0:00

My mother died in the concentration camp,

0:02

seemingly eight years old that time. Well,

0:05

she was not activist. She was not

0:08

politician. She was just a horse vibe,

0:10

but brave woman. In 1997,

0:12

the Chinese regime labeled Uyghur human

0:15

rights activist Dolcunisa a criminal and

0:17

put him on Interpol's list of

0:19

most dangerous fugitives. After

0:21

9-11, they added another label,

0:24

terrorists. I was detained in so

0:26

many countries, Germany, United States, Italy,

0:29

India, Turkey, is what's

0:31

happening in the free world,

0:33

not in an authoritarian regime. He's

0:35

the author of China Freedom Trap,

0:38

My Life on the Run. In

0:40

this episode, he exposes the harrowing

0:42

long arm of Chinese transnational repression.

0:44

A couple of years ago, my

0:47

son, my daughter, sitting together, chatting,

0:49

saying, Do you know, father, no, I'm

0:51

proud of you. But 10

0:55

years ago, even five, six years ago,

0:57

I hate you because

0:59

we had faced a

1:02

lot of discrimination. Oh, this is your father?

1:04

Yes, your father

1:06

is terrorists? My children

1:08

couldn't explain. This is

1:10

American Thought Leaders, and I'm Jan Jekielek.

1:14

Dolcunisa, such a pleasure to

1:17

have you on American Thought Leaders. Thank you very

1:19

much. It's my pleasure. Well,

1:21

it's really my pleasure. And

1:24

you've written an astonishingly good

1:26

book that I think will

1:29

tell us a lot about the

1:31

realities of life under

1:33

the thumb of Communist China. You

1:35

called it actually the China Freedom

1:38

Trap. Tell me why you

1:40

chose this name. Well, it

1:42

is a good question, of course. And this

1:46

book is not my biography. It

1:48

is my personal experience.

1:53

I have been faced by

1:55

the Chinese Communist Party, transnational

1:57

repression. And this is all

1:59

my experience. in the book I have

2:02

written is what's happening in

2:04

the free world, not in an

2:07

authoritarian regime, for example, Central Asia or

2:09

some other country. I

2:11

was detained so many countries. This

2:13

country all the democratic countries, Germany,

2:16

United States, Italy, for

2:18

example, India and

2:20

Turkey, Sri Lanka, Sri Sri Lanka, Sri

2:23

Sri Lanka. So that's why I

2:26

give this name, the China

2:28

Freedom Trap. It's happening

2:30

in the free country. So I would

2:32

like to share

2:34

my experience to warn the world, look, if

2:38

I'm the citizen of the democratic

2:40

countries, I'm living in

2:42

the free world, but still

2:45

I have been subject and

2:47

suffering by the CCP, long

2:50

arm. So that's why I give this

2:52

name of this book. That's very,

2:54

that's amazing. And I mean, you, when

2:56

you talk about long arm, it's

2:59

long arm over decades. Yeah. You know,

3:01

and you mentioned a term called transnational

3:03

repression. And you hear that in human

3:06

rights circles. I've been hearing it for

3:08

decades myself. What does that actually mean?

3:12

Well, this actually means in the

3:14

one country, particularly in an

3:17

authoritarian country, use

3:19

it as power, use

3:21

international system, use

3:23

it as diplomatic power, economic

3:25

power and misuse international system

3:28

to trying to control

3:30

people who are living in diaspora

3:33

or asylum seeker. And

3:36

also same time, this transnational

3:39

repression also destroyed

3:41

and in the civil society or

3:43

the democratic society and also trying

3:46

to influence the rule of law. Yeah,

3:50

this is the my understanding. I'm not

3:52

expert for the term, but I'm always

3:54

a person who Suffering by

3:57

the transnational repression. Right. Yes. Well, no, so

3:59

you are an. Or it actually

4:01

be as aggressive area instead as

4:03

is as I mean he did

4:05

this start we are whole story

4:07

started in Nineteen Eighty Eight. long

4:09

story yes and it but would

4:11

tell me that tell me about

4:13

that Now while I was a

4:15

stood in some nineteen eighties I

4:17

i i study says he says

4:20

Young University is a physics department

4:22

the full I attempt to sit

4:24

around and Young University a. Many

4:27

we were like me and even

4:29

more myself to. See

4:32

it. We lost his second class

4:34

citizen inside the tunnel. visas and

4:36

not excellent. I didn't have a

4:38

lot more idea what kind of

4:40

like this half always And off

4:43

we are. Sick and the glass?

4:45

nice. It's not seller equal. Equal rights

4:47

is. A Chinese people this is the

4:49

most of them people's and collide with. Us.

4:51

As a service that have never. Enjoying.

4:53

Equality particularly of puppies and by

4:55

the tens calmness of party him

4:57

and before titans go missive but the

5:00

common than time or solid of

5:02

discrimination. And also months waiting for

5:04

your time or browse the supreme. A

5:06

lot of the many is so. That's

5:08

like but then I Temple University sides

5:10

they. Do or then and the.

5:13

Scenes. In my mind because

5:15

the everyone is it. Often

5:18

of the have a political class. He

5:20

said. His political class sometimes.

5:22

The learn and signs Constitution

5:24

and the Autonomous Law. Or.

5:27

View He returns for the citizens.

5:29

Of the scene junk. We were uttered on

5:31

the low we sell a lot

5:33

of like for example we were

5:36

language is a first language and

5:38

same a level important as a

5:40

Chinese language and that while is

5:43

called full lean politically be helped

5:45

a lot of right Well. He's

5:48

his seat on the paper is on the consider.

5:50

some become a lot of what why be not

5:52

enjoying this but if. You look at. Is.

5:54

A Daily Life. Vs have

5:57

had ceased a lot of

5:59

discrimination. This. the turning point in

6:01

my mind, you know, then I

6:05

thought any right not

6:08

given to you, themself. You have

6:10

to demine it. You

6:12

have to fight for this. And

6:18

most of the Uyghurs, they

6:20

don't know what

6:22

kind of right they have. But you

6:24

have to educate them. More than 70

6:27

percent Uyghur

6:30

is unalphabetic.

6:33

Because 80 percent Uyghur living

6:35

in the rural area,

6:37

farmer. There is no

6:39

schools. So people couldn't read.

6:42

If the people in the

6:45

territory cannot read, cannot write,

6:48

and they don't understand what kind of right.

6:50

So that's why I was

6:52

thinking, okay, first step we have

6:54

to educate those people. To

6:57

teach them alphabet. Then

6:59

we educated people. We have

7:01

equal right with some other

7:03

Chinese people. And

7:05

then we demine our right. Constitutional

7:08

right, autonomous right. This is my

7:10

opinion. And I discuss my colleague,

7:12

my friend, that we established Students

7:16

Cultural Scientist Unit. We

7:18

mobilize thousands of students during the summer

7:20

and winter holidays. Voluntarily

7:23

went to the rural

7:26

area, farmer, and teaching. But

7:29

we are really start of

7:31

activity. Then we have faced

7:33

a lot of barriers. A

7:36

lot of problems. Why? Why don't you

7:38

understand? What? All

7:40

the paper, all the constitution. Then

7:42

we have did anything

7:45

against the Chinese constitution of policy.

7:48

But we didn't want to increase them or

7:50

education level. So 1988 then

7:55

we had five or debate with

7:58

a high level Chinese communist. party

8:00

leadership in the

8:02

Xinjiang, the Grazhomsri region, party

8:07

secretary, he was there, minister

8:09

of education, and

8:12

minister of finance, minister

8:14

of planning committee. Wow. Yeah,

8:17

we had five hours debate, you know, we

8:19

had talked a lot, but

8:22

we couldn't compromise, and I

8:24

returned to the university, and

8:27

we hold who, and

8:29

the big protest meeting, and

8:32

against discrimination policy. We

8:35

demand equal rights, we

8:37

against discrimination, we

8:40

demand democratic elections, and

8:43

we protest and

8:46

family planning policy, one

8:48

child policy, and also we,

8:51

and asking the government to stop

8:53

nuclear testing, because China's government, from

8:56

1964 until 1996, more than 46

8:59

times nuclear weapon

9:03

test in the Lopnar area, because

9:06

of this huge Uyghurs, and

9:08

was died, and

9:11

the natural disease, quite

9:13

a lot of young babies

9:16

were born on a disability,

9:18

you know, so that's why you have to stop. This

9:20

is the one issue also, nuclear,

9:23

stop nuclear testing, it

9:25

is the international action, you know, that

9:27

time, because of the world peace. So

9:30

and I was a host artist, I

9:33

was a host artist, up the days, and then

9:35

we took the demonstration, went to the street, more

9:39

than 5,000 people, then that night I

9:41

was host artist, for

9:44

more than four months, then

9:46

I was a keycote from the university, so

9:48

that's why I was not able to graduate

9:50

university, so this discrimination exists

9:52

all the time, you know, some

9:56

people, some people thought,

9:58

oh, this we will probably, just

10:00

started since 2016, 2017. Very

10:04

new, it's not true. This

10:07

problem exists all the time.

10:11

All the levels are different, changing.

10:14

Particularly Xi Jinping talks about power

10:16

since 2013, 2014. This

10:20

China's government policy against

10:23

Uyghur discrimination, assimilation policy,

10:26

into change, into genocidal

10:28

policy. Yes. Before

10:30

no concentration camp. Yes. Before

10:33

not in the million Uyghur children

10:35

separate from family. But

10:39

education level, daily level,

10:41

we have face discrimination.

10:44

So, and then

10:47

we will start in 1988, this demonstration,

10:49

I was kick off from the university.

10:52

This is the short

10:55

story on my activism. Right.

10:58

Well, before

11:00

I continue with your story, because a

11:02

big part of your story is how

11:05

this arm of the CCP

11:08

just followed you wherever you went

11:10

in life afterwards. It's absolutely fascinating.

11:13

Before we go there, I want to talk about this. So,

11:17

you know, we know what happened in 89 in

11:19

Tiananmen Square, it was a student movement. And

11:22

afterwards, right, China

11:25

under the CCP got the message from

11:27

the US and from other countries, that

11:31

actually we're not going to worry about that

11:33

so much. Right. That's

11:35

my observation. Then in

11:37

1999, they started persecuting the

11:39

Falun Gong. Yes. And then they

11:42

get the same message. Yes. You know, we're

11:44

not really going to worry about that so much. And with

11:46

the Tibetans, same situation, even

11:48

after 2008, after the big

11:50

demonstration by the Tibetans, they really tried

11:53

to smash that movement, right? Yes. Through

11:56

the transnational depression. Yes. So,

11:58

and still, I think, I don't see

12:01

many countries really being too concerned about

12:04

this. My theory

12:07

is that that's what escalated. Of

12:09

course Uyghurs have been persecuted the

12:11

whole time. But then, once

12:13

we get to 2014, 2015, 2016, they get this extreme solution.

12:22

But I think if the world had responded

12:25

to these other persecutions before in a

12:28

meaningful way, maybe this would never have

12:30

happened. I don't know what your thoughts are. Yes, I

12:32

completely agree with you. Chinese

12:34

government is not coming to

12:36

this level. Today Chinese government

12:38

commit genocide against Uyghur cultural

12:40

genocide, so the Tibet, and

12:42

persecution following on practice and

12:44

also human rights defenders, human

12:46

rights lawyers in China, you

12:49

know, today, Taiwan and the

12:51

dangerous by the CCP. Hong

12:53

Kong democracy disappeared. This is

12:55

all not coming within one day, as you

12:57

say, step by step, step by step, step

13:00

by step. China testing the world.

13:02

For example, for the Uyghur prospect, and

13:05

after Xi Jinping talked about this

13:08

in 2013, and

13:12

in 2014, first step he

13:14

launched one year Stochard campaign. Yes,

13:17

Stochard campaign. Well, we

13:19

made statement, we're doing

13:21

advocacy work, UN made

13:24

statement, the criminal rights council,

13:26

and my colleague visiting the

13:28

congressmen or senators or

13:30

state department, she's listening to us.

13:34

Same thing. I travel to

13:36

the world, the European country, we're talking this.

13:39

Oh, okay. You know, it's very

13:41

soft-reacted. Actually, no

13:43

one really strong takes

13:46

the position for this. And

13:48

Xi Jinping said, oh, okay, I'm strong

13:50

enough. Entire world needs my

13:53

money. Now I'm

13:55

strong enough power, so

13:57

I can't do anything. 2016,

14:02

start 2014-15 for example,

14:05

today is the Ramadan, you know, people

14:08

cannot fasten, yeah

14:10

cannot fasten. This start 2014-15, for them fasten

14:12

and also normally

14:17

during the Ramadan time Uyghurs

14:20

is a restaurant was closed until

14:23

dinner time,

14:25

the break in Ramadan. Then

14:28

you have to open the restaurant, you have

14:30

to display, you have to sell the cigarette and

14:32

the alcohol and

14:35

remove the halal sign from

14:38

the restaurant. Just the

14:40

testing, not single reaction from

14:42

the Muslim word, any

14:44

religious entity, oh

14:47

okay then next step and 2017 is collected

14:52

all Quran and textbook, textbook

14:54

you know. So no

14:56

single reaction from the

14:59

Muslim world and Xi Jinping

15:01

thought okay and it's

15:04

good. Then testing

15:06

wisdom word, collected passport

15:09

for example, kept shut on the

15:11

internet, you

15:14

cannot call on family members,

15:18

no reaction. A few women write to

15:20

Ojang, it is some international organization just

15:23

published report or statement but

15:26

not the country is a

15:29

UN, nearly no country

15:31

is reacted for this and

15:33

Xi Jinping said ha okay then

15:36

and it puts million people to

15:38

concentration camp. Before this as

15:40

you said and the

15:42

following going and

15:44

it was cracked on by

15:47

China, this time also okay,

15:50

some country speaking of their very

15:52

empty statement but

15:54

we have never seen real

15:56

action against the Chinese government, not warning for

15:58

the Chinese. This is all in

16:01

China. I'm

16:03

enough strong. Nobody think that

16:05

is 19 2016 is shock. 2019

16:09

is a Hong Kong democracy movement. That's

16:11

right. Yes, this is international

16:14

Commission. According to the

16:16

International Convention on Hong Kong's democracy is the

16:19

102 system. It shouldn't

16:21

be not be changed until 50 years.

16:24

But you have seen up

16:26

to more than 20 years later change everything.

16:29

So this is the this

16:32

is the solution because you

16:34

really international arena

16:38

or particularly democratic country just

16:41

ignored it. Yeah, because of

16:43

temporary benefit because of some money because

16:45

of the business, you know, because

16:47

of business and it's a

16:50

one things I have to emphasize and

16:52

the China know is

16:54

second big economy. But

16:58

can you mean massacre time 1980 is

17:00

beginning of 1990. Yes,

17:03

that time is China was not second big

17:05

economy. China need this

17:08

in technology. It's right this the money

17:10

listing investment. So that

17:12

time up to 10 a.m. and Masaka in

17:15

the US and Europe by Union sanction

17:17

to the China. It

17:21

was not good enough. You know, just a

17:23

sanctions and China didn't say nothing

17:26

because the China need is

17:29

wasting money technology. And

17:32

the US leaders particularly killing

17:35

time also most of

17:37

some US leaders saying or China

17:39

if economically developed this

17:42

economic developed brain may be

17:44

political reform. Yes. Yes, but

17:48

China is economic developed China.

17:50

No, it's a good economic use. It is

17:53

this power and

17:55

example for other terrorism right?

17:57

China not impose it is a

17:59

third. regional regime, those are symbols.

18:01

No. China is model. I

18:05

went to the UN Human Rights

18:07

Council all meeting all the time.

18:10

Wow. No, it's more authoritarian

18:12

countries, more voice than democratic

18:14

countries, unfortunately. Human

18:17

Rights Council occupies such a country, lead

18:19

by China. Everyone is old.

18:22

China is great. So

18:25

this is a big responsibility,

18:28

lead by US and the

18:30

European country, and just

18:32

the wrong

18:35

interpretation of the CCP and

18:38

the temporary benefit, give

18:40

a lot of opportunity to China. Then,

18:43

no China CCP, not only threats Falun

18:45

Gong, we were to Hong Kong or

18:47

Tibetan. Today, CCP already

18:49

threat national sovereignty, United States.

18:52

National sororities are in neighboring

18:54

countries. threat was a global

18:57

democracy. Threat is a human

18:59

right. Yeah. Around

19:03

the 89, this is where,

19:07

by the way, the same day of the

19:09

Tiananmen Square Massacre was the same day of the

19:11

first post-communist democratic elections in

19:13

Poland. So Poland, your central European

19:15

countries went one way, China went

19:17

a different way. But

19:20

it's like the West or America

19:22

kind of got drunk on the

19:25

idea that we have the

19:27

best system and everybody will become like us. The

19:30

end of history was Francis Fukuyama's idea, right?

19:32

So there was a kind

19:34

of an ideological thing there too, but I

19:36

think the money is also important. Like

19:38

you said. So let's talk

19:41

about this. When

19:43

I read your book, the China Freedom Trap, I

19:46

go, my God, this is like a textbook. To

19:50

show how that could work, right? Because

19:53

basically the moment you went into

19:55

exile, as your problems

19:57

started, I mean, you know, one

19:59

big. problem left, I mean, you

20:01

left, which wasn't necessarily guaranteed. So

20:04

tell me about what happened once you

20:06

left. Well, once

20:09

I left from China, I left 1994. After I

20:11

left, of course, and the whole of my

20:15

family is suffering a

20:17

lot. And

20:19

my family is monitoring, watching, by

20:21

the Chinese police 24 hours.

20:25

All your traditions,

20:29

relatives, all the time visiting each other,

20:32

you know, and

20:35

show respect to the elderly people, this is

20:37

all tradition. And we

20:39

have a lot of relatives. But

20:42

anyone, all family friends, all

20:44

relatives visit my family, my

20:46

parents. Then next day

20:48

police and the decorate

20:50

them, question them, why are

20:53

you visiting? What

20:55

did you talk? Then people

20:58

scare, even relatives are scared to visit

21:00

my parents. So

21:04

we can say, is my parent, my

21:06

family is a late by

21:09

the society. Society. This

21:11

is the one thing here. For

21:14

me in the world,

21:17

yes, China put

21:19

my name to the Interpol, 1997. 1997

21:22

is nearly no one who is rigorous. What

21:27

is this problem? But

21:29

CCP is thinking so

21:33

long, so future, you

21:36

know. Maybe we have

21:38

to act, we have to stop at

21:41

the beginning. At that time, not exactly what we were

21:43

congress, what we were used congress. I

21:46

was the co-founder of World Use Congress. We

21:49

don't have money, we don't have

21:51

capacity, you know, all the

21:53

capacity is very low. Even

21:55

we don't have experience of

21:58

the UN or some international

22:01

advocacy, we are mostly doing

22:04

community work. Community

22:07

work, okay, sometimes we are

22:09

joining some international conference, corporate

22:11

Tibetan people, that's all. But

22:14

China, my name 1997, I didn't

22:16

know. First

22:20

time, 1999, that

22:23

time I had a refugee

22:25

status travel document. I was

22:27

not German citizen there because I came

22:29

to Germany's political asylum seeker. Yeah,

22:32

so I got

22:34

one invitation, one conference to

22:37

the United States. I

22:39

went to Frankfurt for US

22:41

general consent to his application. I

22:44

gave my passport, all documents, I'm

22:46

waiting. After

22:48

30, 40 months, the security guys

22:51

just came to me. Come on, come

22:53

on. I was surprised what

22:55

happened. My passport is inside, I have to wait.

22:58

No, no. And

23:00

Verooot took me, bought

23:03

from the US general consulate in Frankfurt.

23:06

I thought there is a German police car

23:08

waiting, you know. Yes, and the

23:10

German police, please, you

23:12

come to us to the police

23:15

station. Okay. And

23:17

one of my friends with me, he want to, he

23:19

means, no, no, you cannot take this police

23:22

car, you can separately give the address. He

23:25

talk with the police station. But

23:27

at the beginning, German police also make

23:30

jokes with me, or maybe

23:32

it's small misunderstood

23:35

or miscommunication. Right.

23:38

And they're asking me jokes. Did you

23:40

kill someone? I never imagined, all my

23:42

lifetime, I never eat any chicken, you

23:45

know. How can I kill the people? And,

23:48

well, joke. And they

23:51

are also searching

23:53

and talk some place, two,

23:57

three hours later, and, well.

24:00

They're normal, they're everything. Couple

24:03

of hours later, this police came

24:05

to me, shows one

24:08

papers, it is you, I look

24:11

at, it's my pictures. And

24:14

my name, in the paper,

24:16

my name of my

24:18

parents, I dress my hometown. Well,

24:21

saying, huh, this is

24:23

you, I scared. And they say,

24:26

I couldn't say it's me, I, oh, looks

24:28

like me, I told him. If

24:31

this guy you are, you will be arrested today. And

24:34

just, if I can jump in, because this

24:37

paper that you were looking at was an

24:39

Interpol red notice. Sometimes I

24:41

didn't know what the Interpol red note was, you

24:43

know? Yeah. Just show something, then

24:45

police tell me, you have arrested around

24:47

by the Interpol. Then I was shocked,

24:49

yeah. And

24:52

I called my lawyer, immediately, and

24:55

she talked, well,

24:58

and I was thinking, huh, China's

25:01

government, and they did such a dirty

25:03

game against me. I

25:05

was thinking, oh, how many years, because police told me, if this

25:08

guy you are, you will be arrested. You know what I told

25:10

me, how many years I

25:12

will stay in the jail. Okay, I'm ready to

25:14

stay in the jail in Germany, but, and

25:17

if they send me back, it's really to

25:19

China, what should I do? Well, I was

25:21

thinking, this all, very short time, and

25:25

police, attitude was changed after that, before

25:27

it make joke with me, then, okay,

25:30

then I said, can I

25:33

go toilet? The police accompanied with me, you

25:35

know? Before that, okay, toilet

25:37

is there, show me. Then, okay, then

25:39

I thought, seriously, then

25:43

up to maybe more than five or six

25:45

hours later, and the police came to say,

25:47

okay, you are political, other element seeker, you

25:49

was the student's

25:51

leader. They got all

25:53

my interview tickets, everything, they collected all

25:55

the information about me, and

25:58

they say, okay, you are, asylum

26:00

seeker is accepted by Germany, so

26:02

you will be protected. According

26:04

to German law, international law, you

26:07

will not be happening in the

26:09

border, Europe

26:12

by Union, no problem. If you will go to the

26:14

United States, maybe you will be arrested in

26:16

the border, but should not

26:19

be sent to the China, sent to Germany. But

26:21

you extremely careful, don't

26:24

travel, and the

26:26

Asia country, and the Central Asia,

26:28

any country which has special treatment

26:31

with China. Right. Wow,

26:33

okay, I saw, wow. And

26:36

I just want to mention, these

26:38

Interpol Red Notices, these are for

26:40

serious criminals. It is. Right,

26:42

because this is one of the worst designations.

26:44

The idea is to track down transnational

26:47

criminals, actually, right? Yes, it

26:49

is. It is the, yes,

26:51

criminal, for example, human

26:54

trafficking, or a

26:56

dragon, or kill someone, or

26:59

money laundering, and such kind

27:01

of issue. This is, well,

27:04

so then I told the

27:06

police, oh, I didn't know I'm such

27:08

a big criminal, you know, then

27:11

I told my lawyer, told the lawyer, he said,

27:13

it's no problem, it's Germany. You

27:15

will be protected, it's a refugee law. Okay,

27:19

this I know, actually, this

27:22

arrested warand is issued in

27:24

1997, but I learned

27:26

after two years later, 1999. Okay.

27:29

This is first step, you know? So, since then,

27:32

that time, China didn't blame me as

27:34

a terrorist, because China's government

27:36

didn't use the terrorist's term to

27:38

the Uyghur movement until September

27:41

11 terrorist attack, two years and a one,

27:43

you know? Blame, that's why

27:45

China, at the beginning, blamed me as a killer, established

27:49

criminal gun, that's why. And

27:52

the rest of the Uyghur movements, that time,

27:54

China blamed is a religious fundamentalist or

27:58

separatist, this is the most. come

28:00

on blame, labeled to the Uyghur. But

28:02

at September 11, terrorist attack,

28:05

Chinese government immediately changed language

28:07

because we are Muslim, very

28:10

easy, label how it

28:12

is a perfect opportunity to crack down

28:14

the Uyghur. Chinese government immediately,

28:17

wow, we are victim of terrorism. We

28:19

were a terrorist, no? Then

28:22

2003, Chinese

28:24

government issues official list. Four

28:27

Uyghur organization in exile, as

28:30

a terrorist officially. Chinese

28:34

public, minister of public, Kung

28:36

An Bu, Pap Shukran,

28:39

well, my name is number three. Then

28:43

China, after that, blame me as

28:45

a terrorist, change the

28:47

interpretive. I

28:49

was being a terrorist after

28:52

nine years later because I left China 1994.

28:58

This terrorist attack is in Europe

29:00

happening 2001. China

29:02

2003 and the issues list and

29:05

the same, oh, Dokun doing some

29:08

terrorist activism in China. I

29:11

already left China nine years ago, but

29:13

China, believe me. So this

29:15

blame and really in fact, a

29:18

lot to my personal

29:20

life, family life, you know? So

29:23

if in, to some UN comes, oh,

29:26

background check, I

29:28

couldn't get accreditation, you know? A

29:31

lot of international India also

29:33

very avoided, very carefully to

29:36

touching to us. And

29:40

also, well, really,

29:42

I really, activity level, organization

29:44

level, we had a

29:46

lot hard time that time. And

29:49

today also mentioned in the book, and

29:52

you heard, and in fact, my

29:54

family, my children,

29:57

my son was born in Germany. He

30:00

never visit in this through customer

30:02

hometown My daughter was born. In

30:05

In In A in Beijing Actually

30:08

because my my wife woke is

30:10

beginning when I left. Side.

30:12

The Ninth and Ninety Four that time my wife.

30:15

Pregnant for my it's a daughter

30:17

so on the have most oft

30:19

i lift. Six. Months

30:21

or more than find the hot mostly done.

30:23

I got. My

30:26

baby. My. Daughter she was one

30:28

I saw first time my daughter's

30:30

run august of I brought to

30:33

the Germany. Sauce. And.

30:37

Know. Is. Everybody always illusory.

30:39

Schwab this but ten fifteen years ago

30:41

my trojan was as small as he

30:44

didn't tell me as long enough was

30:46

just a couple of years ago my

30:48

son my daughter see them as if

30:51

the other chat since. The know

30:53

father know I'm proud of you. But.

30:57

Ten. Years ago. Even Five Six years

30:59

ago. I hate you. Because

31:02

these. Had faced a

31:04

lot of discriminated is the latest

31:07

mice classmate school me because people

31:09

checked. Molson. He

31:11

saw you see that he saw Attila

31:13

Isa. To for is your

31:15

father. He is all yours.

31:18

Son. Or daughter is still

31:20

with your father a terrorist my

31:22

children couldn't explain mean you know

31:25

sprint yeah it is he didn't

31:27

tell is up to. Subsidize.

31:31

Yacht since that time know why

31:33

we are not. A good

31:35

dog and the A is a

31:37

short of that. Normal people. Why

31:39

I'm the Joel Song about that?

31:42

It was the One Theorist Yes,

31:44

Salt the Know. Zits much was in

31:46

the citizens of of friends. Your

31:49

what I was given some time is is

31:51

in that he is a teacher or for

31:53

this comedian. i didn't know

31:55

that justice that love to see four years

31:57

ago the us hit them that tell us

32:00

you know what because I criticize to

32:02

them look why you

32:04

don't do demonstration why you don't actively

32:06

join in the or is

32:08

activism and they say look

32:10

can you listen to us yes they

32:12

had such a difficult time that time

32:14

we couldn't tell you incredible yeah and

32:16

they were quiet they didn't yeah anything

32:18

it is instance you cannot defend themselves

32:21

nobody listen to them so

32:23

this is not only effect

32:25

or organization level this red

32:28

notes effect family and

32:30

daily life everything yeah this

32:32

is I mean basically it's

32:34

the weaponization of the international

32:37

system exactly persecute yes yes

32:39

yes China misuse interpol not

32:41

only China several authoritarian country

32:43

today Russia Iran some country

32:46

is the use of interpol

32:49

so China perfectly with

32:51

it yeah you

32:53

know I just want to mention one more

32:55

thing you know not long after it took

32:57

like 21 years for that red notice if

32:59

I understand it to be lifted finally but

33:02

when it was lifted there was at the

33:04

time actually the head of interpol was Chinese

33:06

now wait a sec this is I

33:09

still have trouble saying this because it's

33:11

sort of a mind

33:13

blow your mind idea right that

33:16

this totalitarian dictatorship

33:20

put up the head of interpol of

33:22

the international police body it was

33:25

run by them yes right but soon

33:27

after your red notice was lifted that

33:29

head of interpol went to China and

33:32

was frankly never heard from again yes

33:34

which is again crazy right he was

33:36

still the head of interpol yes and

33:38

he disappears and no one knows what

33:41

happened I mean later we

33:43

learn learn what happens but that's itself

33:45

is a crazy story right yes that's

33:47

right time to time and I talked

33:50

some conference saying is actually in

33:52

mongong way he wanted arrested me

33:54

but no he's a year I'm

33:56

free man yes this is the

34:00

I mean, they said that he was corrupt, right?

34:03

But that can mean anything over there, as

34:05

we know, right? Because you were marked as

34:07

a terrorist. Yes.

34:12

Yeah, after Meng Hongwei disappeared

34:14

and the jail, and some

34:17

media also write something, or

34:19

because he couldn't stop my

34:22

inter-poller, not what's cancelled, as a

34:25

prison, then the Chinese government cannot

34:28

tolerance him. This is the reason

34:30

why Meng Hongwei was arrested. Maybe,

34:33

I don't know. Maybe. That's

34:35

interesting. This is the one reason, maybe, I don't

34:37

know, to be honest. But, yeah,

34:40

it is true. And

34:42

because, of course, inter-poll,

34:47

it is a big shame, you know. It is

34:49

such a huge organization, it is a prison from

34:52

China. Yes. One

34:54

of the authoritarian countries. It

34:56

is unacceptable. So, not

35:00

only inter-poll, it is an

35:02

example, it is quite a lot

35:04

of international organizations that are very corrupted. You

35:07

know, there were these, you know,

35:09

what they called Chinese police stations,

35:11

right? But Chinese human rights defenders

35:13

were exposing them. We knew about them as

35:16

well. Actually,

35:18

in many countries, these things exist.

35:20

So, it's basically kind of a

35:22

partnership with Chinese police,

35:25

Chinese state security and the local police. But

35:27

in some cases, in many cases, it's in

35:29

liberal democracies, right? What do

35:31

you think about this practice of pairing, you

35:33

know, in some cases, there's even paired

35:36

patrols in tourist areas, these

35:38

kinds of things. What do you

35:40

think of this, you know? China

35:42

is a very perfectly misused, is

35:44

a democratic country, and

35:47

liberal, the freedom of expression.

35:49

This is misused in the democratic system, this

35:51

rule of law, you know. This

35:53

is, as you said, more

35:55

than 100 police

35:57

stations. talking

36:00

at the beginning. It was not new for

36:02

us. Yes, we didn't

36:04

say it's a Chinese police station, but

36:07

we say Chinese long-arm

36:09

transnational reparation is coming

36:11

to Germany. Oh,

36:14

15 years ago. We know that

36:16

because Chinese police came

36:18

like businessmen, came into the

36:22

Munich, meet

36:24

some members of the community, offer

36:27

cash to them, and

36:29

offer to the whole. You can travel to the

36:31

East Turkistan, you can make business. Yes,

36:35

you bring the singers up

36:37

to your soul, then you

36:39

can pay this money. So

36:42

this started many, many years

36:44

ago. We reported to

36:46

the German police, they

36:48

are not really taking care of us

36:50

on the sphere. Oh, okay, just listening

36:53

to us. Were they trying to lure

36:55

people back or were they trying to

36:57

compromise people? What was the plan there?

36:59

Oh, different. Yes, sometimes the Chinese police

37:02

is coming, as

37:05

I say, other businessmen status,

37:07

you know, and the youth

37:09

make friends, slowly, oh,

37:11

okay, then later, oh, you can

37:13

make a business. And

37:15

sometimes it's really police and they sweat to

37:18

the huh, you have to stop silence, you

37:20

have to cooperate with us. Other

37:22

way, because most of some of your family is

37:24

a, a, a, a, a hostage, hostage,

37:27

you know, so, and if you don't

37:29

cooperate with us, you have to think

37:31

of your family member. Right. Yeah, then

37:33

recognize this, then they cooperate.

37:36

Yes. Dokken, if I might mention, since

37:39

we're talking about family, I do want to

37:41

mention someone that's very important, which is your

37:43

mother. And, you

37:45

know, your mother, you

37:47

know, God bless her because

37:49

she supported you

37:51

all the way through it, I think knowing

37:55

what the risks were of doing that.

37:57

So just tell me a little bit about her because you

37:59

say, you say, she was the

38:01

most important person for you,

38:03

right? Yes, yeah. My mother

38:05

died in the concentration of

38:07

fishing camp. 78

38:10

years old that time, you know. Well,

38:13

she was not activist. She was

38:15

not politician. She was just a horsewife,

38:17

but brave woman. When

38:21

I was starting a pro-democracy movement

38:23

in the East Turkistan in 1988,

38:25

I was kick-off from the university.

38:27

That time, some students in Krikozovirum

38:30

University looked like no future. You

38:32

report, oh, maybe

38:34

this person is no future. Not

38:37

time, but my mom and

38:39

support me. Yeah, you are my son. I

38:41

support you. You didn't know. So

38:45

how many mother can encourage

38:47

the son? This is the question. But

38:50

my mother encouraged me, not like my

38:52

family members. If that time, when

38:54

I kick off from university, she

38:56

can angry for me. Oh,

38:59

you are a student. You have to

39:01

silent. You have to study. Why make

39:03

such trouble? She

39:05

can angry with me, you know. And

39:08

because there is that time

39:11

no company, private company, I

39:14

couldn't find job. If my

39:16

parents not support me, well,

39:18

I had really difficult situations that time. My

39:22

family, particularly my mother, and

39:24

support me. Yes. Then

39:29

after I left, also, as I

39:31

said, I suffered a lot, monitored

39:33

24 hours, isolated, we were community

39:35

as well from the relatives. She

39:38

never complained on me, you

39:40

know. So finally,

39:42

and I don't

39:45

know exactly, last telephone communication, my mother

39:47

is middle of April 2017. It

39:51

was last time I talked to her. And

39:54

even 2003, Chinese government blaming

39:57

terrorists, Chinese CCTV,

39:59

broadcast. my pictures, every

40:01

day, and also police came into my

40:04

home and your son is a

40:06

terrorist, you have to denounce him and

40:09

we captured, arrested him,

40:11

bring justice to China. She said, okay,

40:13

you can do it. You can

40:15

do it. That time also

40:17

I called her. She speak,

40:20

with me, but 2017, last

40:22

time April, she told

40:24

me, please don't call me anymore.

40:27

Then I realized the whole

40:30

service, then disappeared, then

40:33

after one year later, I learned

40:35

from Radio Free Asia, Muslim

40:37

man, I learned from Radio Free

40:39

Asia, my mother died in the

40:41

concentration camp. They took

40:43

a 78 year old woman and put her in that camp. Yes,

40:49

yes. You

40:51

know, this

40:56

is part of this reality that we

40:59

don't often talk about. It's

41:02

like the way that the families

41:05

of the activists or people

41:07

who are marked have to deal with

41:09

it. I'll give you this example. It's

41:11

not just that you're called terrorists on

41:13

the Red Notice and you have to

41:15

deal with police and you have to

41:17

go to the borders. I still want

41:19

to talk about that, these different border

41:21

situations that you encountered, because of this

41:23

and other things. But in

41:26

China, they

41:28

broadcast that, they advertise

41:30

that, and

41:32

they use you as a kind

41:35

of tool to scare everybody else. And

41:38

of course, they focus on the family. So just

41:40

tell me more about that. Well,

41:43

China, as I said, used

41:46

the family member hostage, you

41:48

know, and all Uyghurs maybe

41:51

is the same institution as

41:53

Tibetan, maybe Falun Gong, all,

41:56

and used hostage family

41:58

member and trying to scare them. silent to

42:00

them and not only

42:02

silent is the corporate is

42:05

the Chinese government. Yeah. So

42:07

Chinese government and before 2016

42:10

Uyghur community who already

42:12

got US citizen

42:14

or German citizen or some other

42:16

citizen obviously got the visa to

42:18

travel to China visiting

42:21

family member but yeah landed

42:26

before receiving a family member police

42:28

security service receiving them brought

42:30

to the so-called hotel drinking

42:34

tea you know offer tea

42:37

and the threat to them are welcome

42:40

if you really want to visit

42:42

and enjoy with your family

42:44

this condition you have

42:46

to cooperate with us you

42:49

know if you're not cooperated

42:51

with us you cannot stay

42:54

and it can

42:56

deport with you and also your

42:58

family member you have to think of this well

43:01

that people some of them after

43:03

return and they reported us

43:06

this but most

43:09

of them didn't report so that's why very

43:11

difficult who we continue with

43:13

the Chinese government right yes

43:16

and even before getting visa

43:19

and if your visa application to China

43:22

general consulate or Chinese vision they're

43:25

also asking several questions you

43:28

know and asking you

43:30

cooperate with them provide

43:32

information collected information what we will

43:34

Congress we will community provide to

43:36

them and who

43:38

is not corporate and

43:41

the donkey visa so it

43:43

is the one tactic of China and sometimes

43:45

you get visa I couldn't get and

43:48

next day or the next month I got

43:50

visa you cannot and ho then

43:52

the among them will comment oh look she

43:55

got a visa she's activist

43:58

but oh maybe she is must

44:00

be cooperating. Then let's trust

44:02

each other. Who

44:05

trusts whom? This is the issue. 100%.

44:08

Yeah. This is one tactic

44:11

of China. Maybe China doing is

44:13

some other group also, not

44:15

all the among the Uyghurs. Yeah. Right.

44:18

I've talked about this with a number

44:20

of people involved in China

44:22

human rights issues because of whether they're

44:24

from the Tibetan community or the Uyghur

44:26

community or the Falun Gong community or

44:29

the Hong Konger, you know, Hong Kong

44:31

dissident community. There's always

44:33

this attempt to break the

44:36

communities from the inside by

44:38

co-opting people, by using these pressure tactics, by

44:40

doing a, this was very interesting that you

44:42

said, by sort of making people doubt each

44:44

other in very kind of sneaky ways. Like

44:47

maybe the person is innocent, but they'll get

44:49

the visa this time, but now they're going

44:51

to be suspected. Anyway, you get, you

44:53

know, this better than I do. I

44:56

don't need to, but for

44:58

our viewers, for a

45:00

lot of people in that have grown up for

45:02

the most of their life and free

45:05

liberal democracies, it can be hard to imagine.

45:08

You know, like, you know, I

45:10

would argue that in recent years, you know,

45:12

we, there was this imagination that

45:14

we're going to change China by

45:16

investing so much. That was the

45:18

official line, right? For so many

45:20

years. Yes. And I like

45:24

to say this because I think it's important. I think

45:26

it happened in the other direction. You

45:29

know, it's like we learned all the wrong lessons.

45:31

Yes, it is. Right. So

45:33

it is, it is very, this is a very

45:35

important point, you know, this is as I, at

45:37

the beginning, I say it is a US government

45:40

and also the visiting government, we

45:42

say generally is a European, they

45:44

have a huge responsibility for this

45:46

stuff, you know, because, because

45:50

we are wrong, imagine it in

45:52

the economic develop. And

45:55

they are saying via, via

45:57

not only in poor or

46:00

technology, we impose a democratic

46:02

system and we

46:04

can export a democratic system to China.

46:08

Wrong! We don't understand CCP mentality.

46:10

You know? We don't understand CCP

46:13

mentality. Well, but no, the

46:15

reality, we warn them.

46:18

20 years ago, we were no. Even some

46:20

Chinese democratic movement also warn them. Is

46:23

the government? No, it is wrong. Even if

46:25

China joins

46:28

the WTO, it is the wrong

46:31

decision. I

46:33

know some Chinese democratic

46:35

friends, for example, Beijing

46:38

Xin also opposes this time. No,

46:40

it's wrong. China

46:43

should not be members of WTO, all

46:45

the trade organizations. But this

46:48

government is saying no. Then, China

46:51

uses all. Then, no,

46:54

it's China. We have seen all. This

46:57

is the threat in even

46:59

the United States today. It's Europe, all

47:01

countries. They are

47:03

not just export

47:07

money, waste of money, waste of

47:09

technology. China

47:12

never accepts the value. Well,

47:14

right, exactly. And this is the thing

47:17

that I find the most pernicious

47:20

or problematic, because

47:22

they use these different techniques

47:24

like the legal warfare, like

47:27

the security warfare like we've been discussing,

47:29

like using a red notice or something

47:31

like this. This is just one example.

47:33

But the concept is you

47:36

use the tools of

47:38

the free and democratic societies

47:40

against them. You

47:42

weaponize them. You go to court.

47:44

You go to the WTO. You get access.

47:46

But then you don't have to follow the

47:48

rules. And what happens to you? Well, nothing,

47:51

apparently, for 20 years. No,

47:53

China is trying to change international order.

47:57

Want to change international law, for example. normal

48:00

human rights system or

48:03

we provide food, one in

48:05

four billion people

48:08

provide clothes, provide

48:11

food, this is the example,

48:13

this is the good model

48:15

for the human rights. Well,

48:22

we were speaking with Ambassador

48:25

Kelly Currie earlier and one of

48:27

the things she said was that

48:31

there was this moment at

48:33

the UN where the Chinese

48:35

delegation decided they were trying to

48:38

change basically what human rights were

48:40

in the first place, where they

48:42

get to kind of dictate. They're

48:45

not sort of inalienable anymore, so

48:47

to speak, right? It's this constant

48:49

attempt to subvert that

48:51

system. One of the things we talked

48:54

about today earlier as well was how

48:56

deeply the financial

48:59

relationships are. It's not

49:01

just America, not just Wall Street, but

49:03

again, many, many liberal

49:05

democracies, right? Especially the big economies

49:07

in the world. In Europe, Germany would

49:10

be a good example, right? How

49:12

much did we in these

49:15

three countries start adopting the

49:17

Chinese Communist Party

49:19

values and doing our work? I

49:23

struggle with this as I look at the

49:25

world. Well,

49:27

you know, and one

49:29

thing I would like to mention today

49:32

from the Uyghur perspective, most

49:35

of some countries and

49:38

even some democratic

49:41

countries is

49:44

just an evaluated Uyghur issue is

49:48

the human rights framework. It

49:50

is wrong. Yes. Human

49:53

rights orientation exists everywhere.

49:55

So that's why if you

49:57

just think of a human rights issue or something, not

50:00

like. The event is a human rights

50:02

problem exists in the United States, Europe,

50:05

Germany, Africa,

50:07

all over the world. But level,

50:09

only level is a bit different.

50:13

And that's why this is

50:17

the good excuse for

50:19

the company. You know, it's

50:22

a business entity, yes. It's a human

50:24

rights issue, human rights problem exists in

50:26

every country. This is the human rights,

50:28

it's another issue, business is another issue,

50:30

yes. This is a good

50:32

excuse for them. But the

50:35

Uyghurs today, Chinese Communist Party, commit

50:37

genocide against Uyghurs, you know. UN

50:40

report, it is UN report

50:42

saying it is a crime against humanity,

50:45

Chinese government. It's crime against

50:47

humanity, it is not simple term, it

50:49

is, you know. Genocide

50:51

with Uyghur tribunal within 18

50:54

months collected 100,000 page

50:56

document, more than 500 papers

50:58

testimony. And 2021 is December 9, and

51:00

Uyghur tribunal

51:06

make judgment saying it's Chinese

51:08

government commit, Uyghur against Uyghur,

51:11

against genocide and crime against

51:13

humanity and torture. So

51:15

far 10 national parliament and

51:18

adopted Uyghur genocide motions. US

51:22

government and US

51:24

congress also and

51:27

the declaration Uyghur genocide. So

51:30

European parliament adopted possible

51:32

genocide and crime against humanity. So

51:36

it is meant, this is not simple human

51:38

rights violation. It

51:40

is a crime, according to the international

51:42

law. So business

51:45

as usual should not be and

51:49

running, no. It is not correct

51:51

time business as usual. So

51:56

every company, every country should

51:58

have legal order. obligation to

52:01

stop on going to genocide. After

52:03

Holocaust, 75 years ago, the genocide

52:05

was taking

52:09

place and the neighbor again,

52:11

world leader promised never again, but

52:14

it's never again happening again today. As

52:18

I know, more than 150

52:20

countries signed international convention

52:24

against genocide.

52:29

All these countries have legal obligation.

52:33

That's why I'm thinking, if

52:35

you're just talking about the criminal rights

52:37

issue or business, you could

52:40

exclusive to the continuing running business,

52:43

but it is the CCP and commit genocide crime

52:45

against the

52:48

Germans. Then this concept says the country

52:51

should not have a right to big

52:53

business with China. Stop business. In

52:56

Germany, we are doing,

52:58

saying all the time, Volkswagen for

53:00

example. Volkswagen

53:02

is astonishing because Volkswagen

53:05

was also involved

53:07

in another, back in the

53:11

1930s and 40s, was also

53:13

after all the German company,

53:15

right? Yes, they have complexities

53:18

in Nazi regime and corporate is

53:20

Nazi regime. Today, corporate CCP, CCP

53:22

regime. They're saying, oh, we're sorry.

53:25

If you're so sorry, then you should

53:28

not be corporate. You're not repeated same

53:30

mistake, same crime. But

53:33

unfortunately, in the countries

53:35

of continuing to make businesses, China, creating

53:39

some excuse, but good thing is at

53:41

least the US Congress adopted

53:43

the U.S. Fostable Prevention Act.

53:46

Our project from Mr. So

54:02

the CCP line on this

54:04

and a lot of people that maybe

54:07

even with some good reasons distrust the

54:09

United States will say,

54:12

well these are genocides or whatever,

54:14

these are political designations because it's

54:16

convenient for the US and so

54:18

forth. So there's a little bit

54:20

on the inside to get this

54:23

genocide designation, it was

54:26

unbelievably difficult, knowing

54:28

a little bit of the internal

54:30

imagination, knowing the insane amount of resistance

54:32

that it's got. I mean the whole

54:34

point of this kind of designation is

54:36

because it requires my

54:39

law some kind of a

54:41

reaction because this is supposed to be the worst

54:43

thing that human beings do to

54:45

each other and we don't want to support

54:47

that. But somehow this is what I'm

54:49

talking about when it comes in terms of our

54:52

values. Back in

54:54

1945 we said never again and we

54:56

all agreed this is terrible, we should never

54:58

let it happen. But today

55:01

somehow this

55:03

isn't the only genocide but

55:06

it's official yet in many

55:08

ways, especially in the last few years, it's

55:11

been business as usual. I

55:13

think that says something about our values.

55:15

Somehow we've changed too.

55:18

And my

55:24

question is, is it because

55:26

of this engagement that we've been changed? Yes,

55:30

and we should warn them

55:33

from our experience to the lawmaker, government.

55:35

So we remind them, we

55:38

push them, we have a lot

55:40

of responsibility in civil society.

55:42

Now it's 460 international human

55:56

rights organizations, labor unions, and the

55:59

civil society. society coming together, established

56:02

in the Uyghur First Labour Coalition. It

56:05

is a good step.

56:08

And they are working together, they are working

56:10

together, and they are pushed

56:12

to the government and in the business entity.

56:16

And the business

56:19

remove, for example, one of

56:21

the German companies, bust, chemical

56:24

company. That's right. Last

56:26

month is announced because, and

56:28

the media, we have to use the

56:30

power of the media, CDF, or the

56:33

German media, publishing. How

56:35

is bust corporate with the

56:37

CCP and for the concentration

56:39

camp? But we

56:41

talking to them, since the money

56:43

is, they refuse. But

56:45

after that, and finally, they

56:48

are, how can we make mistakes, then make

56:51

announcement to those. Another robot

56:53

company also removed. It's a good

56:55

step. And H. Und M is

56:59

a shividish company also

57:01

stopped buying the cotton because globally,

57:05

25% cotton textile

57:07

coming from Uyghur First Labour. Yes,

57:10

globally, 85% cotton

57:12

in China from Uyghur First Labour.

57:16

Adrazans, Laura Murphy, a

57:19

lot of respectful scholars,

57:24

use the Chinese results and

57:27

made a report. So

57:29

we asking some

57:32

company, so some is, and

57:34

remove and create business in China.

57:37

It's a good step, good step, but it's not

57:40

good enough. Artless,

57:42

7,700 international brand

57:46

have a direct link

57:48

with Uyghur First Labour.

57:55

Among them, very few of them is

57:57

stock business. most

58:00

of them continue in business. So that's why

58:02

we continue. But this is a good

58:04

example. We have seen

58:06

some power of the coalition. We have

58:08

seen some power of the

58:11

coalition and the cooperation. It's

58:13

interesting that you say this, because

58:15

on the one hand, this kind

58:17

of showcases how big the issue

58:19

is. On the other hand,

58:21

it also showcases that something

58:24

can be done, significant things have

58:26

changed. And it happens

58:29

when people like your mother

58:32

said, persevere and keep going.

58:35

I asked you a question during

58:37

this recent event, your book

58:40

launch at the NED. And

58:42

you had a

58:45

very passionate response. We

58:47

were talking about transnational oppression, a specific

58:49

recent example. And you said,

58:51

you've got to fight for it. Yeah.

58:55

So no, all

58:57

work is not easy, you know, because

58:59

we are fighting very powerful enemy.

59:02

Yeah. And no, we

59:06

need breath and we don't

59:09

have a capacity, you know, but

59:13

we believe justice

59:16

should be felt in the end.

59:19

China is powerful. China has

59:22

money, use diplomatic power,

59:25

economic power, trying to manipulate the

59:28

UN system, international

59:30

system and trying

59:33

to cooperate with some

59:35

other authoritarian country, comfort to

59:37

the Western democracy. So

59:40

it's not easy. Even country

59:42

also, oh, sorry,

59:44

and they cannot speak against China. But

59:47

we have done this.

59:49

We will go to that. And while I'm

59:51

going on Congress, you

59:53

speak. So it is

59:55

not easy. It is

59:57

a gigant. It's a big enemy.

1:00:00

every country, every people are scared for

1:00:03

this. So that's why we

1:00:05

must be very brave. We

1:00:07

have to push the government, you know.

1:00:11

It is necessary. If you

1:00:13

give up, it is the wish of

1:00:15

the CCP. It is the wish.

1:00:18

Give up, lost hope, then

1:00:21

it is the festival for China.

1:00:24

Oh, I won. So that's why

1:00:28

we believe we should believe

1:00:30

all cause. I believe. I

1:00:33

told you today, there's a book

1:00:35

launch event. No,

1:00:37

2006, I

1:00:40

came to the United States with

1:00:43

a German passport. I

1:00:45

was stopped. Washington,

1:00:47

then I sent down less airport. Up

1:00:52

23 hours later, she sent

1:00:54

me to Germany. I

1:00:58

was so sad. I

1:01:00

was so disappointed because

1:01:04

me and the millions

1:01:06

of Uighurs and not only Uighur

1:01:08

entire world and whole trust

1:01:11

the U.S. democracy. But

1:01:15

that time, this

1:01:17

U.S. government trust CCP, blame

1:01:19

me. I didn't say terrorist

1:01:22

blame. They don't trust

1:01:24

me. I was disappointed. I sent me

1:01:26

to Germany. Well,

1:01:30

I was so disappointed, but I never

1:01:32

give up. We have to write. Finally,

1:01:35

up to seven years later, 2013, after I

1:01:38

deported, seven

1:01:42

years later, I got a 10 years

1:01:45

visa. When

1:01:48

I that time, oh, okay, if

1:01:50

I got angry, disappointed and

1:01:52

give up, I'm

1:01:55

not sitting here today. And

1:01:58

the inter-polar networks, you know. Interpol

1:02:00

is a big institution, I'm

1:02:02

powerless guys, how can I

1:02:04

fight in such a big

1:02:07

institution because China pay million

1:02:09

billion dollars to this institution?

1:02:13

If I say that something like, maybe

1:02:15

my retinol is over

1:02:18

my head still, but

1:02:20

I'm fighting, you know,

1:02:22

look, we're fighting, maybe

1:02:25

I can success. At that time I couldn't

1:02:27

imagine I could success, but

1:02:31

I have to it, I never give up. Then

1:02:34

finally my retinol was

1:02:37

delete, I suffered 21

1:02:39

years, but they delete. But

1:02:41

some of them, Uyghurs, I

1:02:44

know some who have retinol, they

1:02:47

didn't fight like me, they have

1:02:49

still Interpol retinol, I

1:02:51

know they are not criminal. No,

1:02:53

like me, like me, this

1:02:56

crime being Uyghurs, they are crime and the

1:02:59

joint and pro-democracy movements, they

1:03:01

criticize China, this name is

1:03:03

still in the Interpol, but

1:03:07

I'm fighting, searching

1:03:10

the opportunity, contacts

1:03:12

and asking the international support.

1:03:15

And finally I

1:03:19

could find good alliance, they

1:03:21

are educated not only at the beginning I'm

1:03:24

alone, but later quite a lot of people,

1:03:27

organizations helped me, then

1:03:30

we success. And they

1:03:33

said, in 2016 I was deported

1:03:35

as a criminal, but

1:03:37

seven years later, 2013, I begged for

1:03:41

the United States, I got human rights award,

1:03:45

freedom fighter like, and 2019 I got the

1:03:48

world's democracy award in the Capitol

1:03:50

Hill, I got Nancy policy from.

1:03:54

Yeah, this is the solution, this

1:03:56

is the example, so that's why

1:03:58

in my book, I

1:04:01

was trying to tell

1:04:03

the people, first, don't

1:04:06

trust CCP. Secondly,

1:04:09

don't give up. This

1:04:12

is a message, simple. Well, Dolkunisa, it's such

1:04:14

a pleasure to have had you on. Thank

1:04:16

you very much. Thank you, Haringmi. Thank you

1:04:19

all for joining Dolkunisa and Mia in this

1:04:21

episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host,

1:04:23

Jan Jekielek. Thank

1:04:32

you.