped up in boris johnson

22:26

slouching of the northern ireland protocol

22:28

the reactions is sending departure

22:30

is trickling in the european

22:32

unions former chief breaks and negotiators

22:34

i sense tweeted that it marks the start

22:37

of a more constructive relationship

22:39

between the edu in the uk and again

22:41

we mentioned the irish prime minister who

22:43

called on the post boris government to

22:45

pull back from unilateral action

22:48

which threatens northern ireland's us

22:50

back good friday peace accords now the

22:52

kremlin spokesman dmitry peskov

22:54

simply said mr johnson doesn't

22:56

like us very much we don't like him

22:58

either until recently the

23:00

finish president sally nice us

23:02

was the western leader with that's the

23:04

closest relationship with president food

23:06

him but that changed when putting

23:09

declared unprovoked war on

23:10

crane and now that

23:12

finland is poised to join nato

23:14

relations are said to i'm even frost

23:16

yet i started by asking present

23:18

any still

23:19

what he made

23:20

johnson stormy exit

23:24

wherever sally nice so welcome back

23:26

to

23:26

program thank you very much

23:28

have you joined us it just so happens

23:30

on a politically or tempestuous

23:33

day here in the uk and for

23:35

one of your fellow european while

23:37

used to be european leaders are

23:40

boris johnson has had to resign can

23:42

i just ask you from a continental point

23:44

of view and i guess a nato point

23:46

of view what you what's your reaction

23:49

to the resignation of the

23:50

prime minister

23:52

i'm a bit confused

23:56

i guess so it's a news for

23:58

everybody but on the

23:59

there hand to taking notice to

24:02

the fact that the uk

24:04

sir very

24:06

very old to democracy things

24:09

go further also

24:11

after prime minister johnson

24:15

so i am not to the

24:18

specifically , about

24:22

about example how

24:25

our relations sir are developing

24:27

and of course and boris johnson has

24:29

said over and again that he

24:31

has led the western defensive

24:34

ukraine and stood up for

24:36

president zaleski and ukrainians rights

24:38

under this unprovoked russian was

24:41

this is what president of the lenski

24:43

said about boris johnson in an interview

24:45

with cnn today

24:47

shot this will johnson was doing

24:49

for ukraine he was a true friend

24:51

of ukraine he totally supported ukraine

24:54

and , uk it's on the right side of history

24:57

i'm sure the policy towards ukraine of the

24:59

uk will not be changing

25:03

will i do you agree with the president

25:06

to lenski that

25:09

neither i believe that uk

25:11

policy will somehow and

25:14

he changed thought turn

25:16

yes as ,

25:18

minister turn somehow so done

25:20

a a ,

25:23

when supporting ukraine

25:25

he has been very supportive with us or

25:28

so with our nato application

25:32

then i ask you

25:34

in light of your nato application

25:36

and that you are now going to essentially

25:39

join the defensive of ukraine's

25:41

what do you make what is your assessment

25:44

of the russian gains in the donbass

25:47

and

25:48

fair point the you see

25:50

any negotiations can take place

25:53

at the moment it seems that the

25:56

we have to face the

25:58

situation the

26:01

it , that russia is doing some

26:03

progress see no dumper syria

26:06

syria ten in

26:08

a way this he said very

26:12

difficult situation there because

26:14

it's , obvious data to lenski

26:17

ukraine ukraine won't

26:19

give won't they will fight

26:22

and on the other hand to it is

26:24

very difficult to get receives out

26:27

of the area they are already

26:29

in so i

26:32

think that they're all the possibilities

26:35

of for trying to find

26:37

some kind of solution at

26:39

, have to rely now on president

26:42

sellers kisser opinion

26:44

he's been to decide when

26:47

negotiation suit start

26:49

spots on the other hand let's

26:51

not forget that he has been on tv

26:54

for example example dismal

26:56

i discussed with him several times

26:59

he has always been it

27:02

advocating for face

27:06

to face meeting with their

27:08

president putin and here sometimes

27:10

asked me to delay the this

27:12

week or , tool

27:15

to president booting as i

27:17

did it sir last time that

27:19

that on on know much

27:22

monday the invasion

27:25

had already begun thoughts

27:27

are unfortunately it seems that these

27:30

kind of face to these doesn't seem to

27:33

to president booty

27:34

why didn't put in tell you he would not meet

27:37

with the landscapes and you know you've

27:39

been known a little bit as a as

27:41

a as the

27:42

a whisper a so to speak the food and with

27:44

breast you've had a lot of talks with

27:46

them over the years but i notice you say

27:48

you have not spoken to him since march

27:51

sought the off to the beginning of this fourth

27:54

have your relations with him got

27:56

cold do not talk anymore

27:59

you know

27:59

actually i do my last to

28:02

discuss and within just the

28:05

some six weeks ago i

28:08

wanted to give him a

28:10

clear information that now we

28:12

are going to leave our application

28:14

to nato i

28:16

, see cause i

28:18

just don't want to sneak

28:21

away from the corner and

28:24

to his comments or sir very clear

28:26

you're making clear you're well

28:29

i don't agree with that

28:31

so talk us through then because

28:33

he also said that his response was calm

28:36

but we've also heard the kremlin spokesperson

28:38

say will have to reevaluate

28:40

our security needs in light

28:43

of finland and sweden

28:45

joining nato

28:47

what do you think they will do if anything

28:49

first of all i

28:52

want to point out that the we

28:55

see is he learnt we are maximizing

28:57

our security but

28:59

nuts daddy's not away

29:02

from anybody is

29:04

noted zero game zero

29:08

, game the security

29:10

if we increase our our

29:13

it's a is said shawnee was

29:15

easy for us but it's not away

29:17

from away so about

29:20

they are now saying he said

29:22

that's it they are following

29:26

what see lot actually is

29:28

doing and to what kind of facts

29:31

and military equipment so tubes

29:34

are located in finland and

29:37

they will located is a clear response

29:40

and i wish a

29:42

could imagine the said doubling

29:45

wish response button so

29:48

far we haven't seen any movement

29:51

to any direction

29:53

what do you think what i'm going asked

29:55

us president of finland both you

29:57

and sweden have very sophisticated

30:00

highly trained and well integrated

30:02

ministries and you've had sort of

30:04

workings with other international military

30:06

even when you are not members of nato what

30:09

do you think you bring to the table

30:11

in ukraine's and generally

30:14

as a new member of nato

30:16

yes i'm actually

30:18

, happy in a a with

30:20

the nato v the us

30:23

so we the we a long

30:25

period to long period

30:28

and to i would say and

30:30

to our well as ability

30:33

to go at the rate ability on go sectors

30:36

sir and by tie

30:39

what we prison system

30:41

ukraine also

30:44

sweden and finland we are

30:47

getting aid not only

30:50

human for humanity

30:55

he used to do since it

30:57

but also military

30:59

aid and it's

31:01

a lot we have now made

31:03

just our sevens package

31:07

so eight which consists

31:09

of us are from or

31:12

so from and military

31:15

equipment then

31:18

to nato ideally

31:22

go to pizza very

31:25

, phrase sent sent

31:27

saying that serve in to not be

31:29

do not ask only

31:32

watson a to can do for us

31:34

but also what we can do for

31:36

do and what we can

31:39

do is can bringing am

31:42

proportionally if you take notice

31:44

to you own size the

31:46

very very as his answer as

31:49

army with us and

31:52

tear his just

31:54

want to remind you that to the wifi

31:57

is we have never forgotten the

32:00

history we have all the time

32:03

during all those decades

32:05

after world war two also

32:08

in taken care very in

32:13

the phone to of our security

32:15

be helpful and scrapes and we our for

32:18

example largest artillery

32:20

and europe everything like that

32:22

you are paraphrasing their john as kennedy's

32:25

famous comment or during his ah

32:27

his inauguration and

32:30

i just want to ask you

32:31

do you did you ever think

32:34

in your lifetime and certainly as president

32:36

of your nation said you would witness

32:39

your historically neutral country

32:41

with public opinion was not in favor

32:43

of joining nato until just recently

32:46

did you ever think you'd what is this monumental

32:48

shift

32:49

ed noted not

32:52

these rapidly as

32:54

diverse no doubt that to then we

32:56

are developing two words that direction

32:59

all the time but maybe time was expecting

33:01

more than that

33:03

as more member of the european union

33:07

and and noticing

33:09

that sir and does an

33:11

ongoing discussion between nato

33:13

and to european union

33:16

own defense and security

33:18

issues so my estimation

33:21

was that through

33:23

that process little by

33:25

little we actually

33:27

become much as as

33:29

a member in nature to or

33:33

that the european union and nato

33:35

are so close to each other

33:38

that there was no difference anymore in

33:40

securities antitheses use

33:42

that's what i would was seeking

33:46

bottom what happened now

33:48

ah i said that their well

33:52

for us and sir have to ask themselves

33:55

why this happened and

33:57

to they will

33:59

the reasons to to change

34:03

the history

34:05

and be tricky as you pointed out i mean russia

34:07

has shown that it was willing to unprovoked

34:11

the invade and neighbor ukraine's and

34:13

let's not forget the you have and eight

34:15

hundred and fifty plus miles border

34:18

with russia i you are also a neighbor

34:21

and that that concentrated

34:23

the minds of your of your people

34:25

and your population i guess they suddenly realized

34:27

wow one day it might

34:29

indeed happened to us

34:32

and yes i did actually

34:34

the first moment was when it

34:37

went booties said data it's

34:40

end of nato enlargement

34:43

because , far we had been seeking

34:45

and saying to others

34:48

at that to from our

34:50

own when we sweden

34:54

we are up militarily on

34:56

aligned and is

34:59

that it could even stabilize

35:02

, sea area but after

35:05

russia said that's it no more

35:07

enlargement at we can't

35:10

anymore safe that

35:14

well this is our own will know

35:16

everybody would , or

35:19

at least think that when you can't do

35:21

anything else so that was in

35:23

a way of wake up up then

35:25

when are we are that

35:28

in russia that said willing

35:31

to attack

35:34

the neighbor the , and country

35:37

and trying to invade it it

35:39

that was not a very good example for

35:42

another neighbor and neighbor

35:45

that's , so that's

35:48

hard to the

35:50

lot of the impact on people's minds

35:53

and at the entire add to say that

35:55

it was an ordinary finnish

35:58

people who changed the

36:00

history

36:01

changing their minds it

36:03

seemed a new sli surely as

36:06

politicians keep they are also

36:08

human beings they changed

36:11

their mind for the same reasons

36:13

and are you convinced

36:15

that use your path to actually

36:18

joining is going to be the mood

36:20

we saw obstacles that turkey threw

36:22

up in your in your way you

36:25

know how difficult was it to get

36:27

turkey and i know you were in the room and the swedish

36:29

prime minister was in the roman and the and the nato

36:31

secretary general along with the turkish

36:33

president

36:35

you sure i'm convinced that you didn't

36:37

have to sell out on any of your values

36:40

the get turkish approval to

36:42

lift it's veto

36:43

no no i i'm absolutely

36:46

sure because actually

36:48

what we were promised down

36:51

, elements someone is set at

36:54

legislation at

36:57

the criminal legislation

36:59

and ten we have just

37:02

renewed our legislation but

37:04

we were we

37:07

could well sign a paper where

37:09

it is said that if according

37:13

to nato standards there

37:15

are needs to further

37:17

develop legislation reagan reagan

37:20

very good do it as a nato

37:23

member surely within follow

37:25

and nato standards and the other

37:27

amenities dealing

37:30

with deportations and

37:32

, we promised to follow the

37:35

fare has european convention

37:38

, it's said we have followed

37:40

it's so far it's not difficult

37:43

to total

37:45

in the future too

37:46

so these

37:49

are the made promises steps you

37:51

have made

37:52

then other words you

37:53

not agree to followed turkey's

37:55

the guy as in terms of that but you

37:58

and nato regulations

38:00

the in in the meantime it

38:02

a period of time

38:03

before you actually are full

38:05

the members do you fear

38:07

any kind of

38:09

gray zone time period

38:11

where you might be in danger from

38:13

russia

38:14

and have you been given guaranteed

38:18

this gray zone waiting period

38:20

you will have your security

38:22

guaranteed by other nato nations

38:25

his i want to get back

38:27

to turkey on to their opinion

38:29

of these stamps guess they

38:32

got through their message nasa

38:35

and

38:36

they have a suit severe

38:39

terrorists a terroristic

38:41

threats and to they got

38:43

their message through an

38:46

alternate oh

38:48

the only two countries and

38:50

, to lisa intermediate

38:53

said time ill

38:56

in a very beginning we were thinking

38:59

that that might be possible that we've

39:01

face as some

39:03

talent she's even threats so

39:06

far nothing has happened to and tear

39:09

if we can counter on

39:11

water are some signs saying that

39:13

they will kinda response what

39:15

ever an extra is

39:18

happening is happening and i mean as

39:21

new troops or or

39:23

, to around the borderline

39:26

that they will keep then said response

39:30

so so that's

39:32

a reliable a reliable

39:35

taxa i don't see any

39:38

major data here because

39:40

so it's not so the

39:43

man who well

39:45

i do is to maximize

39:48

finisher security it's

39:50

which is not away from anybody

39:53

darling minister president of finland sankyo

39:55

very

39:56

for joining

39:57

thank you so very much thank

39:59

you

40:01

and ukrainians flag

40:03

flies again above snake island in the

40:05

black sea

40:05

a week after russian forces withdrew

40:08

the island of course became symbol of ukrainian

40:10

resistance since define the russian

40:13

worship in the early days of the invasion

40:19

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40:50

hello again boris johnson support of ukraine

40:52

has been warmly welcome

40:54

there for that will continue no matter

40:56

who is prime minister his term

40:58

is one of the shortest in british history since

41:00

nineteen hundreds and the question of whether

41:02

of whether legitimacy to stay on as caretaker

41:05

prime minister remains i'm joined

41:07

now by historians simon schama

41:09

and can

41:09

when hadn't of the institute for

41:11

government think tanks

41:13

i'm both of you welcome to the programs

41:15

catherine since you're here in the uk

41:17

and dealing with and being on

41:19

the about the process by which

41:21

a new you know

41:22

the prime minister will be selected and what's

41:25

going on so i first saw by asking you

41:28

can you hang on is there a process

41:30

whereby the government sued and

41:32

can speed this up

41:36

there is a way for them to see this up

41:38

the rules that surrounds how a new

41:40

conservative leaders are is selected

41:43

off know really only

41:45

to the people who are in charge of those rules

41:47

and i a new theme of them

41:49

a being elected on monday and they can

41:51

basically change the rules

41:54

for how they wanted to be as i can

41:56

expedite

41:59

though is that say parliament rises

42:02

on the twenty first of salei and if i haven't

42:05

finished the process of mps deciding

42:08

who they want and who they might want to put for

42:10

the why the conservative policy then

42:12

we might have to wait for we olson said

42:14

as said real emphasis food and

42:17

on and on to make sure that this process

42:19

is much quicker and that may mean that

42:21

they need to change the rules

42:23

simon schama you're in the united

42:25

states and obviously you follow this

42:27

really closely it's i just

42:29

received from the historians perspective

42:31

you heard what anthony silva said that not

42:33

in three hundred years and fifty five

42:35

prime ministers as such a the

42:37

spectacular for happens

42:40

that our for us historic

42:42

the how how does is sit with you this

42:46

hundred years it's been a unique carnival

42:49

relay in , the temptation

42:51

is to cut of troll through the history books

42:53

define that kind of mistake comparison

42:56

but i think is quite fight to previous

42:58

a brilliant be defeated ah this occasion

43:01

what you can say is that they've been

43:03

outsize very very

43:07

of brilliantly colors personality

43:09

prime minister's before we think of la palma

43:11

studs who had a had

43:15

unsavory private life or

43:17

lloyd george do so and

43:20

so on but it's very difficult

43:22

to actually think of a moment

43:25

where the government itself sell where was polls

43:27

were actually you had to real

43:30

dangers yes desire which we seem

43:33

not not entirely ourselves one

43:35

was that the government simply cease

43:38

to function properly at properly at

43:40

of a cascade of several different

43:43

crises with others really

43:45

round the corner and the other really

43:47

was slightly more generally sinister

43:49

that is catherine thinks this is the case

43:51

as well worth were boris johnson

43:53

towards the end of the day yesterday sausage

43:55

talk about having a direct mandate from

43:58

the fourteen million people as those

43:59

for him we seem to be edging towards

44:02

a much more presidential system

44:04

or is unjustly truth that the he's

44:07

you , that some germs person

44:10

that pussy was a major factor in the tories

44:12

landslide victory of two thousand and nineteen

44:15

but really voters in the united kingdom

44:17

vote for a posse it's not a presidential

44:20

system it's a parliamentary representational

44:23

system and sense

44:25

in which he might simply lean on

44:27

this kind of charismatic

44:31

approach in order perhaps to

44:33

call perhaps to election or just really

44:35

grosses see some constantly

44:38

reconstructs us a talbot us

44:40

and the thousand members seem to be crumbling before

44:42

our eyes others dumbass genuinely

44:44

dangerous a thing

44:46

so so blessed for that you catherine

44:48

did you agree with that and is

44:50

there any way that his view of

44:52

his mandate

44:53

which is very presidential and not parliamentary

44:55

because that's all about deposits my

44:58

be you know might be something that the

45:01

takes hold

45:04

yeah i mean that definitely was a feeling

45:06

last night of us a shock rarely

45:08

when and despite his own cabinet

45:11

or cabinets it only constructed over

45:13

that previous twenty four hours with some new

45:15

appointment with still you know

45:18

he was still respecting their

45:20

view that he needed to set sound and and

45:22

there was a lot of coffee of how far with his

45:24

hate that i think the thing to remember

45:26

is i mean boris johnson the one who says

45:28

we remembered as the people's prime minister

45:31

a many people talk about the idea of populism

45:33

wolfie a very populous prime

45:35

minister willing suspicious to the that for the edge

45:38

the actual what a local

45:40

canadian prime minister

45:42

that he lives as power outage

45:45

hero his tenure ship and we saw that low

45:47

for the last forty eight hours hussein

45:50

a chaotic approach to handling

45:52

of crises a chaotic opposed to policymaking

45:55

and a chaotic opposed to the stop to

45:57

the government his own number thin the

45:59

frequently

45:59

in chaos i'm and that kind

46:02

of panamanian that he thought

46:04

is actually voted for him to pull his

46:06

own in the efficacy fall through the whole the whole

46:09

three or four hundred over they

46:11

want

46:11

oh popular one forgotten

46:14

about caught the government little bit from within

46:17

and even always been in know

46:19

that you know the

46:20

the hope of the media and amazon

46:22

selling something frustrated he kept

46:24

saying i just want to get on and deliver of hard

46:27

all these noises also it's extraordinary

46:29

that he was the one so often responsible

46:31

for creating it i

46:33

you measure that would

46:34

popular since i i want to us

46:37

let me just off the question then you can you can

46:39

continue simon

46:40

the whole idea of populism

46:42

right i had an email shortly

46:44

before we went on air to say that boris's

46:46

fools shows the

46:48

gradual dissolution

46:50

of the populace enterprise

46:52

the we had from breaks it which he started

46:55

arm and then it went on

46:56

america with trump's trump's gone

46:59

far as is gone

47:00

and there are many european

47:02

countries which had populace governments

47:04

which no longer do i mean they're obviously

47:06

outliers was still do

47:08

what do you make of that simon is this a moment

47:10

where the

47:10

the or populism

47:12

in it on the decline

47:16

no i i wish cristiane i

47:18

really do but i think that's as a little

47:20

complacent viktor orban says he

47:22

has any no sign of going anywhere at all

47:24

put him in his way immensely

47:26

you know the recent the comparison with a kind of sizing

47:29

rebuffs muslim democracy to compare hussein's

47:31

populist appeal but the combination of militant

47:34

nationalist aggression and

47:37

the demonization of any opposition

47:39

the somehow traces of the people which is the

47:41

stock in trade of populist rhetoric

47:43

no idea i don't think it's i just think is going

47:46

away as holes and you're absolutely

47:48

right persevered sixty you cristiane

47:50

see this as a country transatlantic phenomenon

47:53

and this is why i'll tell your wife for

47:55

better or worse one of the things as corrupting

47:57

democracy and make it very difficult

47:59

to

47:59

calvin golf and democratically

48:02

is that governments is kind of dull and

48:04

populist campaigning i

48:06

was boris johnson was supremely

48:08

good he was as good as

48:10

a rhetorical campaign us as

48:12

he was crap was actually presiding over

48:15

of governments and while politics

48:17

becomes more more branch from entertainment's

48:20

the temptation to act as a disruptor

48:23

steve bannon favorite words

48:25

to actually make a kind of explosive

48:28

splash at the expense of

48:30

thinking at all how you gaza

48:32

in an age of multiplying

48:34

cascading crisis pandemic

48:36

crisis economic crisis phone

48:38

policy a military crisis migration

48:41

crisis climate crisis all

48:43

these things together needs a

48:45

kind of substantive com

48:47

plans tassel strategic

48:50

working through these very complicated

48:52

this is bubble gets the headlines

48:55

what's gets you know the got swirling

48:58

on the hatred the glee

49:00

of hatred pouring out is

49:02

the opposite is the opposite says kind

49:04

of vaporous dots

49:06

renting adrenalin drizzling

49:09

pumping populism and it's day

49:11

is almost certainly not numbers what

49:13

britain faces now of course or a series

49:16

of only is you know hard

49:18

core problem said the issue for

49:20

a cat safe of government is

49:22

that cannot afford to leave

49:24

you know that kind of charismatic

49:26

populist in she's in charge

49:29

or will the fact he's still going to be in

49:31

downing street's just make the

49:33

sinkhole more more impossible

49:36

to escape when you should be doing day

49:38

to day careful prudent

49:40

government

49:41

so so catherine that is really

49:43

legitimate question because many

49:45

have has said that one of the

49:48

crises is because of the base

49:50

you know the base has made up his cabinet his

49:52

government and that in order to have

49:54

the kind of governance

49:56

they clearly was so lacking under boris

49:58

johnson i'm not

49:59

the campaign and the adrenaline riven

50:02

populism that i'm that simon they us

50:04

you need to have a big tent party do

50:06

you think that there's any hope said

50:09

this will happen because all the people

50:11

around boris johnson and five all the people have been

50:13

mentioned by saying

50:14

as potential replacement that all

50:16

hard line breaks for those who would chosen

50:19

except for maybe one or two who

50:21

had chosen precisely for

50:23

their breaks it ideology and not for their experience

50:26

in in

50:26

running anything or governing anything

50:30

the i think i've been there quite a lot of

50:32

people who have seen in government for a period

50:34

of time now having thoughts about potential

50:36

candidates and i mean that the

50:38

language around breaks it has moved on pretty much

50:40

any one he's been embarrassing since governments

50:42

have the lawsuit is is fire their

50:45

very nature abraxas here and

50:47

is the breakfast air of the kinds that you

50:49

know close to the deal that

50:51

that forest hills and got that that said they are recognizing

50:54

that there are problems in that i think actually

50:57

that's gonna be a part of it but it's gonna be other

50:59

receipts the are going to split the conservative

51:01

policy further and that things

51:03

like free markets fraught free markets

51:06

it's about in , have

51:08

loads hot hot

51:10

as limited sending us government vs

51:13

ceiling with the cost of living ceiling

51:15

with rising energy prices inflation

51:18

you know what is the right economic systems

51:20

moody seeing the sign says that with as

51:22

we see soon acts departs a

51:24

lesser and then this that of it

51:26

is suggestions coming in from the new

51:28

song slender themes the hallway so there's

51:31

gonna be a lot of lot about

51:34

thought to the spectacle of financing thing if

51:36

i'm have been saying for me you know

51:38

everyone had me you cory civil

51:40

war if for assaulting guys the city's

51:43

gonna happen anyway because you

51:45

all things that we've seen it inside

51:47

government with it's own fluff and a prime

51:50

minister often also often what happens

51:52

he was seeing it with that fences pushing

51:54

against the prime minister saying he's on the wrong

51:56

decision on this en masse and all

51:58

of them having

51:59

read

51:59

when views on what he says

52:02

a suffix s and that's not going to change

52:04

the only thing at the moment that

52:06

is finding the conservative party together and this is

52:08

a favor that boris johnson hops have some for them

52:11

in the last forty eight hours is

52:13

that so many of them want him gone

52:15

and want some think that it is different to

52:18

that the fact that even in a pretty

52:20

but house and

52:22

, current cabinet ministers coming

52:24

out and sex loyalists people chosen

52:27

got with people who are backbenches

52:29

who supported him for years

52:31

coming and saying enough is enough

52:34

that kind of crisis kind of thing that finds

52:37

a political party together that kind of existential

52:39

crisis and that's the thing that might

52:42

bring them to get up together on policy because

52:44

there are clearly big differences

52:46

in that said about what they want conservative

52:49

party to be in the future

52:50

like yeah

52:51

i'm time and finally to you

52:53

you know you're sitting in the united states we've seen

52:56

these former president of the united

52:58

states challenges and and

53:00

and try the subvert american democracy

53:03

on we saw militants are

53:05

as his behest storm

53:07

, center of american democracy

53:09

the capitals and we've been treated to

53:12

edo these unbelievable hearing detailing

53:15

all of this none of that happened here

53:17

as a people hold boris johnson

53:19

you know that the british trump

53:21

kreider if you can

53:23

compare the

53:25

contrast and compare they would have said

53:27

at a at a honest school essay

53:32

well i have very good question

53:34

i'm a crush on our i think

53:36

once in good thing one of possibly a number

53:38

of good things have come out of the day boxes

53:41

seen the end of the boris johnson

53:43

prime ministership is that truth i

53:46

was actually prevailed i'm

53:48

a you know the the point it may

53:50

be that his cabinet and his government really

53:53

some of them felt more uneasy with and some

53:55

of them felt upset about the chaos when

53:57

the country needed anything but counts but

53:59

the fact

53:59

is it was when retired

54:02

member of the civil service came out

54:04

and said last week that

54:07

the brief which ministers been sent out

54:09

to defend was based on based flat

54:11

out lie a when that combined

54:13

with with panic about electoral

54:16

survival then essentially

54:18

then truth prevail job the

54:20

difficulty says difficulty on

54:23

this side of the atlantic is

54:25

that we are living politically

54:27

living politically world of beliefs rather

54:29

than sack full truth and

54:32

police possum ceilings

54:35

his political dynamite and

54:37

there

54:38

you know really does a lot to

54:40

steal so worried about on our

54:42

american side of opponent

54:44

it's an amazing situation and thank you both

54:47

feel incredible insights simon schama

54:49

and catherine hadn't thank you for being with us and

54:51

finally tonight

54:52

if it a very different

54:54

in as a sea of red and

54:56

white descended on pamplona in spain

54:59

for the first running of the bulls since the pandemic

55:01

was six people were injured at least no

55:04

one was bored on opening day the

55:06

question here in the uk is whether

55:08

the ball ha a ruffian the

55:10

dot we'll still romp on wimbledon

55:12

centre court he talks of abdominal

55:14

injury offers

55:15

when against american taylor fritz

55:17

last night and every

55:18

the hope the spanish champion will play

55:21

it a semi finals as he's chasing

55:23

a calendar sense in the woman's

55:25

game history has been made to

55:27

news is on the or has become

55:29

the first the arab player to reach a

55:31

grand slam final and

55:34

that is it for now if we ever miss i'll show

55:36

you can find the latest episode shortly

55:38

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55:40

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55:42

and all you need to do is pick up the phone

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55:49

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55:52

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55:54

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55:58

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56:13

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