0:04

Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour.

0:06

Here's what's coming up. The

0:12

mass kidnapping that shocked the

0:14

world. We revisit Nigeria's Chibok

0:16

girls ten years since their

0:18

lives were changed forever. And

0:21

having been run over by the sparkles

0:23

of justice, I

0:26

thought that was the end of my life. It's

0:29

an unbelievable life story of Yusef Salaam.

0:31

Imprisoned as a teen for a crime

0:33

he did not commit, the

0:35

exonerated Central Park Five member

0:37

tells me how it felt to

0:39

win a seat on the New York City Council. Plus,

0:42

there are large groups and

0:44

organizations that are preparing to

0:46

continue the fight. Is America

0:49

prepared for political violence? Homeland

0:51

Security expert Juliet Caim tells

0:53

Hari Srinivasan the government

0:55

needs to get serious about

0:58

potential election reaction. Welcome

1:17

to the program everyone. I'm Christiana Amanpour in

1:19

New York. In his criminal

1:21

trial and now in death he takes

1:23

up so much oxygen. O.J.

1:25

Simpson has died from cancer at the

1:27

age of 76. The former NFL star

1:30

was the center of American attention in

1:32

the mid-1990s accused of

1:35

brutally killing his ex-wife Nicole Brown

1:37

Simpson and her friend Ron

1:39

Goldman. The TV trial gripped

1:41

the country and his eventual acquittal was

1:44

a pivotal moment in the American cultural

1:46

landscape. However, two years later a jury

1:48

in a civil trial found O.J. Simpson

1:51

liable for their debts and ordered him

1:53

to pay $33.5 million in damages. Simpson's

1:55

trouble with

1:59

the law did not end there. He was

2:01

arrested in 2007 in Las Vegas and

2:03

found guilty of 12 charges,

2:05

including kidnapping and armed robbery.

2:08

He was released from prison in 2017. Joining

2:12

me now on this is the

2:14

criminal defense attorney and legal analyst,

2:16

Joi Jackson, and also with us,

2:19

Ann Olivarius. She's an attorney who

2:21

specializes in anti-discrimination cases, including sexual

2:23

harassment and abuse. So welcome to

2:25

you both. I

2:27

want to turn to you, Ann

2:29

Olivarius, first. The victims here were

2:32

two white people, a white woman,

2:34

and you, in fact, tweeted today

2:37

on the news of the death that

2:39

Nicole Simpson did not die at 76

2:42

years old in bed surrounded

2:44

by children and grandchildren,

2:47

as apparently OJ did. What

2:50

made you do that? What's your relationship

2:52

to this moment, to this case? Well,

2:57

of course, you know, I'm 69,

2:59

so I was there watching that

3:01

trial as much as I could when

3:03

it went on, and so I was

3:05

very much caught up in that, and

3:07

like many people, was hugely surprised at

3:10

the verdict in that case. And

3:12

so I followed his life since, and I do

3:14

a lot of work now on sexual assault

3:16

and discrimination, and of course,

3:18

domestic violence. And what we see,

3:21

much like we saw with the Amber

3:23

Heard trial in Britain when

3:25

Amber Heard was first in

3:27

a case against her ex-husband, Johnny Depp,

3:29

she won that case, and there was

3:31

a very esteemed judge, Nicole, who found

3:33

that there were 13 acts

3:35

of physical violence done to her

3:38

by Johnny Depp. She goes

3:40

to, you know, to have to take up the

3:42

same issue in the Commonwealth of Virginia, and

3:45

of course, she loses the case there. And

3:47

there, it's a huge media fiasco with a

3:49

judge who perhaps One might say

3:51

is not in control of the courtroom,

3:53

and it's a case where a celebrity

3:56

can buy social media bots and where

3:58

she's destroyed outside of the courtroom, which

4:00

the great the courtroom. O J. Simpson.

4:02

Again, it's the media I know of

4:04

a celebrity himself. Here. He is

4:06

in trial judge Ito many have criticised

4:09

the topic in Control of Our Class

4:11

or that courtroom of wanting the publicity

4:13

very much. The trial goes on for

4:16

nine months, it's wild and again O

4:18

J Simpson prevail and one might think

4:20

that against the evidence that was there.

4:23

Are that was it A an

4:25

outcome that was surprising. Semi

4:28

us tude zoe because you talk

4:30

of bothers source you know you're

4:32

on. Our air a lot talking about

4:34

this you have a say on a so

4:36

familiar with the whole story's. This was

4:38

a case though about a black.

4:40

Hero a sports hero having

4:43

been. Accused of these too

4:45

terribly violent murders, the divided

4:47

the nation divided Black and

4:49

White America. Take us back to

4:51

that moment. Yeah,

4:55

it was a pivotal moment on I

4:57

think a very historical one and certainly

4:59

not sure what should never be losses,

5:01

the fact that there are two victims

5:04

and their family. Their families are short

5:06

ailing to this day and will always

5:08

l at the fact that they were

5:10

dead right? The issue with Saw at

5:13

whose Hands and I think it'll be

5:15

controversial to be end of time whether

5:17

or not Oj Simpson is responsible many

5:19

were shot. If you go back and

5:22

you evaluate what cameras caught were various

5:24

groups. And organizations who are watching

5:26

the verdict remember the world. stop

5:28

to watch the verdict or you'll

5:30

see various reaction. Some people in

5:32

shops are you kidding? A jury

5:34

got it completely wrong, others incomplete

5:36

joy and jubilation over Juri. That

5:38

got it right and finally did

5:40

justice for member of the African

5:42

American community. So what will be

5:44

controversial forever? I do believe. and

5:46

that's why we had the civil

5:48

case and in the civil case

5:50

what you saw with the family

5:52

attempt to bring accountability. Now civil

5:54

cases are not criminal in nature.

5:56

They determine whether or not there's

5:58

liability that is. The possibility for a

6:01

big issue at hand which is the deaths

6:03

of Nicole Brown Simpson and of course with

6:05

the Goal Men and then the issue with

6:07

envy. What monetary damages and as use asserted

6:10

already, Cristiane was a thirty three point five

6:12

billion dollar verdict. finding him responsible, but going

6:14

back to the criminal verdict I think you

6:17

have to look at the context of the

6:19

time. There was also something very pivotal that

6:21

happened in America and Ninety Nine to and

6:23

abs the beating of Rodney King. Rodney came

6:26

as a black motorists who was pulled out

6:28

of his car and the video. Tape

6:30

was seen everywhere I would say internationally

6:32

of the fear speeding he got and

6:34

then the acquittal of the officers of

6:36

the L A T V thereafter. and

6:39

then you have B O J Simpson

6:41

case where the defense in that case

6:43

the defense team made up of. Lord.

6:46

Lawyers who are just historical Athlete Valley.

6:48

You have Johnny Cochrane, right? You have

6:50

Barry Scheck. You have Alan Dershowitz Just

6:53

attorneys who were just exceptional with their

6:55

crafts that really came together and I

6:57

think what they were able to do

6:59

with to deflect the issue and not

7:02

make it just about the killings right

7:04

up to Precious Souls. But to make

7:06

it about the Lapd and the racism

7:08

in the historical alleged racism you have

7:11

Mark from and who was an investigator

7:13

who they asserted and were able to

7:15

prove. Use the N word and

7:17

so I think that deflection really

7:19

turn the tables from a case

7:21

about just two people who died

7:23

to an institutional system that has

7:25

historically discriminated against African americans Oj

7:28

Simpson being an African American celebrity

7:30

and they you had now Missouri

7:32

that made a determination think that

7:34

was very broad and abroad determination

7:36

is we're not going to Stanford

7:38

anymore and I think he was

7:40

largely acquitted because of really a

7:42

referendum on an Lapd right that

7:44

had run amok. As opposed to whether

7:46

he committed those crimes. So you look at it

7:48

in the context of those crimes that they get

7:50

it right to be. Get it wrong with the

7:53

debate that day and peep different people will disagree.

7:55

But if you look at what was happening in

7:57

America at that time, to Drew is grappling with

7:59

so much. And I think and

8:01

grappling with auch, that's why they may

8:03

have reached the determination cristiane that they

8:06

ultimately did, finding him not guilty. And

8:09

of course the years have passed and

8:11

actually viewpoints have changed will get to

8:13

that and the moment the first I

8:16

want to go back to you saw

8:18

an olive are yes because he was

8:20

a woman's his his ex wife by

8:23

this times who had on multiple occasions

8:25

called the police, called hotlines was desperate

8:27

to be help from what see alleged

8:29

was a violence. Of former husband's.

8:32

She basically said that he or she was. Afraid

8:34

of him, he beat up. Or

8:36

in the aftermath of the crime pulls

8:38

to sell says and help lines as

8:40

you know exploded on see was very

8:42

afraid at one point she said you

8:44

know he's going to kill me it's

8:46

odd please came around here she had

8:48

a split lip and a black eyes

8:50

and she alluded to pass cause to

8:53

the police saying to the offices you

8:55

never do anything about him you talk

8:57

to him and then leave. On.

9:00

He eventually pleaded. No contest to

9:02

battery charges except for spousal

9:04

batteries. Put that in the

9:07

context of how women like

9:09

Nicole Simpsons worth this believed

9:11

in those days Now all

9:13

those his bags are in

9:15

the nineties. And before all the way

9:17

back before you know the me too movement.

9:21

Vs. The Christians or that's been

9:24

said about racism in the backdrop. It's

9:26

true. There's no. Question about it would

9:28

seem good said still or the

9:30

point you're raising back women and

9:32

women's truth they get forgotten about

9:34

that. This is not the lead

9:36

piece of this story is shocking

9:39

to me. She had pictures that.

9:41

Reader save of her being battered by him.

9:43

The Recruit Risk pictures on are proof that

9:45

she was a punching bag for this man

9:47

and you know we say back then but

9:50

we didn't listen to women or their truth

9:52

or their testimonies. But the fact is with

9:54

Amber heard we didn't listen either and she'd

9:56

already. Johnny Depp. Convicted

9:59

in. Britain, in a bearish

10:01

spy in and out of before

10:03

an educated judge, it very careful

10:05

opinion, so are we still has

10:08

achieved a still. People have to races

10:10

which is a serious problem without a

10:12

doubt. and with total respect, I bow

10:14

to that, but that aspect. Still, that

10:16

in the corporate even today when this

10:18

is broken, the fact that her voice

10:20

was not heard, the fact that she

10:22

was a deeply battered woman. a total

10:24

punching bag for this man. And there's

10:26

no respective into that. It's barely mentioned.

10:29

It's like, okay, it's a minor piece,

10:31

sure, but why isn't that? The. Central

10:33

Stories and why does domestic battery still

10:35

alive? And we start with their bird?

10:37

It's still continuing and we're not paying

10:39

attention. We don't do something about it.

10:42

Which. Is one of the reasons why

10:44

I that was my first question to

10:46

you. but I want to go back

10:48

to Joey as well. Talking about it's

10:50

not just the racial divides but also

10:52

the celebrity status Oj Simpson was a

10:55

celebrity. Like so many celebrities who are

10:57

generally given the benefit of the doubt.

10:59

but so. He I want to ask

11:01

you this because you know in the

11:04

many years even beyond he when he

11:06

was found civil libel for their deaths

11:08

in twenty fourteen even before the land

11:10

make. Dogs landmark documentary. it's a

11:12

Cnn. Our see poll found that

11:14

fifty. Three percent of black people

11:17

surveyed said the murder charges against

11:19

Simpson Why? I? That's definitely true

11:22

or probably true. He continued to

11:24

maintains his innocence and his never,

11:26

ah, apologize or come close to

11:29

it's a joint. What?

11:31

Is it happened in those intervening

11:33

years? Explain the this the but

11:36

the psychology The believes the evidence.

11:38

Maybe that got so many of

11:40

the black community to shift. To

11:42

a majority of then believe. That he was

11:45

in fact probably guilty. Yes,

11:48

it is a couple of things that

11:50

are very important before do that. I'm

11:53

racism very critical. importance on. and

11:55

the concerns are that domestic violence

11:57

is an issue and thirty people

12:00

who give voice to that and certainly people

12:02

who are the victim of that need to

12:04

be heard. I think the

12:06

defense relating it to this particular

12:08

case Christiane was very adept at

12:10

really deflecting and again changing the

12:13

narrative from that right to

12:15

the narrative of a referendum on LAPD.

12:17

So I just want to be clear

12:19

that everything Anne says with respect to

12:21

domestic violence and abuse and hearing women

12:23

needs to be heard and it's very

12:25

valued but I think is it related

12:27

to this particular case the defense really

12:29

deflected massively from that issue

12:31

and made it about something else. To

12:33

the core of your question Christiane in

12:36

terms of the shifting of movement and

12:38

the shifting of views I think number

12:40

one there's always been a view right

12:43

in the African-American community that we have

12:45

a criminal justice system that may not

12:47

be as fair that may police African-Americans

12:49

and other people of color in a

12:52

different way than they do others in

12:54

other communities that are more affluent potentially

12:56

and so I think that the African-American

12:59

community in the OJ case took

13:01

this as an opportunity to sort of

13:03

you know look for justice by them

13:05

making it right the defense team a

13:07

referendum on that. The

13:09

other issue is that OJ Simpson you know

13:12

you can argue and debate whether he's really

13:14

been a child of the African-American community or

13:16

whether he just was when it was convenient

13:18

as it related to this case and I

13:20

think as people have learned more and perhaps

13:23

over the years right people's views always change

13:25

about other matters people become enlightened for a

13:27

variety of different reasons but I think that

13:29

back then the context of the time there

13:32

and so much racially going on I

13:34

think it was it's hard to ignore

13:36

the racial component I think if time

13:39

goes on people look anew perhaps they

13:41

have a you know a new evaluation

13:43

of how they see this and let's

13:45

not forget last point that as we

13:47

talked about he was held accountable maybe

13:50

not criminally but accountable in terms of

13:52

wrongful death in the civil cases that

13:54

proceeded based upon what his actions that

13:56

that jury deemed to be and that

13:59

he was responsible. responsible for their deaths.

14:02

And really briefly, Anne, because we've got only

14:04

about 20 seconds, what it did was change

14:07

the media landscape, particularly on cable. This

14:09

is just 24-7, you know, overhead cameras

14:11

that still exist. Has that

14:13

been good or bad for society and

14:15

for justice? I

14:18

mean, my own view as the lawyer who litigates

14:20

all the time, both in Britain and in

14:23

the United States and in Ireland, I

14:25

think that the cameras, unless you've got

14:27

a really good judge, the

14:29

cameras in the courtroom are not good. It's

14:31

great for democracy to actually be put on

14:34

screen. But what you do is with

14:36

Judge Edo and what we found out in the

14:38

Commonwealth of Virginia with, of course, the Ever Heard

14:40

case, you've got judges who don't know

14:42

how to handle a courtroom, who are not

14:44

doing their jobs properly, I would say. And

14:47

that's a real problem. And it becomes a

14:49

media fest. And that's not good

14:51

for democracy. Well,

14:53

thank you both, Anne, Oliveris and Joey.

14:55

Thank you so much indeed for being with

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Chasing Life, wherever you get your podcasts.

16:10

And to the point of the system

16:12

and the unfairness of the system that

16:14

was a big factor in the OJ case, years

16:16

before that, a mass media

16:18

story here in New York

16:20

also caught the country's attention,

16:23

but this one showed a

16:25

true miscarriage of justice against

16:27

young teenagers, black and Latino.

16:31

In 1989, America was shocked by the

16:33

assault and rape of a female jogger

16:35

here in Central Park. The

16:37

police quickly arrested 16s and sent five

16:39

of them to prison. They were labeled

16:41

the Central Park Five and were vilified

16:44

in the press. Donald Trump even

16:46

called for the return of the

16:48

death penalty in full-page ads across

16:50

multiple newspapers. But

16:52

the five teenagers were innocent. And

16:55

yet despite multiple glaring failings in

16:57

the investigation, they spent years in

16:59

jail. Eventually in 2002,

17:02

the real attacker confessed and

17:04

their convictions were vacated. And

17:07

this year, one of the exonerated five,

17:09

Yousaf Salaam, became a member of the

17:11

New York City Council. He was elected

17:13

and I sat down with him here

17:15

in Manhattan. Yousaf Salaam,

17:18

Counselor Salaam, welcome to the program. My

17:20

pleasure and thank you for having me. I was

17:22

a journalist based here in New York when all

17:24

of this happened and I covered some of what

17:27

happened to you. And

17:29

I want to know whether you ever thought that

17:32

you would get from that point of the

17:35

worst time in your life to being

17:37

an elected City Council member in New

17:39

York. I think that

17:41

that perhaps was the furthest thing

17:43

from my mind. You know,

17:45

as a young 15-year-old child having

17:48

been run over by the spike wheels of

17:50

justice, I

17:53

thought that that was the end of my life. I

17:55

thought that my life would never Be

17:58

the same. Never been

18:00

the same but to be an elected official? Wow.

18:05

Never. Imagined and. There's just

18:07

so much power elected Pow Pow

18:09

from the people the you have

18:11

right now to. I'm. Livid

18:14

is use This would avenge yourself. Of

18:16

what was done to you. So

18:18

when you think about the police for instance,

18:21

and police. Reform. Would.

18:23

You say? Cuddles their funding put

18:25

them in an hour. Accountability Boggs,

18:27

What do you think? Well

18:29

I think the good thing about my

18:32

experiences that I get the opportunity to

18:34

use the whole of it to direct

18:36

me. You know, being a

18:38

servant of the people and being a

18:40

person who's not just been close to

18:43

the pain but has been in pay

18:45

a lot of the experiences that our

18:47

community experiences. I've big

18:49

serious firsthand, you know, and so

18:51

being a spokesman for the people

18:54

as an elected official is different

18:56

for me because I get the

18:58

opportunity to. Really? Use that

19:00

in a in a really powerful

19:02

way right arm. I. Never say

19:05

things like different the police because I

19:07

feel like the police unnecessary when I

19:09

think about. All. Of the things

19:11

that police departments do and police officers

19:13

do a know that there's ways that

19:16

we can right size budgets. We can

19:18

allow for the white person to. Respond

19:21

to the right situation. And.

19:24

Often times that's not the police, you know,

19:27

If there's someone who's experiencing a

19:29

mental health crisis, you know there's

19:31

a lot of organizations that actually

19:33

work in that space. They don't

19:35

have the, but they they're working

19:37

on a shoestring budget and so

19:40

often times to help to solve

19:42

the problem. Is a. In

19:44

in requires a different type

19:46

of. thinking. Idris

19:49

to requires a change from what we've been

19:51

doing to what we could do and you

19:53

asked in your first hearing is chairman of

19:56

the Public Safety committee. You press the and

19:58

Y P D to explain how. it

20:00

prevents wrongful convictions now.

20:03

You were obviously wrongfully convicted along with

20:05

the other four. Did you get

20:07

an answer? I'm speaking

20:09

from a person who experienced

20:11

the full brunt of the

20:13

police department and

20:16

the individuals that interrogated us weren't

20:18

beginners, they weren't neophytes. These were

20:21

officers, in fact detectives, that

20:23

had at least 20 years on the job. What

20:25

I know about the detectives that interrogated us, they

20:29

knew that they were getting

20:31

inconsistent and incorrect stories. They

20:33

knew that what they were

20:35

hearing as false statements just

20:38

to save the lives of us who were trying

20:40

to figure out how to get out of the

20:42

nightmare that we were now in. So you were

20:44

trying to just tell them anything to get them

20:46

to stop whatever harsh treatment and get yourself out?

20:48

Well so I didn't make a false confession but

20:51

four of my comrades did but

20:54

I'm saying that when you listen to those

20:56

confessions every single one of them were different.

20:58

I never forget you know in the Central

21:00

Park Five documentary Raymond Santana reads his false

21:03

confession. I observed the male,

21:05

Black Kevin, with scratch on

21:07

face was struggling with a female.

21:10

And he stops midway through, looks

21:12

up at the camera. I remember

21:14

being in the audience watching with

21:16

the audience. A 14 year

21:19

old boy doesn't talk like this. And

21:22

it was you could hear the audible gasp in the

21:24

room. It was almost as if everyone

21:27

had realized that they've been tricked

21:29

too. And you

21:31

know I know that

21:33

there's a way forward and the

21:35

way forward is to not have the wrong

21:37

person in prison because when you

21:39

have the wrong person in prison oftentimes the

21:42

real criminal is out committing

21:44

more crime. As what

21:46

happened to you all because you were

21:48

wrongfully imprisoned and then finally this

21:50

other person admitted to

21:53

it. Submitted DNA, admitted to

21:55

it. Do

21:57

you remember? how

22:00

the prison officials reacted to you or the

22:02

police or the law enforcement. Was there

22:04

shame? Was there shock? Was

22:07

there regret for what they'd done to you? You

22:10

know, for me,

22:14

my experience in

22:17

what I call the womb of America, I know

22:20

oftentimes in our community they call it the belly

22:22

of the beast, was

22:24

different. There was a knowing

22:28

of sorts from many of the officers.

22:31

They knew that I wasn't supposed to be there and

22:34

they gave me grace and mercy.

22:36

They allowed me to read

22:39

books and draw and just kind

22:41

of be still.

22:44

I wanted to just ask you, where did you

22:46

get the courage, the strength, the

22:48

fortitude, the resolve not to sign

22:50

a false confession like your other

22:52

four comrades did? A

22:55

lot of it was my faith. You

22:57

know, I for one, just like the

22:59

others, I'm sure, we

23:01

kept telling the officers what happened.

23:05

And for me, it was just this strange

23:07

nightmare where they kept saying, well, is this

23:09

where you got the jogger? I didn't know

23:11

what they were talking about. I

23:14

heard them beating up Corey Wise in the next room.

23:16

And sometimes they would come into the room that I was

23:18

in and tell me that I was next. And

23:21

so I was very afraid and

23:23

I didn't know what was going to

23:26

happen. But I knew that I hadn't raped a

23:28

woman. I knew that, you

23:31

know, I was thinking that I was the good

23:33

guy. I was going to go to the

23:35

police department, tell them what I saw, and

23:38

I'd be home before my mom got back. I

23:41

came home seven years later. And because Corey

23:43

Wise was with me, he came home 13 years

23:45

later. But look at God, because

23:49

Corey persevered and

23:52

was stick-to-ative in his innocence,

23:55

the real perpetrator met him again

23:58

in prison. Hold

24:00

the truth. It's just incredible. Did

24:02

you ever find out what motivated the real

24:05

rapist to tell the truth? I

24:08

think his words was that he had started

24:10

going to church. He started

24:12

to try to atone for the crimes

24:15

that he did. You know, at

24:17

the very end of his crime spree,

24:20

he was trying to kill all of his victims. The

24:23

last victim, a young woman

24:25

named Lourdes Gonzalez, as

24:27

he tells it, he comes

24:29

into her home, brandishes a knife,

24:32

she's pregnant, she's big pregnant, and

24:36

she pleads with him. Can you

24:39

let me put my babies in the next room? And of

24:41

course, he said yes, he puts them

24:43

in the room and locks the door. And

24:45

I can only imagine she's probably thinking this is going to

24:47

be the worst thing that ever happened to me, but

24:50

I'm going to get through it. Her husband

24:52

wasn't there. She was there with

24:54

her children. She's pregnant. He

24:57

then rapes her and then he stabs her to death, killing

25:01

her and her unborn child. Now

25:04

when I think about that, this is months after

25:06

the Central Park Jogger case, she

25:09

could have been alive today had the

25:11

detective said something

25:13

isn't adding up. These

25:16

guys are telling false

25:18

narratives. This is not how it

25:20

happened. Something else is

25:22

going on here. Let's go back to the drawing

25:24

board and look at this case

25:27

with new eyes and new information. It's

25:30

an incredible story and full of

25:32

instruction as well for the justice

25:34

system. What

25:37

do you want to do with

25:39

your term in office? After

25:42

having experienced all this, you've got police

25:44

reform, you're very interested in trying to

25:47

get affordable housing, your councilman for Harlem.

25:51

Is there a number one on your list

25:53

of legislative priorities? Absolutely.

25:57

Affordable housing and more of it. That

25:59

is top. Far

26:01

none. You know when I think

26:03

about affordable housing, I think about a person

26:05

who has the opportunity to plan in safety.

26:08

A person who can afford their rent and

26:11

not have to make a choice between whether they can

26:13

feed their family or afford the rent. The

26:16

rents in New York City

26:19

are astronomically high and

26:21

it's unfortunate because the

26:25

pay that people receive has not met

26:27

up with the times. We need to

26:30

be thriving and I think when we

26:32

go from a position of survival to

26:34

thriving, it gives us the largest

26:37

opportunity to dig deep and

26:39

provide the very best of ourselves.

26:42

A lot of our resources, a lot of our

26:44

power is leaving New York. A

26:47

lot of people are saying, I can't afford to

26:50

continue in this way. So therefore

26:52

they're leaving to other places that

26:54

they can afford and of

26:56

course with them when they

26:58

leave, their power leaves. And

27:01

so when I'm thinking about legislatively,

27:03

the biggest thing that we have

27:05

to that elephant in the room,

27:08

it's affordable housing. You

27:10

obviously were very famous,

27:12

infamous for a while.

27:15

How do people react to you when they pass you in

27:17

the streets? Especially young kids,

27:19

maybe older people as well. I

27:23

got to tell you, I get a

27:25

mixed response but a large part of

27:27

the response makes me

27:29

feel like everyone

27:31

is counting on me to

27:34

use a magic wand and just

27:36

change everything. And

27:39

I'm trying to encourage our

27:41

community, our constituents really, to

27:44

understand that the miracle is us

27:47

organizing, us coming

27:50

together, us realizing

27:52

that every part of the

27:54

puzzle matters and is significant.

27:57

Even the smallest piece. If

28:00

you put the puzzle together and that piece is not

28:02

there, it's not a complete picture.

28:05

You're a religious person and you were sworn

28:07

in, you put your hand on the Quran.

28:09

Tell me this, I asked you to

28:11

bring it because I find it really

28:14

emblematic of your whole experience.

28:17

Not only is the Quran there, remind

28:20

us who gave it to you, but also there's

28:22

a cover and remind us how

28:24

that cover came into play. Yeah,

28:26

absolutely. This Quran is

28:28

35 years old. This

28:32

is the very first Quran that I was

28:34

given to, given by my mother. She

28:37

gave this to me and I was able to, if

28:39

you look at the old photos of me walking in

28:41

and out of the courtroom, this is

28:43

the Quran that I had with me as I walked

28:45

in and out of the courtroom. I was able to

28:47

take this with me into the

28:50

prison and I

28:53

read it for the first time from

28:56

the front from the beginning and I

28:58

read it from cover to cover over

29:01

and over and over again.

29:04

I put it in this cover, I actually created this

29:06

cover. I hand sewn it while

29:09

I was in prison because what happened, this

29:11

Quran is very worn as you

29:14

can imagine. Oh, it

29:16

really is. This is a Quran

29:19

that the spine is

29:21

already splitting, but

29:23

all throughout this Quran, you

29:26

would see my hand, I would

29:28

underline things, I would fold pages, I

29:31

would highlight things, I would write things

29:33

in the spine. This

29:35

was a true study of

29:38

faith, but more than that, I

29:40

think it was me trying to understand how

29:44

can I grow through what

29:46

I'm to go through. And you read a

29:48

lot of Mandela. Oh my goodness. You know,

29:50

he said to be angry

29:52

and bitter is like drinking poison

29:55

and expecting your enemy to die. It's

29:57

brilliant. I had to digest that. Because

30:00

I was angry, I was upset. I did not

30:02

understand how could

30:04

the system run over us with the

30:07

spike wheels of justice and

30:09

then run over us again and lay

30:11

us out flat. I couldn't understand it.

30:14

I wanted to have

30:16

someone, even when we were

30:18

found innocent, we were hoping for an

30:21

apology. We were hoping

30:23

that a person who

30:26

became the future president of these

30:28

United States would equally

30:30

say, you know what? I took out a full page

30:32

ad in 1989 calling for your death. I'm

30:38

sorry. Instead. I'm going to take out

30:40

a full page ad and

30:43

call for an apology for

30:45

you all. Instead he doubled down. This is

30:47

Donald Trump. And again, we all remember these

30:49

ads in the newspapers in New York calling

30:52

for a reinstatement of the death penalty.

30:54

He doubled down. They admitted their guilt. Yes.

30:57

And now, I don't know

31:00

what you think, whether it's karma,

31:02

faith or whatever, but this is a

31:04

twice indicted fellow, impeach rather.

31:06

He's got four indictments, 91

31:08

charges. What do

31:10

you think? This is a very

31:12

crafty individual. I

31:15

say that because there's

31:18

been a love affair of sorts with

31:20

Donald Trump. I remember

31:22

one of my most favorite artists, Nas,

31:26

he said in one of his songs, I want to be

31:28

rich like Donald Trump and Marla Maple when he was married

31:30

to Marla Maple. No, he came

31:32

into the room and, oh, this is Donald Trump,

31:34

the real estate mogul. His name was everywhere and

31:36

on everything. But

31:39

I think that for

31:42

him to craft what's going on with him by

31:45

saying, hey, I'm just like you, I'm

31:48

indicted too. That's what he's saying

31:50

now. That's what's laughing in the face when you think about all

31:53

of the things that happens with

31:55

the injustice that we experience.

31:58

When you hear him say things, Like

32:00

hey, listen, I got some gold sneakers

32:02

that you can buy. As

32:04

if we can put the snake was on and

32:06

click our heels and somehow walk down the yellow

32:08

brick road. These are all distractions

32:11

that polis away from what we

32:13

were supposed to be focused on.

32:15

These are the shiny apples. And

32:17

I think when I think about.

32:19

All. Of this, all of it. We.

32:22

Have to say to ourselves. What?

32:25

We deserve as a country.

32:29

Is. A United States of America.

32:31

And not a divided states of America. Uses.

32:34

Salaam! Thank. You so much indeed or

32:36

pleasure Thank you. And.

32:39

And what a hope for unity and set

32:42

of division. We turn now

32:44

to Nigeria. It ten years after

32:46

the civil School kidnapping that shots

32:48

the world's. When Boko Haram militants

32:50

stormed a boarding school in the

32:52

north of the country, searching the

32:54

three hundred girl pupils and sparking.

32:57

A global try to bring back our

32:59

girls. A decade on the

33:01

legacy of those abductions is still

33:03

reverberating. Sadly, Many of

33:05

the children never made it home.

33:07

Stephanie: sorry, it's and Cnn's as

33:10

equals Makes the journey back to

33:12

to Bog to meet some who

33:14

did manage to escape and the

33:16

families. Of those who are still missing. The

33:22

wrote a book northeastern Nigeria. Ten

33:26

years on from the kidnapping of

33:28

nearly three hundred school girls, With.

33:31

Comes to meet some of the

33:33

girls who would seek and that

33:35

night in April twenty four team

33:37

and see of the specific still

33:39

shapes children's lives here will come

33:41

flooding through this who. And

33:43

they would. Many cars, Many. His

33:46

chest is t on how while

33:48

was just sixteen when she was

33:50

snatched from her boarding schools late

33:52

at night by Boko Haram militants.

33:55

New the bone do. Plan

33:57

for I see and some So

33:59

the. They were really against education that much. The

34:03

Islamist group took more than 270 girls into the

34:05

vast sunbeasts of forest,

34:09

though some managed to escape. Amina,

34:12

now 27, was also abducted at night, told by Boko Haram leaders

34:18

that marriage was the only way to avoid

34:20

repeated abuse by fighters in the camp.

34:24

They just say they will take us

34:26

as if they are not. And

34:28

then anytime he wants to sleep with

34:30

you, he will sleep with you. And

34:33

then when he's tired of you, he

34:35

will hand over to someone. And

34:38

so I just think that I'd be targeted to get

34:40

my to the one person. She

34:44

was the first of the Chibok girls to escape

34:46

after being held in a forest, emerging

34:49

with her Boko Haram husband, who also fled the group,

34:53

and their young baby after two years. Now

34:56

eight years old, Amina's daughter has faced stigma

34:59

for being a child of a Boko Haram fighter. School

35:03

kidnappings are shadowed at hangover

35:05

the education system in northern Nigeria, with

35:08

an estimated 1,700 children abducted from school in the

35:10

past decade, according

35:13

to Amnesty International. Just

35:16

last month, more than 100 students, some of whom were in the

35:19

camp, were

35:24

taken by armed men who stormed their

35:27

school in Kouriga, Kaduna province. In

35:30

recent years, criminal gangs have created

35:32

a kidnapping for ransom industry spanning

35:34

across the northwest of the country, which

35:37

successive governments have struggled to grapple

35:40

with. The familiar

35:42

of governance around the Chibok

35:44

girls issue has

35:47

led to an industry of

35:49

abduction, a society that has

35:52

stunts regard for human life.

35:55

Many Nigerian mothers are now too scared

35:57

to send them to school. Go

36:00

Tragedy deed. It makes the

36:03

mother feel guilty he didn't

36:05

mind. That. What did see it

36:07

by arguing for education for the I

36:09

thought that. Was. To say

36:12

play with the last.

36:14

In know that to be educated fewer than

36:16

fifty percent of mind you and gov attend

36:19

school. At a basic education

36:21

level according. To a Unicef report,

36:23

in a country with five percent

36:25

of the wealth children by twenty

36:28

thirty, the United Nations has said

36:30

quotes what happens the children and

36:32

I do a matter of significantly

36:35

to regional and global development. Back

36:39

into balk. For many mothers, the

36:41

pain continues a decade on.

36:43

Yannis daughter Brisket Truth was

36:45

among the typical stolen from

36:48

school and remains missing along

36:50

with eighty one others. The.

36:52

You believe in your heart? Yes and that

36:54

is alive. Site lists is or less has

36:56

made not an idealist is alive. She's

37:00

kept her daughter's close ready for when

37:02

she returns. This is how we keep

37:04

it we and with. Their

37:07

was ignored for did and then

37:09

keep it for as a city

37:11

has enough. Never. Given

37:14

up hope. Despite the agony

37:16

see and so many parents in

37:18

Nigeria have to. Endure. Imagine.

37:21

Keeping their girls things ready for

37:23

they're hopeful returns. This

37:29

week on the assignments with mean

37:31

Audie Cornish I met with Alex Garland,

37:33

director of the new fuzzy film Civil

37:35

War. This is a movie that

37:37

ass what could happen if the system

37:40

of checks and balances that hold a

37:42

democracy together fall apart. The. Question

37:44

is in the film Is this

37:46

something we should be really thinking

37:48

about? Gaudy Against and the answer

37:50

is probably implicitly is just listen

37:53

to the assignment with Rt. Cornish

37:55

Onslaught of mine. Now,

38:00

when practiced correctly, law and order

38:03

is vital in upholding American

38:05

and all other democracies, as we

38:07

saw on January 6th, when a

38:09

violent mob incited by then President

38:12

Donald Trump sought to prevent a

38:14

peaceful transition of power. So

38:16

looking ahead to the 2024 election, some

38:18

fear another upheaval should Trump

38:20

lose again. Our next

38:22

guest is one of those sounding the alarm.

38:25

Homeland Security expert Juliette Kayyem

38:28

argues the government isn't ready

38:30

for the violence Trump might unleash. And

38:32

she's joining Hari Srinivasan now to discuss

38:35

what President Biden should do to plan

38:37

for the worst. Christiane, thanks

38:39

Juliette Kayyem. Thanks so much for joining us. You

38:42

wrote an article recently that the title

38:44

was the government isn't ready for the

38:46

violence Trump might unleash. What

38:48

is most concerning you right now heading into this

38:50

election? So what's concerning

38:52

me is both

38:55

the nature and

38:57

the consistency of threats

39:00

of violence that are coming out of the

39:02

Trump campaign, in particular with Donald Trump.

39:05

I sort of take as a given that

39:07

he's telling us what his intentions are, as

39:09

he did before January 6th. There

39:11

is an elevated threat environment, which the FBI

39:14

has already warned us about. He

39:16

threatens or utilizes the

39:19

potential for violence, whether it's on his social media

39:21

sites or in his speeches.

39:23

The language is the language of incitement.

39:26

And so the scenario that I

39:28

worry about isn't just sort of

39:30

our election, but if Trump were

39:32

to lose, we

39:34

need to be ready that

39:36

he needs to create a narrative

39:38

about what that loss means. It

39:41

was stolen. The election was rigged.

39:43

And President Biden, not as the

39:45

candidate, but as the president of

39:47

the United States, who needs to

39:49

guarantee a peaceful election,

39:52

needs to be more transparent on what

39:55

the preparations are and take some of

39:57

the advice of the January 6th committee

39:59

report. to get ready

40:01

for potentially the next insurrection.

40:04

So what was some of the advice

40:06

from that report that bears

40:09

repeating and bears keeping in mind? So

40:11

there's two different pieces of the report.

40:15

700 pages are a documentation of what

40:17

happened on January 6 and

40:20

a telling of how that

40:22

was a, essentially a state-sponsored

40:24

insurrection. There are about four

40:27

to five pages of recommendations, but

40:29

they are worth following. Some are

40:32

about sort of increased sentencing enhancements

40:35

for the kinds of crimes that

40:37

we saw around January 6. Those

40:39

would require congressional approval. But

40:41

others sort of direct the federal

40:44

government to be more organized, more

40:46

centralized, to share information with state

40:48

and locals and be

40:50

prepared in particular for the

40:52

time period between November and

40:54

January. If Donald Trump wins,

40:57

then there will likely be an orderly

40:59

transition of power simply because

41:01

we have no reason to suspect President

41:03

Biden wouldn't do that. But

41:05

if he loses, we certainly know from

41:08

what Trump has said and we also

41:10

know from what the FBI

41:12

is telling us that there are

41:14

large groups and organizations that are

41:17

preparing to continue the fight. And

41:20

those are the kinds of law

41:23

enforcement and preparedness measures that

41:25

President Biden needs to address

41:28

now and specifically

41:30

needs to be transparent about. He

41:32

needs to guide

41:34

this very divided population through

41:37

the next couple of months. When

41:39

you mentioned that former President Trump is

41:41

telling us exactly what he's gonna do,

41:43

what he's interested in, there's

41:46

always this concern with him

41:48

about how much of this rhetoric

41:50

is bluster. That's exactly

41:52

right. I've long taken Trump

41:55

literally because he does signal

41:58

what his intentions are, whether it was before. for

42:00

January 6th and the

42:02

warnings that people like me who were

42:04

following him saying, you know, this is

42:06

no longer a hint, right? It is

42:08

a place, it is a time, and

42:10

it's a mission, at least for January 6th. Now

42:13

what we're seeing in terms of

42:15

the election strategy, the campaign strategy and

42:17

what he's doing on social media, let

42:20

alone what he's saying in rallies that

42:22

we tend to ignore in the mainstream

42:24

press, is very much the

42:26

same kind of language. Now I want

42:28

to be clear, most of Donald Trump

42:31

supporters are not going to go to

42:33

violence, but what Donald Trump certainly knows

42:36

is that there are people

42:39

who follow him who

42:41

will be guided by that kind of

42:44

language. And what he certainly ought to

42:46

know at this stage is that there

42:48

is lots of activity in social media

42:50

taking his words, taking his language, and

42:53

then essentially continuing to weaponize it.

42:55

These are things that Donald Trump

42:57

is aware of and does nothing

42:59

to curb and in fact further

43:02

enhances. Look,

43:05

this is really disconcerting. I get it. I

43:08

get people's desire to think, no, this time

43:10

it will be okay. I see no purpose

43:12

in that at this stage. We

43:15

should be guaranteed as citizens, whatever

43:17

our ideological background, a

43:20

peaceful election period and transition

43:23

to the next term, whether

43:25

it is President Biden or

43:27

former President Donald Trump, and

43:31

listen to what Donald

43:34

Trump is telling us will happen

43:36

if he loses. How

43:39

do we have conversations leading

43:41

up to the election

43:43

and after with this

43:46

group of Americans who might

43:48

believe in what Kelly

43:51

Conway famously made the phrase, alternative

43:53

facts, who at this point today

43:56

think that Joe Biden

43:58

is not the legitimately elected Yeah.

44:00

So there's a lot of lessons learned now.

44:02

I think that maybe if there's a silver

44:04

lining to this, we certainly know different

44:07

strategies. And I think it depends on

44:09

who the we is. So I want

44:11

to sort of divide up this group

44:13

of people. So we see polling that

44:15

suggests a large percentage of Americans think

44:17

that Biden didn't legitimately win. Some of

44:20

that may just be posturing for polls.

44:22

So that poll may not be as

44:24

big as 30 or 40% or whatever the

44:26

polls are telling us. We know that

44:29

there is a group of people who do

44:31

believe the misinformation and the disinformation. And

44:33

what gets them to sort of look

44:35

at reality are three things. One is

44:38

it's actually their social group, their family

44:40

and friends. There's almost nothing that the

44:42

government can pounce on your head. It

44:44

is people being alerted

44:46

or understanding what's happening to their peer

44:48

group. You have a mother who goes

44:51

into this hole or whatever. And look,

44:54

peer groups tend to find like-minded souls.

44:56

This is not easy. But

44:58

the solution is not going to

45:00

come from some talking points from

45:03

the White House. It is going

45:05

to come from communities engaging

45:08

people in one-on-one conversations. People

45:10

have trusted family members,

45:12

trusted advisors, trusted professionals. And we know,

45:14

first of all, we know that piece

45:17

works. The second is

45:19

if we're the media, is

45:21

to essentially not

45:23

repeat the untruth, if

45:26

even to say that's outrageous.

45:28

So part of it is this understanding

45:30

of what's called the truth sandwich, which

45:32

is two plus two equals four. Donald

45:34

Trump said two plus two equals five.

45:37

That is not true. Two plus two

45:39

equals four. That is a way to think

45:41

about how we

45:43

package truth. And then the third piece

45:46

is sometimes it's not words. I

45:48

have long believed and have

45:50

written and believe it now that

45:54

law enforcement and prosecutions have a role in

45:56

this. One of the reasons why the insurgency

46:00

groups are essentially on their

46:02

knees. It's hard for them to raise

46:04

money. It's hard for them to recruit

46:06

is because of these prosecutions. So part

46:08

of it is also letting people know

46:10

there is a price to pay for

46:13

unlawful conduct, that this isn't just

46:15

words. So some

46:17

of the prescriptions that the January

46:19

6th report laid out was in

46:22

what we do physically to prepare

46:24

the DC area. If President Biden

46:26

was to win the election, and

46:29

we kind of have another rebuilding

46:31

of forces that want to do

46:33

something on January 6th or another

46:35

day, and the Biden

46:37

administration says, hey, you know what, we're going to

46:39

declare this kind of a national security event, and

46:42

we're going to have that kind of security

46:44

around it. Does that just make people on

46:47

the other side go, look, see, look,

46:49

the fix is in. There's no way

46:51

that we could actually express our voice.

46:53

The state is exerting so

46:55

much authority there. They

46:57

want to make sure that there's no transition of

46:59

power because, you know, to Donald Trump that was

47:01

legitimately elected in their minds. Look,

47:03

there's going to be people that will proceed this through a

47:06

political lens, no matter what. And

47:09

we have to accept that. The

47:12

more preparation and planning that President

47:14

Biden can do in terms of

47:16

who's the lead federal agency, what

47:18

kind of physical

47:21

protections do you want, say, at Congress

47:23

or the Supreme Court or even at

47:25

the White House, who's in charge in

47:27

DC. DC is a complicated governance system,

47:30

as we saw in January 6th, between

47:32

the National Guard and Capitol Police and

47:34

Secret Service and local police. Let's get

47:37

that organized now. And

47:39

the reason why I urge that is one, that no one's

47:41

guessing at the moment something happened,

47:43

as we saw in the January 6th

47:45

Committee report, it was that inability to

47:47

respond in many ways. Who could do

47:49

what? What were their authorities that made

47:52

it difficult? And I think secondly, you

47:55

know, that this organization will actually

47:57

ensure that peaceful

47:59

protection. even against,

48:02

you know, the President Biden is allowable.

48:04

What we don't want is a situation

48:06

when, you know, everyone

48:08

goes to their separate sides,

48:12

and then you have the conflict. And I

48:14

think President Biden needs to be transparent about

48:16

it now. I think it's the only way

48:18

it would work in

48:21

order to minimize the kind

48:23

of politics that you're talking about. Should

48:25

President Biden now say, look,

48:28

if I lose this election, here you go, we

48:30

are going to make sure that we will have a transition of power.

48:33

I mean, I don't know if there is, you know, fear

48:37

of missing out for Donald Trump, whether he would

48:40

say the same thing, but making

48:42

clear to the electorate that these

48:45

are his ground rules. Yeah,

48:47

this is a great point. He absolutely should. In

48:50

fact, I now think that the question that we

48:52

often ask Donald Trump or some of his elected

48:56

supporters, you know, will

48:58

you accept the results of the election as sort

49:00

of a silly question? They can wiggle themselves out

49:02

of that. The question we need to start asking

49:04

is, do

49:07

you condone violence if

49:11

your candidate does not win? We

49:13

need to start

49:15

shaming this violence

49:18

and the threat of violence that has become

49:20

part of our democratic process.

49:24

Our norms are completely stretched right

49:26

now, and we're kind of not seeing it. And

49:30

so I think not only should President Biden say, here's

49:33

how it's going to work peacefully if I don't

49:35

win, but we need

49:37

to get others to also

49:39

embrace that word peaceful. We'll still

49:42

disagree with each other. But the

49:45

fact that we're having this conversation, right,

49:47

that the risk of a not peaceful

49:50

period leading up to the election and

49:52

then certainly after shows how

49:55

far we've stretched

49:57

sort of our understanding of

49:59

it. what democracy is, as

50:01

well as stretch

50:04

the threat environment, which is increased by everybody's

50:07

account. You know, when you mentioned the threat

50:09

of violence or the possibility of violence, I

50:11

mean, there's polling data. There was one in

50:13

October, the PRRI poll, and it said 23%

50:16

of Americans believe that they might

50:18

have to, quote, resort to violence in order

50:20

to save our country. That

50:23

is up. It was 2021 when they asked that

50:25

question last time, and it was 15% then. I

50:29

mean, this is definitely like one of those

50:31

wrong track indicators. How many, why is it

50:33

that people feel like they are

50:35

so removed that that

50:37

violence, that last resort is already there in

50:40

their minds? Yeah, I think a part of

50:42

it is because we

50:44

need to be more transparent about

50:46

what the consequences are. In other

50:48

words, that thing has festered because

50:50

we've kind of accepted it as

50:52

a norm of how Donald Trump

50:54

campaigns and what I'm, you know,

50:56

as someone who studies terrorism and

50:58

incitement, we need to begin the

51:01

counter narrative now that this is unacceptable,

51:03

that the norms cannot be stretched this

51:05

way, that we are ready if people

51:08

are willing to take up arms against

51:10

the democratic system, right? It's not Democrats.

51:13

It's against the democratic system and

51:16

begin, as I've been saying for

51:18

a long time, begin to

51:20

shame this kind of

51:25

policy or belief. And I don't

51:27

mean Trumpism. I don't even

51:29

mean maggotism. I mean violence, violence.

51:32

That is what we have to be

51:34

collectively against at this stage. It cannot

51:36

be went away or he jokes or

51:39

he was just kidding or he didn't really mean

51:41

it. Or, you know, you're

51:43

just parsing words from him. I

51:45

think I can say with confidence he

51:48

means it. And my group

51:50

is January 6th. I

51:52

mean, I don't need another

51:54

example. It's four years later. And I

51:56

think we should feel confident saying that.

51:59

It's not. It's

52:01

just, I'm reading the data. Are

52:05

we in a better position when

52:07

it comes to Homeland Security from

52:09

domestic terror groups, domestic terror? When

52:12

the FBI or other agencies look out

52:14

at this landscape, are the

52:17

preconditions the same better or worse than what

52:19

happened to January 6th? I

52:21

say they're different, and that difference

52:24

doesn't necessarily make it better. So

52:26

one is that the organizing groups,

52:28

the ones that we know the names of, say Proud

52:30

Boys, those are now essentially, they're

52:33

not over, but they're on their knees.

52:35

And the reason why is they have

52:37

charismatic leaders who are now in jail

52:39

for serious sedition crimes. They

52:41

can't raise money. They can't recruit. So

52:44

that's good in the sense that you

52:46

don't want organized paramilitary

52:49

organizations going after democracy. That

52:51

doesn't mean that their appeal

52:53

is completely over. Look, ideologies

52:56

don't end. They

52:58

only get isolated or decreased. And

53:01

so what you are seeing, as you said,

53:03

is sort of to the ground, right? In

53:06

other words, there are people who are still,

53:08

as we see, buying into this, who are

53:10

still believing that violence is a natural extension

53:13

of our democratic differences. And

53:15

those are harder to find because they're not

53:17

online. They're not organizing. They're not meeting. And

53:19

I think that, as FBI

53:21

Director Chris Ray said recently in testimony,

53:23

that's sort of a fear

53:25

that you know is out there, but they're

53:27

really hard to find

53:30

in every instance. But

53:32

then there's another part of this post

53:34

sort of January 6, 2021 narrative, which

53:36

is the

53:39

criminal prosecutions. The criminal prosecutions

53:41

have gone very, very far

53:44

in showing that there are consequences for

53:47

this kind of behavior. People

53:50

know that they could go to jail, lose

53:53

their jobs, be isolated from

53:55

their families for even something that

53:57

they thought was kind of a joke. message

54:00

to keep playing

54:04

out. That's what the January 6th committee

54:06

tried to do. Their memorialization of January

54:08

6th was also a message

54:10

to those who think that this is

54:12

acceptable behavior. There are consequences. You

54:15

and I have been speaking for years, and one

54:17

of the conversations we had was after you wrote

54:19

a book, The Devil Never Sleeps. And that was

54:21

really almost a way of saying, look, we're going

54:23

to have, whether you call it a

54:26

crisis, a disaster, a catastrophe. We know

54:28

what happened four years ago. We know

54:31

there's a moment that we can

54:33

plan better for if there is a failure

54:35

that we can... What is it that concerns

54:38

you? What are the lessons that people need

54:40

to be thinking about when they look forward

54:42

to say, how do we just

54:44

get a peaceful transition of power? Yeah. So,

54:47

I mean, there's two lessons from that

54:49

book. The first is just embrace

54:52

the devil. I mean, part of what

54:54

I'm trying to do now is we

54:57

don't have to pretend anymore that this

54:59

is all a joke. I think it's

55:01

very important that we understand

55:03

that violence and the threat of violence are

55:05

part of our

55:07

election process for 2024. If

55:11

we can then admit that, then what

55:13

would you do knowing that that threat

55:15

environment is higher? You would prepare local

55:17

and states. You would make sure you

55:19

have lead federal agencies. All of the

55:21

things that I talk about in terms

55:23

of, don't be afraid that this could

55:25

happen. Get ready for it. I think

55:27

the second piece for me, the thing

55:30

that worries me, I think

55:32

the most is what we call

55:34

situational awareness. It is a big

55:36

country. Lots of things are going to

55:39

be going on those days. And do

55:41

we have transparency on

55:43

what the threat is doing, what

55:46

they might try to do, and then are we

55:48

able to stop them? That

55:51

worries me just because there's going to be a lot

55:53

of activity. We can prepare for that as

55:55

well. And in particular in DC, there should be

55:57

no reason that we are going to do that.

56:00

to be surprised in the District of Columbia.

56:02

We know people will plan

56:04

on rallying and we should

56:06

allow them to express their

56:08

First Amendment rights, but also

56:10

be prepared that should they

56:12

threaten violence or perform violence

56:14

that they will be prosecuted.

56:16

Julia Kiam, Homeland Security expert and a professor

56:19

at the Harvard Kennedy School. Thanks so much

56:21

for joining us. Thank you for having me. Timely

56:24

reminders and warnings there. And finally

56:26

tonight, an artistic feat worthy of

56:28

a medal. And that's exactly the

56:31

idea. Freshman Baptiste Chabassier is

56:33

writing out the name of every

56:35

single Olympic medal winner since the

56:37

modern games began in 1896. That

56:39

is 30,249 names. He says he's

56:41

inspired by the Polish

56:47

artist Roman Opalka's work

56:50

on the passage of time. And

56:52

he's certainly giving up a lot of his own time

56:54

as he races to finish the piece before the

56:56

Olympics start in Paris this July. That

57:00

is indeed worthy of a medal itself.

57:02

That's it for now. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from

57:04

New York.