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This is American Decek. I'm your host, Dr.

0:51

Abdul Alsaya. Why

1:04

don't you imagine something with me? You're

1:06

a busy parent between work and shuttling

1:08

the kids to and from various activities and

1:10

the rush to get it all done before bedtime.

1:13

You decide to cook your family something nutritious

1:15

to fortify their growing bodies and minds.

1:17

You cut up some veggies, some lean meats, and

1:19

you turn on the stove to start cooking. But

1:21

alongside the vitamins and minerals, the fiber

1:23

and protein you're feeding your kids, you're also

1:25

giving them hefty dose of nitrogen

1:27

dioxide, carbon monoxide, and even

1:30

radon. You've got a gas stove

1:32

and you're not venting your kitchen. Chances

1:34

are, you're exposing yourself and your family to harmful

1:37

chemicals. Something you probably heard

1:39

about for the first time last week on the

1:41

Internet. Today, we're digging into

1:43

the science behind the risks of gastroenterology. And

1:45

we'll speak with a journalist who's been covering the gastroenterologist

1:48

before it was the gastroenterologist, TM.

1:51

So how did we give here? Why does everyone

1:53

suddenly care about stopes? Unless

1:55

we're not embarrassed to be made fun of by MSNBC,

1:58

oh, you're obsessed with gas stove. No. You're obsessed

2:00

with gas stove, buddy. You're obsessed with controlling

2:02

my life, and I'm not gonna let you. Come and take

2:04

it. How's that? America's right wing

2:06

controversy machine has been on fire.

2:09

See what I did there. Over the thought of Joe

2:11

Biden and his team of bureaucrats coming to

2:13

take their gas stopes. I've literally

2:15

never seen more passion over a kitchen appliance.

2:18

Okay. Maybe Curex. Remember when Republicans

2:20

canceled But stoves? No.

2:23

They all kinda do the same thing. Well, unless

2:25

you're talking about those new induction stoves, which are

2:27

pretty cool. They boil water in two minutes,

2:29

but somehow won't burn you when you touch the stovetop.

2:32

Magic. But gas stoves? Really?

2:35

With this controversy, It's just

2:37

something way more sinister in the culture.

2:39

And that's the war we seem to want to ignite

2:41

over the dumbest shit. The

2:44

only reason that right wing talking heads and politicians

2:46

are pissed off is because someone from the government

2:48

cited science to make a policy argument for

2:51

reducing their use. Which is, well, what

2:53

you kinda want your government to do, you know,

2:55

protect you from stuff that can hurt you without

2:57

you even knowing about it. Richard

2:59

Chunkett Junior, a commissioner at the Product

3:01

Safety Commission, called Gas Stovs a, quote,

3:03

hidden hazard and said, I quote,

3:05

any option is on the table. I doubt

3:07

he thought he'd end up being the subject of multiple

3:09

Fox News monologue because, well, he

3:11

was doing his job. His quote was based

3:14

on a study published last month in the

3:16

International Journal of Environmental Research and

3:18

Public Health that found that indoor gastro usage

3:20

was associated with childhood asthma and concluded

3:22

that up to thirteen percent percent

3:24

More than one in ten of childhood asthma

3:27

cases was attributable to them. In

3:29

fact, this is just the latest in a

3:31

line of studies that have demonstrated the health risks

3:33

of Gastovus. Makes sense.

3:36

And this is a rocket science, gas

3:38

stoves burn methane, and most burning

3:40

processes leave a series of chemicals in their

3:42

wake. Methane burning gas stoves

3:44

leave methane in the air, and when gas leaks from

3:47

the stoves, they can expose households to

3:49

direct benzene exposure. In twenty thirteen,

3:51

which by the way, is ten years ago now,

3:53

a whole decade. A meta analysis combined

3:55

the findings of forty one peer reviewed

3:57

research articles. And found that gas stoves

3:59

were associated with higher risk of asthma

4:01

and of children currently having OEs,

4:03

meaning worse asthma. Using

4:06

science to make policy is the centerpiece of public

4:08

health, which is why I can't help but connect this most

4:10

recent outburst to a recurring theme over the

4:12

past few years. The right wing attack

4:14

on any and all COVID policies. Which,

4:17

whether it's lockdowns or masks or vaccines.

4:20

And this recent gas stove's episode,

4:22

suggests that the right wing anti science and anti

4:24

public health maladies have penetrated

4:26

beyond COVID, even bizarre

4:28

kitchens. But where next?

4:30

All of this has some serious implications for

4:33

protecting the public's health. The whole

4:35

strain of American politics is animated by

4:37

specifically and directly opposing

4:39

using science to protect folks, where do we go

4:41

from here? The saddest part of all this

4:43

is that we're talking about children here,

4:45

children who suffer the consequences of our

4:47

inaction. The enraging thing

4:49

is the cynicism. You know these

4:51

folks know better. The biggest purveyors of

4:53

vaccine misinformation after all are

4:55

vaccinated themselves. You think any of these

4:57

Fox News phoneies would be willing to let their

4:59

kids spend an hour an unventilated room

5:01

with a gas stove burning? Probably not.

5:03

But how many kids are living in cramped apartments

5:06

with gas stove that burn every single

5:08

day? Today, we're gonna

5:10

cut deeper into the health implications of Gastaut's.

5:12

We're gonna talk more about the science behind

5:14

Commissioner Trump's recommendations, and

5:16

what a Gastaut free future could look like.

5:18

Joining me is a guest who's been thinking about Gastautos

5:21

for a long time. Rebecca Lieber is a climate

5:23

change reporter at Vox, where she's been

5:25

writing about what happens when cynical talking

5:27

heads turn basic public policy into

5:29

political rhetoric for a long time,

5:31

whether climate change, public health, or the

5:33

place where both of the meat, which today happens

5:35

to be at the

5:36

stovetop. Here's my conversation with

5:38

Rebecca Lieber. Alright.

5:40

Ready to go?

5:42

Yeah. Okay. Alright.

5:44

Can you introduce yourself for the time? Hi.

5:46

I'm Rebecca Lieber. I'm a senior reporter

5:49

at Fox, and I cover climate change.

5:51

Alright. So did you ever think that you'd be

5:53

writing about gas stopes? I've

5:56

been writing about it for a few years now,

5:58

but yeah, I I

6:00

can't say when I started on this. I

6:02

think that one day I'd be really

6:04

identified with gas

6:06

stove

6:06

reporting, but here we are. Because

6:08

you're like the gas stove person. And I

6:12

I wanted to just step back for a second

6:14

because I I don't know that everybody knows

6:16

what we're talking about when we talk about a gas

6:17

stove. What is a gas stove?

6:19

Yeah. So I

6:22

think

6:23

it's a great place to start because a

6:25

gas stove We're usually

6:27

talking about that coke top when you

6:29

turn it on, you have a

6:31

methane that's coming out also

6:34

called natural gas. And

6:36

that's that blue flame that

6:38

clicks on when you're using the stove.

6:41

But another thing we're talking about here

6:44

is Sometimes people who

6:46

have gastroes also have a gas oven.

6:48

I think that tends to be used interchangeably.

6:51

Some people have both

6:54

gas for their oven and stove. Other

6:56

people might have an electric oven and a

6:58

gas stove. So

7:00

just heads up that we'll be using

7:03

this a little bit interchangeably, but

7:05

happy to clarify. So

7:06

usually when we're talking about a gas stove, it's the it's the

7:09

blue flame stove. Right? It's the

7:11

classic blue flame stove with the with the wires

7:13

that you put your pot on and then you have the

7:15

blue flame coming up over the the

7:17

pot or the pan and then and then there's there's

7:19

ovens that also work via the same

7:21

flame. You just don't see the flame inside. Howard

7:23

Bauchner: Yeah, exactly. So

7:25

that blue flame is combusting fossil

7:28

fuels right there in your

7:29

kitchen.

7:30

And that that really is the principal issue,

7:32

isn't it? It's that you are burning a

7:34

fossil fuel in your kitchen. And

7:36

we sometimes assume that that

7:38

that these fuels burn clean,

7:41

but oftentimes they burn

7:43

all kinds of other things. And by

7:45

definition, when you're burning a carbon

7:48

based fossil fuel that that has its

7:50

own consequences. But really, we're talking about

7:52

sort of mid term issue. This

7:54

issue isn't just this goes up in

7:56

the atmosphere and contributes to climate

7:58

change. It's that this goes up into

8:00

your lungs and potentially

8:02

makes you sick? Yeah.

8:04

So the very named natural gas

8:06

kind of implies that this is some kind of

8:08

clean fuel that it's far

8:11

better than coal for instance

8:13

or some people still have wood

8:15

burning stopes. And in some

8:17

ways, natural gas is cleaner

8:20

if you're comparing one to one with

8:22

coal, at least as

8:24

far as carbon pollution goes, But

8:26

natural gas is primarily methane,

8:28

which is a very powerful greenhouse

8:30

gas. That definitely is contributing

8:32

to our climate crisis but

8:35

there's also all these other pollutants that

8:37

come along with it. When you're

8:39

burning that methane, you're also producing

8:41

nitrogen dioxide, which is

8:43

known to harm the lungs,

8:45

and it is linked to asthma. There's

8:47

lots of science that supports that.

8:49

And researchers are actually finding

8:52

lots of other concerning pollutants that come

8:54

with that gas stove. So

8:56

there are papers demonstrating

8:58

formaldehyde, benzene, carbon

9:01

monoxide, of course. And

9:04

radon all can be

9:06

detectable with that gas

9:08

stove there's lots of

9:10

debate over what levels of

9:12

concentrations we're talking about. That's truly

9:14

concerning, but the re

9:16

search we have the most information on

9:18

is around that nitrogen

9:19

dioxide, which has that clear link

9:22

to health effects. Can

9:23

you talk about what some of those health effects are

9:25

or the linkages that have been made in the literature?

9:29

Yeah, so I've interviewed

9:31

lots of scientists and doctors in

9:33

the space, and they

9:36

they say that there's a lot of

9:38

confidence here that that nitrogen

9:40

dioxide harms the

9:42

lungs, that it causes all kinds of

9:44

respiratory problems. And

9:46

there is a strong link

9:49

to asthma. And

9:51

children especially are vulnerable

9:53

here because in part, they're

9:55

just taking in more air compared

9:57

to adult lungs. And

9:59

that's why when we're talking about the Gastroev, a

10:01

lot of the focus here is on childhood

10:04

asthma because this is one of the most

10:06

vulnerable populations. Respiratory

10:09

illness is what we have the most information

10:11

on when it comes to nitrogen

10:13

dioxide, an area where there's a bit more

10:15

uncertainty, but there's

10:17

possible concern has to do

10:19

with cardiovascular system

10:22

and also the

10:24

brain. But basically,

10:26

we know that respiratory problems

10:29

do exist when you're breathing in high levels

10:31

of nitrogen dioxide and the

10:33

stuff just isn't good for you.

10:35

And, you know, the the thing about it, right, is

10:38

that you you think about, you know,

10:40

setting a pot to simmer for

10:42

a while, and you're now

10:45

in effect burning a fossil

10:47

fuel inside your own home. And

10:49

oftentimes, you know, you think about kitchens,

10:52

I remember we lived in New York, you had these like small

10:54

galley kitchens, which were pretty closed

10:56

off. And you can imagine

10:58

how quickly some of

11:00

these these noxious chemicals

11:03

can then diffuse into

11:05

the air that a kid is

11:07

breathing. And the thing about it is

11:09

that we add we

11:11

add chemicals to

11:13

natural gas so that we can

11:15

smell it. But a lot of what

11:17

is burnt off,

11:19

you you don't actually smell.

11:21

And part of the challenge here, right, is

11:23

that people assume that

11:25

in order for something that they're breathing

11:27

in to hurt them, they have to be

11:29

able to see smell and taste it. And

11:31

and that's just not the case. Particularly

11:34

if you're talking about a consistent chronic

11:37

exposure. And so

11:39

it's not

11:41

surprising that we're coming to understand

11:43

what the consequences of this are. And, you

11:45

know, stepping back, we've known for a long time

11:47

that one of the most important exposures

11:49

that folks in low and middle income

11:52

countries where they cook over, you know, a

11:54

kerosene stove or

11:56

cook over wood. Are

11:58

exposed to are the

12:00

runoffs from these kinds of stones. And I can think

12:02

about my own grandmother back in

12:04

Egypt cooking over this small bunsen

12:06

burner like Kerosene stove and she'd

12:08

get kerosene, you know, a canister of

12:10

kerosene, you'd have to buy it, it'd come every

12:12

week. And she worked in this

12:14

tiny little kitchen and I remember you could walk in

12:16

the kitchen and you the overwhelming smell was the food

12:18

she was cooking, but there was always this

12:20

sort of subtext smell,

12:22

which smelled by chemical. And at

12:24

the time nobody thought anything of it, but

12:26

stepping back, putting on my epidemiologist, hi, you're

12:28

like, yeah, that can't be good for

12:29

you. It turns out whether you can smell it or

12:31

you can't. Is probably not good

12:33

for you. Yeah. That's a great point that

12:35

we don't always sense these

12:37

pollutants. I think what

12:39

people probably think about when

12:41

they're you're considering the

12:43

smoky kitchen is particulate

12:45

matter, which can be produced

12:47

even when you're using electric

12:49

cooking. Particulate matter is just

12:52

byproduct basically of cooking

12:54

anything. And that's why

12:56

no matter what you're using, it's a good

12:58

idea to ventilate that kitchen. But

13:01

there's a lot of other things that we don't detect.

13:03

I think what people might be most

13:05

familiar with is carbon monoxide, which comes

13:07

from the stove. And fortunately,

13:09

today, there are a lot of people who have

13:12

lifesaving Dissected. But

13:15

what's interesting here

13:17

is there's lots that isn't detected.

13:19

There's actually can be lower

13:21

levels of carbon monoxide that

13:23

just doesn't hit a threshold where most

13:25

people's detectors

13:28

really monitor that. There's

13:30

also these other pollutants that

13:32

we just don't have sensors for

13:34

in most homes, just to

13:36

give you an example in my own apartment

13:39

where I unfortunately have a gas

13:41

stove. I did a little bit

13:43

of an experiment where I just turned on

13:45

the stove. I didn't actually cook

13:47

something but I wanted to see if my

13:49

air purifier actually sensed

13:51

what was coming out of that stove

13:53

and it did not change

13:55

its levels. There it turns

13:57

out that my air purifier

13:59

and boast aren't detecting things

14:02

like nitrogen dioxide what it might

14:04

be reacting to instead is that

14:06

particulate

14:06

matter. So, yeah, there's more

14:08

coming out of there than we realized. Mhmm.

14:11

So how many people in the United States? Like,

14:13

what proportion of people have a gas stove?

14:16

Yeah. Our latest numbers

14:18

from sort surveys say it's

14:20

about forty million Americans, which is

14:22

about thirty eight percent of the population.

14:25

So it's not everyone, but depending

14:27

on where you are in the country, you can have

14:29

really high concentrations of gas.

14:32

So some states where gas is most

14:34

common is New York and

14:36

California, I know very

14:38

popular in Massachusetts as

14:40

well. And then there

14:42

are parts of the country, like

14:44

the southeast, like Florida,

14:46

that are mostly electric

14:48

cooking. So they have over

14:50

ninety percent electric cooking rather

14:52

than gas So it can really

14:54

depend based on where you

14:55

live. We'll be back with more,

14:57

with Rebecca Lieber after this break.

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18:04

Why are we just having this conversation now?

18:06

So, like, what led to the we'll

18:08

just say, right wing uproar over

18:11

Gastaut's? Like, what has led to Gastaut's

18:14

discourse.

18:14

Yeah. To back up a little

18:17

bit, I'm actually working on a story right

18:19

now of looking at

18:22

the research over decades.

18:24

So it's not new science

18:26

that there are health risks associated

18:28

with any acid combustion. This

18:31

goes back decades where scientists have

18:33

understood there's some level of

18:35

risk associated with any type of

18:37

gas, including gas cooking.

18:40

But I think this hasn't really broken through to

18:42

the public until very recently,

18:44

and there's a few reasons why

18:47

this finally broke through on a national stage.

18:50

So based on

18:52

this piling research we've had, especially

18:54

in the last few years, looking at

18:56

these health risks from the stove and also

18:59

looking at the climate risk

19:01

from just methane

19:03

in general. More agencies have been

19:05

looking at this, so lots of states

19:07

are considering that science and

19:09

that kind of wave prompted

19:11

the Consumer Product Safety Commission to

19:14

say, we're going to look at the science

19:16

here and consider what

19:18

we should be doing around the gas stove and

19:21

if this warrants regulation. So

19:24

a commissioner for the

19:26

agency Richard Trumpka junior

19:28

gave a interview to

19:30

the outlet Bloomberg. And in

19:33

that interview, he said something

19:35

along the lines of any option is on the

19:37

table, including a ban. That

19:40

line is what prompted this

19:43

conservative outreach and

19:45

we instantly saw conservative

19:48

politicians equate this with

19:50

guns and this kind of imagery around

19:52

the NRA. Like, you can

19:54

pry this out of my cold dead

19:57

hands and

19:59

warning that Biden was gonna come into people's

20:01

homes and rip out that gas stove.

20:03

That was a complete overreaction. In

20:06

fact, the consumer product

20:08

safety commission quickly walked back those

20:10

comments. They have said no ban is on

20:12

the table. The Biden administration

20:14

has also made that very clear.

20:16

That doesn't mean this conversation's

20:19

over. Agencies are still

20:21

looking at this issue, and I think there's a

20:23

lot of debate, especially at the state

20:25

level of what can be

20:26

done, but that instantly

20:28

sparked this culture war.

20:31

Mean, I'm just imagine Joe Biden specifically, like,

20:33

riding in a corvette and his aviators with,

20:35

like, an ice cream cone in his hands coming

20:37

for your gas stove. Like,

20:40

he doesn't strike me as a kind of man who can single handedly

20:42

carry a gas stove out of a home, but

20:44

I could be wrong. And on

20:46

top of that, it's like an awfully weird

20:49

thing to get excited about.

20:51

Like, I understand, in

20:53

some respects, people

20:55

who because of a ecosystem

20:58

that constantly feeds you things that

21:00

are meant to scare you, feeling

21:02

like you need a firearm to protect yourself.

21:04

Like, I I think that's kinda crazy.

21:07

And I believe that

21:10

the underregulation of firearms is folks

21:12

who listen, no, is a big reason why

21:14

we have so much

21:16

both murder and suicide at the end of

21:18

a gun. But I can I can

21:20

imagine why folks would

21:22

get would get up in arms

21:24

to, you know, use a badly

21:26

placed pawn over over protecting

21:28

their their

21:29

guns? But a stove, like, part of me

21:32

is just like, hey, like,

21:33

you know, there are other kinds of stoves and

21:35

I don't I don't understand why

21:37

the passion about about a particular kind

21:39

of stove. What does this

21:41

tell you about the real

21:44

angst or anxiety that's underneath

21:45

this? Like, what what do you think is driving

21:48

this? Yeah. I think there's a lot more happening here than

21:50

the stove itself. There's, of course, this

21:52

backlash to any kind of regulation.

21:55

From the government, but I'd like to argue

21:57

there's also something else going on here

21:59

and that's this ongoing

22:02

battle of for what we do about

22:04

fossil fuels and climate change.

22:06

The core of this fight has actually

22:08

been about electrifying our buildings

22:11

where climate activists, especially in

22:13

cities starting in California,

22:16

have advocated for policies where

22:19

cities say no

22:21

gas in new construction. We're going to

22:23

transition to electricity only.

22:26

The gas industry has responded really

22:28

aggressively to that effort because

22:30

this threatens their future

22:32

profits. They need those

22:34

customers to make money for the

22:36

foreseeable future. We know

22:39

that the Republican Party

22:41

has a very strong

22:44

allied ship with the fossil fuel

22:46

industry and that the gas

22:48

industry itself is afraid of

22:50

seeing these climate efforts take

22:52

off. So I think some of the reaction

22:54

gets a little bit deeper than just

22:56

a instinctive culture

22:59

freak out here and gets that

23:01

that ally ship that Republicans

23:03

are, especially Republican,

23:05

political leaders, are trying to

23:07

defend the gas

23:09

industry. There's a couple of pieces I wanna

23:11

dig into here. The first

23:13

is is on, you know, the the way

23:16

that some some of this outrage can

23:18

often be astroturfed. Right? And

23:21

for folks who don't know what that means, it means very large

23:23

interests, in effect, laundering

23:25

their interests through what

23:28

looks like organic outrage over something,

23:30

but really is a concerted PR

23:32

effort. Is there any evidence

23:34

that there's been some astroturfing on the

23:36

part of industry around this particular

23:37

conversation? Howard

23:38

Bauchner: Definitely, I've reported on

23:40

a lot of these efforts

23:43

To give a couple examples, I

23:46

would look at California, which

23:48

has been ahead of the curve on

23:51

trying to electrifies buildings and

23:54

inching towards possible regulation

23:56

around gas appliances for your

23:58

health reasons. And the gas

24:00

industry there, gas

24:02

utilities being really huge in

24:04

California has fought back very

24:06

aggressively. So in a

24:09

story I reported from mother

24:11

Jones a couple years ago, I

24:12

looked at some of those

24:15

efforts and one

24:18

example was the a

24:20

PR group that was hired

24:22

by the gas industry had

24:24

posed as concerned neighbors

24:26

on Nextdoor posting on

24:29

that social media platform where you're

24:31

only supposed to post if you

24:33

actually live in that neighborhood, how

24:36

council how the

24:38

area council was considering banning

24:41

Gastrovs. And trying to

24:43

generate some opposition from

24:45

community members. It turns out

24:47

that was a

24:49

hired PR person posing as a concerned community

24:52

member. That's just one

24:54

example. Other ways that we've seen

24:56

this kind of ash choser

24:58

from the industry include there's

25:00

been these social media

25:02

campaigns where the

25:04

gas industry has hired not

25:07

super famous but kind of mid level

25:09

social media influencers to pose

25:11

with Gastaut's and talk about how great

25:13

they're, quote, natural gas Stovis.

25:15

You can actually find some of these

25:17

today still if you search on the hashtag

25:20

cooking with gas on Instagram.

25:22

This was a paid campaign and some

25:25

of these images are just kind of

25:27

funny to see. So

25:31

There's different levels of this bite.

25:33

There's also been

25:35

examples of gas industry

25:38

lawyers and rep showing up to

25:40

community hearings to fight any kind of

25:42

local ban. There's lots

25:44

of examples, not just in

25:47

California, Oregon seeing this now, New

25:49

York as in some backlash. And

25:51

I think we're just at

25:53

this this turning point here where

25:55

we're seeing this fight nationalize.

25:58

So I think there's more of this coming.

26:00

This is just what we've seen at the

26:02

state Leber. And Who

26:04

knows what the Consumer Product Safety

26:06

Commission has in store

26:07

now? You

26:08

know, a lot of these after served

26:11

campaigns only really work if

26:13

there is a community of

26:15

people primed to

26:17

listen to the central message.

26:20

Right? And it follows to me

26:22

that one of the other subtexts

26:24

here beyond the interests of

26:26

the fossil fuel industry to protect

26:29

their profits is also an

26:32

ongoing pushback on the

26:34

very notion of regulation

26:36

in favor of public health.

26:38

And a lot of what you're hearing, a

26:40

lot of the conversation, a lot of the tone of

26:42

the tenor, strikes me

26:44

as very, very aligned with

26:46

what we heard about masks,

26:49

and lockdowns and COVID vaccines,

26:51

how much do you think the

26:53

general ethos of

26:57

those antivaxor slash anti, you

26:59

know, COVID interruption, talking

27:02

heads. How much do you

27:04

think that that's bleeding into this

27:06

conversation here and has sort of picked up in

27:08

the same

27:08

vein. Howard Bauchner:

27:09

Yeah, I think it's really hard to

27:12

distinguish actually take

27:15

governor DeSantis in Florida. I think

27:17

he just embodies all of

27:19

this because he has been on

27:21

the leading front of fighting any kind

27:23

of mask mandates and

27:26

government policies to

27:28

encourage vaccination. He

27:30

also very quickly picked

27:32

up the Gastove battle when

27:35

this broke out a few weeks

27:37

ago. He he

27:39

said something to the

27:42

effect of I'll

27:44

protect the gas stove. Like, how dare

27:46

you buy an administration? I'm,

27:48

of course, a paraphrasing here, but I like to point

27:50

out that when you look at Florida

27:52

specifically, over ninety two

27:54

percent of the population has electric

27:56

cooking and just eight percent gas.

28:00

So I'm not really sure what he's

28:02

talking about when he says this

28:04

is him fighting for

28:06

Florida's interests. I

28:08

think specifically looking

28:10

at DeSantis' motives,

28:12

he is, of course, preparing

28:14

to run for president

28:16

in the next next election cycle, and he

28:18

has been using or building this

28:20

kind of talking point about government

28:24

encroachment on Leber. And

28:27

this has come through in other ways where

28:29

he has fought back against

28:31

climate action in this

28:35

whole other very complicated battle

28:37

over ESG investing

28:39

in the financial world. And

28:42

he I do see

28:45

conservatives trying to connect this

28:47

narrative that

28:49

under this idea that

28:52

the government should not be involved in

28:54

our everyday decisions, in

28:56

our homes. This is something like

28:58

you can say, get out of the home,

29:00

you have no place here, But

29:02

when you look at the flip side, what

29:05

doctors have been trying to make clear

29:07

for a long time now is

29:10

The public also deserves to

29:12

know what the risks are and to

29:14

know the dangers of the product that they

29:16

may be buying or they

29:18

may have no choice to

29:20

even use if they rent. So

29:22

a lot of this is

29:24

also about science communication

29:27

and awareness and I think we see

29:29

this kind of silencing of

29:31

of the truth here and silencing

29:33

of science

29:35

in favor of misinformation. And

29:38

yeah, it's murky, but I

29:40

agree that all of this is connected.

29:43

You talked about DeSantis in Florida. I

29:45

lived in Florida for a while when I was a little

29:47

kid. And I lived there

29:50

when Hurricane Andrew one

29:52

of the first big mega hurricanes

29:54

swept through, and I was probably I was eight

29:56

at the time. And

29:59

the funny thing about it as I remember the poster I was

30:01

just old enough as my parents

30:03

were trying to rebuild our house and they were thinking

30:05

about getting a gas stove. This was

30:08

the early nineties And

30:10

I remember very specifically,

30:13

then the the the salespeople

30:15

saying, you know, gas don't work very well. In

30:17

South Miami because it's so humid and

30:19

the gas stoves are a lot better when it's not so

30:21

humid outside. It just interferes with the

30:23

lighting function of the of the stove.

30:26

And so it's funny to to watch somebody like

30:28

DeSantis just completely

30:31

by this sort of

30:33

national script about standing up

30:35

for gas stoves in a state where gas stoves don't

30:37

even work very well. The

30:40

other part of this that, you

30:42

know, we can't ignore is

30:44

the conversation about bands, which is

30:46

really interesting. Right? The

30:49

conversation that sparked all this, Richard

30:52

Trump Junior's quote

30:54

to Bloomberg, was

30:56

that he said the word ban.

30:58

Now you could imagine, right, a restatement

31:00

of what public policy actually

31:02

is, which is we're gonna subsidize

31:04

the purchase of electric stoves.

31:06

Because the government already does that in the form of the

31:09

inflation reduction act. Can you talk a little bit

31:11

about that and about the

31:14

what that sort of tells us about the the kind

31:16

of language tends to inflate these

31:17

conversations. Howard Bauchner: Yeah,

31:19

I do think the language around a

31:21

ban really aggravated the

31:24

reaction and just

31:26

looking at the possibilities

31:29

here, a ban, first of all, is off

31:31

the table now, but it was

31:33

Leber, like, to begin with. There are other regulatory

31:36

measures that even an agency

31:38

like the Consumer Product Safety

31:40

Commission can do here And that

31:42

includes even issuing warnings when people

31:44

buy a gas appliance or requiring

31:46

that people also get something like

31:48

a range hood with that

31:50

gas stove to improve ventilation. There's

31:53

plenty of other things that can be

31:55

done here that isn't a outright

31:57

ban. When it comes to incentives,

31:59

yeah, I this is a huge

32:02

area. When you look at what the Biden

32:04

administration actually wants to do

32:06

here, they want to

32:08

push voluntary incentives for people

32:10

who would like to electrify their

32:13

home rather than force

32:15

them to. So the Inflationary

32:17

Reduction Act has

32:19

various incentives. Basically,

32:22

there's two buckets. There's tax credits

32:24

and rebates. That

32:26

will go to consumers

32:28

to help electrify their home.

32:31

Some of these can apply to

32:33

buying something like an induction stove

32:35

but also there's other kinds of electrical

32:37

work you might have to do if you're trying to

32:40

upgrade like having

32:43

a modern circuit breaker or

32:45

electrical panel, that can

32:47

be costly too. So just

32:49

the Inflation Reduction Act actually has

32:51

tax credits that lower that cost of doing

32:53

any kind of work in your home.

32:55

There's also going to be rebates

32:58

available later this

33:00

year that lower the

33:02

upfront costs of these appliances. A

33:04

lot of this is going to target

33:06

lower to middle income consumers. So

33:08

you kind of have to read into

33:10

the fine print to see if you

33:13

still qualify but we're going to start

33:15

seeing states rolling out these

33:17

rebates where something

33:19

like induction technology is going to get a

33:21

lot cheap because the government

33:23

effectively is helping boost

33:25

this, and that's

33:27

a big idea here around

33:30

encouraging electrification of

33:32

homes rather than forcing

33:34

people into the situation that you bring

33:36

down the cost and then the

33:38

market will

33:39

follow. Yeah. You know, you know, it's funny is that. I

33:41

think for the first time because

33:43

of the right wing backlash,

33:46

You have a lot of people who are paying attention

33:48

to the potential health consequences of

33:50

their gas stove and thinking

33:53

about thinking about fixing that.

33:55

Right? I have two

33:57

small children and we have

33:59

a gas stove and I

34:01

have never spent more time researching

34:03

an appliance than I have thinking

34:05

about an induction oven. And they're pretty cool. Like, they can

34:07

boil water in two minutes and

34:09

you turn your entire stove into a cooking surface

34:12

and, you know, III would

34:14

not have been thinking as much about this. If it

34:16

wasn't top of mind, of

34:18

right wing backlash in support of

34:20

an appliance. So I wanna ask you, do

34:22

you think that this might have actually

34:24

backfired that there are gonna be more people who are looking

34:26

at

34:27

making the change? Because they're newly hearing about this, because

34:29

of all the uproar? I think it's

34:31

so early to say exactly how this

34:33

is going to play out.

34:35

I do think a lot of people have become

34:38

aware just in recent weeks that

34:40

there is any problem

34:42

associated with

34:44

the gastro Honestly, I've heard as feedback to my reporting

34:46

from some people who didn't

34:48

even connect that they were

34:50

burning a fossil fuel when

34:52

they used the stove. So I just think some things here

34:54

are clicking for people that didn't.

34:56

And I looking

34:58

at polling, but also

35:00

believe that most people,

35:02

most Americans, actually, they

35:04

accept the climate science.

35:06

They do want to do

35:08

something about it. So

35:10

I think more education on what is actually contributing here

35:12

does go a long way

35:14

in affecting consumer decisions,

35:16

but also community

35:18

decisions and advocating for

35:20

electrification in your hometown.

35:22

There's also this other way

35:24

everything can play out, so it's

35:27

just hard to predict where the right

35:30

wing by embracing the gas stove

35:32

also runs to purchase

35:34

it. And that's also there's

35:36

a possibility there that some

35:38

now see the gas stove

35:40

like the second amendment where they have

35:42

to run out before it's banned. The

35:46

one reason I I have a bit

35:48

of hope that that's not going to be what

35:50

happens here is we're

35:52

talking about something

35:54

that requires infrastructure to support, to have a

35:56

gas stove, you need a gas

35:58

pipeline into your home,

36:00

and that also

36:02

requires lots of government

36:04

investment. So a lot of

36:06

this is going to depend

36:08

on what cities and states end up investing in

36:10

for the next five

36:12

to ten years. And if they are choosing

36:15

this direction of doubling down

36:18

on gas as opposed to

36:20

cheaper clean energy. And

36:22

that's kind of where the story

36:25

isn't written yet. I don't know

36:27

what will happen here, but the

36:29

hopeful piece of this is

36:32

gas as

36:34

As far as cooking goes, is much more common in a

36:36

lot of blue states, and those are the states

36:38

already looking at this transition.

36:42

You know, here's where the rubber hits the road.

36:44

Some of some of these folks just

36:46

just to own the lips are

36:49

gonna go buy a gas stove. I'm almost certain that there are folks

36:51

who are already doing this. But I would challenge any of

36:54

them to, like, huff what's being burnt

36:56

out of the

36:56

stove. I don't think any of them would

37:00

do it. And the fact is

37:02

is that that

37:02

itself is an admission of their at

37:06

least conventional

37:08

recognition that burning stuff and breathing

37:10

what you burn is probably not a great idea.

37:12

And so it's, you know, it's it's

37:14

it's funny because it's like, you

37:17

want to reject the science so much, and some point, at some point,

37:19

you know, it's probably true. Right? And

37:21

so, you know,

37:24

III doubt any of these folks listen to this podcast. But,

37:26

you know, I just it's one of those moments

37:28

you're like, okay. Cool. Turn it on. And

37:32

then just sit there and breathe it. And and don't turn on the the

37:34

the hood, just breathe it. Would you

37:36

do that or would you ask your kid to do that?

37:39

And I think where most of them would be, like, absolutely not. And you're like,

37:41

okay. Exactly. Then you're admitting the the fundamental point.

37:43

This has just become a substrate of the

37:45

culture war for you. Which

37:47

just goes to show how

37:50

absurd I feel like the Internet has made

37:52

our conversation about public health, which is

37:54

like people would would do things

37:56

that they know in their

37:58

heart to be probably

38:00

incorrect simply because it's

38:03

an opposition to some sense of the other tribe. Right? And

38:05

it's a sad comment on where we've gotten, and I hate

38:07

to say it, like, you know folks on quote our

38:09

side, I

38:12

think have

38:13

have taken the incentives of the Cultural

38:16

War to their logical

38:18

ends as well. Right? Which is to say,

38:21

you know, this is this has gone past

38:23

trying to do things to benefit

38:26

the well-being of folks even if they

38:28

disagree with you. Right? And

38:30

so that's the hard part to see, right, is is that in the end

38:32

we wanna get back to or

38:34

hopefully move forward to a place

38:36

where people are using

38:38

the best tool we have

38:40

available to understand the physical world around

38:42

us, which is science, to make good

38:44

decisions for themselves, for their

38:46

families, for their communities, and

38:48

for the earth. And I

38:50

really hope that we all kinda keep

38:52

our mind

38:52

there. For those of us who wanna

38:55

protect ourselves from the consequences of having a gas

38:57

stove

38:57

in our apartment or our home What

38:59

are some of the things we can do to

39:01

limit its consequences?

39:02

Howard Bauchner: Yeah, it's a great

39:04

question. I will say I have

39:06

the gas stuff and often that I'm not super happy

39:08

with. So this is something I think about a lot. Basically,

39:12

the only thing we can do

39:16

to help reduce that exposure

39:18

to nitrogen dioxide is

39:20

by boosting ventilation in

39:23

your space. So the best

39:26

thing is if you

39:28

have a range hood,

39:30

this is a specific

39:32

type that is ducted and then vents that air

39:34

outside. That

39:36

if you have it, use it.

39:38

Turn it on, not everyone uses it.

39:42

is probably the best

39:44

thing in terms of making sure

39:46

that you are not

39:48

just inhaling

39:49

this high concentration of these

39:51

pollutants. The problem is a lot of people

39:54

don't have this technology

39:56

or maybe it's very old

39:58

and inefficient. I actually don't have any fan at all in

40:00

my apartment. And in that

40:02

case, if you can open a

40:04

window, door

40:06

if you have a fan at all, even

40:08

if it circulates that polluted air

40:10

indoors, that's not ideal, but

40:14

you can do anything to improve that airflow.

40:16

It can help somewhat.

40:18

Another recommendation I've heard

40:20

from doctors is if someone

40:23

in your home is vulnerable to these pollutants.

40:25

Let's say they already have asthma or

40:27

they're a small child.

40:30

Just trying to keep them

40:32

out of that space while cooking

40:35

can

40:35

help. There are

40:37

definitely things we can do to

40:39

reduce those risks and

40:41

improving ventilation. There is

40:44

a lot of uncertainty

40:46

here, though, in terms of how much something like opening a

40:48

window really does or if it

40:50

reduces those concentrations

40:52

right away,

40:54

And that's an area that scientists are

40:56

still working out. What are the

40:59

best interventions we can take? That

41:02

actually help people with

41:05

these exposures. So

41:07

that's something that I I'm

41:09

following in my reporting, I think it's a

41:11

really interesting area. It's kind of where

41:13

that science research

41:16

and people's lives can really intersect of how we

41:18

help people. Obviously, a

41:21

thing to do if you

41:23

are able to is also

41:26

look at electrification options. If you don't have to

41:28

deal with this at all and get that gas out

41:30

of your

41:31

home, that's probably the best

41:33

thing to do here. I'll

41:36

add just one more kind of renter friendly option

41:39

here

41:39

because a lot of people when they have gas,

41:42

they're kind of stuck with

41:44

it. They don't really have a choice in the

41:46

matter. A lot of

41:48

people have been raving

41:50

about these plug in induction stovetop. So instead of

41:52

having a huge renovation of your

41:54

kitchen, you can actually buy it's kind

41:56

of like

41:58

this hot plate and they come in different sizes where you could just

42:00

set it over your stove and they're

42:02

not even that expensive and then you

42:05

just plug it in your outlet and there you have an

42:07

electric stove even

42:10

at the time that you're stuck with gas.

42:12

So I always like to

42:14

mention that because I do think there's some

42:16

solutions here at different income

42:18

levels and different kind of preparedness

42:20

of of whether you can actually do this full construction

42:23

on your place. So,

42:26

yeah, I I do like to

42:28

leave people with a little bit of hope

42:30

and realizing that they

42:32

have some options to

42:35

at least indoor air quality. Lorraine Becca,

42:37

we really appreciate your reporting and

42:39

you joining us to tell

42:42

us a bit about both Gastoves

42:44

in their arms and then also the

42:46

Gastove discourse. Our guest

42:48

today was Rebecca Lieber.

42:51

She is a climate change

42:53

reporter at vox Rebecca. Thank you so much.

42:55

Thanks for covering this.

43:01

As usual, here's

43:05

what I'm watching

43:08

right now. A record sixteen point three million Americans signed up for individual

43:10

coverage through the marketplaces established the

43:12

Affordable Care Act in twenty twenty two.

43:16

That's a thirteen percent increase over the year before,

43:18

which up until that point had been the

43:20

high watermark. This follows the Inflation reduction

43:22

act last year, which extended subsidies

43:25

intended to reduce health care costs for lower and middle income folks

43:27

through the pandemic. The pickups were particularly

43:30

pronounced in Texas, Florida,

43:32

and Georgia. What do those states have

43:34

in common? Well, alongside being states

43:36

with some of the most annoying governors in the

43:38

country, there are also states where those

43:40

governors have continued to block

43:42

Medicaid expansion, meaning there are more people who absolutely rely on the ACA

43:44

marketplaces to get care. This, of

43:46

course, is good news. But y'all, I

43:48

can't help but you

43:50

reminded, though. That this is the only

43:52

high income country in the entire world where people still aren't guaranteed a basic

43:54

minimum level of healthcare. Medicare for

43:58

all anyone? A George

44:00

W. Bush appointed Federal District Court judge

44:02

blocked the California law intending to

44:04

reduce miss and disinformation about COVID

44:06

and its vaccines and treatments. Here's what the law

44:08

did. It expanded the State Medical Board's

44:10

authority to extend spreading COVID

44:12

disinformation as unprofessional conduct

44:14

by physicians. With the goal of reducing the spread

44:16

of this harmful information. The judge ruled though

44:18

that the law violated the fourteenth amendments, do

44:21

process clause and called it,

44:23

quote, unconstitutional illegal. On one hand, I

44:25

agree with the thrust of the law critical to address the spread of

44:28

misinformation, full stop. I just wonder whether

44:30

or not this is really the most effective way to do

44:32

it. After

44:34

all, we really think that doctors are the ones spreading the bulk of missing this

44:36

information? No doubt, there are some rotten apples

44:38

in the bunch. But when they do spread this

44:40

information, where do you think they hear about

44:44

it? This is California after all, you know, where

44:46

Twitter, Google, and Meta are headquartered. And

44:48

I would have loved to see California

44:50

force these

44:52

exact platforms to take more accountability for the materials shared on their

44:54

platforms. That would do way more to

44:56

reduce the spread of this disinformation than

44:58

policing doctors.

45:01

But of course, they didn't. And that probably has a

45:03

lot to do with the power of these corporations

45:05

to lobby state government. Finally, four

45:07

years ago, congress legalized hemp,

45:09

the source of cannabidiol, better known as CBD.

45:11

It unleashed a whole new market of gummies and lotions and

45:13

potions and sprays. An issue here is

45:15

the fantastical claims the product marketers have

45:17

made for their

45:20

That it can ease menstrual cramps, prevent diabetes, improve post workout

45:22

recovery, solve chronic pain, or headaches,

45:24

etcetera. And the issue is that

45:26

there's just not the evidence to back these

45:29

claims up. Fact, there's very little evidence

45:31

settle, but what evidence we are seeing has

45:33

some worrying trends that extended

45:35

chronic CBD use may lead to

45:37

liver toxicity or mill reproductive dysfunction. Yeah, you heard

45:39

that one right. Right now, the FDA can take

45:42

action against companies that are making specific

45:44

unfounded health claims for

45:46

their products. But according to a

45:48

statement from doctor Janet Woodcock, the FDA's

45:50

principal deputy commissioner, the agency

45:52

simply locks the necessary

45:54

regulatory tools to protect consumers

45:56

from safety concerns or fantastical

45:58

advertising. CBD is a

46:00

six billion dollar business. And don't get

46:02

me wrong. I don't have anything against it. I just want there to be some evidence when

46:04

people tell you it's gonna do this or that thing.

46:06

But you can imagine what the growers, producers, and

46:08

marketers think.

46:10

Watch the space and easy on the CBD for now.

46:12

That's it for today. On your way out, don't forget

46:14

to rate and review. It does go a long way.

46:17

Also, if you love the show and wanna wrap us, I hope you'll

46:19

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46:21

American deceptin merch. America's

46:28

sector is a product of crooked media. Our

46:30

producer is Austin Fisher. Our associate producers

46:32

are Teratrupstra and

46:34

Amelik Frank. Basili's photoplast mixes and masters the show. Production

46:36

support from Ari Schwartz in an s manta. Our

46:38

theme song is by Takahashi'sawa

46:40

and Alotugira. Our executive

46:42

producers, Anil Doran, Sarah Geismar, Sandy

46:44

Gerard, Michael Martinez, and me,

46:46

Dr. Abdul, I'll say it. Your host. Thanks

46:48

for listening. This

46:56

show is for general information and entertainment purposes only. It's not intended

46:58

to provide specific healthcare or medical advice and should

47:00

not be construed as providing healthcare or

47:04

medical advice. Please consult your physician with any questions related to your own health. The

47:06

views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the host

47:08

and his guests, do not necessarily

47:10

represent the view in opinion of Wayne County,

47:12

Michigan or its Department of Health Human and

47:14

Veterans Services.