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You're listening to American Criminal. New

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episodes are released every Thursday, but

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go to intohistory.com. This

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episode contains descriptions and details

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that some listeners might find

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disturbing. Listener discretion is advised.

0:18

It's just

0:20

after midnight on August

0:23

21, 1989, when the

0:25

patrol car pulls up to the Beverly Hills

0:36

Police Department. The cop

0:38

in the front seat gets out and

0:40

opens the back door so that Lyle

0:43

and Eric Menendez can follow him inside.

0:45

They're not under arrest, so there's

0:47

no cuffs, no firm grip on

0:50

their arms leading them into the

0:52

station. Still, the brothers

0:54

are nervous. After

0:56

all, they've just killed their parents.

0:59

The bright lights inside don't calm

1:02

the brothers down, and

1:04

with the bloody crime scene just a

1:06

couple of miles away, the station is

1:09

buzzing with activity. Officers

1:11

and detectives have been called out of

1:13

bed to help with the investigation. Murder

1:16

in Beverly Hills is unusual.

1:18

A double homicide seems unthinkable

1:20

to the bleary odd cops

1:22

working the phones. As

1:24

the Menendez brothers are guided past

1:26

the front desk towards a narrow

1:28

corridor, Lyle catches sight of the

1:31

steel bars of a holding cell. It's

1:34

empty right now, but he knows that

1:36

if he's not careful, it'll have two

1:38

new residents before the night's over. He

1:41

shakes the thought off, though. He

1:43

can't think like that. Not if he

1:45

and Eric are going to survive this

1:47

first test. Eric

1:50

goes into the interview room first.

1:53

He's more emotional than Lyle and asks

1:55

if his older brother can come with them.

1:58

He doesn't want to be alone, but the The detective

2:00

tells Eric, no, he doesn't get

2:02

company. But for all

2:05

Eric's nerves, the interview is fairly

2:07

simple to navigate. The

2:09

questions are all about what happened earlier that

2:11

night, and he just sticks to the story

2:13

he and Lyle came up with. They

2:16

went to see a movie and got home after 11. They

2:20

smelled smoke as soon as they walked in the

2:22

front door. When they

2:24

went into the living room and saw

2:26

their parents, Eric explained he started screaming

2:28

and Lyle called the police. There

2:31

are some more specifics the detective wanted

2:33

to know about. With

2:35

the front door unlocked, out of the

2:37

gates open, does Eric have any idea

2:40

about who might have murdered his parents?

2:43

At that point, Eric starts crying

2:45

and asks if Jose and Kitty

2:48

Menendez are really dead. The

2:51

detective stops asking questions soon after

2:53

that and leads Eric back out

2:55

into the hallway where Lyle's waiting

2:57

anxiously. Eric hugs

3:00

his older brother, wiping his tears

3:02

onto Lyle's t-shirt. Then,

3:04

quietly enough that no one

3:06

else hears, he whispers that it's

3:09

okay. It's safe for Lyle to

3:11

speak with the detective. Lyle

3:14

doesn't strictly need the encouragement, but it's

3:16

nice to have as he walks into

3:18

the interview room. When

3:20

the tape recorder starts, Lyle tells

3:23

the same story as his brother,

3:25

the movie, the smoke, the screaming.

3:28

Then, he repeats some of the

3:30

suspicions he voiced earlier outside their

3:32

house about his father's work, the

3:34

shady people he sometimes dealt with.

3:37

As he talks, Lyle starts to hint

3:40

that things in the Menendez family aren't

3:42

quite as perfect as they might have

3:44

seen on the outside. He

3:47

shares a little too much, letting slip

3:49

that his father calls all the shots

3:51

at home, that he's very firm with

3:53

his sons, and that he mistreats his

3:55

wife. In the moment,

3:57

these comments are easy for the detective. to

4:00

ignore, just hints at everyday

4:02

family drama and nothing more.

4:05

If the investigators were paying closer

4:08

attention, they might have recognized that

4:10

they had the killers sitting in

4:12

the station all along. But

4:15

the moment passes, the interview ends, and

4:18

the brothers are told they're free to

4:20

go. And so Lyle

4:22

and Eric walk out of the Beverly

4:24

Hills Police Department before the sun is

4:26

risen, ready to start life

4:29

in a world without Jose and

4:31

Kitty Menendez. As they

4:33

walk down the steps of the building towards the

4:35

parking lot, Eric turns

4:37

to his brother in a daze

4:39

to ask a simple, enormous question.

4:42

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criminal. It

7:04

was a bizarre personal drama of a

7:06

therapist and his lover that brought the

7:08

Menendez brothers undone in March of 1990.

7:12

When Judalon Smith went to the

7:14

police to report her boyfriend, Dr.

7:16

Jerry Oziel for assaulting her and

7:19

keeping her prisoner in his home.

7:21

Her story didn't seem to interest

7:23

the authorities much at first, but

7:26

when she mentioned that Oziel's

7:28

clients, Lyle and Eric Menendez

7:30

confessed to him that they

7:32

murdered their parents six months

7:34

earlier, everything changed. Within

7:37

days, both brothers were in custody

7:39

and their arrests have made headlines

7:41

around the country. But

7:43

while the prosecutors were the first

7:45

to get their version of events

7:47

into the papers, the trial of

7:50

the Menendez brothers eventually revealed a

7:52

more complicated tale about what happened

7:54

inside the mansion on North Elm

7:56

drive. And depending on

7:58

whether or not you believe. the brothers,

8:00

the real story was more shocking

8:03

than two spoiled brats killing their

8:05

parents for millions. During

8:08

the televised trial, the tale of

8:10

the Menendez family sparked a nationwide

8:12

debate over the nature of abuse

8:15

and whether it could excuse murder.

8:18

Even as dozens of people

8:20

lined up to corroborate Lionel

8:22

and Eric's stories, armchair experts

8:24

and zealous prosecutors insisted on

8:26

painting with black and white,

8:28

ignoring the shades of gray

8:30

that filled out the picture.

8:33

Through it all, Lionel and Eric

8:35

sat by as people fought over

8:37

their actions. To hear

8:40

the brothers tell it, they had

8:42

exactly one moment of independence and

8:44

autonomy in their young lives, and

8:46

they've been paying for it ever

8:48

since. This

8:51

is episode four in our four-part

8:53

series on the Menendez brothers. They

8:56

had it coming. It's

9:02

the afternoon of Monday, March 12th,

9:04

1990, more than six

9:07

months after the Menendez murders. In

9:10

a wood panel courtroom in Beverly

9:12

Hills, armed guards lead Lionel and

9:14

Eric Menendez to their seats. The

9:17

brothers each cut a sleek figure,

9:19

dressed in dark suits with slim

9:21

ties. Lionel has

9:23

a round face and a plume of

9:26

dark hair, mostly the toupee his father

9:28

forced him to start wearing as a

9:30

teenager. Beside him, Eric's

9:32

got dark curls and high

9:34

cheekbones. He looks more serious

9:37

than his older brother, but they both crack

9:39

a couple of smiles as they speak with

9:41

their attorneys. The seats

9:43

in the courtroom are filled by journalists,

9:45

except for a few family members there

9:47

to show support for the brothers. It's

9:50

the first time Lionel and Eric have

9:52

been seen in public since their arrest,

9:54

and the media is desperate for shots

9:57

of them. In the months

9:59

following the murder of Jose and Kitty

10:01

Menendez, public interest in the case

10:03

waned. The investigation fizzled out

10:05

and no one ever seemed to guess

10:07

that the couple's sons might be the

10:09

killers. Now, however, everyone's

10:12

eyes are once again focused on

10:14

the family tragedy. The

10:16

media's fan the flames with reporters

10:19

and pundits eager to give their

10:21

take on the Menendez family. After

10:24

a moment, the judge enters the courtroom

10:27

and gets right to business. She

10:29

announces the case, the people of

10:32

the state of California versus Eric

10:34

Galen Menendez and Joseph Lyle Menendez.

10:37

One at a time, the judge

10:39

addresses the brothers, reading the charges

10:41

against them, the murders of Jose

10:44

and Kitty Menendez for financial gain

10:46

while lying in wait with a

10:48

firearm. When the judge

10:50

reads out their father's name, she

10:53

stumbles over it pronouncing it Jose.

10:56

Seconds later, she announces that the

10:58

charges come from a

11:00

special circumstances, which means Lyle and Eric

11:02

could each be sentenced to death. In

11:05

all the proceedings last about 10 minutes.

11:08

Then the brothers are whisked out of

11:10

the courtroom again. It's

11:12

their first time appearing before a judge over

11:14

the murders, but it won't be the last.

11:19

Two weeks later, they're back in the

11:22

same courtroom, ready to enter their

11:24

pleas. This time when

11:26

they walk in, they see the faces

11:28

of a dozen relatives from both sides

11:30

of the family. They

11:32

smile encouragingly at Lyle and Eric,

11:34

who stand when the judge calls

11:36

on them, listening carefully as she

11:39

again reads the charges. This

11:41

time she doesn't mess up Jose's

11:43

name, but Lyle and

11:45

Eric can't help but remember how she flubbed

11:48

at the last time. They

11:50

grin as she speaks, used to

11:52

a lifetime of people getting their father's name

11:54

wrong. With cameras

11:56

trained on them, the quick smiles

11:59

catch everyone's attention. Attention and

12:01

within minutes of the hearing pundits

12:03

are already discussing the disrespect and

12:05

arrogance of the murderous Menendez brothers

12:08

They smirked in the face of the

12:10

justice system. How dare they? With

12:14

the public eye fixed on them. It's

12:16

a dangerous blunder The

12:18

talking heads also latch on to the

12:20

brothers, please By

12:22

this stage it's been several weeks since

12:25

Lyle's arrest and the prosecutor's announcement that

12:27

greed was the only motive for the

12:29

murder With little else

12:31

to go on people around the country

12:33

have no reason not to believe that's

12:36

true But when they enter

12:38

their pleas the brothers signal that they're going

12:40

to fight the charges against them That's

12:43

when everyone starts chattering about what

12:45

their defense could possibly be people

12:49

assume the prosecution of got the

12:51

boys cornered and To be

12:53

fair the evidence against them is

12:55

pretty damning if it's admissible

12:57

in court that is The

13:00

smoking gun the authorities have is

13:02

actually a bundle of items the

13:05

notes and cassette tapes from dr

13:07

Jerry Oziel based on his sessions

13:09

with the brothers following their initial

13:11

confession When the police seized

13:13

the tapes they were supposed to be held

13:15

by a court-appointed master until there was a

13:18

ruling on their admissibility standard

13:20

practice for evidence like that But

13:23

Oziel insisted that the investigators listen

13:26

to the tapes right there in

13:28

his living room breaking his client's

13:30

privilege Now however, the

13:32

brothers lawyers are fighting the use of

13:35

the tapes in court hoping they'll be

13:37

thrown out If that

13:39

happens the state's case will fall apart

13:42

Even though Oziel's former lover Judalon

13:44

Smith has told the detectives everything

13:46

she knows about the brothers confession

13:49

the authorities still don't have any

13:51

physical evidence tying Lyle and Eric

13:53

to the murders Judalon

13:56

has told the cops where the brothers said

13:58

they got rid of the shotgun guns they

14:00

used to kill Jose and Kitty, tossed

14:02

down into the scrub off Mulholland Drive,

14:05

but a thorough search of the area

14:07

has turned up nothing. So

14:10

everything comes down to the tapes. The

14:13

brothers' attorneys argue that Lyle and

14:15

Eric never waived their right to

14:17

privacy, but the

14:19

prosecutors assert that privilege was

14:21

forfeited when the brothers allegedly

14:23

threatened Dr. Oziel. Eventually,

14:26

the court side with the prosecution,

14:29

sort of. Some of

14:31

the tapes are deemed admissible evidence,

14:33

just not the one that actually features

14:36

the brothers' voices. Only

14:38

Oziel's recorded notes will be heard in

14:40

court. That's enough

14:42

to make denying the murders tricky for

14:44

the defense. But as

14:47

the legal tussles drag on, the

14:49

brothers' team become less concerned with

14:51

Oziel's tapes because it's been decided

14:53

that the brothers aren't going to

14:55

deny that they killed their parents.

14:58

Instead, they're going to explain

15:00

why. While

15:05

their case has made its way

15:07

slowly through the courts, both brothers

15:09

have been speaking with a forensic

15:11

psychiatrist. Over a number

15:13

of months, the doctor slowly breaks

15:16

through their barriers and starts to

15:18

understand the Menendez boys' upbringing. At

15:21

first, Lyle and Eric keep quiet

15:24

about their home life to protect

15:26

their family's legacy, but the psychiatrist

15:28

quickly guesses that they've both been

15:31

living with extensive trauma for years.

15:34

Then the story emerges

15:36

through small, disturbing details.

15:39

In his 12th session with the doctor,

15:42

Eric reveals that Jose used to beat

15:44

Kitty with a belt. Eric

15:46

could see the bruises on her legs and

15:48

chest when she'd go swimming. In

15:51

the 25th session, Eric says

15:53

that Lyle once walked in

15:55

on Jose raping Kitty. He

15:57

tied her to the bed. Soon,

16:00

Eric is revealing the full extent

16:03

of the Dark Menendez family secret.

16:05

He and his brother were both

16:07

sexually abused by their parents throughout

16:09

their childhood. After

16:12

that, Eric and Lyle tell their lawyers, who

16:14

want to know why neither of them turned

16:16

to their relatives for help. After

16:19

all, that's a question that a jury will want

16:21

the answer to. But

16:23

the brothers can't answer. Today,

16:27

people largely understand how difficult it

16:29

can be for survivors of sexual

16:31

assault to tell people what they've

16:33

been through. But that's not

16:35

the case in the 1990s. So

16:38

the psychiatrist attempts to explain the

16:41

situation to the lawyers. According

16:44

to the doctor, both brothers

16:46

seem stunted after their upbringing.

16:48

Their actual ages don't line

16:50

up with their emotional maturity.

16:53

So although they look like men,

16:55

their ability to handle life experiences

16:57

like family conflict is closer to

16:59

that of a child. Both

17:02

in their 20s now, Lyle's equivalent

17:04

emotional age is closer to 13,

17:06

and Eric's is around 10. Seen

17:10

in that life, it's more understandable that

17:12

the brothers felt like they couldn't tell

17:14

an aunt or uncle what was happening.

17:17

They thought their parents were the only people

17:19

they could talk to. Once

17:21

the defense attorneys have the full

17:23

picture, they go on the offensive. The

17:26

prosecution has been shaping the narrative for

17:28

years by this stage, and it's time

17:31

to let the public know what was

17:33

really happening inside the Menendez home. In

17:36

July of 1993, over three

17:38

years after the brothers' arrest,

17:40

the Los Angeles Times publishes

17:42

a front page story revealing

17:44

the abuse. The

17:46

newspapers been informed that the brothers'

17:49

traumatic upbringing will be central to

17:51

their defense. Lyle and

17:53

Eric will admit to killing Jose

17:55

and Kitty, but their story will

17:57

justify their actions. At least

17:59

that's for now. what they hope. The

18:02

Menendez brothers will be tried at the

18:04

same time in the same courtroom, but

18:06

in front of two separate juries, one

18:09

for each brother. It's

18:11

a choice the judge makes to save

18:13

time and money, but it

18:16

adds another layer of complexity to

18:18

the proceedings because some of the

18:20

state's evidence relates only to Lyle,

18:22

while some is just about Eric.

18:25

That means one jury will sometimes

18:27

need to leave the courtroom so

18:29

they're not swayed by the wrong

18:31

information, and Lyle and

18:33

Eric will also require their own

18:35

separate legal teams. Different

18:37

attorneys will have to work together

18:40

as a united front. After

18:43

a thorough search, Lyle eventually

18:45

settles on Jill Lansing, while

18:47

Eric goes with Leslie Abramson.

18:50

Both women are skilled attorneys

18:53

with excellent reputations, but

18:55

it's Abramson who takes the lead,

18:57

and her credentials couldn't be better.

19:00

She's one of the top death penalty

19:02

lawyers in California, and has just recently

19:04

secured a sentence of probation for another

19:07

client who killed his father. If

19:09

anyone can win this case, it's

19:12

Abramson. When

19:14

the trial begins on July 20th, 1993, it's been almost four

19:16

years since the murders

19:20

of Jose and Kitty, and the

19:22

public's hunger for the story has

19:24

never been stronger. The

19:27

whole trial will be broadcast live

19:29

on television, but on the first

19:31

morning, people still line up outside

19:34

the courthouse in Van Nuys, about

19:36

six miles north of the family's

19:38

Beverly Hills mansion, hoping to watch

19:40

the drama unfold in person. When

19:44

the prosecutor Pam Bozanich makes her

19:46

opening remarks, she repeats the same

19:48

story the authorities have stuck to

19:50

since arresting Lyle and Eric, that

19:52

the brothers carefully planned and executed

19:55

the murders so they could get

19:57

their hands on their parents' wealth.

20:00

The defense attorney's arguments are

20:02

much more complicated. What

20:04

Jill Lansing and Leslie Abramson set out to

20:06

show is that on the night of August

20:09

20, 1989, Lyle

20:12

and Eric Menendez were afraid

20:14

for their lives. If

20:16

they could convince the juries that the

20:18

brothers acted out of a genuine belief

20:20

that their abusive parents were about to

20:23

kill them, then the end

20:25

result should be manslaughter convictions, not

20:28

murder. To that

20:30

end, the entire case comes down

20:32

to a complicated web of conflicting

20:35

testimony. The prosecution's

20:37

star witness is Eric's

20:39

psychiatrist, Dr. Oziel, so

20:42

the defense teams make undermining

20:44

him their first priority. During

20:47

cross-examination, the attorneys paint the

20:49

psychiatrist as a fame-hungry narcissist

20:51

who's all too eager to

20:53

get his face on television.

20:56

Then they reveal to the jurors that

20:58

Dr. Oziel's license was on probation at

21:01

the time he started treating the Menendez

21:03

family in the summer of 1988. That

21:07

revelation is a blow to

21:09

the therapist's credibility, and he

21:11

never really recovers. In

21:14

total, Oziel is on the stand for

21:16

six days, and each session is worse

21:18

for him than the last. One

21:21

of the most damning moments comes when

21:23

Eric's attorney, Leslie Abramson, plays the jury

21:25

a tape of a phone call between

21:28

Oziel and his secret lover, Judalon Smith,

21:30

from late 1989. In

21:33

the call, Oziel threatens Judalon.

21:36

He says that unless she behaves the

21:39

way he wants her to, he'll sick

21:41

the murderous Menendez to O'Laugh. It's

21:44

not good for Oziel, who suddenly looks

21:46

like he could be a dangerous man

21:48

himself. By the

21:50

time Oziel's testimony is finally

21:52

done, the prosecution's case seems

21:55

on shaky ground, but

21:57

the fight is far from over. The

22:00

juries might not like the state's key

22:02

witness, but the defense still needs to

22:04

convince them that the brothers' version of

22:06

events is the true one. It's

22:09

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We did R under 17.0. Don't tear it. Only the

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answer will fail. It's

23:27

just before two o'clock on September 10, 1993. The

23:32

trial of the Menendez brothers has been going

23:34

on for almost two months, but everyone in

23:36

the Van Nuys courtroom is alert as if

23:38

it's the morning of the first day. Defense

23:42

attorney Jill Lansing is asked to

23:44

call her next witness, and it's

23:47

dead silent as she announces that

23:49

it's her client, Joseph Lyle Menendez.

23:52

Now 25, Lyle looks

23:55

respectable in a blue button down

23:57

a Navy sweater. He makes

23:59

his way to the... witness stand. He

24:01

raises his right hand, swears to tell

24:04

the truth, then takes his seat. The

24:07

questions start out simple, as Lansing

24:09

asks Lyle about good memories of

24:11

his childhood, of his parents,

24:14

how he loved them both. Then

24:17

things pivot to the night of the murder.

24:20

Lyle's voice cracks as he admits that

24:22

he and his brother killed Jose and

24:24

Kitty, and that they did it because

24:26

they were afraid. Over

24:29

the next few hours, Lansing asks

24:32

Lyle more questions about his childhood.

24:35

The attorney has a voice and demeanor

24:37

that you'd imagine might suit a nurturing

24:39

high school teacher more than a criminal

24:41

defense lawyer. Her questions

24:43

feel like they come from a place

24:46

of genuine curiosity and concern for her

24:48

client. With her

24:50

gentle prodding, Lyle covers Jose's

24:52

aggressive parenting techniques. And

24:55

Kitty, he explains, was Jose's

24:57

watchful lieutenant. She'd

24:59

tell Lyle she wished he'd never been

25:02

born, and threatened to tell Jose if

25:04

Lyle didn't do exactly what was expected

25:06

of him. Then

25:08

things turn even more sinister.

25:11

From when Lyle was very young,

25:13

his father brought home violent pornographic

25:16

tapes and forced him to watch

25:18

them together. Jose also

25:20

liked to make his own kind

25:22

of pornography by taking photos of

25:24

his son's naked bodies. When

25:27

Lyle was six, his father started

25:29

telling him about soldiers who'd have

25:31

sex with each other on the

25:33

evil battle, ancient Greeks mostly. He'd

25:36

explain that they, father and son,

25:39

had that same kind of

25:41

relationship. Then Jose

25:43

started molesting Lyle. It

25:46

started out with massages and

25:48

fondling, and evolved over time

25:51

to include forced oral sex

25:53

and what Jose called object

25:55

sessions. Eventually,

25:57

things progressed to rape. Terrified

26:00

of his father, Lyle went to Kitty

26:02

and begged her to make it stop.

26:05

His mother dismissed him. Jose

26:07

had to punish him, she said. It was

26:09

only right. Eventually, she

26:11

carried out her own form of

26:13

abuse on her eldest son. She

26:16

insisted on bathing him until he was about

26:18

13 and liked him

26:21

to come with her to bed and let

26:23

his hands roam around her body in the dark.

26:26

Lyle didn't tell anyone about the abuse. Jose

26:29

warned him that bad things would happen to

26:31

him if he spilled the secret so Lyle

26:34

kept it. He didn't even

26:36

tell his younger brother, but

26:38

Eric would come to understand in

26:40

time. After nine

26:42

days of questioning, Lyle finally returns

26:45

to his seat at the defense

26:47

table. Then, on September

26:49

27th, Eric takes his place in

26:51

the witness box. In

26:54

a blue shirt and burgundy patterned tie,

26:56

he looks like a kid dressed in

26:58

his father's clothes. All

27:00

through the trial, the brother's team have

27:02

dressed them in outfits to make them

27:05

look younger than they are, a ploy

27:07

to remind the jurors of the young

27:09

boys who were abused by their father.

27:12

For the first few minutes on

27:14

the stand, Eric's deep voice is

27:16

steady as his lawyer, Leslie Abramson,

27:18

eases into her questions, but

27:21

when they finally get to the heart of the case...

27:25

Mr. Menendez, you've heard the testimony of your

27:27

brother that you and he killed your parents

27:29

on August 20th, 1989. Did

27:31

you not? Yes, we did. What

27:36

do you believe was

27:38

the originating cause of

27:41

you and your brother ultimately winding

27:44

up shooting your parents? Um,

27:48

me telling. You're

27:53

telling Lyle? Me telling Lyle

27:56

that uh... Wow

28:00

What? You're

28:05

telling lies about something That was. Passing

28:08

Monday and. More

28:17

the and. Are

28:20

Dead and the most

28:23

famous. And. Did

28:27

you want something from your brother? Is that

28:30

why you told him? It

28:32

was so. After

28:37

that, it all comes tumbling

28:39

out. Jose started molesting

28:42

Eric when the boy was around

28:44

six. For whatever reason,

28:46

Jose stopped assaulting Lyle at

28:48

the age of eight, But

28:50

Eric's nightmare just kept going

28:52

all through his childhood. Eric

28:54

was subjected to his father's

28:56

violent sexual urges. With.

28:58

His youngest son Jose went even

29:01

further than he did with loyal

29:03

even allegedly pushing turns into where

29:05

it's genitals during oral sex. Both

29:09

loyal and Derek cry during their

29:11

testimony, as do several jurors and

29:13

a number of the veteran journalist

29:15

sitting in the gallery. After

29:18

that, the defense presents a parade

29:20

of the brothers, relatives, teachers, and

29:22

family friends to corroborate their story.

29:25

One. Of the boys, cousins justifies

29:27

done. An eight year old loyal

29:30

told her Jose had been touching

29:32

his genitals. Alarmed the cousin told

29:34

kitty Kitty did nothing. Another

29:37

cousin, Eddie, chain of reveals that

29:39

Eric told him about the abuse

29:41

several times when they were both

29:43

young but sworn to secrecy. The

29:46

prosecution tries to poke holes in

29:48

the defenses witness list, but there's

29:51

a veritable army of people who

29:53

all confirm what the brothers are

29:55

saying is true one after another,

29:58

but that's only half the battle Next,

30:00

the defense has to convince the juries

30:03

that the brothers genuinely feared for their

30:05

lives on August 20th. Only

30:08

that can win them a favorable verdict. So

30:11

they put a psychologist on the

30:13

stand, who testifies that abuse victims

30:16

have a faster biological reaction to

30:18

fear than people who haven't been

30:20

traumatized. She explains

30:23

that repeated psychological trauma can

30:25

cause hypervigilance, which means that

30:27

a person is constantly searching

30:29

environments for danger. In

30:32

other words, it's possible, believable

30:34

even, that people who've been

30:37

abused, like Lyle and Eric,

30:39

could misinterpret signals from their

30:41

abusers. Especially when

30:43

they know those abusers, their

30:45

parents, own several guns. By

30:49

the time the defense finally rests on December 3rd, 1993,

30:52

the trial has gone on for 20 weeks, with

30:57

over 100 witnesses taking the stand.

31:01

Now it's time for closing statements. When

31:04

the lead prosecutor stands to kick

31:06

things off, she sticks to the

31:09

same argument. Whatever happened to the

31:11

Menendez brothers doesn't excuse their

31:13

violent response. Nothing can,

31:15

she says. When

31:17

talking about Eric though, the

31:19

prosecutors try an underhanded ploy.

31:22

They allege that he made the choice

31:25

to be gay. It's

31:27

a theory they weren't allowed to present

31:29

during testimony, but the rules are different

31:32

for closing arguments. They

31:34

say that the abuse scenarios

31:36

he described with his father

31:38

were just experiences taken from

31:41

Eric's quote, homosexual lifestyle. Even

31:44

though there's no evidence that Eric

31:46

is gay, the idea will prove

31:48

to be a powerful eleventh hour

31:50

suggestion. And if

31:52

that weren't enough, the lead prosecutor

31:54

later announces to the court that

31:56

Men quote, cannot be raped

31:59

because they lack the necessary

32:01

equipment. It's the prosecution's

32:03

argument that because of this, the

32:05

brothers could have nothing to fear

32:07

from their father and no reason

32:09

to kill him except for his

32:11

money. The defense

32:13

lawyers are outraged by these scurrilous

32:16

late remarks, but they stick to

32:18

their strategy. The brothers'

32:20

attorneys remind the jurors that understanding what

32:22

was going on in Lyle and Eric's

32:25

heads on the night they shot their

32:27

parents is key to deciding what kind

32:29

of crime took place. Were

32:32

they scared for their own lives or

32:34

not? Hoping to

32:36

underline the point, Eric's lawyer

32:38

Leslie Abramson wonders aloud if

32:40

things would be different if

32:42

her client's name were Erica.

32:45

Would that make jurors feel differently

32:47

about the abuse Jose committed? Would

32:49

fear be a more understandable emotion

32:52

if the brothers were actually sisters?

32:55

That question is one of the

32:57

last things jurors hear before they're

33:00

sent off to deliberate, with instructions

33:02

from Judge Weisberg that there's only

33:04

four possible verdicts. Guilty

33:07

of first or second degree

33:09

murder and voluntary or involuntary

33:12

manslaughter. He tells them

33:14

that there's no legal theory by which

33:16

they can render a not guilty verdict.

33:19

So at this stage, Lyle and Eric's teams

33:21

have done all they can. Now

33:24

it's up to the juries. The

33:27

deliberations drag on for days.

33:30

From their opening discussions, both

33:32

juries are evenly divided over

33:34

the case, with half voting

33:36

for murder convictions and half

33:38

opting for manslaughter. On

33:40

Eric's jury, the women advocate for manslaughter

33:43

while the men vote for murder. Similarly,

33:46

the men seem unconvinced by the

33:48

brothers claim of sexual abuse and

33:50

more susceptible to the suggestion that

33:53

Eric was gay and made things

33:55

up. Both sides

33:57

and flexibility holds for weeks.

34:00

with no one willing to change their vote.

34:03

Finally, on January 14th, Eric's

34:05

jury returns to the courtroom

34:07

and announces that they're deadlocked.

34:10

At this point, the judge declares

34:12

a mistrial for Eric. Two

34:15

weeks later, Lyle's jury reports

34:17

that they are also deadlocked.

34:20

Frustrated, the judge declares

34:22

another mistrial. In

34:25

the wake of the news, the

34:27

district attorney immediately vows that his

34:29

office will retry the brothers. The

34:32

authorities are determined to get justice in

34:34

the case. The new

34:36

trial begins almost two years later, on

34:38

September 28th, 1995. By this stage, it's

34:40

been six

34:44

years since Lyle and Eric killed their

34:46

parents, and public interest in the case

34:48

is winged. But inside

34:51

the courtroom, many of the same

34:53

players are on the board. The

34:55

judge, the defendants, even attorney Leslie

34:58

Abramson. At the

35:00

prosecutor's table, David Kahn has taken

35:02

over for the DA's office. He's

35:05

better prepared than his predecessor because

35:07

he knows everything that happened in

35:09

the first trial, and he

35:11

gets off to a strong start with a

35:13

little help from Judge Weisberg. In

35:16

pretrial hearings, Weisberg stuns the

35:18

defense by decreeing that the

35:20

boy's history of abuse is

35:22

irrelevant to the case. So

35:25

it can only be brought up if it

35:27

relates directly to their state of mind at

35:29

the time of the murder. With

35:31

most of the abuse evidence now

35:33

excluded, the prosecutors opt for a

35:36

different tactic. At the

35:38

first trial, the state's argument was that

35:40

the abuse didn't excuse the shootings. Now

35:43

they contend that the abuse never

35:45

even happened. The whole

35:48

thing is a crushing blow to the brother's

35:50

case. The judge is

35:52

essentially denying them the defense that worked

35:54

at the first trial, and if Lyle

35:56

and Eric can't convince the new jury

35:58

that they were abused, Will the jurors

36:00

believe the brothers' version of events? So

36:04

although on this first day the

36:06

courtroom looks somewhat similar, the trial

36:08

itself is set to be very,

36:10

very different. When

36:13

it comes time for witness testimony, only

36:15

the younger brother Eric takes the stand

36:17

this time. After

36:19

the first trial, evidence emerged that Lyle

36:21

once asked his friends to lie for

36:23

him around the time of his arrest.

36:26

Putting him on the stand would open

36:29

him up to questions about that and

36:31

damage his credibility, so he stays on

36:33

the bench while Eric, now 25, submits

36:36

to questioning again. But

36:38

his testimony doesn't pack the same punch

36:40

as it did two years earlier. What's

36:43

more, Lyle's silence means his team can't

36:46

call the witnesses who spoke to his

36:48

state of mind during the first trial.

36:53

In 1993, relatives, coaches,

36:55

friends, and therapists all

36:58

corroborated the stories of

37:00

Lyle's abusive upbringing. Now

37:02

there's no one to speak for. As

37:06

a result, there are fewer than

37:08

half the witnesses on the defense

37:10

roster for trial number two, and

37:12

when Leslie Abramson does manage to

37:15

get people on the stand, prosecutor

37:17

Kahn objects to almost every question,

37:19

making it impossible for a complete

37:21

picture to form. The

37:23

final blow to the brother's case

37:26

comes when Judge Weisberg tells the

37:28

jury that they're only allowed to

37:30

consider certain pieces of evidence in

37:32

their deliberations. He also

37:34

rules that the brothers aren't

37:36

entitled to a verdict of

37:38

involuntary manslaughter, essentially whittling down

37:40

the options to either first

37:42

or second-degree murder. Inside

37:46

the courtroom, Leslie Abramson is

37:48

furious. Her blonde curls

37:50

shake as she tells reporters that

37:52

Judge Weisberg has made himself the

37:54

13th juror, undermining

37:56

the established jury system.

38:00

After that, the jurors spend just

38:02

four days deliberating. They

38:04

don't even consider the sexual abuse

38:06

allegations this time. It's

38:08

a non-issue for them. On

38:15

March 21, 1996, the court reconvenes to hear the verdict. Eric

38:21

holds tightly to Abramson's hand,

38:23

staring forward as he waits.

38:26

Beside him, Lyle is stoic, his

38:28

attorney's arm draped over his shoulder.

38:31

When the clerk announces that both brothers

38:34

are guilty of first-degree murder, Eric looks

38:36

up for a moment, then lets his

38:38

head fall. Lyle

38:40

barely moves. It's

38:42

over. There are

38:45

only two possible sentences the Menendez

38:47

has faced, the death penalty or

38:49

life in prison without the possibility

38:52

of parole. The

38:54

prosecution fights hard for the brothers'

38:56

execution, while their relatives plead for

38:59

mercy. They don't want

39:01

any more bloodshed, especially not after what

39:03

Jose and Kitty did to their children.

39:06

In early April, the jury returns with

39:08

their final decision. The brothers

39:10

will spend the rest of their days

39:13

behind bars. After

39:15

the ruling, the Beverly Hills PD

39:17

requests that the brothers be housed

39:19

in separate prisons, saying that

39:21

they'll plot to murder again if they're allowed

39:24

to stay together. So in

39:26

September of 1996, Lyle

39:29

and Eric are loaded into transport vans

39:31

on opposite ends of the LA County

39:33

Jail yard. Then, they're

39:35

driven into the night without getting

39:38

to say goodbye. But

39:40

although that might feel like the end

39:42

of the saga of the Menendez family,

39:45

it's not. Even today,

39:47

the story's not over. There's

39:49

still a chance that everything could

39:52

change. so

40:00

mysterious, so diverse, so

40:03

peaceful, so safe. But

40:05

seriously, is that how it really

40:08

is? While Asia is 100% filled

40:10

with amazing people, culture, food,

40:13

and landscape, it is

40:15

also home to crazy legends, superstitions, and

40:17

of course, atrocious kinds.

40:20

The Asian Madness podcast covers a

40:22

wide variety of topics, ranging

40:25

from silly weird things to

40:27

unimaginable whores. Why

40:30

is a murder case nicknamed the Hello Kitty

40:32

murder? Why do people avoid picking

40:34

up random red envelopes on the streets? And

40:37

who are the most infamous serial killers

40:40

you've probably never heard of from Asia?

40:43

If any of that sounds interesting, search

40:45

for and subscribe to the Asian

40:47

Madness podcast on your favorite podcast

40:50

app. Gather

40:52

round friend, and join me by the

40:54

fire. I have a secret to share.

40:58

When I was a child, I lived with my

41:00

grandma. She allowed me to

41:02

watch Unsolved Mysteries. Fast

41:04

forward to 2008, my freshman

41:07

year of college. A

41:09

series of armed robberies on campus

41:11

escalated into a serial rapist's reign

41:13

of terror. That's

41:15

when I created my first crime podcast.

41:19

In January 2014, I

41:21

picked up the podcast again, from

41:23

my college roommate, who fell for an

41:26

underage girl online, to the

41:28

chilling story of a murdered nun in 1969 Baltimore, and

41:30

in the

41:33

throwaway series. I share

41:35

my own journey of overcoming homelessness and

41:37

how that experience led me to unmask

41:40

a serial killer and identify three of

41:42

his Jane Doe victims. This

41:45

is Foul Play Crime Series, where the

41:48

stories are real and the truth is

41:50

waiting to be discovered. The

42:02

1995 conviction of Lyle

42:04

and Eric Menendez came with little

42:06

fanfare, partly because the

42:08

second trial wasn't televised like the first

42:11

one was, but there was another factor

42:13

at play as well. The

42:15

first Menendez trial was a contender

42:18

for the superlative trial of the

42:20

century, but the second wasn't even

42:22

a contender for trial of the

42:24

year. That's because it

42:26

began right when the nation's attention

42:28

was fixed on the murder trial

42:30

of O.J. Simpson. The

42:33

Simpson courtroom drama and his

42:35

eventual acquittal was just the

42:37

latest in a series of controversial

42:39

trials within Los Angeles. The

42:42

first was over the beating of Rodney King,

42:44

a black man who was set upon by

42:46

a group of LAPD officers in 1991. Although

42:51

the four cops were charged over the

42:53

incident, which was videotaped by a bystander,

42:55

they were all acquitted by the mostly

42:57

white jury in 1992. The

43:01

verdict stunned the nation and sparked

43:03

six days of deadly riots across

43:05

L.A. People wondered

43:07

how a jury could have possibly

43:09

reached that conclusion, igniting

43:12

fierce debate about racism in the

43:14

justice system. The mayor

43:16

of Los Angeles called the verdict

43:18

senseless, and President George H. W.

43:20

Bush said he was stunned. Then,

43:23

during the riots, a group of four

43:26

black men dragged a white truck driver

43:28

onto the street and beat him almost

43:30

to death. At their

43:32

trials, each of the assailants received

43:34

jail time, contrasting the fate of

43:37

the white cops who beat King.

43:40

So by the time the first

43:42

Menendez trial began, the wider public

43:45

was almost expecting another divisive verdict.

43:48

As the proceedings unfolded on live TV

43:50

and men were picked up over the

43:52

evening news and talked back radio, there

43:54

was a general belief that Lyle and

43:57

Eric Menendez were guilty as sin, no

43:59

matter what. matter what claims they

44:01

made about sexual abuse. It

44:04

seemed everyone had an opinion about whether

44:06

the brothers were telling the truth, and

44:08

many clearly thought it was all a

44:10

lie. They dismissed it as

44:13

the abuse excuse, which was an idea that

44:15

was fresh in the minds of the American

44:17

people during the summer of 1993 during

44:21

the brothers first trial. That's

44:23

when a woman named Lorena Bobbitt

44:25

was arrested for cutting off her

44:27

husband's penis, then claiming she did

44:29

it in retaliation for years of

44:32

domestic abuse and rape. When

44:34

the first Menendez juries failed to

44:36

reach a verdict, journalists published think

44:38

pieces about the gender divides in

44:41

the two groups, and dissected the

44:43

trial, looking for clues about what

44:45

contributed to the legal draw. Journalists

44:48

and legal experts even speculated

44:50

about how Leslie Abramson's forceful

44:52

personality in the courtroom and

44:54

motherly affection towards Eric might

44:56

have alienated male jurors while

44:58

endearing the women in the

45:00

room. That's the

45:02

level of discussion that was taking place

45:05

during and right after the initial

45:07

trial. Following the

45:09

mistrial, the district attorney was determined

45:11

to secure a conviction against the

45:14

brothers. It's what he

45:16

believed the people of California wanted from

45:18

their justice system. But to

45:20

do that, prosecutors turned a

45:22

case full of shades of gray

45:24

into a story of black and

45:27

white. The brothers were

45:29

not abused. The brothers were

45:31

greedy. The brothers were murderers.

45:33

And by eliminating the defense's ability

45:36

to explain their actions, they got

45:38

what plenty of people thought was

45:40

a fair outcome. In

45:42

the eyes of the law and a

45:44

jury of their peers, the Menendez brothers

45:46

were guilty. So the fact that they

45:48

were going to spend the rest of

45:50

their lives behind bars just felt right.

45:53

Following the convictions, the brothers launched

45:56

an appeal, but their lawyers

45:58

arguing that the limitations of the law were not the case. The patience placed

46:00

on their defense was grounds for a

46:02

new trial. The process

46:04

lasted for years, until

46:07

it reached the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals

46:09

in 2005. There

46:12

the Menendez case went before a panel

46:14

of three judges, whose job it was

46:16

to weigh the merits of the initial

46:18

rulings. The judges

46:21

challenged the attorneys on both sides,

46:23

who argued about whether the trial's

46:25

initial judge, Stanley Weisberg, should have

46:28

allowed certain evidence at the second

46:30

trial. At one

46:32

point in the appeal hearing,

46:34

Justice Alex Kaczynski suggested that

46:36

what the prosecution did at

46:38

the second trial, excluding most

46:41

of the evidence that supported

46:43

the brother's defense, was quote-unquote

46:45

distasteful. Even so,

46:47

the court turned down Lyle and

46:49

Eric's appeal, effectively ending their bid

46:51

for a new trial. After

46:54

that, not much happened with the case

46:57

for another decade. But

46:59

then, almost out of nowhere, new

47:02

developments arose to give the brothers

47:04

fresh hope. In

47:06

2017, a scripted miniseries

47:08

about the case aired on NBC.

47:12

The successful series offered a fresh look

47:14

at the brother's account of what happened,

47:17

where once the public had been

47:20

skeptical of Lyle and Eric's claims,

47:22

now many were more sympathetic. Just

47:26

a few months later, in 2018,

47:28

after repeated applications for transfer, Lyle

47:30

and Eric were finally reunited in

47:32

the same prison after 22 years

47:35

apart. That

47:38

same year, the brother's aunt, Marta Cano,

47:40

was going through the belongings of her

47:42

late son Andy when she made an

47:45

alarming discovery. At

47:47

both trials, Andy testified that Eric

47:49

had repeatedly told him about the

47:51

ways Jose was abusing him when

47:53

they were both young teenagers. At

47:56

the second trial, the prosecution insisted

47:59

that the stories of abuse

48:01

were all fabricated because there

48:03

simply wasn't any proof. But

48:06

among Andy's things, Marta discovered a

48:08

letter that Eric wrote to his

48:10

cousin about eight months before Jose

48:12

and Kitty's deaths. In

48:14

it, Eric confided that the abuse

48:17

was still happening, and

48:19

it had even gotten worse. The

48:21

letter seemed like evidence backing up the

48:24

brothers' claims, making it a compelling reason

48:26

to consider a campaign to free the

48:28

brothers. But that

48:30

push didn't gain real momentum

48:33

until 2023. That's

48:35

when a former member of the

48:37

Puerto Rican boy band Manudo came

48:39

forward with allegations of his own

48:41

about Jose Menendez. In

48:43

a documentary about the legendary music group,

48:45

which Jose fought hard to sign to

48:48

RCA Records in the 1980s,

48:50

Roy Rosello stated that Jose raped him

48:52

when Rosello was just 13. After

48:56

the documentary aired, attorneys for Lyle

48:58

and Eric filed a petition with

49:00

the Los Angeles County Superior Court

49:02

to have their convictions vacated or

49:05

to grant the brothers a new

49:07

trial. The appeal stated

49:09

that the shootings were not murder,

49:11

but manslaughter. Their filings

49:14

cited the new evidence that Jose was

49:16

a sexual predator, as well as the

49:18

letter Eric wrote to his cousin in

49:20

1988. From

49:22

the outside, it would seem only fair

49:25

the brothers should at least get a

49:27

new trial, one that includes all the

49:29

new evidence along with what was barred

49:31

from the second trial. After

49:34

all, society's attitudes towards survivors

49:36

of sexual abuse have evolved

49:38

in the decades since the

49:40

original hearings. The Me

49:42

Too movement has seen powerful predators

49:44

brought to justice after years of

49:47

unchecked attacks. Courts have

49:49

even ruled in favor of survivors

49:51

who killed their abusers. But

49:54

changing the fate of Lyle and Eric

49:56

Menendez will be an uphill battle, even

49:59

if the new evidence supports their claims

50:01

of abuse and societal changes have

50:03

made the brothers more sympathetic figures,

50:05

they still have to convince the

50:08

courts to reverse a conviction. Something

50:11

legal experts say judges don't like

50:13

to do. As of

50:15

this recording, there's no ruling on

50:17

that petition. So, while

50:19

all eyes are fixed on the

50:22

Los Angeles courts, once more, there's

50:24

nothing anyone can really do now.

50:26

But wait. At

50:30

the end of Lyle and Eric's

50:32

second trial, defense attorney Leslie Abramson

50:34

said to the jury, I could

50:37

sob for an hour. If

50:39

only I had a time machine, I could

50:41

go back and grab them. She

50:43

wanted to save them all, the brothers

50:46

from their parents, the parents from

50:48

their sons. If only it

50:50

were that easy. All

50:52

anyone can do is wonder whether things

50:54

would be different today. If

50:57

the story of the Menendez family

50:59

were happening now, the entire trajectory

51:01

might be changed. Jose

51:04

might not feel a powerful, violent

51:06

urge to prove himself a success.

51:09

Kitty might have the tools she needs

51:11

to leave her unhappy marriage. Lyle

51:14

and Eric might have escaped the cycle

51:16

of abuse thanks to adults in their

51:18

lives who learned how to recognize the

51:20

signs. The brothers

51:23

might never have feared hearing their

51:25

father's footsteps outside of their bedroom

51:27

doors. They might never

51:29

have bought the shotguns, might never have

51:31

squeezed the triggers. But

51:34

if none of those things changed and

51:36

the murders still happened, would the outcome

51:38

differ today? Would Lyle

51:41

and Eric Menendez now enter a

51:43

justice system better equipped to handle

51:45

their case? Would the

51:47

prosecutors, jurors, judge, journalists, radio

51:50

hosts, and comedians know better

51:52

than to dismiss allegations of

51:55

sexual abuse? Or

51:57

would it all stay the same? Perhaps.

52:00

Perhaps this is where the Menendez story

52:02

was always going to end. Not

52:04

with accountability and healing, but

52:07

with bloodshed and regret. From

52:13

Airship, this is episode 4 in

52:15

our series on the Menendez Brothers.

52:19

Next on American Criminal, in a

52:21

special interview episode, we learn more

52:23

about the Menendez Brothers, the crime,

52:25

the tribe, and what justice might

52:27

mean when it's televised. If

52:36

anything in today's episode hit close to

52:38

home, or you just need someone to

52:41

talk to, there are free resources for

52:43

you. We put links in the

52:45

show's description. If

52:49

you'd like to learn more about

52:51

the Menendez Brothers, we recommend the

52:53

Menendez murders, the shocking untold story

52:55

of the Menendez family and the

52:58

killings that stunned the nation by

53:00

Robert Rand, Hung Jury, the Diary

53:02

of a Menendez Juror by Hazel

53:05

Thornton, and the documentary series Menendez

53:07

and Menudo, Boys Betray. This

53:10

episode contains reenactments and dramatized details,

53:12

and while in most cases we

53:15

can't know exactly what was said,

53:17

all of our dramatizations are

53:19

based on historical research. American

53:22

Criminal is hosted, edited, and produced

53:25

by me, Jeremy Schwartz. Also

53:27

editing by Mohammad Shazeev. Sound

53:30

design by Matthew Fuller. Music

53:33

by Thrun. This episode is

53:35

written and researched by Joel Callan. Managing

53:38

producer Emily Burke. Executive

53:41

producers are Joel Callan, William

53:43

Simpson, and Lindsey Graham for

53:45

Airship. We

53:51

all love pop culture, but you know

53:53

what? It can be exhausting. And you

53:55

know what there isn't enough of? It's

53:57

actually funny working comedians talking about all

53:59

the stuff they're doing. that we love.

54:01

And to be honest, love to hate.

54:03

From what's trending online with celebrities to

54:05

what's trending online, well, because TikTok told

54:07

us so. Hi guys, I'm comedian Justin

54:09

Martindale, the host of the Just Sayin'

54:11

podcast with Justin Martindale on the Comedy

54:13

Store Network, the mecca of comedy. And

54:15

each week I sit down with some

54:17

of the funniest people you know and

54:19

we talk about all of the things

54:21

happening right now in pop culture. And

54:24

we have the best guests from Leslie

54:26

Jones to Katya to Zainab Johnson and

54:28

Pete Holmes. We have them all. We

54:30

break down the hottest stories, the

54:32

drama, and are unafraid doing so

54:34

and say what everybody else is

54:37

thinking. Just Sayin' with Justin

54:39

Martindale coming to you live on the Sunset

54:41

Strip from the Comedy Store in West Hollywood.

54:43

So check us out on YouTube or wherever

54:45

you get your podcasts. We'll see you there.

54:47

You won't be disappointed. Just sayin'.