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1:04

river flows past towering stone and

1:06

glass structures carrying boats looking too

1:09

large to slip beneath the low

1:11

steel bridges spanning over them. Today,

1:13

the river is not gray or

1:16

blue green and not any normal

1:18

sort of green. put a bright

1:20

green. because today is St. Patrick's

1:23

Day, might assume something's wrong with

1:25

our eyes, except for the fact

1:27

that a crowd of marry revelers

1:29

just swarmed past us, clad in

1:32

the same unusual Hughes wearing. Not

1:34

normal expressions on their faces.

1:36

We trundle up behind them and

1:39

are immediately swept into a river

1:41

of another sort. Floats, marching

1:43

bands, an Irish dancers kicking and

1:45

tapping his one. It's a parade.

1:48

Bagpipes blaring, bad tenors stretching

1:50

for notes, a general hubbub

1:52

filling the air with Joy Ride

1:54

all in honor of Ireland's

1:56

patron saint. Only this isn't

1:58

Ireland. It should. The Annoyed

2:00

on the Chicago River. The bright

2:03

green Chicago river leading out to

2:05

Lake Michigan. It is St. Patrick's

2:07

Day in America. Three and a

2:10

half thousand miles from the Emerald

2:12

Isle. Welcome.

2:23

To American history it I'm your host on Wild and.

2:26

It is a fact of life in

2:28

this ground land of ours. If any

2:31

of your family tree branched out to

2:33

American Shores in the eighteenth or nineteenth

2:35

century or even after, odds are some

2:37

Dna strand tracks back to the emerald

2:40

shores of Ireland. Obviously, many

2:42

exceptions to this rule. Many variations, but

2:44

with a massive waves of immigration from

2:46

Ireland to the United States throughout the

2:49

centuries, it's a strong likelihood there's

2:51

Irish in there somewhere. Americans,

2:53

Are deeply proud of this heritage.

2:55

Sipping are green beer on St.

2:57

Patrick's Day quoting Yates singing Danny

2:59

Boy at the top of our

3:01

lungs. but still. So many of

3:04

us don't realize the history, the

3:06

economic political and cultural pressures as

3:08

forced those ancestors of ours in

3:10

exile from a land most preferred

3:12

not to leave. So

3:14

pull. On your Kelly Green jumper and

3:16

let's make a wholly so of the

3:19

ructions that went into at all. It's

3:21

the history of the Irish in America,

3:23

and we are lucky to be joined

3:25

by Kevin Kenny Glucksmann professor of History

3:27

at N Y U. New York University.

3:29

author of the Problem of Immigration in

3:31

a slave holding Republic Policing Mobility in

3:33

the Nineteenth century United States from Oxford

3:35

University Press among many other titles will

3:37

mention later. He is also

3:39

president of the Immigration and Ethnic History

3:42

Society. A law Professor Doctor

3:44

Kenneth Kevin Happy St. Patrick's Day by

3:46

que dans it's a pleasure to be

3:48

here. Oh, and you've got the Irish

3:50

brogue to boot! Fantastic A yes. and

3:52

Daves never lost it's successor. I

3:55

quit checks on the National Museum of

3:57

Ireland's website gives these statistics. I love.

4:00

The next. Six. Million Irish

4:02

immigrants to the United States since

4:04

eighteen Twenty seem to actually a

4:06

modest number compared to what I

4:09

am imagine peak of immigration Ireland

4:11

to Us during the Great Salmon.

4:13

Eighteen forty five hour or so

4:15

two million people today one six

4:18

of the American population. Some forty

4:20

three million citizens identify themselves as

4:22

Irish Americans. And. Of course, if you

4:24

live in the New York region as we do, there is

4:26

a much greater ratio. Is a huge

4:28

fact of American life that we're about

4:31

to take a partisan? And yes, of

4:33

the figures are extraordinary. If you look

4:35

at the total number of people who

4:37

left Ireland's since seventeen hundred to the

4:39

presence, you're talking about ten million. Individual:

4:42

men, women, and children. The.

4:44

Pit all time peak of the

4:47

Irish population. Was. A point:

4:49

Five million in eighteen forty five

4:51

on the eve of the Great

4:53

Famine, And only seven million people

4:56

live on the islands north and

4:58

south today. So that's your starting

5:00

points. Absolutely massive figures. To

5:03

the extent that we might call the

5:05

United States the nation of immigrants. Will.

5:07

Them Islands is one of

5:09

the classic nations of emigrants.

5:12

What's. Interesting, and what we're about to

5:14

discuss is that most Americans, including myself would

5:16

have attributed this to the potato famine which

5:18

is of course though, the peak as I

5:21

say, but the Irish had been emigrating for

5:23

years before that it's on either side that

5:25

and is still an enormous amount of people.

5:28

So. As I could popular

5:30

understanding, the story of Irish America

5:32

begins in eighteen forty five with

5:34

the Great Famine and certainly the

5:37

Farm and is absolutely decipher them.

5:39

The story to two million people

5:41

leave the islands. Between. Eight

5:43

Forty Five. And Eighteen Fifty

5:45

Five. And. Most of them come

5:47

to the United States. However,

5:50

The migration began earlier on. it

5:52

lasted longer. It's a three hundred

5:54

year phenomenon, not a tenure phenomenon.

5:56

A big story in this story

5:58

is that of. The and and

6:00

I never considered how these being English

6:03

colonies would have perhaps restricted Irish immigration

6:05

prior to the revolution was at the

6:07

case. Yes, it was so

6:09

urged by Gray to the present.

6:11

A United States begins in the

6:13

seventeenth century. It's. Pretty

6:15

small scale. It's largely

6:18

servant soldiers. To

6:21

some extent conflicts. The.

6:23

United States and the nineteenth century

6:25

on the American Colonies before loves

6:28

were not especially friendly play from

6:30

for Catholics. So. Catholic Irish

6:32

immigrants coming in the seventeenth century.

6:34

They're usually pretty poor and exploitable.

6:37

But. There were laws prohibiting their

6:39

arrival and parts of the colonies

6:41

as well. It's. Kind of helpful

6:44

to think of it in waves. And they're small

6:46

waves. And there's large ones obviously. Potato famine is

6:48

a huge one. Let's talk about

6:50

the first wave sort of around eighteen

6:52

twenties. This is mostly immigrants from the

6:54

North Ulster county often called Scotch Irish.

6:57

Where. It land ownership was a

6:59

big factor. greater religious freedom. And.

7:02

They came to mostly Philadelphia right the Pennsylvania

7:04

area. So. The familiar story

7:06

of Irish America which his

7:08

mouth Catholic emigration. the story

7:10

that produce John F. Kennedy

7:12

know the heroes of of

7:14

the Irish America. Gets.

7:17

Underway only of the eighteen

7:19

twenties. If you were to stop

7:21

the clock at the time before that for

7:23

a century before that. if you stop the

7:25

clock and look for Irish American. You'll.

7:27

Find two things: One.

7:29

It's primarily protestants, not

7:32

Catholic, It's composed

7:34

mostly of Presbyterians from

7:36

the northern province of

7:38

Ulster. And secondly,

7:40

they subtle about half of

7:42

them in Pennsylvania. But.

7:45

The rest of them and

7:47

points south for those an

7:49

extraordinary internal migration from Pennsylvania.

7:52

Down. Through Maryland and Virginia,

7:54

through the back country. Of

7:56

the Carolinas all the way down to Georgia

7:59

and that eventually. The into the

8:01

new state of Kentucky and Tennessee.

8:03

This is important because these Presbyterian

8:05

Irish where the Irish Americans before

8:08

eighteen twenty. And you

8:10

could make a strong case actually

8:12

a that the first Irish American

8:14

president. Was. Not John F. Kennedy

8:17

And Eight and Sixty It was

8:19

Andrew Jackson. Because. Andrew Jackson's

8:21

parents came from the Northern Province

8:23

of else or just two years

8:25

before he was born. But.

8:27

Jackson didn't regard himself as Irish

8:30

American. An hour familiar sense. Irregardless

8:32

and self first and foremost as

8:35

America. But. If we put

8:37

an ethnic label on him, we might use

8:39

the term Scots Irish. As. I

8:41

say these are skilled laborers coming over

8:43

many working in the on them new

8:45

railroad lines that are being constructed also

8:48

in mining. The. Second Wave begins

8:50

in Eighteen Forty Five. It's a whole

8:52

different kind of think. Twenty years later.

8:54

This is due to the potato Blight

8:57

which we should define. What exactly happened

8:59

during the potato Blight was our so

9:01

many people insist that straits. Starting

9:04

an aged forty five

9:06

island was struck by

9:08

an unprecedented ecological catastrophe.

9:11

That. Potato crop failed.

9:13

And a huge proportion of the

9:16

population was dependent. Primarily.

9:18

Are indeed exclusively on the

9:20

potato. For. Their. Ability

9:22

to stay alive. Now else

9:25

historians, we want a draw

9:27

a distinction between crop failure

9:29

and. Salmon. The

9:31

crop did fail. But. It'll

9:33

labs to a famine. That.

9:36

Killed still over one

9:38

million people through starvation

9:40

and disease. And led

9:42

to the emigration of just

9:45

over two million people. And

9:47

so within a single decades,

9:49

the population of Ireland was

9:51

reduced by one third. And

9:53

that's a catastrophe. that catastrophe

9:55

without parallel in modern European

9:58

history. Let's. Get a little by. Illogical.

10:00

The potato farmers caused by a

10:02

fungus is called a water mold

10:05

that causes roots and to birth

10:07

to rot. Basically. And. Once

10:09

it takes hold on one plant, it can

10:11

move to the next. In that's a key

10:13

factor because potatoes or such a huge crop

10:16

in Ireland. For. What reason I've always

10:18

wondered that. The. Potato is

10:20

so ubiquitous that growth almost

10:22

anywhere. you can produce a

10:24

large crop of potatoes on

10:26

a very small amount of

10:28

land. That's the first thing

10:30

to understand. So the population

10:32

in Ireland was growing very

10:34

rapidly. The. Poor were sub dividing

10:36

their land holdings. They were tenants,

10:38

they didn't own the land. They

10:41

were sub dividing the lands among

10:43

their family members. The

10:45

potato is highly nutritious.

10:47

You. Can keep people not

10:49

only alive but healthy. Own

10:52

potato cultivation. If you

10:54

eat a mouth and people

10:56

at a a lot of

10:58

Potatoes and the Irish population

11:00

before the catastrophe. Was

11:03

poor but healthy. Nobody.

11:06

Could for see what happens. It

11:08

was not in the imagination of

11:10

antibodies that nature could fail to

11:13

that extent. But. The world

11:15

would be turned upside down to

11:17

the point that the entire crop.

11:19

Would. Fail Ireland was. I'm lucky

11:21

because that nobody at the time

11:24

knew what was happening. Not

11:26

until the eighteenth seventeenth. Dead spartan

11:28

of than other scientists. Figure.

11:30

Out what this was. It's

11:32

a fungal infestation. That. Spreads

11:35

through the air and the

11:37

proliferates especially in damp climates.

11:40

Ireland health notoriously down climb

11:42

of. The. Population that was

11:44

of usually dependence on a

11:47

single drop them therefore precarious,

11:49

but nobody knew what was

11:51

happening. The. Poor sometimes blamed

11:53

it on themselves and wondered if

11:55

they had been profligate scenario years

11:58

they observed potatoes to pigs. The

12:00

were so many potatoes. But. The

12:02

rich, the elite also intervene

12:04

to say yes, this is

12:06

God's work. This is the

12:09

stroke of providence to solve

12:11

the Irish question, less let

12:13

history run its course. What?

12:15

Is that Irish question we hear about? What know

12:17

what are you referring to? Overpopulation.

12:20

Poverty. Social.

12:22

Disruption. Agrarian violence

12:24

within the context.

12:27

Of the very heartland of

12:29

the British Empire islands historical

12:32

misfortune as a geographical misfortune

12:34

that happens to be located

12:37

next to the island that

12:39

produced. The. Most powerful and

12:41

extensive empire the world has ever

12:43

seen. Ireland have to be

12:45

conquered on subdued for the security of

12:47

that empire. But. If you have

12:49

that degree of poverty and ultimately a

12:52

fireman at the very heartland, a vampire

12:54

bat is a question that is a

12:56

problem. So. The integration happens

12:59

in the eighteen forties and fifties

13:01

Because of that salmon and and

13:03

death, one million iris were dead

13:05

within five years. Five. Hundred

13:07

Thousand as I understand it moved to

13:09

America. The population of Ireland drops from

13:11

eight point two million in Eighteen Forty

13:13

One to six point two million in

13:15

eighteen Fifty One. Four. Point

13:17

Seven million. In. Not Eighty

13:20

Ninety One. Not the way to

13:22

build a nation. Tax base alone.

13:24

Nevermind a cultural tragedy, the firemen

13:26

is the central events in modern

13:28

Irish history, despite the attempt to

13:30

some revisionist historians to deny that.

13:32

The. Civil War as the the

13:35

central events in modern Us

13:37

history, the firemen and the

13:39

central events in modern Irish

13:41

history. The cultural landscape of

13:43

the Irish is marked by

13:46

that tragedy, the figure of

13:48

the poorhouse, the workhouse homes,

13:50

the Irish imagination until today,

13:52

props, and a more positive

13:55

sense. The Irish people and

13:57

governments are obviously attuned to

13:59

questions. Some colonialism

14:01

and dispossession globally?

14:04

Yeah. The demographics are

14:06

interesting at prior to the famine. Immigrants

14:09

are mostly male. I'll probably young men

14:11

heading out for a new life, but

14:13

then come the salmon years. Lots of

14:15

women, whole family's This is an evacuation,

14:17

not just the young people going out

14:19

on their own. This. Sort

14:21

of lays the groundwork for an

14:23

entirely different kind of immigration than happened

14:26

before where there's a whole kind of

14:28

set up going on. Me, he already

14:30

had the seeds planted because of that

14:33

previous ways, but now there's an entire

14:35

society being built in all directions. Suffer.

14:38

A Exactly correct. So

14:40

most migrations in world

14:43

history begin with Ma'am

14:45

leaving. If you're looking at

14:47

this from his or his point of view, So.

14:50

In the pre farm and generation

14:52

to generation leading up to the

14:54

famine, already one million people. Leave.

14:57

Ireland for North America. So

14:59

mass migration is underway. It's

15:01

about two thirds mail, which

15:03

is the expected potter. During.

15:06

The famine antibody you can

15:08

get out of Ireland get

15:10

silence and so the sex

15:12

ratios become more balanced. The

15:15

firemen in turn on leashes

15:17

a massive wave of emigration

15:19

that continues for the rest

15:21

of the nineteenth century. So.

15:24

That the population of the country is

15:26

reduced to just over four million by

15:28

the or nineteen hundred. It's half thought

15:30

it was on the eve of the

15:32

famine. But what's really striking about the

15:34

post farm and migration and the second

15:36

half of the nineteenth century. Is

15:39

the sex ratios roughly

15:41

half? Of the emigrants where

15:43

women and not only were they

15:45

women, they were unmarried. they were young

15:47

single women which makes it is

15:49

in effect unique. What? Interests

15:51

me there is that, that's.

15:54

Demographic. Pattern prefigures

15:56

international migration in the

15:58

world today. The. The.

16:00

Period since World War Two. Sex.

16:03

Ratios among international migrants are

16:05

equal. Roughly fifty fifty. The

16:08

Irish prefigure that in the

16:10

late nineteenth century, with Irish

16:12

man coming to the United

16:15

States predominantly as laborers. To

16:17

the extent that the American term

16:20

for a laborer was paddy. And

16:22

Irish women coming predominantly else

16:25

domestic servants to the extent

16:27

of the American word for

16:29

a domestic servant was Betty

16:31

are bridget. Tell me about

16:34

the reception that these Irish immigrants receive coming

16:36

out the boats. I mean, how are the

16:38

living conditions? What is this? The general attitude

16:40

towards these immigrants? I mean I'm thinking of

16:42

the know Irish allowed signs in though in

16:45

the windows of New York and Philadelphia. The.

16:47

Irish immigrants who came to the United

16:50

States during the famine era. Where.

16:52

The poorest Europeans.

16:54

That. Americans had ever seen.

16:57

Know. It's a general rule

16:59

in the history of migration that

17:02

the poorest of the poor do

17:04

not leave because they can't have

17:06

scrambled together the resources to leave.

17:09

So during the famine, there's actually

17:11

an inverse ratio between poverty and

17:14

migration of the poorest starve to

17:16

death. Of those slightly above

17:18

them who can scramble to gather

17:20

the resources managed to leave for

17:22

the poorest of the poor in

17:25

Ireland died. And. Others who

17:27

could get out of the country got out

17:29

but poverty as a relative think. Those

17:31

who managed to make it to America weren't

17:33

the poorest of the poor. But.

17:36

They were the poorest and

17:38

most advanced people that most

17:40

Americans had ever seen. Coming

17:42

from Europe the again the

17:45

figures are really important here

17:47

if you lived in New

17:49

York City or Boston. And

17:51

eighteen sixty just after the

17:54

firemen. About half the

17:56

population was foreign born.

17:58

At. Half of those. Foreigners were

18:00

Irish born. Which. Means the

18:03

Irish emigrants are making up one

18:05

quarter of the entire population, and

18:07

that's not even counting their American

18:09

born children, which increases the figure

18:11

closer to one third. So.

18:13

If you are living in New York City

18:15

of Boston, As a

18:17

native born person and you looked

18:19

around to you'll see the Irish

18:22

everywhere. And people did not

18:24

like the Irish. They didn't like

18:26

how they looked. They. Didn't like

18:28

how they dressed. They didn't like

18:30

how they smiled. If they were

18:32

poor, they didn't like the language

18:35

they spoke either. English with an

18:37

accident. Or. Many of

18:39

them were Irish speakers they didn't

18:41

like. There's a social habits how

18:43

they congregate adds up the weekends.

18:46

They didn't like their politics. So.

18:48

There's a big backlash against the Irish

18:50

them And think of the impact on

18:53

the city's. You're living in

18:55

Boston, New York Philadelphia. To think

18:57

of the impact of immigrant poverty.

18:59

It. Provokes a backlash that we

19:02

called nativism. Out as

19:04

actually leads to the formation of

19:06

a political party. Told the

19:08

know nothings the you could say of

19:11

the United States where there are so

19:13

many immigrants. There's all was anti immigrant

19:15

sentiment. But. It's only under

19:18

certain conditions that that

19:20

cultural tantalum translates into

19:22

politics. One. Of them

19:24

as of the items fifties with

19:26

the anti Irish backlash. another is

19:28

today politics of immigration are tightly

19:31

interconnected today. Are Going is

19:33

absolutely in. There are so many contemporary

19:35

reference points for us in this story:

19:38

The tendency for Americans to judge each

19:40

other. You know based on their immigration

19:42

is is you know because all the way

19:44

back but certainly it's really route itself in

19:46

this Irish famine time. But. Every

19:48

time you know we we react the same way

19:50

some of us and it's a a lesson we

19:52

just don't seem to learn. I'm. Interested

19:55

in the fact that there is so

19:57

much infrastructure being built this time? I'm

19:59

that's always the. Using to me in

20:01

all waves of immigration greece later

20:03

he gets Jewish and than the Italian

20:05

and emigrations these become the laborers that

20:08

are being used for this purpose.

20:10

How much as that. A

20:12

designed plan by the government. You.

20:14

Know when you have all these projects and

20:16

is the word put out? We need labor's

20:18

So come on over. That. Is

20:21

true in the twentieth century

20:23

from the Federal government as

20:25

the administrative capacity. To. To

20:27

make plans of that kind of classic

20:29

example would be the but Us our

20:31

own program. In the twentieth

20:34

century when the government's created with

20:36

scheme. For. Temporary contract laborer

20:38

to come from Mexico to the

20:40

United States. and we have such

20:42

schemes today where the government can

20:45

do that. Nineteenth century of much

20:47

more rough and ready. Because.

20:49

Throughout the nineteenth century up

20:51

to the eighteen seventies, the

20:53

Federal government with not actually

20:55

involved in running immigration. In

20:58

the sense of deciding who would be

21:00

a metal excluded or reporters that was

21:02

all done up state level before the

21:05

Civil war and I argue in a

21:07

different context of the reason that for

21:09

that is it has to do with

21:11

slavery. But the points I want to

21:13

make here is that stuff migration was

21:16

controlled by the states, not the federal

21:18

government's and so. To the south

21:20

of the was policy. New. York

21:23

or Massachusetts would pass

21:25

laws say requiring ship

21:28

captains to pay a

21:30

heavy tax. For. Each

21:33

passenger who might become a public

21:35

charms that phrase likely to liable

21:37

to become a public charge of

21:39

goes way back or they might

21:42

require the ship captain to post

21:44

bombs. That would be a be

21:46

redeemable if a passenger became a

21:48

pauper after they arrived. But.

21:51

Know this is important.

21:53

Nobody before the late

21:55

nineteenth century was trying

21:57

to restricts European immigration

21:59

numeric. Really, that's something that starts

22:01

in the late nineteenth century that leads

22:04

to immigration restrictions and the Nineteen twenties.

22:06

People. Didn't like the Irish in the

22:09

middle of the nineteenth century, but nobody

22:11

will find that their numbers should be

22:13

restricted. And in my mind,

22:15

the simplest reason for that is

22:17

that their labor was too important.

22:20

Employers needed. The.

22:22

Irish weather was women to

22:24

work. M M homes of

22:26

servants are to work in

22:28

the emerging factory system. Or.

22:31

Above all they needed men.

22:34

To. Dig and to carry

22:36

and to breaks and to

22:38

do all of the manual

22:40

labor that was involved in

22:42

building the infrastructure of the

22:44

United States. The Irish other

22:46

famous love the story of

22:48

A P. Thompson. Describe

22:51

the Irish says immobile proletarians for

22:53

the Industrial Revolution on both sides

22:55

of the lamp. thick. And.

22:57

Yet they also present kind of a threat

23:00

as in terms of competition for jobs, but

23:02

this also happens with every wave of immigration.

23:04

Not. So much of as the Irish

23:07

as as the Italians later on because

23:09

the a resurgence of dallas but that

23:11

becomes kind of the the reaction. they're

23:13

sort of a push posner. The.

23:15

Classic nativists or anti immigrant line

23:18

is they're working for lower wages.

23:20

they're taking away our jobs of

23:22

them thus expanded into a cultural

23:24

arguments. If they don't like it

23:26

here, why don't they go back

23:28

where they came from of for

23:31

both of the classic native of

23:33

lines. Though. If actually look

23:35

at labor competition. In.

23:37

The history of American immigration.

23:40

Immigrants are always a naps

23:42

aggregate spam offered to the

23:45

economy. They perform jobs that

23:47

other people will not do.

23:49

They. Creates wealth, say

23:51

become socially mobile, But.

23:55

There. Is Labor competition. The

23:57

Labour competition. Usually right.

24:00

The most exploited against the

24:02

most exploiters so the not

24:04

taking away our jobs. But.

24:06

Emigrants compete with other immigrants for

24:09

jobs, and European immigrants compete with

24:11

African Americans for jobs. And that's

24:13

a fact of American history in

24:15

the nineteenth century and the twentieth

24:18

century. So. There is an element

24:20

of truth in the labor competition. Argument,

24:22

but it's usually misplaced. Have

24:25

some In the nineteenth century,

24:27

the Irish are accused by

24:29

organized white labor of under

24:31

cutting their position in society

24:34

of working for lower wages,

24:36

of being use of strikebreakers.

24:39

The. Irish, in turn, level

24:41

exactly the same accusations against

24:43

African Americans and later against

24:46

Chinese immigrants. It's an established

24:48

pattern in American history. I'll

24:53

be back with more American history after this

24:55

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25:31

He. Said

25:33

Spare Cleopatra, Napoleon Sauce or

25:36

do all these people haven't

25:38

commons and on Netflix Series.

25:41

But I have also gone down insisting.

25:45

That to and and first.

25:47

It's enough to make it is pretty

25:50

seamless. Join me journalist on my podcast

25:52

of the Twins to see the his

25:54

to have Sex scandal in Society every

25:56

Tuesday inside A to Head classes. When

26:02

you get your pocket. Books you

26:04

are history has. Either.

26:11

I want to say about a podcast I think

26:13

you'll like. It's called mysteries at the Museum from

26:16

Travel Channel. And. Is narrated by

26:18

me Don Wildman and is direct audio

26:20

from my Tv show Mysteries at the

26:22

Museum. Or mysteries at the

26:24

museum. I travel across the Us to find

26:27

objects that tell shocking stories of American history.

26:29

You'll. Hear about the portrait linked to the

26:31

first bank robbery in American history and about

26:34

the failed invention from World War Two that

26:36

evolved into one of the most popular toys

26:38

for kids. Objects. Carry

26:40

a lot of power. They. Tell

26:42

a story about a person. A place

26:44

where time in history. And. some

26:46

as they just look like ordinary household objects.

26:49

Uncover. The secrets behind these incredible

26:52

objects. And learn about the history

26:54

of war, science, crime and everything

26:56

in between. I think

26:58

alike this podcast because it's telling

27:00

every kind of American story through

27:02

fascinating historical objects. So. Listen to

27:05

mysteries at the museum wherever you get

27:07

your podcasts. It's.

27:12

Important that the sort of midpoint

27:15

understand that the major factor are

27:17

the numbers as as a huge

27:19

amount of people coming into American

27:21

society at once, this is it.

27:23

Completely unique to this point and

27:25

will be forever. I suppose as

27:27

a result, it's changing American society.

27:29

There are huge reactions to the

27:32

Irish. Unlike most people, one of

27:34

those judgments is that they're dirty

27:36

on their diseased. There's a famous

27:38

story known as Typhoid Mary or

27:40

she was a house o'clock in.

27:42

The houses typhus was a huge problem.

27:45

so A Cholera These diseases had nothing

27:47

to do with the iris. A was

27:49

concentrations of population, it was impoverished conditions.

27:51

This particular woman type is Mary, carries

27:54

a typist with her and therefore is

27:56

blame for spreading the disease. She is

27:58

good. The A some infractions I must

28:00

say, but it's a big sort of

28:03

portrait of how the Irish were in

28:05

general perceived. Soda. Typhoid

28:07

Mary was guilty of some

28:09

infractions seek out have behave

28:12

differently but really heard case

28:14

becomes a metaphor for the

28:16

nativists reaction to the Irish

28:19

on the grounds of their

28:21

poverty. And disease and

28:23

remember poverty and disease or the

28:26

to prevailing attributes of the farm

28:28

and migration. Starving bodies

28:30

are are crossing the

28:32

Atlantic under unsanitary conditions.

28:34

So within the larger

28:36

framework of what we

28:38

call native of them

28:40

are anti immigrant sentiment.

28:43

Ah, Historians, a lockouts.

28:45

Medical nativism, Out there

28:47

is a book by the historian Alum

28:50

Crowds. Cold. Silence. Travelers.

28:53

Which. Looks at how anti

28:55

immigrant sentiment is connected to

28:57

fear of poverty. Fair about

29:00

hygiene? fair, About to these.

29:03

Again, this is a deep

29:05

rooted traditions in the United

29:07

States and resurface during the

29:09

covance pandemic with the labeling

29:11

of the virus as the

29:14

China Virus. So again this

29:16

is something that is like familiar

29:18

turf. Unfortunately we can have a

29:20

similar conversation with many different races.

29:22

In. American History and their entry into

29:25

American Society. right? Up to today.

29:27

As you say, I want to focus down

29:29

on the labels Know nothing party. And.

29:31

That whole phenomenon because we have

29:33

crossed that pass a lot of

29:35

times on his podcast series and

29:37

yet we've never really associate directly

29:39

with The Iris. Were talking about

29:42

Eighteen Fifty Four Millard Fillmore Time.

29:44

This is that period before the

29:46

Civil War. The reaction to

29:48

the Iris immigration is central to the

29:50

creation of the American Party also known

29:52

as the Know Nothing Party. Why is

29:54

that? So. Nativism, anti immigrant

29:56

sentiment is a constant force,

29:59

and America. No straight to

30:01

the extent that the United States

30:03

is the largest receiving country for

30:05

emigrants in the world. It. Also

30:07

allows an anti immigrant tradition. Under.

30:10

Certain circumstances. That.

30:14

Cultural prejudice against emigrants

30:16

which resurfaces and American

30:18

history. Can. Be translated

30:20

into a political force. It

30:23

doesn't always happen that happens

30:25

under certain circumstances. That.

30:27

In fifties, the United States

30:29

entered a political crisis over

30:32

slavery. Slavery destroyed

30:34

the existing party system. the

30:36

two party system of wigs

30:39

and democrats. The. Whig party

30:41

completely collapsed after eight and fifty

30:43

two. And into

30:46

the political vacuum stabbed

30:48

and new potential. Seconds.

30:51

Party in opposition to the to

30:53

the Democrats. And that was

30:56

the American party or know nothing

30:58

party. So. It's third division

31:00

over slavery. the the looming

31:02

crisis over slavery that creates

31:04

the political conditions. For. The

31:07

emergence of a new political party. And.

31:09

Briefly between Eight and Fifty Four And

31:12

Eight And Fifty six. It

31:14

looks as though that party. Will.

31:16

Be an explicitly anti immigrant

31:19

party. The. Know nothings.

31:21

I got the As originated as

31:23

a secret society. Of the

31:25

answer if somebody else to what

31:27

you know about that organization the

31:29

answers I know nothing. To.

31:31

That's that the origin of the term.

31:34

You might think that know nothing equates

31:36

with ignorance and you can say that

31:38

to ask for the know what the

31:40

know nothings were saying they were saying

31:42

i know nothing to and of these

31:44

distinctive. Political. Conditions: It

31:46

looked for a while as though

31:48

an anti immigrant party because there

31:50

were so many immigrants on immigration

31:52

was becoming this big political cause.

31:54

The contact through it was there

31:56

for they might actually be come

31:58

out The leading. Rt an opposition

32:01

to the Democrats. But. That

32:03

know nothing party could not

32:05

holds it's southern and northern

32:08

wings together. Because. In

32:10

the south where there were few emigrants,

32:12

The. Issue was pro Slavery

32:14

in the North. Where. There

32:17

are many immigrants. The

32:19

party was both anti immigrant, anti

32:21

slavery, those the coalition that couldn't

32:23

hold together out of the ruins

32:26

of that attempt. Merged

32:28

a new party. With. A different

32:30

agenda. The Republican Party. Which.

32:33

Run for election and Eighteen

32:35

Fifty Six and actually displaced

32:37

the Know Nothings became the

32:39

second party a single issue

32:41

sectional party based on anti

32:43

slavery And in Eighteen Sixty,

32:46

the Republicans still with a

32:48

small native of heritage with

32:50

that will say then became

32:52

the dominant party and electives

32:54

Abraham Lincoln. It's. All underscored

32:56

by their oath that that was

32:59

required of inductees and I'll quote,

33:01

elects to all offices This would

33:03

have been the questions for admittance

33:05

to the American party, elect to

33:07

all offices of honor, profit or

33:09

trust No one but native born

33:12

citizens of America of this country,

33:14

to the exclusion of all foreigners,

33:16

and to all Roman Catholics whether

33:18

they be of native or foreign

33:20

birth, regardless of all party predilections.

33:22

Whatever. it is so extraordinary. To.

33:25

See this. This theme, you know

33:27

trace it's way through American society

33:29

to today. Not quite as extreme

33:31

as that, obviously. but but we

33:33

are still dealing with this was

33:35

with these themes. In our present

33:38

election. We. Are Daves an Alibi.

33:40

Columns on both. I want to

33:42

just highlight that phrase Catholics and

33:44

the passage you read because. Foreigners.

33:47

Are bad enough. But. Foreign born

33:49

Catholics are the worst. So remember, there

33:51

were other immigrants coming into the United

33:54

States at this time, many of them

33:56

from England. They're kind of the invisible

33:58

immigrants. The from Germany,

34:01

some of whom are protestant, some

34:03

of them were Catholic to the

34:05

real targets of the know nothings

34:07

as the Irish because they're not

34:10

just foreign born, but they're Catholic.

34:12

Why does that matter? The Net:

34:14

The nativist accusation. Is. That

34:16

Catholics counts a bigot. Americans,

34:18

they owe their allegiance to

34:20

the Pope in Rome. They

34:22

take their orders from the

34:25

priests in the puppets. They

34:27

vote accordingly. They're opposed to

34:29

the great reform movements of

34:31

the time, whether anti slavery

34:33

or probation, or the public

34:35

school system. Of husband

34:37

cybernetic accurately. That. Anti

34:40

Catholicism remains the

34:42

one intellectually respectable

34:44

form of bigotry.

34:46

In American Life until Nineteen

34:48

Sixty. John. F. Kennedy when

34:51

he ran for president, declared that

34:53

he was not the Catholic candidates

34:55

for president. He was the Democratic

34:57

Party candidate for President who happened

34:59

to be a Catholic and I

35:01

think he lays that goes to

35:03

rest. No such questions are asked

35:05

about Joe Biden. Bot.

35:07

The questioning of the credentials

35:10

and bonus a days of

35:12

foreign born people to become

35:14

American citizens is alive and

35:16

well on with us today.

35:19

Which. Strangely coincidental, and I really don't think

35:21

it's anything more than that is that. Each.

35:23

One of these immigration crises or

35:25

controversies anyway is followed by the

35:27

military. Endeavor. it seems it's a weird

35:30

thing that happens. You've got the Civil War after.

35:32

The. Irish famine. You've got. The World War

35:35

Two follows after enormous amounts of immigration

35:37

in the early twentieth century. Right now,

35:39

we're dealing with the Ukraine and and

35:41

it's implications for American security. And we've

35:43

been dealing with immigration now. It's is

35:45

strangely hand in hand, isn't it? It

35:47

is. I can only say that

35:49

thankfully history does not repeat itself.

35:51

There are no Molson history because

35:53

of their where we could connect

35:55

the dots them to very bleak

35:57

future. So many Irish speak.

36:00

The policemen and firemen and

36:02

civil servants in general explain

36:04

that phenomenon. Jobs. And

36:07

public service were amazingly good

36:09

jobs in the nineteenth century.

36:11

So the prevailing miss him

36:13

Irish American historiography is that

36:15

the Irish were so discriminated

36:18

against on arrival that they

36:20

showed no signs of social

36:22

mobility for for several generations.

36:24

and I don't think historians

36:26

agree with that on the

36:29

more. We. We do

36:31

not deny the Council prejudice

36:33

against the Irish, the anti

36:36

Catholicism, the class prejudice, The.

36:38

Rest of it we do not deny that

36:41

native of were big of. But. At

36:43

the same time, there is

36:45

considerable social mobility among Irish

36:47

people. really. starting with the

36:49

famine generation, you have to

36:52

understand thugs most of the

36:54

Irish who came lacked marketable

36:56

skills. You can. You

36:58

can't be a carpenter unless you train them.

37:00

The prime soft to be a carpenter. I.

37:02

Couldn't get a job as a carpenter that

37:05

the table would fall apart if if I

37:07

have tried to build a table right. But

37:09

the point is that the second generation. Trained.

37:12

A skilled workers and they took

37:14

jobs and public service. As

37:17

first responders that were extremely goods

37:19

jobs and romain extreme good jobs

37:21

and of of so the Irish

37:24

found a nice. In. Those

37:26

areas and although the

37:28

prejudice remains. Of within

37:31

a couple of generations, with

37:33

a striking signs and social

37:35

mobility among the Irish. Here's

37:37

the irony: The most Irish

37:39

places in the United States?

37:41

Let's take South Boston as

37:43

an extreme example. Are. The

37:46

ones for social mobility is most

37:48

restrictive of they are most associated

37:50

with Irishness The further west you

37:52

go and that starts even in

37:55

Philadelphia which is our and them

37:57

move west from there the battle

37:59

the Irish do especially in the

38:01

nineteenth century which was the white

38:04

man's country. Well. Those are the

38:06

good guys. and then there's the questionable ones

38:08

who end up in our lives of crime

38:10

which is have a very real thing for

38:12

the Irish mafia, they caused by the all

38:14

kinds of other sorts. This also happens in

38:17

the later part of the nineteenth century. The.

38:19

Beginnings of a famous Iris Gangs dumb

38:21

Five Points in New York. But

38:24

it's unique, isn't it? It's It's like

38:26

the Italian becomes much more embedded in

38:28

the community and real part of it,

38:31

I suppose. Yes, I think so. I

38:33

mean, what's striking about the Irish immigrants

38:35

is that they are what we call

38:38

urban pioneers. If you stop the clock,

38:40

say, and eighteenth seventeenth. You. Find

38:42

the three quarters of

38:44

Americans live. In is

38:46

that of the countryside or and very

38:49

small towns. But. Three quarters of

38:51

the Irish live in cities, towns,

38:53

and industrial cat counties are much

38:55

more urbanized. Them the population of

38:58

the whole they sat the pattern

39:00

them for Jews and Italians who

39:02

come later. And so

39:04

that that particular form of

39:06

criminality that you're referring to

39:08

a really as a big

39:10

city American phenomenon? I'm yeah,

39:12

this is Irish American history,

39:14

warts and all. The difference

39:17

between crime and politics is hard

39:19

to discern. The nineteenth Century take

39:21

Tammany Hall right. Plunkett. Of

39:24

Tammany Hall as the famous line hit hit

39:26

his one of the the ball says in

39:28

the early twentieth century and health is famous

39:30

line. Tommy hoping that Democratic

39:32

party machine and New York and

39:34

his line as I say my

39:37

opportunities and I took him. I

39:39

say my opportunities and I took him.

39:41

He had a concept of what he

39:43

called almost graft. So. If

39:46

you got opportunity to build the

39:48

city and the taxpayers for the

39:50

greater good writers the know welfare

39:52

state is still helping people. From

39:54

trying to sound very and wanna be

39:56

pretty stupid not to take those opportunities

39:59

that it has. they will tongue

40:01

in cheek our bodies tapping into

40:03

something importance of their about these

40:05

rough and ready pre welfare states.

40:09

Urban settings for immigrants and

40:11

their descendants did favor dispensed

40:13

waivers and kept the system

40:15

are running an affair to

40:18

corrupt but effective way. There's

40:20

an extraordinary chapter of a group called

40:22

the Molly Mcguire it's which is it's

40:24

own podcast episode for sure, but I'm

40:26

curious where they fit into that story.

40:29

Molly requires are an extreme case, but

40:31

a very revealing case. So what happened

40:34

in the eighties seventies? as that twenty.

40:36

Irish immigrant workers were

40:39

hanged. They. Went to the

40:41

scaffold in Pennsylvania and they were

40:43

accused. Of having killed

40:45

sixteen people mind bosses

40:47

and superintendents and public

40:49

officials. Under the cover

40:52

of a secret society? Directly.

40:54

Imported from the Irish countryside. Thoughts

40:56

one of the grapes. A dramatic

40:59

tales on I would say conspiracy

41:01

theories in the annals of American

41:03

labor. An immigration. And I

41:05

actually had written a book on bad and

41:08

which I tried to disentangle the the fact

41:10

from the fantasy. Out we

41:12

very little evidence from the Molly

41:14

Mcguire themselves whoever they were by

41:16

what they are up to with

41:18

lots of evidence from the native

41:20

of the anti Catholic, the critics

41:22

of organized labor, Who broke

41:25

the movements? But at the

41:27

same time it is clear

41:29

that certain exploited Irish mine

41:31

workers used violence as a

41:33

tactic to fight back against

41:36

or exploitation Because twenty twenty

41:38

men were hanged. But. At

41:40

the end of the story, there were sixteen other

41:42

dead bodies on the stage. Of

41:44

somebody killed them and five.

41:47

I've tried to figure out

41:49

how under desperate conditions. Are

41:52

certain immigrant workers would use violence

41:54

as a tactic and labor disputes

41:56

to be clear, as the historian

41:59

or not. Into either condemn our

42:01

justify what happens in Pennsylvania at that

42:03

time. I'm just trying to understand us.

42:05

Are you curse yourself work or come

42:07

back around for that story later on

42:10

down the road? Hell yes sir. As

42:12

we approached the twentieth century, one of

42:14

the big things it's happening is that

42:16

the boiling up of the troubles back

42:18

home. How does this affect this mass

42:21

amount of people in the United States?

42:23

How does this scale begin to tip

42:25

one way or the other. So

42:27

the period of The Troubles in Northern

42:30

Ireland's A you could think of. It

42:32

almost doesn't. Internal Civil war. Now the

42:34

last. From Nineteen Sixty Eight to Ninety

42:36

Ninety Eight, Thirty Years of Conflict, it's

42:39

immensely important is it to the Irish

42:41

in the United States. Irish

42:43

American nationalism. Goes. A

42:46

long way back down. By that

42:48

term, I mean the involvement by

42:50

people love Irish origin or to

42:53

Sams and the United States. In

42:55

the affairs of the homeland that goes way

42:57

back to the Fenian this other groups in

43:00

the nineteenth century. So. A

43:02

lot of Irish Americans were

43:04

deeply engaged with of the

43:07

conflict known as the Troubles.

43:09

And as with any expression

43:12

of Irish nationalism that goes

43:14

across a spectrum. From.

43:16

Peaceful, moderate constitutional

43:19

change. Which. Is eventually

43:21

what happened with the Good Friday agreement.

43:24

Too. Much more radical

43:26

extremist forms of nationalism.

43:28

That. Go under the heading of Physical

43:31

Force Republican of. In

43:33

other words, trying to achieve

43:35

an independent, fully united Ireland's

43:37

through whatever means necessary include

43:39

including violence. Irish Americans

43:41

are items across the

43:44

spectrum. Of some very

43:46

prominent political figures at the Moderate

43:48

and and from very committed hardline

43:50

Segars at the X Ray bans

43:53

I will say this the settlements

43:55

of the conflict in Northern Ireland's

43:58

was brought about. To. Directly

44:00

through American involvement of the

44:02

highest level with Clinton that

44:04

Mitchell and many others, they

44:06

would not have happened without

44:08

the American input. But. Here's

44:10

a question: Irish America today.

44:13

Lacks two things:

44:16

That. Sustains the community and

44:18

the identity for more than

44:20

the century. The. First,

44:22

his continued immigration.

44:25

Very. Few Irish people are coming to

44:27

the United States today in a context

44:29

where only four percent of all immigrants

44:31

come from Western Europe. idiots

44:34

is used to be ninety percent,

44:36

but secondly and the absence of

44:38

an animated political cove. Because.

44:41

The animating political coals for thirty

44:43

years was the problem of. So.

44:46

If you remove emigration and you

44:48

remove that unifying political goals, cook

44:50

breakfast doesn't quite do it. It's

44:52

too abstract. And. Then

44:54

a lot of people are begin

44:57

to wonder. Oh well, for

44:59

does that mean. To have

45:01

it's a their thirty five or forty

45:03

three million. Americans self identifying

45:06

of Irish? What does that mean?

45:08

What's the substances that symbolic. Are.

45:11

Real and above all, what's the

45:13

future? What's the ship? The future

45:15

of Irish America, absent immigration and

45:17

a unifying political cove. Knots

45:20

of At is kind of moving towards

45:22

the American ideal. I say, you know

45:24

that's that The notion. Any way that

45:26

we all become part of one mean

45:28

on the steaks get lower for us

45:30

as we become more Americanized through generations

45:32

is the idea. Of the

45:34

practice with previous and within

45:36

groups without question in the

45:38

census today you're invited to

45:40

answer the question who are

45:42

you to do you identify

45:44

with Most of the big

45:47

groups that solicitor our that

45:49

answer are German Americans, Mexican

45:51

Americans, Irish, Americans, African Americans,

45:53

Italian American. see a huge

45:55

figures but what does that

45:57

actually mean If you I

45:59

det. You self identify of the

46:01

sons who says Irish American? You're not

46:04

saying that you have for Irish grandparents

46:06

necessarily, are not saying it's entirely in

46:08

the blood. Whatever that could mean. You're.

46:11

Just saying: this is an

46:13

elective and I choose to

46:15

identify as Iris Know that

46:17

translates into enormous political power.

46:20

Because. The figure changes whether you call

46:22

a thirty five million or forty three million.

46:25

That. Is between one that

46:27

and one tenth of the

46:29

entire population and it's a

46:31

higher among the voting population.

46:33

And so this becomes very important every

46:35

two years, and especially every four years.

46:37

I think we're in the midst of

46:40

have a great reassessment of this Americanism

46:42

idea. You know, because it really does

46:44

cross political lines. It really does serve

46:46

a function in the world. Certainly, Se

46:48

Na Mclean people can prove lives by

46:50

by immigrating. And. I really think

46:52

that where it might have been viewed

46:54

as corny a few decades ago, it's

46:57

actually reemerging now as as something that

46:59

needs to be reconsidered as an important

47:01

factor in the world and our role

47:03

in it. really. I think it is.

47:05

I agree with you and at the

47:08

same time I'm not sure that ethnicity

47:10

and assimilation are in competition with each

47:12

other, that they're mutually contradictory because the

47:14

pattern and the United States for emigrants

47:17

was. You. Didn't become American,

47:19

You became Irish American. He.

47:21

Became Italian American. You became Jewish

47:23

American. So in a sense, acquiring

47:25

and ethnic identity was a precondition

47:28

for assimilating. unless you're Anglo, unless

47:30

you belong to the Anglo core.

47:33

We don't say English American. And

47:35

that and that's very important. It's a it's

47:38

an urban phenomenon in the Northeastern in the

47:40

mid West. And it translates

47:42

into. Something. Real and

47:44

tangible Ill when Joe Biden identifies

47:46

with Irish America. Sure, his reaching

47:49

out to the Irish American votes,

47:51

but it means an awful lot

47:53

more to him than laughs. This

47:55

is something real and substantial that

47:58

even if he welcomes run. For

48:00

president would actually be central to

48:02

his identity As an American. He

48:05

doesn't regard the. The. Hyphen

48:07

between Irish and America

48:09

joins rather than divides

48:11

from that perspective. It

48:13

seems to me that the the

48:15

great dilemma will be are we

48:17

American by arm culture you know,

48:19

by our our identities or are

48:22

we American by our economic class?

48:24

Yeah, Enzo. These are historic seems

48:26

that have been on boiled up

48:28

since the early nineteenth century. Really

48:30

as soon as Americans began making

48:32

money a realize that that was

48:34

a cause they believed in. The

48:36

political crisis on both sides of

48:38

the Atlantic In the Anglo American

48:40

world is all about Clausen Inequality.

48:42

Too many people's. Opportunities blocked. but

48:45

in that context today on

48:47

historically. Immigrants become a

48:49

convenient scapegoat. Nativism is all

48:51

about scapegoating. It's finding. A.

48:54

Different answer to the real

48:56

problem. The real problem isn't

48:58

immigration? Immigrants are evolved of

49:00

the scapegoat. Kevin. Kenny

49:02

is Glucksmann Professor of History at N Y

49:05

U. New York University. I have a list

49:07

of books here, which will take too long

49:09

to go through, but I'll give you a

49:11

few titles. Making sense of the Molly requires

49:13

The American Irish a history. Peaceable,

49:16

Kingdom Lost, the Paxton Boys of Destruction

49:18

and I'm really only halfway down a

49:20

list of articles and and and publications.

49:22

He is the President of the Immigration

49:25

and Ethnic History Society, and as distinguish

49:27

lecture of the Organization of American Historians.

49:29

A distinguished career indeed sir. Thank you

49:31

very much for joining us. Will be

49:34

bringing you back if that's okay with

49:36

you. Yes Daves, thank you so much.

49:38

Don't. A

49:41

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