0:04

Hello everyone and welcome to Almonfor. Here's what's

0:06

coming up. Arizona

0:12

becomes a flashpoint for America's reproductive

0:14

rights battle as a one hundred

0:16

and sixty year old law bans

0:18

almost all abortions. I'm joined

0:21

by Mary Ziegler, an expert on the

0:23

law, history and politics of this issue.

0:26

And one year

0:28

of civil war in Sudan, I speak

0:30

to Tom Perriello, the U.S. special envoy

0:32

to the country about what the world

0:35

must do to end the violence. And

0:38

it was his business to tell the story

0:40

of the white youth and

0:42

it is my business to tell the story of

0:44

the black man. Author

0:46

Percival Everett tells Walter Isaacson

0:49

why he's taking on Mark

0:51

Twain by reimagining Huckleberry Finn.

0:54

Go ahead. Twenty

0:57

six years since the Good Friday Agreement.

0:59

We look back at Christian's interview with

1:02

the leaders who helped bring peace to

1:04

Northern Ireland. Welcome

1:22

to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Goldrige in

1:24

New York, sitting in for Christiane Almonfor. Arizona

1:27

has become ground zero for America's battle on

1:30

reproductive rights. The U.S. Vice President Kamala

1:32

Harris is in the state today, arriving hot

1:34

on the heels of a decision by the

1:36

Supreme Court there to hold

1:38

up a civil war era law banning

1:41

nearly all abortions. A law

1:43

Republican legislators then fought to protect.

1:46

She is also going to send a

1:48

clear message that a second term for

1:50

Donald Trump means more bans, more suffering.

1:52

A line we can probably expect to hear more

1:54

of as an election season heats up. For

1:57

his own part, the former president said that the Arizona

1:59

rule polling goes too far. But that's

2:01

a stark contrast to Trump's previous campaign

2:04

for the presidency, where he repeatedly promised

2:06

to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision,

2:08

which made abortion legal across the country.

2:11

Something he made good on by installing

2:13

several conservative justices on the federal Supreme

2:15

Court bench during his term. So

2:18

what happens now, and how will this

2:20

development impact women in Arizona and across

2:22

America? Joining me now on this is

2:24

law professor and author Mary Ziegler. She's

2:26

an expert on the history and politics

2:28

of abortion. Mary, you're the perfect person

2:31

to have on for this discussion. As

2:33

an expert on the history of the

2:35

law, I would imagine you yourself were

2:37

equally shocked to hear the

2:39

ruling announced this week

2:41

in Arizona. I mean, just the

2:43

draconian measures that it takes, bringing

2:45

us back to literally a judge

2:48

who wrote it, having been appointed

2:50

by President Abraham Lincoln at the

2:52

time, his first year professional reaction

2:54

to that news. I

2:57

mean, it both was and wasn't surprising. I

2:59

mean, I think once Roe v. Wade was

3:01

overturned, we knew that a lot of

3:03

these zombie laws were on the books and it was just a

3:05

matter of time before a state Supreme Court

3:07

let one of them go into effect. So

3:10

I think it's both hard to believe

3:12

that Arizona, which is obviously a divided kind

3:14

of purple swing state, is being governed by

3:17

a law from before the Civil War that,

3:19

you know, by its terms, for example, as

3:21

you cannot perform an abortion if a woman

3:23

is going to suffer permanent

3:25

impairment of a major bodily function

3:27

or infertility by its terms, you're not

3:30

allowed to intervene in those cases. That

3:32

is shocking to me as a person,

3:34

but as someone who studies this, it

3:37

seemed kind of inevitable after Roe was overturned.

3:39

Yeah, the only exceptions are the life

3:41

of the mother, rape and incest are

3:44

not included here. And the decision, the

3:46

thought behind this decision by this very

3:48

conservative Supreme Court is that with Roe

3:50

no longer the law of the land,

3:52

that the statute is now enforceable. The

3:55

statute, from the 1800s, what do you

3:57

make? that

4:00

too cute by half given the concern,

4:02

despite the conservative nature of this court,

4:05

for a state Supreme Court to come to that conclusion?

4:08

Well, the argument in the case legally

4:10

was actually pretty narrow. Planned Parenthood was

4:12

arguing essentially that the state legislature, which

4:14

had passed a 15-week ban, wanted

4:16

15 weeks to be the policy and that

4:18

they had sort of intended to

4:20

override this 1864 law, and the state

4:23

Supreme Court didn't buy that argument. There

4:25

could be other arguments you could make.

4:27

For example, we've seen litigators across the

4:29

United States arguing that an abortion ban

4:32

like this would violate a state guarantee

4:34

of equality or privacy or a right

4:36

to life, and we may see additional

4:38

challenges to the law in

4:41

the Arizona Supreme Court. But I think that

4:43

the problem for as far as the Arizona

4:45

Supreme Court is concerned is that these are

4:47

justices who are subject to reelection. These are

4:49

unlike the US Supreme Court justices who

4:51

have lifetime appointments. And if one of

4:53

these justices were to lose their attention

4:56

election, it would be replaced by, from

4:58

a list of nominees, by the governor

5:00

who in the case of Arizona is

5:02

a Democrat. So whatever the

5:04

legal rationale for this ruling, the

5:07

justices who joined the majority, I think, put

5:10

themselves in the political crosshairs come November. Yeah,

5:12

and the court put this ruling on

5:15

hold and then sent it down to

5:17

the lower court for additional arguments on

5:19

the law's constitutionality. So this case has

5:21

not ended as of yet. That having

5:23

been said, I mean, it came 24

5:25

hours after

5:27

the former president finally issued his policy and

5:29

took a stance on his views on abortion

5:32

by saying that it's up to the states

5:34

and that that should be the end of

5:36

the discussion. Here's what he said. Again,

5:39

fighting Roe v. Wade was right from

5:41

the beginning all about bringing the issue

5:44

back to the states, pursuant

5:46

to the 10th Amendment and states' rights.

5:49

It wasn't about anything else. That's what it

5:51

was. We brought it back to the states,

5:53

and now lots of things are happening and

5:55

lots of good things are happening. So

5:59

then after... this decision in arizona

6:01

he went out and said that it

6:03

was too far kary lake who had

6:05

supported and this law beforehand and once

6:07

it actually was uh... handed

6:10

down said that that that she didn't supported

6:12

i mean it's really put republicans in a

6:14

bind in a sense all of these years

6:17

with their attempt to overturn row finally happening

6:19

it that that the dog finally caught the

6:21

car and the consequences are quite significant in

6:23

the fact that they in in his view

6:26

it should be done piecemeal up

6:28

to the state is creating a

6:30

lot of havoc um... and obviously at the

6:32

end of the day it's women in their

6:35

families and their doctors who are paying the

6:37

ultimate price yeah

6:39

i mean i think one of the things for president

6:41

trump has done it to his he's had

6:44

former trump campaign officials making

6:46

promises essentially that trump is going to revive

6:49

another zombie law called the comstock act from

6:51

eighteen seventy three just a little after this

6:53

arizona law and you get the nationwide ban

6:55

on abortion when you ask the trump campaign

6:57

about whether they're going to do that the

7:00

trump campaign doesn't answer the question and

7:02

says that president former president trump is a

7:04

supporter of state's rights so we're kind of

7:06

in a scenario where patients and doctors don't

7:09

know how these laws are going to be

7:11

interpreted and we don't know what former president

7:13

trump would do if he's given a second

7:15

term because his former officials are saying

7:17

he actually has this back door ban

7:20

that doesn't require congress his

7:22

campaign isn't weighing in one way or another

7:24

so we're kind of all in the dark

7:26

about what a second trump administration would mean

7:28

whether it would mean more of the status

7:30

quo which has been kind of this state

7:32

by state chaos or if it would mean

7:34

some kind of effort to have a nationwide

7:36

zombie law like arizona's imposed on

7:39

states with protections for abortion rights in

7:41

states that don't have protection for abortion

7:43

rights because the other trump campaign just

7:45

isn't explaining which of those positions is

7:47

right right won't answer these questions directly

7:50

either are some republicans like lindsay graham that that

7:52

say that that the president the former president just

7:54

wrong on that there should be a federal law

7:57

with a fifteen week ban uh... it from your

7:59

perspective just the

8:02

likelihood that you think something

8:04

like that could actually happen? Well,

8:07

I think the likelihood of Congress passing anything

8:09

like a 15-week ban is pretty much zero,

8:11

which is why in part I don't think

8:13

it made sense politically from Trump's standpoint to

8:16

endorse a ban that's never going to pass.

8:18

I think that's why you've seen the sort

8:20

of smarter conservatives like the

8:22

groups in the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025

8:25

saying the only way we're going to get

8:27

a nationwide ban is through a law that's

8:29

already on the books that we're reinterpreting or

8:31

reinventing as a ban. The odds

8:34

of congressional action I think are very

8:36

low. And what about Alabama? Because

8:38

we see the tentacles of this

8:40

extending far beyond just abortion, it's

8:42

even into IVF in areas where

8:45

now an embryo is viewed as

8:48

a live person and we saw

8:50

the chaos that ensued following that.

8:53

Republicans and Democrats have

8:55

really benefited over the years from IVF

8:58

there was an attempt perhaps to codify

9:00

that in Congress that didn't happen.

9:02

I mean that's just one

9:04

example. Do you expect more in

9:07

other states if not IVF than other

9:09

unintended consequences from the overturning of Roe?

9:12

Yeah, absolutely. So the the U.S. anti-abortion

9:14

movement was not focused

9:16

on taking down Roe. It was focused in

9:19

a bigger picture way on the

9:21

recognition of the idea that embryos

9:23

and fetuses are persons with constitutional

9:25

rights. And that was kind of the

9:27

thrust of the Alabama ruling. It was a

9:29

little narrower. It was that embryos had rights

9:31

just under the in the context of wrongful

9:33

death. But the court's reasoning was much broader

9:36

and suggested that embryos and fetuses just had

9:38

rights across the board full stop. If

9:40

that's right that raises lots of other questions

9:42

not just about IVF. So for example if

9:44

many conservatives believe that common contraceptives like the

9:46

birth control pill or the morning after pill

9:49

are abortistations that would violate

9:51

fetal rights. If

9:54

fetuses and embryos have rights we've seen

9:56

some in the anti-abortion movement asking why

9:58

they can't punish. women

10:01

and other abortion seekers, because of course

10:03

women and other abortion seekers are punished

10:05

for other homicide offenses. There

10:07

are a lot of other possibilities here

10:09

because if an embryo or

10:12

a fetus is a person, they're a person

10:14

for all purposes, like all contexts all the

10:16

time, not just the context of abortion. So

10:19

I think we'll have to stay tuned, but this is

10:21

sort of a Pandora's box in many ways. A

10:23

Pandora's box has created a patchwork of different

10:26

scenarios and laws in various states. If we

10:28

could put up a graphic of the United

10:30

States, just in terms of what

10:32

we've seen following the overturning of Roe.

10:35

You have

10:37

21 states that ban abortion or restrict the

10:39

procedure earlier in pregnancies now than the standard

10:41

that had been set and had been the

10:43

law of the land by Roe. 14 states

10:45

have full bans in almost all circumstances. Two

10:48

have bans after six weeks. We know on

10:50

Monday, Florida Supreme Court allowed a six week

10:52

ban to go soon into effect, but

10:54

voters will get to weigh in on that

10:56

issue in the fall. And there

10:58

is hope that the same will will

11:00

be the case in Arizona. With

11:03

abortion on the ballot now, do

11:05

you see this as a potential

11:07

game changer and solution? Not

11:10

potentially, right? So ballot initiatives have been

11:12

significant so far, all of them that

11:14

have been on the ballot since

11:17

Dobbs have passed. We've

11:19

seen several in places like Michigan

11:21

and Ohio create pretty broad reproductive

11:24

rights that trumped some

11:26

laws on the books. Michigan too had an

11:28

older law that was undone

11:31

potentially by this ballot initiative. The reason

11:34

it isn't a perfect six necessarily is

11:36

one, not every state has a mechanism

11:38

for voters to initiate this kind of

11:41

measure. And two, conservatives are

11:43

already aware of this and are trying

11:45

to find backdoor ways to get a

11:47

federal ban that would override any state

11:49

protections, which is where this Comstock Act

11:52

idea comes in. Essentially, Jonathan

11:54

Mitchell, who represented former President Trump and

11:56

his disqualification case before the Supreme Court

11:58

said to the new York Times, you

12:00

know, we don't need a ban because we

12:03

have the Comstock Act. The Comstock Act can

12:05

be interpreted as a ban that overrides whatever

12:07

protection voters put in place in their own

12:09

states. So I think the

12:12

ballot initiatives are incredibly important, definitely

12:14

a possible game changer, but not

12:16

without potential. We

12:19

know obviously that there are real life

12:21

consequences and impacts from these laws, primarily

12:23

women and families who don't have the

12:25

resources to travel to another state that

12:27

the fact that they even have to

12:29

speaks volumes. But let's just give one

12:31

example. There's Katie Cox. She sued in

12:33

Texas for the right to an obtain

12:35

an abortion after she learned that her

12:37

fetus had a rare genetic disorder. She

12:39

eventually had to leave the state for

12:41

care. Listen to what she

12:44

told NBC News about the impact of that. There's

12:47

still we're going through the loss of a

12:50

child. There's no outcome here

12:52

that I take home my healthy

12:54

baby girl. You know, so it's

12:57

hard, you know, what

13:00

the emotional trauma and toll that this

13:02

is having on women, on families. And

13:05

it's very simple to just say this

13:07

is people who are looking for an

13:09

abortion full stop. I mean, a lot

13:11

of these women have suffered unimaginably. They

13:14

may want to continue to have children

13:16

in the future and now can't because

13:18

of the risks that they take by leaving by

13:21

seeking care elsewhere. Just just give us some of

13:23

that. Yeah, I

13:25

mean, I think one of the things we've seen is

13:27

that when you have an abortion ban in place, the

13:30

meaning of abortion isn't clear. States

13:33

are not using medical definitions. And in part, what

13:35

that means is that people with wanted pregnancies

13:37

who are experiencing pregnancy complications

13:39

or stillbirth or miscarriage

13:41

are finding themselves unable to get treatment too

13:43

because physicians don't want to lose their medical

13:45

licenses. They don't want to go to prison

13:47

for anywhere between, you know, five years up

13:50

to life in prison in states like Texas

13:52

where Kate Cox was located. And the upshot

13:54

of that is that people are being turned

13:56

away and experiencing

13:58

complications that affect their

14:00

health, their future fertility in their lives. The

14:03

other upshot is that physicians don't want to deal

14:05

with these scenarios, right? They don't want to be

14:07

faced with patients like Kate Cox, where

14:09

they're being forced to choose between their

14:12

liberty or their medical license on the

14:14

one hand and denying needed care on

14:16

the other. So we began to see

14:18

a flight of physicians, especially obstetricians and

14:21

gynecologists, from states with these kinds of

14:23

prohibitions, particularly in rural areas

14:25

that were already underserved. We also see

14:27

these knock-on effects for people seeking obstetrician

14:29

and gynecological care because they're having a

14:31

harder time finding a physician to treat

14:33

them at all, even when they're not

14:35

experiencing these pregnancy complications. So

14:38

one of the things we've seen is that these

14:40

bands affect people who are seeking abortions to be

14:42

sure, but also people who aren't, right? People

14:45

who may be experiencing anything else related

14:47

to pregnancy. Mary

14:49

Ziegler, we appreciate the time and your

14:51

expertise. Thank you. Thanks for having

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Gupta, and this week on Chasing Life, people

15:37

who do not need to

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lose any weight are taking medication and

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risks with their health to be able

15:43

to get to extreme thin-body types.

15:46

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15:48

Over the past few years, she has

15:50

used her celebrity to raise awareness about

15:52

a range of issues that affect our

15:54

health and our well-being, including the pressure

15:56

to be thin and to conform to

15:59

certain body types. Listen

16:01

to Chasing Life, wherever you get your

16:03

podcasts. We

16:06

turn now to a brutal conflict overlooked by

16:08

most of the world. Next week,

16:10

it's hard to believe Sudan marks a year of

16:12

civil war, a conflict that has seen some 16,000

16:15

people killed and more than 8 million

16:17

displaced since last April. That's

16:20

when heavy fighting first broke out

16:22

between the Sudanese army and the

16:24

paramilitary rapid support forces, also known

16:26

as RSF. Next week,

16:28

ministers from across the world will gather

16:30

in Paris to raise money for those

16:32

impacted by the disaster. The United

16:34

Nations has called for $2.7 billion

16:37

in aid, of which it's only received

16:39

some 6 percent so far.

16:42

So how great is the need one year in and

16:44

what can be done to make the world pay more

16:46

attention? Joining me now on

16:48

this is Tom Perriello, the U.S. Special

16:51

Envoy for Sudan. Tom, welcome to the

16:53

show from Washington, D.C. First, give us

16:55

just a status update on where things

16:57

stand in Sudan. Who, if anyone, is

17:00

in control of that country right now?

17:03

The situation inside Sudan is truly horrific.

17:05

We have fighting that's actually escalated just

17:07

in the last day, in the last

17:09

few weeks. We have both sides using

17:11

starvation as a weapon of war. We

17:14

see countless cases of sexual abuse

17:16

against women and girls, forced recruitment.

17:19

This is a situation where a

17:21

civil war is really bordering on

17:23

a failed state at this point,

17:26

and we need to do much more both to protect

17:28

those inside. But even where Sudanese

17:30

are able to escape and make it to

17:32

the Chad refugee camps, for example, where

17:34

I was a week ago, even there

17:36

we haven't gotten enough humanitarian aid to

17:38

be able to provide full nourishment. So

17:41

we have kids going hungry and being

17:43

malnourished and a spread of disease. And

17:45

meanwhile, the world has put almost no attention

17:48

on this crisis. On this anniversary,

17:50

it is so important for the world to

17:52

step up and give the kind of support

17:54

that is needed for the scale of this

17:56

crisis. And you mentioned scale. This is the

17:58

world's largest displaced country. crisis, nearly

18:01

1.8 million refugees, as you

18:03

said, have now escaped to Chad, Egypt,

18:05

Ethiopia, South Sudan. Why is this not

18:07

getting the attention that it deserves from

18:09

the world? Well, we know

18:11

that it isn't, and certainly some of

18:13

that has to do with race and

18:15

other factors. But there's been, even before

18:17

October 7th, we were not seeing

18:19

attention on this war. From enough

18:22

quarters, the U.S. has played a

18:24

strong leadership role, both on the

18:26

humanitarian side and in pushing for

18:28

a negotiating platform earlier in the

18:30

Jeddah process and now. But

18:33

we see tens of millions who are

18:35

displaced and on the run. And this

18:37

is quickly becoming a regional crisis

18:40

as these refugee populations grow,

18:43

as more actors come into the conflict,

18:45

negative actors, including foreign fighters, being recruited

18:47

from across the Sahel. So first

18:49

and foremost, this is a humanitarian disaster,

18:52

but it's also a strategic threat at

18:54

this point. And that's where we see

18:56

a little bit of hope in the

18:59

amount of increased diplomatic energy from key

19:01

African partners, multilateral partners, and others in

19:03

the region who understand we

19:05

are hurtling to a situation that

19:08

is truly out of control, and we need to

19:10

get people to the peace table and give

19:12

the Sudanese their future back. You

19:14

recently said that scheduled talks for

19:16

April 18th in Jeddah will not

19:19

happen. Why not? Well,

19:21

we are already in the process of negotiating.

19:23

The Saudis have agreed to host the

19:26

Jeddah talks again with a more inclusive

19:28

set of actors, key actors, including African

19:31

counterparts and others in the Gulf. We

19:34

hope that they will set a date for

19:36

that very soon, but we're not waiting for

19:38

those talks to be increasing our diplomatic pressure

19:40

every day in our visits

19:42

to key capitals and our conversations with

19:44

partners. We know that now is

19:46

the time to be negotiating, and we are. And

19:48

this is a question of political will. And

19:51

if the actors inside don't have that

19:53

political will to form peace, we know

19:55

that the Sudanese people do, and

19:57

we need enough of our partners from around the region

19:59

to come to the table. together to be able to

20:01

compel that deal. Just five years

20:04

ago, the Sudanese people threw off the

20:06

Bashir regime, inspired the world with a

20:08

youth and women-led movement to demand a

20:10

democratic future. And here five years later,

20:13

we see these two fighting forces

20:15

stealing that future from the people.

20:17

They want it back, and we should stand with them. There

20:20

are competing interests here now, obviously,

20:22

as you mentioned, among international players,

20:24

the U.S., Russia, Saudi Arabia, the

20:26

UAE, and Egypt, for more influence,

20:28

really, in the country at this

20:31

point. Egypt has historically supported the

20:33

SAF, the UAE, siding with the

20:35

RSF. Do you think that that's actually

20:37

complicating the situation more than it is

20:39

helping? We definitely have

20:42

some key actors who have made this

20:44

situation far worse. We have seen the

20:46

Egyptians leaning into peace efforts

20:48

recently and bringing some of the belligerent

20:50

actors together, and we think that's constructive.

20:53

But others that are arming and fueling

20:55

this conflict not only are doing great

20:57

harm to themselves in the eyes of

20:59

the Sudanese people, at this point it's

21:01

something that's creating instability that will harm

21:03

everyone. Nobody in the region

21:05

will benefit from this becoming a more protracted,

21:08

a more ethnic, and a more regional war,

21:10

which is where it's headed. And everybody

21:12

can benefit from a stable Sudan that's

21:14

back in civilian hands with a bright

21:16

future that can benefit, have many positive

21:19

benefits for the whole region. Now is

21:21

the time for those who have been

21:23

fueling the conflict to join us as

21:25

partners in peace. We appreciate

21:28

that some of those efforts from the Egyptians and

21:30

others can contribute into the Jeddah process that

21:32

we hope will come together in the

21:35

coming weeks, and that the gathering

21:37

of donor nations in Paris on

21:39

the anniversary will also significantly increase

21:41

the humanitarian support that we need instantly

21:43

in order to try to get food

21:46

and medicine to those who desperately need it. Put

21:49

some faces, put some real life

21:52

stories and impact to this devastating

21:55

situation right now. I

21:57

mean, as we've said, 16,000 people have been killed.

22:00

18 million people face acute food

22:03

shortages. Give us

22:05

the reality on the ground with

22:08

this impact. So

22:10

I was recently at the border in

22:13

Chad and as you see hundreds of

22:15

women and children fleeing across

22:17

the border they're asked why is it

22:19

that they've come into Chad and the

22:21

answer in every interview was hunger. It

22:23

was a lack of food. Then you

22:26

go into the camps and you're meeting with

22:28

young women who faced repeated rape

22:30

and sexual assault from the RSF and others

22:33

inside and they talk about not only experiencing

22:35

these horrors but then when they finally escape

22:37

they assume that the world has heard about

22:39

it and been outraged by it and what

22:41

they see is silence. They see that in

22:43

too much of the Western world and in

22:46

the African press and the Gulf areas and

22:48

that's why I think one of the most

22:50

important things we can do now is show

22:52

that we are seeing them that we are

22:54

hearing them and we are responding with both

22:56

humanitarian aid and pressure to end the war.

22:58

We have a generation of

23:01

young Sudanese that are just doing

23:03

incredible, courageous, innovative work with these

23:05

emergency response rooms. Finding ways through

23:07

creating cash apps and local kitchens

23:10

to get support into areas that

23:12

are under horrific conditions. They are

23:14

not giving up on their neighbors.

23:16

They're not giving up on their

23:19

country and so in addition to

23:21

the almost soul-crushing horrors that you

23:23

hear you also see a resilience

23:25

and a courage that I hope everyone in

23:27

the world will see and be inspired to

23:30

join and find ways to support the Sudanese

23:32

people. Well I hope more news organizations

23:34

will be conducting interviews like this with you

23:36

because it's so important for the world to

23:38

be covering this for them to be seeing

23:40

these images and to know how many actors

23:42

are now involved that don't have the interest

23:45

of the Sudanese people, of these children,

23:47

of their futures and they have their

23:49

own interests really at stake

23:51

and that brings me to Russia. What if

23:54

any role is Russia playing now?

23:56

The Wagner Group obviously, the Yevgeny P in

24:00

the past that had supported the

24:02

rsf in this civil war and

24:04

he is no longer allies and

24:06

uh... it looks like there's been

24:08

some reconstituting uh... the

24:10

of the bhagna group what is the

24:12

situation right now as it involves russia in

24:15

their role well one of

24:17

the issues is that in the western part of the

24:19

country there's a need there's been an enormous amount of

24:21

gold and a lot of that gold trade has gone

24:23

out to and benefited uh... both uh...

24:25

the u_-eight in russia uh... and

24:27

that has uh... led to a history with the

24:29

rsf which also uh... with a

24:32

paid mercenary force uh... for the emirates

24:34

in the war against uh... yemen uh...

24:36

and i think people uh... have countries

24:38

have taken advantage of a situation uh...

24:41

in which uh... those trades were not

24:43

going through legitimate means but i think at

24:45

this point uh... they're playing with fire i

24:48

think this is the situation in which uh...

24:50

the fighting is getting to a

24:52

level of uh... of not

24:55

just intensity but complexity in terms of foreign

24:57

actors uh... that really does risk stability uh...

24:59

that will cost uh... all of those involved

25:01

so we think it is important for foreign

25:03

actors to step back from fueling this conflict

25:06

and become uh... a big part

25:08

of the peace process or at least

25:10

uh... do no harm we also see

25:12

an increased uh... increased reporting of foreign

25:14

fighters from across the the hell uh... fighting

25:16

with the rsf uh... and other

25:18

reports and i think that this is a

25:21

time uh... for cooler heads in the region

25:23

to prevail and say uh... that this is

25:25

not a uh... place where we

25:27

can afford a failed state of the scale of

25:29

fifty million people in a key strategic area of

25:32

the cell and also that the

25:34

solution here is possible uh... the

25:36

soon these people have told us the future

25:38

they want they fought for it uh... peacefully

25:40

five years ago and getting back on that

25:42

path is a situation again that can have

25:44

great benefit but what's important here

25:46

with this anniversary is not just the world

25:49

tunes in for one day this needs to

25:51

be a constant escalating level of attention and

25:53

support uh... from around the world

25:55

the u.s. has certainly stepped up in a major

25:57

way it's an issue that's got strong bipartisan support

26:00

in congress uh... to be engaged in supporting

26:02

the people of sudan and we want to

26:04

see more partners uh... join us in that

26:06

process quickly how optimistic are you

26:08

about the day after plan in the

26:10

future i mean they perhaps there is

26:12

a bit too much naivete after the

26:15

after and all the sheer after his

26:17

dictatorship multi-year dictatorship in the country that

26:19

there would be more to tranquility and

26:21

peace clearly that's not the result right

26:23

now uh... how optimistic are you that

26:25

there will be a foreseeable lasting peace

26:27

at some point in a rather than

26:29

later i think if we

26:31

can get uh... negative actors to get out of

26:34

the way the Sudanese people have a very bright

26:36

future ahead of them uh... i think

26:38

they already did a lot of the work in

26:40

no country including our own gets it right the

26:42

first time in terms of building out democratic institutions

26:45

uh... and so to learning from that and

26:47

continuing to invest over many years

26:49

in stronger democratic institutions through this constitutional

26:51

transition that needs to be restored uh...

26:54

and beyond uh... and we need uh...

26:56

the Sudanese people are very clear that

26:58

they want an army they want a

27:00

strong professional uh... integrated

27:03

and accountable army uh... and so those are

27:05

institutions that need to be grown and strengthened

27:07

over much time so we need the world

27:09

to tune in uh... now and

27:11

pay much more attention and then not stop paying

27:14

attention if we're lucky enough to get a deal

27:17

i take hope from the young people and the

27:19

women that i talked to who have no choice

27:22

but to hope uh... because it's their families it's

27:24

their life it's their future uh...

27:26

and we can't but hope uh... that they

27:28

can have just the minimum level of dignity

27:30

and security that we would all want for our

27:32

own families and sadly hope is not

27:35

enough time and that is why people like you

27:37

are doing all you can to raise the attention

27:39

of the world on this crisis and tom perriella

27:41

thank you for joining us please come back thank

27:44

you for covering this this

27:49

week on the assignment with me ari

27:52

kornish i met with alex

27:54

garland director of the new busy film

27:56

civil war this is a

27:58

movie that asked what could happen if the

28:00

system of checks and balances that hold

28:02

the democracy together fall apart. The

28:05

question is, in the film, is

28:07

this something we should be really thinking

28:09

about and guarding against? And the answer,

28:11

probably implicitly, is yes. Listen

28:14

to the assignment with Audie Cornish on Spotify.

28:20

Well, now, our next guest is making

28:22

a splash in popular culture. The work

28:24

of Percival Everett was plunged into the

28:26

spotlight when his novel Erasure hit the

28:29

big screen in the movie adaptation American

28:31

Fiction. Look at what they published.

28:33

Look at what they extended to write. I

28:36

just want to rub their

28:39

nose, isn't

28:42

it? Deadbeat Dads, rappers, crack.

28:44

You said you wanted black stuff.

28:46

That's black, right? I see

28:48

what you're doing. Despite the reimagining

29:07

of Huckleberry Finn, usurping Mark Twain's

29:09

protagonist to put Jim Huck's enslaved

29:11

sidekick at its center. Everett

29:14

joins Walter Isaacson to discuss how

29:16

he gave the iconic character a

29:18

powerful new voice. Thank

29:21

you very much, and Percival Everett, welcome

29:23

to the show. Well, thank

29:26

you for having me. Your latest

29:28

novel, you've done almost a couple

29:30

of dozen of them, but this

29:32

one is really powerful. It's a

29:34

retelling of the story of Huckleberry

29:36

Finn done from the eyes of

29:39

Jim, the runaway slave. And it's

29:41

gotten amazing reviews. I think the

29:43

New York Times said it

29:45

should come bundled with the Mark

29:47

Twain's novel. Tell me,

29:50

you think Mark Twain could have done it?

29:53

Mark Twain was telling

29:55

the story of Huck, of

29:57

an adolescent, a white.

30:00

youth is that I

30:02

sensibly represent a young America,

30:06

but he was not equipped to write Jim's

30:08

story. And

30:11

I don't fault him for this. That's not the

30:13

novel he set out to write and a

30:15

novel he was ill-equipped to write. You

30:18

know, from the very title of

30:20

the book, James, to the wonderful

30:22

closing of the book, it's

30:25

all James, not Jim, even though the white

30:27

people in the book call him Jim. I

30:29

love the closing because I asked him, are

30:31

you the runaway Jim? He says,

30:33

I am James. And then they

30:36

say, James what? And he says,

30:38

just James. How important

30:40

was that concept to you that

30:42

he owned his name, James, like

30:44

that? Well, naming is

30:47

an important business. We

30:52

name our children. We name places that we get

30:54

there first. It

30:56

represents not only a

30:58

certain power over the

31:01

world through which we move, but it's a

31:04

marker of our agency. He's

31:06

the most literate of all characters

31:08

I've read about. I mean, he

31:11

sneaks into a library, I think,

31:13

in order to read Rousseau and

31:15

Voltaire channels, the

31:17

great writers like that. And

31:20

there's a wonderful line

31:23

in the book or passage, if you don't

31:25

mind me reading it, which

31:27

is when he's on the raft with

31:29

Huckleberry Finn. And he wants to read,

31:32

but he's afraid of white people seeing

31:34

him read, I think. And

31:36

he says, I really wanted to read. Though

31:38

Huckleberry was asleep, I could not chance his

31:40

waking and discovering me with my face in

31:42

an open book. And then I thought, how

31:45

could he know I was actually reading? I

31:48

could simply claim to be staring dumbly at

31:50

the words and wondering what in the world

31:52

they meant. How could he know?

31:55

At that moment, the power of

31:57

reading made itself clear and real.

31:59

to me if I could see

32:01

the words then no one could

32:03

control them or what I got

32:05

for them. That seems

32:08

almost a theme of this book. Explain

32:10

that to me. Reading is perhaps

32:12

the most subversive thing we can do.

32:16

And it is

32:18

simply because no one knows what the words

32:20

are doing to us. No one

32:22

can see how they come into us. What we

32:24

bring to a text. Perhaps

32:28

the second most

32:30

subversive thing is writing, but

32:32

reading is certainly subversive. And

32:36

this is the reason that

32:38

fascist regimes resort to

32:40

burning books almost

32:43

immediately. It's a fear of

32:45

not only literacy, but of

32:48

information, knowledge, and control of the

32:50

language. It's an attempt to deny

32:52

participation in the society, in the

32:55

culture. It persists

32:57

now in a clash

32:59

where there are many people who

33:01

want as uneducated a voting body

33:04

as they can have. Critical

33:10

thought is important for

33:13

a vibrant and progressive culture.

33:16

There's something very striking in the

33:18

book, which is he's so literate.

33:20

As I say, he channels Rousseau

33:23

and Voltaire and others. And

33:25

yet when he speaks to whites, he

33:28

speaks in the dialect. He speaks in the dialect

33:30

sort of exactly like Mark

33:32

Twain did. And

33:35

it's weird because he kind of

33:38

understands that he has to do

33:40

that to sort of pretend not

33:44

to be literate. Well, yes. The

33:47

slaves in the novel and no doubt

33:51

in history had

33:53

to comply with the expectations. were

34:00

they were threatening. So

34:03

in James, he

34:06

actually instructs the children about

34:08

not only

34:12

what the language they call slaves, the language

34:14

that the white people expect to

34:16

hear, but the behavior and

34:18

the allowing their

34:21

oppressors to feel superior to them.

34:23

You think that's still an issue

34:26

today? Well, it was an issue

34:28

well into the 20th century, certainly

34:30

with Jim Crow and violence. And

34:36

given certain circumstances with

34:38

black youth dealing with police, you

34:42

would expect people to

34:44

worry about how they're going

34:46

to be treated by what

34:48

they say. It's sad, but

34:50

probably true. There's

34:53

a scene where

34:55

James joins a minstrel

34:57

troop, and he

34:59

ends up wearing blackface over whiteface

35:02

to disguise himself as a white

35:04

man passing as a black man.

35:07

Tell me about this concept

35:09

of shape-shifting and why

35:12

you wove it in so thoroughly into this

35:14

book. At the beginning

35:16

of the 20th century, anthropologists acknowledged

35:19

that the notion of race

35:22

and racial difference is not

35:26

legitimate. It does not exist.

35:29

However, in our culture, this

35:32

construction, this bogus construction continues to

35:34

be a defining feature not only

35:36

of people, but of the way

35:38

we behave towards each other. So

35:41

I'm constantly

35:45

fascinated by the fact that we

35:47

have a construction that is, again,

35:51

completely bogus, but

35:53

it defines so much and

35:55

is so powerful. In Mark Twain's

35:57

book, and correct me if you think I'm wrong.

36:00

here, he turns Jim's

36:04

suffering into sort of

36:06

a noble virtue that he becomes

36:08

almost the magical Negro, I think

36:10

was the word that some famous

36:12

critic used. And

36:15

you don't seem to do that.

36:17

You seem to show that his

36:19

suffering hardens him in a

36:22

certain way. Is that right? Yes,

36:24

I certainly resist that trope

36:27

of the magical, the Negro,

36:30

the inscrutable, mystic,

36:34

the exotic. Jim

36:36

is a, James is a real person.

36:39

There's a line when you're doing that,

36:41

you say, where does a slave put

36:44

his anger? Why

36:46

don't you answer that for me if you could? Well,

36:48

much of the frustration

36:50

that James feels is the

36:53

fact that he must suppress

36:55

his true feelings in order to

36:57

navigate the world. He must

36:59

suppress his true feelings and his true

37:01

character to have

37:04

his family safe. I

37:07

think that was probably the most

37:10

damaging and the most tragic feature of

37:12

the institution of slavery. You

37:14

say that James or Jim,

37:16

as he's called in the Mark

37:18

Twain novel, has to suppress

37:21

his true feelings. Let's

37:23

start with the Twain novel. Does

37:27

Jim like Huck? Well,

37:29

yes. And Jim is protective

37:31

of Huck. In fact, Jim is the only character

37:33

that really surfaces as a father figure for Huck

37:35

in The Adventures of the Huckleberry Finn. And

37:38

what about in your novel? What do

37:40

you think James feels about Huck? Well,

37:43

he certainly has protective feelings for

37:46

no other reason than that Huck is

37:48

a child. He's a

37:50

father. He has a daughter. And

37:53

he feels that it's his place as

37:55

an adult man, even though the world

37:57

is not viewing him as such. to

38:00

protect this youth. You

38:03

said of Twain that his

38:05

humor and his humanity affected

38:08

me long before you even became

38:10

a writer. Tell

38:12

me how Bach Twain affected

38:14

you. Well, curiously, it wasn't through Huck

38:16

Finn and certainly not D. Tom Sawyer

38:19

and now that I didn't much

38:21

have any

38:24

affection for. But in life

38:26

in the Mississippi and roughing it, Twain

38:31

is ironic and

38:35

his humor arises from his irony

38:37

through his observations about people. And

38:41

he's always generous with

38:44

people. He's

38:49

sometimes harsh, but his

38:51

affection for the people who are moving through

38:53

the world that he's writing about

38:56

is always present. And I take

38:58

that too. The most

39:00

famous or greatest

39:02

scene in Mark Twain's version

39:04

of Huckleberry Finn is

39:07

that moment where Huck is thinking

39:09

of writing a letter, turning in

39:11

Jim. He knows Jim's

39:13

a runaway and he knows or Huck thinks

39:15

he knows that he's supposed to turn Jim

39:17

in. I think he writes a letter. And

39:20

then he tears it up. And

39:23

he really says, well, I think

39:25

his phrase is, you know,

39:27

well, then I'll just go to hell and

39:30

do it. In your book, you

39:32

have a similar sort of scene in

39:35

which ain't I

39:37

doing something wrong, Huck asks

39:39

James? Am I supposed to know

39:41

what good is? And

39:44

James says, if you have to have a

39:46

rule that tell you what's good, then you

39:48

can't be good. How

39:51

did you address this world

39:53

famous scene of Huck deciding not

39:56

to turn in Jim and

39:58

then doing it in your own way? way like

40:00

this. Well, in

40:03

order to write this novel, I had to, in a

40:05

way, forget it. And my

40:08

way of doing that was I read

40:11

Huck Finn 15 times

40:14

in a row. I would finish

40:16

it and then start again. And that

40:19

was to create a blur of story. I read it

40:21

until I was think of it, until

40:23

I actually couldn't

40:25

recall anything clearly.

40:28

Then I haven't looked at it since

40:30

then. Then I started writing. And

40:33

what I was able to do with that

40:35

exercise was the world became

40:37

real to me and not the text.

40:41

And so the world generates the

40:45

situation. That's a pivotal moment

40:48

in Huck Finn because it has

40:50

to be. This

40:52

is where these characters are being led. And

40:55

likewise, as I inhabit this world,

40:58

I had to come to some point like

41:00

that myself. And because I

41:02

wasn't wed to the text, it

41:05

was a function of the story

41:07

that I was telling. Tell me

41:09

how your own personal background

41:11

played into your own heritage.

41:13

I think starting with your

41:15

grandfather winning a coin toss

41:18

to go to Mahari Medical

41:20

College, growing up in Texas,

41:22

South Carolina, how did that

41:24

influence your perspective? Well, it

41:26

helped that I'm familiar with

41:29

the South. I grew

41:31

up where the Civil War started, Columbia

41:33

and South Carolina. I don't

41:40

know if it affected

41:42

me in a way

41:47

that made the telling of the story

41:49

easier, but I

41:51

feel comfortable with

41:53

some of the characters that I've

41:55

had to write in this novel.

41:57

You appear in some of

41:59

your novels. as yourself, even

42:01

by name you appear as

42:04

yourself, as an English professor. Do you

42:08

in some ways think you appear

42:10

in this book as James? Well,

42:14

I think there's a little bit of the

42:16

writer in every character in a

42:19

work, but no. As

42:23

much as I might try

42:26

to have fun in some works and show

42:28

up and sort

42:30

of make fun of myself, finally

42:33

it's not me. You know,

42:36

I've read Huckleberry Finn, maybe not as often

42:38

as you have, but pretty often, and

42:41

I always get a bit stymied because I think

42:43

it's a pretty good book and then I get

42:45

halfway through and it seems to kind of

42:47

degenerate a bit. You know,

42:50

Tom Sawyer appears, the plot

42:52

sort of dwindles out did

42:55

you have that same impression when you

42:58

read Huckleberry Finn and you take such

43:00

a much stronger way to

43:02

end the book? Well,

43:04

again, being James' story and

43:06

the gravity

43:09

of everything being amplified because of

43:12

the danger present for him in

43:14

the world, that

43:17

turn is necessary. Twain's

43:19

novel, as much as I like

43:22

it, and I have to back up and say that I

43:24

didn't write James to express some

43:26

kind of dizziness action with

43:29

Huckleberry Finn. If

43:31

anything, I flatter myself by thinking that

43:33

I'm in conversation with

43:36

Twain, with this story.

43:40

But when

43:44

Twain was writing it, he stopped in the

43:46

middle and came back to it several years

43:49

later and you can feel that demarcation, that

43:51

you can feel that there's a change in

43:53

rhythm. And for any

43:56

number of reasons, the novel

43:58

might have suffered the switch. One of them being

44:00

that it's a mercenary move. Tom

44:03

Sawyer was his money-making character in

44:05

a previous book, and he

44:07

was famous for needing money. But

44:10

also, during the years

44:12

of Reconstruction, I think, as

44:15

I've learned recently, Twain was no

44:17

doubt moved by the spinning world

44:23

in which the freed enslaved

44:26

people must have found themselves

44:28

in. And the kind of terror they were

44:30

facing. And if you look at it, I

44:32

suppose the game that

44:34

Tom Sawyer is subjecting

44:37

James II is

44:41

much like the world that freed blacks

44:43

inhabited. You

44:45

say you wrote this almost

44:49

out of an homage to Mark Twain but

44:51

also out of a conversation, as if you're

44:53

having a conversation with Mark Twain. Tell

44:56

me, what are you trying to say to

44:58

Twain in back and forth? What

45:01

is that conversation? It

45:03

was his business to tell the story

45:05

of the white youth, and

45:07

it is my business to tell the story of

45:09

the black man. And

45:14

again, I flatter myself to think that maybe we work

45:16

together in some way to do that. It

45:18

does make a perfect combination, as so

45:21

many of the critics said. Do you

45:23

kind of hope that maybe in the

45:25

future a lot of people will read

45:27

these two books together? Of

45:29

course. To

45:33

have my work associated with Twain in

45:35

any way, I think is flattering. And

45:39

also, I don't think one

45:41

needs to read how

45:43

to read my novel, but

45:47

I think it adds a layer of

45:49

meaning that's important. Percival

45:51

Everett, thank you so much for

45:53

joining us. Thank you for having me. Great.

45:56

And finally, this week Northern Ireland celebrates

45:58

26 years. years of peace as

46:01

it marks the anniversary of the historic Good

46:03

Friday agreement that brought an end to decades

46:05

of violence known as the Troubles. So

46:08

as war continues to devastate nations

46:10

around the world, from Sudan to

46:12

Gaza, Northern Ireland offers us hope

46:14

that peace between neighbors is possible.

46:17

Former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell

46:19

was instrumental in helping broker that

46:21

agreement, speaking this time last year

46:23

with words more pertinent than ever.

46:26

We are living in fractured tones.

46:29

We need you. We need

46:32

your ongoing patience, stamina

46:35

and perseverance. We

46:37

need people who believe, who know

46:40

that the possible does exist

46:43

within the impossible. It

46:48

remains a diplomatic triumph for the

46:50

United States as President Bill Clinton

46:52

played a critical role in negotiations

46:54

alongside Senator Mitchell, British Prime Minister

46:56

Tony Blair and Irish Prime Minister

46:58

Bertie Ahern. But it

47:00

was, of course, the people of Northern

47:02

Ireland and its leaders who bravely chose

47:04

peace. On last year's

47:06

anniversary, Christianne traveled to Belfast to

47:08

speak with Clinton, Blair and Ahern

47:10

for a peacemaker's reunion. Here's

47:13

some of that conversation. Welcome

47:16

President Clinton, Prime Minister Blair, Prime

47:18

Minister Ahern. We're

47:20

calling this the reunion of the peacemakers.

47:23

And I just wonder, just to start

47:25

with reflections, first with you Mr. President,

47:27

of just what it means for you to be

47:29

together, to be here 25 years

47:31

later with all the principles. Well,

47:34

I think we were all privileged to be where we

47:36

were when we were and

47:39

privileged to do our part to get

47:42

this done. They actually had to

47:44

sign the agreement. You know, I was just a cheerleader

47:47

sort of and gave them

47:49

George Mitchell, which was the gift of a

47:51

generation. So I think we're

47:53

proud. I hope we are. Prime Minister Blair,

47:56

this was something that

47:58

wrecked many British governments before yours?

48:02

I was lucky in having a group

48:05

of people in Northern Ireland, leaders who were prepared

48:07

to lead and do difficult things. I

48:09

had an Irish, Tijock, an Irish prime

48:12

minister that had a, we

48:14

were coming to the end of the 20th century

48:17

and you needed people with a kind of 21st century mentality

48:19

of the world, and Bertie had that. And

48:21

then President Clinton was saying that

48:23

he was a cheerleader, but he was actually much more

48:26

than that. He was also an intervener at crucial points

48:28

in the negotiation. So we were lucky. It was just

48:30

one of these things. I

48:33

think it was a combination of circumstances,

48:37

but the individual leadership of people at

48:39

that particular moment was crucial in delivering

48:41

it. And Prime Minister

48:43

O'Hearn, was it that mostly the alignment of

48:45

the stars, so to speak, in terms of

48:47

leadership? Was it also about the people on

48:49

the ground? Yeah, the parties

48:51

of people on the ground. But I think from our

48:53

point of view, to

48:55

have the President of the United States been

48:58

genuinely interested and built to give

49:00

time and to stay up at night. I mean, we

49:02

are a small country and the things

49:05

you don't expect. And I was

49:07

just so lucky that Tony and I got

49:09

on so well. He gave just

49:11

an enormous amount of time. I

49:13

know you had 100 other items on this list. And

49:17

I realized every prime minister is busy. But

49:19

when I looked at my agenda against his

49:21

agenda, and he was prepared to come here,

49:23

spend days here, weeks here, hours,

49:26

and time and time again.

49:28

People talk about 1998, but we went on to 2007. And

49:33

the same commitment you gave, Tony, and that

49:35

was an extraordinary commitment. George Mitchell

49:37

has said, I can't remember the figures, but it

49:39

was hundreds

49:41

and hundreds of hours and days

49:44

of negotiations that finally led to,

49:46

yes, but it may have gone

49:48

the other way. Can

49:50

you recount and reflect on how difficult, actually,

49:53

I mean, it sounds like everybody was ready

49:55

to do it, but it actually was very

49:57

difficult to get the Good Friday Agreement. If

50:00

you're going to make a peace process, why are you going

50:02

to be prepared to talk to everyone? And

50:05

I remember when we

50:07

first, when I became the first

50:09

British prime minister, I actually just sat down with the Sinn

50:11

Péin people. And

50:15

this was horribly

50:18

controversial at the time. And people thought, you're going

50:20

to, Jerry Adams had been prevented. There was a

50:22

law in the UK that prevented him appearing on

50:25

UK television. And I don't

50:28

think we could have got this off the ground

50:30

if we hadn't been prepared to

50:32

talk to everyone. And then there really

50:34

is this thing about the people

50:37

being prepared to act

50:40

in a way that isn't politically conventional.

50:43

So 30 years, the Irish Taoiseach, I

50:46

mean, he could have stuck in a fairly traditional

50:48

Irish position on everything. But he didn't.

50:52

And that, we each kind of

50:54

liberated each other. And then when it comes back

50:56

to what you and President Clinton were just talking

50:58

about, it became easier

51:00

for him to intervene constructively when

51:02

it looked like everyone was being

51:04

involved. And there was a

51:06

seat at the table for everyone. And then

51:08

Mo Molem, who was at that time the

51:10

Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, actually visited

51:12

loyalist prisoners who were from the other side,

51:14

engaged in terrorist activity. And that,

51:16

again, was something that a lot of people, they

51:19

really recoiled from. But

51:22

the whole point about a peace process, you're

51:24

never going to get anywhere unless everyone's prepared

51:27

to take risks for peace. And

51:29

you either spend your political capital, or you

51:31

hoard it. And for all sorts

51:33

of various reasons, people

51:35

decided to spend it. And

51:38

I think for those politicians in Northern Ireland, who after

51:40

all were the ones that had to take the most

51:42

difficult decisions, those were the people here. I

51:44

think they were exhausted. But they

51:46

also, there was something about the moment and

51:50

the circumstances that made everyone think,

51:52

OK, come on. We're

51:55

approaching a new millennium. We're really going to

51:58

carry on with people killing and fighting. fighting

52:00

each other in a European

52:02

country in the 21st century, there was

52:05

that as well, that kind of

52:07

feeling that

52:10

change had to come and then

52:12

with the people who were prepared to

52:14

be agents of that change. So you've

52:16

all talked about expanding this model around

52:18

the world. And there have been so

52:20

many, oh, enough successful diplomatic

52:24

achievements that have lasted,

52:26

Bosnia, although that froze

52:28

the conflict, and the

52:30

aggressors seek to gain

52:33

what they wanted to in the beginning

52:35

by other means. Kosovo you intervened in, and

52:37

to this day it's peaceful and independent, and

52:40

democratic. Unfortunately the Middle East,

52:43

which you definitely all have had

52:46

a lot to do with, I

52:49

read that David Trimble, the, obviously,

52:51

the unionist leader at the time,

52:54

his deputy said that he took

52:56

this Good Friday agreement to Ramallah,

52:58

showed it to Yasser Arafat, who

53:00

was the head of the Palestinian

53:02

Authority, and said, this is your

53:04

blueprint for success. And

53:07

we know that it happened in Colombia. We saw

53:10

the government of Colombia make peace with, you

53:12

know, with their

53:14

militants and militias the FARC. President

53:17

Clinton, right now the people who cheered

53:19

on the death of the peacemaker,

53:21

Yitzhak al-Nusrah, are in government, and

53:25

there's nowhere to, it seems like there's nowhere to

53:27

go. And

53:29

what do you think, I mean, when you look at this

53:31

blueprint, why do you think it hasn't worked

53:33

elsewhere? For instance, let's just say the Middle

53:36

East. Well

53:38

the difference is in the Middle East, let's

53:40

just start with the Middle East. Tony spent years working on

53:42

this. But

53:45

they started with a different model. I

53:49

mean, when we signed the Middle East

53:51

peace agreement in 93, on the South

53:53

side of

53:56

the White House, everyone's

53:59

a self-defense. assumption was

54:02

that they had to work for a

54:04

two-state solution. And they

54:06

would argue for a

54:08

few years about what

54:11

to do with the unresolved issues and what to

54:13

do with the line drawing.

54:17

But that the Israelis

54:19

wish to remain a majority Jewish

54:21

state but to be at peace with

54:23

their Palestinian neighbors who

54:26

would have their own state if we could work out the myriad

54:29

questions that had to be worked out. So we started with a

54:31

different model. They started with

54:34

a model here that they could share the future and

54:36

that they had not enough land to fight

54:40

over and they had to work together. So I think

54:42

the real question is the Middle East

54:49

is now waiting

54:51

for somebody to answer the now what question because

54:53

I still believe that

54:57

people everywhere would

55:00

prefer to work together than be at war. And

55:02

Prime Minister O'Hare finally, Jerry Adams when this

55:04

was signed said that it's just

55:06

a bridge towards a united Ireland. Is that what it

55:08

is? Is that what's going to happen? Do you

55:13

see that happening in your lifetime? I

55:18

think what will continue on, it's

55:21

the balance between union with

55:23

the UK and unity within the island.

55:25

And those two separate traditions will continue

55:28

to peacefully put forward their

55:30

case. And Brexit I think has

55:32

heightened the debate. It's far more debate. You

55:34

can't go to

55:37

university now anywhere in the island but

55:39

they're not debating something about unification. One

55:42

way or the other. But it's been done peacefully and

55:44

it's been done open. I think it's

55:46

still a long way off. There's

55:48

a clause in the agreement that says

55:51

there can be plebiscites every so often. We haven't

55:53

had one in 25 years because we haven't

55:55

got stability of institutions. My

55:57

view is simple enough. on

56:00

teler stability of the institutions. It's

56:02

stupid to have a referendum. And

56:04

secondly, the preparatory work is only

56:06

starting. It's only starting in academic

56:08

life at the moment. So it's

56:10

a long way off, but the

56:12

aspiration will continue. But there's two

56:15

separate aspirations to stay close to

56:17

the UK. And

56:19

a part of the UK are aspiration for

56:21

United Ireland. So I think those two issues

56:24

are the identity issues. But

56:26

the good side of women, remember, you can be

56:28

British, you can be Irish, you can

56:31

be both. I think that serves as well for

56:33

now. But it would continue to be

56:35

challenged. President Clinton, Prime Minister

56:37

Blair, Prime Minister Hern, thank you all very

56:39

much indeed. Thank you. Thank you. And

56:43

that is it for now. If you ever miss our

56:45

show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it

56:48

airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch

56:50

us online on our website and all of

56:52

the social media. Thank you so much

56:54

for watching. And goodbye from the US. Thank

56:58

you.