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lower. That's shopify.com/ Tech. Hello

1:14

everyone and welcome to Amman 4. Here's

1:16

what's coming up. As

1:21

our protesters take to the streets

1:23

across Israel, calling for the removal

1:25

of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, we

1:27

get the latest from Tel Aviv

1:29

with Israeli journalist Ronan Bergman. Then...

1:32

My friends' whole family were buried under the rubble of

1:34

their house. I see my tragedy

1:37

as something very similar. Palestinian poet

1:39

Mossab Abu Toha tells Christian

1:41

how his family made the

1:43

harrowing journey out of Gaza.

1:47

And... a blow to Turkey's

1:50

President Erdogan, as the country's main

1:52

opposition party claims victory in key

1:54

local elections. We're on the

1:56

ground in Istanbul. Also ahead...

1:59

We have to do it. delay the age at which

2:01

they get into social media. The

2:03

anxious generation. NYU professor

2:06

and psychologist Jonathan Haidt tells

2:08

Hari Sreenivasan how a great

2:10

rewiring of childhood is causing

2:12

an epidemic of mental illness.

2:32

Welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Golodrega in

2:34

New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. Iranian

2:38

media is saying that the country's consulate

2:40

in Syria has been destroyed in an

2:42

airstrike, killing a senior commander in the

2:44

Revolutionary Guards Quds force. Speaking

2:46

to reporters, the Iranian ambassador to Syria says

2:49

at least five people were killed in the

2:51

strike, and he says Israel was behind the

2:53

attack. So far, the Israeli

2:55

defense forces are declining to comment. Now

2:57

this comes as thousands of protesters rose

3:00

up in cities across Israel in

3:02

the largest demonstrations since October 7th.

3:05

People taking to the streets over the weekend

3:07

to demand more to be done to bring

3:09

back Israeli hostages and calling

3:11

for the removal of Prime Minister Benjamin

3:13

Netanyahu in fresh elections. Joining

3:16

me now on this is staff writer for

3:18

the New York Times Magazine journalist Ronan Bergman,

3:20

who's been following this story closely for us.

3:23

Ronan, welcome to the program from Tel Aviv.

3:25

You know, when we first heard about this

3:27

attack and strike in Syria, I thought you

3:29

were the perfect guest to have on, given

3:32

your book, Rise in and Kill First. These are the

3:35

types of attacks that you've documented

3:37

over Israel's history. As we noted,

3:39

the IDF has not responded or

3:42

taken responsibility to this attack just

3:44

within the last few hours. But

3:47

it is reported that a high-ranking

3:49

IRGC official was killed. How significant

3:52

is this moment? Very significant. The target's name

3:54

normally is the And

4:02

he is the commander of the

4:04

IRGC, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, both

4:06

in Syria and in Lebanon, practically

4:10

being one of the most senior veteran

4:12

exterior officers

4:15

of the guards, second

4:19

in command only to Kayani,

4:21

the force commander.

4:25

He has control, he has control.

4:28

The two, one of two of

4:30

the main areas where it could

4:32

force the foreign operation

4:34

and arm of the guards

4:37

working both Syria and Lebanon,

4:39

critical strategic areas, both

4:41

for Israel and for Iran. And

4:43

the fact that Israel was able,

4:47

Israeli military intelligence was able

4:49

to identify and

4:52

in Israel where he is, and then Israel took

4:54

the decision to

4:57

kill him, destroy the building, a

5:01

military headquarters just by the

5:04

Iranian embassy in Damascus. This is very,

5:06

very important. And of course, not

5:09

just the killing of such an

5:11

important person, that

5:14

Israel attributes a lot of

5:16

the initiation of operation against

5:18

it, both from Lebanon,

5:20

from Syria and from other

5:22

places, but also important to

5:24

see how this develops. Both

5:28

Iran's reaction, what Iran will do,

5:32

someone said this is not like

5:35

poking Iran in the eye, this is like

5:37

slapping Iran hardly in the face from the

5:39

point of view of Israel. And

5:42

also what Hezbollah will do because the

5:44

late Mahatma

5:47

Devi was close

5:50

associate, close friend I

5:52

believe of the secretary

5:54

general of Hezbollah, Nazhat

5:57

al-Nasrallah. This

6:00

will put both sides,

6:03

Iran and Hezbollah, into

6:05

a dilemma how to

6:08

continue from here. As

6:10

you note in your extensive

6:12

reporting, these types of decisions aren't made

6:15

lightly. There are

6:17

many times where Israel, if Israel

6:19

is responsible, where Israel knows where

6:21

certain high-level officials are in other

6:23

countries and chooses not to act.

6:25

So in your view in these

6:27

early hours, was this move more

6:29

of a preemptive one or is

6:31

it one to send a message

6:34

to Iran, to Hezbollah, not

6:36

to act? I

6:41

think both, but not just those reasons, but

6:43

this is pure assumption. It's not something I

6:45

know. We

6:47

are that he was a

6:50

prime target, at least for collection of intelligence

6:53

from the point of view of Israel for

6:55

decades. But

6:57

Israel didn't kill it. As much as

6:59

Israel didn't kill many of the

7:01

Iranian and Hezbollah operatives that it had

7:04

during the beginning of the war. The fact that

7:06

Khazan, Astra, and Iran decided

7:08

to create a low-intensity conflict with

7:10

Israel from the point of

7:12

view of Israel, I'm provoked from their point of view,

7:15

showing solidarity with Hamas

7:18

and with the Palestinian government. And

7:20

the fact that this started, it gave

7:22

Israel an opportunity to

7:25

target a lot of people and

7:27

facilities that Israel

7:30

didn't or decided not to do

7:32

before because of fearing

7:34

escalation. Now as

7:37

ironic as it sounds, both

7:40

sides, so Iran and Hezbollah on

7:42

one hand and Israel on the other, are

7:44

doing to each other things that

7:46

if even a fraction of them

7:49

happened a year ago, so before

7:51

October 7, we would be

7:53

in a regional war long ago. Now

7:55

because both sides are not interested in all-out

7:58

war, then they are not interested continue

8:00

to know those things, and I'm

8:03

not very good with assessing the future. But

8:06

the current assumption is that even

8:08

this event, which is very

8:11

significant, will not lead to

8:15

an escalation to all of the war.

8:18

Yeah, the landscape, you're right to note, the

8:20

landscape has changed significantly since October 7th. I

8:23

mean, we've noted that in previous comments

8:25

made since October 7th by Hassan Astraala,

8:28

if they had been made prior to October

8:30

7th, everyone's hair would be on fire. But

8:32

yet his comments seem to send a message

8:34

and parsing through the words and the language

8:36

that he wasn't looking for an escalation at

8:38

this point. Let me ask

8:40

you about another story that we've been

8:42

covering, and that is Israel ending its

8:45

two-week-long siege at Al-Shifa Hospital. Israel

8:48

says that this had been a precise anti-terror

8:50

mission and that it killed 200 militants

8:52

and had gone to great lengths

8:55

to avoid any civilian deaths or

8:57

injuries. But the images are pretty

8:59

shocking to see after the

9:02

IDF had left the hospital that

9:04

CNN had been provided

9:06

with and what we've seen from eyewitnesses.

9:09

Talk to us about what more you're

9:11

learning in your reporting about what actually

9:13

took place. And the fact that Israel

9:15

had to return to the north, to

9:18

Al-Shifa, I know Israel is saying that

9:20

they've received a lot of high-level intelligence that they're parsing

9:22

through right now, but even the fact that they had

9:24

to return after they had left the north, that

9:28

is significant in and of itself, no? Yeah,

9:32

let me start with the last point that you

9:34

raised. I think that if

9:37

any one of the Israeli officials gave an

9:39

impression as if Hamas, even

9:41

if just in the north, even

9:43

if just in the city of

9:45

Gaza, is totally destroyed

9:48

or whatever expression they use,

9:51

that all the military infrastructure

9:53

is disassembled, what happened

9:55

in Shiba just proved that it's

9:57

wrong. It's to take what

10:00

Israel claims that basically

10:02

Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic

10:04

Jihad regrouped and re-established their

10:06

headquarters inside a shifa

10:08

hospital. That's one. The

10:11

second, what it does, I think, also

10:14

show, and Israel still needs to

10:17

explain what exactly it found there

10:19

and who exactly they

10:21

killed. They released some of the names and

10:24

who they detained. They said

10:26

they mentioned a few people. It

10:29

does show, this is not strategic.

10:32

It's a tactical intelligence achievement, an

10:35

operation from Israel. But

10:39

it does show, and this is the

10:41

important looking towards the future, that Israel

10:43

does not hesitate to

10:45

launch those intelligence-derived

10:47

operations on

10:50

focused targets. It

10:53

calls for the future of the God

10:55

of truth, that if a

10:59

no-man's land, if a lawless country

11:02

will become this

11:04

place, then the

11:06

other will become such that

11:09

Israel will see itself doomed,

11:13

privileged, or

11:15

must take more and more action.

11:19

And as long as Prime

11:21

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu doesn't agree

11:23

that Israel will

11:25

discuss the next

11:28

day to bring in the Palestinian

11:30

Authority, bring some kind

11:32

of alternative to this,

11:35

Israel is not doing that, and he doesn't agree to

11:37

that. As

11:39

long as they can cause

11:41

the population, the refugees

11:43

are not presented with some kind

11:46

of reliable alternative,

11:51

then Hamas will regain control of

11:53

every territory that Israel withdrew. Then

11:57

we will just be doomed. And

12:02

this vicious cycle will just continue another theme

12:04

that you constantly write about that's

12:10

highlighted in your book are all of these

12:12

tactical achievements and without strategy,

12:14

without a long-term strategy. And here we

12:16

are right now, and that leads me

12:19

to my question about what we're seeing

12:21

on the streets of Israel once again,

12:23

the numbers of protesters now beginning to

12:25

mirror what we saw before October

12:29

7th with the judicial

12:31

attempts and reforms. We're

12:33

seeing 100,000 people over this weekend, the

12:36

most we've seen turnout. Obviously, they

12:38

have different agendas, and it

12:40

seems that their goal is not

12:42

necessarily to end the war, but

12:44

to bring A, to bring the

12:46

hostages home and to see a

12:48

change in leadership. And

12:51

Bibi Netanyahu finds himself in a

12:53

position like he's never been before,

12:55

pulled from both sides, from the

12:57

right and from the left. Again,

13:00

Israel's longest-serving prime minister can't rule

13:02

him out right now. But

13:05

how weakened and vulnerable, in your view,

13:07

is he at this moment? I

13:10

think that yesterday he gave the worst speech ever

13:13

with many lapses

13:15

and linguistic mistakes. He

13:18

used to be perfect in reading the speeches,

13:21

making the speeches, be ready for the speeches.

13:23

Yesterday he was not fairly

13:26

confused or concerned

13:29

by other things. I

13:32

think he made a speech to push back

13:34

on claims that he's not putting the hostages

13:36

at the top of his priority, knowing that

13:38

the trends in Israel, the

13:41

majority, are supportive of a deal.

13:44

And I think he is trapped between this

13:46

kind of popularity for the deal

13:49

and support for the hostages to

13:51

come back, even in great

13:53

pride that Israel will need to pay, and the coalition,

13:58

his... extreme

14:00

right-wing partners are

14:05

threatening to leave if he will

14:07

agree to make a deal with

14:10

Khmer. But the fact that the more important

14:12

fact is that the

14:15

process, it seems,

14:17

has re-ignite. The

14:20

protesters that were not enthusiastic to

14:22

do so as long as the war goes

14:25

on realized that the war

14:27

is basically over in

14:30

the sense of robust

14:32

military maneuvers in Sargaza. And

14:36

they say they sort

14:38

of unite between those two targets

14:43

that they call for. One is

14:46

the government to sign a deal

14:49

to do everything to bring those hostages

14:51

immediately back and the

14:53

same as the mistrust of

14:56

the government calling for election. The

14:59

importance of the remedy

15:03

to the prisoners

15:05

and the P.I.P.O.W.

15:08

and the M.I.A. is something

15:11

so inherent to the Israeli genome that

15:14

it is very, very powerful. And I

15:16

think that now it's the main engine when

15:18

a lot of people believe the Prime Minister Netanyahu

15:20

is not doing enough, maybe the contrary, maybe

15:23

not wanting to end the war, but wanting to continue

15:26

the war, not to face the investigation,

15:28

the inquiry afterwards and the

15:30

political consequences. And

15:33

therefore, they don't believe

15:35

many of the protesters don't believe Netanyahu

15:38

and don't believe his intention

15:40

when it comes to signing

15:43

a deal and therefore accelerating

15:45

the pressure on this government.

15:48

Ronan, you mentioned in the 30 seconds we

15:50

have left now, you mentioned that major operations

15:52

inside Gaza have really come to an end,

15:54

but we haven't brought up Rafa and the

15:56

Prime Minister's insistence that the Israeli, the IDF

15:58

still has to go. into

16:01

Rafa despite a lot of

16:03

consternation and hesitation from the

16:05

West, particularly the United States.

16:08

Do you see that operation moving forward

16:11

at this point? I

16:14

see preparation moving forward. I

16:17

think that the decision has not yet been made, but

16:20

at least as a leverage, the

16:23

pressure on Hamas to sign the

16:25

deal, Israel is making all the

16:27

noises, the signs, the recruitment of

16:30

reserves in order to do that.

16:32

I still believe that

16:35

there is a room for decision making

16:37

and I assume the next

16:39

two weeks, so the 10 days

16:42

to 14 days left in the Ramadan are

16:45

critical in the exchange

16:47

between the US and Israel about making

16:49

the call whether to invade Rafa or

16:51

not. And this comes

16:53

at a point where tensions are at

16:55

their highest point between the United States

16:57

and Israel since October 7. Ronan

17:01

Bergman, thank you so much for your time as always.

17:07

Hi, this is Andy Katz, host of March

17:09

Madness 365 presented by Grammarly. This

17:11

week on the podcast, tune in as we

17:13

discuss March Madness players, upsets, matchups and bracket

17:16

busters. Listen to March Madness

17:18

365 with Andy Katz presented by Grammarly

17:20

wherever you get your podcasts. Grammarly

17:23

is a secure AI writing partner that gives your

17:25

team an instant first draft in a few clicks,

17:27

not a few hours. Companies that use

17:29

Grammarly save an average of 19 days per

17:31

employee per year. Grammarly works seamlessly

17:33

across 500,000 apps and websites. Get

17:36

personalized on brand writing help everywhere your

17:38

team works. Learn what better

17:40

writing can do for your company at grammarly.com. Grammarly,

17:44

easier said, done. Until

17:48

now in Gaza, the 14-day siege of

17:51

Al-Shifa Hospital has come to an end.

17:53

With Israeli forces withdrawn, what's remains looks

17:55

like a scene from a horror movie.

17:57

To quote a journalist on the ground

17:59

there. He described

18:01

decomposing bodies, starvation and dehydration,

18:04

and corpses crushed by bulldozers.

18:07

Israel insists that it killed more than 200

18:09

terrorists during its operation there. Airdrops

18:11

continue, but it is far from enough.

18:14

Early on in the war, Christian spoke

18:17

with Mossab Abutoha, a Palestinian poet living

18:19

inside Gaza. And even at

18:21

the outset of the conflict, he said

18:23

resources were low. We

18:26

are running out of water, running out

18:28

of electricity, we are running out of

18:30

medicine, and we are full of fear

18:32

of what has happened and what's going

18:35

to happen. In my house now,

18:37

I have about four families. I

18:39

have my family, my brother's family, and

18:41

two sisters of mine who had to move

18:44

to our place because the house was critically

18:47

damaged by a neighboring bomb. Well

18:52

their home was destroyed not long after

18:54

that interview. Mossab eventually seeking refuge in

18:56

Egypt with his wife and three children.

18:59

And he told Christian about their harrowing

19:01

journey there. Mossab

19:05

Abutoha, welcome back to the program. Thank

19:07

you, Christian. You're in Cairo now, but

19:10

the last time we spoke to you

19:12

in Gaza, there had been an Israeli attack

19:14

and you basically left. You were able to

19:17

get out of Gaza. Do

19:19

you know what's happening inside with

19:21

your family right now? What

19:24

I know is that my parents and my

19:26

siblings, three of them and their children, the

19:28

youngest is one month old. The

19:31

boy was born last month. They

19:33

are still stuck in Jabali camp. They

19:37

are unable to find food. I was on a

19:39

court with my younger brother,

19:41

who is the father of this one month old baby.

19:46

He told me that the last time they could

19:48

eat some meat was 16 days

19:50

ago, which was before the start of the

19:53

holy month of Ramadan. And

19:55

he was, I mean, I'm honest, he was crying

19:57

to me. He said, we have been looking for

19:59

food. We have been running after

20:01

some food that

20:04

is dropped from the sky by some

20:06

planes. And by the way,

20:09

some of the food that was dropped fell

20:11

in the sea. And some

20:13

of the people went inside, went into

20:15

the sea, and some of them drowned.

20:18

The last time I was able to hear my

20:20

mother's voice was also 20 days

20:22

ago. There is

20:24

no way of hearing what is happening to

20:27

your family except when there is any breaking

20:29

news that God forbid would mention the names

20:31

of your family members. Most

20:33

of you know, you talk about

20:36

this horrible, horrible hunger and starvation

20:38

that is being experienced by your

20:40

own family. And you

20:42

know, it is Ramadan as we said. It

20:44

is meant to be a time when families

20:46

can get together and at least once a

20:48

day have a break fast, get

20:51

together around food. What

20:54

are they doing? Are they able to even congregate?

20:57

Well, in fact, many of

20:59

the families are scattered around the

21:01

Gaza Strip. I have two

21:04

siblings who are in Rafahne right now living

21:06

in tents. They are separated from my parents.

21:08

They cannot return to be with my parents

21:10

and other siblings in North Gaza. So

21:13

families are separated from each other. There

21:16

are other families who lost most of

21:18

their family members. There are families that

21:20

are no longer with us this

21:22

month. And I think if

21:24

you remember that convoy that Israel

21:27

took in several weeks ago where

21:29

over a hundred people ended up

21:31

dying, trying to get food on

21:33

that convoy. There was shooting. There

21:35

was a stampede. One

21:38

of your relatives also was killed there, right?

21:41

It was not a relative of mine. It

21:43

was a very close friend of mine named

21:45

Nasim. I read some news

21:48

about the killing of the whole family.

21:50

I scrolled down to look at the

21:52

previous news from that page that listed the names

21:54

of the people. And I Found

21:57

that my close friend was killed in that massacre,

21:59

the Weak massacre. So the family.

22:01

We. Mourn the death of their

22:04

own. The Statoil. One

22:06

day before they themselves were buried under

22:08

the rubble of the house. Down family

22:10

was skin and it is no one.

22:13

Who. Was list alive to

22:15

mourn the death of Be. That.

22:17

The family members that the other

22:20

relatives who was killed of mine.

22:22

Was my wife's until she was born.

22:25

This and the music's He was kidnapped

22:27

from inside and underscored what he was

22:29

tutoring and bit May and or Gaza.

22:31

He was taken along with other young

22:34

men. The next day he

22:36

was released so she went back to the school

22:38

what he was taken from to your reunited with

22:40

his wife and his to it's and and then

22:42

just is a few months old. When he arrived

22:45

at the gate of the school he was shocked

22:47

when it as a sniper's. I.

22:49

Must have is hard hard to hear this.

22:51

And I'm going to get to what happened to you.

22:53

Actually, you were detained when you tried to leave and

22:55

in a moment I'm going to get to that. Besides,

22:58

I want to ask you because you are an. Awesome.

23:00

You're a writer. You're a poet. And

23:02

we've heard and we've read not

23:05

only your accounts of the destruction,

23:07

not just of lives, but of

23:09

culture and of institutions. Whether it's

23:11

the cultural institution that was built

23:14

in the eighties weather is the

23:16

seventh century mosques, whether it's libraries,

23:18

and the zoo and everything else.

23:20

And. I. Just wanted you

23:23

to reflect on that as well

23:25

the the destruction of Gaza as

23:27

a. As. A sensor

23:30

of of civilization. Well.

23:32

Does as a lot of history of.

23:35

People. In Gaza Values for the value, arts,

23:37

value, poetry and novel them and every

23:39

kind of you know culture that people

23:41

celebrate around the books. I think what

23:43

what his own is doing is not

23:45

only getting rid of people that be

23:47

have been wanting to get rid of

23:49

for for for a long time but

23:51

they are trying to get. rid

23:53

of whatever remains it reminds people

23:55

of their lives in gaza i

23:58

mean they are they are not

24:00

bombing one house or two houses.

24:02

They are detonating neighborhoods.

24:08

And in fact, figures show

24:10

from overhead aerial

24:12

photography and

24:14

from accounts from inside that something

24:16

like 70% of

24:19

buildings have been either destroyed or damaged

24:21

in the last five to six months.

24:24

But I want to ask you to read

24:26

a little bit from one of your poems, one

24:28

of the latest ones. So if you could read

24:31

a few lines of What is

24:33

Home? Yeah, so this

24:35

is this is called What is Home and

24:37

it's from my poetry collection, Things You May

24:39

Find Hidden in My Ear. What

24:41

is home? It is

24:44

the shade of trees on my way to

24:46

school before they were uprooted. It

24:48

is my grandparents black and white with ink

24:51

photo before the walls crumble.

24:53

It is my uncle's prayer rug where

24:56

dozens of ants slept on wintery

24:58

nights before it was looted and

25:00

put in a museum. It is

25:02

the oven my mother used to bake bread

25:04

and roast the chicken before a

25:07

bomb reduced our house to ashes. It

25:10

is the cafe where I watched football

25:12

matches and played My

25:14

Child Stops Me. Can a

25:17

four letter word hold all of these? It's

25:21

very, very poignant. It's very poignant.

25:23

And so I need to ask you what

25:25

has happened to your home? As I said,

25:27

when we first interviewed you months ago, you

25:30

sat in front of a

25:32

bookcase full of your books that you have

25:34

painstakingly bought, collected

25:37

and kept over the years. What

25:39

remains? Well, you know,

25:41

you reminded me of this and it brings

25:44

tears to my eyes. I

25:47

mean, I've built my own home

25:49

library by by by

25:53

bringing with me from my trips to the

25:56

States. I traveled to the United States three

25:58

times before the war. I

26:00

returned to Gaza 10 days before the October

26:03

7th happened. I used to

26:05

bring with me, well the first time I returned to Gaza, I

26:07

brought with me 120 books.

26:10

Some of them were signed by authors, friends.

26:12

The second time I returned, I brought with me 70

26:15

books. And the last time I

26:17

brought with me 20 books. I mean, the destruction

26:19

of a house is something, but the destruction of

26:21

what used to be inside the house is something

26:23

that cannot be built. The

26:26

memories that I have built with my children,

26:28

you know, the blankets

26:31

that I brought with me as

26:33

gifts from my friends in the

26:35

States, some of the

26:37

souvenirs. I mean, I now remember the

26:40

shield that I got as an award

26:42

for my Palestine Book Award. There

26:45

are many things that I lost, but fortunately

26:48

none of my family members were killed.

26:50

When I talk about my tragedy, I

26:52

see it as a small thing compared

26:54

to what happened to other people when

26:57

I remember that many

26:59

of my friends, including the

27:01

Hamdona family, that my friends' whole

27:03

family were buried under the rubble of their

27:05

house. I mean, I see my tragedy as

27:08

something very small. It's

27:10

really horrible and it's affecting the

27:12

whole world as well. And

27:14

I want to ask you to go back

27:16

to November when you finally decided to leave.

27:19

And on your way out, you were

27:22

arrested and held into detention for

27:24

a period of time. You wrote about it

27:26

in the New Yorker. Tell me

27:28

what happened. You were arrested and held

27:31

for many hours. Why? What

27:33

was the reason given? Well,

27:35

I think for me as a Gazan, I mean,

27:37

to be a Gazan is a reason for Israel

27:39

to kill you, to kidnap you, to wound you.

27:42

I was, by the way, I was wounded when

27:44

I was 16 years old. In 2008 and 2009,

27:46

Israeli onslaught on Gaza, I was 16. I

27:52

survived. And I was kidnapped by

27:54

the Israeli army when I was trying to

27:56

cross from North Gaza, as we

27:58

all were directed by the Israeli army. army to

28:00

cross from south from north Gaza where

28:02

we were staying and sheltering at an

28:05

oral school to south Gaza to leave

28:07

with my family. So our youngest son

28:09

was is an American citizen. He was

28:11

born in Boston when I was doing

28:13

my fellowship at Harvard University. So

28:16

we were directed by the American embassy to head

28:18

to the Rafah border. So these

28:20

lists, by the way, the list that

28:23

that list people's name to cross

28:25

to Rafah is approved by the

28:28

Israeli authority. So I was I

28:30

had zero speculations

28:32

that they would call on me.

28:35

They called to me. I dropped my

28:37

boy when the Israeli soldiers shouted at me,

28:39

drop the boy. Don't come, don't come with him.

28:41

Drop the boy. I'll drop your belongings and come

28:43

to us. They took me to

28:46

an area that's a few meters away from

28:48

the Israeli Jeep. I was

28:50

forced to take off all my clothes.

28:52

Even my boxer shorts. And

28:54

in front of a three Israeli soldiers who

28:56

two of them were pointing their guns at

28:59

me and the person next to me and

29:01

the third soldier was was

29:04

saying orders, drop your clothes,

29:06

drop your IDs, etc. I was trying to

29:09

tell them, hey, please talk to me. I

29:12

am going to Rafah. I have an American citizen.

29:14

This is an American passport, but they didn't pay

29:16

attention to anything. And some of this one of

29:18

the soldiers said to the other, oh, Andra. And

29:20

then I said, yes, I am a teacher. He

29:23

said, shut up, son of a. I

29:25

was shocked by the way they were talking

29:27

to me, although there was no proof that

29:29

I did anything to them. But on the

29:31

contrary, I was harmed. My family was harmed.

29:34

Our house was bombed. I lost a lot

29:36

of friends. I was when I was 16.

29:39

So I am the victim. I have

29:41

been the victim before night, before October

29:43

7th, but that's nothing to them because

29:45

they don't see us as people

29:47

who have been occupied and oppressed for

29:50

decades, not only for days or weeks.

29:52

You were released after 50 hours

29:54

and they basically said, sorry about the

29:57

mistake. This is the response we got

29:59

from them. During idea of

30:01

operations in the Gaza Strip,

30:03

there was intelligence indicating of

30:05

a number of interactions between

30:08

several civilians and terror organizations

30:10

inside the Gaza Strip. The

30:12

civilians among them Mosab of

30:14

Would Toss were taken into

30:16

questioning. Also the questioning he

30:18

was released. Then. They and

30:21

by say the Idea strategy,

30:23

adheres to international law aiming

30:25

to minimize civilian casualties. Contrasting

30:28

Hamas is intentional. Targeting.

30:30

Of. Israeli civilians. Well.

30:32

Different festival visit this is something visit

30:35

to to swim and to any though

30:37

you know agency or any a magazine

30:39

resort to them about me it's but

30:41

then such the be are not correct

30:44

they did not on investigate me be

30:46

blindfolded me be handcuffed me beats be

30:48

tortured me because me disease because mean

30:50

by and and my stomach addicted me

30:53

on my knees four hours and when

30:55

i when they released me they didn't

30:57

they didn't give me back my by

30:59

our our best was. Neither.

31:01

Have an American passport me that of them

31:04

that addison and Best works. He didn't return

31:06

my wallet my debit card make my could

31:08

have caused by watch my clothes suddenly the

31:10

vivid not only investigating his you know. I.

31:13

Was okay. Let me just resistance

31:16

detainees is is the idea. Again,

31:18

detainees are treated in line with

31:21

international standards including necessary checks for

31:23

concealed weapons. The idea of prioritizes

31:25

detainee dignity and will review any

31:28

deviations. From particles so. Most they're

31:30

gonna review it they say i can

31:32

see you grinning. Ah, because

31:34

we've heard this. Well off we see.

31:36

Yeah, But now it off We see what

31:38

we see in the streets. What we see in

31:41

the streets of Palestinian people Adams you

31:43

know, naked and the you know did

31:45

and and and walked industry it would

31:47

only books have a short. The call

31:49

screeners businesses is this has nothing to

31:51

do with dignity. Let me

31:53

though and by asking you this because

31:55

you have also. Written recently about a

31:57

feud said and you right I.

32:00

I hope that when the war ends, I

32:02

can go back to Gaza to help

32:04

rebuild my family home and fill it

32:06

with books. That one day all Israelis

32:08

can see us as their equals, as

32:10

people who need to live on our

32:12

own land in safety and prosperity and

32:15

build a future. How does this

32:17

end, Mossab? How do you see

32:19

it ending? Well,

32:21

I mean, the future, you know, is

32:24

very desperate. The

32:26

present is very desperate, unfortunately. Nothing

32:29

is changing. I

32:31

think the change

32:34

needs not to come only from

32:36

inside Israel, but the change should

32:38

be coming from the American administration.

32:41

The American administration is trying to,

32:43

I think, correct some of its

32:45

mistake by trying to drop some

32:47

food in Gaza. But I

32:49

think this is not the right way

32:51

to do it. I think the

32:53

American administration, along with dropping some food

32:56

aid to Gaza, they

32:58

should and they must stop shipping,

33:00

not dropping, shipping, you

33:03

know, decently some weapons to Israel,

33:05

which in turn drops these weapons

33:07

on Gaza. I think this

33:10

change should come from the free purpose of

33:12

the world. And I hope the American administration

33:15

would help achieve peace by

33:19

enforcing it, by stopping sending

33:22

more and more weapons to Israel.

33:25

And I guess, finally, what

33:27

should Palestinians do? It

33:29

might be a difficult question to ask you now, given

33:32

the level of slaughter and

33:34

the terrible

33:37

starvation, the brink of famine. More

33:40

than 32,000 Palestinians have been killed

33:42

in Gaza. What

33:45

should they do? What

33:47

about Hamas? I mean, it has

33:50

responsibility as well. Let's

33:52

say Hamas was established in 1987. I

33:55

mean, the Palestinian cause didn't start in 1987. So

33:59

the problem is not with... I think is only with

34:01

Hamas. Hamas could be a problem. It has not

34:03

been good to many of us in Gaza. There

34:10

is always some conflict

34:12

between the government or whoever rules over

34:14

people and with the people themselves. So

34:17

Hamas is not loved

34:19

by all Gazans. Many people wanted to get

34:21

rid of Hamas, but not by killing

34:24

them, of course. So I think what Palestinians

34:26

need to have is to not have anyone

34:28

control them because we need to have our

34:30

own country. We

34:33

need to decide who would rule

34:35

over us. Just

34:38

like anyone in the world, about a million

34:41

people in Gaza, half of Gaza's population, are

34:44

under the age of 19, which means that

34:46

they were born in 2004 and the

34:49

elections were in 2006. So

34:51

half the population in Gaza did not vote

34:53

for Hamas, including me, who is now 31

34:55

years old. I'm 31 years old.

34:57

I've never voted in my life. Understood.

35:00

Moza Babatou, thank you so much for joining

35:02

us. Thank you, Christiane. We

35:10

turn now to Turkey, where long-time

35:12

President Recep Erdogan has been dealt

35:14

a heavy blow in recent elections.

35:16

The main opposition party sweeping to

35:18

victory in crucial cities like Ankara

35:21

and Istanbul, defeating the president's Justice

35:23

and Development Party. It's a huge

35:25

moment for Turkey and correspondent Scott

35:27

McLean joins us live from Istanbul

35:29

with the details. Scott, can't understate

35:32

or overstate really the significance of

35:34

what we saw over the weekend,

35:36

especially since we saw the huge

35:38

victory, the presidential victory last year

35:41

for Erdogan, but right now a clear message

35:43

being sent to him about the state of

35:45

the country, the state of the economy. Yeah,

35:50

that's absolutely right. If you can believe it, Biana,

35:52

this is not something that President

35:55

Erdogan's act party or Justice and Development Party

35:57

is used to. This is the very first

35:59

time. in their existence, they lost a

36:01

popular vote and this is the first time,

36:03

or this is the lowest share of the

36:05

popular vote that they have had since their

36:07

initial election run

36:10

back in 2002. As

36:12

you said, they managed to lose places

36:14

that they were expected to, Izmir and

36:16

Ankara. They lost places

36:18

that they had poured a lot of

36:20

resources in, like here in Istanbul where

36:23

Erdogan actually lost his own district, Beolu,

36:25

where he was born and raised. But

36:27

they also lost in places that had previously been

36:29

considered strongholds. I'll give you one example. Adi Amman

36:32

is a city in southern Turkey. It is very

36:34

well known as quite religious, quite conservative. It's a

36:36

place where the Act Party had more than 50%

36:38

of the vote in the

36:41

2019 local elections. This time

36:43

they had just about half

36:45

of that. And so

36:47

obviously there has been a massive tectonic

36:49

shift here. And what was interesting to

36:51

see though was President Erdogan in the

36:53

aftermath of this giving not a victory

36:55

speech, but a speech

36:57

to his supporters in Ankara where he was much

36:59

more reflective about what went wrong. Listen. We

37:03

will open-heartedly analyze the results of

37:05

the March 31st elections

37:07

within our party and make

37:09

our self-criticism boldly. Although

37:12

not finalized yet, the election results

37:14

show us that we are experiencing

37:16

a loss of ground in local

37:18

administrations across the country. Of course,

37:20

we will discuss the reasons for

37:22

this decline we see on a

37:24

local basis. It's

37:28

also worth pointing out, Beolu, that this

37:30

is an election that President Erdogan had

37:32

really invested himself in. His face around

37:34

Istanbul was on banners and billboards all

37:36

over town. He had come here several

37:39

times in the final days of

37:41

the campaign trying to shore up his support. And

37:43

so this loss has really

37:45

got a sting extra for him. Yeah,

37:48

Istanbul constitutes 30 percent of the country's

37:50

economy. He had been a former mayor

37:52

there and he had also planned to

37:55

put forward a new constitution which would

37:57

extend his presidential. We'll

38:00

see how all of that will be

38:03

impacted by the results of

38:05

this pretty shocking election over the weekend.

38:07

Scott McLean, thank you so much. Smartphones

38:12

and social media have altered children's development,

38:14

and our next guest is issuing a

38:16

call to action. In his

38:19

new book, social psychologist Jonathan Haidt

38:21

investigates the sudden collapse of mental

38:23

health among adolescents. He

38:25

joined Tari Srinivasan to discuss how

38:27

parents can manage the negative impacts.

38:31

Jonathan Haidt, thanks so much for

38:33

joining us. Your latest book is

38:35

called The Anxious Generation, how the

38:37

great rewiring of childhood is causing

38:40

an epidemic of mental illness. You

38:42

and I have talked before, and

38:46

you have been very careful

38:48

about not seeming alarmist. This

38:51

book, what's fascinating to me about it, is

38:54

that you supplement so

38:56

much of your

38:59

ideas with empirical

39:01

data and research that is

39:03

proving this point. What

39:06

is the epidemic of mental illness, and where do we find

39:08

the data for that? When you and I first spoke about

39:10

this, it might have been back in 2019, I was not

39:12

as alarmist

39:14

because we weren't sure. It

39:16

was clear that something was going wrong with

39:18

teen mental health. We had graphs showing that

39:20

around 2013, rates of anxiety,

39:23

depression, and self-harm began rising rapidly.

39:26

There was an academic debate, and there still is,

39:28

an academic debate about whether it's caused by social

39:30

media. It's correlated with it. Girls

39:32

who use it heavily are three times as likely to

39:34

be depressed, but scientists are going

39:36

to debate, is it causal or is it just a correlation? Since

39:39

then, I have learned a lot.

39:42

I have gathered all the studies I can

39:44

find, including experiments. There are now a lot

39:46

of experiments that show that when you randomly

39:48

assign people to different conditions, it causes them

39:50

to get more depressed or less

39:52

depressed. We have experimental research. The really shocking

39:54

thing to me, the thing that really made

39:56

me into, I'd like to say an

39:58

alarm ringer, not an alarmist. Is

40:01

the discovery that the exact same thing

40:03

happened to us in

40:06

America as happened in Canada, Britain,

40:08

Australia, New Zealand, and Scandinavia at

40:10

the same time in the same

40:12

way, hitting girls hardest and young

40:14

girls even harder? So once

40:17

it became clear, this is an international

40:19

epidemic of teen mental illness. It began

40:21

in the early 2010s. It's

40:23

hitting girls hardest, although the boys story is really

40:25

interesting and is also very bad. It's just a

40:28

little different. So that's why I've

40:30

been in this book, if you want

40:32

to say I'm sort of leaving

40:34

my old self behind and saying, we need

40:36

to act like now, like not in 2025.

40:39

Like we need to really make changes this

40:41

year, because otherwise another year of kids is

40:43

going to be consigned to this phone

40:46

based childhood, which interferes with development. So

40:49

your argument is not that it's the technology

40:51

that's bad or that it's the internet that's

40:53

bad. I mean, you actually try to draw

40:55

kind of a timeline from, well,

40:58

getting one of these supercomputers in your pocket

41:00

to the front facing selfie

41:02

camera to broadband,

41:05

and then social media. I mean, what

41:07

have each of these kind of technological

41:11

evolutions done to

41:13

how our brains evolve? So the

41:15

technology, that technology is great, the

41:18

internet is great, but things

41:20

really change in the early 2010s.

41:22

And so just to walk you through it, in 2010, I really go into

41:25

this in the detail in the book in 2011,

41:27

only 20% of American teens

41:29

have a smartphone. Kids were still

41:31

using flip phones, they did not have high

41:34

speed, high speed internet, most of them they

41:37

did not have unlimited data plans, you use

41:39

your flip phone to text or call your

41:41

friends to get together. That's it. Kids were

41:43

still seeing other kids in 2010.

41:45

That's the beginning of what I call the great

41:47

rewiring. Over the next few years, the

41:51

smartphone gets a front facing camera in 2010. Instagram comes

41:54

out in 2010, but it becomes super

41:56

popular in 2012 when Facebook buys it.

41:59

So that's when the girls really rush on and they move

42:01

their socialize on to Instagram in particular, also Tumblr

42:03

a few others. You get these super

42:05

viral social media platforms. It wasn't like that in

42:07

2005. So you

42:09

get front facing camera, high speed data. Oh,

42:12

you get notifications. The original

42:14

iPhone didn't interrupt you. You pulled it

42:16

out when you wanted it. So what I'm

42:18

saying is in 2010, there is no sign of a mental

42:21

health crisis. Everything's fine. So we were all

42:23

super optimistic in 2011, even up to 2012. But

42:27

that's when the mental illness crisis begins.

42:29

And all the numbers go way up

42:31

for girls and also up substantially for

42:33

boys. So by 2015, what we

42:35

have is the millennials,

42:38

they just barely made it through puberty before

42:40

they got this. So the millennials were in

42:42

college or late high school when they adopted

42:44

this phone-based life. Because we're all

42:47

doing it. We're all dominated by our technology. Talk

42:49

us through the actual harms that's

42:52

now scientifically connected

42:54

to kids use

42:56

and increase use of screens

42:59

and social media specifically on smartphones.

43:02

So first we have to establish

43:04

the numbers here, which are stunning. The

43:06

latest data from Gallup is around nine hours

43:08

a day is what they spend on their

43:11

phones and screens. Five hours a

43:13

day of that is social media. Another

43:15

three to five is all the other stuff that

43:17

they do. So imagine if your child, if

43:19

you take nine or 10 hours out

43:21

of their day, every single day, where's it

43:23

going to come from? They

43:25

spend less time sleeping, less time

43:28

with other kids, less time outside, less time

43:30

exercising, a lot more time just being sedentary

43:32

and solitary. So for all

43:34

those reasons, oh, very

43:36

little reading of books, no hobbies, there's no time. There's

43:38

no time for anything. So that's the first thing that

43:41

pushes out all the good things of childhood that we

43:43

want our kids to have. When

43:45

you give a kid a smartphone, it's likely to move to

43:47

the center of her life. And that's what

43:49

she's going to do for the rest of her life. And

43:53

so that's one of the main ways of harm. It just deprives you of

43:55

everything else. Another thing

43:57

it does is it fragments your attention. You

44:00

and I are

44:02

probably, we can pay attention to things, we can

44:04

do our work, but it's harder now

44:06

than it was 10 years ago. There's constant interruptions, but

44:08

we're still able to do it, but it's a struggle.

44:12

A teenager just starting puberty, age 10, 11,

44:16

12, the prefrontal cortex has not yet

44:18

rewired for the adult configuration. They're

44:21

not very good at paying attention. And

44:23

early puberty is when that skill really

44:25

develops. And so to have them trying

44:27

to develop that skill while being interrupted

44:30

every few minutes, the average

44:32

teen now gets, one study found 257 notifications a

44:34

day, 257 interruptions every

44:38

day. It's very hard to

44:40

focus on anything. So you get fragmented attention, and

44:42

we don't know how permanent this is. Another

44:45

harm is addiction. The brain adapts to that

44:47

constant level of stimulation so that when you're

44:49

not getting it, you're in a deficit mode.

44:52

You're irritable, you're unhappy, you

44:54

feel terrible. So

44:56

these devices are designed to grab hold of our kids'

44:58

attention and never let go. And

45:00

they're very effective at that. I could go on. There

45:02

are so many other avenues of harm, but those are

45:04

some of the big ones that I cover in the

45:06

book. Can we talk a little bit

45:08

about also the data and how it forks on

45:11

the impacts to girls versus boys? When I

45:13

started writing the book, I thought it was

45:15

going to be a story primarily about what

45:18

social media is doing to girls, because I've

45:20

got a lot of data on that. And

45:22

because the graphs, as you said, are like

45:24

hockey sticks. It's like they're going along, there's

45:26

nothing happening. And then all of a sudden,

45:28

one day in 2013, they all start shooting

45:30

upwards. And it's the hospitalizations

45:32

for self-harm that are the most stunning.

45:34

And they're the same in Britain, Canada,

45:36

Australia. It's absolutely stunning what's happened to

45:39

girls since 2013. For

45:41

boys, I couldn't find a

45:43

smoking gun. I couldn't say, oh, well, it's

45:45

video games or it's social media. For boys,

45:48

the rise in mental illness is slower. And

45:51

the key thing about boys, it's not so much

45:53

that this modern age is giving them diagnosable mental

45:56

illness. But I finally figured out

45:58

working with my research partner, Zach Roush. We

46:01

finally figured out is that for boys,

46:03

the issue is they've been withdrawing from the real

46:05

world, really since the 80s and 90s. They've been

46:07

spending much more time online. They don't

46:09

go outside. They don't wrestle. So

46:11

boys are basically locked in their development.

46:14

They're not turning into men. They're dropping

46:16

out of school. They're dropping out of

46:18

the workforce. So we're

46:20

losing a generation of boys. It's not as clear

46:22

for when you look at wealthy educated groups, the

46:25

gender gap is not so big. Once

46:27

you get to sort of middle class and below, the girls

46:30

are doing okay in terms of school and work,

46:32

and the boys are just not. So

46:35

the problems are more diffuse, but they're

46:37

extremely serious for boys. There

46:39

are so many parents that will tell

46:41

you that if you take a smartphone

46:43

away from a child, that

46:46

there's almost like that you've broken

46:48

this tractor beam, that they've had

46:50

this lock, and they're really, generally

46:52

speaking, aggressive. It's

46:55

a very strange equation. It's like if it

46:58

was any other kind of an addictive substance

47:00

or drug, a parent would probably say,

47:02

well, let's get that out of the house and not use it.

47:05

The most powerful argument a kid can make

47:07

is, mom, I have to have

47:09

a smartphone because everyone else has one, and I'll

47:11

be left out. I have to have Instagram because

47:14

everyone else has it, and I'll be left out.

47:18

So that's what's called a collective action problem. It's hard

47:20

for us as parents because everyone else is doing this.

47:23

And so what I'm proposing is that we coordinate, we

47:25

set some norms, and

47:28

norms that would be hard to do on our own, but

47:30

much easier to do if we do them

47:32

together. So

47:35

just to go back to the parent

47:38

struggling to put limits on, to maybe give

47:40

a warning, what you were describing

47:43

is actually quintessential withdrawal symptoms

47:45

from any drug. When

47:48

brain circuits are used to getting

47:50

this stimulation from, whether it's cocaine, heroin,

47:52

slot machines, or social media, if

47:55

that happens every day, when you

47:57

take the kid off, they feel horrible for a couple

47:59

of weeks. six, two, or three weeks, three or

48:01

four weeks actually, to detox for the brain to

48:03

reset. So it's vital that we

48:06

give our kids, that we delay the entry

48:08

into this craziness and that we give our

48:10

kids time away. Let's deal with some of

48:12

the reservations that I'm sure you've heard. You

48:15

know, besides my kid is going

48:17

to miss out. One

48:19

of the things that I think parents

48:21

are concerned about is giving

48:23

their kids devices to

48:26

be able to get in touch with them in

48:29

an emergency. What are ways to

48:31

do that without necessarily giving them

48:33

a full

48:35

smartphone loaded with social media? As a parent

48:37

of two high school kids, I totally understand

48:39

the desire to be able to

48:42

reach your children and the desire for them

48:44

to reach you if something goes wrong. That's

48:46

the first thing. We're not saying cut them

48:48

off and don't communicate. We're saying don't give

48:50

them the most powerful distraction device ever invented

48:53

to have in their pocket all the time,

48:55

including when they're going to sleep, when they're

48:57

in class, etc. So give

48:59

them a flip phone. The millennials had flip phones and they turned out fine.

49:02

My second point though is

49:05

school security experts say there

49:09

are procedures in place to deal with

49:11

a school shooting and

49:14

they involve listening and cooperating and working

49:16

together with the teacher and the administration.

49:19

So where would you rather send your kid? I would ask

49:21

any parents who have this concern, and we all have the

49:23

concern. Would you rather send your

49:25

kid to a school in which when there's a

49:28

potential problem, everyone, they're silent, they

49:30

follow directions, they do what they're supposed

49:32

to do, they follow the procedure? Would

49:35

you rather have one where at the first sign of

49:37

a serious problem, everyone pulls out their phone, they're crying

49:39

to their parents, they're making a lot of noise, they're

49:41

not listening? So again, I understand

49:43

the human urge to talk to your kid

49:45

if there's a crisis, but the

49:47

teacher has a phone, all the

49:50

administrators have phones, so we

49:52

have to let the professionals do their job and not interfere as

49:54

parents. What's the idea that there

49:57

are so many different types of communities who

49:59

have found each other over

50:02

social media. In a section in

50:04

your book, you talk about how, ironically,

50:07

some of these communities that might find the

50:10

most benefit are also the

50:12

ones who are susceptible to the

50:15

largest of negative effects by

50:17

being social media. Explain that. Yes. So,

50:19

you know, we often confuse the internet

50:21

and social media. What you've described is

50:24

a problem that the internet largely solved.

50:26

Kids were isolated in the 90s. They could find,

50:28

you know, if you're gay, if you're bi, if

50:31

you're trans, they could find

50:33

other kids beginning in the 90s. The internet is amazing

50:35

for that. Once you start getting

50:37

communities on social media, what

50:39

you get is a move to the extremes.

50:42

So let's look at mental health Tumblr or

50:44

mental health Instagram or mental health TikTok. You

50:47

might think, well, it's great if a person has

50:49

a particular disorder. It's great that they can interact

50:51

with other people who share their disorder. I

50:53

don't think that's true. There's just

50:55

increasing amounts of research that social

50:57

media is spreading mental illness. It's

50:59

just not a good idea to

51:01

have teenagers hanging out with influencers

51:04

for who are who are motivated to

51:06

be more extreme to get followers. So

51:08

I don't buy the argument that this

51:11

is somehow good for members of historically

51:13

marginalized communities. And as

51:15

a report in the book, studies show that while

51:17

most kids recognize that these platforms are bad for

51:19

them, LGBTQ kids are even

51:21

more vociferous and saying these platforms are

51:24

bad for us, these platforms lead to

51:26

bullying and harassment. So, you

51:29

know, the internet is amazing. But social

51:31

media does far more harm to kids

51:33

than whatever shreds of benefit you

51:35

can find from it. You have

51:37

taken this message to social media

51:39

companies directly. Are they getting

51:41

it? Well, there's

51:44

been no response, certainly. They I

51:46

think they're kind of hemmed in.

51:48

Well, I should put it this way. Meta

51:51

did try a small thing. They tried hiding the

51:53

leg counter that didn't work to have an effect.

51:56

I've spoken with their research staff there. I've spoken

51:58

with leadership there. I do believe believe that if

52:00

they could make it healthier and not

52:02

lose any users, they would do

52:05

it. But Meta in

52:07

particular has shown it's always prioritized growth

52:09

over everything else. There have been many

52:11

internal whistleblowers pointing out problems. They

52:13

generally don't respond. They don't do the

52:15

things that would be effective because that would, for

52:17

example, kicking off underage users. They know how

52:19

old everybody is. But when most 11 and

52:22

12-year-olds have an Instagram account, they

52:24

should be kicked off, but Meta won't do that. Snapchat

52:27

won't do that because they lose most of

52:29

their users. So they know what the problems

52:31

are. There have

52:33

been many internal reports, and they don't act.

52:36

And they don't have to because Congress gave them

52:38

immunity from lawsuits. This is one of the most

52:40

insane things about our country. We

52:42

have this thing, this environment that

52:44

is incredibly toxic for our kids'

52:47

development, and

52:49

we can't sue them. At

52:51

a Senate hearing, CEO of

52:53

Meta, Mark Zuckerberg, said, quote,

52:55

The existing body of scientific

52:57

work has not shown a

52:59

causal link between using social

53:01

media and young people having

53:03

worse mental health. Is

53:06

he misinformed by his lawyers? No,

53:09

he's properly informed by his lawyers that

53:11

he can point to studies that support

53:13

that conclusion. He can

53:15

point to a few meta-analyses that support

53:17

that. He can point to a study by

53:21

the National Academy of Science that came to that conclusion.

53:23

But there is so much evidence on the

53:25

other side, so they're cherry-picking. Even that National

53:27

Academy's report that claimed that there's not enough

53:30

evidence to prove causation, in that

53:32

very report, people should read

53:34

chapter four. It's an amazing catalog of

53:37

the research that shows causality. So it's

53:39

a bizarre report in which the report

53:41

itself documents dozens and dozens of avenues

53:43

of harm and dozens and dozens of

53:45

experiments. But yet for some reason,

53:48

the way it was written, they said, well, we

53:50

can't prove that it's causal. I've

53:52

collected, if you go to my

53:54

sub-stack afterbabel.com, I've gone through all

53:57

of the studies. We

53:59

itemized and we show how the correlational studies

54:01

come out, how the longitudinal studies come out,

54:04

how the experimental studies come out. There is

54:06

a ton of evidence, the preponderance of the

54:08

evidence shows it's not just a correlate, it's

54:10

a cause. Zuckerberg was pointing to

54:12

the few studies he could, but in the

54:15

long run, I believe they're gonna lose that

54:17

case because the evidence keeps mounting, and

54:19

by now, everybody sees it. The

54:22

teachers, the parents, all those parents

54:24

we saw at that Senate hearing, like were

54:26

they wrong that their kid, that

54:30

their kid is

54:32

dead because of something that happened on social media, were

54:34

they all wrong about that? So at

54:37

this point in time, it just defies belief that

54:39

social media isn't contributing

54:42

to this mental health crisis. Do

54:44

you think that legislation, like

54:47

what Ron Dezantis is proposing in

54:49

Florida, or other states

54:51

are thinking about doing to try

54:53

to delay or ban the use

54:55

of social media by a certain

54:58

age will work? I

55:00

think the Dezantis bill is great. I think the Florida bill is

55:02

great. We have to

55:04

delay the age at which they

55:06

get into social media. I think

55:08

16 is the right age. I mean, for health reasons, it should be 18,

55:11

but realistically, we're not gonna get 18. 16,

55:14

I think, is a reasonable compromise at which we

55:16

can begin treating kids like adults on the internet.

55:18

Right now, current law says 13, at

55:20

13 companies can do whatever the hell they want to your kids.

55:23

They can take their data, they can do anything. They

55:25

don't need your permission. They can treat them like adults. That's

55:27

current law. And there's zero enforcement.

55:30

As long as they don't know your kid is 10, they can

55:32

do whatever they want to your kid. So the

55:34

current law is horrible. It's not enforced. The

55:36

age is too low. It's 13. We

55:39

need to raise that to 16 and enforce it. And

55:41

that's what the Florida bill is gonna do. They

55:43

have a little carve out so that if parents really

55:45

want their kid to be on it 14 and 15, they

55:48

can specifically sign a permission. That'll be interesting

55:50

to see how the tech companies implement that.

55:52

But I'm a big fan of the Florida

55:54

bill. I hope all 50 states do it

55:56

because there is no way to make social

55:58

media safe for middle school children. Author

56:01

and Professor Jonathan Haidt, thanks so much for joining us.

56:03

Thank you, Hari. It's

56:05

a very insightful interview there. Finally,

56:08

spring has sprung. Tokyo's cherry

56:10

blossom season has officially begun.

56:13

Japan's meteorological agencies

56:15

spotted five blooming flowers on the city's

56:17

official sample tree, which determines the start

56:20

of the season. A cold snap

56:22

delayed the bloom five days later than

56:24

usual. Meanwhile, California is

56:26

on track for a spectacular super

56:28

bloom. After a wet

56:31

winter, the floral phenomenon is expected

56:33

to outshine last year's unprecedented bloom.

56:36

The wildflowers draw thousands of tourists and

56:38

add a splash of color to the

56:40

rolling desert hills. And

56:43

now, a quick look ahead to tomorrow's program,

56:45

when Christian will be interviewing the United Nations

56:47

Relief Coordinator, Martin Griffiths. It will be his

56:49

first interview since he revealed that he's stepping

56:52

down from the post due to his struggle

56:54

with long COVID. They'll be

56:56

discussing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and

56:58

beyond, as well as any hopes he

57:00

has for the future in such dark

57:02

times. Well that

57:05

is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you

57:07

can find the latest episodes shortly after there's all our podcasts.

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And remember, you can always catch us online,

57:12

on our website, and all over social media.

57:15

Thank you so much for watching, and good luck in New York.

57:28

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