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Hi, this is Andy Katz, host of March

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easier said, done. Hello

0:48

everyone and welcome to the Almond poor hour. Here's

0:50

where we're headed this week. Here's

0:52

a dictator and a usurper. This time the

0:54

free world finally said so. Putin's

0:57

pawns, the wife of Russia's most

0:59

high-profile political prisoner, reacts to

1:01

the year-long detention of Wall Street

1:04

Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich. Journalism

1:06

being equated with espionage, seriously?

1:10

That is a hostage situation.

1:13

Then why this State Department staffer

1:16

quit over the humanitarian crisis in

1:18

Gaza. People are shocked and appalled

1:20

by what the US government is doing. The

1:22

relative of an Israeli hostage who was

1:25

arrested at an anti-government

1:27

protest accuses Netanyahu of

1:29

deliberately slow-walking ceasefire talks. The

1:31

Israeli public is being pumped with,

1:34

together we will win, together we

1:36

will win, and we're not winning.

1:39

Also this hour, how did Elon

1:41

Musk's satellite internet system fall

1:43

into Russian hands? And

1:45

from my archive, the legendary feminist

1:48

Gloria Steinem turns 90. Welcome

1:55

to the programme everyone. I'm Christiana

1:57

Manpour in London. And we begin

1:59

this hour with Putin. Putin's political

2:01

pawns, and the dangerous hostage diplomacy

2:03

at play in the Kremlin. It's now

2:05

one year since Wall Street Journal

2:08

reporter Evan Gershkovich became the

2:10

first American journalist detained on

2:12

espionage charges since the Cold War.

2:15

He was on assignment with press credentials given

2:17

to him by the Russian Foreign Ministry.

2:20

There's zero evidence to support their charges.

2:22

And Evan, his family, and the Journal,

2:25

and the US government deny all the

2:27

allegations against him. In a

2:29

moment, I'll introduce you to Evgenia Karamorza.

2:31

Her husband Vladimir, who's a

2:33

British Russian citizen, is one

2:35

of roughly 700 political prisoners

2:39

in Russia. He's survived two

2:41

poisonings that nearly killed him, and he's

2:43

now serving 25 years for

2:46

treason after criticizing Putin's illegal

2:48

invasion of Ukraine. But first,

2:51

CNN's Fred Pleitkin explains how

2:53

we got here. No

2:56

media allowed at Evan Gershkovich's most recent

2:58

court hearing in Moscow, just this short

3:01

clip by the court's press service. Despite

3:04

a year in a Russian jail, a

3:06

defiant smile from the Wall Street Journal

3:08

reporter, no surprise, his detention

3:10

was extended yet again through June

3:12

30th. The

3:14

US ambassador to Russia ripping into the

3:17

verdict. The accusations against Evan

3:19

are categorically untrue. They are

3:21

not a different interpretation of

3:23

circumstances. They are fiction.

3:26

Evan Gershkovich was arrested and charged

3:29

with espionage a year ago while

3:31

on assignment in Yekaterinburg, central Russia.

3:35

I do not know if there are any

3:37

other cases, but the allegations made by our

3:39

intelligence services today were not related to his

3:41

journalism. The

3:46

Wall Street Journal and Gershkovich's family

3:48

strongly deny the allegations. Paulina

3:51

Ivanova of the Financial Times is

3:53

one of Evan's best friends and

3:55

still keeps in regular contact with

3:57

him writing letters. Well,

4:00

he's absolutely staying strong. He's not

4:03

allowing himself to wallow,

4:05

to get too upset by everything. In fact,

4:07

he spends most of his time in letters

4:10

to us trying to make us feel better. Gershkovich

4:13

faces a jail sentence of up to 20

4:15

years of convicted. But CNN

4:17

has reported that Gershkovich and former

4:19

U.S. Marine Paul Whelan were part

4:22

of a proposed prisoner swap with

4:24

a now-dead opposition leader Alexei Navalny.

4:28

The Russian president taunted on his

4:30

re-election day that he approved a

4:32

swap on the condition he'd get

4:34

back a high-profile Russian intelligence officer

4:36

in prison for murder in Germany,

4:38

Vadim Krossikov. The person who spoke

4:40

to me had not finished his sentence yet.

4:43

I said I agree, but unfortunately,

4:45

what happened happened. For

4:47

those close to Evan, that means

4:50

the waiting continues outcome uncertain. When

4:52

you see Putin talk about it, and in

4:54

very clear terms that this is what they

4:56

want to see happen, that they are looking

4:58

for a deal, it just

5:00

gives you hope that at some point that he will be home.

5:04

He needs to be home. He needs to be back with

5:06

his family, with his friends. From

5:08

Plakken, CNN, Berlin. As

5:10

the war in Ukraine enters its

5:12

third year, Putin gets ever stronger in

5:15

punishing any dissent at home. People

5:18

like Vladimir Karamorza remain in

5:20

jail. So now to my conversation

5:22

with his wife, Evgenia Karamorza, who

5:25

is central in the increasingly

5:27

female-led fight for human rights

5:29

and democracy in Russia. Evgenia

5:32

Karamorza, welcome to the program.

5:35

Hello, Christian. Thank you very much for inviting me.

5:38

I'd like to ask you, in light

5:40

of your husband's persistent imprisonment in

5:42

Moscow, in Russia, and also

5:44

being a one-year anniversary since

5:46

the journalist Evan Gershkowitz was

5:49

taken, his

5:51

family tries to reach him. I know you try

5:53

to reach your husband and your kids,

5:55

you try to get them to talk to him. How

5:58

do you do it? When was the

6:00

last time you managed and how long can you

6:02

talk for? The

6:06

last time I talked to my husband was last

6:09

summer, in summer 2020. My

6:12

kids were allowed a 15-minute

6:14

phone call with their dad at

6:16

the end of December of last year. And

6:19

since we have three kids, it

6:23

meant that each of them got five minutes

6:25

on the phone with their dad. And

6:28

that was the first call in over half a year.

6:31

And I obviously had to

6:35

measure those minutes with a timer because

6:37

I could not allow one of

6:40

our kids to speak to their father for

6:42

longer than five minutes. So in

6:46

the conditions in which Vladimir is being kept

6:48

now, and that is a punishment cell

6:51

in a so-called special regime prison

6:53

colony in western Siberia,

6:55

he's not allowed any visits by family

6:57

members. He's not allowed any calls. And

7:01

only under exceptional circumstances.

7:04

So in mid-February, we

7:06

celebrated our 20th anniversary and Vladimir requested

7:08

a phone call with me and

7:11

was denied the Russian, the

7:14

prison authorities told him that this was

7:16

not an exceptional circumstance, as

7:18

was not our oldest daughter's 80th

7:21

birthday. So

7:24

they told him that this would

7:27

be an exceptional

7:29

circumstance. Other than that, he's

7:31

not allowed any phone calls with him. Wow.

7:34

That is just so hard to hear. It's

7:36

really hard to hear. What must

7:38

be going through your mind every

7:41

day since Alexei Navalny died? I

7:43

don't know whether you also believe that he was killed in

7:46

prison. I do believe that this

7:48

was a murder and that the

7:50

responsibility lies with Vladimir Putin.

7:53

As to my family's situation, well,

7:56

you know what? I have been

7:58

leading with this fear. Fifteen.

8:01

One man had and survived the first.

8:03

Attack on head the first and then

8:06

no smoking. So. Than survive yet

8:08

not a one in two thousand. And. Seventeen. And

8:10

then he threw. An an independent

8:12

investigation by banning certain inside as

8:14

we know that the same team

8:16

that were implicated in the fourth

8:19

nobody says vomit had been following

8:21

my husband before first attack. So

8:23

now that he's been how of

8:25

Madison people who try to to

8:27

twice of. Course I am extremely

8:29

worried about his life and I I've

8:31

I've been. Living with his fear for many

8:34

years already. And I can see the

8:36

strain. Obviously in your in your face

8:38

and in your words your husband

8:40

is a domestic and other was

8:42

a Russian critique inside Russia of

8:44

fruits. And or Evan Gosh

8:47

coverage was arrested and jailed.

8:49

On what the Americans called from

8:51

top espionage charges The first time

8:54

a journalist ah American journalists since

8:56

the Cold was. What is

8:58

foods his aim in? I

9:00

know the difference. But what's

9:02

the aim of holding these

9:04

pawns, whether domestically or international.

9:07

Because. Ah

9:09

well, the early imprisonment or

9:11

by Evan Deskovic shower An

9:14

absolutely ridiculous grounds. And

9:16

in journalism Been acquainted with Athena

9:18

Us. Seriously. Ah,

9:20

but that is. That

9:23

it's it's would. Be

9:25

pushing and it's hostages. To

9:27

than get the ad persons of

9:30

interest to him. To

9:32

Russia in exchange for. A

9:34

delight to be through stages. The

9:37

kind of the to five o'clock in.

9:40

A tweet to the sand. In. The

9:42

country. Of

9:45

criminals, sky traders and foreign agent.

9:47

you spoke as the you when

9:49

in fact this last week and

9:51

you laid into President Putin. I'm

9:53

gonna play a little bit of

9:55

what you said. Vladimir. Putin

9:57

is not a legitimately elected president.

10:00

He is it better and a usurper. It's time.

10:02

The Free World Final the said. So. Famously.

10:05

President Biden said that you know putting

10:07

would pay for the death of novel

10:09

Nice I'm you have met your husband

10:11

was a jewel Uk. Citizens with the

10:14

bar minutes the here and and

10:16

others. What must the world do

10:18

you think? Ah

10:20

well with regard. To on Britain

10:22

biden promise I'm afraid with

10:24

so we keep it as

10:27

devastating consequences. Not had

10:29

been promised. Ah. I.

10:32

That you know I'd join my

10:35

husband in his call the Tsunami

10:37

Coin Stay the same and I

10:39

believe adopt the World. Has

10:42

to Finally. Called. That

10:44

and it's which Is that What he

10:46

is a criminal wanted by the I

10:48

C see four feet not be of

10:50

Ukrainian kids and for movie other. Crimes.

10:53

that his and he himself and

10:56

his regime has been making over

10:58

the years of his teachers. Not

11:00

be seen and recognized as a

11:02

legitimate partner who the international stage.

11:04

I want to ask you. Whether

11:06

furthermore, the terror attack that took

11:08

place of Isis claimed last week's

11:11

that kills you know, nearly one

11:13

hundred and forty people you saw

11:15

that Putin finally admitted that it

11:17

was a Be Isis. The said that

11:20

Ukraine must have had something to do with it.

11:22

Move my. I'm still struggling. You know

11:25

that the crime was committed by radical

11:27

Islamic. Whose. Ideology: The Islamic

11:29

World itself has been fighting for centuries.

11:31

It is also necessary to answer the

11:33

question why the terrorists tried to go

11:36

to Ukraine after committing a crime. Who.

11:38

Was waiting for them there. We

11:40

know that lot of it was in has

11:43

been on the scene for almost a quarter

11:45

of the century, making very similar crimes to

11:47

the ones that have been committed now

11:49

in Ukraine and in the past. And.

11:53

The. Regime used every terrorist

11:55

attack eve the country.

11:58

To. It's own. That. Were

12:03

frequent repression in the country

12:05

and to launch across. Each

12:08

other than to enter. Third and fourth

12:10

harry attack nord off and

12:12

fetch lands were used. To

12:15

start the Second Chechen War.

12:17

By and like, the bombing of

12:19

Ninety Ninety Nine are all these

12:21

the terrorist attack in the past

12:23

we use to start at a

12:25

second Chechen war. And to

12:27

justify this aggression against such,

12:30

yeah, And I

12:32

believe that line to push and

12:34

would use these terrorist attack. For.

12:36

The same. Purpose: Thank you so

12:38

much Evgeny A caramel sauce and we

12:40

wish you and your family well. Thank.

12:43

You very much Christian. Coming.

12:46

Up next to my exit interview with

12:48

a state. Farm and Stauffer who

12:50

quit over the crisis in Gaza.

12:53

Why She believes the Biden Administration

12:55

is helping enable the atrocities in

12:57

her words and then the relative

12:59

and of Israeli. Hostages tells me

13:01

wife he. Believes in his and Yahoo

13:03

government. Is deliberately

13:06

stalling Ceasefire

13:08

Thoughts: Are

13:13

the City Council Submerge Metaphysics Bar presented

13:15

by Grammarly this week. On the part,

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as soon as we discussed March Madness

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players upsets match ups and brought Fosters

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13:24

any Chance Presented by Grammarly where we

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13:51

said. Don. Welcome.

13:57

Back to the program. it's another significant.

14:00

Kind of growing descent inside

14:02

the Biden camps. Over his

14:04

handling of the crisis in Gaza,

14:06

State Department's Darfur. And now sea

14:08

lions resigned in protest this week,

14:10

I decided. To go public after

14:13

colleagues convince her to speak out

14:15

on their behalf. Rising. In an

14:17

office for she said that her

14:19

job to advocate. For Human Rights

14:22

was impossible while blank check

14:24

support for Israel quote enables

14:26

atrocities in Gaza. In her

14:28

first television interviews, I asked

14:30

her why now. I

14:33

think as it became clear what

14:35

Us policy was going to be

14:38

as far as enabling them the

14:40

ongoing military operations in Gaza as

14:42

well as they intentionally ease of

14:45

starvation as a weapon am I

14:47

initially hoped to make a difference

14:49

inside the State Department the through

14:51

than their descent cables through internal

14:54

forum I'm speaking the supervisors. And

14:57

then. Eventually became clear that from

14:59

my position inside state there was really

15:01

very little that I could do Know

15:04

is initially just going to resign quietly.

15:06

Ah my just didn't want to be

15:08

part of this government anymore. But as

15:11

I started to let colleagues know. Of

15:14

my intention they said please speak for

15:16

us, please use your voice. You know

15:18

many of these are individuals who feel

15:21

they they cannot resign, all who are

15:23

still doing very important work inside the

15:25

State Department arm. And so I decided

15:27

that I would go ahead and and

15:29

go public. With it

15:32

painful to did you would risks

15:34

did you feel you were taking?

15:36

What consequences for your life. For

15:39

your taught you have a one year old

15:41

child I believe a mortgage. Yes,

15:46

The those are all on concerns

15:48

I do think I'm I'm privileged

15:50

to know I I'd only been

15:52

at the State Department for a

15:54

year. I have an academic background

15:56

on. i had a phd

15:59

in and political science, I had previously

16:01

been in the think-tank sector, whereas I think

16:03

for a lot of my colleagues who have

16:05

spent their whole careers inside government or inside

16:07

the State Department, it

16:10

is much more challenging

16:13

to think about trying to leave, although plenty

16:15

of colleagues have said that it is something

16:17

that they're considering, that they see what the

16:19

U.S. government is doing in

16:22

such direct contravention to the mission that they

16:24

believe they're trying to uphold by working for

16:26

the U.S. Department of State and

16:29

in contravention of American values

16:31

more broadly. You just talked about using

16:33

starvation as a weapon of war. Yes,

16:36

the EU has said that. Yes, the

16:38

UN. Yes, other international organizations, but

16:40

not the United States. Let

16:43

me play this from the

16:45

briefing on Monday by the

16:47

State Department about whether

16:49

the U.S.

16:51

believe, the department that you just left

16:54

believes that that is happening. Take a

16:56

listen. We have not made

16:58

an assessment or drawn the conclusion that

17:00

they are in violation of international humanitarian

17:02

law when it comes to the provision

17:04

of humanitarian assistance in the government. They

17:06

said we do believe there is very

17:08

much more that they can do to

17:10

let humanitarian assistance go in. So

17:13

you can hear the U.S. saying that over and over

17:15

again now, I mean, really for a long time.

17:18

So they're trying to thread a needle and

17:21

they are dropping aid. They

17:24

are complaining and demanding that

17:26

more aid goes in. Tell

17:28

me what you're noticing about

17:31

maybe a shift in the

17:33

public posture of the administration.

17:38

I think it's encouraging that we have started

17:40

to see some degree of a shift, but

17:42

at present it has made almost no difference

17:44

to the lives of people starving

17:47

and being bombed inside Gaza.

17:51

I think to the extent that even

17:53

things like the U.S. being willing to

17:55

abstain at the UN Security Council is

17:58

significant, but then the administration came out

18:00

and immediately said that that was non-binding.

18:03

So in general, I just

18:05

find that the way the administration

18:07

is trying to do this, I think

18:10

they made a political calculation that

18:12

they thought that it made the

18:14

most sense politically to maintain this

18:16

extreme support for Israel, regardless

18:19

of the illegal behaviors that Israel

18:21

engages in. And now very, very

18:23

quickly, I wonder, because you

18:25

are the second to actually resign, can you

18:28

give us a sense from what you know

18:30

inside the State Department of how

18:32

much the support is? People

18:34

are shocked and appalled by what the U.S. government is

18:36

doing. Many people continue to

18:38

do the very important work inside the

18:41

State Department and continue to feel that

18:43

their efforts are making a difference on

18:45

the many, many issues that the State Department is involved

18:47

in. But on

18:50

the other hand, I do know people who

18:52

may be

18:54

considering resigning. And you can

18:56

watch the rest of our conversation online at

18:59

amunpour.com, along with all my other interviews. Up

19:01

next on the show, the relative of an

19:04

Israeli hostage on the frustrating fight

19:06

to reunite his family and

19:08

the drastic measures he took

19:10

to get the government's attention. We're

19:13

not winning. We're not winning at all. So

19:16

this charade should

19:18

stop. Welcome

19:27

back. Famine in Gaza has

19:29

brought civilians to the depths of despair.

19:32

But Israeli families continued their own

19:34

struggle to bring back the 130 remaining hostages. On

19:39

Tuesday, protesters in Tel Aviv

19:41

took to the streets, demanding the return

19:43

of those still held captive, while

19:45

symbolically locking themselves in

19:47

cages. Four of them

19:50

were detained briefly for blocking a public

19:52

road. The hero Shahamur was

19:54

one of them. His cousin

19:56

was murdered and his house was torched

19:58

by Hamas on October 7. His

20:01

uncle, aunt and cousin together with

20:03

her nine-year-old son were taken

20:05

hostage. But while the women and

20:07

children were released late November, Abraham

20:10

is still in Hamas captivity.

20:12

And his nephew, Zahiro, is

20:14

joining me now from Jerusalem. Welcome

20:17

to the program. How are you holding up?

20:20

Not so well. It's almost six

20:22

months now. And

20:25

every day you have cycles of

20:27

despair and hope and hope and

20:29

despair. What is your

20:31

honest, genuine feeling about

20:33

whether you will get your

20:35

uncle back? He was

20:38

alive according to others who've been

20:40

released subsequent, but he was

20:42

injured. Last we heard was

20:45

from, as you said, one of

20:47

the released hostages, who was a L.A.D.

20:50

medical nurse in Soroka Medical Center. And

20:52

she took care of him. Apparently, he

20:54

was taken to Gaza on the backseat

20:56

of a motorcycle, and he fell on

20:58

the way. I remind you, this is

21:00

a 79-year-old man. So

21:03

apparently he fell and he got some superficial scratches

21:05

and wounds. And

21:09

she took care of him. And she said that his

21:11

wounds are getting better. But

21:13

since then, and this was like almost

21:15

three months ago, we know nothing.

21:18

We just know that he's been moved,

21:20

and now he's probably deeper

21:23

inside some tunnel. And

21:26

we know from people that got released,

21:28

we know that the humidity there is

21:31

terrible and that the sanitary conditions are

21:34

nonexistent. And I want

21:36

to ask you about the protests you and

21:38

others are now undergoing

21:41

regularly in Israel against

21:44

the government and its inability to

21:46

bring back more of these hostages,

21:48

including your uncle. So we

21:51

said and we showed you and

21:53

others in cages, symbolic cages,

21:55

on a street in Tel

21:57

Aviv. Why do you think you were

21:59

arrested? and detained? For

22:03

the obvious reason, you know,

22:06

for police force arriving, we

22:08

are not family members or

22:12

we are people disturbing

22:14

the traffic. Yeah,

22:18

we got released real fast last Tuesday.

22:20

We spent like 134

22:25

minutes, symbolically, in

22:27

this prison cell. It's nothing

22:29

compared to what I call it

22:33

going through, of course. So the

22:35

Israeli government has, from the beginning,

22:37

said that it has two objectives, defeating

22:39

Hamas and returning the

22:41

hostages. Do you believe

22:44

that that second objective is

22:46

actually, you

22:48

know, happening? The military

22:51

maneuver going on

22:53

in Gaza is not helping

22:55

the hostages in any way. This

22:57

was, from day one, we

23:01

understood that there can't

23:03

be two prime objectives,

23:06

and they try to convince us that these two objectives will

23:09

go hand in hand, and neither

23:11

of them is

23:14

accomplished. And the Israeli administration is just

23:16

not committed enough, and it's

23:19

busy doing all kinds of political

23:21

games for political

23:24

survival. And the

23:26

hostages are wasting away

23:28

in some rat hole inside Gaza.

23:31

And we don't have time. They don't have time. Every

23:34

day that goes by. You

23:36

told us before we started the

23:38

interview that some hostage

23:40

families are hesitant to

23:43

actually go out and protest. Why

23:45

is that? There is a

23:47

very strong notion of, please

23:50

don't make too much

23:53

noise, otherwise your family

23:55

member, your hostage, could

23:58

be more move to

24:00

a lower place once a

24:03

list will be composed.

24:08

There's a lot of pressure

24:10

coming from the Cabinet ministers

24:14

stating these thoughts, okay,

24:16

be quiet, be quiet,

24:18

play along, come with us

24:20

to the delegations and

24:23

then meet with the UN

24:25

and put pressure on outside

24:27

players, but don't say

24:29

anything to contradict the official

24:32

governmental line. And the

24:35

Israeli Republic is being pumped

24:37

with, together we will win,

24:39

together we will win, and

24:41

we're not winning, not winning at

24:43

all. So this

24:46

charade should stop. We

24:49

need some international intervention because

24:51

the way things are going in

24:54

Israel now, we're jumping

24:58

straight head down to their base.

25:01

And it is really horrible to hear you

25:03

describe that, and we obviously wish you all

25:06

the best. Zihiro Shaham or thank you very

25:08

much for joining us. Thank

25:10

you for hearing my voice. In

25:13

response to that interview, a statement from

25:15

the Israeli government reads in

25:17

part, Destroying Hamas

25:20

and freeing the hostages are not

25:22

mutually exclusive goals. On the contrary,

25:24

these missions complement one another. Israel

25:27

will continue to do what is needed

25:30

to reach all its just war objectives.

25:32

Destroy Hamas, free our hostages and ensure

25:34

that Gaza does not pose a threat

25:37

to Israel and the civilized world in

25:39

the future. And up next,

25:42

why is Elon Musk's satellite internet

25:44

system getting into Russian hands? And

25:46

how does that impact drone warfare

25:48

in Ukraine? A CNN

25:51

investigation when we come back. Welcome

26:03

back to the program. Elon Musk's

26:05

Starlink internet satellite system has

26:07

been crucial to Ukrainian troops

26:10

on the battlefield, especially its

26:12

drone pilots, but now it's being

26:14

used against them by Russian soldiers who

26:16

aren't supposed to have access to it

26:18

in the first place. This

26:21

week's investigation by correspondent Nick

26:23

Peyton-Walsh shows how Russia appears

26:25

to be bypassing US sanctions

26:27

to exploit this vital modern

26:30

warfare technology. Ukraine's

26:34

newest target is something they've long cherished

26:36

themselves. Small

26:38

white rectangular satellite internet

26:40

terminals from Elon Musk's

26:42

Starlink, apparently in Russian

26:44

hands, and hit by

26:46

Ukrainian drones. They're not

26:49

supposed to be there at all, according to

26:51

Musk and US sanctions. Here,

26:56

a Russian soldier explains frontline

26:58

damage to one of their

27:00

Starlink units, connecting attack drones

27:02

and command centres. While

27:07

Russia has officially denied their

27:09

use, their army of crowdfunders

27:11

openly flaunt Starlink purchases in

27:13

third countries. There

27:16

is one key supplier showing off

27:18

store-bought drones and five Starlinks, too.

27:26

The look on their faces does not

27:28

suggest they're too confident in coming home. She

27:36

has posted other images of Starlinks

27:39

and drones bought. Across

27:43

the east and south of the frontline,

27:46

said Russia, has near copied their system

27:48

of attack drones, using

27:50

Starlink's internet signal to control

27:52

dozens of single-use first-person view

27:55

devices to swarm Ukrainian positions.

28:00

An intercepted signal one unit told us

28:02

they had hacked from a Russian drone.

28:05

You can see it maneuvering into a

28:07

Ukrainian target. Near

28:09

the heavily contested village of Robotina, down

28:11

in the bunkers where the drone wars

28:14

are fought, this change is huge and

28:16

has come with an apparent complication for

28:18

the Ukrainians too. Their

28:21

starlink speeds have been getting slower,

28:23

said this commander. I

28:25

am happy by the aim of putting

28:27

what I am being given an offensive

28:29

flag in this state. My

28:34

most so-called information is that

28:37

Russian people are given the time, taking

28:39

the long trip and considering theming

28:42

of the frightening striking, the probations

28:44

are very different. Another

28:47

operator in the same area reported problems

28:49

in the last month. Some Where I

28:51

would say texting The

29:17

Craft Most thinking is one of these things While

29:20

Ukrainian officials went public with their

29:23

concerns six weeks ago, they've since

29:25

gone silent, they're perhaps quietly pressuring

29:27

Musk, who experts think can vet

29:29

who uses terminals, even if that's

29:31

trickier in contested areas. It's

29:34

possible SpaceX can't appoint each

29:36

terminal and they know who

29:38

is who, but the

29:40

problem is to identify extra owner

29:42

of the account. Musk is

29:45

a big child, so it's important

29:48

to talk to him and don't

29:51

offend him, because he

29:53

might do some quick decisions

29:55

that might be not very

29:58

good for everyone. SpaceX

30:00

and Starlink did not respond to requests

30:02

for comment. They said previously they do

30:04

no business with the Russian state or

30:06

military, and if a sanctioned party uses

30:09

Starlink, we investigate the claim and take

30:11

action to deactivate the terminal if confirmed.

30:14

But as Ukraine's other lifelines wobble or

30:17

dry up, space-based

30:19

internet is one they can't afford to

30:21

see slow, lose to the Russians,

30:23

or lose at all. Nick

30:26

Peyton-Walsh, CNN, London. And

30:29

far from the battlefield in Ukraine, a

30:32

different kind of struggle. The fight for

30:34

women's rights and the icon

30:36

at its center. Gloria Steinem, the fiercest

30:39

feminist of them all, turns 90. Welcome

30:51

back to the program. From Russia's war in

30:53

Ukraine to Israel's war against Hamas,

30:55

it is women who often suffer

30:57

the most. According to the United

30:59

Nations, the world is failing, girls

31:01

and women, and the fight for

31:03

equality and justice is far from

31:06

over. That has been Gloria Steinem's

31:08

life's work, the world's most

31:10

famous feminist activist, a trailblazer

31:12

of the women's rights movement.

31:15

Steinem's tireless advocacy and undercover

31:17

journalism reshaped norms and turned

31:19

her into a global

31:22

icon for women. This week,

31:24

fittingly, during Women's History Month,

31:26

Steinem turned 90. And

31:28

from my archive, one of my interviews with

31:31

her almost 10 years ago, right after

31:33

she wrote her memoir. When

31:37

you look back and you write this book,

31:39

which is really instructive and entertaining at the

31:41

same time, we've been

31:43

through several waves of feminism. Where

31:46

are we now? Because some people think the fight

31:49

is over, is it? The

31:51

people who say the fight is over, the same

31:53

people who used to say to me, it's impossible. It's

31:56

against nature. And now their

31:58

current form of obstructionism... is it's

32:00

over. No, no, no, we've just barely

32:02

begun. And obstructionism, you

32:05

choose that word, obviously, with consideration.

32:07

I mean, you still feel that

32:10

the women we are being obstructed.

32:13

Well, you know, we're all born into

32:15

this very patriarchal culture.

32:17

It takes different forms around

32:19

the world. But the

32:21

basis of it is that reproduction

32:24

must be controlled by men, and

32:26

that means controlling women's bodies.

32:28

It may take different forms,

32:31

religious forms, political

32:33

forms, but that is the

32:35

basic impulse. And so, you

32:37

know, it's quite radical to say we

32:39

are seizing control of reproduction, which we

32:41

are. And it makes perfect sense because

32:43

these are our bodies. And

32:45

this was also the form of governance

32:48

for millennia before

32:50

patriarchy came along. Again,

32:52

going back to India, you were there,

32:55

you observed the female prime

32:57

minister, Indira Gandhi, being the

32:59

first, controversially, to enact

33:01

a family planning program.

33:04

But you also know that there is

33:06

infanticide there, and obviously girls are the

33:08

ones who get aborted. We

33:13

talked also to an activist

33:15

recently about the continuing abomination

33:17

of female genital mutilation. And she

33:19

put it in these terms

33:21

that you're talking about. Just listen and we'll talk about

33:23

it. I

33:27

understand one of the priorities for you was to

33:29

have a cabinet that was gendered balanced.

33:36

Because it's 2015. All

33:43

right, that's the right soundbite at the wrong moment, but let's

33:45

just talk about that then. We'll get back to that. That

33:47

was good news. That was really good

33:49

news, exactly. That's the recent prime minister

33:52

of Canada saying it's 2015 and

33:54

we need gender balance in

33:57

the cabinet. That

34:00

must have sounded great to you, right? I mean, that went

34:02

viral. Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect

34:04

sense. And we have made progress in a

34:06

lot of ways, but we

34:08

still discuss, say, foreign policy

34:11

and terrorism and all the disasters

34:14

that you report as

34:16

if it was separate from

34:18

the women's movement. The women's movement is

34:20

a silo over here. Foreign policy

34:22

is a silo over there. And never the

34:25

twain shall meet. How do you think the

34:27

twain meets? The twain meets because

34:29

the single biggest predictor of

34:31

violence in a culture has always

34:34

been the polarization of

34:36

roles, hypermasculinity on one

34:38

side, hyperfemininity in women

34:41

and reproduction control on the other side. And

34:44

if we simply looked

34:47

at that as an indicator, we would

34:49

not, for instance, have supported, say,

34:51

the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who

34:53

turned into the Taliban because

34:56

they were way more hostile

34:59

and way more violent towards

35:01

females than the regime we

35:03

helped them overthrow. Let

35:05

me play that other sound bite because it goes to the heart

35:08

of what we're talking about. This is

35:10

about female genital mutilation. There's

35:13

a reason why our

35:15

genitals were specifically targeted. Women

35:19

are not supposed to have sexual pleasure.

35:21

They're not supposed to experiment with their

35:23

sexuality. So we need to

35:25

ask ourselves why is there

35:27

such a focus on women's sexuality?

35:29

Yes. I

35:32

mean, it's taking away women's

35:34

sexual will, women's sexual pleasure,

35:36

and turning them into nothing but

35:39

a controlled means of reproduction.

35:43

That's an extreme form of it. But

35:45

it is in gradated forms in

35:47

many cultures. reproductive

36:00

rights movement since Roe versus

36:02

Wade was overturned. Now, when

36:05

we come back, a Palestinian poet's

36:07

terrifying escape from the wreckage of

36:09

Gaza and his moving tribute to

36:12

the home who left behind. Welcome

36:23

back. After seeing his family's

36:26

home destroyed in Gaza and fleeing

36:28

one bombing after another, Palestinian

36:31

poet Mossab Abu Tohar eventually

36:33

found refuge in Egypt with his

36:36

wife and three children. He

36:38

was only allowed to cross the border on

36:40

account of his youngest son being born in

36:42

America. Mossab has been writing

36:44

about the terrifying journey they made. As

36:47

part of our longer conversation airing next

36:49

week, I asked Mossab to read a

36:51

poem inspired by his life in Gaza

36:54

and the home he and his

36:56

family left behind. What

36:59

is home? It is

37:01

the shade of trees on my way to

37:03

school before they were uprooted. It

37:05

is my grandparents black and white within

37:08

photo before the walls crumble. It

37:11

is my uncle's prayer rug where dozens

37:13

of ants slept on wintery nights before

37:15

it was looted and put in a

37:17

museum. It is

37:20

the oven my mother used to bake bread

37:22

and roast chicken before a bomb

37:24

reduced our house to ashes. It

37:27

is the cafe where I watched football

37:29

matches and played. My

37:31

child stops me. Can

37:33

a four-letter word hold all of these?

37:37

All the elements of a home gone by.

37:40

And you can watch that full conversation

37:42

along with all my interviews online at

37:44

amanpour.com. And don't forget

37:47

you can find all our shows online at podcast.com

37:49

and on all other major platforms.

37:53

I'm Cristiana Manpour in London. Thank you for watching and

37:55

see you again next week. Hi,

38:05

this is Andy Katz, host of March Madness

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