0:04

hello everyone and welcome to m14 here's

0:06

what's coming up

0:09

a define boris johnson vows

0:11

to fight on, despite losing a wave

0:14

from his a party and from

0:16

the public fed up conservative,

0:18

lawmakers condemn

0:18

his behavior to his

0:21

face, but, do they finally have

0:23

the vote to force him or

0:25

can the master of political survival stage?

0:28

yet another dramatic comeback

0:45

welcome to the program everyone i'm christian on

0:47

one for in london where a major political

0:50

crisis is underway keep calm

0:52

and carry on that brand british more

0:54

celts and that is exactly prime

0:56

minister boris johnson vows despite yet

0:58

another scandal top ministerial

1:01

resignations losing recent

1:03

local elections and plunging postal

1:05

popularity one snap poll

1:07

conducted today founders seven

1:10

out of ten british adults want him to

1:12

resign yet again the familiar

1:14

question how long can boris

1:16

johnson playing johnson and it's and playbook

1:19

that america the will know all too well

1:21

just like donald trump's bar johnson

1:23

has stepped so far out of the mainstream

1:25

expectations for political leader and

1:28

he's slowing up such a volume of scandals

1:31

which is overloaded the news cycle and

1:33

overwhelm the public for the old

1:35

boris razzle dazzle is wearing

1:37

thin here as voters grapple

1:39

with the cost of living crises and

1:42

transit strike and a deficit

1:44

of good governance so far

1:46

more than two dozen ministers and age

1:49

of quit the government's among the most damaging

1:51

the chances of the exchequer and the

1:53

former health the dairy sajid javid

1:56

they confronted johnson in paul

2:00

i will never risk losing my integrity

2:04

i also believe a team is

2:06

as good as it's team captain about

2:09

a captain is as good as his for

2:11

thirty so long

2:13

he must go both ways the

2:16

events of recent months have made it

2:18

increasingly difficult to be

2:20

inducting

2:22

martin does the party

2:24

finally have the votes just throw him out

2:26

where we now is the former tory minister

2:29

rory stewart up royce you're

2:31

welcome back to our program you

2:33

have been have minister a minister government and

2:36

you or in government and you

2:38

have had your issues boris johnson

2:41

you've been politically you know against him despite

2:43

being in the same parties what do you think

2:46

the likelihood of him actually

2:48

resigning all been fuss middle

2:51

thrown out what is a the likelihood

2:53

that is now

2:55

the definitely he is now in

2:57

a very very strange and game as

2:59

you pointed out to listen he's

3:01

lost a thirty of his miss the

3:04

ministers and a in

3:06

twenty four hours it's

3:08

an extraordinary situation where he simply can't

3:11

it feels like replace some fast enough

3:13

as they go the government collapsing

3:15

in front of his eyes but many

3:19

many things that he's done over the last

3:22

two years would have led any normal

3:24

prime minister to resign this

3:26

is the humiliation of events

3:28

in fact when his sword suck at it will be seem

3:31

a little strange that he's resigning ultimate

3:33

the about something that his deputy

3:36

chief whip is reported

3:38

to have done in the in the house of commons and

3:40

it's going to the central now

3:43

to try to rebuild that confidence

3:46

rory there are reports

3:49

that there are ministers cabinet

3:51

ministers in downing street waiting

3:54

for him to return from one of his appearances

3:56

are today in parliament arm

3:59

and allegedly to encourage

4:01

him or try to get into actually resign

4:04

what are their chances i mean you

4:06

know he is years hung on the

4:09

second thin throughout all

4:11

the ups and downs the the police

4:14

the

4:14

ratio the law or

4:16

the the the confidence vote all of that

4:18

can they sleep make

4:21

a quorum that he will actually listen to

4:24

theoretically he can hang on

4:27

for almost indefinitely until he loses

4:29

half as his percy so

4:31

it's not like the american system is the

4:34

the isn't an impeachment process that

4:36

can be followed in this way

4:38

the factory

4:40

traditionally our the prime minister is that

4:42

because the queen support nuts no longer really

4:45

true effects of the now the premises

4:47

there when the members of parliament

4:49

support them and was an attempt

4:51

to toppled him very recently just a few

4:53

weeks ago where he five

4:55

percent of the backbenches went against them but he kept

4:57

the ministers now he's losing

4:59

the ministers fast but the humiliation

5:02

this extraordinary i mean meet thing now

5:04

he's about to go back into downing street get back

5:06

into where the chancellor

5:09

of the exchequer is the second most

5:11

senior person and government to appointed yesterday

5:14

there's gonna be waiting to tell him to go the

5:17

have to be a point where even bars shops

5:19

and recognizes the time is up

5:21

what's your gut instinct though the said

5:23

it over and again even today in parliament

5:26

and the like said no way

5:28

i mean i have a mandate he said

5:31

there is a possibility

5:33

and course this is something that we keep struggling

5:35

with that he will try to cling on like a

5:37

cartoon banana republic dictator

5:41

that it's almost impossible

5:43

to , him out until fifty

5:45

one percent of his them department go against

5:48

him look at gonna be if he'd open go

5:50

today which any normal person would

5:52

but you're right he may not the next

5:54

big challenge is monday when the

5:56

monday when committee called the night and twenty two committee

5:58

will almost certainly changed

5:59

the room to get rid of him so i

6:02

i i think we're now finally in a situation

6:04

where i at least some confidence that

6:07

he's got howard the

6:10

days left only and there's no way he can run

6:12

a government because what's already been happening as

6:14

the last three four months is that because

6:17

you have been so many scandals he's been

6:19

fighting every day rarely

6:21

to try to stay in office he is unable

6:24

to govern you in the top of the so you talked

6:26

about many of the problems facing

6:28

britain and of course as with the united states

6:31

and europe we are entering one

6:33

of the most difficult period since the sept

6:35

mobile we haven't begun

6:37

to take on board the possibility

6:39

that we're going to merge into a second economic

6:42

recession so shortly after the current recession

6:45

china may make moves against taiwan

6:47

which could lead to sanctions and counter sections

6:49

which paralyzed our economy and this just examples

6:52

the scale of the challenges the boris

6:55

johnson assessing so you

6:57

ceremony my appointment you appointment

6:59

you earlier on

7:00

that is ironic that is this

7:02

issue that might toppled him when they have been so

7:04

many other massive issues so

7:07

i want to asked you about that but

7:09

first i want to play a sound bite from the

7:11

health minister who did read

7:13

out in parliament today or declare the

7:15

reasons why you could no longer support

7:17

boris johnson and was calling for his resignation

7:20

and why he had resigned

7:24

we have to gray report added

7:26

you downing street teeth i

7:28

continued to give the benefits

7:30

of without an ,

7:33

this week again again have reason

7:35

to question the truth of integrity or

7:37

what we've all been all at

7:40

some point we

7:42

have to conclude that

7:44

enough is enough at

7:47

believe that point is no

7:50

so two things rory give

7:52

us a list of have some of the egregious

7:54

things that boris johnson has actually been found

7:57

to have violated and

7:59

the british public things

8:02

when it here's a senior ministers speak like

8:04

that in public to the

8:06

face of the prime minister

8:09

it's pretty extraordinary books i'm an added

8:12

to to run through the events and

8:14

he correct parliament

8:16

to try to drive through breaks know let's try to shut

8:18

the door of parliament he ,

8:21

twenty one members of his own posse

8:23

including me in because

8:25

we tried to vote against and that again as

8:27

something it's almost never been done by prime minister

8:29

that with the beginning the challenging

8:31

the constitution he broke

8:34

them in a serial code by lying to parliament

8:36

and then he tried to rewrite the minister okay

8:38

to say that one didn't need to resign

8:41

if he like parliament he

8:43

, to rewrite lobbying

8:45

rules when one of his close friends with some

8:47

breaking lobbying rules he tried to abolish the committee

8:49

to deal with them he illegal

8:52

money from donors to wallpaper his

8:54

flat he tried to get another

8:57

dentist spend two hundred thousand

8:59

us dollars on building a tree house

9:01

for him he's

9:03

, presided over over

9:06

parties and downing street during

9:08

a time when britain had some of them as severe cope

9:10

with lockdown wealth for people that

9:12

she couldn't visit dying relatives in hospital

9:15

or ten funerals with the famous picture of the

9:17

queen sitting isolated the queen philip's

9:20

funerals the time when boris was having

9:22

boss is wine and downing street but most

9:24

recently he appointed

9:26

as a deputy chief whip a man who

9:29

he knew to have been

9:32

guilty of sexual assault

9:35

earlier he lost his job for sex with

9:37

salt he was warned repeatedly

9:40

and he appointed him and then when the man

9:43

assaulted somebody this is chris venture

9:45

in the london club earlier this

9:47

week he denied that he had any

9:49

knowledge that despite the fact that he was going

9:51

round joking cancer by name picture

9:54

by nature and finally the permit

9:56

six three six some such to the foreign office when

9:58

i'm a senior civil servants and government

9:59

read perform a letter to the imagery

10:02

committee

10:03

finding out how much by ourselves with dying this

10:05

final thing which comes on the top

10:07

of having lost to enormous by elections

10:09

last one of the safest conservative seats in the country

10:12

seems to been friendly the thing with dread people

10:14

as the line but to be honest as i list or

10:17

that it is extraordinary the people lasted

10:19

so long them in there is the sort of the

10:21

evening of it was a bit reminiscent of what

10:23

went on the donald trump which is the more that happened

10:26

the more people forgot what he does say that

10:28

every and synth against see more more trivial

10:31

exactly i mean that is a mass the

10:33

rap sheet so to speak i mean that the a

10:35

rap sheet the length of my arms and legs

10:37

the you know it's it's really extraordinary

10:40

and i want to ask you though because your party

10:42

or the former party the the conservative

10:45

party has traditionally

10:48

been described

10:51

as pretty ruthless when

10:53

the rubber hits the road in other words when

10:55

start losing elections and you are

10:57

no longer a grade campaign

10:59

as said then they will turf

11:01

you outs so boris johnson keep saying

11:04

that you know this is this is downing street

11:06

and his defense that the prime

11:08

minister is delivering on what the people put

11:10

us here to do he has a mandate from

11:13

fourteen million people but

11:15

i want to read you the latest polls

11:17

the diluted to just before the resignations

11:19

of those two top ministers yesterday

11:22

ah in the like ability ratings

11:24

of the two leaders boris johnson is at twenty

11:27

seven percent this is a drop of twelve

11:29

points since last september

11:31

says labour counterpart is a thirty

11:33

eight percent are life ability ratings

11:36

in terms of parties tories and thirty

11:38

two percent labour forty four percent

11:40

and as we said our there's been a ten

11:43

point drop in

11:45

or increase frankly in the number

11:47

of britons who say that boris johnson should

11:49

resign

11:49

so again it

11:51

is the elections and losing them that

11:53

is that is probably going to be the

11:56

defy

11:56

the moment for the tory party

12:00

that's absolutely right at the in

12:03

the end i remember when i was trying

12:05

to convince people not to vote for him i mean this

12:07

man has been known as

12:09

as and a disgrace his his

12:11

public my record he his

12:13

private life is eat more equity this has been famous

12:16

for thirty years he's he was a big

12:18

celebrity before he became a politician

12:21

and partly famous for his tail sick

12:23

personal behavior and his lies six

12:25

when i challenge them supplements back

12:28

and twenty nineteen and said how can you

12:30

possibly imagine this man is fantasy he's

12:32

so clearly on set for us as

12:34

the answer was well he can win

12:36

elections and yep she went on and twenty

12:38

nineteen to win this extraordinary majority and

12:40

eighty seat majority which

12:42

was very very remarkable because it was the fourth

12:44

conservative term in a row now

12:47

of course when it becomes clear as you pointed

12:49

out with a statistics that he is no

12:51

longer intellectual asset people

12:54

are now beginning to remember what should have been

12:57

cleared him all along which is the man is disgraceful

12:59

human being

13:00

can i did play a little

13:03

the snippet of what boris

13:04

the said quite defined still in parliament

13:07

today

13:09

the job of the prime

13:11

minister in difficult circumstances

13:13

when you have to feel so bad that see

13:15

succeed as i thought of as

13:19

well that's what he says

13:21

he's going to do

13:22

we've heard all the reasons why you think

13:24

that you know time is running short

13:26

i'm been any blimey as a

13:28

play would

13:29

his opposite number said kissed

13:31

imma across the dispatch box

13:35

podium power because he's be

13:37

propped up for months by a corrupted

13:40

parties defending the indefensible

13:44

so are i assume the you

13:46

agree because of everything you be say but

13:48

but again one of the things that analysts

13:51

and the pundits can say well you know who

13:53

else is there you know cat

13:56

food and tories have and put up

13:58

you know it boris johnson

13:59

goes

14:01

so so what do you say to that

14:04

add some basic level almost

14:07

any body and parliament would be a that a premise

14:09

that than boris johnson and larry the downing

14:11

street cats at the moment would be about

14:13

apprentice that because that the point is that

14:16

he he simply can't govern the

14:18

whole thing as the com like a a a

14:20

reality tv show the

14:22

has been going on for months

14:24

it's impossible for him to have a long-term

14:26

economic policy it's impossible for him

14:28

to announce any policies will be

14:30

taken seriously because every

14:33

single week fair with another scandal

14:35

almost all of them have a then creation

14:37

almost all of them made worse he

14:40

lies and try to avoid before he finally

14:42

comes three so

14:44

who else is a well there is a

14:46

risky sue neck and such a job or to

14:48

these two very senior cabinet ministers

14:51

who resigned yesterday that's

14:53

jeremy hunt who was took him on before

14:55

who was i suppose this that kind of

14:58

leader of the old guard didn't

15:01

she even not and zahawi who is the

15:03

new child should fix your company maybe the sources

15:06

that just accept from world history he

15:08

took this apparent poisoned chalice

15:10

this morning and a

15:13

the chances are if i'm

15:15

right that he's gonna hold the job for any a few

15:17

hours

15:18

it is an extraordinary situation

15:21

your former minister thank you so much

15:23

the for joining us

15:28

the latest supreme court ruling to update

15:31

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15:33

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15:59

and now

15:59

a downing street for us is correspondent

16:02

nick robinson and make you just heard royce

16:04

you're talking about the various characters

16:06

including the current chancellor nadeem

16:09

the hallways who we are hearing through

16:11

the atmosphere is in downing

16:13

three behind you with a group of colleagues

16:15

would you know about that and what is their intention

16:18

yeah we'll see nate endorser transport

16:21

secretary go and they are secretary

16:23

for housing grant

16:25

, go and as well well

16:27

giving any clues were say when city fat

16:29

grams simpsons have a sort of sprinted

16:31

off the street to avoid the quests the barrage of

16:34

barrage the expectation

16:36

is that they are in their to tell the prime

16:38

minister that this is a time to go we know

16:40

that has long time political

16:42

a political ally political for a

16:45

long time cabinet college senior

16:47

member and the cabinets michael

16:49

gove has already told him today

16:51

that it is time to resign for your

16:53

own good for the good of the party for the good

16:55

of the country thanks to sat down and

16:57

move out of the way i see way other sort

16:59

of bullets been loves of thought into

17:01

boris johnson's call this afternoon

17:03

off the hearings not only

17:06

a prime minister's questions i'm not only in

17:08

the committee hearings were he has

17:10

said that he will continue to fight on continue

17:12

to take his mandate and do his job

17:14

as as up as the public of ah sim city

17:17

of the nineteen twenty two committee

17:19

of that sense committee a conservative

17:22

mps seems to be taking

17:24

action that is signal to tell is prime

17:26

minister they could have

17:28

a vote of no confidence in him as

17:30

early as next week and it still seem to be a forgone

17:32

conclusion what that would want

17:34

that vote would he would go against

17:36

the prime minister that scene for sense of so

17:39

all of this is starting up the weight

17:41

starting off on as you say that

17:43

a cabinet members of my senior

17:45

not in a hurry as you say inside

17:48

odd numbers and number eleven right

17:50

now waiting for the prime minister's return

17:52

as off i have to say dozens

17:55

upon dozens upon dozens of

17:57

journalists yes of

17:59

course there are

17:59

there is an amazing political crisis

18:02

and and and everybody wants to see whether this houdini

18:05

is going to be able to pull out one

18:07

of his old tricks again spinning

18:09

this is quickly asked when you expect

18:12

him back and says

18:14

also you know rory stewart alluded

18:16

to in boris johnson has been known

18:18

and in fact censored for his this

18:20

honesty and misleading behaviors

18:23

before he was adjourned lived at

18:25

he he he was fired from his

18:28

newspaper for making up a quotes he

18:30

was a minister and he was fired

18:32

from his position for not telling the

18:34

truth to parliament about an extramarital affairs

18:37

this stuff has stalled

18:39

him throughout his career

18:41

eventually it

18:44

will suffer weight or and that's what appears

18:46

to be the case now you know

18:48

the proverbial promo this is the straw

18:50

that broke the camel's back and chris

18:53

, pincers

18:56

misconduct over the past weeks

18:58

or and everything the way that boris

19:00

johnson has handled it has exposed

19:03

him to dot additional straw

19:05

that is now was it on him at it does seem to be

19:07

the one that says this finally going to cross

19:10

his aspirations for as

19:12

he was talking about only weeks ago a third term

19:15

in office you know that the message coming

19:17

from his party's the message coming from the public

19:20

the public coming around for

19:22

him and as that he moscow he seems

19:24

to be the only one who is seth

19:26

to ads are an extraordinarily

19:29

are cristiane it is

19:31

as you say such a historic moment and

19:33

and are so many journalists lined up but i'm looking

19:35

through to the foreign office which is you know from your

19:37

time down here assist the other side of the camera

19:39

side his yes people

19:42

working in the british foreign office woman

19:44

foreign common it's foreign

19:47

and commonwealth woman development office aligned

19:50

up of the policy and looking into down his face

19:52

to see what's gonna happen to the prime minister

19:55

the eyes of gonna countries around the

19:57

streets on the spot right now

19:59

it's an extraordinary situation and

20:02

as royce true said one entirely of the prime

20:04

minister's own making on nick

20:06

robinson thank you very much for more

20:08

on this will be returned to mark malloch brown

20:10

sees a member of the house of lords

20:12

and he's also president of the open society

20:15

foundations his join me now from pennsylvania

20:18

so lord malloch brown welcome

20:20

to the program it is fair to say

20:22

that it will go we also on to our program

20:25

to talk about something other we will get

20:27

to it's by being that you are british

20:29

that you are in the house of lords and

20:32

this crisis is unfolding in

20:34

this country it's what is your view

20:36

from where you are on what's happening and

20:38

way you think is going to leave

20:41

well of course boris johnson has just gotten

20:43

back from a ten day to almost

20:46

round the world trip to at least a series

20:48

of of summits dad nato

20:50

and and and i i g seven

20:53

and commonwealth some it's and that

20:55

was a boris johnson who was in

20:57

our own as good as form as it gets

20:59

i'm in leading on ukraine

21:02

of very much america's closest

21:04

partner or on those european

21:07

security issues as

21:09

it claiming that he was able to be so

21:11

forward leaning because he was no longer constrained

21:14

by the edu membership of

21:16

the past it's success so

21:18

inner he came he landed back in

21:20

britain with a bump i instead of

21:22

you're having like american presidents do

21:24

when they travel abroad gutting that

21:26

list in the polls he found

21:29

himself dropped on his backside

21:31

quicker than he could have imagined with you

21:33

know an incident which in it's beginnings was

21:35

quite small i mean a groping

21:38

deputy chief whip getting drunk

21:41

in a tory clubs didn't compared

21:43

to the transgressions of johnson

21:45

and his government in the past seem

21:48

to be in the same lead but you know what

21:50

it's done of course is returned

21:52

from this is a man

21:54

who lies and ultimately

21:56

the british political culture i

21:59

just the swallow that

22:02

you are a labor b

22:04

a labour peer and obviously

22:06

you know your your party leader kier

22:08

starmer

22:10

i guess this this

22:12

is great for him although is it

22:15

does he want to see boris johnson

22:17

get turfed out now or

22:19

would it be better for him when an election does

22:21

com and it was meant to happen in a couple of years to

22:24

fight what presumably would

22:26

have been an increasing the week boris

22:28

johnson how do you think the labour party

22:30

looks at it

22:33

whether it'll a little have lost in these headlines

22:35

as the fact that kids starmer faces

22:37

his own threat to his leadership

22:39

and that he's being investigated

22:41

for a partying

22:44

charge during carried locked down

22:46

a , humbler milder events

22:49

ah them what went on in downing street but

22:51

one which he said if he found guilty of

22:53

and find by the police he will

22:55

resign as party leader so it's

22:58

not impossible that will find

23:00

you know both parties ah

23:03

in engaged in leadership elections

23:05

i think in truth you

23:07

know chest armor will

23:11

be relieved like the rest of the country by

23:13

a change in prime minister in mean

23:15

you know we all maybe party creatures

23:18

but web brits first and foremost

23:20

first in our country is in terrible

23:23

crisis with a looming and

23:25

only worsening economic crisis

23:27

economic food and fuel prices etc

23:30

and you know and in

23:33

government the just com functions or

23:35

isn't great for any of us and i suspect

23:37

starmer would and i by the way i'm a

23:39

crossbench another labour peer anymore but

23:41

i think starmer would probably

23:44

prefer to face a slightly

23:46

more effective tory leader said

23:48

that a country he hopes tory inherit often

23:50

election interest still a functioning

23:53

country and as a shot at beating

23:55

it's economic problems

23:57

so let me ask you know

23:59

really the me

23:59

the reason why we had previous to this

24:02

moment of crisis invited you on but is it goes

24:04

five see what you were talking about

24:06

the fad said boris johnson

24:08

is weakened at home and then presumably

24:11

on able to deliver on the kinds

24:13

of foreign policy pledges

24:15

the kind of necessity in that that you're necessary

24:18

british help

24:19

the the world that that that you calling for

24:21

you wrote about

24:22

the g seven some it would you mention that

24:25

the leaders that missed a chance

24:27

you said there was a nice to have a

24:29

marshall plan

24:31

the outline for the well basically in ukraine

24:33

and because of the food crisis around

24:35

the well but

24:36

of course they got you said was

24:38

a bandaid instead talk

24:41

us through that what does somebody

24:42

like british prime minister or the french

24:44

president or the german chancellor such

24:46

mention the us presence what are they need

24:48

to do in your view for

24:50

the to address these issues

24:53

what was sadly this british government and this

24:55

prime minister of pretty much ruled themselves

24:57

out of much for a role or misc as a slashed

25:00

british foreign aid cutting more than four billion

25:03

pounds from it taking it from point seven

25:05

percent of our gdp to five percent

25:08

army point five percent i'm

25:10

and i'm

25:13

in are enduring that they've lost leadership

25:15

on this so johnson's leadership is really just

25:17

about ukraine but at the g seven

25:20

some it there was

25:22

talk of talk marshall plan for ukraine

25:24

and my counterpoint is look

25:26

ukraine is the tip of a wider crisis

25:29

and that you can is also exacerbated

25:31

that crisis which crisis a crisis

25:34

of the sort of break down as break kind of global

25:36

economy translated into mass

25:39

is surprising creases and food

25:41

supply disruptions massive

25:43

energy prices disruptions and increases

25:46

with our oil now above one hundred and

25:48

twenty dollars twenty barrel and

25:50

the unless we can address that wider

25:52

crisis them were going to lose

25:55

the war for this narrative

25:57

around ukraine doesn't suit

25:59

ukraine in his allies are arguing

26:01

that the food crisis is western

26:04

injuries but were stopping russian

26:06

grains and ukrainian brains and

26:09

russian fertilizes from reaching

26:11

the world markets it's much more complicated

26:13

than that but what is the case

26:16

is the west seems so

26:18

consumed by ukraine and a war

26:20

in europe that it cannot focus

26:23

on a global crisis which

26:25

threatens at least as many lives

26:27

tragically through hunger and

26:29

and economic hardship as

26:31

the war in ukraine to

26:33

it's not a matter of i the or it's not

26:36

a matter of losing our focus on a more

26:38

created by an extraordinary act

26:40

of russian ruthless aggression

26:43

and intervention but it's a matter

26:45

of being able to deal with to problems

26:47

at once juggle a couple of balls at the

26:49

same time i'm really get focused

26:52

on this why to crisis the un reports

26:54

of around ninety four countries

26:57

which have got have triple crisis

26:59

as food fuel and death

27:01

and death moment this is as bad

27:03

a moment as we seen in decades

27:06

and the west is not asleep at the wheel

27:08

but so preoccupied with ukraine

27:11

that it's not offering leadership on this

27:13

wider prices

27:15

lord malloch brown standby were having some issues

27:17

with your actual satellite and within

27:19

a comeback to that for some more of the foreign policies

27:22

and the development policy but return to our

27:24

next guess who's spent korea

27:26

on the opposite side of the political divide of course

27:28

to boris johnson odyssey campbell was

27:30

spokesperson and advisor to the former labour

27:32

prime minister tony blair spend more recently

27:35

he's been building bridges hosting

27:37

the podcast that arrest is politics

27:40

with war is should office guess

27:42

tonight's out of so welcome to the program

27:44

i don't know the you heard our conversation with roy

27:46

be you've of as he been discussing it's in your podcast

27:48

anyway that this

27:51

does seem the moments that

27:53

the

27:54

there are we going to hit a vultures but actually i

27:56

don't know somebody circling to finally

27:58

get rid of boris johnson

27:59

do you agree

28:01

well i hope so we

28:03

, i had a bet on the podcast recently

28:05

i said i didn't see the johnson was vote in isolation

28:08

royce or that he would by the royal

28:10

sets off it any be with the physical

28:12

brain in their heads accepts either boris johnson

28:14

is toast is finished and the see

28:16

the the see that the better and

28:19

it was m c listening to mama brown that absolutely

28:22

right the big challenges home and abroad

28:24

or not being confronted the british

28:26

government british effectively impotent

28:28

and disable don't some parades is parades great war

28:30

leader is using his alleged he the same

28:33

the uses everything else and comes in his path

28:35

he says only about his own survival he's

28:37

got no plan for britain is got no vision for

28:39

the so called global britain that is building after

28:42

breaks it breaks his go wrong the economy's

28:44

go wrong public services go wrong and

28:46

is utterly the based the standards

28:48

are which pushes public life is meant to be run

28:51

so honestly i just i want to see him

28:53

out him want to see him out him

28:55

want to see the whole rotten cabinet our

28:57

to propped up i wanna see our media

28:59

culture change because they popped him up as well

29:02

and i see the use talking about serving his third

29:04

term digital services amps

29:06

services think supposed to be prisoners you be serving

29:08

for misconduct serving public office is an

29:10

utter disgrace for the series out

29:13

series better right allison don't pull your punches

29:15

or i shall not not on this show this saw

29:17

not

29:18

the let me ask you he was found

29:20

to have broken the law that is what signing

29:22

him was that is what the police actually

29:24

declares

29:25

over the party gate arm

29:27

affair see

29:29

why wasn't he held account

29:30

well as a say i

29:32

think the our political and media systems

29:34

are failing in this country he's

29:36

not held took over to account because our constitution

29:39

is always depended on the idea

29:41

that people get to the top ultimately

29:44

are good chops they will do

29:46

the right thing they are honest that decent

29:48

they are honorable people you still

29:50

to this day can't call him a liar

29:53

in the house of commons because you cannot called

29:55

another member of parliament elias the guy

29:57

is a pathological liars who be

29:59

lying

29:59

to those cabinet ministers who try

30:02

to they say i have to say i'm in the

30:04

subject javid and others they talked

30:06

about dishonesty they talked about

30:08

and and and as the see new five or not

30:10

honorary to that they will tolerate to this they've

30:12

known it all his life he was a liar

30:14

as a journalist he was alive as mayor of

30:16

london the guy is incapable

30:18

of telling the truth

30:19

the winner he was a great campaigner

30:22

and that's why he is where he is

30:23

he got a massive majority got have been

30:25

around he was half of mine who's a big which case

30:28

and he broke through your red label war right

30:30

okay let me just say he he was

30:32

half majority that we will in iceland so

30:35

he was up against jeremy corbyn you i bleed the country

30:37

was never going to its prime minister and

30:39

yet again campaigned on a

30:41

pack of lies about braces and

30:43

the tragedy about johnson is the he's

30:45

gonna go and he's going to be condemned the

30:47

dustbin of history however brace

30:50

is gonna be with us for some scientists it on then

30:52

okay let's just jump ahead men that

30:55

say he goes said citizen they're election

30:57

sooner rather than later and kissed

30:59

armor is actually in a challenge

31:01

that alexis kiss dharma has said

31:03

breaks it is done there's no

31:05

way no how that any

31:07

there's gonna be changed our freedom of movement

31:09

not whatever the you know who's a

31:11

trade nothing that it's going to continue

31:13

like that will other one of the difference and

31:15

well

31:16

leo give you some released an honest

31:18

guy you blues in public services has integrity

31:21

however let me say on the i don't agree with labor

31:23

position on breaks that i think the ultimately

31:25

leadership is about telling the truth about the state

31:27

of the country the challenge that faces no i completely

31:30

understand the politically is very difficult to reverse

31:32

the decision but there is lots you can do

31:35

the improve the way things are there of things you

31:37

can do now to fix it or not pro golf i

31:39

think it's silly to rule out the customs union

31:42

and l ne americans are going to get very

31:44

very angry you

31:46

know policy wise and trade why

31:49

believes this northern ireland protocol is on the

31:51

northern i'm on the northern on question joe

31:53

biden has been northern on a lot of american

31:55

politicians care about northern on forest

31:57

on some couldn't give a damn

32:00

the good friday agreement was not invented

32:02

here breaks it was invented here

32:04

and he has to pretend that brought where

32:06

the noise on breaks it

32:07

wouldn't what is the one of the people saying they

32:10

there is limited people like me

32:12

personally against leaving the european union

32:14

breaks initially couldn't the latest polling breaks in

32:16

our matters more to was than it

32:18

does to those who were passionately

32:21

believe because is gone down the

32:23

order in service or what people care about be whatever

32:25

the cost of living crisis i think brace is related

32:28

to that the care about their public services ditto but

32:30

listen i accept the nice selection there's

32:33

not going to be about whether we go back in their views

32:35

not i wish that were the case but it's not now

32:38

the also

32:40

he has in my view delivered precisely

32:43

nothing as prime minister he

32:45

goes of think i'm trying to write my

32:47

brain's not be avoided a what they say

32:49

what they say is that you were the biggest roll

32:51

out the best brawler oxymoron us with

32:53

a good person roller very good as a brilliant scientist

32:56

with i see done icy pretty badly

32:58

on the economy in relation to cove it's he goes on

33:00

about ukraine

33:02

the british military despite

33:04

a decade of austerity shredding it's is

33:06

still pretty strong and has done a good job

33:09

and politically this be massive support the

33:11

idea that is janson some kind of winston

33:13

churchill is a joke and then suddenly

33:15

he got breaks it done or brace is turning

33:17

out to be complete disaster public service

33:19

or so far as loudly as he promises

33:21

huge remember the bus the same as bus with

33:24

the hundreds of millions of pounds allowed

33:26

to the i share theirs alone now the nhs is hurting

33:28

there was a lie he looks the guy the

33:30

guy lies pathologically compulsively

33:33

he doesn't know the difference i mean too many companies

33:35

i have a lot of criticism donny cummings

33:37

producing is right mrs johnson literary

33:40

doesn't know there is little by

33:42

reducing our ports as worries to tell stories

33:44

virtually every week of lines

33:46

that were told to him of lies that were told

33:48

to colleagues for i know for a fact that

33:50

there are world leaders who actually heard

33:52

of our and him a daughter of

33:54

a lot of you i know that for for the present president

33:56

macro a broken

33:58

about the fact the don't

33:59

lighter

34:01

light to his face and the is a big

34:03

thing to do well leads the will lead us you

34:05

know people might think politicians lie with saw in

34:07

truth they don't the dip that they do diplomacy

34:09

and sometimes you don't allow truths you don't

34:12

tell direct lies to each other

34:13

can i ask you m

34:14

about your own party leader right now kiss

34:17

[unk] dharma i'm as as as

34:19

expelled from my part okay my mum yes

34:21

a number so where are you now then why are you

34:23

in on how to silver lining

34:24

was actually a few former prime minister

34:27

is trying to create a third way so maybe

34:29

you'll be advised about will talk about that in a moment

34:31

since you

34:32

they politics a dysfunctional the first

34:34

and foremost lord malloch brown reminded everybody

34:36

it also kissed armor has

34:38

police inquiry meet you know

34:40

the the cat a the kettle calling the pot

34:42

black

34:43

what is going to school i flew

34:45

i don't know a but i don't see

34:47

you can remotely compare what

34:50

on the surface was guess i'm having

34:52

a bottle of beer working away

34:54

from home with some colleagues have they been

34:56

campaigning and culture

34:58

we didn't downey strays of utter

35:00

impunity about law breaking down

35:03

his ten downing street is not the most find

35:05

building in the united kingdom ellis's

35:08

off ago he was the first prime minister to

35:10

the breathe aligned and to be alone major

35:12

separate there's no major says that should

35:14

be the most moment conservative you break the

35:16

law you've got to go south

35:19

tony blair has said in

35:21

one free elections like margaret thatcher

35:23

one really then like boris johnson says he

35:25

will do yeah well tony blair said

35:27

i'm that again i'm going to fly a

35:30

you need that amount of time like ten

35:32

years i she did

35:33

never transformative change

35:35

but be he has now come out

35:37

with a an alternative he wants

35:39

to try to see whether he can again

35:42

find some mid

35:43

the ground of politics as that's

35:45

neither extreme right left but can

35:47

actually get governance done

35:49

can you tell us where that stands

35:51

and does it have a hope in

35:54

how well i think it is

35:56

certainly can make contributions to the debate and

35:58

i think is already doing that

35:59

during the time royals to and

36:02

i interviewed tony la porta potties last week

36:04

and and i said to him don't you think this is an

36:06

indication of the failure

36:08

the the main parties that you're even

36:10

having to buy feel that you do this and i sometimes

36:12

feel that i sort of feel a sixty nine

36:14

on sixty five i so wish we could just disappear

36:17

off the of the the state i'm sure lots of

36:19

stories do as well for the reason i think

36:21

we feel we counted because of the politics

36:23

isn't such a mess or not does go

36:25

for the opposition parties his wealth

36:28

or they were tony's trying to do is

36:30

actually to say ultimately it is about

36:32

the development of new ideas it is about policy

36:35

i was the guy who was cues instead of turning though

36:37

the into presentational blas

36:39

is always about ideas and posts eight initial

36:42

to present them well infill to communicate and

36:44

i see those what tony strides it is not say when

36:46

it come over come back and run the country

36:48

or even try to do that but i think as an idea

36:50

is hop

36:51

the is a great idea and look

36:53

tony so somebody who can command spacey

36:55

can make the whether he can get people to debate

36:58

these things and i think it's silly

37:00

of people don't understand that some the like

37:02

him still got a contribution to make the debate

37:04

my regular when asked you will you bus the

37:06

foreign policies of with with regard to ukraine

37:09

and we've got lord malloch brown fat so

37:11

i want to ask you are you talk to us

37:13

about ukraine about the you know the

37:15

fallout from this terrible war

37:17

but what about the commonwealth meeting

37:20

in rwanda that also was a massive

37:22

i live

37:24

of in a big scandal really because

37:26

a boris johnson's the in the midst

37:29

of this very on

37:30

the popular policy or maybe it's not that unpopular

37:32

but

37:33

it was criticized by human rise

37:35

on people ascending asylum see

37:37

the to rwanda

37:40

you i know you've dealt with refugee

37:43

and other is his arm lord malloch

37:45

brown were what do you make of that and were that

37:47

issue is going in this country

37:50

look out and thirty foundations or type

37:53

now had we were appalled

37:55

at this sort of breach of refugees rights

37:57

to ship them off like this and i say that

38:00

despite knowing rwanda very well

38:02

as actually a country which has a much

38:04

more successful development than

38:07

, of it's counterparts in africa

38:09

and you know the expectation that many

38:11

of these be asylum seekers

38:13

might actually have have a reasonable life

38:16

but it's not what they were seeking in it's

38:18

not doesn't comport with britain's

38:20

responsibilities under international

38:22

law or and is a classic

38:25

for the johnson wedge issue i

38:27

thought that i think he really thought he was ever going to be

38:29

of the ship that many ah

38:31

asylum seekers there

38:34

but it was played great with his

38:36

base it was what alice has just

38:38

been talking about the sort the tokenism

38:41

and red flag this of of

38:43

of policies which which roar

38:45

on the base but which don't solve

38:47

the problem they meant to be addressing

38:49

amounts the and three years of

38:51

this man's rule which is you know

38:54

eel do symbolic stuff ah

38:56

but he won do stuff that

38:58

solves problems and you

39:00

know a britain has got such a stacked

39:03

outset now of issues it needs to

39:05

address at home and abroad

39:07

and yeah i just think across

39:09

both sides of the aisle in the breeze parliament

39:12

and across the bridge public at large

39:14

the system anxiety for set a new

39:17

more sort of serious leadership a

39:19

little get kind of stuck in the

39:21

real problems and i just a word on the abroad

39:23

bit of it i mean you i while

39:26

our leaders of respected the fact

39:28

that he's been a cheerleader on ukraine

39:30

and you know i think really respected

39:32

that they see him as respected that

39:35

of one dot one zero

39:37

one was pony he's got no other

39:39

foreign policies got no development

39:41

policy he sort

39:43

of try to be as close to the united states

39:45

as he can and as a somewhat craven

39:47

way but he's not really a partner

39:50

to them and they don't think of him as a partner you

39:52

can't help on development

39:54

issues or the wider a gender anymore

39:56

because he's so cut his budget so

39:59

enough i think you know

40:01

either little bit of a sort of ah

40:03

circus figure abroad as

40:06

he is at home at this point

40:09

thank you so much for joining us tonight lord

40:11

malloch brown ah other sip on

40:13

that issue on the on the refugee issue because

40:15

as a really a big betrayal

40:17

of of the international law regarding

40:20

refugees and they're legitimate right

40:23

would he have no compunction about breaking the

40:25

law the domestic law and we've already seen

40:27

that escape through break international awards and night

40:29

relations the nord long first golf or the

40:31

much rice the the refuse their

40:33

wonder policy muslims about resolving

40:35

the problem it was about exploiting the problem

40:38

he was about getting ridiculous newspapers that

40:40

the mail and expressed in the telegraph going yeah

40:42

yeah yeah let's send them all back to africa like

40:45

all refugees came from africa and

40:48

it just is is this horrible

40:50

putrid appeal to

40:53

the lowest common denominator the in a base

40:55

and most are been really read recently

40:57

the book by moises name the venezuelan guys

40:59

are under the engine power and is subtitles

41:02

how much better autocrats

41:04

a a reshaping politics it was about the

41:07

three piece populism

41:09

polarization and post truth johnson

41:11

is a populist polarizing posters

41:13

leader and that's why i think is were wonderful

41:16

like long as exactly like trump exactly

41:18

my boss and all right there are several of them have plenty

41:21

of them around the world among muslims books brilliant

41:24

books explained he has he traces back to

41:26

berlusconi but there are plenty

41:28

of them and they been winning they

41:30

got to start losing can losing ask

41:32

you ask very important point important point goes to the

41:34

heart of trying to protect

41:37

democracy and our values and this is

41:39

the war in in ukraine russia as unprovoked

41:41

when you face

41:42

the western leaders talk about it as

41:44

not just

41:45

about ukraine which it is but about the greater

41:48

protection of democracy and the rules

41:50

same order an international

41:52

law writ large so

41:54

you are in think in in government

41:56

oh when tony blair joined

41:59

clinton and i don't

42:01

even it wasn't really

42:01

un mandate but nineteen countries

42:04

in kosovo to try to protect

42:07

them from the ravages of

42:09

serbia

42:11

do you see parallels between

42:13

that what's happening

42:16

in ukraine right now do you think despite

42:18

all the pr said actually

42:20

the west is doing enough to help ukraine when

42:23

the shows are is no

42:25

the shooters yes i do see parallels and no

42:27

i don't see that i was more i

42:30

think that

42:31

you said

42:33

it happened we've talked about this before either

42:35

this happened around syria the

42:37

red line of chemical weapons use that was crossed

42:40

and then nothing really happened i think

42:42

he sensed weston weakness exploited

42:44

western leaders in his be suppose you have a sense

42:46

now i completely understand

42:49

why do by the sitting there thinking ukraine's

42:51

bit bigger than the kosovo and is think he rushes

42:54

bit maybe a bit stronger than and serbia

42:56

and we really don't start a third will will

42:58

will i get that but of the same time

43:01

i think there isn't a bit of unbend to be

43:03

and to be fair to joe biden i did

43:05

he has nearly enough credit for the lead to be shown

43:07

relations ukraine johnson parades

43:09

is putting this coalition together biden

43:12

is get ready for his money where his mouth is on

43:14

this and other the years of credit for that

43:16

but of the same time i don't

43:18

think the ukrainians are sitting there thinking they

43:20

think they're all talking a good game the

43:23

are they actually help him begins with a

43:25

russia consulted a and under billion in the

43:27

east or nazi we talked about this for crush on

43:29

this i felt for some time

43:31

now the dividing line has been coming

43:33

across the world and that dividing line is actually

43:35

between democracy and dictatorship under

43:38

dictatorships of the moment i think still think

43:40

they think they're winning amazing the we're

43:42

weak and they are strong and they can

43:44

get on with away with a lot more because that's

43:46

the tasers now don't want or not to pursue

43:49

become dictatorships i am suggesting

43:51

this is the syrian was his name's book that

43:54

the an awful lot of leaders around the world

43:56

who are trying to subvert the democracies

43:59

to see themselves and their own interests

44:02

and the guy who's hopefully being kicked out of of

44:04

is here quite soon he's definitely among

44:06

them

44:07

really fascinating is such a huge big

44:09

picture the way you will pay this is not

44:11

just a local political crisis sure others

44:13

to campbell thank you very much indeed

44:20

the latest supreme court ruling to updates

44:22

on ukraine when the biggest story of the moment

44:24

breaks you count on cnn to be there

44:27

and now will deliver the latest developments right

44:29

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44:31

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44:34

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tell your smart speaker to play the news from

44:44

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44:50

a nice we're going to get some

44:52

perspective on on this moment

44:54

in british politics with the eminent historian

44:57

margaret macmillan season emeritus

44:59

professor at oxford university it's and she's

45:01

professor of history at the university of toronto

45:04

welcome back to our program professor mcmillan

45:08

to be back thanks is so to

45:10

follow up on what honesty campbell was just

45:12

saying i want to play the first a

45:14

soundbite of boris johnson's

45:16

using the ukraine war the

45:19

reason to stay where he is this is play this

45:21

sound bite

45:24

the country goes into times and

45:26

, did that we had the ah

45:29

the biggest said and thirteen a a mckeith

45:31

are appointed night and i teach

45:34

rights and ah i

45:36

look it's the as he sees in

45:38

this country faces i look at the

45:42

end of the pressures of people are are under

45:44

the money to govern money focus on and on

45:46

on on on priorities and which is

45:48

what we are doing either fits

45:50

have the biggest who are you referring for eight

45:53

years and i

45:55

fell for the life of me as seem

45:57

to hide his response buddhist have to walk

45:59

away from that

46:00

so that was a big big big basket

46:02

but he also put in in that's

46:04

the idea that he would be required to stay

46:07

to help maintain

46:08

the progress of the ukrainian

46:11

defense in in your

46:13

view

46:14

how does that said

46:17

terribly am i think it may

46:19

not have made sense even earlier on

46:21

but i don't think makes sense now and

46:23

is the point about a strong democracy which britain

46:26

remains is that individual

46:28

leaders can come and go with the country will

46:31

still go on and and to boris johnson to says

46:33

he's the only one who can

46:35

do whatever it needs it seems to me is

46:38

hubris and on i think it's now

46:40

he's not meeting the fate of those who have hubris

46:43

it's all coming undone a he's not irreplaceable

46:46

and in fact more more people are thinking the sooner

46:48

he's a place the better

46:49

before we just dive down

46:51

the bit more historically on that with you i

46:53

just want to follow up on what alice

46:54

it was saying what we've been talking about recently

46:57

despite their promises despite

46:59

the billions despite you know the

47:01

the the the support for the lenski

47:03

and ukrainians russia is

47:05

what russia does

47:07

then it plodding along and playing

47:09

the long game and consolidating as we

47:11

speak in the don't bass and

47:13

it may very well and

47:14

with that eastern pod totally

47:16

under his control historically

47:18

since you've covered all of this a new

47:21

tool so much about the politics

47:23

and the art of war where do you think

47:25

we are it now in this moment

47:28

i find it very hard to say because we're

47:30

right in the middle of it and we don't know

47:32

what ukrainian forces are planning we don't know

47:35

we know that they're counter attacking our along

47:37

and in the south and we i

47:39

think cannot foresee what's going to happen

47:41

in the winter i think he's ukrainian

47:43

forces can hang on until

47:46

the late fall and winter and regroup

47:48

during the winter it may be very different story

47:50

in the spring what is clear is

47:52

that russia's damaged itself and damage says

47:54

capacitive size as report in the press

47:56

today that the russian authorities and

47:58

now offering convict money to

48:01

go and fight in ukraine not offering them any

48:03

any training to send go in on this

48:05

you get killed will give your family equivalent

48:07

of sixty thousand dollars that seems to

48:09

me a desperate power which is

48:11

recognizing that it's arms power as on

48:13

powers is running ads that

48:16

that's that's typical

48:18

the cannon fodder doctor and i guess

48:20

so let's get back to to the

48:22

the bathroom at hand here in the uk the

48:25

big picture it is about

48:28

democracy rule of law

48:30

and following the rules of the

48:32

game and we just been speaking throughout the hours

48:34

as to why boris johnson finds himself

48:37

in this position fighting flouted all

48:39

those rules of the political

48:41

game having even flouted the north

48:44

where does that said

48:45

directly in in

48:47

you know in in british history and

48:49

i'm minister

48:51

i finding his heard think of another peril

48:53

of i'm in britain is have some some pretty bad prime minister's

48:55

like any country has i think

48:58

what has been the case certainly since the

49:00

end of the eighteenth century is it there has

49:02

been of an unspoken understanding

49:04

about how you behave and when you leave

49:06

office peter hennessy that the great

49:08

historian and himself was involved

49:10

in politics put it very well he said you know we somehow

49:13

got find a decent chap here

49:15

is that a decent shops won't

49:17

do certain things and if they caught out so

49:20

not decent chap some they leave office and

49:22

office think what's been different about boris johnson and

49:24

of being politicians before who tried

49:26

to get away with away with that he's not only

49:28

broken those on spelt spoken understandings but

49:31

he has got away with it and in i kept

49:33

on thinking a year ago or

49:35

even longer ago and dominic cummings made that

49:38

up completely illegal trip up to the

49:40

north during the cold in lockdown that this

49:42

would be the thing that brought the government down and is hasn't

49:45

but i think what's happened like the building

49:47

up behind a damn is that suddenly

49:49

he's a lot of people are saying enough is enough

49:52

and those in the three you supported him and said

49:54

good old morrissey so amusing is so funny

49:56

and no longer finding it very amusing

49:58

i know do the people around

50:00

the world although some still do what

50:03

does is due to britain's place in the world

50:06

well i'm wondering about that look i'm i'm canadian

50:09

and i spend part of my my year in canada

50:11

and what canadian friend says ms what's happened

50:13

to britain know and we've always look

50:16

to britain we know that for the british government's

50:18

like any governments make mistakes that we've always

50:20

want to britain as a very solid democracy a country

50:22

that when it gets into trouble has

50:24

the capacity to right itself and i think

50:26

there's a feeling that britain has become frivolous

50:29

and it's approach the world but it hasn't been serious

50:31

that it can't be counted upon know that

50:33

the fact that the british government seems prepared

50:36

at of has been prepared to overthrow the

50:38

northern ireland protocol unilaterally

50:40

really says something about the way britain is

50:42

regarded around the world as you don't keep your word

50:45

i'm where are you

50:47

and of course just for american jews and they will

50:49

know cause you know we've talked about his on this program

50:51

that in in in broad is

50:54

a part of the brakes it deals

50:56

that threatens the good friday agreement

50:58

that the united states and britain

51:00

helped broker with our

51:02

with the all sides in northern ireland so

51:05

when you went when when you look at this and we were

51:07

talking about populism and

51:10

you know nationalism and

51:12

a liberal democracies liberal

51:15

some of our our guests before

51:17

you said that said

51:19

boris johnson fits all of those tix

51:21

all of those boxes

51:24

what do you think that does

51:26

in this moment where across

51:28

the world suddenly the united states is

51:30

trying to need a proper

51:32

campaign

51:33

shoulda forces to protect democracies

51:35

against autocracies and a liberal

51:37

democracies

51:40

i think at the moment regina can play out either

51:42

way i'm in one of the things that his surprise me

51:44

pleasantly is the way in which the west

51:46

which causes no longer geographical term

51:48

it's something that encompasses japan australia

51:51

the americas europe much of europe

51:53

the west has rallied

51:55

has recognize that it has core

51:57

values that it wants to defend and israel

51:59

rallied in support of ukraine

52:02

and and has i think i understood that it

52:04

is yet does actually have something was descending

52:07

what is worrying of course

52:08

the divisions in the west and and those

52:10

in the west themselves will play on those divisions

52:13

i'm in every society has divisions but

52:15

it's when they become toxic and when you stop

52:17

listening to people who disagree with your when you

52:19

assume that those who disagree with you are somehow tracers

52:22

that's dangerous and we have seen that of in that's

52:24

the danger of that so optimism that

52:27

anyone who's not part of your world is not

52:29

part of the people and is therefore an enemy

52:31

and and can be treated like an enemy and i think that's

52:33

dangerous that i think we're going through a

52:36

lot of soul searching in the list of the moment and

52:38

i like to think that it will actually prove beneficial

52:41

that we will understand that our societies

52:43

work because we respect the rule of law will respect

52:45

the democratic norms we expect have a

52:47

free press that we expect to have elections

52:50

of the fairly carried out and that we can

52:52

deal with each other in a tolerance and respect for

52:54

way and so let's hope that out of this

52:57

both what's happening internally in western countries

52:59

but also what's happening ukraine is

53:01

that we come to better understanding of what we value

53:03

and why we value it

53:05

boris johnson may not be been

53:08

a very long for the authors who knows we don't

53:10

know on but we certainly seen this

53:12

sort of strongman appeal or

53:14

whether it's johnson whether it's from weather is

53:16

false and are oshie or pooches

53:19

these people have been remarkably successful

53:22

in

53:23

in their own countries

53:24

but also in vino getting

53:27

their message around the world look

53:29

at us we can do this is it just does

53:31

seem to the very dangerous moment of

53:34

too many people liking

53:37

what the strong men offer that

53:40

what strong then and it is

53:42

mostly men interest they enough offer

53:45

a very clear solutions you know you want to know what

53:47

your problem is i'll tell you you want to know who's been

53:49

causing problems for you it's those elites

53:51

and of course a lot of the strong men come

53:53

from elites and cells but they managed somehow

53:55

to portray themselves as as defending the ordinary

53:58

person and speak out for ordinary people

54:00

and they're very good at finding enemy they have

54:02

a rally people around we thought enemies we we

54:04

need to deal with and so i think that

54:07

is very dangerous indeed

54:09

what i'd like to think is perhaps we'll

54:11

becoming a little bit a new order

54:13

to some of that because they haven't been terrible successful

54:15

when they're in government donald trump

54:18

claimed he was going to do a great deal for the forgot

54:20

people united states and did very

54:22

little indeed

54:23

in fact was was was very incompetent

54:25

president it and so i do think

54:28

that possibly some of this radical populism

54:31

will run its course because on the whole

54:33

the populace don't provide very good government

54:35

it's really fascinating we've been able to talk

54:37

about so much around this

54:40

political crisis grouping this country right

54:42

now margaret macmillan thank you very much

54:44

for joining us and

54:46

finally tonight bob dylan always

54:48

seem to have the right words in the right

54:50

soon right soon right moment and now

54:52

there is a record of of

54:54

note it is going to be auctioned off

54:57

the only copy of a newly recorded

54:59

version of blowing in the wind sixty

55:01

years after the original was released

55:03

this single is a collaboration with t

55:05

bone burnett and it seems is a live band

55:08

is expected to be

55:09

going going gone for over a million

55:11

dollars tomorrow

55:13

the song will not be made available

55:15

to the public so instead we need

55:17

you with the performance of the original

55:19

from nineteen sixty three and it is

55:21

the kind of bomb the back

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we need at this mobile

55:25

harper

55:28

and law

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how many see

55:37

her

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her lead

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the ever heard

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oh

55:59

a little

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